speaker-0: It's the Guggenheim baby. It's called the Guggenheim.

speaker-1: c hasn't the art world been through enough now that Guggenheim is killing people? Yeah, it's really unstretched. It's even more unstretched over the summer. This is like unstretched plus. This or unstretched minus. I don't know. Like yeah, because we are kind of recording every two weeks. We've well, Tim had like fourteen house guests. Yeah. I mean you entertained fourteen people. That should give you like a month off the podcast. Like

speaker-0: And we lost power for eight hours with all these people in the house through the evening. So you can just imagine what it was sort of beautiful. Like at first, we got out all the candles. We played cards. It was very romantic. But then when you realize that when you have a house with a water pump and you lose power, you can't flush the toilets and you have no running water. And so all of a sudden everyone's like, This isn't really fun anymore.

speaker-1: That's not that fun. And there's nowhere you can go.

speaker-0: Well, I as like the host, of course, I'm thinking, well, do we have to like get out buckets? Do I have to go into my garage and and people have to like do their business in buckets? Like, do I have to go into our pond and fetch water like, you know, in a pitcher? And you know, like my mind started going to like, all right, if this keeps going on, how do I? manage this. But fortunately at three in the morning the power went back on. It came back. And then everyone actually fortunately left the next day. So it was like decompression. But it definitely was very got very weird in our full

speaker-1: Yeah. my gosh.

speaker-0: Refrigerators don't work. So like all food for like fourteen people that was like I was thinking, is this gonna go bad? What do we do? I mean it real like there are so many that go, you know, with losing power for many

speaker-1: Yes. Strong. my gosh. What a nightmare. Yeah, that is so crazy. I remember one of our early apartments in Crown Heights. We had lost power. Or there was no, there was something wrong with our toilet, like our bathroom, our plumbing. So we had guests and we just spent the whole weekend walking to the Brooklyn the library at like Grand Army Plus in the bathroom.

speaker-0: It's sort of like a Murphy's Law thing that like when you have the maximum amount of guests, the I mean that happened one time we had a bunch of guests and our toilet got like system got backed up for whatever reason. And it's like, Jesus, you know, you have like guests and now everything, you know, especially in this old house, like it's great with two people, but the minute You start piling people in the house is like, No, wait a minute, I'm like a hundred and seventy five years old. I can't do this.

speaker-1: That's a ma yes, totally. It's not it's not built for that. yeah, we had housing well, air conditioning drama because you know, there's this whole legionnaires outbreak on the Upper East Side. Have you heard about that?

speaker-0: It's the Guggenheim baby. It's called the Guggenheim.

speaker-1: c hasn't the art world been through enough now that Guggenheim is killing people?

speaker-0: It's the Guggenheim baby. It's called the Guggenheim.

speaker-1: c hasn't the art world been through enough now that Guggenheim is killing people? Like no. They're not. I mean they're not.

speaker-0: Thank so much for that gilded toilet.

speaker-1: Yeah. I guess I had seen a documentary when I was a kid about the original Legionnaires outbreak. You know why it's called Legionnaires? It's a bunch of guys from the American the American Legion that got sick and they didn't know why. And it turned out it was like cooling towers. For some reason I think it was the upper west side that time, but maybe or midtown it was somewhere. anyway, so I was like panicking about that. We have a mini split in our bedroom that was like dripping brown water.

speaker-0: Yeah, so

speaker-1: For like the last two summers and I I just we haven't done anything about it. And I finally was like, Well, what if we get legionnaires? So I called them to come fix it. They open it up. The fins are completely black molded. Like there's black mold. Like Keith and I have been sleeping at night and breathing in black mold for like

speaker-0: But that's not how you get legionnaires. I think it has to ar

speaker-1: No, but yeah, but it's not great to be drinking in black and mold and I all of a sudden I'd had this like earache for like two weeks. It went away. I'm like breathing fine. Like so we cleaned it all up. But I was like, Yeah, so

speaker-0: I don't have any I have an air conditioner, like a mini split here in my studio, but in our house we have no air conditioning, just fans and old fashioned old house cooling stuff.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. What is old fashioned cooling house?

speaker-0: Like they built they built our house into the grades. So half of our house is built into the into the earth. And so our first floor is really cool. Like if you walked into our first floor on a hot day, you'd think we had air conditioning. and so it's very so the first floor is very cool, but then the second floor is quite hot, but then the third floor is mega super crazy hot. But I have a full house fan that is in like the attic and it sucks all the cooler air up in, you know, either from outside or from down upstairs. So that's what I mean when it's like old house cool.

speaker-1: Yeah. Okay. that's cool. Literally. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, speaking.

speaker-0: If if two weeks ago when I was in Manhattan, my car registered a hundred and ten degrees.

speaker-1: That's so crazy. my God. wait. Speaking of cars, we've we got an electric car. Did I tell you?

speaker-0: You did? You got rid of the Tacoma?

speaker-1: Yeah, we traded in it was like too expensive. The payments were too expensive and the gas was insane. So yeah, I mean a

speaker-0: That does what kind of an electric car?

speaker-1: It's a Toyota B Z. I don't know.

speaker-0: Never heard of that. Little B is it like a yellow and black, like a little bee?

speaker-1: So it is a funny, it sounds like you're almost gonna say like like there's so many things that start with B that could be a lot more like BM or B or B A B D S or B, you know, you you're like B you know. So it's apparently the earlier versions, like the wheels fell off and people were unhappy with the like the battery power and stuff. So they were running a deal on this one, but apparently they fixed all the kinks and like

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: But it really feels like you're driving around a little bubble, like a little spaceship.

speaker-0: 'Cause it's quiet.

speaker-1: Quiet. You don't even yeah, you don't even hear anything except the wheels on the road. Like I found out that they have to actually include that sound. Like it's a law, right? So that cars so people can hear the car coming.

speaker-0: I it's sort of a dystopic sound because to me it sounds like you've died in angels or something. Or no, like a spaceship is like beaming you're an attractor beam of like an Indian spaceship and it's like sucking you up.

speaker-1: Yes. That's very I know.

speaker-0: Yeah, the biggest question is, and this is the biggest question for artists with cars, is can you put your artwork in it?

speaker-1: Well, so far I've transported a drawing in it. It has that's my thing. Like the car dealer, I was trying to get the cheapest deal I could get and he kept trying to push me into a sedan. And I was like, no. Even though I I think sedan's like the back seats go down and you can maybe slide something through there. But I was like, I need at least a hatchback. And I don't know if you've noticed, like almost all the cars in our area are now these like mini SUV, like SUVs are kind of going out. I think they're these kind of compact. Yeah, they're almost what we used to call station wagon. They're like a little more like

speaker-0: Is that what yours is? Is it like a subcompact S

speaker-1: Yeah, it's like a smaller with a hatchback and I can fit you know, it's not obviously like the Tacoma, but like I can fit stuff back there and Yeah.

speaker-0: Because I I have a Volkswagen Tiguan and when I went by it, I took a tape measure with me because I was measuring what like my sort of largest paintings are. And I was like, Well, I need to be able to fit at least like one of my largest paintings in the back. And the guy was like laughing because I was like, you know, this tape measure measuring, you know, because I feel like that's to you know, being able to transport your own artwork is

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: Is so important. Like I think that you know, but

speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. It's it's

speaker-0: Artist consideration in buying a car.

speaker-1: Totally. Or even just stuff. Like I used to have to load up on gallon like these five gallons of acrylic and like buy tons of them. And then, you know, any kind of yeah, you gotta have something. So I was like, what's but we're also like up the hill from a giant U-Haul place that has every different size truck pickup, you know. So I'm like, if anything comes up, I can also just like run out and get

speaker-0: I feel like I remember reading a quote by Agnes Martin where she said that you you shouldn't make a painting larger than what you can handle yourself or put in your car yourself. And I don't know if she followed that, you know, maybe I think in her older age that became like her motto. but I've always I've always sort of thought of that. And she had a Volkswagen golf. And I also

speaker-1: That's amazing.

speaker-0: Station wagon. Yeah. And in the in the Volkswagen Golf Station Wagon, I can fit almost all of my paintings too.

speaker-1: that's amazing. Artist cars. That's a whole slideshow we should work on.

speaker-0: I'm a Volkswagen kid, you know, like I I'm like I've always I've largely been committed to Volkswagens, but now they don't make any models that I like. So when I whenever I need to get another car, I don't know what I'm gonna do because I don't like any of the current Volkswagen models. So I hope they're listening and they

speaker-1: And this is when you say you don't like them, it's an aesthetic thing. it's all aesthetic. Okay.

speaker-0: Aesthetic. No, I don't but that's why I've always loved Volkswagen because they for me they were always the most aesthetically pleasing for the price point and also had like a like a European feel to them for also a really good price point. Like it's sort of like low entry luxury sort of thing. And so that's sort of what I'm all about. You know, I don't But I need my buttons to still My dials to still feel like they're real.

speaker-1: Right, right. Yeah. Well that's

speaker-0: Sure, your car is all just like a big computer screen.

speaker-1: It's like a comp and then you plug it in like it's an iPhone when you we've only had to charge it.

speaker-0: A couple nights. I can't.

speaker-1: You have to I don't know Tim, you drive this thing though. And it's it feels like you're well, one of the crazy things is it has cruise control and automatic braking and all. So you can almost it can almost drive itself. Which I which I'm not, but I just it the handling of it is so like you feel like you just touch the wheel, like you're just in there kind of floating through space. It's it's a totally different it really feels like a luxury car to me. Like this is what I imagine, like a ri and the pickup you can go. extremely fast, really quickly, like up a hill or you know, like s the handling part of it is really crazy and but

speaker-0: You know, I'm I'm a very tactile corporeal driver. Like I grew up driving stick shift Jeeps and old Volkswagen Beatles. And for me, the height of dri the driving experience is the clutch and the and the sort of listening to the engine, feeling the rev of the engine. Like I I'm a real old romantic when it comes to

speaker-1: With the car.

speaker-0: Yeah. Like if I could snap my fingers we'd all I'd go we'd all be driving Volkswagen Beatles from nineteen sixty eight. But I've had to sort of drive automatic cars because Volkswagen doesn't even make stick shift cars.

speaker-1: That's amazing. They don't make stick. Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: So that's another mad at Volkswagen.

speaker-1: No, totally. Did you see that Jerry Saltz had it? He had posted a work by Aaron who shows it PPOW, who makes these amazing tapestries. and it was of a car. And so Jerry started this conversation about like what was your first car? And people are weighing in. I weighed in, I sound like such a jerk, but I couldn't help it because I was like, I feel like I'm just gonna share this dumb story, but my Our my car was our family car, which was the nineteen eighty-four Chevy Cavalier. It was like a two-door. But for whatever reason, when we went to Copenhagen, we got stationed there. My parents were like, it's cheaper to ship our Chevy than to like buy a European car with all the taxes or whatever. And the US government pays for us to ship our car. So we drove around Europe in this like two-door Chevy Cavalier for like four years. We drove through East Germany. To West Berlin, like so we're driving through East Germany and this, like what would be a teeny tiny car in the US was like four times the size. This is like a boat on the road, getting stopped by the Stasi like every 30 miles, you know, like who the hell is this? And like I'm pretty sure once my dad got the visa to go through East Germany, they knew and they were kind of watching us along the way. These dumb like, what are these Americans, you know, up to? anyway, but that became my first car when I was like in high school in the nineties. I had this like unbelievably shitty little two door Chevy that I've been across.

speaker-0: Gar up. I don't know if it could have been any shittier than my first car because I had a 1970 Volkswagen Super Beetle, which had no floor in the back. Like, like you could look down at the road from the undercarriage. And it was so dangerous that my dad was like, You have you actually can't drive this car. Like then I got a Honda Civic. but My dad made me sell the Beatle, which was really painful for me because I'm a real beat Volkswagen nut. Yeah. But but my dad was like, this car is gonna split in two, like it's too dangerous. So I sold it to this auto body guy, and he sold it to somebody else in town, and I'd have to watch it drive around my car.

speaker-1: that's always sad. Yeah.

speaker-0: They did get in a little accident and the car split in two. My dad felt very vindic no one died. No one got very vindicated that like, see? Yeah.

speaker-1: my god. my god. Okay. See? Yeah, exactly. Wait, was your Honda Civic the one that had the big bar of lights across the back? Like the hatchback one?

speaker-0: No, I it was a nineteen ninety-six Honda Civic, like four-door. But it was amazing because it had roll-down windows, stick shift, no air conditioning, just a radio. Like it was when you could buy like the most stripped-down car on earth. But it handled like a little sports car because it had a wishbone suspension and it had like because of the stick shift had a good pickup. And it was like a little, it it was like a little sports car to me. I loved it. And I had it for a long time. I had it for like twenty five years or something and and got hundreds of thousands of miles out.

speaker-1: Wow, that's amazing.

speaker-0: Although on a hot day with no air conditioning probably the most difficult yeah, it was pretty difficult.

speaker-1: I can't I see people with their windows down and I'm like, I'm so sorry when we're having these heat waves and stuff. Just like, Yeah.

speaker-0: I've given in and now I use the air conditioning in my car. I feel like it's it's like an adult luxury that I've given myself because my parents were always like anti air conditioning in house in the car. And so I grew up with that mentality. And now that I'm older and you know, in an adult, I'm like, it's nice to have air conditioning in your car when you're driving in traffic.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think so. I also think I just think from my own reading of the health, the older you are, the better it is to not be overheated and like not I'm not I'm not calling you old, sorry. Speaking for myself.

speaker-0: Well, my mom bought an air conditioner before going in ninety five and she bought an air conditioner finally, but in classic fashion, has never opened it up, isn't interested in in having anyone set it up for her, but she just has it in the box just in case.

speaker-1: Just in case it's like too Yeah, that's amazing. No, I'm tough I'm definitely like yeah. I'm definitely spoiled air conditioner.

speaker-0: But I you know, I I like the heat. Like I I I love a tropical climate. Like I I really when there's a summer heat wave, I'm like, bring it on, baby. It's fine. It doesn't bother me.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I just

speaker-0: I just remember how the winter and I'm like, god.

speaker-1: I know totally. That's true. So I I ran into Cameroos. I went to N Dash had this really great performance at her show at the Hill Art Foundation. and I ran into Cameroos and he was like, How's your summer going? What are you doing? And I just like launched into this thing. So I have this adult size baby pool. Have I told you about this? It's an adult size baby pool that's like a tan they call it like a tanning pool, but you could basically just lie down in it and you fill it with water.

speaker-0: It's a bathtub you just take outside.

speaker-1: Yeah, you fill it with water and lie there in in the yard and I I I do this. This is my summer. You wear a little I do. I like go out there, I'm like, let me get a little sun, you know, like

speaker-0: Bikini and you like

speaker-1: Basically Quince Bikini for anyone who buys from Quince the discount luxury one. but yeah, I lie there at lunchtime for like half an hour. in a little and I'm telling Cameroose this and he's looking at me like you're cra like what is she talking about? But anyway, that's that's been my routine lately. My slightly summer studio routine is go out and lie in water. someday I'll have a pool. do you

speaker-0: I put screen. Yeah, I put on some sunscreen and I'm like, okay, I have like I just had lunch, you know, I've twenty minutes before I want to go back to the studio. And I lie on our front lawn in like a little sh well, I lie on our back lawn in a chaise and I just like take in the sun you know for like twenty minutes. Yeah. Get real hot for sure.

speaker-1: Yeah, I know. That's well, I was like worried that my pool was like punctured and it wasn't gonna inflate. no. so it's like my backup plan is a chaise with a hose and just like spray myself as I look.

speaker-0: But you know, I do I do I I need to backtrack for a minute. I do have, I think I did mention I have air conditioning in my studio because I when I don't have it and I'm not using it, my paints become far too runny. And so like I really use the air conditioner, yes, for my own comfort too, but also to keep all of my paints at like, you know, 72 degrees because

speaker-1: interesting.

speaker-0: The minute that the oil paint gets hotter, the linseed oil starts to separate and the and the paints become sort of clumpy and they become more runny. And I can't get the same kind of imposto that I like to have in my in a lot of my work. So for me, I feel like the air conditioning is actually like a professional.

speaker-1: You just really yeah, totally. Well, I definitely had like summers I worked in Bushwick with almost no air conditioning or the air conditioning didn't work, or where I had, I swear, heat stroke a couple of times. Like, you know, s not the most awesome feeling.

speaker-0: Yeah, severely dehydrated and felt like you were getting heat stroke.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, I felt well so Sunday went to Fire Island cause Chris Boja hosted his sh he has a sh he my gosh. Okay, I'm I'm gonna cut all this awkward like intro out. but basically he had a show that was sort of related to the show that you saw at Mrs. It was like a spin-off of that show, but in a historic house on Fire Island in Cherry Grove, where he has a house himself. And he and did a show in this historic house. It was really amazing. We walked down there. It's like in the area of the dunes called the Meat Rack. I don't know how do you go to Fire Island? Have you ever been to Fire Island?

speaker-0: Been I went in twenty fourteen to visit DM Davy and I don't I don't think I've been back since.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so this area, the dunes, the meat the meat rack, there's also

speaker-0: I'm definitely familiar with terminologies for sure.

speaker-1: Yes, yeah. It's sort of in the midst of that. and he had several works installed on the first floor and then this installation on the top floor, which was this really cool, almost like lighthouse, almost the way it it it was stained glass that kind of glowed in this sort of lighthouse or lamp, historic lamp form, but the way that it was in the top room almost felt like a disco ball too. So it was like this very interesting the historic you know, the historic side of fire exactly.

speaker-0: Like a like it just also like a historic lamp.

speaker-1: Yes, I love it. And all a reflection on his life in Fire Island and and his connections there. And like he used wood that's from the planks from cause Fire Island is all boardwalk. Like there's no cement, you know, like all of the streets and everything are there are no cars. So it's all boardwalk and he used those materials and the it was just really, really cool. really beautiful show. And then we had this party. How did I get there? Well, planes, trains and automobiles. It was like Yes. I was the only person in New Jersey going to the beach in Long Island, that's for sure. I was taking the train at like eight AM to Penn Station, Methane. We took the train to Sayville and then took the ferry to Cherry Grove. On the way back, I got the seven PM ferry from Fire Island and I got like home to my house at eleven.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: So it took me four hours. Like I could have flown to Denver or something. Like it's like it's like it was it was quite long. So

speaker-0: Sort of ironic because if you were a bird, it probably would have taken like 10 minutes to get this.

speaker-1: I know. It's really not that far, like miles. And then I I thought about driving, but I'm like, does anyone want to drive back from Long Island on a Sunday night via Manhattan? Like

speaker-0: No, that would have been even more of a nightmare because you don't through Manhattan to get to New Jersey. There's no

speaker-1: Exactly. And I was drinking wine and I was like had was in the sun all day, had a wonderful pool party for like four hours and lots of fun people and like hanging out in the sun. So it was like am I gonna drive, you know, but I definitely had that experience leaving Fire Island like like on the train, you reach this point where it's like you're back in reality. Like it feels like such a fantastical place in a way, like so liberated and fun and celebratory kind of, and then it's like the real world, like kind of the further you get on the train, the more it like asserts itself. And I was thinking I feel that way. And, you know, Fire Island is not really for me. So I can imagine, you know, people who go out there like having that feeling times ten. Like

speaker-0: There are s there is straight people, Fire Island.

speaker-1: Yeah, no. I'm not I know

speaker-0: It can be for you.

speaker-1: I know. I would totally it's not I tried actually when we when we got back because you know I spent like all day yesterday looking up like summer rentals. I was like, what could I even afford? But I mean, you know, they rent those places for like like if you want to go spend a week in Fire Island, I mean you could get like ten people together and get a cool house, but you're gonna you know, I guess it's not that expensive compared to like flying somewhere. Like if you're in New York and you wanna Really luxurious kind of place with a pool near the beach for a week. You don't have to pay any travel fare, you just pay like a couple thousand. Yeah.

speaker-0: Like I I I have like a kind of love-hate relationship with Fire Island, like I feel like many people do, because I love the history of the place and I love you know, what's gone on there over time and how it was important in the early gay history. And I one of my favorite movies is Parting Glances, and that sort of often takes part a lot of it takes place on Fire Island. But I Have always felt kind of alienated by it because of the sort of there is a sentiment of like body fascism there. It's big on like hookup culture. It's big on this sort of sexual liberation idea. And not that I'm into I'm I you know, I'm kind of for all that, but I my social anxiety kind of takes over. I t to me, the idea of vacationing in a place that I have to be so performative at gives lot of anxiety. Like I I I want to go on a vacation where I can sort of drop out or be unseen or I don't want to have to be like showing off my body at the beach or being nude or worrying about this person's looking at me or whatever. Or even just the sort of social hierarchy of like, am I in the cool house? Am I hanging out with the cool people? Like you know, I'm in the bad house. No one likes me. You know like It's almost like to me, feels like a like a high school cafeteria environment, which to me is and people don't feel that way or they like that because they're in the cool group or they're in the you know the the right environment. But I've just never trusted myself to be like, you know, okay with that or not have a lot of anxiety over it. So that's why like I I love and appreciate

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Doesn't feel

speaker-0: Fire Island for many reasons, but I just kind of realize it's not it's not really for my

speaker-1: Right, right. I think I kind of like intuited that. I feel like I I know you well enough. You know, like 'cause it definitely feels like a scene in a kind of way and like it but I I think for me it's the opposite of that. It's like nobody's looking at me. I feel so like I could just wear my bathing suit. It's like, you know, and I'm not it's also I'm not necessarily being judged the way I would, you know, with with other women, you know, so it's like

speaker-0: Totally, yeah. You can

speaker-1: It's kind of like you know, was great in that way. And also I think just this moment in Trump's America where it's like just being around people who are like, Okay, well this is a given. Like we all are that's all Yeah. We all accept that this is totally normal and great and you know, and we don't have to go out here and defend any kind of, you know, lifestyle or whatever. So it's like that part I think was what I felt liberating about.

speaker-0: Yeah. I identify with a quote from Dwayne Michaels that was in an obituary about him where he said, he said, My husband and I weren't Fire Island gays, we weren't provincetown gays. We were, you know, upstate farm garden gays, you know, doing our weird thing, very like isolated. And I was like, that's kind of who I am. Like I like I live in a in a very rural type of setting in gardens and my husband and I garden all day. It's very private. It's not social. It's not right. You know, we're not networking while we're vacationing. That's the other thing about Fire Island that always felt weird to me is that all those people are really actually like networking while they're vacationing, which I get. Great. Good for you. Like that's wonderful. But yeah, because so many of the the gays that I know who

speaker-1: Right, right. Yeah.

speaker-0: get a lot of press or get a lot of opportunities. It all comes out of Fire Island. totally. There's a total like social scene of of people in press, people in PR, people in, you know, galleries, pe you know, all that kind of stuff. And it's a real networking environment, which is fine. Like I'm not judging it like those people

speaker-1: wow. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, yeah.

speaker-0: They're probably more advanced in their careers than I am because I'm living up in the isolated Warwick, you know. But it's just that's why I just don't really gr gravitate. Yeah.

speaker-1: It's not yeah, yeah, yeah. Well this this part

speaker-0: Probably watch the movie Parting Glances if they can.

speaker-1: yeah. totally. I I wrote it down.

speaker-0: Half his partner Jim is in that

speaker-1: No way. my God. Yeah, like the the party though, there were a lot of artists there. Nicola Pottinger and Zahar Vax and their little girl and there were a bunch of people, Robin Williams, Hain, there were, you know, there were a bunch of artists and people from Brooklyn too. And Chris had actually started the Fire Island artist residency. So a bunch of the artists from that were there. So it was very like art centric, which also, you know, I realize it's its own little bubble, you know. So, but that was fun.

speaker-0: Yeah, I love the Fire Island art residency that Chris Bojer did. I think that's a cool thing. And also there's Bafo art residency and the pines. So there's like the Cherry Grove residency and the Pines residency, which have very different vibes. And and I think that one should look into which vibe they like and apply them.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. So yeah. I love it. Halas. Yes. Greece. yeah. Well, I was talking to someone about being Greek. well. I'm I I had a little bit of wine, so like all the conversations are kind of like melding together. Yes, there was a pool party. Yeah.

speaker-0: You like my Grease T shirt? There was a pool party too, so you were all like swimming.

speaker-1: They have a really beautiful place with a pool, which they actually rent out like most of the year. So he was saying even this, they're renting it out for like half the week. So he and I was it Brad or Rod? I'm forgetting his husband. Rod. Rod, Rod. Yeah. They're going to stay in in a hotel. I don't know if they want everyone to maybe

speaker-0: I think it's is But that's actually what everyone does. I mean, that's sort of like the best investment is you buy you pay a shit ton of money for a house there, but you actually probably pay your mortgage times three by renting the

speaker-1: It's like a total income stream. Yeah. They're totally yeah. It's amazing. And it's beautiful beautiful place with tons of art. They had a Paul, Sepuya Peace. They had Eric Hibbett has a really beautiful

speaker-0: He's a huge fan of our podcast, by the way. Every after every episode, he sends me multiple text messages saying, like, I like what you said about this. What did you think about that? Like, and I love it. He's he's a great supporter of the podcast. Thanks, Paul.

speaker-1: That's so awesome. Thank you, Paul. Your work looked great at Chris's. yeah, there was just great art and I I feel like anybody who rents that that, you know, their house is gonna be there's a huge Chris has a huge sculpture that he had made for Fisher's Island in the front yard, which is a candle, this giant candle. like with I think

speaker-0: I love that piece so much.

speaker-1: So good. Yeah, I could see. Yes. I love it. Totally. Exactly. It was so it's in the front of their house. It looks amazing. I mean, it really works, I feel like, in Fire Island. Like also so seamless with his show at the house with the like lighthouse theme and like it's just it's amazing. So great work, Chris. Yeah.

speaker-0: Great that you got to do that.

speaker-1: I did some art and some like beach stuff. Yeah.

speaker-0: Tell me more about N Dash's performance at the Hill Art Foundation. What what were

speaker-1: Yes. So he's a composer. His name is Eli Kessler and he sort of uses a drum set with a lot of different kinds of implements and like he throws fabric over the drums sometimes. It's all improvised. And so he did like an hour performance. He's done some some you know, scores for movies and things like that too. it was really great. It was an amazing performance. I don't know, I love I

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: It doesn't no, no. It was just they were hosting, yeah.

speaker-0: I see. I when you said it was an end dash performance, I thought dance or

speaker-1: yeah, yeah. No. No, no. Choreography. It g it gave me a great opportunity to see the show though. It's awesome. It's really, really great.

speaker-0: show's awesome. I love that I love that kind of work that like has such a strange materiality and like the art painting nerd in me like, how how are they doing it? Can I let me figure this out? Like what what's the process? Like and also the subtle imagery that's in there is really beautiful. It's really it's a very elegant exhibition.

speaker-1: Totally. Her work is so elegant and it does. It always makes me think, you know, as you're sort of working through the way she's putting it together, you're it's a sort of a meditative state or like there's her own kind of logic and the way these things come together and the kind of time that she spends refining elements of it and you're just sort of along on that journey with her. I don't know, it's just like, yeah, I love. I love those. and I know she uses she spends some time in the southwest and actually collects pigments and things when she's out there and she uses those. She different materials. She had given me a ton of recommendations when I did my residency in Albuquerque. So she knows the area super well.

speaker-0: Where did you do a residency in Albuquerque?

speaker-1: So University of New Mexico has the Frederick Hammersley Fellowship and it's like a three month fellowship for a painter. And Frederick Hammersley was kind of a modernist painter who came out of Albuquerque. Yeah. I think he may have had more of a of a career in LA, but eventually ended up in Albuquerque. They have the his home and studio. anyway, so it's I think it's sort of an in an invite thing, but you can definitely follow I think there might be an Instagram account. You could follow them and kind of like look at who's been doing it and kind of yeah.

speaker-0: Remember when you did that? That's when you had the big ridiculous ban.

speaker-1: Yes, that was I had a correct sh department of corrections van with all the seats removed.

speaker-0: The miracle though of that van is that you that you spent many months parking that in the East Village. Because that

speaker-1: Yes, yes. Not successfully.

speaker-0: Working in the East Village is like my hobgoblin. I'm good at it. I'm really good at it. But it's it either takes five minutes or an hour to find.

speaker-1: Totally, totally. my gosh. Yeah, yeah. So I had needed a car when I was out there. Plus I needed to take all the stuff that I was working on a show at the time. So I was like, let me buy this. I think I bought it for like fifteen thousand or something. And then was a you know, I did all the math and it was like if I try to ship this stuff, if I rent a U Haul and then rent a car, it was all more expensive than just buying my own van. Using that as my car. So that was a little ridiculous. Like it anywhere I went in New Mexico, I had this massive, like extra extended van. So somebody had like said, Go this amazing camping spot. It's on this little dirt road. It'll only take you, you know, half an hour. I was three hours along the side of the Rio Grande on this like cliff edge in my extended van, trying not to die to get to this camping spot. Like I like I forgot to tell them I have this massive.

speaker-0: You could have had a party in the back of that van.

speaker-1: I know. I mean it was great for camping. I could like stay back there and like, you know, it was fun, but

speaker-0: This is a real digression, but

speaker-1: Cars, we're back on cars.

speaker-0: But my but my mom had a catering business in the eighties and nineties and she had a big van like that, like a Ford Ocano wagon, you know, that she would take all the seats out and put all the catering stuff in the back of. And it was a black van, you know, it was ridiculous. And she ended up getting a new one and she gave the van to her assistant in the catering business. And he was a gay guy. And he turned the van into like the most ridiculous sex den you could ever possibly have. Because this was like, you know, like the late 80s and in this kind of rural area. You couldn't you couldn't have like gay sex in a hotel. You couldn't, you know, you like and he was still like living with his parents, even though he was like 23 or something. So he bought my mom's van, or my mom gave it to him, and he tricked out the whole interior with like. leopard skin curtains, like running lights inside of it, like a little disco ball kind of thing. The whole back was like a mattress, like a like he like cushion lined the whole back of it and had like silken blankets and stuff. And I remember he drove it over to my mom's business and showed it off to everyone. And and there I know and there I was like I don't know maybe like 10 years old. No idea

speaker-1: Having no

speaker-0: That this was like he's like, This is my camping van, yet it looks like a flying hairdresser, you know, like it looks like liberal. and I I just really as it got older, I was like, that was totally like his his sex van.

speaker-1: like seriously talk about liberation. Also upstate. Upstate like rural gays having like, you know, making do whatever yeah, resourceful, you know.

speaker-0: It had to make do. I really admired it in retrospect.

speaker-1: Totally. I mean the the era of the van because like wasn't that isn't that like the stereotype also of a certain kind of straight guy that would trick out the back of the van with a mattress and like try to yeah. Yeah that that's a whole but but there's a an era an element of risk, I feel like as a woman where you're just like Yeah potentially scarier, I think, for a straight man to have a van like that.

speaker-0: Nobody even drives vans. You know, the SUV is taking over vans, like who has a van in the parts sad. I think vans were kind of cool.

speaker-1: Fans were cool. Remember and they'd have those big like actual bucket seats in the but you could twirl around in them and like yeah, that was fun as hell.

speaker-0: My mom's name was stick shift and the stick was actually like a broomstick. You know, it was like a like a wooden stick that was like three feet high.

speaker-1: This is how old I'm sorry, I'm I'm older than you, so I could

speaker-0: Yeah, but this was in the eighties, you know, like

speaker-1: Well, my grandfather had a station wagon, like a classic, you know, wood paneled station wagon brown. And we were driving that in California with three generations of family in the car. My great grandmother was in the very b no, I think she was in the back seat. My sister and I were in the like, you know how you could sit in the there were seats in the actual hatchback part of it or the trunk. You know, you could sit back there. Yes, facing the back. So we were back there My grandmother, my great grandmother, my parents, my grandfather, and smoke starts coming out of the steering wheel. And we're on the highway in California, and my grandfather's like, that's kind of weird. And my dad's like, I'm pretty sure you should pull over. Like it's not a good sign that there's smoke. And then pretty soon he had no brakes and no, like all the fluids were basically avoiding. Pulled over on the side of the road, the car is catching on fire, and my mom runs around the back. My sister and I jump out. We have no shoes on. We're on the side of the road. She barely gets my she then goes around and gets my great grandmother out who has a walker. We're barely out of the car. The car is in flames. The car ends up completely burning down. Like we end up going like a hundred yards or so away, like further down, so it doesn't explode. We kept thinking it's gonna explode. Like

speaker-0: That's an old fashioned childhood story, Gina.

speaker-1: But that's like, you know, we're driving these pieces of junk until they like kill you basically. Like this car. Yeah, that was and we

speaker-0: That one, but yeah, my dad had a Renault LaCar. So it was this like it was about the size of a matchbook. Like it was a two-door hatchback. No back seat. So not a practical car for a family of yesterday have a back seat. It was two front seats.

speaker-1: Lacar, I remember Lacar. Yes, I remember though. it just didn't have one. Your car it just didn't have one. You guys don't like back seats.

speaker-0: Yeah. And so my brother and I would lie down in the back of this little Renault where you couldn't even lie down. You had to l sit there like your little astronaut, you know, like with your sort of website. And it had no interior paneling. So all the wires inside the car were all like exposed. And this was also a car that had no air conditioning, no radio. I don't it maybe had heat. I think I think it did have heat. But nothing worked in it. The gas gauge didn't work. My dad had to count mileage, like sort of figure out like how many mile. I mean, this is sort of the the type of stingy old fashionedness of like my parents, like, this car, it just needs to get us from point A to point B. Right. It doesn't need to have any bells, any whistles, nothing. Yes. And it was read and it said on the side of it in really big letters, l it's ridiculous.

speaker-1: So, Yeah. I loved

speaker-0: Ridiculous. This I love.

speaker-1: it. Yeah, I love I mean I th my first show was called Le Sai and I think it was like influenced by those cars. There was a time in America where we had cars on the road that said Le Car.

speaker-0: I know this was like a real eighties car. And I think that the gas gauge, I mean, this is now in retrospect, but I think the gas gauge didn't work and the radio didn't work because my brother and I opened up the wires because they were all exposed inside the car and we were bored in the back of the car. I think we're playing wires. Yeah. And we basically broke the car. But the car finally broke down on the George Washington Bridge and my dad was coming back from JFK at like

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: At like midnight from like a trip to Africa and and the car broke down and and what do you do in that era? I think he had to like walk to like Fort Lee, New Jersey, across the bridge, like call some my mom who maybe had to drive down to the George Washington Bridge. I don't know. Like the that kind of drama doesn't exist anymore because

speaker-1: Well like triple A. Did we have triple A right. You'd have to walk somewhere to call Triple A. you had to like Well, I know that the the gas gauge thing, that was something that was wrong with the car that burned up. Like it didn't have a gas gauge anymore. It didn't have a mileage gauge. And my dad was saying when we're getting in, like

speaker-0: Exactly.

speaker-1: Is that that seems like a problem? Like that seems like a bad sign as I load my entire family into this car. Like, is this safe? Yeah. I feel like when that starts to go, the car is on its way out.

speaker-0: What's funny is my dad bought the lacar from a priest, and then he sold it after like at a certain point, the car was too dangerous for a family. And he sold it to a farmer from Iceland who had a sheep farmer who lived here in Warwick. And he had like a Renault farm. Like he would take old Renaults and use all the parts and stuff and drive them around his sheep farm. So I feel like the the Lacar ended up having like a nice pastoral

speaker-1: Yes. my God. One more terrible car story, but that reminded me that my Honda Civic that I had in my early 20s. I was invited to go in the summertime to West Virginia. I was living in the city and I had a terrible boyfriend. This guy was like the OTB. Does anyone remember off track betting? He was like a big, Big Yankee fan. He worked in the shipping department when I worked at this like art publisher. so he had nothing to do with the art world. And he it was just he was just a bad boy. Let's just be real. This guy was like the bad boy of all bad boys. And my dad, my dad was like, Don't you dare take that car because it was on its last legs. And he was like, If you drive to West Virginia in that car, of course, my bad boyfriend was like Hey, you know what, honey? We can totally drive this car. Are you kidding me? I couldn't, you know. We break down halfway. We're sort of over the border, I think, to West Virginia, but we're in the middle of nowhere, West Virginia, broken down on the side. And I don't remember. I think we called a tow truck company who drove us to the next town. And then some but I was like so we were, I was so irresponsible. He was kind of a piece of shit. We were like, we're just leaving it there. We're gonna go party. And then I got back, my dad's like, What happened to the car? I'm like, it's somewhere in West Virginia. And he's like leave your car. You can't just leave your car on the side of the road in West Virginia. Anyway, that was actually that is wow. But but it's like your license plates, everything. I don't know, you gotta get that shit back, your registration. I don't know. So it was a whole thing and I was in a lot of trouble, even though I I paid for the car, you know, whatever. He was just worried, I think, that

speaker-0: It's gone. Don't worry about it. Well you probably can just leave it. Yeah.

speaker-1: We would have died or gotten, you know, kidnapped or yeah.

speaker-0: Well, on another note I wanted to remark on a notable passing in the art world, which was our collector James Wagner died. Did you know James Wagner?

speaker-1: that yeah, I knew h yeah, I didn't know that.

speaker-0: So he died at 85. He lived a very long and amazing, incredible life. He was really he and his partner Barry Hoggard were just great art collectors of like emerging newer artists at lower price points. They weren't interested in big, fancy, showy stuff. They were interested in supporting young artists at small galleries. And they were great and they would have like little parties. I went to some events and parties at their house. And James would tell me all about how he was involved in Act Up. And he would, he was in the St. Patrick's Dying event where they all went into St. Patrick's Cathedral and laid on the floor to pretend like they were dead. He was involved with that. He was involved with climbing to the top of the Statue of Liberty and unfurling AIDS related act. Activism banners. He went to marches organizing. He was very important, a quiet member, but very important person in the Act Up movement. And he was great at telling those stories and just really the kind of collector that I feel sadly you just don't have as much in the art world anymore. The kind of lower to mid price point collector who supports all the sort of emerging galleries. Yeah. So anyway, I just wanted to I just want to reiterate that James Wagner was a great member of the New York City art world. And also in Germany and Berlin, he was very involved there too. And I just wanted to remark about it. So look him up. You know, there was another Patti Johnson did a nice piece in Hyperallergic About.

speaker-1: Totally. cool. Yeah, that's really well

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: What else is going on? We said we were gonna bitch about people who the the sort of language of

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: Or the language of the

speaker-0: Something that I had noticed recently and I did want to bring up with you and I mentioned it is something that would be fun to talk about, is I've been noticing now the overuse of the word community in in contexts that I think they're just using that for networking. Like I feel like they're they're it's all about like, in community is so important. Bring people together in this community. this project is all about. The community, bringing the community together. Or now people are figuring out what the art world is about and the market and whatnot. And they're like, well, the art world should now be about community. And I feel like there's a lot of good intention in that. And people are using the word, I think, in the right way. But I've started to notice it being co-opted by people that are I feel like it's extremely self-serving. It's a way of almost like humble bragging. So it sounds like they're doing this for other people, but they're really just doing it for them and I feel like that that word has been really over used. And the art world has a tendency to do that. Sort of take like some kind of word that is more holistic or meaningful or open, but really use it more towards like a capitalist networking kind of it's just all really about me just.

speaker-1: So Mm-hmm.

speaker-0: you know, raising my profile kind of thing. I don't know. What what you think about that?

speaker-1: Well, I I think some of that language is coming out of social media and the internet. It's all coming out. Yeah. And so it's sort of being co-opted. And it's strange when it's like co-opted in those artistic spaces where you're just like and sometimes that that phenomenon of like the way that people speak, you know, in their Instagram captions, but then you know that person is not like that in real life. Like the kind of like coming from a place of care and like all of that. And you're just like you know, like I don't know. But like but you, you know, just like the there's just this certain I mean I've noticed it more. I feel like I've heard like comedians and actors sort of it's sort of more insufferable even when you see it in that community of like actors and when people really go into this space of like but it's also just that the algorithm is never satisfied. Like you must always be doubling down with like

speaker-0: You're an asshole. What do you what the hell do you mean by

speaker-1: You have to always be exposing yourself, exposing yourself, right? And you have to be the kindest version of yourself and you have to you have to put your secrets all out there. It's like it's always like dragging more and more of you out into this space so that it can just use that for views, you know. It's kind of

speaker-0: I think also because we're in a moment where nobody knows where the art market or world is going and it feels like it got so global and so unwieldy that a lot of people the solution that they're proffering is well, we need to get back to community. We need to bring this back to you know the local scene or or it's for everyone or it's egalitarian or let's have these. this event or something that's for everyone. And I feel like there's some people who are really doing that from a very honest and open place. But I also now I'm seeing it so much and from so many different angles and I'm starting to feel a little cynical about that word community and wondering what do they really mean? What it what parse the what what their intention is with that. I sometimes get a feeling that it's not as altruistic.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: Or it's naive in a way, or it just empty and it makes

speaker-1: Right. Right. Right. That's true too. That's true too. I mean, it's hard to read anything that's done on social media as not self-interested in the end. Like that's why I mean that's where the like humble brag idea comes from is like, you know, you can never really like I was like excited to post like we got an electric car. And I was like, is that gonna seem really obnoxious and like pushy? Like am I, you know, like you're just like there is no way to I don't know, to not look like a douchebag at some

speaker-0: Many years ago, I knew someone who was a big advocate for adjuncts. Like, like he he was doing all this adjunct advocacy and trying to build a community of adjuncts and sort of organize them. And it was really amazing, but I always felt like there was something slightly cynical about it, like he was doing it really for his own. self-promotion and like raising his own profile. And I predicted that the minute he got a full time tenure job, he'd drop all that stuff. Like and he did. And it was exactly what happened. The minute he got like a full time tenure job, all the adjunct a advocacy was dropped, all that community thing was dropped. And I was like, I called it. Like I knew like and and that's the kind of so that I feel like I see that now with like

speaker-1: It's time.

speaker-0: community in the art world that that there's I feel like it's not really I don't know.

speaker-1: It's just something. It's tough. I know. It's it's tough because the art world is one of those communities where those communities do lead to things, individual things for people. You know, like networking does. And it is that always that fine line between friendship and like meeting someone who then, you know, is like, I wanna include you in the show or, you know, so it's kind of like

speaker-0: put a lot of pressure on full-time tenured faculty to actually work harder for adjunct equity. I I I would always get annoyed because I felt like a lot of people would get into a tenured full-time job and then be like, I'm I'm good. I got mine. Like I know

speaker-1: Right. Right, right, right, right.

speaker-0: And I who was an adjunct for thirteen years was like, yeah, but what about the rest of us? Like you were like us, like you know, you're now in a position where you actually have a little power and you can't just get fired. So that so your advocacy is actually more and more important.

speaker-1: It's super important. Yeah, absolutely.

speaker-0: I'm I'm committed to, I mean, this is now a tangent, but I'm committed to adjunct equity. Even though I'm a full-time professor now, my position is just the temporary substitute. It's not like a done deal. Like I don't know where it's all heading. But I absolutely the believe in adjunct advocacy. I think the adjunct crisis in the art and one in in higher ed is terrible. And the art world of higher ed is even worse. And I'm absolutely committed to the unions that fight for it. And the minute I get a more permanent full-time job, I'm gonna work even more tirelessly for adjunct advocacy because it's absolutely like a two-tier system that leaves a few with a lot and most with nothing, and is wrong. And it is everyone's responsibility who's in higher ed or in the art world of I red to do something about it.

speaker-1: Totally. That's wow. I'm important. No, no, no. It's really good. It's really important. Yeah, totally. It's it's so important. I mean, yeah. There's so few opportunities already and then those opportunities are not compensated properly. It's at all. I mean

speaker-0: Right. I for unions like I I was lucky to to get in at the City University of New York and they have a very good union that has fought for adjunct rights and they had long-term adjunct contracts and they could get health benefits for adjuncts. And I love that. Like that's what I love about the City University of New York is that they have a strong union, it's the PSC union, and they work tirelessly to Get more full-time jobs to get like lecturer full-time jobs, which are sort of not tenure-related full-time jobs, but give you a salary, give you benefits. that's what I have now. And it's a game changer. It allows me to dig it deeper well at the school. I work more with students. I can focus on my work more. I'm more energized in my pedagogy and in.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: In general, like my energy level for teaching is great because I feel like I'm bad at getting compensated. I mean it really is like a night and day kind of thing. And so that I've seen now both sides and I'm like, okay, some

speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Totally, totally. It's so important, like the union part of it. Like just being a respected Yeah, you know, respected professional who's giving their life to yeah.

speaker-0: Universities now work like large corporations. They're basically like Walmarts or like it's all about the bottom line. It's all about sucking the most out of the book or for giving them for the least. And so we need unions to protect the workers because the administration I think the administration is committed to higher ed, but they're not committed to c fully compensating.

speaker-1: That's a sort Right, right.

speaker-0: And putting the budgets towards the personnel who keep the place alive and make it good.

speaker-1: Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's really

speaker-0: That's almost for another episode. I could probably

speaker-1: I know. I mean, I was in an art I was in a union because I was in the teachers union in New York. And that was just yeah, it's like night and day. Well, how many people would want to be a public school teacher in New York and not be in a union? Like the union makes it possible for kids to get educated in New York at all because the stress that's put on that system, the class sizes and everything, it makes it like you know, extremely difficult for people to wanna even have that job. So yeah, you have to really love it. But then with the union at least you feel like, okay, you know, I'm somebody recognizes how hard I'm working and, you know.

speaker-0: There's a fast embargain to the union though, because I also at at the City University of New York, because the union is so powerful, it often does allow people to comfortably underperform and not be held to account. And I do sometimes feel like that's the sort of bad side of the union where there's such an overprotection. that some people do invariably take advantage of it and it's very hard to get those underperforming or checked out. There's people who are like totally like checked out. They like don't even show up. They even professors do. and it's like absolutely impossible to entract them you know track them from it. and so that, you know, I'm I c I can admit that there's like both a really good side and some

speaker-1: Get them out. Yeah.

speaker-0: Not so great sign.

speaker-1: But then you have like idiots at every job you work at. So whether you're in a union or not. I've worked a lot of jobs. In fact, I was we were talking to our I think it was our neighbor about Love Island, which is this like very dumb reality show. that every yeah, a lot of people are watching.

speaker-0: Yeah,

speaker-1: And we were like and the w my friend was like, Don't you feel dumber when you watch it? She's like, I feel dumber when I go to work. You know? I was like, she's like, it's no different. You know, at least this is like no stakes, you know? I was like thinking, Yeah, there are a lot of idiots out there and a lot of people promoted for the wrong reason or like they you know, lots of Like, it's a meritocracy. it's not. Like No, I'm just I'm just No, no. I'm just saying I'm saying in corporate America, it's not a meritocracy. And there are a lot of anywhere. So it's like, you know, you're always gonna work with some some people who are and you would love to go through and pick off those people and be like, let's put full performing

speaker-0: Okay, do not open that can of worm cancelled. I will get See anywhere.

speaker-1: adults in here, but she just that's not how life works unfortunately.

speaker-0: They have legislation in the Italian Congress right now trying to reform the higher education hiring system in Italy because for so long it's been so based on nepotism and and also like the department building the the prospectus for the employee specifically for some one person. You know, so they only so only this one person is qualified for this job. So course they get it. And and it's become so bad and so ridiculous that the actual government has to start drafting leg legislation to make the higher education hiring process for professors actually like more like a meritocracy. Like you actually have to like have fuller credentials and pass certain exams and things. because as we all know, you know very little.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: Little, very, very rarely is the very best person hired for the job. But that is totally that's that's a that's a

speaker-1: That's a conversation for another day. What else do we want?

speaker-0: I'd like to talk about the giant black bear that walked past my kitchen window this morning. I wanted to tell you about that. I was I was filling the dog bowl with some water, and this big black thing passes in front of my window. I thought I was hallucinating. It was like the Titanic passing my window. But it moved at such a clip that by the time I went to get my phone, because I wanted to take a picture of it.

speaker-1: geez.

speaker-0: you know, prove that I saw it. it was gone. Like it vanished. It was really weird. I thought I hallucinated. I was like, I think I hallucinated this bear. But I texted my neighbor and I said, I think there's a giant black bear heading your way. And within like a minute, he's like, Yep, just flew past me. So this thing was like at a clip. So don't know where it was going, but they knew

speaker-1: She's little It was fast.

speaker-0: And they move so gracefully. They move like in this very elegant kind of like way.

speaker-1: But what do you do? What happens if you're in the yard and and if Yeah, okay. Have you ever had to do that? Or have you ever does that that gets some weird?

speaker-0: I have bells. I have bells around that I I would say I would say every year we have at least two or three bear sightings. And a bunch of neighbors will text each other like and you know, and half the time I'm in the city and I'm like, nothing you know, nothing I can do.

speaker-1: Yeah. That's good that you like have a warning system for

speaker-0: I you know, I we make sure all garbage is always in. We don't food out, we clean the grill, we don't you know, because they will be destructive.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jeez. Yeah, that is so scary.

speaker-0: And that was only moments after I w walked downstairs and saw a completely dripped apart rabbit, bunny rabbit, on our carpet. My cat brought in a big rabbit and just ripped it to pieces. Because the cat always brings his prey in and destroys it.

speaker-1: Just Yeah.

speaker-0: It's ridiculous. So it's like the wild kingdom.

speaker-1: my gosh. When you said the big, I thought you were gonna say like the big elephant in the room that was some some giant art story, but we were talking about John Winkler. John Winkler is out at cultured. Yeah, but we we were talking about the summer and just not being able to record every week because we're kind of busy on the weekends in this way. And like, but also how hard it is to only record every two weeks because we forget what the big thing was.

speaker-0: And call Which I had many conspiracy theories about.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. So

speaker-0: My going one is my going one, and I even wrote to John Winkler and I was like, at first I thought it was about like the politics. I thought, your mistake was like wading into, you know, Israel Palestine politics. Like that was that was your first mistake. but then he responded and he's like, no, like that's actually like not what it was. And then I thought more about it, and I was like, I wrote back to him, I was like, no, actually, your mistake was you were critical.

speaker-1: Uh-huh.

speaker-0: Yeah. And I think that and then he didn't respond to that one. Because I and now I'm like, maybe that was true. And when I really parsed his review of Duran Lamberg's show and I really looked at the comments on his Instagram post about the review, I'm like, he got at loggerheads with cultured because he actually dared to criticize an artist.

speaker-1: Okay.

speaker-0: Who's beloved, you know, every like so many people love Jeron Lamberg, they love his work, he's very deeply supported, and and the audacity of John Winkler to question the work, I think is what actually, in a way, not maybe not directly, but I think that created the environment that cultured was like I don't know if you can really be that critical. Like the blowback was too

speaker-1: Yeah. So would you say community community stood up for

speaker-0: Well community stepped in, but but it wasn't even like John Winkler was saying Jeron Landberg was like a bad painter. He was just questioning if you if if the style and way of painting he was doing can live up to the kind of political messaging, or you know, he was kind of parsing more like you know, how painting can live up to politics, like and does it deliver. In political messaging and is it enough? And you know, but people thought it was more of a kind of direct take of Lambert himself. And that's my problem with the whole thing is that people again can't separate art criticism from the actual person that they like. And and so if you criticize their work, people will act like you insulted their mother. Or act like that you insulted their, you know, be state of being, their soul or something. And and that's certainly how people reacted. And so I I feel like that in a sad way, John Winkler made the sort of cardinal mistake of of criticizing in a way that people couldn't handle.

speaker-1: Right, right. Well it's like people always want more criticism. That's the big thing is like things are not critical enough. And then as soon as it when it or when it happens to somebody you really care about and if you're with someone who's going through it and trying to make a show and like, you know, and who knows how like the one time I we were talking about this at the pool party, like all the times that we've spoken up for people and it's like because people see people in a certain way, But you're if you're really friends with them and you've seen what they've gone through to make the show or whatever, you're just like, you just there's a part of you that's like, you know, and you don't know, like the one time I spoke up for a friend who was being lambasted for like these market paintings, just selling to the top one percent, whatever, and like hadn't sold anything from the show, you know, and I'm thinking this is a criticism that is completely, you know. Off base, you know, this person doesn't know. So somet so I weighed it in and was like, This is, you know, seems like is that the only thing you can say is to critique a market pro you know, like what does that mean? You know, go a little deeper or something. I don't even remember what I said, but it was like that's the part where you feel, you know, you you wanna stick up. And I'm not saying that's the case with Doran's show or well but the way.

speaker-0: The way that John Winkler also wrote his like goodbye made it seem like he had parted ways with cultured over their criticism, over like integrity of the criticism sort of thing. That's what made me think like, maybe that this is pointing in that direction. That's part of the crisis of criticism.

speaker-1: Over the idea. And it's a very delicate like ecosystem or d delicate balance of all of the things that these magazines are doing. Because like who's actually reading those reviews? It's us. It's literally just us. It's gotta be a small number of people. Like how many people are reading the article?

speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. I would like to ask culture what their numbers are on those reviews.

speaker-1: just like what are those reviews? And now you've pissed off you've pissed off half of or you've pissed off most of them. I mean, are we the people that are actually buying or yeah, I don't know. It's just a very delicate balance. I mean, I'm just happy for there to be any sort of art writing. I mean, in this and and I also think like I was thinking about this, I went to this event with Keith. upstate like Riesling weekend in the Finger Lakes, which was like amazing and fun in Geneva. And they were talking about the exact same thing within the wine space. And at some point you also have to realize like how implicated we all are because we are all spending more time on our phones looking at bullshit. We just are. And so of course everything, you know it's like it's gonna seek its lowest level or whatever. So every time you click on some stupid shit on your phone, art criticism dies a little bit. You know, like every time you read some dumb thing or watch, you know, some clip from a podcast. No, I'm just kidding. But like

speaker-0: He also said he's like, don't worry everyone, I'm not starting a substack. And I kind of laughed because I feel like that that's sort of been like the thing in the art world is like the writer leaves the big publication. It's like, well, now I'm starting a substack. And I love the idea that there are these independent ways that they can get support.

speaker-1: Going out on my own.

speaker-0: But it also is kind of the point where their their qu you know, community again, can't afford to be subscribing to twenty five different writer sub stacks just to get the news, you know, and

speaker-1: No, no, that's true too. Need something new to come in and rank everyone. No, I'm just kidding. So we know what to follow. No, no, no. yeah. I don't know. It's kind of a mess. We're definitely in like a weird moment with attention and criticism and yeah, it's Yeah, so it's interesting to see

speaker-0: Mart Mod. will all shake out because a lot of old timers say, Well, it's always cyclical. It's everything will come back. The market will come back. The you know what criticism will come back. But then I also hear different reports of people who are like, actually no.

speaker-1: This is totally new. Yeah. It's totally new. Yeah. Yeah. I was having this thought about like, well, this is like a little journey I went on with this book that I was reading about this woman whose husband was a hedge funder. And I was like, it, you know, he just destroyed their marriage. Basically, it was over one day. Like he was a different person. And just like the way that it all fell apart was that book. Yeah. yeah. The one.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: Belle Burden, the one what's it called? Strangers. Yeah, it's yeah. It's good. It's really good. I mean it's it's unrelatable in some aspects. Yes, she's extremely privileged, wealthy, et cetera, et cetera. But well that's what's remarkable about it is that at the end of the day, all of the emotions and all that shit, you really can't buy. You know, you really can't have enough money not to like not to worry about and

speaker-0: Beach read kind of thing.

speaker-1: But the I started thinking like part of it is this kind of marriage where somebody works eighty hours a week and someone takes care of the kit. Like that's a that's a recipe for disaster. But the other part of it is is there something about being a hedge funder for some people where it becomes their entire perspective and hedge funders specifically bet against things and there was a certain way that he came back into that relationship or left it. That felt like, did he just bet against this entire setup? Like he could only see the downsides. Like, you know, and I was thinking, okay, now go with me as I go to people who are making, cause the people that are making money right now are making so much money. Like the AI, the AI revolution, those people. And it's like on the one hand, is art just not A big enough asset in some ways. Like we all we all sit around thinking, well, that was like a million dollars, you know, we're like that was 10. But on the scale of wealth that we're talking about, does it not even rate like compared to the amount of money they're making? But I was also thinking if you're deeply invested in AI and all of the things that you think it will bring, does that not influence the way that you think about art and artists? Does that not diminish the way that you actually think about us and whether or not so anyway, I was This is all just Gina fantasizing and creating a reality, but I was I was thinking perhaps this is something that's going on too, is this diversion I was you know

speaker-0: Yeah, well I I my thumb because I listened to this interview on Josh Citerella's podcast, Doom Scroll, and he interviewed this German filmmaker and professor of digital media named Hito Steyr Steyer.

speaker-1: no, she's amazing. She's the video artist who's in the show at New Museum. The one she's amazing. She's brilliant.

speaker-0: yeah, well she is an interview. I everyone should run out and listen to it because it's one of the more brilliant interviews I've heard in a long time. She really has so many fantastic topics. And she talks about how exactly what you're saying is the art market isn't going to come back because of gaming betting, like gaming bedding, whatever that's called. Like like there's She was just saying there's different asset classes now that are more fun, that are more better tax shelter than than art. Like better tax evasion. She's like they they've developed better tax evasion. And so the so there's not as many rich people who want to buy art to evade the whatever kind of taxes. Talks about the the betting culture of like there's the like

speaker-1: That's interesting. Okay. Interesting and they're better off.

speaker-0: People are instead of betting on art, they're betting on like, what day is the Strait of Hormuz going to open? What day is King Charles going to die? You know and that's sort of taken a lot of the money

speaker-1: Holy shit, yeah. That's that's so crazy.

speaker-0: It's just a weird it's it's with

speaker-1: It's a wonderful thing about that. It's weird to think too that like actually our issue is not like the art world being so wealthy, you know, wealthy at the high end that actually we're not valuable enough. Like even I mean we're definitely not valuable enough in terms of intellectual value. Like they don't see that. But but even in terms of monetary value, we're not valuable enough and we're not I guess we're not predictable enough, I got at some level, if that's what you're into, but you know, it sort of puts it in perspective.

speaker-0: So I don't know how we fight for our own relevancy.

speaker-1: Well, I think we have to fight because we need to get back to democratic values and non corruption. Because I think a lot of this is being enabled by corruption and all sorts of tax loopholes and all of the shit that Trump is bringing with him on the litany of chaos and horrible things. The number one thing is the corruption. And the corruption is is is giving them is giving them a space in which to just

speaker-0: out of control. It's pretty

speaker-1: We need to bring them back to like buy by

speaker-0: Good luck. I I I have no idea how we're gonna do that because once you start opening those floodgates, then everyone wants a piece of that. Once corruption is seen as sort of okay, then even people who may have been on the good side of that spectrum are like, well, everyone's doing it. I'll take a kickback, you know, like a little bit of a disease.

speaker-1: Yeah, but theoretically it's not it eventually ends with like Chernobyl. It eventually ends with the end of the Soviet bloc. Because that was like a real corrupt that was corruption and just putting, you know, people in power that didn't know their jobs, do this, do that, yes men, all of that. And then eventually something happens where you're such a threat to the world.

speaker-0: Well it does. No, it eventually ends up

speaker-1: that your entire society collapses. Exactly and so we're either gonna figure corruption out or we're gonna go down in flames. I mean that's or if Yeah. I mean in the developing world collep you know, corruption is like part sadly part of the way that things you know, so it's it's just not a good place if you Yeah, I don't for another time. Well last time we ended on God. This time we ended up on political corruption. We have we have to give back to God at some point and the artist way and

speaker-0: Yeah. I like some of the feedback we got on God and the artist's way. Like I and I feel like we got some good feedback on the artist.

speaker-1: Yeah, me too. Totally. And I've had good conversations with people that made me think like, I actually enjoy just the conversation of how they grew from it. That doesn't mean I'm gonna like read it and do it, but like I now I have their ideas like of how, you know, like something like an artist date. And I was thinking like in this late capitalist moment, like an artist date for me is like taking a nap. Like that's really what I just You know, to not be on the grindstone constantly and like just

speaker-0: Christy is weeding.

speaker-1: nice. Yeah. Do you enjoy it? You love

speaker-0: I love the like repetitive focus of picking weeds. It feels like it there's no there's no economic benefit to it. There's no you know capitalist. Yeah, never

speaker-1: Yeah, it's I It never ends. It's like easy. Yes. It never ends. It's a real work.

speaker-0: Yeah. And it's also part of a spiritual practice through the gurjeef work that I've been involved with for a long time. Where manual labor and a sort of meditative state is part of you wanna you wanna sort of take your consciousness and put it outside of yourself and you watch yourself doing like the manual labor. It's a really interesting experience.

speaker-1: it sounds so peaceful. Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: Anyway. All right. Well we gotta

speaker-1: Well I guess we should go. We're now at an hour and a half. We had some technical difficulties, but also like this is for two weeks. Like we'll be back in two weeks. Enjoy a little bit of extra

speaker-0: Yeah. And remember also I wanna remind people that it is good if they can review or comment like on the Apple iTunes because that really does help.

speaker-1: that's really helpful. It does. And we generally have good audio quality, right? Because somebody was like you have bad audio quality. I know we're doing everything. but I think in general it's pretty good. I did that one really shitty two minute one from the computer downstairs that could be if you only listen to that, then we have terrible quality. But in general we have okay quality. If you mention that, that would be so nice too. Like decent quality. Do we can handle it?

speaker-0: My mom was like, You were talking on and on about something, and I was like, Tim, let Gina speak. Shut up. no.

speaker-1: No, my god, no. I mean all my stupid little anecdotes about my childhood where I sound like I'm ten years old. I'm like, I can't bear it. I can't when I hear myself talk, I'm like, just shut up, Gina. Just shut up.

speaker-0: You know, the the Joey Hart just dropped his Deep Color podcast and I'm just dropped today. Yeah and I can't bring myself to listen to it because I just don't want to hear myself talk.

speaker-1: yeah, you're Yeah. Well I'll listen to it. I know it's

speaker-0: Listen to it tell me if it's okay because I can't do it. Like I never listen to these podcasts after

speaker-1: Yeah, everybody else go listen to it too.

speaker-0: Say it, drop it. Yeah, listen to it if you want to hear more details about la

speaker-1: Color. Yes. Okay. La vie like or lee. No. Le car. Yeah. Le Psi. Can't wait. But there's gotta be pictures. I know. Everything's so fresh. Okay Tim, so fun. Great. Great to see you. Talk to you soon. Okay, bye. You too. Bye.

speaker-0: Lovely. I don't know if I would specific the car, but I can probably