Speaker 1: Hey everyone, so good to be with you. Wes, it's awesome to be here with you, my friend. It is a good day, an exciting day as we start off on this new journey together. ⁓ we're actually joined by Kenzie James. She is representing the Chronicle here and she is the producer of this podcast. Kenzie, how are you doing today? I'm

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Speaker 3: I feel like it's all been behind the scenes for so long, so I'm really excited to actually be in the studio today.

Speaker 2: We've been building up to this for so long. It is it's hard to believe that it's already here. Before we get into our first segment, ⁓ I think we need to you know, add a little disclaimer that the opinions and reactions, especially those expressed by me and Marcus, these are ours alone and they do not reflect those opinions and views of the Christian Chronicle. The first segment that we really want to get into is we want to, you know

Marcus Stenson: Visit Heritage twenty one dot org slash chronicle. That's heritage twenty one dot org slash chronicle.

Wes McAdams: Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast, where we explore what's happening in Churches of Christ. I'm Wes McAdams and I'm here with Marcus Stenson to bring you the latest news and honest commentary. you want to hear stories about Churches of Christ, where we've been, where we're headed, and how God is working, this is podcast.

Speaker 2: The way that we start every service, we can't have a service without announcements. And Kenzie is bringing us the announcements, the news, the events, things that are going on in the world. Kenzie, what is what is happening right now that you think people need to be aware of?

Speaker 3: there is a lot happening right now. While it is the middle of July, for the listeners who attend Churches of Christ, you're probably either at church camp, you're on a mission trip, you're helping with VBS, or you've recently finished one of those three. Those are kind of the big summer highlights. And I know people who are on mission trips right now. I know Eric went and covered a VBS here at Edmond Church of Christ last week, just lots of stuff going on here in the office. We actually just finished press week and

Wes McAdams: If you'd like to hear more from me and Marcus, tune in to the Radically Christian podcast. It's available on YouTube or wherever you find your podcast.

Speaker 3: On Wednesday, we just sent off the July and August edition to the printers. So we are excited for those to be out in print to all of our readers. And if you guys are online, then you can go ahead and check out some of those stories that have already been published. For those of you who don't know, Praise and Harmony does regular recordings for albums. It helps teach church members learn how to sing their parts, because on churches, you're going to see those four-part harmonies. But a lot of times, people just sing the melody because they've never learned any of the other parts. So Eric and his family went out to become a part of that. And he is going to have a piece on that coming later this year. So excited to see what he learned from that. I heard a few clips and it sounded amazing. You just have hundreds of Christians gathered together singing and worshiping God. And it's truly great.

Speaker 2: I am so excited about what Praise and Harmony specifically is doing to encourage and reinvigorate a cappella singing, congregational singing within our congregations. I think it's so important that we hold on to that heritage because not only is it good and right.

Marcus Stenson: Thank you so much for joining us today. Please take a moment to like, subscribe, and review today's episode. If you have any additional comments, ideas, or suggestions, email us at podcast at Christian Chronicle.org. The Christian Chronicle Podcast is a production of the Christian Chronicle Incorporated. Please consider donating to this nonprofit ministry at Christian Chronicle.org slash donate and supporting our mission of informing, inspiring, and connecting churches of Christ around the world.

Speaker 2: But it is spiritually transformative. I think that's so important that we continue to practice and emphasize congregational singing within within our congregations.

Wes McAdams: The Christian Chronicle podcast started three and a half years ago. At that time, President Erik Tryggestad said that the idea formed because the staff wanted to produce something that focused on what the Chronicle does as and maybe a little bit because of the peer pressure from readers asking when a podcast would start. The first episode aired on January 10, 2023, with host BT Irwin interviewing the staff about the launch of the podcast and stories that they had recently published.

Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. For anyone listening who knows Harding, Downtown Church of Christ in Searcy does downtown singing on Sunday nights. We have anywhere from just a few hundred to upwards of a thousand just gathering on a Sunday night singing for an hour in the dark with the lights off and truly is one of my favorite times of worship.

Speaker 1: What a cool experience. If you've ever been in a moment or a situation like that, you know there is nothing like it. There is something uniquely beautiful and powerful about the way that we participate and worship together here in the churches of Christ. And I'm afraid that it's gotten a bad rap over the years. Like it's just been a really, really inadequate job of sharing with confidence what it actually represents.

Marcus Stenson: And in his time as host, BT recorded 159 episodes. When we recorded this episode, we didn't yet have the final times for the last two episodes. But if you listen to all of them, you've heard BT's voice for over 136 hours, 23 minutes, and seven seconds.

Speaker 1: And how powerful it actually is and how beautiful it actually is. It's it's a life-changing experience. And so I similarly agree. I I love what Praise and Harmony is doing. ⁓ and they seem to be growing at a at a rapid rate. And it's it's kind of cool because they have a very distinct style. When I go and visit a congregation, I can almost immediately tell, yeah, Praise and Harmony's been here. So it's always a lot of fun when that happens.

Marcus Stenson: He spent all of that time through churches of Christ around the world and a lot more behind the scenes with each guest learning about how God is working. He interviewed Wes and I in the last episode, and today it's our turn to interview him and turn the tables. BT, thanks for joining us.

Speaker 3: Calvin Cockrell did a story continuing in the Who Are We series called Christians Only or the Only Christians, approaching phrase that I'm sure you guys have heard as ministers, we've all heard in the Church of Christ that we think that we're the only ones going to heaven. So he did an informal online survey of 139 church leaders ⁓ his article really just presents what they shared and feedback from both sides of the argument of what do they think about this idea and just how it lines up.

BT Irwin: Hey, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be on this side of things for once.

Wes McAdams: Well, brother, we we so appreciate all of the work that you've done and we are excited to continue on that legacy and to continue to do this work that I do believe that it is important for the the churches of Christ. So why don't you tell us just a little bit about your story and how you got started with the launch of The Christian Chronicle podcast?

Speaker 3: with what the Bible says. It was just really interesting to read and definitely an important conversation for us to have.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I read that this week and I was really kind of surprised by some of the reactions, sometimes not so surprised. Marcus, I don't know if you read this yet or not, but but it some people took issue with the phrase Christians only.

BT Irwin: When my Dad retired at the end of 2020, ⁓ he'd been in congregational ministry for almost 50 years. And a couple after he retired, my mom called me up and said, "Do you have anything for your Dad to do? Because ⁓ he's not really cut out for retirement. He's just got the heebie jeebies, you know, he needs to do something."

Speaker 2: And some people took gr took issue with the not the only Christians and and the and then other people resonated with the entire phrase or said, Well, yes, it's good, but we we can't take it too far. We need to be careful about this, that or the other. It was really interesting to see the the very different opinions expressed around that very common phrase. I was a little bit surprised.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I b I was similarly surprised ⁓ at the fact that some folks would take issue at the front half of the statement because as time has gone on, it's been truncated and that's really the part that you hear most often now. And sometimes folks are surprised that it's actually connected to the back half. And so not surprised to see folks take issue there, but maybe the phrase has fallen out of our common vernacular for long enough folks are genuinely wrestling with that idea all over again. And so interesting article. I would recommend everyone check that out.

BT Irwin: And ⁓ I always wished that people in the pews could hear his wisdom ⁓ and hear the the inside story ⁓ of what life was like for him and what it was like for us, I asked Dad, "Hey," I said, "Why what if every Saturday morning we get together on Zoom ⁓ and I just ask you questions about your ministry life and ⁓ we can take those conversations and them a podcast?" Cause my Dad's passion ⁓ in retirement was he wanted to, he wanted to minister to ministers and congregational leaders. I I said, this is a way that you could do that. And

Speaker 1: If you just want to see how folks feel about that in today's

Speaker 2: My opinion would be that I do think that this is a helpful phrase. I think this is a great way. In fact, I've I've used this phrase many times myself. I do think that it shouldn't be interpreted to mean that just because we're saying we're not the only Christians doesn't mean that everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian. There are those that we would say, well, that's actually a heretical position, and those people claim to be Christians, but this does not reflect.

BT Irwin: might be a way to encourage young min ⁓ ministers who are coming up. And so ⁓ he said yeah, he he would give that a try. And ⁓ every morning we would get on get together on Zoom and ⁓ we planned you know, maybe just episodes total, but a couple of things happened. One is we just found that conversations would stretch really long.

Speaker 2: small O orthodoxy, like this is not what the the church has taught traditionally. This is not what the church is taught historically. This is not what scripture teaches. This is not aligned with the gospel. So just because we're saying and and I again I would say myself that I am a Christian only. I just want to be a Christian. I don't want to be a church of Christer. I don't want to, you know, have a hyphenated Christianity. I do just want to be a Christian. But I don't think that

BT Irwin: so kept adding episodes. The other thing that happened is maybe a few episodes in we found out that my Dad's cancer had come back. And this time doctors said your prognosis is it's poor. You're not likely to make it. And so ⁓ that really amped up the urgency and ⁓

Speaker 2: Those people who think like me or talk like me or attend a a building with the same sign on the outside are the only Christians in the world. But that's not to go so far as to say that anyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian. I think there are things that we have to believe and have to do in order to be followers of Jesus. So I understand some of the pushback, but I think we we have to let the phrase, I think, work the way that it was intended to to say that we

BT Irwin: we recorded the last episode, we caught up to the present and recorded the last episode with Dad, I think a month before he died, June 1, 2022. after funeral, and and getting back to normal I just I wanted some closure. I wanted a chance to talk about the experience of interviewing my dad and collecting all of his stories and wisdom

Speaker 2: don't need to take the position that we have exclusivity when it comes to the truth or that we're the only people that that know the truth.

Speaker 1: That's a good point that you bring out there. And that there's a nuance and there's there's a little bit of discernment that needs to be used. And an honest wrestling with this phrase and and the implications of it and where we fall on it each individually is actually probably really helpful because you will bump up against it eventually. And I'd rather be prepared to give that answer than not in a way that is actually accurately representing ⁓ who we are and what we believe and where we stand and where we see ourselves in relation to ⁓ broader family, so to speak.

BT Irwin: meant to me, but I didn't want to just turn on the mic and just start rambling. So I asked Bobby Ross, Jr. at the Christian Chronicle, said, "Would you host the last episode of this podcast?" It was called Minister in the Making. And and you ask the questions and don't tell me what you're going to ask. Just do it as a journalist So

Speaker 2: I I thought it would be appropriate if we had a scripture reading in our in our podcast episode. I I think that that there's a a passage that really comes to my mind when I think about what we're trying to do here with this podcast. And it's Acts chapter fourteen and verse twenty seven. It's after Paul returns from his first missionary journey and he gets back to Antioch, that that congregation that was I I like to say is the first

BT Irwin: after Bobby and I finished recording that last episode, and I won't forget it because I was actually in the church building where my Dad had been the minister for 23 years, Bobby said, "Hey, you know, we've been thinking about starting a podcast at the Christian Chronicle, and like for you to consider it." And I said, you know, do think I'm a professional podcaster or journalist? Because I'm not."

Speaker 2: truly multi-ethnic congregation. And Paul gets back from having gone on this missionary journey. And it says on arriving there, they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them and how he had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles or to the nations, the ethnos. And I I think that's exactly what we're trying to do, not just today, but but in our role here with the Christian Chronicle podcast.

BT Irwin: But agreed to pray about it and so we prayed and we thought and we planned ⁓ here we are.

Speaker 2: Is just reporting all that God is doing through his people throughout the world and how he is opening a door of faith to the nations. And we're celebrating now. I mean, there there will be times, of course, where we we sort of look and and we we learn lessons and say, well, this this probably isn't good or this isn't healthy. And we we try to push back or critique or offer our opinion or our view on different things.

Marcus Stenson: Well, it just doesn't escape me how cool that experience had to have been getting all of those stories from your dad and then watching God spin that into a larger ministry and effort ⁓ where you've been exposed to so many other incredible stories.

Speaker 2: But the primary thing I think we want to do is celebrate what God is doing and how He's opening doors of faith for the Gentiles, for us, for the nations to come to Jesus and surround the throne and and be part of the kingdom of God.

Speaker 1: Beautifully said, one of my favorite ⁓ instances as well. And I hope you don't mind as as we step into the potluck segment. I'm gonna eat right out of your dish. Like that, is this exactly what I would want to talk about today. Wes brought the good stuff. because one of the things that I'm I've actually been really encouraged by this summer, as we're getting ready to move back into into fall and a and a sense of normalcy and everyone gets back into a rhythm, there just appears to be a lot more dialogue happening.

Marcus Stenson: aside from the work that you did with your father, of course, What still resonates in your mind like it was yesterday?

Speaker 1: Out there in the wider COC world. And so I think this sort of factioned isolationism is kind of breaking down on the whole. And there are a lot of opinionated discussions happening. And I use the word dialogue intentionally because sometimes there are still debates. That has sort of been our hallmark and our trademark. But I'm talking about being encouraged by the willingness of people to really sit at the table and really dialogue with each other and figure out exactly.

BT Irwin: think did over 200 interviews with The Christian Chronicle. And my 50 year old brain is at the point now where occasionally someone will mention to me, "Hey, you interviewed me," and I forgot. I just have to say, ⁓ not because it wasn't memorable, but because it's all packed in there. ⁓ I I will say some of the most memorable interviews, ⁓ it's it's not interview itself, it's what happened around the interview that made it memorable. I had a a man on the show one time who

Speaker 1: why we believe what we believe, where we believe it, and what we ought to do about it and how we can strive for the bond of brotherhood and peace and unity together. And that's just been incredibly encouraging to me. And it strikes me with the scripture that you just read that that's exactly what's happening there. There is a dialogue about what is actually happening, what God is doing, and then they're reasoning together through that to see where God is moving and how he's moving. And they don't make any decisions until they actually hear from one another. And so

BT Irwin: we recorded ⁓ in something similar to what we we see here. we turned on the camera and ⁓ he did not have on a shirt. And okay, you know, no big deal. I'd I I'd say to the guests, "This is audio podcast, but our social media people like to have a a video clip that they can put on social media for the kids these days and maybe get them to come listen to the whole podcast." And he said, "Well, do you think I should put on my shirt?"

Speaker 1: If that's a spirit that we can help to cultivate and we can help to engender and we can help to to amplify, ⁓ then I I think there are only really, really positive developments in the future. So that's what I'm bringing, even though I ate it right out of your dish, Wes. I I hope that's okay. Like you can go back for seconds. I'm sure there's enough. ⁓

Speaker 2: I love it. I love it. And that's what we want to do with this potluck section is we want to have each of us that are on the podcast episode bring whatever it is that's on our heart, on our mind that really pertains to our theme or what we're trying to do in this episode and share that with each other. That's what a good potluck is. Everybody brings their own dish and and shares it with each other and and everything is.

BT Irwin: And I said, "Well, that's up to you." Because I thought, well, if he wants to do a a full interview without a shirt on and put it on social media, that's gonna blow up. So ⁓ but he got up and went and put on a shirt. and then we've had some really famous people on here and ⁓ of have just really been normal and down to earth. They turn on

Marcus Stenson: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Is made better because of all the sharing. And we want the audience to know that we want you to share in our potluck as well. We want you to in your thoughts and your comments and your questions. And we want you to bring your dish and we want to share that as well. So if you have anything that you would like to share in our next potluck, you can email us at podcast at Christian Chronicle.org. And we want you to be part of the potluck as well. Kenzie, I am excited ⁓ hear what you have to share with us.

BT Irwin: mic and the camera, they're sitting at their kitchen table or whatever. But the ones that have handlers and publicists have been really fascinating. We had one really, really famous guest who it was clear to me when he popped up into the studio, and this was all set up through his publicist. He did not know who I was. He didn't know what The Christian Chronicle was. He did not even know why he was there.

Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. Kind of going off of what Marcus said, just about like there being more dialogue. Members of the Churches of Christ talking together, I think that's one of the things that stood out to me the most last year about being an intern here. This one congregation in the middle of nowhere in America is talking about this. And then you have someone in Europe, across the world, talking about the exact same thing and addressing it and you don't even know it. So just to hear all of that and how God really is working in all these different places at the same time is really, really powerful.

BT Irwin: it was one of those things where, like, you have 15 minutes and no more. And so I had to burn up a few minutes explaining to him what this is all about. But he turned out to be a really good guest. There was another ⁓ really famous guest who on the screen, you know, we have the split screen right here, the three of us. His his publicist was very upset that.

Speaker 1: That's so exciting. Yeah. Yeah. When you see God tying threads together through the spirit and in two different places that are really unaware of each other. And sometimes that happens even within a congregation, but it's happening on a global scale. And ⁓ to be able to catch sort of a glimpse and a slice of that is really exciting for me. It's one of the reasons I'm thankful to be here. ⁓ you know, I want to echo Wes's sentiment. We we can't do the potluck all by ourselves. We want to have a real fellowship meal with you guys. So send us something good and ⁓ we might taste it on the air. It'll be great.

BT Irwin: my head was higher than his head on the split screen. So the way I'm looking at us right now is, you know, my my head is pretty close to the top of the frame. And then, you know, Wes and then Marcus, you're a little bit lower. we spent 10 minutes chairs and cameras until this guest was a little higher than my head ⁓ on the split screen. So things like that, things like that I don't forget. But as far as the interviews themselves, ⁓

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, one of the things that I've noticed this summer, it's really interesting how many congregations are doing summer series. We're we're doing one here at McDermott Road, and I get the opportunity to go and speak at other congregations summer series. And it's interesting how many of these congregations are doing a summer in the Psalms or they're doing some sort of a series on the Psalms. I

BT Irwin: this is a recent one. I interviewed Victor Glover twice. I just gotta say, it was so intimidating to interview an astronaut. Both times I was I was so nervous. And the thing about Victor ⁓ is he it's like this light this warmth comes off of him and passes through the ether and comes through the screen. And when you're with him, you just feel so comfortable.

Speaker 2: That was what we were doing here at McDermott Road. And then I went up to Lawton, Oklahoma yesterday at the Northwest congregation, and they were doing a series on the Psalms as well. And so it's interesting to see again how the spirit is tying different brothers and sisters around the country and around the world together and how we're studying some of the same things and thinking through some of the same things. It just reminds me how important and significant I think things like Wednesday night Bible study.

BT Irwin: was interview I did with two sisters, Jerry Blankenship and Mindy Lancaster. Some people may remember that story. Their their father allegedly murdered their mother and went to prison for life.

Speaker 2: How how how significant that can be. It's a tradition we've had for a long time. I think it probably started as a as a prayer meeting on Wednesday nights. I'm not really sure. But as long as I can remember, it's a very traditional thing, at least in the States, for us to gather on Wednesday nights and to study together. And I always tell the congregation here or wherever I am, thank you. I mean, of all the places that they could be and all the things that they could be doing in the middle of the week.

BT Irwin: And they grew up in a really rough environment after that. And then the story they told about how they came to faith and hope in Jesus Christ, and how the Lord transformed their lives, how the Lord transformed their father's life in prison, how they forgave their father, and then through them, this prison ministry started.

Speaker 2: They choose to come together with brothers and sisters. Sometimes, like here in the Metroplex, it's difficult. Man, it's it's tough. Seven o'clock on a Wednesday night to get here to the church building, to fight traffic, to to get through all the things, feed the kids, get get everybody back in the car. And then to be here is really significant. And to see that in some places, hundreds of people are gathering together to study in the middle of the week. The role that that plays in discipleship and helping to shape us and form us, spiritual formation, I think sometimes we take that for granted or we don't think about the significance of that. But I think it really is a testimony to the health and the strength of our fellowship that that's something that we continue to practice and continue to do. And it's something I I hope that we will always continue to do, things like that. It may change how we do it, when we do it, where we do it.

BT Irwin: it was such a powerful testimony. we recorded about four hours worth of material. ⁓ I I just couldn't stop listening to them tell their story. and then think my my my all-time favorite interview Is John Johnson. think it was December ⁓ 2023, maybe. And the title of the episode John Johnson is Santa Claus. He plays Santa Claus. And that's all I'm going to about that. But number one, I don't know if your parents ever took you to sit on Santa Santa's lap when you were kids. Okay.

Speaker 2: But the fact that we are taking time, not just on Sundays, but throughout the week, to disciple one another, to teach and encourage each other is so important.

Speaker 1: I gotta hard agree with that. And and and I don't know if it's just me, maybe you've you've kind of felt the same thing, Wes, or you, Kenzie. ⁓ I almost feel like, you know, the summer series, the midweek service, even things like VBS are sort of in a a resurgent mode right now. It seems like, you know, coming out of, you know, the isolation that we all went through, you know, in twenty twenty and beyond, there was a reevaluation of what are we doing with midweek services? What are we doing with Sunday evenings? What are we doing with VBS? Are they really serving the purpose that we want them to?

Marcus Stenson: ⁓ yeah. Yeah, we did.

BT Irwin: All right. And I don't know about you, but there was always like this low grade terror. So there was this anticipation that I'm going to meet Santa Claus. but I was also, you know, there was also this this terror. and ⁓ do remember what it was like as you were like approaching Santa Claus? It's just you and him, and you're walking up to him, and he's sitting on that like throne thing, and then you're in his lap. Okay. I felt way interviewing John Johnson.

Speaker 1: And many places moved off of them, switched things up. And I think probably in a lot of cases it was really good. But it's been really cool to see, no, there is something that is powerful and needed that is a blessing about the physical embodiment and presence of being in fellowship together. And that midweek, especially like you're talking about in the Metroplex, many churches are commuter churches. And so folks are driving and braving traffic on I-35. If you know anything about Texas, you know how big of a problem that is.

Marcus Stenson: Yeah, yeah.

BT Irwin: I it was like I was eight years old, and I had to keep reminding myself, you're 48, man. You're 48. Like he, you know, he looks like Santa Claus, he talks like Santa Claus. But the thing about that interview is the stories he told about this ministry of his,

Speaker 1: Just to be with their brothers and sisters. That is a big deal. And so I have loved, like you were talking about Kenzie earlier, seeing all of these summer programs blow up and folks sharing their photos of the elaborate VBS sets that they've put into production and all just loving on the next generation and loving on each other. It's it's a beautiful thing. So summertime has been super encouraging for me.

BT Irwin: they were miraculous. the the things that God did that he said I didn't expect it. I didn't know how. It surprised me as much as it surprised everyone else. But I saw God work through my ministry." And it was I believe in Christmas magic.

Speaker 2: Here at McDermott Road, when we when we re-gathered, there was a time when we didn't meet on Wednesday nights because of the pandemic. But when we started gathering again, the first Wednesday night back, we had a higher attendance that Wednesday night than we had the year before in on average. And so we were we we were already exceeding that number. People were eager. They were hungry. Speaking of potluck, they were hungry to come back.

Marcus Stenson: Yeah.

Wes McAdams: Marcus, I I've been podcasting now for well over a decade, but after listening to BT for just a few minutes, I feel like I haven't podcasted at all because I don't have any stories like that. Not a single time has anybody ever shown up without a shirt on for an interview. I have never once interviewed Santa Claus or an astronaut. BT, you've had you've had quite the illustrious podcasting podcasting career.

Speaker 2: And experience that in-person fellowship and that in-person discipleship and study together. Well, guys, this has been really fun. I'm excited to introduce the interview portion of our episode. If you've been listening to the Christian Chronicle podcast for a while, then the voice that you will hear next will not be a stranger to you. B.T. Irwin has been the host of this podcast for quite some time and has done tremendous work. And we get to talk to him about the work that he's done.

BT Irwin: Ha ha. Buckle up. Yeah. Buckle up. Your it's your turn now.

Marcus Stenson: Yeah, I well, I think I need to apparently call my publicist first and make sure that my head gets on the right level here. But That's for sharing all those stories with us, man. What a run. And what an incredible way to see God work in so many lives in so many different ways. That's super cool, man. Maybe we'll get to meet Santa Claus someday, Wes. Maybe.

Wes McAdams: Yeah. Right.

Speaker 2: and the importance of that, but also what he has learned and what he has experienced and some of his observation about churches of Christ. So I think everybody's gonna enjoy that interview and that'll be coming up next.

Wes McAdams: No doubt. I'm I'm gonna go check that one out. I can't believe I haven't listened to that one. BT, I've listened to a lot of the Christian Chronicle podcasts, and and I'm a big listener of podcasts. one of the beauties of this form of media and this form of ministry ⁓ is that we can have long form conversations where we can really get into some topics and think deeply about things maybe that we've never thought about before. I'm curious if there have been topics that you've discussed on the podcast that have really changed your perspective or your outlook or maybe even your theology on the way you think about this because of a conversation you had on the podcast.

BT Irwin: Wow, yeah. I mean, first of all, John Johnson made me believe in Santa Claus again. So there that. I got meet a lot of authors and thinkers and doers and read a of books But it's it's hard me to pick. what I tried to do is pay close attention to what what seem to be on everyone's and minds in in our congregations around the world. What are people thinking about? what are they probably talking about over lunch? And then how might we ⁓ how might we find a subject or guest that speaks into what's really on people's minds? you know, we we did a lot on Christian nationalism. Over the last three and a half years, A lot of people talking about that. And I ⁓ we had people Michael Byrd on the show and Brad East, ⁓ Richard Hughes, ⁓ Christina Littlefield, Brad East, I what I remember about interview that he thinks we should retire the term Christian nationalism because he made the case that it means different things to different people. we don't have a a unified epistemology of what that even means. And so to try to have a conversation about it is pointless if what I think of it is different from what you think of it. Is different from what someone else thinks of it. And so that was a that was a good interview because ⁓ got me thinking about epistemology. It got me thinking about the meaning of the words that we use. And sometimes we don't get very far in our conversations with people because we're not speaking the same language. Sometimes we need to start by ⁓ a term like Christian nationalism and find out what does it mean to you? What do you imagine when you hear hear that term? I I'm a history nerd, and so ⁓ Hughes and Christina Littlefield in particular, we talked a lot about the intertwining ⁓ of Church of Christ history here in the United States, along with the history of the United States itself, which I found really, really fascinating. The way that we in our Church of Christ tradition imagine scripture and think about scripture. and the way that we apply scripture to our lives is very influenced by where we've grown up. And I interviewing authors like that and scholars like that is an opportunity for the entire audience to take a step back from ⁓ what what we for granted and see it in a different light. Not to say that it's it's it's wrong necessarily, but to to To examine ourselves from outside our own body so that we can enter back in with more knowledge. I I will never forget the interviews with Jimmy Hinton ⁓ and Nancy French. Jimmy Hinton we had after Chronicle reported a story about a minister, who ⁓ to prison for abusing some. Teenagers some and some children in his church, and how he had been able to move from congregation to congregation. Even though ⁓ he had this history, he was still able to continue to get new jobs at new congregations Nancy French, encourage anybody to read her book. ⁓ that's one that I I put down sometimes and just sat in stunned silence at what happened. ⁓ And interviews exposed the vulnerability I think we have in particular in our community to ⁓ sexual predators our I have no other way to put it. really disturbing stuff. And yet ⁓ it's something that needs to be talked about and brought to because innocent people suffer terribly at the hands of of perpetrators that in many cases get away with it, I'll land on this last one here because I'm getting long. Rubel Shelley talking about the LGBTQ issue. He wrote a book called "Male and Female, God Created Them," an excellent, excellent study on what the Bible has to say about this. Rubel is such a loving person. it is written without a whiff of animosity or contempt toward anyone. but the funny thing is, this book is like, I don't know, 500 pages. And I got advanced copy and I was reading it to prepare for my interview. And I was in grad school at the same time. I think I pulled three all nighters to read this book and got on to interview Rubel. before we started to record, ⁓ I said, "You know, I read the book. I really enjoyed the book." He said, read it." I said, "Well, yeah, of course." He said, "You read the whole thing." I said, "Yeah, all, you know, 50 pounds of it." And he's like, "Well, there's a shorter version coming out in three months. You know, it's it's just a hundred pages." And I was like, Man, you could have told me that But ⁓ it was it was well worth the read. So I guess those would be the interviews that have have really ⁓ influenced my thinking on some really tough subjects that we talk about fairly often.

Marcus Stenson: maybe just think of it that you got to read the director's cut before the theatrical release came out later. So yeah, yeah. The benefit is yours, I'm sure. I appreciate so much what you you began sort of speaking about in terms of actually defining terms and how a lot of meaningful conversations break down before they get started because we all come to the table with assumptions. And if you don't know that you come to the table with assumptions or a perspective or a lens.

BT Irwin: That's exactly right.

Marcus Stenson: Through which you're entering the conversation or even approaching the scripture, then you're not gonna get very far. And reporting on, know, the churches of Christ you've realized some things that have shifted your perspective that, you know, probably without digging in in that way, most folks sitting in the pew wouldn't know What have you learned about us ⁓ collectively as a fellowship that you think would just surprise the average person in a pew on Sunday?

BT Irwin: We doing a series called "Where have all churches gone?" I think that's what it was called. And so in editorial meetings and planning meetings and then the content there was this theme of dying churches, right? So the Church of Christ community is shrinking, ⁓ congregations dying and disappearing. this of course reflects a larger cultural trend. And so ⁓ over everything we did, there was this shadow of we're on the decline. hey, heard it all the time. I'm a I'm a traveling preacher, so I am ⁓ Constantly out at Church of Christ congregations all over. And the most common story that I hear from people when I come to their church for the first time, you know, they'll take me out to lunch and they'll be like, we're so sorry. we're so sorry. Sorry for what? we're sorry it's not the way it used to be. ⁓ You know, used to have 250 people here on a Sunday morning and our our classrooms were full and we had to send a bus out into the neighborhood to to pick up the kids and And and we're just so sorry, you know, we don't know what happened. And after three and a half years of here, what I want everyone listening to this to hear that that's true. The church is not dying and it's not shrinking, it's just not. I mean, for one, Jesus. Promised us that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church. And he promised that the gospel would reach every square inch of the globe. This is the Lord's will, and the Lord's will will be done. So there's not a force of nature. you know, ⁓ if cannot prevail against the church, then the culture cannot prevail against the church, politics can't prevail against the church. incompetence can't prevail against the church. ⁓ own apathy can't prevail against the church. Bad news can't prevail against the church. here's what I've gotten to see over last three and a half years, and here's what I've gotten to hear: is that The church is is exploding and thriving and growing in places that we don't see, in places that we don't see. ⁓ in a while over the last three and a half years, there have been these little glimpses where like it opens up a little bit and we can see in. the ⁓ number of students who are being baptized into the Lord's church and forming new congregations on college campuses. Right? They're not in an A frame building out on the main street with a steeple on top. They're meeting in a in a dorm, or they're meeting in a cafeteria, or they're meeting in a student union. and then, of course, churches are are forming and growing in in war zones all over the world, in refugee camps all over the world, in places where ⁓ the church is illegal and so we don't hear about it. every one of these stories where where we hear about this this enormous growth and vitality, These have all been really regular. Normal, nothing special people. And every one of stories starts with this small voice, this little whisper, this little nudge, and and and seeing, ⁓ there's something to do at right here at hand. And and each of these people have have taken that as okay, Lord is asking me to to do this this small thing, right? A cup of cold water. you know go to that prison and and take ⁓ take food there ⁓ ⁓ you know feed these refugees or start dramatic production at my church because people need an outlet for their creativity or be Santa Claus or whatever. And so these people trust and obey, they feel that little nudge and they say, "Okay Lord, I don't know you're picking me and it doesn't seem like a big deal, but I'll I'll do it anyway." the of this Christian Chronicle ministry is we get a glimpse of that every day. ⁓ And that's what's going on with the church of Christ in the today.

Wes McAdams: that's so good, BT. I ⁓ love that. I love that that optimism and that positivity and that faith and and that conviction that that the gates of hell and nothing that Satan or the world throws at us is gonna stop the Lord's church and that we win.

Marcus Stenson: Preach. That'll preach.

Wes McAdams: BT, as you look at congregations that are healthy and are thriving, in addition to those individuals that are doing the sorts of things that you're describing here, when you have a whole congregation of people that are bringing all of their giftedness and all of their spirit filledness and they're working together towards the common goal. what do you see in thriving congregations that other congregations should pay attention to?

BT Irwin: Yeah, well, th this is a two-part answer. a minute ago I mentioned how churches growing in prisons and they're growing in war zones and they're growing in refugee camps and they're growing in. places where Christianity is illegal and they're thriving, ⁓ the common thread there with our ancestors in Christ in the New Testament? It's adversity and opposition. It's poverty. It's suffering. And I I there is something to be said for when you reach ⁓ absolute end of rope and you've got nothing and you can do nothing for yourself. Who do you turn to? What power do you call on? You got you got nothing left but the Lord. And that it it's it's kind of sad that that's what it takes. But I see churches thriving ⁓ in in adversity. Now that's that's the first part of my answer. The second part of my answer is I mentioned these churches that ⁓ are kind enough to invite me to come and And I've noticed something about these small churches, almost all of them, is that announcements are very, very different at a small church. And the announcements at that large church are in a bulletin and an email newsletter, ⁓ and be on a screen in front of the auditorium on Sunday Every small church I've been to, when it comes time for announcement, it turns into a family conversation. "Hey, has anybody seen so-and-so? How's doing?" "Yeah, I saw her on Thursday. She's doing much you know, but "I noticed so-and-so is not here today. Does anyone know what's going on with him?" "No, I don't, but I'll call him this afternoon." You know. ⁓ "We really need someone to cut the grass this week. Will someone cut the grass this week?" in the way that a small the way people see each other and notice when someone's missing and take care of each other and take care of their neighbors. I did a sermon a few months ago on, it was right Jesus washed the of. His disciples that he said, the new command I give you, love one another as I have loved you. He did it right after he washed feet. And I I said to this small church where I spoke that morning, You must look at a bigger church and say, that's what God wants us to be. No. The wants you to love one another as the Lord has loved you, and he has shown you how to do that. And in your small church, you are able to do that. I go to a big church. It's hard to do that in a big church. I still I've been at my congregation the better part of 32 years. There's still people I don't know. Okay. I said, You as a small church, I see the way you care about each other. I see the way you notice each other. I see the way you welcome visitors. I see the way that you are ⁓ you're not putting together big programs. What we need here is a program or a ministry. You don't have the the energy, money, or time to do that. But what you do is take care of each other's needs. ⁓ You wash feet. love each other. we like things big in the United States. I don't think that's ever gonna leave our But I think we're to a time where we're going to start to understand that ⁓ in a small church, we can notice each other and love each other and take care of each other and share life together ⁓ in a way not as exhausting as running big expensive programs. Don't apologize that you think you're old, you know, or your your your building's ugly or the carpet's People aren't looking for that stuff. That's not why they're coming. People are lonely and they're burdened with anxiety and shame and they feel cut off. They want to know if they're loved. They want to know if they're worth something.

Marcus Stenson: I have experienced in much the same way, there's an apologetic spirit, especially if it's a church that used to be much larger. And what I've been convicted by, especially the last few years, is that we have done a disservice to some of these congregations in They put a tremendous amount of pressure on themselves every week. And they show up and they lament that there are no longer kids, there's no longer a thriving youth ministry, that they're getting older, right? a lot of times they may be in a region or a place or an area where the population itself is driving downward. there aren't jobs, and so the kids that are there up leaving, and that's just a natural part of things have developed. And a lot of times these are factors that are out of their control. And one of the things that always like to remind congregations like that of is that. Not a single church that you read about in the New Testament still exists today as it was currently constituted in the never look at any of those faithful churches and say that they failed or didn't accomplish what God had them there for. Because as you stated before, Jesus is not losing. It often looks different than we think, or it happens in ways and places that we can't see, but he's not losing. What is something that gives you a tremendous amount of of hope about the churches of Christ right now and the direction that we're moving? And then the inverse, what is something that you actually may see as a threat or you find worrisome as you look at, the big scale tapestry of the church at this point in time?

BT Irwin: my hope for the future of us ⁓ is that the Lord faithful. it's the Christ ⁓ in church of Christ. New Testament doesn't wring its hands over you know ⁓ the the future of the church. It just assumes that the church is going grow and prosper because the Lord is the one that ⁓ makes that happen. that that's my hope. I can't say that I'm ⁓ worried the future of the the church, but ⁓ I'm gonna say something that I've noticed. one of the things I think is really special about us in the Church of Christ our culture. Stone Campbell Restoration Movement, whatever you want to call it, grew up along with the United States. And so it has a very democratic DNA to it. So, ⁓ you know, every congregation is that's not biblical, but it's a part of our culture. And so as long ⁓ as long as we've been around The expectation is that every member participates in the in the church, in the life of the church. And I think the one thing that makes us really, really, special, is our a cappella singing. And you want to talk about participatory. I just tell this story when my dad died. And we had his funeral in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. My mom was insistent that we worship at his funeral. that was going to the emphasis of that day. And so all the people that knew my dad from the Church of Christ, ⁓ they all came to this funeral. But I came from Michigan. Most of my friends, close friends here in are Catholic. they so kind. They traveled down to Murfreesboro to be at my dad's funeral. And my wife's family, they're not from the Church of Christ. they all down to this funeral, and sang. Okay, and everybody listening to this right now you know what I'm talking about. I mean we sang and Raise the roof. I mean, it was, it was, it was it was beautiful. after the funeral was over, all of these folks, had never experienced that before. They said. Where did you get the choir? how did you do this? And they couldn't understand. And I said, Well, in the church of Christ, we just do it. I grow up sitting next to my dad the pew, I hear my dad singing the bass line, and I just start imitating. And so I don't know how it happens. we just do it. And here's my here's my point. as a child, I from our a cappella singing that I am a part of this. this is participatory. My voice is needed here. And ⁓ I haven't found many things in my life that I love more. And concern that. There is a trend toward a a professionalization of ministry and a professionalization of roles in the church that I undermines our participatory DNA in Church of Christ tradition. And I I'll just tell you when it really hit me hard. I went to a I went to a a service and the entire was two men and a bunch of videos. And so all these people sitting in a room, a few hundred people in a room, they heard from men, and then they watched videos of worship music that nobody in the audience knew. And I walked out of there and I felt I felt empty. Like I showed up to worship. And I'm like, I sat there, a passive observer of other people worshiping, and other people, nobody in the pews had anything to do. we didn't even stand up or sit down. And that's that's what worries me. ⁓ I mean, there are congregations that have gone instrumental, and I'm not going to get into whether that's scriptural or not scriptural, but I feel like in this to. ⁓ appeal to the marketplace and copy, you know, the non-denominational evangelical churches that seem to be growing. In our rush to be like everyone else, we think we're just changing music, but we're not changing music. we're changing our own DNA. we're changing our own culture. we're changing the the the the patterns and the the practices ⁓ the air in our spaces where our children are growing up so that even if we aren't saying the words, what our kids are learning is this is not a participatory thing. This is for the professionals to do. And that's not who we are. Church of Christ. It's never been who we are. It's never been what we're all about. that's what worries me.

Wes McAdams: I love the idea of framing our cappella singing ⁓ as about participation. we are being trained and training one another when we sing. Sometimes I think we forget that that Paul says that our singing is to the Lord, absolutely, but it is also to one another. And the three of us have spent our lives not only sung to, but singing to other people. we have been participants, not spectators. And much of our world is built to be spectators. ⁓ And we get to gather with God's people, regardless of how many or how few we are gathered with God's people and are singing not only praises to Him, but ⁓ admonition and encouragement to each other and receiving that from one another. That's something you can't get anywhere else.

BT Irwin: That's right.

Wes McAdams: I know in a podcast or in an interview, you're always supposed to know the answer before you ask it, but I'm gonna throw you a curveball here, I think. But I don't know the answer to this. what's next in your in your world and and how can people keep up with you?

BT Irwin: well, the occasion for for me leaving here ⁓ is had ⁓ prayed for a really long time that God would give me ⁓ ministry in the trenches, so to speak. ⁓ I've I've got a passion for community development and always have. ⁓ And so prayer was answered last September and I started working with a Christian community development organization here in Metro Detroit. creating and running economic empowerment programs for for that you know just aren't jobs there's not wealth ⁓ people are really really struggling there's a definitely an organizational management component to that but it is it is real pastoral work and it is disciple making work too. it's not gonna succeed if I'm not making disciples. and so ⁓ it it takes a tremendous amount of energy and and ⁓ time to do that. And I have a 13 year old, which is ⁓ an church is contained in that one 13 year old. A multitude is there and in a marriage. so and I enjoy preaching and I I it's been my f one of my favorite ministries for years to to serve congregations that don't have anyone or in b are in between as I thought about this podcast, for example, and I all these new ⁓ responsibilities, and I thought the the time's come, right? I've done everything I can do here. And for this thing to to grow and to be really good, and for it to thrive, I'm standing in the way of someone else. I've what the Lord gave me to do. I did the work that. That was put a hand. And now it's time for me to get out of the way. And so I prayed about that pretty hard for a few months. And Lord was like, Yeah, it's time. ⁓ And ⁓ and now here we sit. Except I I multiplied instead of one, now they're two. And ⁓ I ⁓ I have ⁓ no doubt, no doubt that because Lord is behind all of this, and that the is doing something in the world, that the two of you together.

Marcus Stenson: man.

BT Irwin: With Kenzie and the team at the Christian Chronicle, and the audience that prays for you and listens to you, and all of your guests and the spirit of the Lord, that the Lord is going to do more than we can ask or imagine through something as simple as a podcast. ⁓ I am delighted thrilled to to step step away because I know that. What's coming next is gonna be even better.

Marcus Stenson: Man, I think we have to thank you. anyone is listening to this right now, and I'm sure who has listened to all your work over these past years knows your and your humility are on full display in this moment in a way that is extraordinarily admirable. ⁓ And ⁓ it's an honor to be a part of of what you have helped to build here. I know the Lord's gonna continue to do great things through you. And ⁓ I know that the audience here loves you and ⁓ I hope Wes they love us just as much, but they love you with good reason here. And so I think it's probably fitting if we would be able to give you the opportunity to share a parting word, ⁓ a final thought. that you want to leave with the audience here, ⁓ what would you have on your heart for them today?

BT Irwin: Don't be afraid.

Wes McAdams: Amen. Amen. BT, Thank you for today's conversation. You've blessed me richly today. And thank you for the ministry that you have done, the ministry that you're doing and the ministry you will continue to do, brother. I'm so thankful to be part of the same kingdom and be working towards the same goals with the same spirit. Thank you, brother.

Marcus Stenson: Absolutely.

BT Irwin: Thank you. It's an honor to be with you.