GIna Beavers: It's awesome. no. Wait, say that again? Timoteo: I'm Kaz playing Saison. GIna Beavers: Okay, sorry. Hello, this is Gina Beavers. This is Gina. Timoteo: And this is Timothy Holm. GIna Beavers: And welcome to Unstretched. Unstretched, yay. I was trying to sound Timoteo: Unstretched, unstretched. GIna Beavers: very like CNN or something, like very news anchor. This Timoteo: Hello, welcome to Unstretch. GIna Beavers: is yeah, even though yeah, the summer version of Unstretched is like me trying madly to gather things in my brain. And yeah, it's Timoteo: yes. So many little loose ends, little strings GIna Beavers: Loose ends, the routine. I feel like my routine is all broken down. Like we're going away every weekend and then I come back and I'm doing laundry and grocery shopping like on Monday when I would normally be like working, you know, like so I'm just I'm a little scattered. Timoteo: I was teaching an online drawing class at Lehman College, which is sort of putting GIna Beavers: yeah. Timoteo: back to the rhythm of like a schedule and a routine, although GIna Beavers: Mm, mm-hmm. Timoteo: asynchronous, which I love because it's like I build this course online, like through Brightspace that CUNY uses. And I built the whole classes, this like, you know, do it on your own time, submit by the deadline. You know, I give feedback, there's little critique forums where e each student gives each other feedback. It's really super fun. Like I actually love teaching GIna Beavers: it's awesome. Timoteo: these online classes because, especially at CUNY, where so many of the students have full-time jobs or have children or have families or caretakers, having a asynchronous online art class, which on the face of it sounds so stupid, is actually highly effective and really quite fun. GIna Beavers: that's really great. And when you say asynchronous, you mean they can get on they can take it I mean, log on and do different parts at their own pace. Timoteo: They do it at their own pace. Yeah. Like like I like I don't I don't hold part of the class GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: like live on Zoom kind of thing. Like I've recorded videos, GIna Beavers: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really cool. Timoteo: I post videos, I give written feedback, like in the in the forums, they post images and I give them critique and feedback. They give each other critique and feedback. It's really cool, actually. GIna Beavers: So cool, so cool. I wanna take that class. Yeah. Timoteo: It's fun. I also teach one on the Italian Renaissance at a small Catholic private school. Well, it's like the it's the history of the GIna Beavers: wow. That's awesome. Wow, they're lucky. Timoteo: city of Florence and the Italian Renaissance and it's like GIna Beavers: wow. Timoteo: a online asynchronous class. I teach that during the winters. That's like my winter gig. Always got a gig. Always got a gig going, you know. GIna Beavers: That's amazing. okay. That's your yeah. Yeah, yeah. What's the gig? What's the gig? I know, yeah. Timoteo: But summer, yeah, I mean it's been it's been hot, it's been hazy. That like crazy wild fire in Canada made everything yellow. GIna Beavers: yeah, that was so crazy. Is that still the going on? Yeah. jeez. my gosh. Timoteo: It's coming back apparently, but from some other direction, I think. But it was so weird to see the shadows, like it would cast yellow-orange shadows in the garden and around the house. And it was very apocalyptic and the birds would stop singing like during an eclipse. It was very, very weird. GIna Beavers: it's so weird. Yeah, I've had like weather. It's felt I I went to see my god, my brain. I woke up and at 3 30 and then didn't fall back asleep till 5 30. Brian Ballot invited me to Donald Bachelor Studio. yeah. yeah. Timoteo: What? Wait, why was I not invited? Why didn't you invite me? GIna Beavers: I'm sorry. I didn't know, but do you wanna you should let him know. I'm Timoteo: Wait, Donald Bachelor's studio that's upstate. GIna Beavers: No, that's here. Yeah. They brought Timoteo: kiddy. GIna Beavers: yeah, I think they closed down a lot of his upstate studio and brought they're bringing everything to the city. So it's sort of like an exhibition space, different bodies of work. They've they're uncovering, you know, unpacking different things. He was like so insanely prolific and like so many Timoteo: yeah. GIna Beavers: drawings. So Brian is going through and cataloging all the different kinds of drawings and then putting them in books. Timoteo: Did he work for Donald Bachelor? Is he one of the myriad artists who like work for Donald Bachelor? GIna Beavers: Yeah, he worked for him for a long time and then they brought him back in the foundation as part of the foundation to like yeah, so it was really great. They took me around and explained different yeah. Timoteo: my god so I am like I'm insanely jealous like that I'm kind of I'm I almost like can't continue to the podcast right now because I'm I I loved that I I like my a great life regret is actually never got to meet him and I knew all these like crazy GIna Beavers: I'm so sorry, I didn't know that you felt that way about well then you have to go. Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: gays who like partied hard at his loft and also all these like crazy GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: straight dudes who like partied hard my brother partied hard at his loft like GIna Beavers: Wow, wow, wow. Yeah. yeah. Timoteo: I feel like everything that party is so unbelievably hard at this guy's loft and I never was invited, never had an inn. It's a great life regret. Probably actually got out of it by the skin of my teeth, but I've just kind of always been like a little obsessed with Donald Batchelor. GIna Beavers: Yeah. my gosh. that's amazing. Where you you have to go, they they're trying to have more artists come. They want they want it to be like a living collection and like, you know, they're the ultimate authorities on all of his work, so Timoteo: It will rope me up. Rope me up in GIna Beavers: Yes, Timoteo: that. GIna Beavers: yes, you're gonna go next. Yeah, you're gonna and I had Timoteo: Okay. GIna Beavers: no idea or I would have yeah. 'cause I went I I tagged it on I was going to see Alyssa Bennett and Naomi Fry discuss at at Hauser discuss Carol Rama and that was at like five thirty, so I I stopped at Donald Bachelor's studio first and then I managed it's like twenty eighth Timoteo: Where is his last studio? It was in China. GIna Beavers: it's near the fashion district. It's like It's like twenty eighth and fifth or somewhere around there. Yeah. And I managed to time it. So right as I walked out, the skies opened up and then it like torrential for my entire walk, my like twenty minute walk to Chelsea. I was just and then as as soon as I get there it like stop. So it was like, How did I wow, that was really amazing that I did that. but yeah, and then I Timoteo: That's the murder ball of the weather in New York. GIna Beavers: Yeah, totally. Well, and then that the talk with Naomi Fry and Alyssa Bennett was amazing. and they Timoteo: What was that all about? GIna Beavers: well, so they have works in a group show, and then I think they also have a solo show of Carol Rama at a different location. This is the one in Chelsea. so I didn't actually see that show, but I they showed a lot of the works that are in the show. Timoteo: They were talking about Carol Rama's work. GIna Beavers: Yeah, and also her as sort of a character, as this kind of like scary female. archetype and yeah Timoteo: I only knew her as a very female archetype. Can you tell us more GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: about like what what what what how does she transcend that? GIna Beavers: well she was Italian and lived at a time, you know, making her work, you know, at a time when there was no institutional I mean there was no support for like what she was doing. So I think it just you know, in in some ways that kind of lack of attention can just make you totally fearless 'cause like what do you have to lose in terms of a lot of her early work was just, you know, all these snakes coming out of vaginas and like yeah, just you know, very, very Timoteo: Yeah, why? GIna Beavers: in your face kind of but like if no one's paying attention then like does it Yeah, you don't really have the same guardrails as everybody else. You can just go wild, so Timoteo: Was she Italian since like she has actually like born in Italy or she Italian American? That I'm not sure. GIna Beavers: yeah, she's born in Italy. Yeah, she's Italian. And she w grew up r a among Timoteo: okay. But did she situate in like the arte povera movement? Like i is she kind of part of that? GIna Beavers: Yeah, she was sort no, no, you're breaking up. Can you hear me? Timoteo: Yeah. GIna Beavers: okay. Yeah, she was kind of those were her friends. Like those were she wa and some of her work even, you know, in different eras dovetails with that. Like she she's sort of known for her earliest body of work, but then that she did other other things as well that were more minimal or yeah. I feel like I'm not doing the best job. I was drinking describing it because there was they did have drinks at this event and they gave me this like tequila was it tequila or w yeah, just tequila with a giant ice cube, massive, as I went in and I was just sipping on it during the talk. And now when I look back I'm like, Yeah, what did what did I learn about Carol Rama? But Timoteo: That's one way to really enjoy a sort of difficult lecture is just a giant ice cube with tequila. Because GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: that just melts so nice and slow and it allows you to sit for like an hour and it gives you some kind of like oral fixation. GIna Beavers: Yeah. Totally. Well, and I I was also I I thankfully I didn't get up. They there wasn't any question answer or comment section because I was like worried about what I might get up and ask. And one of them is like there's 'cause talking of just about aging women and both of them are like forty plus and talking about what happens as you get older and how people see you and and my question was gonna be about like i a European aging woman versus an American aging woman and how those two maybe one is Timoteo: Discuss. GIna Beavers: one is more is taken more seriously than the other. I don't know. I think it would still be better to be an aging woman with an accent other than American. I don't know. I don't know. So Timoteo: Yeah, I never actually thought of that of like the sort of gender this this the situating someone in terms of like respect of gender and age vr d based on their like geography, their sort of nationality. 'Cause GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Timoteo: I do feel like you're right that there's something so you sort of just take as a given like the older European woman as being having some kind of ravitas. GIna Beavers: Mm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Timoteo: But then you think of like, I don't know, I think of like Pat Steer, who passed away recently. Like when I think of someone like her, I'm like, she's got gravitas. Like she's sort of very serious person. Or Joyce Kozloff, who, in GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Timoteo: fact, just recently, I think it was yesterday, it came out that she was one of the original Gorilla Girls. And she was like, Yep, it's me. GIna Beavers: yeah, yeah, yeah. That was so cool. Yeah. Totally. Linda Benglis too. I think there are a lot of yeah, I think there's some yeah. I was being again, that was the t Timoteo: I think there's women there's older American women who are blazing, you know, the sort of boomers now who are blaz who are older GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Timoteo: and blazing the trail for like I can be badass and old at the same time. Cool. GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and American and it's fine. Yeah. yeah. Timoteo: Accent or not. GIna Beavers: Yeah, exactly. I guess the the other thing that Well that would have brought up is this frustrating I I think like on Instagram, whenever there have you noticed this, whenever there's an older artist, they'll often post a younger picture, like particularly Timoteo: Yes. GIna Beavers: with women, like a young hot picture of them versus what they look like now. I mean not saying they're not hot, but like for the feed, it's like, this the old black and white of when they were hot. Like that I don't know annoys me so bad. Timoteo: Well that's gonna make the algorithm pop, you know, the GIna Beavers: I know, I know, but it's like ig god. Timoteo: It's a good strategy. But you know, but I like I don't mind that so much only in that GIna Beavers: Sucks. Timoteo: I don't know what they looked like back then per se. So to GIna Beavers: Yeah, yeah. Timoteo: see like a photo of maybe an eighty six year old artist when they were 46 or something, like I'm like, GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: that's you know, I can relate to that. That's that that's like how old I am now. Or, you know, when you find GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: like when you're a teenager and you find a photo of your mom when she looked hot and cool and you're like, whoa. GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: I I thought my mom was old and and gross, but actually she was like hot and cool. And and you kind of like have a new assessment of her GIna Beavers: I know, but Timoteo: as like a deeper person. GIna Beavers: I know, but that's the point. Like the Hism of it all, you know? Like that's what Timoteo: Sure. GIna Beavers: annoys me. But I guess, yeah, I guess I'm not making my point. Timoteo: But it helps you understand the arc of a life though. You know, like I think that GIna Beavers: Yeah, no, for sure. It's like seeing your teacher in the grocery store or something. Like, they had a whole other well yeah, I mean Timoteo: Yes, exactly. Right. They're real. GIna Beavers: you could really like obsess about like your par your parents as young people. I mean, it's a really crazy mindfuck, right? To think of your parents like getting together and falling in love and well yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: Yeah, especially when you're a teenager and you think your parents are so stupid. Like when I was s fifteen, I found black and white pictures of my mother in Greenwich Village in the early sixties being really like a beatneck with a cat on her shoulder, barefoot in Greenwich Village. And I was like, GIna Beavers: Mm. Yeah. Timoteo: My mom looks like she's out of a Bob Dylan album. Like I can't GIna Beavers: So cool. Timoteo: I believe she was so cool living in Greenwich Village in the GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: early 60s. Like, and all of a sudden my mom, who at the time was maybe like 50 something, seemed really cool all of a sudden because I could I saw that she was at one time GIna Beavers: Mm. God forbid. Yes. Timoteo: like a young hip artsy person. And I GIna Beavers: Totally. Timoteo: don't know, I feel like as a teenager, your mind can get GIna Beavers: No, totally. I mean, I do think that your mom was probably in the coolest ten percent of moms in that era. Like if you're in Greenwich Village in the sixties and that I mean, that's pretty v cool. I mean Timoteo: Yeah, she was like p like playing classical guitar and like hanging out at like the fat black pussy cat on Manette Lane, like doing all that kind of beating GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: early sixties stuff in Greenwich. GIna Beavers: That's so cool. Timoteo: Yeah, but I don't know, like sometimes it's fun to post it. Like I posted a picture of myself from my freshman year at Hampshire College when Hampshire College was like closing. I was like, Look at me when I like eighteen at Hampshire College. And it really made the algorithm pop. Like, I mean I got like hundred comments, you know, so I don't know. Who who gives a fuck if the algorithm pops, but whatever. GIna Beavers: Yes, but I mean I think that's different. No, I know. I think that's different though. When like a a museum or like a you know, a blue chip gallery does that, it's like that's what I'm saying. That's that's yes, I know. Timoteo: well that's a horse of a different color. Wait, don't that is like the birthday posts, which drives me up the fucking wall. GIna Beavers: But that's what annoys me. It doesn't annoy me when like you post. I love that. I mean it's like, but it annoys me when it's like this person is a blue chip artist and you still can't just post what they look like. You have to post what they look like. You have to market it. Yeah, you gotta market Timoteo: Right. They're an old wrinkly lady, but you don't want to admit it. Yeah. GIna Beavers: it like this younger. And that just like annoys when a museum does it too. And I'm just like, gosh. Timoteo: Yeah. Okay, that's a good context for how annoying it is. But this I want to dial this back now for a brief moment. It's a small digression, GIna Beavers: That's what I was that's what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: but it's something I've wanted to talk about for a while. Is the ubiquitous gallery birthday post, which drives me up the fucking wall. Because GIna Beavers: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: really it's just another opportunity to be like, look at our artists, look at them in their studio. GIna Beavers: Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: are they barefoot in the studio? Like, you know, it GIna Beavers: Yeah, yeah. Timoteo: And it and it just is like another marketing technique that that feels GIna Beavers: Yeah, yeah. Timoteo: or looks like it's sort of sort of selflessly celebrating the artist. But it's all like just this like continuous GIna Beavers: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Timoteo: marketing ego bullshit. To the point where GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: I will tell any galler work with, hey, I'm not telling you my birthday, so you're not gonna do it. But even if it is my birthday, don't do it. Because I GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: just it's like it's also like when other people on Instagram post about other people's birthdays. GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: And then everyone, you know, and then everyone wants to jump on that bandwagon because they have a lot GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: of social cachet. That's the kind of compare and despair shit on Instagram that is bullshit. Like, GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, huh. Timoteo: I'm like, don't do it. You don't need to do it. You don't, you know, unless it's maybe your husband or your partner or something. Even that's a little cringe, but it's okay. But when people go bandwagony with all like the birthday posts and reposts and all that. I don't know. It GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: just makes me always feel like there's someone who's really sad about it. There's someone who's like, GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: It was my birthday and I didn't get any posts or, you know, it's this it's just GIna Beavers: yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: bullshit that that I hate. So anyway, fine. GIna Beavers: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I can see I'm also like when when they post it, you know, this is like a you know, it's a working relationship that that artist has with the gallery and like who knows what state it's in at the time that they post the you know, they could be like sending angry emails back and forth and then the the Instagram's like, Hooray for so and so, it's their birthday. It's like, I don't know, it's just funny to me. It's just like a jarring kind of feels like high school or like your elementary teacher being like, It's Gina's birthday today. Yeah. There's there's something it's really funny. Yeah. Timoteo: Exactly. That right. It's sort of it's infantilizing. There's something infantilizing about it. But I'm a little cynical about that kind of thing because in general, I've never been someone who's like, it's my birthday. Everyone has to know it. I'm taking the day off from work. I'm not. No, I've like taught classes on my birthday. I've gone to work on my birthday. I've done drudgery bullshit on my birthday. Like, you know, it's not GIna Beavers: Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. Birthday week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: like I don't celebrate myself or or like The fact that it's my birthday, but I don't need GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: I just feel like imposing it upon everyone as some kind of like, I don't know. GIna Beavers: Right. I don't know. It's a little bit like adult it's like as adults. Like, are we are we really celebrating? I mean, I'm happy to be alive. I'm glad I made it to another birthday. But like beyond that, it's like I don't know. I you don't need to Timoteo: But then I feel guilty if somebody posts that it's their birthday on Instagram and they repost someone who posted, I'm like, GIna Beavers: Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: if I don't wish them happy birthday, but they see that I've seen it, they might GIna Beavers: Right. Right. Timoteo: be like, Tim Hall didn't wish me a happy birthday. I hate him. Which I feel like people are that way. People are like, you know, they really look at like who looked at their story and it kind of terrifies me. So I'm like, shit, I looked at their story GIna Beavers: You just ruined their birthday. You just ruined their birthday. Right, right. I know. Timoteo: now. I wish them a happy birthday. Why are we doing this to each other? GIna Beavers: Right. Right. That it's yeah, happy birthday. Timoteo: Just give me an announcement like Facebook used to do so I know that it's your birthday and I can tell you privately happy GIna Beavers: Yeah, for sure. And there's definitely that Instagram thing where everybody wishes you a happy birthday. There's a certain pressure in that too to like respond to everyone. And but some but Timoteo: That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. GIna Beavers: sometimes there sometimes people come out from your past who you haven't talked to forever and they're like, Happy birthday. Timoteo: Sure. GIna Beavers: And you're like, my god, how are you know, how are you? You know. Timoteo: And you're also like so superficial. You don't give a fuck. You're just wishing me a happy birthday because you saw it. GIna Beavers: Yeah. It is a big deal, you know, that we're all we're all still here and and having birthdays. So that I feel like that can that could be celebrated, but like yeah, Timoteo: Yeah, why celebrate that I will celebrate that time. GIna Beavers: yeah. but don't ask me what birthday it is. Timoteo: Okay, so Gina, did you win a knife a grant in the latest rash of Knife grantees? GIna Beavers: I did not, but I did win a New Jersey grant on the same the same kind of grant in New Jersey because I live in New Jersey. And any Yeah. Does anybody Timoteo: right, so you can't win a knife a grant 'cause you don't live in New York. GIna Beavers: if anybody listening to this lit is in New Jersey, you have to apply for that grant because I will say that a lot fewer people apply for it than the NYFA and Timoteo: What is it called? GIna Beavers: it's called the New Jersey Council on the Arts grant and they give Timoteo: awesome. GIna Beavers: out So much money. Like you can make you get yeah. You make much Timoteo: more than knife out. GIna Beavers: bigger. Yeah. And they give out like a hundred. Timoteo: 'Cause bad, you only get eight thousand dollars from knife and it's hardly changed in like twenty-five years. GIna Beavers: Yeah. I think and it's much more competitive because it's like New York, so there's so many more artists. But like the fur. Yeah, yeah. Timoteo: I've applied for diaphragms for like twenty-five years and even when I was like I'm I'm an upstate artist, I'm not even competing with those New York City people and I still don't get the fuck out. GIna Beavers: Yeah. Yeah. sorry. Yeah, it's I'm telling you, establish a residence in New Jersey. Sorry. But it was like a Timoteo: Mm-hmm. GIna Beavers: thousand people applied, a hundred people got grants. That's one in ten. And they I know. And they give out like Timoteo: those odds are incredible. Wow. GIna Beavers: thirty thousand dollars. It's a scale. They the other thing about the Jersey grants Timoteo: Okay. GIna Beavers: is that they're very blind. So you don't you don't attach your name. So they're just judging it blind. Yeah. Timoteo: That's pretty cool. GIna Beavers: So when you get one you feel pretty like, okay, yeah, so Timoteo: Well, you know, if you've been around the art world long enough and you like look at who won the NIFA grant and then you see who the panelists were, the judges were, you're like, that makes sense. Like I get it. They either know that person or they did a show with that person or they they're friends. You know, it's still kind of whether you want to admit it or not, it's a small world, it's an insider's world, and you just have to hope that the you you know the GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's a right. Right. Also like right. Motifs. Right. Exactly. Or like your work is in a similar you know, it's in it's sort of what they're into or you know, it's like yeah. Timoteo: Right. As a collective, the the the group of judges are like, we we're GIna Beavers: Right. Timoteo: interested in this kind of work or these kinds of artists, or right. GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: There's myriad little bits of formula that that add up to like who wins them and who doesn't. But what's GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: also interesting is often I do feel like you see people who win them and you're like, well, they're on a roll right now. So you're like, do they win it because they're on a roll? Because the judges are like, GIna Beavers: Mm. Mm-hmm. Timoteo: this person's really doing stuff right now. Let's give them the grant. GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: Instead of being like, who the hell is this person? Let's give them the grant so they feel good about themselves. I feel like they often GIna Beavers: Well Timoteo: give the grant to someone who's like on a roll. GIna Beavers: Who's already but it's also about a good application. So maybe they're on a roll because the work has been really strong or whatever. And so the application that they submitted is the same application that they submit to like I don't know, that maybe that's just a really strong Yeah. And it looks good and it yeah, I don't know. There's a lot it's Timoteo: Right. Maybe the photos are really hot. It looks really good. Yeah. Cause when I took a practices class in in my MFA program, they spent a GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: lot of time on like how you know, you've got to have great photos, they've got to be clear, they've got to GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: be well representative. You have to make sure you're you know the order you're uploading them because that matters. GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: Like there are lots of little ways to kind of you know, game the system to be get more advantage, for sure. GIna Beavers: Yeah, it's yeah, there's lots of things that go into it, I think, and it kind of random. I yeah, I don't know. It's I never got the NYFA applied. It's also tricky because it's the same thing in New Jersey where you have to apply every other year, right? Because it's Timoteo: Right. GIna Beavers: a different slate of but I did hear from people who got it got it in categories that they normally like so if you're a painter, but maybe you can apply in drawing or apply in Timoteo: Well that's what I do because I have a whole drawing practice. So I often apply for the drawing one and then off and then always apply for the painting. So I'm like, GIna Beavers: Sculpture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Right. And then also the painting. Yeah. I Timoteo: you know, I apply like literally every year for like twenty-five years. I'm like, give me a break piece. Throw me a bone here. GIna Beavers: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, seriously. Seriously. That is really frustrating. Well, I know with like creative capital with different people that I've talked to that they apply, you know, like somebody I talked to who got it this year had applied like ten times. Like so I do think the applying over and over thing is really necessary. And some grants Yeah, fine. Timoteo: Well eventually fuck out of them and they're like, All right, give them the damn GIna Beavers: Just stop applying. Timoteo: Yeah, please please just stop applying. GIna Beavers: No, but it's yeah, and I like some of those like creative capital I li I appreciate the applications where you don't have to get a reference because I feel like I mean you can write people's names down, sure, that's not a big but to ha actually have to get a letter from people like the Guggenheim, you have to get letters Timoteo: Yeah, I think with the Guggenheim we have to like actually get GIna Beavers: and then it's like, do you really do that every year and ask the same people or do you ask yeah, this will s Timoteo: That's probably why they make that a little onerous because they're like, We don't really have to enjoy whatever GIna Beavers: Yeah, this'll slow people down because it definitely stops me from I I'll get like the best four letters on earth that I could get and then I don't get the grant and then I'm like, Am I gonna go back to those people and ask them to write me another one a year later? Timoteo: Or like with the Pollack Krasner grant, you have to, if you reapply, you have to reapply with all new work. You can't reapply with the same slides. So that's GIna Beavers: Mm, yeah. Right. Right, right. Timoteo: also part of like an onerous process. But don't even get me started on the Polak Krasner. I know if I've gone off on this on the show before, but I'll just go off GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: for one second. That there were two times in my life where I was so unbelievably financially strapped, I was practically destitute. And I applied to the Pollack Krasner, and I was like, I'm literally about totally bottoms up, bottoms out, finito, you know, and I need just this much money. It's not that much, like, you know, and GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: never got it. And then I would see people get it who had like full-time teaching jobs, tenured, like, you know, GIna Beavers: Right. Timoteo: owned houses or whatever, you know. And I was like, what the fuck? Like, who GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: how is this? Who is judging this stuff? It would drive me just totally bonkers. But note to the GIna Beavers: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Timoteo: everyone out there, you can't overthink that and and let it dis you know, GIna Beavers: Right, right. Timoteo: distract you, but it can really GIna Beavers: Well yeah, it is really one I mean, good piece of news is the Remhart Mann Foundation is doing this cancer grant now. They're gonna give out I I can't remember now if they're giving out twenty five grants or the grants are twenty five I think the grants are twenty five thousand and maybe they're giving out ten to twelve a year or something like that. And that's for artists living with cancer and what they're gonna do it's a very simple application. You just apply and it goes into like a lottery and they pick from the people you know, you have to have like a doctor's note and different things like that. But I thought that's a really good you know, a good initiative. A sad initiative in the sense that like part of it was brought on. Timoteo: Just gonna say that's a very depressing l topic. I mean, fine. I'm not sad, but like sad that. GIna Beavers: Yeah. Well, right. But there there are a lot of artists A lot of artists who've battled cancer or had cancer, unfortunately, and like all these rollbacks with the current administration and their Congress on Obamacare Timoteo: Yeah. GIna Beavers: means that artists, you know, can't access the care that that's partly why they're doing it. Because like which is exactly what these like right wingers wanted, which was we'll roll back the Timoteo: Yeah, they won't. GIna Beavers: public funding and then private people will step up and do it. but i anyway, yeah. So if you know anyone who's battling cancer or has been diagnosed at any level, you know, this is gonna be an ongoing thing. Timoteo: I do, and I appreciate those artists who are relatively upfront and honest about it because it's important to n for to for the community to be able to rally and help them. Like I remember my really good friend Lumen Wakoa got brain cancer out of nowhere. Like it just literally was like GIna Beavers: yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: poof. And she was very upfront, honest, talked about it, like you know, asked for help when needed and People really rallied around her and her husband and the children as a community. And I feel like, you know, the art world can really get into gear when it needs to to help. GIna Beavers: Mhm. Totally, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: The more we talk about like I love how Richard Tinkler's been battling cancer. I mean, I don't love that he's been battling cancer, but I love that he's been always posting about like what's going on, what what trial he's in, what the stage is, you know, like and GIna Beavers: Yeah. Mm hmm. Totally. Yeah. Mm hmm. Timoteo: the and the people comment and they're so helpful and they're so positive. GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: And I feel like that kind of energy is is GIna Beavers: Mhm. Yeah, it's very brave and yeah, and Timoteo: Very brave. GIna Beavers: open, yeah, to to do that, yeah. well, and the Remohort man, I mean the other half, you know, they do art emerging artist grants normally. Timoteo: Yeah. GIna Beavers: And then they do cancer grants and those they've been doing those for a long time because they've lost family members to cancer. I mean it's in the name of Remohort man who is their daughter who died of brain cancer. And they yeah, the cancer grants, they've the hospitals call them and say we have someone here who is alone and their family member lives in Puerto Rico or whatever. And so the grant will pay for the family member to come and stay and live in New York while they go through treatment. You know, like it's like about giving money to people. And those people are just they're not artists. They're that they've been doing that for a really long time. And then so this is a new expanse. Like, yeah. Timoteo: That's great. That's gr I j but you know, even though I mean I think that, yes, I wish the government provided more help and support to people in various states of need. But I also think it's important for wealthy people who have the means GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: and the money to, you know, help society as well, help the arts, help like I GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do totally. At this point with like, you know, Elon and all these people acting like philanthropy is, you know, a mortal sin. I was just re you know, Timoteo: Yeah. GIna Beavers: it's good to see people actually feeling like no, you know, wealth means giving back, you know. I mean, that's it's like really important. I saw the guy that the Minecraft, I think it's Minecraft. The guy that developed Minecraft is using his money to protect huge swaths of North Carolina and turn them into natural preserves. Like he's just taking that land, like yeah, he's preserving it. It's Yeah, spending all his money. Timoteo: But like it goes back to that argument I made at the armory where someone was sort of like mindlessly dropping like half a million dollars on like a painting, and I wanted to tap them on the shoulder and be like, take that half a million dollars, go to the the Lower East Side or Chinatown, buy from all those galleries, GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: and you will float the entire emerging art market. GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. yeah, yeah. Yeah. But that's the Timoteo: Spread the world. Mm-hmm. GIna Beavers: I know, those are just like different people have different priorities. And the people that are buying the five hundred, you know, thousand dollar piece, you know, want that as a trophy, right? Or they want that as a yeah. And so the person Timoteo: But I feel like it would feel more be so much more satisfying to feel like, wow, I'm floating the entire emerging art market of New York City. GIna Beavers: Yeah, I know. It's like what artists would do if we had that kind of spending money. Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: Yeah exactly. Well when I scratch off the lottery I do that I usually think like, I'm gonna like go just buy shit ton of art from everyone everywhere. GIna Beavers: Totally. Yeah. You went where you went gambling to a casino. That's right, you sent me a picture. Timoteo: I went gambling this weekend by the way. I went gambling to a casino. Yeah. I went to Resorts World Catskill, which is in like Monticello, New York. GIna Beavers: Wow. And that was just like that that was like a side effect of something, or that was like, no, we're going there to gamble, or which Timoteo: No, we were actually, I got in the car with Corey and our friend Danielle Henderson, GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: and who has a great podcast called Our Fucking House, by the way. And everyone should listen to it. anyway, GIna Beavers: yeah, our fucking ass. Timoteo: Danielle and we were going on an adventure. We're like, let's have an adventure. It was a Saturday night. We didn't know what we were doing. And we're just driving, and all of a sudden I was like, wouldn't it be weird to go like gamble on the cat skills? And Danielle was like, Whoa, turn this car around, let's go. GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: So we literally like pulled like a three sixty donut in like a parking lot and zipped up to Monticello to this casino and we dropped a couple hundred bucks. Lost it all, of course. GIna Beavers: lost it all. That's amazing. I mean not that you lost it. Mm. Timoteo: But had an amazing time a funk band playing. They were like keeping the energy going. They were like wack-a-doo people. Like the the crow the people watching is like unpair. It's like sort of like the Tiger King meets like 227. It was like such a fascinating group of people, very diverse, very weird, big crowds. but I once a year I kind of go gambling some somehow, like in some way, like GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: you know, with somebody somehow. And last year I won eight hundred dollars in five minutes, in the first five minutes. So GIna Beavers: my god, my god. Timoteo: you can sometimes have, you know, win some money, but you know, you win some, GIna Beavers: Just like really have Timoteo: you lose some. GIna Beavers: right, exactly. I remember one time going cross country and we stayed at a campground in Reno where they gave us like a roll of dimes and I was to use at the casino and I I won twenty five dollars on my roll on my free roll of dimes. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna quit now. Like and I've sort of quit, yeah. Timoteo: I you know, those days are over of putting coins into a machine and pulling the lever. It's all like like all like like touching a button now. It's all automated. GIna Beavers: Yeah. yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My my aunt once was like at a casino, I think, in Las Vegas, and her husband gave her like a couple quarters as they were walking out and she put that like three quarters in the last three machines and they all hit at the same time. She won like twenty-five thousand dollars. This was Timoteo: Dream GIna Beavers: I know, this is someone who, you know, to speak talking about people who don't need, you know, don't need that kind Timoteo: Ha ha GIna Beavers: of money. And I was just I've been forever I don't know, there's just something about it that's just so outrageous to Timoteo: Yeah. GIna Beavers: me. Just the gambling of it all. I feel like I my perspective on life doesn't allow for like a lot of gambling because I'm just like too pissed off and like Timoteo: But like we've said before in this podcast though, being being an artist is kind of having like a gambling problem. You're always gambling. We're always like throwing the d whenever we have a solo show, it's like throwing the dust. GIna Beavers: maybe that's why I don't enjoy it. Maybe that's why I don't enjoy it. You know, it's like it's a little too close Timoteo: 'Cause it's always a roller coaster. GIna Beavers: to home. It's a little too a little too on the nose of like, yeah, I don't know. So yeah. I love to play Timoteo: It can be fun. And especially at the at the casinos there's lights, there's music, there's, you know, drinks. GIna Beavers: Yes, yes. Timoteo: It's it's ridiculous. You wear a stupid outfit. GIna Beavers: Yeah, no, totally. I love all of that. I feel like I love all the the marketing of it and the yeah, I love when we what were we just watching had the they were in Reno it was the Will Farrell show on Netflix. Timoteo: I've never been to Las Vegas, Nevada. I've never I've never done it. I would like to I would GIna Beavers: Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: like to do GIna Beavers: Yeah. I did that I w I used to work at an art print company and we would do these trade shows and we would do one in Vegas every year. And I just remember being struck by like coming out of the elevator at the hotel and there was like a man with his walker and his oxygen tank at the first like slot Yeah, yeah, Timoteo: So many oxygen at the casino by the GIna Beavers: yeah. Is that I'm thinking, yeah. But yeah, every morning. And I would have to get up really early to make it to like breakfast and the trade shows. I'd be there down in the lobby at like 6 a.m. He would be there. I would come back after dinner at 10 PM and he would be there at the same machine. And I just, I don't know. It was pretty dark. I was like, I don't know. Yeah. Timoteo: He just like is he just like winnowing down his like social security or some obscure inheritance that he got and he has no children or doesn't like his family, so he's like fuck him, I'm gonna throw all the money away. GIna Beavers: my gosh. Yeah, I don't know. I think Americans are probably particularly susceptible to that fantasy, right? I don't know about Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Yeah. Right. Right. Timoteo: Well, the fantasy of like the get rich quick. Like, you know, I don't wanna work hard for it. I wanna scratch something off or pull a lever and win ten million dollars and fuck you all and like lose it all in three years. GIna Beavers: Right. We're always sort of being told culturally that you gotta have a lot of money. You know, it's like you're just like, you gotta that'll fix all your problems. You make a lot of money, Timoteo: Yeah. GIna Beavers: you're you're all good, you know? And it's like, well, is that true? Timoteo: Maybe, maybe. So you know what's fixed a lot of my problems recently is I have been engaging in some very leisurely, very relaxing, very casual, very fun, no stakes, no GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: you know, e expectations, plain air painting. GIna Beavers: nice. Yeah. Timoteo: Like I've been taking like a little kit, you know, going out into the farms, into the fields, painting GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: pastoral landscapes. Using a new medium, I've been trying water-based oil paint. Which seems anathema. Like I was like, how the fuck does that work? Like, but we started using it more in in in school, GIna Beavers: Mm, that's awesome. How does that work? Yeah. Yeah. Does it work? Mm hmm. Timoteo: like the studios at Lehman College are wanting to be a little cleaner, a little less toxic. GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: And so they've been like, please try to encourage your students to use these water mixable oil paints. To which I was like, GIna Beavers: Hmm. Timoteo: no, that is so inauthentic. That's impossible. It doesn't exist. GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: but I've been using them to sort of get into the rhythm of how they work. I use them like watercolors because I'm like, GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: I'm mixing water in with these like pigment, these like wet pigments. GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: And So I don't use a lot of imposta with it. I very sort of like washy and then build up sort of layers of wash. And GIna Beavers: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Timoteo: so it's been interesting because I don't really paint that way in general. so it's GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Timoteo: sort of fun to have a little painting practice that's not my professional practice, that's just fun, relaxing, out in nature, you know, cosplaying Cezanne. GIna Beavers: It's awesome. no. Wait, say that again? Timoteo: I'm Kaz playing Saison. GIna Beavers: Okay, sorry. You you completely cut out like you were muted. Timoteo: That's insane because I just got a new internet system, like a like fiber. I mean, granted, GIna Beavers: Yeah. No you Yeah. You look Timoteo: I'm doing this from a distance from the Wi-Fi because my studio is like two hundred yards GIna Beavers: yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: from Wi-Fi, but I turn mo turned off my Italian VPN. I'm try I cleaned up my hard drive. It should be perfect. Why isn't perfect? Or is it your problem? Are you the problem? GIna Beavers: Mm. Yeah. It might be. It could be. I have a lot of problems, Tim. It's it could be me. No, but I think you the picture looks great, the sound is great. Just for some blippy reason you were just so I'm glad I got that cosplaying Cezanne, like nice and loud on Yeah. Timoteo: Yes. I mean do I do. I go out there, I get like sort of in a weird state. I pretend like I'm like blind from diabetes. I pretend I'm really cranky. I pretend GIna Beavers: my god. Timoteo: like painting is this incredible burden. I'm like burdened to do it. I don't know how to GIna Beavers: You're speaking in a French accent. That's awesome. Well, I Timoteo: say cosmic not in French, but GIna Beavers: To how to say what? Cosplay in French. Timoteo: I don't have the guys playing Cezan. je je fa cosplay du Saison. GIna Beavers: Yeah. Well, that sounds amazing. Yeah, I've been I Timoteo: What other similar stuff have you been doing? You you've been out at wineries. GIna Beavers: Yeah, I've been like the little mad scientist and I think I might have finally figured it out like how to make do what they call a la prima heav heavy what am I trying to heavy what am I trying to say? Imposto. Yes, very Timoteo: Like impasto alla prima? Okay. GIna Beavers: heavy imposto a la prima by using marble dust. So Timoteo: Ohinson. GIna Beavers: what? Timoteo: Tracy Thomason, she uses marble dust in her pick. GIna Beavers: really? interesting. Yeah. So using that and I'm thinking I'm going to start mixing my own like with dry pigment. Dry pigment. 'cause then I think it'll be even more antipasta like anti antipasta Jesus. Timoteo: Well then you have a real ooh, if it's empty pasta, it'll be delicious. GIna Beavers: I have such summer brain. I'm like all all we did was eat. Timoteo: You're gonna paint with a salami stick? GIna Beavers: Eat, yeah, all we did was eat and drink wine this weekend. So I'm like a little bit yes flabby. Yeah, so Timoteo: But you went away some you went away to sell winery somewhere. GIna Beavers: to Maryland wine country. If anyone in b in the Baltimore area, there's a winery restaurant called Old Westminster, which I think is like thirty minutes from Baltimore, and they have these really cute cabanas where you can rent an entire table. for like ten people and you're in your own little space and it it was a really cool example of like taking the pandemic and turning it into something kind of permanent, but like people really love it. and they make really great wines and then like forty minutes away on closer to like Northern Virginia, they have a place called Burnt Hill, which is like super high end, but also really amazing. And both of these places, they have their own farm. So like the pigs, they You you know, they use they have honey, they have an apiary. They use all local artisans for their they pulled up all of this old glass because there used to be a distillery and they took it to a glass maker in Baltimore and they the glassmaker turned all of this old distillery glass into new carafts and things for the restaurant. They use clay and take it to local potters who make it's just it's like an amazing enterprise where everything Timoteo: Clay's really rich down in like Maryland and Virginia. There's a lot of good clay. GIna Beavers: Yeah, it's really I don't know. I thought it was really awesome. And if you're in that area, you have to check those places out because they're really like destinations and and amazing and so good. Yeah, Timoteo: And is the wine good down there in Maryland? I know in Virginia, Thomas Jefferson, I think GIna Beavers: yeah. They have their own style and like Maryland, these wines are so impressive. They're really, yeah, you're you're really just exciting. I don't know. So I was Timoteo: Do you often try a lot in the summer b for Keith's work? 'Cause I imagine that like Keith was GIna Beavers: Yeah, this is Timoteo: for the wine to sort of bl podcast or blog or write about it or something. GIna Beavers: Right. And he's always trying to discover American wine and like what's happening around the US. So he's been invited to a bunch of these things and it's been really fun. Yeah. I was like, you know Timoteo: Yeah, that's fine. Built in locations. GIna Beavers: Yeah, the locations are really great. And I yeah, but I'm like sitting there drinking wine and like just so relaxed, but they had a pool and but I kept thinking about the painting in the studio. I really did. I kept like looking at it. I'm like looking back at it, like, what are you doing? You know, how's it? So far it's all working, but I still need to observe it for a couple more weeks and see 'cause I think one of the things that happens is the marble dust like dries down the drying time, which is kind of good. Timoteo: It does. GIna Beavers: Yeah, which is good because you You kind of want it to dry a little slower. You don't want it to like get that wrinkly top layer. You don't want it to like dry on top Timoteo: Yeah. GIna Beavers: and then be wet underneath, which is what I was struggling with a little bit. So yeah, I think maybe I'm I'm turning a corner and I figured something out. So we'll see. Timoteo: That is the best feeling when you're working on a painting that you're that you're obsessed with. And you might be in like on vacation, you might be in this GIna Beavers: Yes. Yeah. Timoteo: beautiful environment, you might be very distracted, but you're like, no, I want to look at the painting I'm working on GIna Beavers: Mm. I wanna just look at it. Timoteo: because it's so important to me and it's working or it's coming together, or it's not, and you're obsessed with like, why isn't this working? How do I fix this? How do I make this work? I love that. That's the that's the hot stuff of painting. That's when it's GIna Beavers: Yeah. Yeah. Why isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I know. That's the totally, totally. Yeah. So yeah. So I feel like pretty good. I'm like I'm gonna make some more. I'm just I don't know. I'm in this weird space of like which ideas to make. I only have about like six more weeks at home and then I'm going to the headlands. So it's like which pieces do I try to make now? And then probably all small. Probably just trying to refine this technique a couple more times. And yeah, so yeah, that's but I I feel pretty good about it. It it just is also a weird season because I keep people keep asking me for like lips works. so it's a weird Timoteo: You're like, Hey, I'm working on some other stuff then. GIna Beavers: It's a weird place to be where you're working on like your next thing, but then you know, people are, you know, and I've had people who were I've Timoteo: That's a balance, that's a delicate balance. GIna Beavers: had people who at the time when I was making the lips works were like, you can't just make lip work Timoteo: Ha ha. GIna Beavers: now telling me, you know, yeah, Timoteo: Why aren't you just making lip work? GIna Beavers: I want to lip work. And it's like you know, so it's good at good at a good lesson in like not listening to anything that anybody says ever. Just yeah, Timoteo: Damned if you do. GIna Beavers: just don't take any of that stuff. Like the criticism and the you know and the praise, just like don't listen to any of it if you can and just try to like I don't know, but it's also a weird thing between yourself and the market and like until you establish a market for a specific body of work you know, it's kind of invisible. You know, you may believe in it, but like, you know, you can't yeah, so but I I am going to Aspen, I was telling you, three thirty car picking me up. also can I just Timoteo: three thirty AM. GIna Beavers: AM. Can I also just say we live fifteen minutes from the airport and I can't expect Keith Timoteo: I GIna Beavers: Can't expect Keith to like take me to the airport at three thirty. So I'm like, I'm gonna get a car, but it's I I it was it's forty five dollars to go to the airport fifteen minutes. It's become Timoteo: wow. Fifteen. GIna Beavers: like a complete racket. The airport Timoteo: That is such a rat. GIna Beavers: it is such a racket because I and I even asked the AI, how much should I expect to pay from you know, West Orange, New Jersey to Newark? And it's like sixty to eighty dollars. Like, are you kidding me? Timoteo: Right, 'cause it actually should be like fifteen dollars. That's really what that would be the fair price. Yeah. GIna Beavers: It should be it used to be. It used to. Five years ago it was like fifteen to twenty five dollars to go to the airport. Like what is this like a like highway robbery racket that is now going I how much is it? Timoteo: It it's literally highway rock. GIna Beavers: Yeah, literally. Literally the Garden State Parkway robbery. Yes. but also how much like if you were to say I'm sure our listeners are wildly fascinated by this conversation, but how much does it take cost you to take a car from like the East Village to LaGuardia, say, if you wanted to do that? Like a car. You would never. Yeah, you would never to take yeah. I can't Timoteo: I don't know because I I'm too much of a of a cheap that I would take public transportation. but I don't even take like cars in the city because it's too it's like too I I I I think it's so outrageous the prices that I will walk or subway or take a bike before I walk a car. Or I make my I'm like I'm not GIna Beavers: It's it's gotten so expensive. Yes. Totally. a hundred percent. I used to in the early days yeah, no, totally. In the early days of Uber, I would like on opening nights, like I would go downtown to Chelsea, I would take cars the entire time, but it was like cheap, like relative to what it is now. Timoteo: Yeah. Yeah. GIna Beavers: You know, now it would be twenty-five dollars each way, thirty dollars. Like I'm not yeah, no. Timoteo: Well, that's something I love about living in Manhattan is I will walk everywhere. Like I will walk an hour and a half if I can t instead of like taking a car or something. GIna Beavers: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To totally. The yesterday I walked, so I took the the train up from Penn Station to the west side of the park and walked across to go to the Guggenheim. Yeah, it was really nice. and I saw the Carol Yeah, to the Carol so far, so far no, but Timoteo: you went to the Guggenheim? You didn't get Legionnaire's disease? Okay. GIna Beavers: I figure they must be right there. They must be doing something to treat it at this point, now that they found it. They can't just be letting it Timoteo: 'Cause I was gonna I was gonna call it the Guggen slime. GIna Beavers: Well, they can't just be letting it spew legionnaires, right? They have to have done something, right? 'Cause I was standing right outside, like, for a while, but Timoteo: And what's your hot take on the Caribbean show? Because we've talked about the Manhattan Art Review takedown of it. GIna Beavers: Yeah, did we talk did we talk about that? I didn't see that. Really hated Timoteo: I think we did 'cause the Manhattan Art Review really took a GIna Beavers: it? Timoteo: broncatura. That's what they call it in Italian when you take like a hatchet job. GIna Beavers: I have to read that. Yeah, I'm interested in I mean, the there were some r like beautiful moments where you're just like blown away. Like she made those four really tall sculptures for the one atrium as you come in. that you can also see from from the next you know, as you go by, you can see the tops of them. Timoteo: Are they the crushed pillars, like the sort of metal pillars that are crushed? GIna Beavers: Yes, with the big circles s at the top. You hate those? Timoteo: Hate. Hater. GIna Beavers: why? What's what's hate Timoteo: I just think they are like the stupidest idea. I've like, I don't know, just like take a beam, crush it a little bit, powder GIna Beavers: Ha ha ha Timoteo: coat it yellow. It's like, did AI come up with that? Did you like put that? It just seems like GIna Beavers: T shit. Timoteo: art that you put that you could put it put into a prompt in AI, and it's like take a square beam, crush it a little bit, powder coat it yellow, put it in fancy museum. People will think it's very important. It's just yeah. GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. shit. man. Yeah, no, that's I mean, I do think the thing that appeals to me about those pieces is the same thing that appeals to me about like Jeff Kuhn's lobster. which is, you know, this thing, this air inflatable that you you could buy at the dollar store is actually steel, even though, you know, and Timoteo: Which is batshit crazy bonkers. That blows my mind. That is on a different level than that is Carol Bovin. GIna Beavers: Yeah. You think that's a totally well, I think the Carol Bovets are in in the same conversation though, because it's the soft Timoteo: There. GIna Beavers: the soft, almost fabric y appeal of this metal that is ac you know. Yeah. Timoteo: I wish they were more soft and fabricy. I don't think they I don't think they're pushing the medium beyond itself. GIna Beavers: They're not as well, there were some there were some in the show that are almost like draped over things and and I really admire her like use of like she's very interested in like the design and the interior and how things are installed and the palette and she's not afraid of this bold color. Like I love the idea that some of these were like neon. Like I I don't know. I just thought that there were some really Timoteo: That yeah, that I can kind of get behind. And I think she's a very smart artist. And I've often loved her site specificity for certain things. GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: And certainly her earlier work that I saw at Team GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: or at where was that other place? No. There was another GIna Beavers: Was it Rivington Arms or what were those spaces she used to show Timoteo: space that was in Tribeca before everyone else was. And it was like sort of GIna Beavers: Was it near Gavin Brown? What was that space? I can't was that Rivington Arms? no. No. Timoteo: Yeah, I can't remember the German name. I can't no. It was a German I Klim Klimcher. I don't know. I some anyway, I saw her work a lot, you know, in the er mid to early mid two thousands and I thought, it's mystical, it's weird, it's designy, GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: it's kind of got some uncomfortable, bizarre things going on. But then GIna Beavers: Mm. Timoteo: when now with those like big metal crushed pieces, I'm just like, No, nope, I reject it. Sorry. GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. You don't yeah. Well, I I like s so they start at the bottom with those and then as you go up the spiral, the work becomes more ethereal in the natural light and it's more of that earlier work as you go up. Yeah, there was some Timoteo: Yes, that I'm sure is beautiful. That I like, yeah. GIna Beavers: really yeah. yeah, I don't know. I mean I think it yeah. I thought it was Timoteo: Was it a fun experience? GIna Beavers: I thought it was yeah, I thought it was compelling and interesting. I thought it was, you know, merging these two very different, in some ways very different kinds of bodies of work, like the more ethereal and then the very like heavy, bright, pop. You know, I I Timoteo: Yeah. GIna Beavers: wonder if there could have been some other way to integrate those or yeah, I don't know. But I I enjoyed it. Yeah, I thought it was good and I I I like those And I like the ones that were in that initial atrium. There was a conversation about Bob Fossey and also sweet Timoteo: Woo. GIna Beavers: sweet charity and also mythic Greek what am I trying to say? Then the Seven Graces. So it's like got this like mythological but also I like I once I read that, I really the big spheres and the the way that they're almost like dancers or moving or I don't know. I thought it was really cool. Yeah. Timoteo: I can get done with that. Yeah, well that's what I mean. I think her art has some intelligence to it. I'm not sort of GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: rejecting it, but I saw a really fun and wacky show downtown last week at Fearman Gallery. It was Nora Griffin, the painter, doing a two-person GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: show with Father George George Griffin, who was a well-known animator and illustrator. he's still alive, but he's you know, an older fellow. And never had a big commercial career per se. But Nora organized this show of her work and his work together. And it's really super fun because you kind of see maybe how she she has a real kind of 80s pop sensibility, very image-based, very wacky. And he does too. So you kind of see where, you know, daughter and father were, you know, sharing inspiration. It was a really, it's a cool show. And they're It's interactive. There's a animation, a wall animation box that you spin a wheel. And as you spin the wheel, the animation on a screen moves. So you totally control the movement of the animation through your own action, which is really kind of a fun interactive. You know, it's GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: where you get to actually touch the art and feel like you're kind of part of it, which is sometimes stupid and cheesy, but Sometimes it can be really interesting, and it reminds me of my the painter Michael Pybus or Pebus. I don't know what his last name is. Pybus. He was actually criticizing Carol Bovey in a blog, in an internet post that he made about how she was saying that art should be touched in museums and that she feels like it people are alienated by art that you can't touch. And he was criticizing Carol Bove because. Her art is in a museum and you can't touch it. And he's like, what kind of dribble GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: is this? That you're like sort of saying it's sad that people can't touch art, yet here you are having a museum show and you not allowing people to touch it. And so it GIna Beavers: And you can't touch it, yeah. Timoteo: was fun though that in the show you were able to really touch some of this artwork that George Griffin had made and get to see the arc of his long and sort of avant-garde career in art, in the intersection of art and animation. GIna Beavers: Hmm. Wow, that sounds really good. Yeah. Timoteo: So that was went through I went through that with my friend Itzak Font, who I met a couple of years ago, but reconnected with in Rome because he got a Fulbright in Rome all last year. And I went to his studio when I was just in Rome, but he's back in New York, and I was like, let's go see this show because I wanted him to see Nora Griffin's paintings because I'm very inspired by Nora's paintings, and I feel like Itzok would also be inspired by. Nora's paintings. And so it was fun to sort of connect a much younger artist with some slightly older artist to sort of bring in that conversation. So super fun. GIna Beavers: Hmm, that's very cool. Yeah, that sounds really great. Yeah, I was I think Michael had tagged us in a post, like Carol Bove was on CBS this morning, maybe. Or she was there was some kind of because as I was standing in line to go into the show, there were there was a couple behind me that was talking about, she's the one from CBS this morning. Which I thought Yeah, that really got some Timoteo: Okay. I'm sure that drove up viewership because I know when Bridget Donahue told me that when they had the Elaine Reich show, it was sort of like slow people coming GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: in. But then when Hilden Alles wrote about it in The New Yorker, they could there was like a line out the door. Like people came out of the for the show. And so she was just saying how GIna Beavers: Mm. Mm. Yeah. that's cool. Timoteo: You know, believe it or not, sometimes press can really can move the needle. Yeah, it can really drive a tender. GIna Beavers: It really drives yeah. Yeah. No, it's just interesting too, 'cause like the people that would read a Hilton All's piece in the New Yorker would be able to I don't know, yeah, that's a different kind of crowd than the CBS This Morning crowd, I would imagine. And like you know, so that Timoteo: completely different crowd. G. GIna Beavers: that was kind of interesting. Like I I was like, I wonder what they're gonna make of yeah, make of this show. Timoteo: Well, through the New Yorker you're only gonna reach maybe like twenty five thousand people or something, but through CBS GIna Beavers: Mm. Timoteo: you're gonna reach like five million. GIna Beavers: Yeah, yeah. yeah. That's interesting. what did that remind me of? No, not yet. Have you Timoteo: So did you see the Odyssey? Christopher Nolan's Odyssey. GIna Beavers: seen it? Timoteo: No, I'm not running out to it. GIna Beavers: Mm. Timoteo: I feel like from what I've read and understand, it takes some weird liberties. And I'm not I'm not talking about like woke bullshit. I'm talking about like GIna Beavers: Mm. Yeah. Timoteo: desexualizing Odysseus, like taking GIna Beavers: Uh-huh. Timoteo: the female figures and kind of de sexualizing or deiming. GIna Beavers: Mm. Mm. Timoteo: them, taking away a lot of the concepts of nostalgia that are so important. I mean I'm I cut my chops with the Odyssey. I've I've taken two college classes in the Odyssey when I was at GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: So I've I've read it at least four times in my life. Like it's definitely a GIna Beavers: Yeah, that's Timoteo: book that I take very seriously and understand well. So I'm not GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: running out to see this because GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: I've actually never watched any GIna Beavers: Mm. Timoteo: film of the Odyssey because I like having an idea in my own mind of what these characters look like. And so I may never see it. Actually I may never see it GIna Beavers: Right, you don't want to disturb the Yeah. Yeah. You may never Timoteo: because I like it being something I've taken with me since college GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: and it really got me interested in the ancient world and mythology and esotericism and just reading these things in a deeper, more profound way, not just as a superficial story. And GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: I from what I understand, the Odyssey movie kind of just takes it as like a superficial story a little bit. So I GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Interesting. Yeah, well, I got a message from my dad that was like, Have you seen it yet? We have to discuss. So I can't tell if that means he liked it or not. Or but right. I'm sure he Timoteo: Mm. Well I wonder is like a Greek patriot what your dad GIna Beavers: has thoughts. So lots of thoughts. So I'm definitely gonna have to see it just so I could discuss with him. but I did I do Timoteo: But you know, J what actually is the coolest thing about it, and I would tell this to your dad if GIna Beavers: Mm. Timoteo: he's critical in any way, the thing I can praise about it is it's put classics back in the conversation. GIna Beavers: That's what I feel like he always supports that. Like he's always behind that. I do think it's interesting. I d do you wa do you have you seen any other Christopher Nolan movies? Or do you mhm? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And Timoteo: I think I've seen all of them, but I don't really remember which and who, but yeah. GIna Beavers: your what is your feeling on like on his movie? It's like Timoteo: I mean, when I think back on the ones that I know of, which was like Inception and Oppenheimer, GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Timoteo: you know, I I appreciate they were kind of cerebral movies. They really got me thinking and GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Timoteo: contemplating, and they were artistic in their own way. And I'm glad that GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: there's someone who's allowed to make movies that are not like some stupid rom-com or Marvel movies like GIna Beavers: Mhm. Like so linear and yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: So so I like that, I admire that. And someone told me recently that Christopher Nolan doesn't have a cell phone, doesn't do email, you know, and I love it when I hear people who are like that. I'm like, wow, you can get shit done big time and have any of that stuff. So we don't need that stuff. GIna Beavers: Mm. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And not have any. Well we he doesn't need that stuff. he has assistants who are using email. Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: Yeah. It's like when John Baldasari said that he didn't need to carry a wallet anymore. I remember this interview with John Baldasari. He was like, I n he's like someone was like, well, what's it like to be successful? And he's like, well, I didn't really realize I was successful until I didn't have to carry a wallet. GIna Beavers: What? What does that mean? That means everywhere you go, people recognize you and give you it for free? What is Timoteo: I you know, I think it means that like maybe he had an assistant who just like paid stuff. GIna Beavers: Assistant. That's what I'm saying. Like, what's his name's assistant? Is definitely sending emails and answering. Timoteo: Exactly. GIna Beavers: Right? I mean, like yeah, so Christopher Nolan doesn't ha use email, but surely his at least one assistant, if not multiple assistants, are busy on the tech. Yeah. But Timoteo: Well, I remember reading that Philip Taft didn't have email and or cell GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: phone and you had to call him on the telephone, like the GIna Beavers: Mm. Timoteo: landline. So one day I was in Luring Augustine, just being weird, and I said to the girl at the front desk, I was like I was like, Do you have to call Philip Taft on the telephone? And she was like, No, GIna Beavers: Just being weird. Timoteo: he he has like email on the cell phone now. damn, like I could just lie to me. Just lie to GIna Beavers: okay. Damn it. Damn it. Timoteo: me. Just keep the mystique GIna Beavers: Can you just Timoteo: going. GIna Beavers: don't ever call me on the telephone? I just wanna take this opportunity to say. Don't ever also don't ever Timoteo: Really? I call me on this. I love GIna Beavers: but don't ever do it unannounced. Can you imagine? If I look down and I see that you're calling me, I'm gonna think like, first of all Timoteo: yeah, GIna Beavers: something terrible has happened and like, yeah, I feel like it's such an aggressive thing to just call someone out of the blue. Like when people do that to me, I'm like, what are what are you doing? Timoteo: But I I on you know, on the other hand, I think it's an incredibly loving and spontaneous thing. Like if all of a sudden I looked down at my phone and GIna Beavers: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Timoteo: like Paul Si was calling me, I would be so excited. I'd be like, my God, how how wonderful, how unexpected, GIna Beavers: Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. Yeah. Timoteo: you know? but that was but things like that never happen anymore because nobody wants to call and nobody wants to call anyone, which is very yes. GIna Beavers: We don't we'll Right. And we have to really schedule it. You you have to schedule a call. You can't just like, if I call you Timoteo: I'll call you at three PM on Thursday. GIna Beavers: if I call you and and then you answer and I'm like, Hey and you're like, Timoteo: Yeah. GIna Beavers: What's up? I'm like, nothing. Just call and just say hi. Do you know I'm in the middle of, you know, it's like I don't know. It's a different culture. Timoteo: When TM Davy was doing the the Tracy Eamon residency in Margate, he was there for like six, seven months. And he had GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Wow. Timoteo: a he was painting the whole time, but he had a lot of time on his hand in general. And I would just call him whenever I wanted because he would be basically up in painting almost like 24/7. He like would like GIna Beavers: Mm. Timoteo: sleep for three or four hours, then be back up and like, GIna Beavers: wow. Timoteo: so I would just randomly call him at any time I wanted and we would just GIna Beavers: Nice. Timoteo: like talk for an hour or two. And that was like, and this was only last year. It was like the golden age for me of like telephone conversation. I loved it. I was I love that. I miss GIna Beavers: Yeah, that's yes. I mean I do love that yeah, I do love that once I'm on the phone, like Hane and I will do that call and talk for a couple hours while we're both working. and just have it on speaker and like chat and like that's the best. Yeah. I do I do think that's really great. but you both have to be somewhere in your work where you can just chat. You know, you can't be doing anything, you can't just be yeah, yeah. Timoteo: absolutely. You can't be in a creative, like, no, like I'm working on a painting right now that's pure execution. Like I'm building a whole imposto surface where I'm just in the zone for like, you know, six hours, seven GIna Beavers: cool. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Timoteo: hours on end doing my little mark making. And GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: I can have the most beautiful conversations during that time. I can listen GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: to the most insane podcasts with crazy, GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: you know, about Schopenhauer and Kant GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: and the categorical imperative because I'm just like in this like mental meditative zone. But if I'm doing anything creative, like forget it. I can't talk. I can't GIna Beavers: Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Forget. Timoteo: listen. I can't you know. GIna Beavers: Totally, totally. Yeah. That reminded me of Agnes Martin twice. Agnes Martin has come up in a negative way in conversation. I know. I know. When you Timoteo: What how dare some how GIna Beavers: said that about meditative, somebody was saying, you know, like rejecting Agnes Martin and everything that comes with that. And it was like it was almost as if Agnes Martin was the stand in for like Abex or or like all of modernist abstract painting after nineteen I don't know, it was the strangest thing because I was like also why is she the lightning rod? Because her work has a lot more to do with meditation and, you know, marking moments. Timoteo: Agnes Martin's work is is deeply philosophical. Read her writings. Her writings are bonkers. They are so weird. When I first GIna Beavers: Yes, yes, I know. Yes, I know. Timoteo: discovered her writings, it changed my art, changed my whole philosophy of how I tell GIna Beavers: Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. I I wonder Timoteo: Agnes Martin in front of me. I wouldn't have it. GIna Beavers: No, exactly. I was like both times I was like, Wait, what's going on? Like also you can't Timoteo: Did you ever see my Agnes Martin t-shirt? I made a t-shirt with Agnes Martin on it. Yeah. I'll have to post it because I mean, only the GIna Beavers: Did you? my gosh, I would love that. Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: weirdest weirdo painters have bought it. Like I can't, like, who's gonna buy an Agnes Martin t-shirt? I mean, I've sold like five of them. but the five people who bought them have been Yeah, because I also did a Joan Mitchell t-shirt of like a drawing of Joan Mitchell and GIna Beavers: Yes. Five five special people. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Timoteo: You know, maybe only like five people have bought it, but like those people who bought it wrote to me and were GIna Beavers: Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: like, I never imagined there'd be a t-shirt with Joan Mitchell on. GIna Beavers: So great. So great. You're doing you're doing the work. Yes. Very good. Timoteo: So if anyone has any ideas for other great female painters, I might do another great female painter t-shirt. GIna Beavers: No, I'm kidding. just kidding. Timoteo: the Gina Beaver. GIna Beavers: I l yeah, I love that. Yeah. So let's just like not get ahead of our skis and like reject the only thing I thought is maybe people are misunderstanding Agnes Martin and rejecting Timoteo: Wait, but why but I need to just dial this by personal why were they rejecting Agnes Martin? They thought it was too much in the traditional FX mysticism. GIna Beavers: Well, it was I think that it's it's really like rejecting what you were taught. You know, coming up through a a school you know, an educational program where they taught you about or maybe they had a professor that was like a big fan of Agnes Martin. And so then you're taught this is like and so it's about rejecting what you're taught in this way that was presented to me as sort of like thinking more about the future and breaking but then I was like, but then why is everyone painting like it's like the the sixteenth century, like or seventeenth century? Like if if it's about rejecting Agnes Martin and like sort of a historicizing, then why is everyone Going back 500 years. Like I don't going back to this, like, you know, I don't it was a young b obviously it was a very young artist who was saying this to me. And I'm and I'm struggling Timoteo: Okay, well that makes sense. I mean I you know GIna Beavers: to, you know, I want to understand it, you know, I want to understand the criticism. Timoteo: Yeah. GIna Beavers: But I was like, but then why are we going back to the sort of mannerist or even earlier than her, you know, even just a h a fifty years earlier than her, like sort of early twentieth century kind of mark making and palettes and then why I don't know. Maybe I don't know. Timoteo: But Agnes Martin is not above reproach. I mean, I I have my own I d I can I can kind of criticize GIna Beavers: Nobody's nobody's above reproach, yeah. Timoteo: I can kind of criticize that, well, yeah, Cezanne is above reproach. But I I can kind of criticize that I feel like Agnes Martin has been a little overly preciously canonized in a way. Like I feel like there is this that there is this sort of preciousness that's sort of been built up around her and maybe too much of a GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Mm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Timoteo: mythology of like the you GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Mm. Timoteo: know New Mexico kind of tough woman living in a Puebla kind of thing. Like GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Wait. Did no. W did she live in New Mexico? Did she? I'm looking it up. Timoteo: Yes. Yeah, she moved to she moved she got in like a truck and like moved down to New Mexico and built like a like a clay house, whatever that's called. Like a you GIna Beavers: Are you th Timoteo: know, in in like Taos, New Mexico. No, I'm knocking at George O'Keefe. No. I just mortar did that and GIna Beavers: Are you sure? she died. She died in Dhouse, New Mexico. Yes, you're right. Okay, sorry. Interesting. Okay, yeah. Timoteo: Yeah, and she lived this like very ascetic life of the, you know, very as like a very queer kind of, you know, genderqueer kind of character. She like looked GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Timoteo: very masculine, had a Caesar haircut out of Gertrude GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: Stein, drove like a Volkswagen golf that she could like put her paintings in the back of, listen to Beethoven while she painted. You GIna Beavers: Hm. Timoteo: know, she's there's a whole kind of, you know, it's it's fantastic. And if you're I GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: think for me as a young artist, I was like, wow, this is like This is the coolest thing I can think of. GIna Beavers: Mm. This is very cool. Yeah. But now maybe we're yeah, people are sort of taking that as normal and not a big not a big deal. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Timoteo: Now it's become too normalized, too canonized. She's a museum. There's been lots of shows. Like it's kind of it's a little anesthesized now in a way, if you GIna Beavers: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm. That's interesting. Okay. Yeah. Maybe. it still doesn't Timoteo: That's not her fault. GIna Beavers: yeah, and it still doesn't answer the question then like why are we going back to influences like way before that though? Like why is there so much of a sort of classical painting influence? Is it it's just killing off Timoteo: If you do too much of that, you're gonna end up in the hole. I mean, look at the whole gallery. GIna Beavers: Yeah, w Timoteo: Because one thing that I think that that Kathy Grayson did well is GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: she really discovered painters who by and large were very talented, who really GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: knew how to render in like a realistic or manner style and were like actually she really supported what I would c generally call like great painting, you know, GIna Beavers: Mm. Timoteo: just like from a facility standpoint. But I don't know if it if at the end of the day is Has been her bread and butter. GIna Beavers: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, because she's getting they're getting sued, right? By a couple artists on her non payment. Timoteo: Yeah, I mean it's not a private it's not a private thing. I mean, I've been re you open up Artnet and Art News and they're all reporting about how the hole GIna Beavers: Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Timoteo: is being sued by all this raft of artists who were never paid for work that was sold. And there's a lot of talk now about how actually there's a law that says GIna Beavers: Yeah. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. Mm hmm. Timoteo: that the gallery when they get paid for if they get paid a you know, a thousand dollars for your work of art, they have to put GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Timoteo: five hundred aside for you and keep five hundred for them right away. But most galleries don't GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nobody does that. Timoteo: do that. They're robbing Peter to pay Paul and GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: so end up in the hole, you know, pun intended, and then they can't get out of GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, no, there's I when I used to show with Clifton Benevento and the Loris, well actually they were on Broadway and someone who had worked there went to work in another gallery. And she was like, I just found out that 'cause like Clifton Benevento always paid the artists right away. like would pay the artists and then and so they ended up closing in two thousand sixteen and it wasn't because of anything financial. It was just like simply different visions for where the gallery would go. And the person who would work there said, it turns out when they went to work at other galleries downtown that everybody was was floating, you know, using the artist's half to float the gallery. Like nobody was paying the artist on time or, you know, shoe Timoteo: It's really the business practice. I know the GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: gallerist thinks like, I'm getting like a no interest loan from the artist. Gee, isn't that wonderful? But like that's not how it works. And that's GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Timoteo: actually what's called like a Ponzi scheme. GIna Beavers: Yeah, it's really, really bad. These things that but it's so hard to know from the artist perspective and it depends where you are and your relationship with the gallery and how emerging you are and And you know, artists are kind of always in this weird space of like feeling like they can't ask or they can't push or and you don't really know like, it's sold. what day did it sell? Like, can you send me a document that says it's sold? So now I I should expect to be paid and you know, and galleries will try to push that as far as they can, some galleries, like letting you know like we have interest, it's sold, you know, but I don't have any, you know, and then it's always like, we're on the same side. Because I'm waiting to get paid by the collector, you know. But I was just talking to a collector who another gallery that closed downtown recently, they had paid for something two years ago and they just heard from the artist that they were never paid and the gallery has gone out of business in you know, in the intervening like f recently. Timoteo: mean you have to be careful what you wish for because so many of us wish to be showing and working with galleries that can really the work. But GIna Beavers: Yeah, right. Right. Timoteo: it's like, you know, I think Truman Capote said more tears have been shed from answered prayers than not answered prayers. because I feel like GIna Beavers: That's such a good quote. Timoteo: a lot of those artists who then get with a gallery that's selling the work, they realize, GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: but mm now I'm not getting paid for it, you know. GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: To me, the idea of being owed like $300,000 from a gallery GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: and then realizing you may never get that money would GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: make me go so postal that that person would wish they were. GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, usually the artists that rack up those kinds of debts have other galleries that are paying them. So it's like they're Timoteo: May GIna Beavers: they're like, I'll I'll just you know, they're making a lot of money through other galleries, maybe. And so they're like, Well, you know, I'll wait. 'Cause I've definitely heard of that people having these big balances owed by a gallery, but they're still working with the gallery. Like I would never be I I mean, I had a situation once where I was able to hold back work that was coming back from a museum show that had been sold by a gallery and they hadn't paid me. And so I called the museum and I was like, instead of that work going back to the gallery, it should come to me. And then I held that work. Timoteo: Ooh, Jeannie, you're a badass boss bitch, I love that. GIna Beavers: And I'd rolled up to my studio one day and the gallerist was standing outside, like, I need that piece. And I said, I need Timoteo: Yeah, I don't know. GIna Beavers: to be paid I because they were like, The collector's going wild. I have to send I said, You have not paid me for that piece. Like you're not it was on the museum wall for like three months or something. You had plenty of time or six months. You had plenty of time to pay me, but you're not getting it until you pay me. so in those Timoteo: Gene, I love that you were holding your own art ransom for the money that you were owed. GIna Beavers: To get paid. And the collector went absolute bananas. I hope it didn't like tarnish the piece for them, you know, that they went through this. Like, I know, I hope Timoteo: But it's not your fa that's all the g on the GIna Beavers: it didn't because they, I mean, they were completely down on the gallery. Like, how dare they? And then I was additionally holding up them getting the piece because I was holding literally holding it up. But it's like, you know, I I don't know. I was just so outraged at the time that like. that they would even try to pull this on me and broad it was like broad daylight. Like I see what you're doing. You're not. And the collector kept contacting me. I paid for this piece and I haven't seen it. Where is it? So that's the other Timoteo: Yeah, that's inappropriate too. Yeah. GIna Beavers: thing is like if the collectors, I wish collectors, yeah, hadn't yeah, or just would Timoteo: We're more on top of that or could put the pressure GIna Beavers: like let the the artist but it's yeah, I don't know. That was just a unique situation where I was able to step in and like, yeah, be like, no. But Timoteo: I guess I've been fortunate that every gallery I've worked with that I've sold with has eventually paid me. Some immediately, like you were saying, like will pay you sort of right away. Some took like a year, some took a year and a half, but I eventually always got like paid up. But I was very, you know, tenacious about very you know, like GIna Beavers: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. huh. Uhhuh. huh. Timoteo: when when when can we get paid? But you know, and I guess I've been lucky that none of those galleries went. Bottoms up before I GIna Beavers: Actually went under Timoteo: had gotten paid. But but I was also GIna Beavers: It's kind of a Timoteo: never owed, not one of those artists who was owed like $300,000. GIna Beavers: Right, right, right. I mean it's kind of a harbinger when that starts to happen, when you're really fighting with a gallery to get paid, Timoteo: Yeah. GIna Beavers: that like although I've yeah, I've done that with galleries that are still around. I don't know, they some but I if it's gonna go beyond if you told me that it sold and we're at like month three, I'm pa I'm I'm panicking. Like I'm like I'm being really annoying. I've I've well maybe burned not burned bridges, but just been annoying enough that you know, I'm sure there are people that won't don't want me to be in a group show or whatever because I was just like, I can't I'm not gonna tolerate that. Like that's so disrespectful. It's like it's really embarrassing Yeah. Timoteo: No, you have to stand up for yourself and advocate for yourself. And if you have a leg to stand on, stand on it. GIna Beavers: I mean it's embarrassing when like a work doesn't sell, but like if a work sells and you told me that it's sold and then you're gonna sit there in my face and like not pay me, like that's that's embarrassing for you. Like that's just yeah. But the one person this happened with I recently saw and they gave me a big like this gallerist gave me a big hug. So I guess everything over time, you know, washes away Timoteo: yeah. GIna Beavers: over decades. Over decades everyone could come back around. Timoteo: The only pickle Yeah. GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: The only pickle I've gotten myself into now with art is when I've shown with an Italian gallery. They sold they sold stuff and they paid me for it, but the stuff that they didn't sell that they still have, they've never returned to me. And I can't get it back. Like they're like, you know, it's like in this warehouse, it's in that warehouse that's too expensive, blah, blah, blah. So like here's all this work of mine that I showed in Florence, Italy, like GIna Beavers: Mhm. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well it's like yeah. Right, right, right. my god, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: seven or eight years ago now, that is probably never coming back to me. There's like nothing I can do about GIna Beavers: Yeah. You're never gonna unless you it you You Timoteo: it. GIna Beavers: make a trip, you go there, you pack it up, you send it back yourself. But like who wants to do that? Like and especially now, yeah, I mean that's I mean you could totally do that. Timoteo: Yeah. I mean I like it's just but they don't even know where it is. So like, it's in this warehouse, it's in that warehouse. We don't even know where it is. GIna Beavers: If they can find the warehouse you unstretch it, you put it in a tube, I don't know, and you mail it back to I don't know. Or you or you Timoteo: I that's what it happened. GIna Beavers: pay the overage on your you know, a giant extra bag or some I don't know, something, but yeah. Timoteo: Yeah. But that that's my word of advice though to people who show abroad is that be careful that like getting the work back, they will really bulk that. Like they'll they'll pay for it to get it there because they think they're gonna sell it, but if it hasn't sold, they don't wanna send it back because GIna Beavers: Mm. Mm. Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Right. They don't want it let alone now, because now it's even more expensive than it's ever been. You know. Yeah. Timoteo: Way more, exactly. Really be aware of that or you know yeah. GIna Beavers: Yeah, that's yeah, for sure. It's yeah, I have works out there in Europe that are chillin'. So I don't know. They'll be chillin'. I'm still working Timoteo: And it'll be chilling and tell God only know. GIna Beavers: with those those spaces, so I'm always like, well, maybe something will I dunno, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, yeah. Timoteo: Yeah, well that's okay if you still have an outstanding working relationship with them. I suppose you can just fantasize that it's being held in Yeah. GIna Beavers: Being shown. Yeah, I once I was just telling somebody about this recently. I once had a gallerist like had like a really major work of mine that I made for something, made for them to show. And they were sort of holding over a show at another space of theirs. Like basically, when you agree to show at this other space of ours, then I'll show it to clients. And like they had it overseas. because I was like, what's going on with that piece? They're Well, when you agree to do another show with us we'll show it to people. Is that the dumbest? Like talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Why would you ever do Timoteo: That's a that's such a European scheme. But I'd not GIna Beavers: that? That is like the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Like, like Timoteo: You know, it's also very common now, they're like, we'll give you a show, but there are require and we'll pay for you to come over or whatever, but you need to donate a work to our foundation. GIna Beavers: yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. Right up at the foundations. Timoteo: 'Cause all these Italian groups now have these foundations which are basically GIna Beavers: Yeah. Where you're actually like Yeah, where you're donating a piece. We'll pay for you to come over. You make all the I don't know. Yeah, a donate of work that I don't know. Yeah, this I was just like, You're a gallerist, I'm an artist. Why wouldn't you prove to me that you can sell something? And then I'll do a show with you. Timoteo: No. Well, because they want to take advantage of artists who were like, Ooh, an opportunity, I'll take it no matter what. But like I said, be careful what you wish for. No. GIna Beavers: Right, right. But if you can't sell it, yeah. Show me you can sell the work and then I'll do a show with you. I don't get it. I don't why wouldn't you start small and then but why I I don't know, it was it didn't work out well. Timoteo: I remember I s well one time I started showing with a certain gallery and we had a meeting about GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: working together. And I started drilling them on the financials of their business. Like, where, where, you know, do you have backers or where is the money coming from? Or how are you affording to do this? GIna Beavers: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Timoteo: And they were so cagey and taken aback GIna Beavers: Ha ha ha. Timoteo: that I would ask these kinds of questions. GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: And and I ended up working with them and it was good. They eventually went out of business, but but but I was kinda like in a way should have been like a red flag of like if they're not really able to be if they want to go into a business relationship with me and they're GIna Beavers: Uh-huh. Timoteo: not able to be forward about like how they're really w running their business, then that's kind of a a red flag a little bit. Not that they should be divulging everything, but GIna Beavers: Yeah. A red flag. Yeah. I used Yeah. Timoteo: You know, I wanna know that they're that they're not gonna be running a Ponzi scheme and robbing Peter to pay Polk. GIna Beavers: Right, right. Right. No, that's true. Like, are you yeah. I know I used to have grand thoughts about like whether a gallery that was like all you know, people who'd sort of made their money themselves by selling work. I thought that was a really good sign that if you didn't have money, you didn't come for money, that was a really good sign that you were, you know, somebody like a Gojin who used to sell Timoteo: Right. GIna Beavers: Right, on the s Timoteo: Posters on the street. GIna Beavers: on the street. Yeah, like that kind of energy. but then I also think that that people who have money, who have a space 'Cause I was like, well maybe if you have money then that makes you like lazier about selling work because you don't have that you know, so but I actually think it's like six of one half dozen of like I don't think it really it's really just the person and and sometimes people who have money are more they're they might pay you sooner, you know. they might pay you when they sell something like more easily. So yeah. But yeah. Timoteo: I wanted GIna Beavers: Right. Timoteo: to say though, that I feel like there's so much talk about galleries closing all the time and GIna Beavers: Yeah, yeah. Timoteo: gallery bad practices that GIna Beavers: Yeah. Timoteo: I feel like I I wish that people reported on good news about galleries and galleries opening, you know, GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Timoteo: because I just got this email from Candace Maddie saying that she's closing, but two galleries are springing up in her space. GIna Beavers: And her okay, so that's cool. Timoteo: was Story Gallery and Isabel Waltz Gallery. And they both GIna Beavers: okay. Timoteo: both Nathan Nathan Story and Isabel Waltz GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: worked with Candace and they GIna Beavers: Mm-hmm. Timoteo: have decided they want to open their own congruent galleries in that space. And I feel like that's like worth supporting and talking about because even though everyone discusses how bad the market is and how difficult it is to run a gallery and all these galleries are going out of business. GIna Beavers: Mm. Mm hmm. Yeah. They still believe in it. Yeah. Yeah. Timoteo: Guess what? People are still opening galleries. There still is hope. There are still people who want to believe in it. And I feel like that should be a new story. People should be talking about you know some somebody's success story, somebody opening, somebody having hope. And so I just wanted to mention that at the end of our GIna Beavers: Yes. Yes. Totally. Timoteo: podcast that that there is hope, that there that people are still taking GIna Beavers: Yes. Timoteo: chances and and showing art and opening galleries and GIna Beavers: Totally, totally. I think that's Timoteo: Gun. GIna Beavers: great. I know, 'cause we're now like almost an hour and a half. I I had had this one thing written down which I didn't know, and maybe anyone who has worked in similar ways to me, or I don't know if you also appropriate. But did you know that there's a statute of limitations on copyright? you can o Timoteo: No, what is it? GIna Beavers: two years. You can only I don't know. This was the Jeff Koons case. Maybe I I'm Timoteo: Wait, meaning that if you appropriate someone's image, they have two years to catch you and then you're cool? Is that what you're GIna Beavers: I think s Timoteo: saying? GIna Beavers: I think so. I mean, I think so. I that was my reading of it, which actually is kind of refreshing because it means well, I think it's like, you know, you can't wait for that person to become really famous and make a lot of money and Timoteo: Right. GIna Beavers: then hear about it. I mean and let us know if that's right. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. I Timoteo: Well maybe a lawyer will call into our show and clarify. Although our show isn't a call in show, although GIna Beavers: thought because I saw Jeff Coons just won this case because it was outside The statute of limitations. Anyway, who cares? But like yeah, but just like keep your eyes peeled for people ripping you off and sue them right away. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know. I don't know. Timoteo: And well I watched I think yeah, appropriation is great. Everyone should just be appropriating, it's fine. GIna Beavers: well, this is a long one. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Timoteo: Anyway, all right, we'll enjoy this rest of the July. July's almost over. GIna Beavers: Yes. I'll let you know how Aspen is and all the things I do, all the hiking and all the events and keynotes speeches and Timoteo: yes. Are you all right, so you're go let's just wrap this up with you're going to Aspen for a couple of reasons, I understand. GIna Beavers: Yeah. I have a couple. I have three drawings in the fair with Marianne Boskey. And then I've donated a piece to the Aspen Art Museum. and then Creative Capital has like a dinner that I'm going to. So like I have a bunch of different yeah, there are a lot of reasons to go. So Timoteo: Awesome. GIna Beavers: to go and be the brokest person in Aspen. No. To be Timoteo: Yep. GIna Beavers: and the bottom five percent or whatever, whatever it is. Timoteo: Yeah. Well wear something weird. Wear something weird. GIna Beavers: I know I can't it's like you can't either I can't compete with the like designery of it all so I will be wearing my thrift store finds Timoteo: Yeah. yes you can yes you can. GIna Beavers: I will be wearing my thrift store. I did like vanity wise like do my roots and stuff and I'm gonna do a little facial today but to try to hang. Okay. Timoteo: Good for you. All right, well have fun and I'll catch you on the flip side. GIna Beavers: Okay, bye Tim. Have a great day. Bye. Timoteo: Bye Gina. Bye. GIna Beavers: Bye. Sorry, chose