speaker-1: All right. Well, I'm ready now. So let's get into Welcome, y'all, to Church, the podcast Faith and Spirituality for Everyday People. I'm your host, Penelope French, pronouns they, he. ⁓ today we're getting into a really good conversation. I am ⁓ I'm here with my good sis, Hope Giselle. What's up? What's good? ⁓

speaker-0: It was good, it was me, I'm happy to be here.

speaker-1: like really happy that you're here. I'm really happy that you're here today. We're gonna be having a conversation about us being our own sanctuary and some of that relationship to showing up as black women existing in this ⁓ system that we're inside of and how. In both of our cases, faith and spirituality has played a role in that. I want you to just introduce yourself, because I don't think I'm going to do you. Just.

speaker-0: You know, I suck at this because people say I play modest, but I really, I just suck at it. My name is Hope Giselle Gotsy. I am an activist, author, cultural commentator, and just all around multi-hyphenate. I think that I find myself at the intersection of wanting to be the voice that I felt I needed and becoming a voice that I feel like the people need. ⁓ And so that's me. That's just me in a nutshell.

speaker-1: Yeah. Well, y'all heard it, they have something so great going on right now. They are on tour for the documentary.

speaker-0: Yeah, not your average girl. I'm excited. We have a show in Atlanta on the 10th. It's our final show. So by the time y'all hear this, you're gonna have missed it. It's gonna be missed. It's okay. It's all right. You missed it. But I'm just proud. I think more so than anything, I'm very proud of the fact that... I said I wanted to do a documentary, I did a documentary. I said I wanted to do a tour, I did a tour. And who knows what's gonna come out of it. People are having such a good reception to it. I don't know, the folks are wanting me to do another round. And we gonna figure it out, we'll see. But I'm excited.

speaker-1: I am very proud of you also, the expression, right? The radical expression of this is my world, this is who I am, and these are the things that I'm bringing with me. And it's really a gift to be able to articulate it and allow yourself to be seen. Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: It's hard. think sometimes you think it's cool until it's in front of people and you realize like I watch the film with every like every stop we've been at I sit in the room and I watch the film minus one part that I just can't sit through. ⁓ But I watch it with people and there are sometimes where I'm like ⁓ my god I can't believe I showed y'all that. You know and you're like I'm watching the people laugh or watching the people react and I'm just like ⁓ my god I cannot believe I put this on screen for people to see.

speaker-1: Yep.

speaker-0: It is beautiful, so I appreciate it. And I can't wait for you to see it.

speaker-1: Thank you. It's a superpower. Listen, excited. I'm really excited for it. And I think in this conversation, I want to highlight ⁓ just the ways in which what spirituality may have done for you in this process of bringing this to life or just in your world and how you show up. I'm being real intentional, y'all, because I think it's important, like, this episode is not about your transition. Okay? Right? No. And I want to be intentional about in the conversation, making sure that ⁓ the actual topics that we're talking about are the things that are permeating, but that you're also your lived experience of sharing those pieces that you do want to share. You know? So... I want to know, I asked you if you're a Christian. No. Can't do it. Okay, what has the sacred looked like for you? And tell me why. Were you raised in the church? Were you, okay.

speaker-0: was raised Baptist all the things.

speaker-1: to the

speaker-0: to the bone, you know? I just, don't resonate with it. I think a lot of it is attachment to the church and the religion in and of itself. And so I'm not an atheist. Like I don't, you know, that's not my jam. I don't knock anybody who doesn't believe, but I'm more of a spiritualist. I know that there is something beyond me, beyond us, beyond the galaxies, if you will, that exists that helps this whole thing run. Work out. You know what I'm saying? ⁓ And I believe that that, whatever that is, whether it is ancestry, whether it is a divine single being, or a multitude of beings that have come together to make this thing shake. I believe in whatever those things are that work for the betterment of any and everybody, including myself. And I think that when we think about how that's showing up for this tour, community and the way that community has just offered itself to me, to me, that's spirit. That's God, that's ancestor. Like people have been touched to just come and say,

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: Hey Hope, I know you in town, do you need anything? I have a car. Sometimes y'all don't be renting cars. What's your situation? The woman who decorated the DC spot, ⁓ we had a budget and we could not exceed said budget. And that woman had dreams of doing all of these things to the space. And I was like, man, we just don't have it. And I get to the venue and all of the things that she said she couldn't do were done at the price that we paid. when she pulled me to the side, she pulled me to the side twice, once before the show, and then again when she came back to do the breakdown, and she was just like, I don't know you, but she said, your energy young lady, it's just so, she said, I don't know what it is on you, but she said, I felt it through the phone, and now that you're standing here, I feel it now, and she was like, you just keep up with that energy, and this energy is gonna keep coming back to you, so like, ⁓ Christian, maybe not, but I'm definitely, me and my spirit.

speaker-1: It's what the folks call anointed.

speaker-0: Absolutely. Favorite, as my mother would say, favorite.

speaker-1: And ain't fair. Yes, yes. And ⁓ thinking about when you said community ⁓ in this conversation, that is, we have not had a conversation about faith and spirituality in depth, but I've met you in the act of what I was experiencing as a faith moment. And there's a young person, Tyler, sending love. That was me sending love. wherever Tyler is, but showing up and showing up not empty handed, not just in material need, but in attempting to hold space, attempting to figure out resources that had longevity, all of these things. And I think you and I had never even met each other, but we're on the other side of this, like, okay, so what can we do? Okay, so how can we pull it?

speaker-0: Okay, so y'all gonna go in person because I can't go. Like it was a thing and I appreciated that too. I appreciate that too. Because it's so difficult. I think that sometimes people fail to realize like I'm not just a talking head like I'll get on the plane and pop out and so it just meant so much to have people who were like you don't have to do that we gonna take we gonna make sure it's here we're gonna connect we're gonna do the things and it was it we didn't have to do the the pleasantries and the introductions it was like okay we working on the ground. Yes. We see what you're doing. can do the...

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: After it's over, we can get to know each other. And I just, love that. I love that. And I never got a chance to thank you. Like, thank you.

speaker-1: Yep. And thank you. I think in that community, that spirit, that collective ⁓ purpose and in those moments, I think the ability to make sure that we got that done was, was not only beautiful, I also felt like it was a moment that completely goes against the narratives and shit around how black women can't work together.

speaker-0: nothing, can't even raise money for the babies. And it's just like we show people in that moment like we can. And we did.

speaker-1: We can. We can and we did. And we're gonna get into it even more, but just like the connectiveness of understanding how black women have been the foundation of the black church. Motherboard.

speaker-0: Baby, deacon ass. That one lady that can't let anybody else get a solo. Like, I mean... Baby!

speaker-1: in the, sitting in the pew, yeah. And the ways in which faith has been foundational to how black women show up in this society, how we answer the call every time. And the, for me, as someone who was raised in the pathway of becoming clergy and went on that journey, to see the divisiveness that happens at the attempted difference in differentiating between cis and trans.

speaker-0: It's gonna happen every time.

speaker-1: It's gonna happen every time. And I think that that is also connected back to religion, the construct of it, and the ways in which the perpetuation of the domination or oppression we experience as women in that system, and then perpetuating that on every subgroup or sub sub of a sub sub.

speaker-0: Come on. I think that especially as women in the church. we're forced to constantly see everybody else as something to be lifted up, as something to be praised, as something to be exalted on top of exalting the Lord our Savior, right? And then being told that we are there to be subservient to all of these powerful men and all of these powerful entities and people while leaving ourselves behind. Every conversation is about the pastor who is usually a man. Every conversation is about the deacons who are usually men. But the people that keep the church going, the people who making... Look here. But the prophetess is the one that comes and brings the people to their knees with that truth that comes from that thing that even I don't have. There is something that's deeply rooted and embedded in being a biological woman with a tie to this creation that happens in there for the people that choose to be creators and the people who just don't. Like there is something there and it's just like, but my entire existence at this space that's supposed to be about uplifting all of us, is to make the men look good. So I gotta do the fish fry. Grandma and them gotta make the cakes and the pies and the things to keep this going. But the men get to sit back and eat and hop up on the pulpit sweat while they brown. And they get they plate first. And then we're teaching this to young women. Oh no, don't you dare sit down there and not fix that boy no plate. Don't you dare do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do

speaker-1: Thank Bro. Rub they leg.

speaker-0: rubbed the legs and man spread in the front row looking at the young ladies but god forbid a woman comes in with a skirt that doesn't just cross or overpass her knee it's it's crazy and i think that like when we think about what it means to even be feminine in the church because the church will pretend like it doesn't acknowledge or or care about you know the gay men or the feminine men in the but y'all do

speaker-1: or the pre- femininity the performance I

speaker-0: Which y'all do. The church don't respect homosexuality, but it does because you also force, if you gonna be a gay man in that way, then be a gay man in that way, but we're gonna hold you to the same standards that we hold the women to. So no, you're not gonna be around here in your little tight pants. You're not gonna be, because all of these things are to keep you from enticing the men who we're supposed to continue to exalt. And that's crazy.

speaker-1: Damn, it's crazy. It's crazy for sure. And I think that that piece around, hey, let me make sure that I stick to this program so that anything that shows up outside of the program, my response is to do the same thing that they do.

speaker-0: Absolutely.

speaker-1: And so for ⁓ your relationship with faith over your experience ⁓ in transition, what did that feel like for you?

speaker-0: You know, I didn't really tie those two together. My life is my life, and I don't attribute that to anybody. Like, I think one of the things that people say is that, like, your path is ordained before you even get here. Like, you know, the being knows what you're gonna do before you know what you're gonna do. And so I've settled in the fact, well, if you know what I'm gonna do before I know, then why am I tripping about it? Like, I'm just, I'm late to the party. You already knew what decision I was gonna make. I was contemplating for six months, and you knew at the end of the line I was gonna say, okay, I'm gonna go ahead and do that. So like...

speaker-1: No.

speaker-0: I think like beating myself up about the fact that like transitioning was a thing for me that I felt necessary wasn't something that I needed to do because I've been told my entire life that God already knows and God is a keeper and God is all of these things.

speaker-1: And you internalize and believe those. I believe that. Yes, yes. Yes.

speaker-0: And I believe that so I'm gonna be straight. Yes, if it wasn't supposed to happen, I wouldn't have got the money so because Here's the other thing when there are things in your life that are not supposed to happen, you know No, even if you manage to get it done something goes wrong

speaker-1: You know.

speaker-0: You know you weren't supposed to skip class. You know you weren't supposed to skip class. Because your teacher who was supposed to be out that day, she came to school all of a sudden. Your best friend who was supposed to go with you got sick that morning. The lunch lady who usually in the lunch line that give you the one-two to open the door to the back that y'all was gonna skip out of, she wasn't at work that day. And you still managed to convince yourself that you was supposed to leave. And then you walk out the back door and the postman... If it's not meant for you, there are telltale signs and there are obstacles and there are things that happen so that that way when you have to learn that lesson the hard way, you remember all of the times that you could have turned around and made a different decision. And my transition has always been an easy one, maybe not socially. But medically, I was in Alabama, Montgomery, Alabama. The doctor who was the only doctor who could prescribe us had his license threatened. And this was before this new regime that we're in. That man had his license threatened. He still was willing to give me and the one other trans person our medicine. No problem. When I did not have health insurance before I got my job at MAC, I was able to go on to a little black market website. I don't encourage it, but... when it's who you are and you feel without your things, I did what I had to do. No health complications because of it, nothing went wrong during that time. And once I got on my health insurance, even though I was in Texas, everything was a smooth transition. had no, and so I, I, fighted hard. carried. did, did, did.

speaker-1: It's, yeah, the journey, it was ordained as they would say. It was ordained.

speaker-0: Yeah, it was ordained. this is who, if I wasn't supposed to be Hope, I wouldn't be Hope. It's just that.

speaker-1: Yeah, and I think about ⁓ being intentional about the discourse that happens because most of the black community is churched. And it completely impacts the way that we engage people in the world on a consistent basis. And I think about ⁓ my experiences inside of the church with trans people coming into the church, ⁓ me experiencing my transness in being someone who is a minister and leading people and the experiences that were there, I think what you just articulated is what some people wish they had the ability to articulate clearly, but they, I've seen the tear down. You've seen the, I think one of the biggest things that the black church used to, to say all the time was like, this is a mental health issue. And I'm just like, as a person who believed that at one point, right? To sit in this reality that the representation of being able to be who you know yourself to be inside, outside, that is the blueprint, right?

speaker-0: But it is a mental health issue, just not a negative one. And I think that that's the thing, like, I'm done trying to prove to people that, like, this is not something that's involving mental health. Not being able to be who you are, period, whether that's trans, whether that's cis, whether that, like, whatever that case is, like, imagine loving the Lord with your entire heart, having it put on your heart, a new message every day, something, I mean, something that the people need to hear. and having somebody tell you, no, you can't do that. I need you to, you can't be included in that. For no other reason than just because they don't believe that you should be able to. And you have to, like, you have to not, like, mentally you would not be okay because you're a minister. This is who you are at your core. This is what you feel. You've never been a minister. You don't know what it feels like to actually lead a flock.

speaker-1: You're not included.

speaker-0: You don't know what it's like to actually have that weight put on you. But it's tear you apart. Instantly, physically, spiritually, it eats you up to not be able to get these messages out. Same thing. Not under the same context. But anything that you can't go to sleep, wake up without thinking about, you can't go days without, there's not a day that I will wake up.

speaker-1: It you apart. Tears you apart.

speaker-0: that it would not bother me to be living in a body that did not align with me. For a real pastor, for a real person of God, there's not a day that you wake up that a word in that book don't eat at your soul. There's not a conversation you have that a word that somebody gave you don't sit on your chest, that you have to share because that's what you want to do. You want to share the goodness. It's purpose. And so imagine somebody telling you you couldn't do that.

speaker-1: Yup.

speaker-0: Just cuz, and then calling it a mental illness. Cuz you think you a pastor. It is, it's a mental health issue because it blocks my ability to show up mentally, but it's not a negative. And I think that that's the thing that we have to reclaim and we have to take back. It is a mental health issue because if I'm unable to do this, I cannot show up mentally for y'all in the best way possible. My physical should align and make me feel comfortable. We all do it. But now I should be able to do it in a way that allows me to be able to come to this job. and be the X, Y, and Z that I am outside of this trans person. The trans person keeps me stable, but this over here brings me joy. And I should be able to bring both of those people together at the same time.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. I love the way you're articulating. just, being on the other side of ⁓ pastoral care and sitting with so many people who felt like they had to get rid of their faith. They had to get rid of their spirituality, physically. And to... just hear you be like, never was a moment in time because of this, because this told me, because, and it, for me, shows that line of ⁓ functionality of faith, the functionality of Christianity in its extremes also, right? It being accountable to itself, but also its ability to give us what we need as black people. And we made it do that. We brought all our shit with us from our traditions, our ancestors. We threw it in one pot and we called it the Black Church. I don't think that there is any such thing as Black Christianity. I mean, I don't think that there is such thing as Black Christianity. I think that it's Black religion. And I say that ⁓ from the perspective that it is a complete gumbo pot or whatever you wanna call it, gulags, conglomerate of all the knowings, of all the wisdoms. Can you like all of them though?

speaker-0: all of it at once living. And I think that's the beauty of it. That's why black church is so, it's spell binding. You go to a black church and, right. Okay. I saw it. Cause it is, right. For that hour, two hours under the spell people. But okay. All right. ⁓ But it's one of those things where don't nobody do.

speaker-1: Because it is. Okay.

speaker-0: Spirit like us. Yeah, cuz ain't nobody tapped in anybody. Nobody's more hurt And I I say this with reverence for the indigenous community I say this with reverence for the the Indian and Asiatic community I say this with reverence for the Aztec community and the Jews but that even that has nuance right, but I Say this with reverence for all those people, but I think that The amount of blood spilled, the sacrifices made, the I would rather die by sea than get over there and have y'all mutilate me the way y'all think y'all about to do. That carries over a span that we will never understand. Our blood, our bodies, our history is in parts of this land embedded in the bedrock.

speaker-1: The Sacrifice.

speaker-0: that some of us will never be able to, like we're never gonna be able to uncover all those people that chose the sea. And I think that when we get into that church, those people who were muffled by the waves come out, that's tongues. Y'all wonder what that sacred, that's tongues, that's the language of the people floating that couldn't, but they're exalting, I'm gonna be okay because you said I was gonna be okay, even on my way down, I'm good, even chained, I'm good and I can't express it.

speaker-1: Never. Yups.

speaker-0: But with my last breath, give honor to God. I'm sorry, but people wonder where it comes from. I'm just like, y'all tap into it and you'll feel it.

speaker-1: You'll feel it. It is definitely ⁓ something that overwhelms you, but the language is across you. Our blood is everywhere. It's everywhere. I think that oftentimes I think of in these white folks or whoever else is in control or think they're in control, but in their attempt to to harm, kill, disperse, take us from our lands and everything, what you did was actually put us everywhere. And if we had the opportunity to stop caring about everything else other than being black and this experience we hold and look up together, not just look up, look around and look around and see we are everywhere. So as much as we have also experienced this, What they did was disperse us in a way that they could never get rid of. They could never, you know? And I do believe though that if people or the black church could really see what was in the room with them, it would win if they could see.

speaker-0: on which all are really invoking.

speaker-1: what is in the room with you, there would be a greater depth of understanding that black people really are not a monolith. And specifically around how queer and trans people have shown up in our communities historically has been at the center of our spiritual practices. It has been at the central of our chosen ones in our communities. ⁓ And that for me, has always been connected to a reality that I hold within my own body, that it is something different than when someone can exceed above these lines that you have drawn for them, like fuck the box, and they hover outside of the box. And for me, queer people, trans people, your box means nothing to me. Your box means nothing to me. I exist in many worlds at one time. I exist in many realities at one time. I am multifaceted all at one time. ⁓ And I think it's such a shame in the black church that we have such a great opportunity that we miss out every time someone shows up differently.

speaker-0: You know, I think that some of that is due to the fact that we're afraid to let go of patriarchy as our saver, as our savior. I think there was a time, you know, for black people where men had to show up and be the protectors because there was just this expectation that men were going to get it in a way that women weren't going to get it. And I don't know why, right? Like the world is on fire and we all look at one of them like, hey, save us, right? It's this knee jerk reaction that we have that I don't want us to necessarily let go, but it's a thing where it's just like, if we really honored the fact that everybody has the potential to lead, it then puts, I think, black men in another space where they feel like they are inferior. Because black women and black femmes and black queer people tend to excel naturally. When you look at most CIS-HED black men, they struggle a little bit. And I think that church is a place where we exalt them unapologetically.

speaker-1: He's designed that way. It's their vacuum of power. It's their pathway to power in our community. Become a pastor. ⁓ Start your own church, build it. I mean, people are building their own churches.

speaker-0: You want to feel like the biggest man? Go become a pastor. Build it and they will come. And when they get there, you get to tell them what to believe, how to think, who to believe, and everything else. You get to be the king of that castle.

speaker-1: ⁓ I think I've consistently thought about the ways that Christianity and religion in general has impacted the way we just connect to one another in general. ⁓ There is this talk about the neighbor. It's the talk that we should look out for the person next to us. It's the talk that this is what it says. And even if you are not Christian across multiple belief systems, there's always the neighbor, the stranger, the alien.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: that we have been told to engage as if we were, we would want someone to engage us or all of these other things. And it is the thing that I think the black community struggles with so much. it's the depth of the connection too, right? Cause I'm sorry, I'm not no surface bitch. I'm gonna be very real. If it's surface level, we gonna talk, hey, it's cute. That's wonderful. That's good. I'm really not, we not gonna sit here and talk about the niceties and the top level, but I think we have lost how to relate to one another as the black community. And we've allowed the platforms and the media to communicate to us who we are, what the culture is to us. And we think because it's an opportunity that that means that, ⁓ okay, yeah, I'm doing this for the culture because. some person, some white executive gave me an opportunity and I'm, and it said it was important and I'm doing it for the culture. And at the same time being also critics of the black community from those seats, from those microphones, from those, we've completely forgot how to relate to one another. And, and again, for my own self that's been directly connected back to the simple principle of belief. When you believe something, it stems everything that you do. It comes from that, but we won't interrogate our beliefs because it means losing our comfort. It means losing our positions. It means losing our labels. It means losing money. And that, to me, is what the celebrity is. The celebrity is the people that have been extended the buy-in. Okay, we'll give you a little money, but we know you don't have the systems. to maintain and sustain it. So each, if we give this person a little bit over here in a little bit, we create the illusion of ⁓ our communities collectively going somewhere or doing something. I'm even talking about on these podcast microphones. Know when you're in the background, you're fighting for the access.

speaker-0: knowing that y'all are gonna fight for the access. That's, but my thing is that's the point. The point is to give you a little so that you fight for the optical illusion of having a lot. There's a reason why we always feel like there can only be one. There's a reason why we can have 50,000 Kanye's and Jay-Z's, but we can only have one Beyonce. There's a reason

speaker-1: There's a reason. I'm sorry, but I think it's a little crazy. feel like Beyonce don't talk a whole lot, and I feel like the world's built a personality for her. I don't even know what this girl's voice sound like.

speaker-0: I'm just gonna, she has a way of just, y'all make me so happy. Look, school of Beyonce, A plus through this.

speaker-1: Yes. Okay, you're doing very

speaker-0: It's one of those things where like they, think oftentimes the church does the same thing. They give you this illusion of having power over something. We've seen it a thousand times with the music director or the board of the deaconess or the board of the motherboard. There's all of these different things, but really you're just fighting for access to have power to be seen as valuable by the pastor. That's it.

speaker-1: Yep, exactly. Exactly. That is it right there. And the mini gods, I call them mini gods. The formulation of I'm a tiny god in community. I you're be god in your world, but to other people, I need to, if I be lifted up, I draw all men unto me. And the repetitiveness of that and how we approach these things. I really am like, I'm pushing connection. I really don't wanna get on microphones talking about the, because men should be like, nah, because it should be like, they ain't doing this and they ain't doing that. And I'm like, nah, can we push connection? Can we push like, nah, I understand. I see you, I'm having this experience. Can we push that? Because it's stifling us in a way that makes me concerned about when... when the things do happen. think we'll always figure it out as black people. That's all we done had to do is figure the shit out. They're intentionally tying our hands behind our backs so that we cannot.

speaker-0: We Latin them in the name of the new Balenciaga bag. And we're letting them in the name of that new Rolls Royce that's out there. And we're letting them in the name of being able to say, got the shoes that you want. Like that's the whole thing. Church has become a fashion show, a gossip blog. It's become a space of judgment when it was supposed to be everything. it's become the antithesis of what they tell you and what they advertise. When you pop in and they're ⁓ everybody stand up if it's your first time and they invite you in.

speaker-1: Yep from the beginning

speaker-0: It's a show. It is that man that told you that he had a yacht and he was an investment banker and all of the things and you ate and you drank and that night was awesome and y'all did drive away in a Maserati. But a week later you realize that that was his brother's stuff and his brother is gone. And he's still trying to sell you on the fact that he did. the Maserati because his brother got the Maserati. Yeah. So if you just ride a little bit longer. Hold on. We gonna be. I think the fuck not.

speaker-1: If you just hold on, just hold on a little while longer. Yes, ⁓ my goodness. think that seeing the ways that ⁓ church has also been a part of entertainment, the entertainment industry, I do not see them separate from one another at all.

speaker-0: Kimberl broke that glass ceiling and everybody has been pouring through it since then

speaker-1: You know, it's even from then to all of the people, Creflo Dalla, all these other people, like...

speaker-0: Miracle mana still takes me out because when I was a kid I really thought that that brain was gonna work. I really did. And the fact that this man is still pushing miracle mana. Cause what is mana? ⁓

speaker-1: It's all that you need. It's all that you need. It's included in it all. My God. Okay, I'm sorry. But it is the entertainment industry is such a big part and that's why we see so much symbolism in entertainment concerning church. It's a reason why the dogma or the rhetoric that comes out of it that is extreme gets pushed because of its connection with entertainment ⁓ and then we respond to it when we see the imagery of devils and in different things is ⁓ my gosh God is not in that image of of this and it's just like I want us to push it a little bit further than that I want us to move past that just a little bit further and realize how

speaker-0: next

speaker-1: much of ⁓ our celebrities, again, have been used as ways to keep us disconnected, misinformed, ill-informed, and just completely, again, from our reality that we're experiencing every day as black people, and them being used as pawns to do that, while at the same time having whatever spiritual experiences they are having.

speaker-0: Absolutely. behind closed

speaker-1: behind closed doors. I'm really getting into it because I was talking about it again again, like yay. I think a lot of people are going up about Kanye who has aligned himself as, you know, Yeezus in alignment with the church and Christianity. Now, here's my take. I just feel like y'all don't know that nigga. Y'all don't know that man. There's no part of you that is, is. familiar with Kanye beyond what the media, which we know is owned and is used to oppress us, oppress messages and against us to make the people we do see as figures appear to us certain ways. We know that, right? At the same time, we won't go to our homie and be like, bro, you need to chill out on that shit. Homegirl, that's just not it. We not moving that way. Or the fact that like, You, you're still homophobic, you're still transphobic, you are elitist. You don't even like black people for real. There's only a certain type of black people you like to be around. And there's this correlation of black people being lost because they're going to a Kanye concert. This is kind of crazy. If we really go and this, this does not make sense that that is the bar for the liberation. And hearing people say, black people, we ain't going nowhere. I don't agree with that. I don't, that statement, starting off with that statement, black people ain't going nowhere, watch your mouth. That's a get to my life. But I don't understand this need to make someone that you don't know or have any personal relationship, they need to show up a certain way, but in your immediate communities, y'all not speaking up for that shit. Y'all not, go outside right now. I want y'all to go outside on the street right now. Go meet your neighbors and be with them and then tell them, that ain't cool. Go to your job. That's racist as fuck and they don't wanna.

speaker-0: And you ain't gonna do that. You ain't gonna do that! You're not gonna do that.

speaker-1: Because being real and accountable requires you to lose again everything. It will require you to literally look at everything and say, this is all a lie and this ain't real, this ain't any of that. And so y'all prop Kanye West up as an opportunity to stay committed to your delusion. It's Kanye West's fault. But I also wanna swing it on the other side of Kanye West is an artist. And if we're talk about artists in this country and what they've meant for black liberation and the experiences that we've had, and when they get in the hands of ⁓ executives and all of those different things, and they are harmed, they're drugged, they're exploited, they are torn down, and they're picked to pieces and given back to us, and we make our decisions based off of knowing that they are also victims of this system, and then we call Kanye anti-black, I'm sorry, the call is coming from in the house.

speaker-0: Your best friend is anti-black and you fuck with her hard hard your mom is anti-black ⁓ but you gonna be at dinner every Sunday without saying anything cuz I'm not saying throw your mama away But I'm saying the same smoke you got for me for going to a concert Why you ain't got that for your daddy? Who is a misogynist who's been beating your mom and everybody talks about it including me the best friend who's been around for 20 years But we're not allowed to say that he's a misogynist and an abuser But you gonna get on me because Jesus walks him on the radio and I inherently just sang the song because it was nostalgic. Make it make sense. know what I mean? That's I don't either. And as far as I'm concerned, this is just a song. This is just a song. And I had a moment because I think that there are some people who are committed to the act of saying like, no, I can't separate the music from the artist and it's harmful. And so we do that because I'm like that about a couple of people. But I think that to not have grace for the people in your life who are actively trying.

speaker-1: Y'all don't know what I mean.

speaker-0: But then having all of this grace for people in your life who you know or not. Yeah. In certain ways, but because this is the social media trend, this is what we're doing on social media right now. That's where you gonna lose your- Okay, that's the hill you gonna die on.

speaker-1: That one? Okay. That's all I'm saying, like, and this may feel like a controversial statement to niggas, but hearing slavery was a choice, I don't disagree with that statement in connection to my reality. And not because my body wasn't in it. I understand. There's, from my own experiences of abuse, you know what goes into someone not having the will to fight, right? But also too, I- I'm sitting at the intersection of that, in our history books, they don't tell y'all there were so many slave rebellions in this country or other places. They don't tell y'all that there is an outnumbering of us at some point that didn't make slavery sustainable in this country. So at some point, we did realize it was a choice. We fought back. We did realize, and I think And again, I'm not going up for Kanye. What I'm saying is in the distortive world where that's the thing I'm gonna hang my hat on and say, well, he can't be saying crazy shit. And so I'm gonna be disposable of him. My black radical principles are just as they are. I don't think black people are disposable. I think you absolutely need to watch when niggas show you who they are and how you need to navigate with them. And if it's a little bit of it at a distance, cool, you over there, so forth. But I don't think that black people are disposable. That's a hard thing for me when disposability is different for me than you shouldn't be in my life in these ways. And I struggle with that, but it's again all connected back to belief. I struggle with that because of my, the way beliefs or how I was raised. And so I'm seeing Christianity, church, religion in this conversation around Black liberation, anti-blackness.

speaker-0: constantly being interwoven and pulled. I think what I, I feel like I'm Harriet to the bullshit. Everybody can't come. And some of y'all gonna have to get shot in the face because you can't be trusted not to come and to stay where you at and be okay with that and be okay with that decision. You all really can't come. But too, I think that that's what we defer because I'm a radicalist in that because Harriet didn't have to shoot them.

speaker-1: Some of you can't come. I agree with that.

speaker-0: but she had to shoot them for the betterment of the entire group. can't let you, I can't risk the fact that we gonna leave you here and when they finally do come to pick you up, I can't assume that they gonna kill you. I can't assume that you're gonna go back to the plantation and not tell people the first couple of stops along the way. Because now when I plan on coming back because I do, now Mr. Rachel, ⁓ Ms. Rachel and Mr. John who were the first two stops ain't there. And now I got, 20 people that were ready for freedom that you done fucked up. And there are so many

speaker-1: I agree with, no, no, I agree with the you can't come and I'm have to shoot you if you with me. ain't with us. has had a completely different experience than the average black person. Like he had, most of the niggas that we see talking, our talking heads are having a different experience.

speaker-0: Yeah. Okay. But to your point, I just piece what you're saying together. Y'all be trying to act like these people with us. They're not with us. So why you press? They're not with, like, there's no reason to be upset because you think they're in your camp. Right, because that ain't got nothing to with That's what I'm saying. Okay, heard. We spending too much time on peace.

speaker-1: What now can we pay attention to? Too much time on this shit. We don't know them and they they're not in the camp. They're not that wasn't coming We knew they wasn't coming to begin with No, they never came over there and so I'm like again this relatability and connection

speaker-0: They don't notice that because they never To people that we don't know, rather than connecting with our neighbor, going across the street, meeting those people and holding them accountable because they are the people that affect us on a daily. Not this millionaire man that you see on a screen or at a concert for $500,000 of your money that you don't have.

speaker-1: your money. But that's, that's in like you said, connected to how we experience of being churched. We stayed at the church even when we knew the pastor wasn't shit to hell or the people that, but we stayed committed to proximity to power. And that's all I'm saying. We ain't got to too much more.

speaker-0: But I get it. thank you for like really, cause I was like, I'm with you, like there's, can't really, I- No, but like, no, but I get it because it's just like, no, y'all are missing the mark. I'm not like you right. Niggas that was with us that turned out to be on that fuck shit. They do have to go. But we focus on people that wasn't with, like we, we're basing this off of the fact that Kanye is black.

speaker-1: I'm finna ⁓

speaker-0: And so we believe that like inherently he down with the get down. And it's like, but no, his black experience and your black experiences are not the same black experience. And instead of y'all taking that energy and directing it towards people whose black experience is yours, i.e. your neighbor, your bestie, your mama, grandpa them, you are directing all of this energy at some entity online that you don't know. And then what you do bring back to the people that you do know. is some abstract version of what you think sanctity looks like through the lens of, heard.

speaker-1: like this, this ain't it. We need to be in practice for real in our communities. yeah. ⁓

speaker-0: Some of y'all ain't gonna get that till next week, but it's okay.

speaker-1: Listen to this podcast a couple of times. Yeah, let it fall where it...

speaker-0: It took me a minute so I know the listener's gonna be like, no. But no. You gotta listen to it a couple times. Cause I was like, I'm trying to follow but ah! I'm on the track. I'm on the track. just got there.

speaker-1: You think Harriet Tubman was trying to help ⁓ Masters-

speaker-0: No, they wasn't The house niggas was never on the list. Y'all were never on the list to be saved. I'm sorry. And you might've wanted to get free. For real, for real.

speaker-1: But you gonna have to get it without me. Without me? You gonna have to get it without me. That's it right there. ⁓ So I want to transition a little bit because I did want to talk just with you ⁓ in general because we had this conversation offline some. But going back to the black church, black women and black church in ⁓

speaker-0: Hard.

speaker-1: the relationship between black cis women and black trans women.

speaker-0: Okay.

speaker-1: What has been your experience from black cis women who are from the church or are religious?

speaker-0: Well, I mean, as a black cis woman myself. ⁓

speaker-1: Ha

speaker-0: ⁓ Anyway, my bad, just had to get that out of my system. ⁓ But no, to be perfectly honest... As a woman, it's been great. I think that women in the church had an issue with me when I was just a gay man. To be perfectly honest, I feel like, also respectability politics, passing privilege and all of that stuff, do think play a role in the way I am received by women in the church. And I think it's because a lot of women in the church have an understanding of what trans women are supposed to be like based off of what they see on social media and the movies. And so when they meet me, they're like, ⁓ girl. could deal with you. You know, and so there's that auntie, grandmother, mom energy that comes toward me naturally. that comes towards me naturally just because respectability works in my favor. How and so ever, I think like as a young man, because of that patriarchy in the church thing, there is a desire for young men and men in general in the church to show up a certain way. Yeah. You can't come in here with your lip gloss popping as a young man. You can't come in here with them pants too tight as a young man. You can't do all of those things. But as a woman, as long as you're doing it right.

speaker-1: You can do it.

speaker-0: Like, I find like people talk all of that crap online.

speaker-1: That's what I was about to say. It's like online and even in previous circles, I've not experienced someone disrespecting another woman of the trans experience in front of me. But what I have experienced is the articulation of not really understanding and probably this.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: concept that like I see online that's perpetuated a lot ⁓ Which is a lot of the followers of like who that nigga that

speaker-0: Pfft.

speaker-1: Umar! The DL Whisperer. I'm

speaker-0: When we talk about mental health like seriously when we talk about church intervention

speaker-1: Seriously and I just the people who are like responding to those things of this immediate like no because I'm not gonna say that that's a woman or I'm not gonna say like those type of narratives and I think It'd be frustrating to me to see Kind of the discourse that I do see around the inability for black women to be black women together that is not like the real shit that's not grounded in the underground, the feelings that we have not yet worked through.

speaker-0: It's not difficult for me though. I said this years ago on the grapevine and a young woman who I was just exposed to, blue-centric, they had a clip that went viral a couple weeks back. ⁓ But she echoed what I said years back and it's the fact that like I get it. Like as a dark skinned black woman who is assumed to be cis, I'm treated like a dark skinned black woman in the world, which means I get it. Like I understand that you got this exotic girl over here, you got this, you know, Latino woman over here, you got all of this stuff over here, men already barely respect you, and then there's the light skin over here and the mocha over here, and then you darken it. There are so many politics, and there's so many people that black women have to acquiesce to. And then you turn around and you tell me that I gotta turn around and acquiesce to this girl who used to be a boy, who now is a woman, and now I have to exalt her in the same experience that I have, not knowing. what kind of boy she was, what kind of man she was or might have been before transitioning. And I got to give her the same amount of grace that I've had as a black woman who knows that I've been abused, that I've been underpaid, that I've been overworked, that has been divorced or whatever the case may be. And it's not to say that all black women have some like, you know, sister soldier song of trauma. But it is to say that for the most part as a black woman, and I go even deeper to say as a darker skinned black woman, everybody wants something. Yep. Everybody always asking for a piece of grace or a piece of this or a piece of that. And the second that a black woman opens up and says, but can I have what next time? And I think that that even pertains to some of the trans women that I used to rock with. It was, ⁓ they can listen to you talk about being trans and understand your thing. And she's expected to nod and say, ⁓ my God, that's so fucked up. And I get it. And I understand you, my sister. And the second that she opens her mouth to say, but you know what does make me uncomfortable? Bitch, shut up.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah.

speaker-0: You don't have the right to be uncomfortable. But you just had the right to be uncomfortable as fuck. And she held that. And mind you, she was talking to you and she could have been at home with her baby. You finna leave here and go get margaritas and she's gonna leave here and hope that her baby's still up long enough to get a good night kiss. And you got the nerve to sit your trans ass up here and act like

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: Do you know, just because. And I think that it's not what you do, it's not what you say, it's how. And a lot of the time, my sisters don't know how to say the thing because some of it is not dismissal for the sake of being dismissive, it's dismissal because from the time, it's survival. And from the time you found your voice, somebody told you that it shouldn't sound like that. So when you're giving the audience, you long winded this fuck, you got so much to say and you don't wanna hear what nobody else has to say because nobody wanted to hear what you had to say. And instead of us expressing that, we get upset or we cut off other people, mainly other women, and we blame it on the fact that we've been oppressed without remembering, sis. You're trans and you became oppressed once people discovered that information about you. But imagine being five and being oppressed because you had on a bathing suit and wanted to eat your mango with your legs sitting up on the porch and you got an ass whooping for it. Not a talking to, not a pow pow, but a whole ass whooping because a grown man might, not even did, fuck you.

speaker-1: Might look at you. Yeah. Yes. And in my engagement with you, like, it feels easy. It feels easy. But hearing that narrative is, again, for me, it's not familiar for me to hear a narrative of like, I get it, I understand. And I think that I also sit at a place where it's like, get it. Like. As someone who is on the front lines fighting, then I get it. I understand.

speaker-0: And I don't think I deserve disrespect, but I do, I think that there's a place that we should hold the both and. We should be able to listen to each other. and resonate where we both resonate, learn where we don't, and then move forward together. There's no space where we shouldn't be able to hold space and conversation. I can't have a conversation about what it's like to go and experience period cramps or all the things, but I can't talk about that speculum being put up in me and how uncomfortable that is on them goddamn stirrups. That shit is annoying. Hate it. I can talk to you about that, Mamma Bram, and I don't want you squeezing my titty no more.

speaker-1: I'm

speaker-0: We can resonate there. when I can't, I'ma shut the fuck up. And I expect the same grace. And as long as we're giving each other that respect, why we gotta argue? Niggas gonna nigg on both of us. So arguing about which one of us did these niggas want or which one of them they done had or which one of them they don't want. They gonna nigg regardless. They gonna be niggas at all times. But whatever hole is ready for them.

speaker-1: competition. Niggas gonna be ⁓

speaker-0: not to be confused with people who actually have taste, because most of them do not. If you have a hole in you are offering, they are down. Most of them. Right? You know, and so I just think that as women, there is a discontention and there's a disconnection. But I think that it comes from a male's desire to keep us disconnected and in fear of what happens if true sisterhood starts to spark here.

speaker-1: of them. fear.

speaker-0: What happens if there is a true understanding, if there's a true diversity of womanhood? Yep. And what it looks like when trans women do expose that, no, niggas do that on purpose.

speaker-1: And on the other side of that, to be also given what that experience and the expansive experience of what manhood is, men want the same thing, right? Because over here on the same site, there's not one way a man is supposed to show up. And even in our insular community, the LGBTQ LNOP, even in our insular community, that relationship to how do y'all not see this as a reflection of the fact that in, like for instance, gay men, you want to be validated in your manhood, in your experience. Just because you're not throwing trans over it doesn't mean you're not having this experience. And so I just, in this conversation, us just taking it a step. further, just thinking a little further than the experiences that we've naturally been having that aren't natural at all, but the experiences that we're having in this world and, you know, us being a little bit intentional, a little bit more intentional about connection. like you said, I think that's where spirit happens. Community, connection.

speaker-0: have amazing black women in my life. have amazing black women. And the craziest part about it is I have more black women who are cisgender women than I do trans women. And I think it's because there's this scarcity mindset of the, I call it the, I'm sorry, Laverne, don't want to do that, but I call it the Laverne mentality where everybody's looking to be the next Laverne. Everybody wants their seven year run where they're the only person on the track. And I think that with my cisgender women, it's just like, y'all gave up on being the only bitch on the track a long time ago. It's like I only, I need to be in front for this specific moment. I need you to be my support system. But like once I'm done with that, we can run together again and I'm gonna let you get your ones. And y'all have, think some, not all, but some of you all have mastered that tango, that dance on the track. Like, okay, it's her turn. I'm gonna fall back, I can rest a little bit. All right, my turn, pass the relay, right? Like y'all have mastered the run and we still trying to figure it out over here. And then on top of that, still trying to have conversations about our humanity. and on top of that, there are so many different things. And so when we do get together, now we're not. What's at the same. Niggas.

speaker-1: What's at the center? What's in between the conversation? NIGGA! Yay!

speaker-0: Niggas. we don't patriarchy to your point surface we we so surface level That when we do get together to have these important conversations We spend less time talking about what the real core issues are that we have with one another and more time talking about what men like and what men don't like

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: Listen to any conversation about or between trans women and cis women, whether it's all cis, all trans, or a mixture of both. And it always ends up being a 45 minute conversation about women.

speaker-1: Yeah, think that's why like it's one thing I'm just like damn I love y'all love my sisters like but why I gotta be fish ⁓

speaker-0: That was supposed to be community. And y'all done snatched it out of community and then gave it to the general public. And that's why it's problematic because some stuff is not for everybody. And I really feel like because in community, that's that's that's an accolade in community. get called like, bitch, ⁓ you and your fish tonight. Hope ⁓ for real. Like the girls. The girls get excited. Yeah, it's a thing like.

speaker-1: Hehehehehe I never knew.

speaker-0: When ballroom, if a girl comes down and you're, bitch, tuna, she's eating. That's a good thing. That's like, ⁓ my God. And even when we're referring to cis women, it's another way to say cis without saying cis. It's just like, ⁓ no girl, I'm talking about the fish. And it's also because fish is the aspiration. Fish is the thing that you're trying to get to. I'm talking about, it's our way to separate. Like, ⁓ no, I'm not talking about one of the girls. I'm talking about fish in this moment. And I understand that like fish might have been the worst like thing I guess to compare it to, but again, very much so like sis. It is, it's not meant to be a negative term. In fact, it is still, it's a positive identifier for trans women. If I walk out the door and one of my sisters said, oh, bitch is giving tuna. Oh girl, you and your fish tonight. Oh, then I'm ready. Okay. Oh, I'm eating this, look up.

speaker-1: I needed to hear this. identify.

speaker-0: And that's why I'm just like, sometimes I hate when things are introduced to general public without context. without knowing that, of course you thinking, because whenever we reference fish and women, especially cis women, we not talking about something positive. And so if you're gonna introduce that lingo, you have to introduce the context from which it comes.

speaker-1: Yeah, that just gave me context.

speaker-0: Yes.

speaker-1: But it's like you said, I think a lot of women immediately center when they hear that. Hear fish, they center men.

speaker-0: of what men say about fish and women. And not what the queer community is saying about fish and women and all of the things that X, and Z. Because I mean, it used to be, and I think in certain circles, think like older circles or elder circles, they say pussy, like, oh, but you ain't no pussy. Like, oh, that's pussy over there. You know, it's the same thing.

speaker-1: Okay, well, we could keep talking. But I am, I'm so grateful that you came and sat and talked with me. I admire you so much. I want you to know that you own your shit, bitch tuna. Okay. Ready?

speaker-0: It's all good. I'm gonna be real fish

speaker-1: ⁓ my goodness, it's so good having you. Thank you again. Anything you want to leave with the people.

speaker-0: run the race that's for you. Trying to run somebody else's race, do somebody else's thing, follow somebody else's journey is never going to work. When you run the one that's yours, I guarantee you no matter how slow or fast you get there, when you get there it's gonna be a lot more fulfilling and you'll have less people to explain things to when you're doing it for yourself and not for the naysayers. Yeah. We did it.