Dr Kipenzi: Hello, hello. And welcome to Somebody Lied When We have this new podcast and it is us, and we are just talking and bringing you insight and information. So we are hosted now. I am Dr. Kipenzi Herron and this is I'm Shanelle D. Johnson, licensed marriage and family therapist. And every week we are going to challenge ourselves and you with relationship advice that we've been told and replace it with what we're seeing in real life and in clinical practice. Now, before we go in any further, we got to tell you who we are. So, not only am I Dr. Kipenzi Herron, and I'm here to offer some insights and some clarity, I am Doctor with the Receipts. Come on, Dr. with receipts. I am aka the lie detector. Yeah. And this is I am Shanelle D. Johnson. I am the therapist. although we both are therapists here, I am the therapist. I like to call myself the Harriet Tubman of Mental Health, where my job is to get you from point A to point B, with a little bit of dose of reality on there. Mm-hmm. She is our chief reality officer. Absolutely. Like, like, like don't, don't, don't shrink it. That's it. That that's who you are. I am the and I do this in such a way. So one of the things about me that you all will find out is I show up 100% authentic to who I am every single day with the hopes that it gives you permission to show up a hundred percent authentic to who you are. So what you can expect from me is you can expect I like to cuss, I cuss a lot. and I'm I'm gonna work on it. I'm gonna work on it, but not yet. you can expect that I believe in the ancestors and baby white Jesus as well. Right, so can expect some you can expect a little bit of everything when it comes to that, right? You can expect that. I'm gonna keep it honest, I'm gonna keep it truthful. and my goal is to try to make it make sense. Make it make sense. Yes, make it make sense. So in this episode, we are talking about somebody lied when they said that strong women don't need help. Yes, come on. Listen, I think that this is so good because unfortunately, I'm a strong woman. And that's not unfortunate. Well, I mean, I think it's two I te think it's two fold. Okay. I think we like to think of strong women as a as a accolade, right? Or as a trope in some ways. And so I think specifically as black women, we carry a trope or superpower or whatever for being strong women. And so on one one hand, I'm really proud of the fact that I stand and say that I'm a strong woman. But then on the other hand, I'm still very much saddened. Strong women are birthed out of places where they really need more support. Right. More help. More encouragement. More for sure. For sure. Now I think we need leaders, right? Super quick. Because when you hear this first, you're like, somebody lied when they said that strong women don't need help. So then you're like, this sounds like misogyny. Mm-hmm. So you may also think, so you're attacking? Strong independent women? No. No. So women are supposed to be dependent on men now. Those may be some of the things our haters say as soon as you hear this conversation about to happen. And we want to interrupt that. We want to address you head on and say that if your strength requires you to do everything alone, it isn't freedom. it's captivity. Mm-hmm. That's what I just heard. It's captivity. If you're doing it alone, it's captivity. The suffering. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. And then strength becomes your identity. So let's get into it. Mm-hmm. Let's get into it. I think one of the things we first need to talk about is that self reliance can become expensive. What do you mean? What I mean by that is it can become expensive because it replaces connection. Self reliance, being a strong woman can be isolated. I agree. Right? Because we are doing it ourselves. We are saying that I could do it. And and we have all heard, those of us who are members, I could do bad by myself. Yes, you can. And it creates this isolation where you are doing it by yourself. You are not with community. You are not with the ancestors. You are on an island. And instead of having the self-reliance, you create isolation and that prevents you from having connection. With other women, with other people, with other individuals. So that's what I mean by it. And then that self-reliance, that strength, becomes your identity. And then you can't find places and ways in which to get community, to be vulnerable. Because vulnerability isn't weakness. And that's an episode for another day. Tell me your thoughts on this. As I'm as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about myself in different parts of my life, right? So I'm thinking about so there was times when I was married at one point in time, and praise God for my Henry. Henry, shout out to you. I love you. We changed the name. We changed our name, yes. Henry is my favorite fake person name, my favorite male fake person name, and Tiffany is my favorite fake fake person female name. And so I it had me thinking about being married to my Henry and thinking that There were times when sometimes I felt like it would just easier if I just did it myself. Right. Like it's not that I didn't want the help or I didn't need the help. Sometimes it was just easier for me to figure it out by myself than to try to figure it out with someone who maybe couldn't couldn't support me the way I needed to be supported. Did you determine that that then created an imbalance of you overfunctioning and him? Henry under functioning. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. After now, like looking back into my marriage and going back, I definitely can see how that created an imbalance. In the beginning it didn't look like an imbalance. In the beginning, it just felt like a compromise or felt like it was just my turn to do the part, right? And then eventually it just stayed in that way. Like it never came back the other way. Does that make sense what I'm saying? It does. It does. What I hear you say is that it then became normalized. Yes. So then it you you you took on the obligation, the duty, the responsibility and that created the self fulfilling cycle of well, I'm strong and I don't need help. And in the beginning I I think I definitely think going back and looking into and not just my marriage, but even looking in other relationships, it never really starts as I'm over functioning. Yeah. Right. It always started as I wanna be a a a good team member. I wanna, you know, hold my part of the b the bargain or part of the deal. I wanna, you know, carry my my weight in the relationship. Right. So initially I think it started like that. And I think initially in some relationships, it also started as a it's okay if you can't carry your weight. Like as a partner, this is a part of like what I feel like partnership is. Okay. Right. Like not not a lot of time do you expect your partner to be a hundred percent on and when they're not a hundred percent on, I w I was under understanding that it was my job to take up the slack. Mm. Right. And then in taking up that slack, I think it's important to understand that or to to maybe question, are we continuously strong women taking up the slack? Yes. Are we continuous continuously creating this hyper independence? And the hyper independence becoming an adaptive response. Yeah. You know what? I think that there's a there's a conversation around reciprocity that we and and reciprocal reciprocity is like the reciprocalness. It's the we take turns thing. Right. Right. I think that there's there's a conversation that probably we need to have in relationships. We need sorry, let me let me get that together. I think that's a part of the con a conversation that we need to have. Like what happens when the reciprocity isn't there? Right. Or what happens if I'm taking up the slack too long. Right. Right. because I think in most relationships we we understand that there's gonna be days where I'm gonna be probably more on and your partner's gonna be on and we hope that that's gonna shift, right? Where we both take up, you know, we both honor what we need in the connection. Right. You know? but sometimes it's not. I I think one of the pieces I I wanna definitely highlight is and you said it earlier, there's this strong black woman schema. There's this trope that we have a cape on, and the cape is that we do it all, and that doesn't serve us. And I think when we look at it in in the bigger picture, the impact of it, yes, there's there's that hyper vigilance and hyper independence, but is it the awareness of depression? Because now we're highly functioning. And Dr. Judith Joseph talks about high functioning depression. So it's then beginning to have the conversation. Since we do it all, are we masking what's happening underneath? Yes, I agree. I think some of the impacts of over taking on too much, right? Some of the the symptoms of doing too much is depression. Right. I think some of the symptoms of when we have unreciprocal relationships is anxiety. Right. I was just reading a book by about boundaries and I'm gonna it's gonna come to me in a minute. but I was just reading the book about boundaries and it talks about like when we don't have boundaries in a relationship, what we do is we create an imbalance in the connection. And anytime that we are imbalance is a recipe for a agitation and a mental health disorder. Right. Like anytime we're too far in one direction and not in the other, insert a reason for your mental health to get flared up. Right. If you're taking on too much stress at work, if you're taking on too many responsibilities, insert the opportunity for a for anxiety to show up and be like, we doing too much? Yes. Right? Or depression to show up and be like, I can't handle it all. Right. And so I think sometimes what happens is we take on the trope of strong black woman, which is a beautiful thing, but I think we take on it. in with the understanding that it comes at a cost. And I don't think that we're all a black women or people of color, women of color. I don't think that the cost is what we are aware of. Right. Right. I don't know if you follow on Instagram Dr. Rachel Martin. and I thoroughly love her because she talks about taking off the cape specifically to black women and she brings the conversation to the table in a meaningful way because I think you're absolutely right. When there's a schema, there's this ideology that we've begun to embrace. and as two women of color, how many times have we heard you have to work twice as hard? Absolutely. And because of that, that has become normalized and that has become part of the burden that we hold on to. I think that that's just a I think that is the burden in in many communities of color. Mm-hmm. I don't think it's just in black communities. I think that most all communities of color kinda have that same understanding in some way. Right? People who are born of immigrant parents will often say, you know, they believe that you have to work hard to get what you need or whatever. So a part of that I think is like the American dream or the American the ingrained cultural expectation. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Of pulling yourself up by the bootstrap. Yes. And I think that is a thing for women of color, right? Like Or people of a color. I think that's our story as p as black people. We pull ourselves up up as from our bootstraps time and time and time again. But the difficulty in that is it doesn't look at the systemic lens. It doesn't incorporate how racism and sexism, misogyny, patriarchy, capitalism have all had a different weight on marginalized communities of colors. Yeah. So it's the well y you know, someone can say, Well, I pulled myself up, why can't you? Well have You had to deal with racism, have you had to deal with sexism, xenophobe, just all the things. So I think you're right. It it changes the conversation. And we need to look at it from a different lens. I want to bring it back to strong black women specifically. This is a conversation some of many that will have, but I wanted to bring it back to strong black women, especially to the piece when you were saying how because there becomes this over functioning. Depression happens, anxiety happens. I think it's important because when we look at it, there's a spillover of stress. There's this book I'm reading. it's called Marginalized Couples Therapy. I'll put it in the notes because I can't think of the author right now, but she talks about the spillover of stress from one facet of individual life into another. And I think when we look at the stress in one facet of being a woman or the one facet of of being a a black person. And then it spills over not just into our relationships, into our community, into our families. You talked about this and and I'd love it if you share because I think let's let's give some background, some context on how we got here. so as I am I am calling myself the receipt Keeper. we met many years ago and it has been an honor and a pleasure because I saw your strong black women, womeness, womanness, but I also saw your vulnerability and how you did not gatekeep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And one of the things that I think you so beautifully talk about is the ripple effect. And I think it's important to understand how a strong black woman There's a ripple effect to our strong black girl. Yeah. And our strong black boy. And it's important. So share your your your knowledge, Harriet Tubman of mental health. About the ripple effect. They're so sweet. Okay, so let's back up for a second because everybody doesn't know how Dr. Kipenzi and I met. So I was the co-founder of Urban Restoration Counseling Center, which is a mental health clinic here in San Diego. and during that time I had the opportunity to work with a lot of therapists who baby therapists, right? And so at one point in time, believe it or not, Dr. Kipenzi was a baby therapist. And that's how we met. I met her. she showed up for interview in a galea Right. Yes, she did. She showed up in the gala. And I was like, You better eat it. You better come you better show up into the interview wearing your galea and it was everything. And so we have been connected ever since then. Right. And so now fast forward, we've gotten a chance to like support each other and learn each other, and we're here on the podcast. And so the ripple effect is it's my belief system. I have a lot of them. This is one of them. My belief system is the ripple effect. I believe that when a person comes into therapy, it is a sacred opportunity to change the dynamic, to change the legacy of their family, right? I feel like when one person, let's say Tiffany, comes into therapy, I feel like not only does Tiffany get healed from whatever is ailing her, I feel like when Tiffany is healed, her future generation is healed because so but because Tiffany's depression is healed, we no longer we will cut out the ability for that depression to s to to go forward in her family dynamics the same way, right? I also think that because Tiffany is getting healing, she also gets an opportunity to heal her lineage with her mom, with her uncles, with her kids, with her siblings, right? So I feel like we get the opportunity to heal Tiffany in the past and we get to heal Tiffany's generation in the future. And I believe that's the ripple effect of therapy, is that it goes in both directions, right? We're healed up and we're healed down as a person comes to therapy. I love that. I love that. It it's so great. There there was something, I some some some gentleman on Instagram was talking about and side note I am not huge on Instagram, so not my strong suit. Yet and it was talking about how our tree grows up and down. And I think when you think about that that analogy, especially when it comes to strong black women, we are healing up. into the generations that ripple effect the generations ahead of us and it is not just our family generations it is the community and the connections chosen families absolutely and healing down that doesn't mean because I I also want to kind of put a a note on this as a strong black woman I don't want us to then say now I'm responsible for healing the generations it is you become the light There are people who will choose to follow the light because you are a changed individual, whether it's the boundaries, the standards, the values that you can now articulate. There are some people who won't jump on. It is not for you to save them because then that that then comes back to it becomes back to the the stress. The strong added to the strong black woman. Right. So it is to say that you become the difference and people can identify and choose. Or they can say, mm, that's not my jam, and that that too is okay. Absolutely. So when we talk about the strong black women and how they lie to you, because I think it's so important to realize that that is a a cultural narrative that has been ingrained in us as women. That we are the the caregivers, we are the responsibility people, we are are all the things that are necessary for a house to happen, a household to function. Or how many times in work that you are in a room full of men? I have been. and it's time to take notes. And this was of course before we had AI and AI did the notes for you, but like somebody need to become the scribe. Right. And someone was like, Hey, hey Kipenzi now I'm I'm gonna be put some respect on my name. Dr. Kipenzi ain't taking no notes. But before then it might have been like, okay. And here here are these ingrained ideologies that said that as women you are the person who brings the donuts or makes the coffee or sets up the room or right. Yeah. And I think those are some of the things that now as women are taking higher seats and of of power in rooms, we are still in some form or fashion taking the notes. We're taking the extra project. Well, it'll be good for your career. But what about my bandwidth? What about my time? Right, right, right, right. And I think that then changes the conversation. because we have taken that on and said, I don't need help. Because that has been tied to our identity. That strength has been tied to our identity. So what happens when we begin to change our values and our identity? And we start to ask for help. Right? Like One of the hardest things for me as a as a woman is to ask for help. Mm-hmm. And and I'm I'm I'm gonna be so honest with y'all. I'm not the type of person to ask for help in the first place. Mm-hmm. So if I absolutely have to ask you for help, yes, and you give me some kind of funny side reaction, smart inclination that you don't wanna help, not only will I be like, I'm good on the help. Never, never, never. I don't even need to ask you for help again. Or anything else. Or it or anything else. And so therefore, like it's it's such a big deal to ask for help, right? And then I think vulnerability. Yes, it's such a vulnerability to ask for help. And then when to to to like put all of my stuff aside to finally ask for help and then for somebody to give me something other than, Yeah, I'll help you, I just be like, It's a slap in the face sometimes. Right. And then I think the other part of it is the people who fake help, right? Like Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Fake help fake fake help. Fake help is another like thing. Okay. Where people like they kinda wanna help you, but they really don't want to help you. And so and then at that point, like I'm a type of person, again, I'm not gonna ask for help. When I finally do ask for help, if you give me fake help, I'm good on that too. Right? Like I think that it just is one of those things that's making me realize like I ask for help is such a bummer, right? therapy at the time 'cause you I'm a therapist and therapists should always have faith. Therapist should be in therapy. and so I was in therapy at the time, and I was telling my my therapist, I was like, listen, I'm in a season where I need help, and I'm asking my my my Henry for help, and my Henry is not giving me the help that I would like. And my therapist asked me, he said, Shanelle like, does the help have to be the way that you want the help to be? Right? Okay. And so it was like it was one of the conversations where I had to be honest and I had to be like, well, maybe I'm I'm gonna say over not having what is it overreal underrealistic, what is it called? When you your expectations So I was like, well, maybe are my expectations like different or too high or whatever the case may be. So I have to have a conversation around expectations or what people capacity and all that type of stuff. but long story short, asking for help is a vulnerability. And I think especially for women who identify as strong or who have been put in positions of being strong, right? It's very difficult to ask for help. and I think if I go if I can be honest about why it's so difficult for me to ask for help, it's probably be It's probably because over the years I've asked for help and help didn't come. Okay. Right? Or I asked for help in just the help didn't actualize in the way that I wanted to. And so then I realized I could just might as well just do it do it by myself. And I think as over time is after having failed attempt after failed attempt after failed attempt of asking for help, I just learned not to ask. What I what I hear you say is that for you, asking for help became unsafe. Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's interesting because even what you shared, and I appreciate the share about then questioning were your expectations too high? Mm-hmm. And I think that's important because maybe and and I wonder. So let me do a little therapy. Not that the expectations were too high, but were they unclear? So too vague. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. So I agree. I think in the beginning of my my marriage, yo, there's so many things. First, I'll go back and say, like, I was not set up for marriage. I I mean, I get an A for the try, but there's so many things about it that where I realized like I wasn't prepared, right? I wasn't prepared to be a team member. Right. The fact that I didn't know how to ask for help. Right. Is my I didn't know how to ask for help from the person who was posing my team member. Right. Right. And so like it just made it difficult for us to already be on get in the same page because I already struggled with that from the beginning. Right. Right. From day one. And so it just makes it more and more harder. And then especially if I re if it was a struggle point from day one and then I'm not getting the responses that I want or hope to get. I'm just it just it just ends up being like I'm good. I just don't need to ask for help, I'm good. Mm. It it and it's funny because I also wonder this was there a point did by the time you asked for help, were you already underwater? Yes. So then it it made it more dire. Yes. So then of course he's starting to hear the help and he's thinking this is the first iteration. No, but I'm I'm already drowning. I'm already drowning. Right. I'm not screaming for help. I'm not screaming for help from the the from the from the lifeboat or from the what is it called? The the pier. Right, right. I'm not screaming for help from the pier or from inside a lifeboat. I'm screaming from help from in the middle of the water. Right, right. You and like you on the on the beacon with your feet. Yes. And I'm like, how come you why are you moving so slow? Yeah. How come you're not faster? Yeah. You just sense the urgency that you got is on some other stuff. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It it's so interesting. because the the reason I, in full transparency, was like not specific because I as well how do you learn to be a partner in a relationship when you're a strong black woman? I read by Sasha Bonnet, The Water Bearer. The water bearer and she talks about so beautifully about the matriarchal. lineage that she came from and I too have that experience. And me three. Right. So, you know, my mom being there, my grandmother, my great grandmother, and having the privilege to know them all. So coming from strong black women, from strong black women, from strong black women, totally tied into my identity. So when husband came along, I was like, tick tock, tick tock, my men's, what are we doing? So definitely wasn't very specific. So had to be clear and then had to give space for learning what his lived experience was different. Yes. And listen, I think they're just expectations, right? Like a strong black woman. I think what we one of our beautiful, like we are able to like, we're resilient as fuck, and so we're gonna get it. But we probably don't communicate as well about how we're gonna get it or what we're gonna get it, right? I will also tell you it wasn't until after I got out of my marriage that I realized like, there's a things about needs and wants and desires that I had never really been able to really clearly communicate. And not to say like I just it's just one of these things that you don't r you don't know what you don't know until you get out of it, right? And I really do realize that I was raised by of a a a a a legion of women. Yes. Right. and the the beautiful part about that is that I was raised to lean into myself and or if I had to lean into somebody, it was another woman. Yes, yes. I was never raised to learn how to lean into a man. Mm-hmm. And so even if I'm a strong black woman and I need to ask for help, a man isn't who I'm going to go to first. Mm-hmm. Right? And and I think in a marriage, that can be a problem. Mm-hmm. Right? Because in a marriage, it's your partner that you're supposed to be learn lean to. But in my marriage, no shade to my Henry. He was amazing for who he was, but I wasn't conditioned to lean towards him. And so even though like it there's some parts of it like I was never I was never I never knew how to go in his direction. And I had to learn in it. I had to learn how to be taught in it. Right. And practice. And so I think this goes back to, you know, there was a time when we talked about therapy happens outside of fifty minutes. Right. I think that it's that learning process. It's the learning how to move in that other direction, how to apply the skills that's really really the stress. Yeah, yeah. I want to be clear, and as we're having this conversation, we are not here to speak ill of strong black women. No. Or of strong women. We are here to say that no longer do you have to go with the belief that you don't need help. So we are celebrating you and we are giving you the opportunity to come to a place where help is yes, a vulnerability. Help is this ask and it's coming from here, right? It's coming not just from your cognitive, I need help, and this is what it looks like, but coming from a place sometimes of hurt, coming from a place of warmth and desire and belonging and needing connection, and that that is your superpower. Yeah. The strength alone isn't your superpower. When this podcast came about and and and it kind of came up as this baby idea. And I was like, I know who I I wanted to do this with. And I was like, and I know she had a lot on her plate, y'all. And I was like, I will stalk her because I know where she lives at. I was like, Hey girl, hey. She was like, Hey. I was like, what you doing? She was like nothing. I was like, Good. Mm-hmm. And it was to the point of I wanted to connect with somebody who I admire and respect and saw as strong and taught me that I didn't need to do it by myself. So there was no one else I would have rather sit with on this on in these chairs with, behind this microphone with, behind this camera with, than my Shanelle D. Johnson. Thank you, Doc. So sweet of you. It it was totally like, How do I change my hyper independence by someone who holds me accountable? Who holds me to an idea that I am not alone. Can we talk for a second? 'Cause I I've been th it's what's been molding in my head as we're talking is we've been my mother and I was having a conversation yesterday and I was telling her, I was like, Mommy, you're the most strongest woman I ever knew. I've ever met in my life. And she was like, Shanelle, you know, when do I get tired? When do I when when is there ever gonna be a space where I don't have to be strong? Right? And it makes me go back and think about as many as many as many women as in the world that we have as strong black women, one of the things I think that we have to work to do is to cultivate spaces for strong back women to take off their cape, hang it up on the on the hook somewhere and go take a nap. And go eat some food and go sleep. And go color and go like whatever we do to rejuvenate ourselves. And then when we're done, we get pick to pick the cake back up and do what we need to do. But I think that going back now over my life and think about what I've needed over the years. And and the divine has been great to like bless me with these spaces. But if I think about it, we need more intentional spaces where women can rest, where women can recover, where women can restore, where we know that they're strong and we also know That they need supports and they need resources and they need and they need and they need. And so I think we need to I would love to be able to see where we are creating more spaces for women to be strong and to be soft. Right. I love that. there's a book. I am always gonna refer reference a book because I'm always reading Rest is Resistance, and it's Trisha Herschel. again, if I got her name wrong, I'm sorry. I love the book and we'll put it in the show notes. but it does talk. about how rest is resistance. It is res resistance against capitalism. It is a resistance about the norms and the narratives that we've been fed. Yeah. And yes, how as strong women we can get to our soft and pink era. Yes. Soft and pink. And I say that and it's funny because when we were talking about outfits, we were like, all right, how do we coordinate? And I was like, girl, I got black, white, And I just bought a tan shirt. So I clearly black, white, and someone has beautiful. And I was my God, one day I'm gonna buy something pink. No, I probably won't. But I do want, if not my clothes to feature this soft and pink, I do want me to reflect that soft and pink. I do want me to have that rest and that nurturing that sometimes. I need to give me. We need to give each other. Absolutely. It it is the rest. And and rest is not laziness. So I have the I have the the deck the card decks for the book. And one of the it it comes out periodically. I'll pull a card and it says rest is not laziness. And I have to like think to myself, because as a strong black woman, one of the the negative cognitions that I have in my head is that when I rest or when I come offline or when I'm taking care of myself or when I'm not working that somehow I'm lazy. And so I have to fight that narrative all the time. Right. Like even the other day I took off the because I was sick and I had to fight the narrative that, yo, we deserve rest. Right. And it's okay to s to to sleep when you're sick, you know? and that doesn't make us less strong or less brilliant or less smart. And if anything When we lean into our our need for rest and we lean into our need for recovery, that makes us more stronger. That makes us more brilliant. That's when we get to like recover, get downloads, right? And so I think that one of the things, if I could see anything change, a reframe is a reframe to this is strong women deserve rest. Yes. Yes. Right. Yes. That's I think that's I think somebody lied when they said strong women don't deserve rest. I don't know who told us that, but strong women deserve rest. We deserve nutrients. We deserve love. We deserve cuddles, right? We deserve journal, we deserve sleep. I love it. I love it. Because y you're so right. And I I I agree with you. How many of us and and here's how I want to make it the practical application. You have a day off work and you've got a laundry list of things to do. Come on. Or you're exhausted and you throw on that load of laundry. Or you're and I am guilty of it too. I am guilty of it too. Even today. So this isn't something that that's a one and done. This is something I have to remind myself. Like I don't I don't I don't need to do all the things and no, I could order pizza. Mm-hmm. And that serves me just fine. honey, can we talk for a second about I was in a therapy because you know I be wrestling with my depression real hard, right? Time sometimes. My depression, we call her Billy. it's the way I externalize my depression. And I remember I was working with my depression. I was working with my therapist at a time, and I was deep in it. I was deep, deep in depression. And we were talking about I was struggling with the guilt of cooking, not needing not wanting to cook. And for my kids. The kids were smaller then and I was just like, I just feel so bad 'cause I don't want to cook. And my therapist was like, You are in the middle of a depressive episode. She said, Your job is to make sure that your kids eat. Mm-hmm. She says, Did they eat? I said, Yeah, I ordered them a pizza. She said, Good job, Mom. Right? Yeah. And I had to work through the guilt for a while because, you know, when I'm working through my depressive episodes, my kids eat, but it's not by my hand. Right. They eat because DoorDash, Uber Eats, whatever it is, can deliver the food to the house. Thank you. And for a long time I was I w wrestled in guilt because I wasn't the one preparing the food. I wasn't the one cooking. But I will tell any mom in this moment, like if if if your kids are eating by DoorDash, praise God that they eat it. Good job, Mom. Good job. Good job, Mom. Right? And let that be the thing while we work on on you getting out of the precipole. And so I think that one of the things that I've been able to like lean into in these last couple of years is is not only do is okay for me to rest, but it's also okay for me to use shortcuts. Mm-hmm. Right? Like I don't have to keep doing life the hard way. Right. Right? Just because. And that's why the shortcuts are there is because there's a space where we need the space for us. Everybody's eating, everybody's belly's full, everybody in the bed. And and then I think it it changes the conversation and that's where the freedom is. That's where the space to breathe is. Yeah. Is that you don't have to do it alone. All the other things, when people can drop off food, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Right? Because that's one less thing I have to do, one less thing I have to think about. Right. And so that is a blessing by itself. it and and and it's so great too because one of the things I wanted to share is it's having this conversation. creates this connection. It creates the community. So you're not thinking like, I'm doing it. Because you had this story and it was playing and you just heard it. Whereas in sharing this with people you trust, because not all kin folk, not all skin folk is kin folk. That's for sure. But people you trust and call community that you can say, hey, I'm feeling this way and they can support you and say, I got you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got you. Yeah. And so I will say like we we deserve To use our shortcuts. We deserve to lean into our community, right? And I think sometimes that is also a part of the reason why we're overwhelmed and we're overburdened and why we are strong black women is because we are not leaning into community the way we used to. Mm-hmm. Right. and so I think that this is where I lean into, you know, community can be chosen, it could be birth, right? But I think tapping into the community that supports us. allows us to take a step back from being strong black women and then we get to just be women. And then not just tapping into community but tapping into the very people who live in your house too. Well if they're good people. Right. There's a whole episode about that. But if they are in your house, they too can do the work with you. Absolutely. So this is not like I gotta do it by myself. I gotta call and order the mm-mm yeah You take this and I take that. And that's where partnership comes. Absolutely. And then that too is where connection is formed. Absolutely. And I'm glad you said that, but it also makes me think of how as strong black women, I think we can create partnerships with our children. Absolutely. Right? Absolutely. I think as strong black women, I think one of the pieces that we don't that I think that's where we could probably get it from our vanilla cousins a little bit more. Our vanilla cousins are quick to be making partnerships and deals and you know, little pat patents with their kids. We take on the we take on all of it. Yeah. Right? Whereas I think we could offload some of the responsibility to little Tommy and little Tiffany and they can start picking up the stuff a little bit. Yeah. You know? yeah. And and it's it I think it goes back into the over functioning, under functioning. Mm-hmm. We create a space where the relationship begins to shift. And all relationships. So just like you said earlier, that ripple effect. Yes There's different phases in which your children need you, in which your partner needs you. And then there's a time where you say, There's some need I have for me. Yeah. And it's not lazy. And it's not that I have to do it by myself. Yeah. I think that I'm proud to be a strong black woman. yes. Right? I am proud to stand and and and carry that trope with such honor. Right. And then also in that very same breath, I'm also grateful that I've had the opportunity to learn how not to be a strong black woman. I'm grateful that I have been able to position myself in a way where I can experience the privilege of not being a strong black woman. And it's taken me a while to shift that position. I have and I'm not I can't even say that I'm completely shifted, right? But I appreciate being able to go from a strong black woman to I'm a woman who needs some support to can somebody help me, woman, to I can't do this by myself. I don't even know if I can do this at all, woman. Right. I appreciate me being able to grow from strong black woman to more vulnerable woman. Right. It's redefining what that is. And I think that's important. Yeah. It's the redefinition so we get to see it in a new way. Yeah. As we close out the episode, and we want to do this for every episode that we do, we wanna leave you with something. So before we go. Here's what we want you to take with you. When was the last time you asked for help before you were drowning? Ooh, it's the before you were drowning. Before. Underline, underline, highlight, bold. So wait, okay, so in the analogy of like drowning in the water, so like when was the last time I ha I asked for help when I was on the pier? Right? When was the last time I asked for help when I was before when I was in the boat? Back it up. When you were on the pier. When you put your toes in the water. I need to be asked for help then. Right, right, right. When it was when it was at your knees and you were splashing around and you was like I should have been asked for help then. Mm. I see, I see, I see. Not when I'm like under the water drowning. Right, right. 'Cause that's when I'm asking for help. Right. Not when you holding on to to the life. Right. And then you kicking your feet and wondering why you so tired. Mm mm. So before you were drowning. So that changes it. So Somebody lied when they say strong women don't need help. We're gonna change that narrative. And we hope t today, in this episode, you saw a different conversation. Yeah. Cause we all need help. We all do. Yeah. All right, y'all. And