speaker-1: Hey y'all, welcome to the fourth episode of Churched, Faith and Spirituality for Everyday People. Today's episode, I'm Penelope French, by the way, y'all host, pronouns, they, he. ⁓ And today's episode is Don't Ask Me If I'm Religious. Don't Ask Me If I'm Religious. And we have our wonderful guest with us, speaker-0: Peace. speaker-1: Ocean Dark. speaker-0: Hi. speaker-1: And this episode is about integration. Not choosing one identity, not abandoning your past, but living in the complexity of who you are. So really focusing on spirituality that can involve gender that can be sacred, art that can be ritual, identity that can be fluid, and mystery that can be home. And so I want to. Welcome you, Camille. Thank you, I feel very welcome. Introduce yourself to the people. speaker-0: very welcome. Yes, so my name is Camille Ushundara. ⁓ My pronouns are they, them. I identify as gender fluid or just fluid. I am a artist, screenwriter, consultant. And for the past, I guess, I'm at a decade, but the years that I'm initiated are growing, and I feel like I keep repeating them. But yeah, I've been an Olareisha, or a priest of Shango, which is a... traditional Yoruba, Ifa religion. So yeah, I am an Orisha of Ifa and I have been for the past decade. So what that means is as a writer and artist, I integrate our relationship to spirituality, typically traditional African spirituality, but also indigenous American spirituality ⁓ and all the different routes that I can excavate into the fantasy, horror and sci-fi filmmaking and world building that I make. Yeah, free spy day, writer artist by night. speaker-1: Spiritual leader always. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's pretty awesome. It makes me just think about how many of us on the day-to-day basis are ⁓ being intentional about naming the ways that our beliefs and our practices show up in the things that we do. And I thought to be able to talk about it through the art form that you're so good at. Because what? No problem. ⁓ Let's dive in. ⁓ I think that one of the most radical things a person can do is refuse to be defined by a single identity. ⁓ Even for my own self. Though I have lived my life on this earth ⁓ as a cisgendered woman for majority of my life and being able to come to a place where I completely ⁓ acknowledge the way the world is always going to engage me as, but acknowledge my internal world ⁓ and be able to identify as genderqueer and be able to own that identity outwardly ⁓ has been so liberating even to my spiritual practices. ⁓ And so today we're gonna talk about all of these, spirituality, gender, art, and what it means to live in the fullness of that. I wanna talk to you first about, you told me you grew up Baptist as young, and so from Baptist to Ifa, what was your relationship to Christianity growing up? And then that pathway to Ifa, we'll start. speaker-0: Yeah, so it's interesting because like even as you were, you know, saying that I had grew up Baptist, which is the language I probably use as well. But I think about. Like, I'm not sure if there was ever a time where I was comfortably. openly, consensually Baptist. I was born into it. my household, I grew up with my mom and my sister, and then I would go to my dad's house. I was one of those weekend kids every other weekend. And my mom was really rooted in Christianity. Still, she was very liberal. And I feel like the number one spiritual energy that I felt in the home or something that was navigating the home, ⁓ driving the home was black militancy more than anything. She definitely identifies as a Christian and we can get into that later. ⁓ But my household was very liberal, was very art focused. It was really black art focused. And I think was pretty radical relationship to blackness being the center of identity. while I did. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-0: I was born into a Baptist house. I don't think that I ever received or kind of wore it as a badge of honor or like accepted it. I kind of feel like I was born in resistance to the Baptist church. but I am pretty familiar just because. I love storytelling, I love being a part of a cohort, and I love being a part of conversation. I was born yapping, so my relationship to Christianity and to the Baptist faith was always one of curiosity. I'm not quite sure in my childhood, I got to a space of, okay, this answers all my questions enough for me to commit, but I was always swirling through that, just for the first eight years of my life when I was in Atlanta. speaker-1: Yeah. Growing up, Yeah. And I love how you framed that though. Like it was there, but the center and focus of your household was being black. Yeah. And that was not the center of my focus. My center was being churched, being Baptist. ⁓ And my family ⁓ went to the North from Mississippi. So my mother was born in Weston, Mississippi, and ⁓ that flight to the North, assimilation was the gang for safety, was assimilation in the North. So my center was not Black first, it was faith first. And I think that's a struggle that we're seeing in society right now within the Black church and within just any context of even being queer, even being folks are like, missing the fact that we're Black first. that's, I love the way that you frame that. So what led to IFA? What was that journey then from the central of blackness? speaker-0: It's interesting because I think... ⁓ Coming to, so as I was in conversation with Christianity as a kid, I found myself immediately wanting to rebel from this notion that once you are born into Christianity, you have to stay there. feel like that, know, group in the South, I love the South, I love Atlanta, and so that was, and I actually grew up in Jonesboro, so. Outside Atlanta, not Atlanta, right? yeah, I love Clayton. And like, love that Waka Flocka reps Clayton. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: So we have somebody who's put on the map, ⁓ But being there, felt like the thing that you don't do is question other spiritualities that exist. And I think because my household was one that was all about black creativity and black exploration, black imagination, my mom did allow me to... get into other cultures. And so while she would not take me to other churches, and she was very specific about that, I was able to read about everything, and she encouraged me to read about the world. So I found myself... deeply engaged in Kometic and Egyptian spirituality. I love the stories of Greece and the Odyssey. I was into learning about Buddhism and learning about all, like, you know, those books that are for children that have, like, global faiths, I was the one who was like, okay, great, I'm just gonna time hop and be in every country and continent. Yeah! speaker-1: I sneaking. I was sneaking and doing it. They wasn't like me. I was like. speaker-0: understand. The fact that you have to sneak is crazy. Something about that I was already interested in, ⁓ but my mom did feed my interest in global culture, so that was one thing. But it's so funny because when I was going through those books, I never would find anything on African spirituality. I was a really big anime kid, and so anime... ⁓ Japanese animation and all of the fantastical worlds that it becomes an opening for us to experience really made me think, okay, well, there are these global faiths I'm seeing in these books that are ancient. people are telling me that everyone has some type of ancient tradition, so where are mine? And Egypt was the closest I got, but I still wasn't. I didn't have any access to the Book of the Dead at the time. didn't really quite have anyone to talk to about that as a living tradition. It always felt like that was memory of a past time. speaker-1: Dead time. speaker-0: Yeah, it does. And so it wasn't until I went to move to LA, which I moved around eight, I was still bi-coastal for most of my teenage life was going back and forth, spending most of my summers in Atlanta, but was kind of forced to be in LA. I felt like for work and for school, my mom opened up the opportunity to go to the West. So when I got to LA, I was going to a Agape International Spiritual Center, which Reverend Michael Beckwith is the leader of. And I was in the preteen center. And so they were really getting into the basic of esoteric belief, spirituality as in the law of attraction, energy can't be destroyed. I was getting into all of these foundational understanding of how energy was transferred and the way in which that showed up in everyday life. Science, yeah. And from there I... speaker-1: Spirit as science. speaker-0: I found like, was just awakened. I felt like Agape became my home. It was probably the first church that I wanted to go to. And I remember my mom was still taking us to a Christian church in LA. And my sister, who's 11 years older than me, was aged out. So she didn't have to do anything. I was still the one that was like, know, I'm waking up pretending to be sick. speaker-1: Come on, put your stuff on. speaker-0: anything I could, any excuse I could pull out of my hat I was doing and my mom did not, was not going for it. She was like, I know that you're rebelling, but that doesn't matter to me. You're still going with me to church because this is about your soul, all those things. So I would find my ways to rebel while in church. ⁓ It wasn't until I had a situation at church where, They were talking about suicide ⁓ and taking your own life. And I knew growing up that my grandfather, like that's how he transitioned. And I only figured that out because he had this really big onc medallion, very like 60s. And I used to love it. My mom used to always have it her jewelry box, but she never used to wear it. And so I used to always try to touch it or pick it up. My mom was like, you know, when you get older, maybe you can engage with this. Yeah, but she was like, you just really can't wear it yet. And I was like, oh, just want to be so flat when I wear it. And so she was like, I promise when you get older, I'll tell you. But she told me that he, my grandfather, Bo Roberson, yeah, yeah, Ibaiye. he had the onk on when he took his own life. And so she says that, you know, she was the one who was called to the scene. That was one of the pieces of evidence. So she was just like, energetically, I feel like it may be heavy. And I was only ever able to understand what energetic heaviness meant because I was in a space where every now and then we would go to agape, but we were still going to the Christian church consistently. And so we had a, there was a Sunday at church. where all of my rebellion tactics weren't working. So I had to find myself engaged in the preteen conversation at this Baptist church. And they were talking about suicide. And the teacher was a black woman. She said, well, if you take your life, you go to hell. And I just remember being... It wasn't even an immediate no, although I stand in that no now. I was just like, why? speaker-1: Like, fuck no. ⁓ speaker-0: I was like, what about taking your own life is a prerequisite for you going to hell, right? And she just didn't have an answer for me, but she was continuing to kind of spew like fear-based tactics, like it's bad and the Bible says and all of these things. And I said, well, my grandfather killed himself. So is he in hell? Can you give me a solid yes? And she's been, you know, spewing and she looks at me and she was like, you should pray about that. And I was like. speaker-1: Do you know for sure? speaker-0: ⁓ so after that, I went to my mom and I told her, was like, I'm never coming to this church again. It's illogical. I was like, there was no discourse. She shut down conversations. She had no sources. Mind you, my mom had created a black scholar household. So she was like, and I was like, you don't have any answers for me? No one can give me a reason why our lineage is in a space of suffering. we're... Going to a space that is preaching this and it's not giving us any type of aftercare or information about what to do next. So is my bloodline cursed? Like what do I do with that information? So I told my mom I'm not going and I was like, putting a putting an ultimatum out I was like I will kick I will scream I will make you late every Sunday and I will take the bus to Agave But I'm not coming back here and wasting my time because she wouldn't even engage me in conversation. I'm goes, okay She was like, fine, okay. And so there were Sundays where she would let me miss, and then eventually I found my way into Agape and I was there every Sunday. ⁓ I would skip forward a little bit because from being in Agape every Sunday, I felt really empowered. I was feeling more aligned. I learned about harmony and these spiritual values. And I fell in love with unconditional love as a concept. And then I remember there just being a time where I had gone from preteen to teen. And I was also preparing for, ⁓ I was like in the upper years of high school preparing for college. And I just was. hit with rage, like my relationship to blackness and to political activism and to social justice was kicking in. And now the unconditional love and the law of attraction and the spiritual nature of things not being destroyed meant nothing to me because I was aware that black people were being killed. What was happening? Right now. Yeah, I was, was, was kind of like Buddha. was waking up to the injustice and I was mad. And I was like, this tradition, speaker-1: what's happening. speaker-0: you know, like now they call it a new thought ancient wisdom. I appreciate that Michael. You know, that he circled it back up, This is new to who? New to who? But when we started talking about that, I found myself needing a spiritual system of defense. And I remember my, I remember being mad and talking to my sister who's old. Yeah. Like I remember talking to her and being like, Nia, I don't know where to put these emotions. And she said, yeah, like all the, the, speaker-1: so speaker-0: these quasi positivity works to a certain degree, she goes, there's a spiritual attack. Yeah, we're under spiritual attack. And to refute that attack, you have to have a system of defense that is specific to your cultural understanding and experience. And so that's what led me into exploring what would later lead me to Ifa. But those stops along the way. ⁓ were necessary for me to even have my eyes open to something like EFA. speaker-1: ⁓ That's so good. The spiritual system of defense. I love the way that you articulated that. ⁓ And I think for me, my engagement with Ifa had come from just learning and being around others who were using the system and practicing the system. ⁓ And I like to say I'm more of an ⁓ honoree of what it is. ⁓ rather than a devotee to it. If I was actually the place that affirmed for me that I could have the spiritual system that I wanted, that I would like to create and was a reflection of my inner world, lived experience and my ancestral ⁓ lineage as well. that seeing and knowing that this existed, that I didn't have to go and become a part of every spiritual system in the world and become an honoree or a devotee and initiated into every single one of them to have an understanding of the purpose of it and what it was meant for. ⁓ But for you, what did initiation mean to you personally ⁓ as you were going through it and what is it now since that you have gone through it and especially in relationship to your gender identity? Mm-hmm. speaker-0: Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, in alignment with this timeline we've kind of created, ⁓ was in, I was graduating from high school right when I was getting my elekes, which are the spiritual beads that mark someone's initiation from like a American Ifa, West African tradition. There's so many different branches of it, but elekes for the... temple and tradition that I'm a part of, which is the Karate tradition, ⁓ it's a part of an American West African practice. So you get your full elekkes as a form of initiation. And for me, I didn't know much about it. I just really knew it as African medicine. I was in a space where I was in school. School was boring to me. I was excelling like grade wise, but I had now been... speaker-1: I know. speaker-0: awoken to the indoctrination that this was all bullshit and that I was being taught white supremacist education. you know, I was just, I had such a little faith in the system. And I was just so angry. I found myself very lost. So I was just working to connect with people and I was partying a lot and I was trying to fill the gap. in what I wasn't receiving in the education system with just like other relationships and all of that was contributing to me kind of losing myself at the age of what, 17, 19, you know, like that's the perfect time to be like, woe is me, nothing matters, I'm sad, you know? And so I just knew that I was kind of becoming like a shell of myself and my mom's partner at the time. speaker-1: So young, yay. speaker-0: was going through her year of white. And I giggle because when you go through your y'all wo year as it's called, it's a super, super sensitive time. You know, it's like being rebirthed. And so I had the privilege and kind of confusion of living with somebody who was going through a process that I was actually about to go through, even aware of that. And I was like, why are you so moody? Why are you always wearing white? Why are you always telling me people can't come in the house and you have to cover your head? she just, she was so. She was strict and she was going through a cleansing process that I didn't understand. so, but it was so funny because as she was coming out of the cleansing process, she was like, you need your aleckes. Like you are all over the place. And I was like, what do you mean? And she was just like, you'll see, I guess maybe. But that was just her being like, everything got going over there. That's a journey ahead. You're spiraling. ⁓ And so I found myself pushing against it because I didn't know what it was. speaker-1: There's a journey ahead of you. speaker-0: And ⁓ I just was exploring throughout my everyday and spiritual omens started to really chase me, I will say. I'm weary of certain terminology because people demonize the tradition a lot, but I think it's important that we're aware that if you have a mission that you are to go on, no matter what you think about it, ⁓ yeah, it's gonna find you. It's gonna find you. And so I saw, kept seeing, at the time I knew the Arisha that were in line with me were Oshun, whose color is yellow, her number is five, their number is five, and Obatala, whose color is white and their number is eight. And so I kept seeing fives and eights. I kept seeing yellow and white. I would look around and there would be actual bouquets of white and yellow and clothing. And I thought that I was being surrounded by this spiritual whirlpool. And so I just finally sent a message on Facebook. to the woman who ran the temple that my mother's ex was initiated through. And I was like, hey, I think I want to join the temple. And she was like, where is this coming from? She's seen me like coming to her temple kicking and screaming because I was so opposed to religion. speaker-1: Anywhere. It didn't matter. The institution of that, I'm kicking and screaming, period. speaker-0: Yeah, I was punk in every spiritual space. you know, like they're singing traditional African songs. I'm like, I'm singing nothing. I'm not dancing. I don't want to be here. I want to go home. This is just like the Christian church. I want to leave. Like I didn't consent to be here. Like I was just shut off from everything. But when it started to find me, I messaged her and was like, I just feel like it's time and I'm getting the messages. And she's like, OK. So she accepted that for me. When I went through the initiation process, which is very, private for everyone so if you ever hear anybody like talking about it like you know whether you know you would question that out loud out loud yeah you should be like hey I don't know you know just like speaker-1: podcast mics and social media, be like, ⁓ we just telling everything. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, it's taboo to speak about ceremonies that you weren't And even if you were there, it's taboo to speak about them people who were not there, who are not central to the mat. So all I know is that when I went through the experience, I felt like I came home, went to sleep, and I felt like there was a vacuum that had connected to my skull and had sucked out the cloudiness. And I woke up actually mad because... speaker-1: or by speaker-0: I felt evidence of ritual I didn't understand. And I was like, what the fuck did y'all do to my head? What's going on? Like I was so confused, but that confusion had nothing to attach itself to. So it may have swirled a little bit, it just, left. Yeah. And I found myself discovering what faith and devotion meant through my goals being achieved, through my clarity of mind, ⁓ mixing with speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: the awakening of my consciousness in relationship to blackness, mixing with my view of spirituality that Agape had set forth, my mom had set forth, and it just became a part of me. It's almost like it fortified my spine. And that's how I became on the journey. I never looked back. I just continued to grow in the tradition. So I'm currently not a part of a temple. can talk about that later. I did leave my temple that I had been a part of for over a decade, and still like... speaker-1: I fortified my spine. speaker-0: Ifa is a lifelong relationship. The temple is such an integral, but it's really an auxiliary part of the journey. So yeah, Ifa is definitely my life in so many ways. yeah, so every day I'm like Mephedi Fumarisha. As it mixes with what I know in the world, it's still my anchor. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. And I think I'm getting emotional. Me too. I'm like what? this moment ⁓ because I'm hearing and experiencing a groundedness for you that has, like you said, fortified you in your steps. Toward whatever you're moving in. I know that for myself, but that came through Christianity. in a different way through the lens that I experienced it being connected back to a small town in Mississippi. my clarity coming from their lessons that I was taught, that I hold onto that now that I am in this space in my life as a spiritualist, a womanist that engages the world from a universal perspective, that those same principles come through and I feel grounded in my reality, in that connection to those things. What surprised you most about your ⁓ transition and about the transition from IFA, I mean, from being Christian to New Thought to IFA, what surprised you most about that transition? And then how did that connect to your identity ⁓ as you also transitioned in your gender identity? speaker-0: Just similar to how you speak about that gorgeous divinity and that relationship building. ⁓ My relationship to Ifa, one, it's funny that the topic of this is don't ask me if I'm religious, right? Because I think that people often associate Ifa with a spirituality, unless with a religion. I actually prefer people to see it as a religion, just because when I was going through my initiation, some of the people who I connect to the most were folks who were diametrically opposed to me. So there was a girl at my college who, used to butt heads all the time just because, you know, she was very conventional, very Christian. I liked her, but she like kind of hated everybody. she was just like, and I kind of like people who try to act like they don't like me. I'm like, oh, I know I'm just sitting next to you. I'm just like so affirmative. um, When I went through my initiation, you have to wear all white and it's a very visible process, head scarf, all the things. ⁓ And so I remember me connecting to her because I was like, people think you're crazy because you're religious, right? Because you love Jesus. Like you preach Jesus every day, I hear it. And she was like, yeah, people think I'm crazy. I was like, me too. I was like, we serve different like pathways, but I acknowledge Jesus. And I was only able to... come into a space of balance with Christianity after I transitioned into Ifa because I had found a pathway to myself that felt very viable and like the ultra light beam was on. And so I respected people who I see them get up and they have this spiritual experience and they have this coding over them. And I go, it's a similar coding, Like Tinkerbell glow, know, like likes these likes. speaker-1: The covering that they call it. speaker-0: Yeah, and we have that as well and that awareness of like anointing. So my relationship to all that I was paying attention to when I was, you know, kind of being like, proselyzed or their goal was to proselyze me as a Christian. I was like, thank you for this information. I'll take it to heart. I'm just going to implement it in a way that makes sense to me. speaker-1: And that integration piece around ⁓ you being, you holding inside of you this ⁓ ability to say I'm going to name, take these experiences for myself. Your experience is something that one, I am impressed by, inspired by, but also seeing that a lot of us in your aging to be able to make those choices, that's not the same experiences that a lot of people in the church, black church specifically have. They succumb to the oppression of this is the way, this is how you have to use it. There's only one way. They succumb to that, but to be able to see the integration of what you were given and what they were trying to do in Christianity. to where you were, I think a lot of people miss that. Like that for me is the contention or the point of where I think spiritual ownership is the most important. is, there are different things that we're all experiencing through our own ⁓ experiences of faith and spirituality that intersect. The intersectionality of faith and spirituality that allows us to connect with folks. believe something completely different from us, but that there is a language that exists that we have access to, to understand. ⁓ And taking away some of that fear, because I remember the first time I started to explore African spiritual traditions, Hoodoo, which was directly the one connected close to me because of being Baptist. But then to Ifa, being the fear. the fear of this is the devil, this is what people told me not to look at, it's demonized, it's all of these different things, and it being scary as shit to me, but at the same time, me being like, they've always made shit scary to me that I needed to know. In this society I exist in, where the fear is, there's something there that I need to know that's being hidden from me, but the pathway that I was able to connect. to my ancestral traditions through this understanding that, again, that there are things that we're all experiencing that are a conglomerate, like each one being a conglomerate on top of, on top of, on top of, because a reminder that I had to consistently give myself was as both Native American, because I have part of my bloodline is Native to American soil, ⁓ but also being African descent, the pieces of this reality that we had to learn Christianity through what we knew. Meaning my bloodline knows what it knows now in Christianity through the aspects and pathways of indigenous spiritual practices and African indigenous spiritual practices. And finding my ability to connect back to it from. So it's just really cool that you are young and you had this this moxie this Unks to be like Hell yeah, no, thank you. But I'm gonna take that piece and I'm gonna walk forward. I'm gonna walk on speaker-0: I mean, it started with like, it was definitely a fuck you, but the fuck you transitioned into like forgiveness. I forgive you. And I forgive myself and I forgive anyone who tried to push anything on me thinking that it was medicine. Because if you see someone who think is sick, you're gonna push medicine on them. But it's like, it's the subtle pause to realize like, maybe this process they're going through is not for me to intervene in. Maybe they're already being intervened on right now. Maybe the processes that are working are unseen. so I understand. And I think that the more... speaker-1: on. I lost a lot of friends because I was pushing the medicine. speaker-0: One thing, you talked about the intersection of gender, spirituality, and consciousness, and for me it was very much like coming into UCLA, coming into a space where I was doing undergraduate research, I'm already looking at black speculative thought alongside studying gender and going through a initiation as a person who was assigned female at birth, right? I always felt very queer and kind of was toggling through different terms. So the number one thing that I was... taking in amid all this while I was learning about intersectionality was plurality. Was that different things could exist at the exact same time and all be true. And this idea of researching ⁓ organizing from black power spaces between the 60s to the 80s reminded me that spiritual warfare and the disagreeance. of our spirituality not lining up with our artistic movements, not lining up with our political movements, is a part of what led the war on black power to to be very, very substantial and successful in many ways. And so for me, I said to myself, I will not be proselytized or convinced that this person is bad or even that Jesus or Yeshua or any of these spaces are untrue because if a black person, if it gets them through and it gets them free, I'm gonna listen to it. ⁓ And that's where my politics continue to lie. So I always speak on behalf of transness and plurality and queerness and freedom and fluidity. because those on a political, spiritual, and personal level are truly what I believe in. speaker-1: That seriously does so good. ⁓ If y'all are in Atlanta, check out Fluid Fest this year. Coming up 2026 is gonna be great. ⁓ But grounded in what you just said that all things are true. All things can be true at the same time. speaker-0: I, resistance exists not always well, but like resistance against the self, just fighting the self, like it creates sickness. And I feel like if we're seeing each other as siblings, there should be minimal inner resistance. There's enough outer things to. speaker-1: to fight against. yeah. ⁓ okay, so how do you navigate spiritual spaces that struggle with gender diversity? speaker-0: Yeah, mean, technically a huge part of the reason why I am not in a temple actively is because of the lack of gender diversity. So for folks who aren't aware, one thing that Christianity and African traditional religions have in common is that they've both been infiltrated by patriarchy. and infiltrated by white supremacy. ⁓ And with that colonial intervention comes the imposition of the binary. It's a prison. The binary is a prison that everyone has a key to, but everyone seems to be in. it's something that is difficult. So folks who are, whether they're Isheishe or they are Lukumi, Kodomblé, Chang'eul, Avudun, there is a historical basis speaker-1: Thank speaker-0: for feminine power, for queer, trans, and fluid power, for them to be esthuled in positions of leadership. Still, in the modern practice of all these traditions, whether they're syncretized with Catholicism, like Santeria or not, there is this ⁓ patriarchal thread that consistently puts men in power and questions whether folks who are assigned female at birth or identify as women should have... medicine to hold or should have titles. So for me, on top of just like being shaped this way and being assigned female at birth, someone who identifies as someone who's fluid, there's another level of questioning and ⁓ of care that I require of the spaces that I commit myself to where I go, you have to be willing to not assume. You have to be willing to ask how I identify. And if you're not in that space, you have to be willing to listen when I tell you. What it is. Yeah, I don't align or do align with this. And so for me, The reason why I use the term Olareesha is that I was always really explorative while involved in Ifa and the temple that raised me, El-Elay El-Re, which I will always uplift. is one that has always been pretty gender inclusive and is led by a lot of queer women. I would say that the one thing that is building in all temples is what does it mean to identify with gender fluidity, while also sometimes being involved in spiritual spaces that are so used to the gender binary that it's actually built into the system of healing. So then where do you put people sometimes when you've been trained to deal with them on a certain level based on their biology, but it's not all determined by that. And that just becomes a question for the practitioner, for the people involved, for access. ⁓ For me, I use the term Olareisha because I learned that typically someone who is crowned, AKA is a priest of the tradition, is either a Ia, right, or Ia Nifa, or a Baba, or Baba Lau, right? There's different forms of those words as well. You have Awo, and so many other terms that are used by people who are stu-led, but Olareisha is one that is open to everybody after they initiate. So once you've been crowned for at least a year, right, you go through your initiations, You are a priest of whatever deity or energy that your work helps to protect and exude in the world You were technically Olareisha. However, people typically only use that as a transitionary term. I kind of like that's a transitionary term Always in transition and I like that it's a gender fluid word ⁓ Entitled by nature. So I just use Olareisha as my way to identify speaker-1: I'm gonna stay. Yeah, and I also see in community that you create third spaces in the things that you offer that support the fact of what do you do? How do you handle this lack of ⁓ gender inclusiveness? And I see you do that in your work by creating spaces that hold that with also a spiritual intention to them, which brings me to your art, which brings me to, you just had your first solo art show. You did. Which is amazing, shout out to you. speaker-0: Thank you. Susan Mears ⁓ speaker-1: ⁓ And I want to talk to you about ⁓ what drew you to the genre and how you show your spirituality or how does spirituality show up in the art and do you see your art as ritual? speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I definitely do. ⁓ So there are different terms that are used in Ifat to determine art as medicine or the integration of spiritually resonant materials. For example, people are used to shea butter and irosun. Or if you're into santeria, cascaria, which is the white powder. People are used to eggshells and certain things. coconuts, right? These are all like forms of material ritual healing and they're all forms of medicine and so we're also taught that the actual scripture itself and the work that's created can be embedded. with those medicines, yeah. And even the spoken word, intention, prayer, laying hands, all of that comes from a tradition of transferring that energy. So a couple ways that I work as a priest is that I don't typically, I'm not, even when I got my readings that determined that I would be a priest, they were always like, my E would always be like, mm, I'd be like, we know what's the face. And she goes, well, you are a career priest and you will... in your lifetime dedicate yourself to this work, it's just not typical. Yeah, she was like, it's very non-conventional. It doesn't shift this like a facety or facelessness, right? But it does shift the way it's gonna look. And so like I love Yala Van Zandt, for example. I feel like she's one of the most... speaker-1: Yeah, tradition. speaker-0: ⁓ hyper-visible, EFA priest that also is able to integrate her work as a life coach. And even her name is her title. So the fact that she's been able to brand in that way I think is fantastic. For me, my work as a film consultant, a screenwriter, and a visual artist is how my relationship to storytelling and spirit shows up. There's not one written project that I've involved myself in that doesn't deal with African spirituality or African consciousness in relationship to ritual magic or ancestry or how ancestry is inherently magical. And so I have, like I said, it is the spine with through which I do all things. This collection, Monsters and Mirrors, kind of plays with the idea of monstrosity because from a ⁓ non-human supremacist lens, I believe that our gods don't speaker-1: inherently. speaker-0: take the form of humans. think that humanity is one incarnation that they took, right? Like for example, Christ consciousness found its way into Yeshua, into Jesus' body, but it's not bound to Jesus' body. If so, there would be no Christianity. He can't touch everybody if he's just a body who has passed, right? And then walk. speaker-1: Exactly. That's the Holy Spirit, initial, that third piece of the, that somehow left out Asherah. Yeah, yeah, feel that. speaker-0: You know, so the question becomes how can I, how many different ways can we engage with spirit if it expands beyond the body? And so my relationship to monstrosity into the creatures or entities or powers as I call them that I paint is me drawing light to the fact that there are unseen bodies and entities that are sometimes called monsters or sometimes aligned with demons that are not that. speaker-1: It just exists. speaker-0: They exist and because they don't take always a human form They are connoted with evil evil when I think that that's once again like the things that we fear the things we should walk towards so my vibrant monsters are ones that invite people to find a balance with what is always in relationship with them that they may be Kind of tricked out of engaging. Yeah. Yeah That's my word speaker-1: Ooh, that's some deep work right there to be a reflection of that, that we are constantly engaging pieces of ourselves that we may have ⁓ condemned our own self as something within ourselves, causing us to condemn ourselves to a place of stagnation, to the place of ⁓ not expanding. And ⁓ I love that you told the story about reading in the cards that, this is supposed to be the path, but the path is not gonna look that way. I think that so many people who have been churched or otherwise, ⁓ it's been hard for people to locate themselves because there's a picture of the way that they're supposed to show up in society. If they can't show up that way, then what? And that was a tension and struggle that I had to move through myself personally. but to get to a place where I have the full understanding, being a theologian, an ethicist, and a licensed minister, but at the same time, the way that shows up in my community as a cultural community organizer, as a revolutionary soul artist, that wherever I am, I'm answering the... personal legend or the journey or the call and encouraging folks to stand up in what they are drawn to the most, right? So music for me as a kid, it was, yes, church, yes, you're anointed, you're seven years old, you got the Holy Spirit, all of these things, but music was always, singing was always this thing for me. And... You can only do singing if you decide to sing gospel music or, you know, there were so many ways in which I was told I had to be limited in the expression of my anointing. And then getting to the point where once I made the choice, like, yeah, I can't be a part, I've always had questions about how much this system works, but I'm very clear that I cannot be a part of contributing. to how it is impacting my community. I cannot. Consciously, I know that this is not true in a sense of like, if we're talking historical, the historical pieces behind Christianity, that for me, I'm like, I can't hold this in the same way. Then where does my anointing spill out of or go next or go to? And music. was the thing that I have always since a kid, I'm gonna be a performer, I'm going to share and emote and give in this type of a way. I found there was music was right there waiting for me to express my anointing through. And so I feel like it's so important that people who were raised up in something that was their passion, like there was a passion attached to. something they do to revisit those places as a way to let their light shine, to revisit those places as a way to complete the call, to move in the journey. And for myself now, that looks like, you know, for me, in cultural community organizing still, but it's answering the questions of ⁓ sex and sexuality, gender and gender identity, and... ⁓ finding ways to preach practically, like in real life. Like we're gonna do something that teaches you that. having, when I started to have the retreats in Jamaica with the Harmony House, I had so many people are like, what are you doing? Y'all are in the trees and the bushes and the, no, is ⁓ eco-spirituality. This is the ways in which we're going to learn just how much we're connected to the things and being able to again, shine my light through. those apparatuses, so I just think, like, one, you're cool as fuck. That's one, but that your ⁓ light in the medicine that you're putting into the things that you're doing, I've been personally impacted by it, and so ⁓ I wanna thank you for that, for real. speaker-0: Yeah, and you said something about two things. One, answering the call, and I feel like in some ways, spirituality and coming into all the different stops along the way prior to IFA prepared me to be able to really engage art as my oracle. ⁓ IFA prepared me for art, art prepared me for IFA, and they all are preparing me to complete my earthly mission here. And I have an ancestor, Jewel, who recently just and join the Ancestral Realm. And she is the owner and founder of the Catch One in LA and the Village Health Center and just e-bite her to her because when she was still here, she laid hands on me to help me work. when she passed, or before she passed, she said, I want to leave this place, I want to leave this earth empty. All of my gifts, giving them out and having them be into the world, returning that to the earth. And so when you talk about finding inspiration in our art with all things around us, Biomimicry is really big in Ifa and traditional African religions. Like you said, we're outside. We're in the earth. Also too, we see ourselves in nature and in all of the different cosmological processes that occur. And so for me and the art that I make, it's about us remembering that contract so that we can honor all things as God, but also too, I have a contract with the spirits and powers that visit me that are in my life that I acknowledge them through my art. I understand them deeply and I share ⁓ and that's the way that we find balance. So finding a way to use your art form to actually integrate spiritual knowledge, like that's what it's there for. You know, so it's not. speaker-1: is spiritual. It is spiritual. speaker-0: Yeah, and it's also like how you live, know? like the, yeah, how you practice. yeah, the practice is the integration, is also that outward healing and giving it to everyone. speaker-1: practice Okay, because I'm like, where do I go? How do you stay grounded when you don't have answers? what is, how would you name what spiritual ownership has been to you and for you? speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ Well, my relationship to my gender identity has been one that has been a journey of me reclaiming ownership of my body. remember like when I got, have a face tattoo when I got, which is of a lightning bolt, is ⁓ honoring Shango. I spoke about ⁓ Oshun and Obatala being the Orisha that were assigned to me or aligned with me, my journey very deeply when I first came in. Some people say head and feet Orisha, some say parent Orisha or like the Orishas that are guiding your journey here. When I got initiated, Sean Goh, who is the Orisha of victory, lightning, the king, red, the number six, which is why I'm K6 male, came into my life and I remember just going through a corporate journey of getting into film and getting into the understanding of how commodified my personal image was and how commodified the blackness, queerness, anything with sauce, right? Becomes a product. Yeah, I was coming into working. of that. So me getting my face tattooed was me reclaiming my face. Like it's mine. It doesn't have to adhere to the standards of XYZ. I'm going to consistently shed those layers. A face tattoo was a helping of a shed for me. When I got top surgery and like reclaimed my body and like affirm my flat chest was a way of me reconnecting to my fluidity. You don't have to, you can be non-operative as a trans person and be just as organic in your truth, right? For me, my physical transition and shedding that layer again felt like my my work as an artist, got a chance to consistently shape my body, shape my practice, shaping my body as a form of practice. And so that's about ownership as an artist. then moving from a space of working as a producer to working as a cultural consultant and a screenwriter and working on my own pieces and my own paintings that were just by and credited to me was a form of ownership, right? Going from producing other people's stories to being rooted in my own, you know? Those were all artistic dreams. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: journeys of becoming a professional and also to saying, what I have to say and what I'm saying is enough for me to put my name on it alone, I will develop it in community and it's mine. It's my vision, right? Because the vision is always integrated. But I think when it comes down to understanding how... art making has been a form of me staying grounded, I'm thankful that, you know, I'm grounded when I'm grounded and I fly a lot. speaker-1: Boy, I be in the clouds. speaker-0: Actually, I let myself lie and once I have my exploration or my spirals or my journeys, my ragers, the art weighs me back down long enough for me to make a piece, write a poem, write a story, and I get to analyze my journey and that's how I stay grounded. But I repeatedly get ungrounded. speaker-1: and fly again. speaker-0: Yeah, like to float, but art keeps me grounded in my relationship to actually earth as a practice and with my body, with sexuality, with sensuality keeps me in this body, which I am so thankful to be in, you know? But after top surgery, I was a lot more thankful to be in this body. Prior to top surgery, I was okay with floating a little too long. think that, you know, being able to be in a physical form that aligns and makes me feel comfortable all the time, found And I refound home in my body through getting top surgery, I always uplift gender-affirming care, because that keeps me grounded. speaker-1: Yeah, yes, and should. ⁓ Ooh, this has been so sweet. This has been so good. And I think one of the things that stands out for me in this conversation was through all of the transitions that ⁓ I have had personally getting around people and maintaining relationships that reflect and honor my identity now. ⁓ And how that is also connected to me staying grounded and ⁓ how important community in Agape is important to that and being intentional about it. I used to be around people because I felt like I had to be. I used to be okay with not being engaged ⁓ with, you know, with in alignment with my worth, in alignment with how I saw myself because when you are from, again, ⁓ have ancestry in slavery in this country, being around who you can be around, and because you have to be around them, is a big part of my upbringing. And being from, I'm from a small town in Michigan, where my family moved to Michigan, but, The lack of asking questions, comprehension, illiteracy in the black church was one of the most illiterate contexts that we have. Because when you're under duress and you're under stress, yeah, we're learning how to read, but comprehension is a part of reading. And we continue on these traditions through the lack of comprehension, through the lack of... being exposed to things through the lack of being around people and we just accept and we make our identity from that. And my revolution to myself was I'm gonna fight back for all of those things but I'm gonna affirm it and feel grounded in not only just me naming my practice, my spiritual practice and how I identify but also putting myself and saying yes and being in community with a reflection. folks who reflect that. That doesn't mean I can't be around people who don't understand, but my choice ⁓ of honoring myself in that way and I'm glad to be in community with you, Camille. Do you have anything you want to leave with the folks as we end this? speaker-0: I appreciate that. do. Yeah, mean, to what you just said, I thought was beautiful and I really align with is, know, fluidity is a lens through which divinity speaker-1: Hey. speaker-0: can be anything, right? And it doesn't mean that things that are harmful become divine. No, divinity is a feeling and fluidity is an awareness that something is sacred to everyone. there's a way through, there's a way that our traditions, like our traditions have gone through so many tumbling cycles before they've come to us. Every tradition that we have been a part of and that we acknowledge is in transition. Right now yeah, and is still reeling from a transition that people may not understand because it takes you have to be in a future space to even be able to look back and go ⁓ this this tradition has gone through this many changes I think Christianity if I all ancestral faiths are ones that really have to exist in a indigenous and Afro future space speaker-1: Agreed. speaker-0: Yeah, one where it's like we know that this tradition inherently is gonna change. So we have to acknowledge that we are a part of an active shift that's happening, means, you can name it. People are gonna disagree. We're gonna have different experiences, but also it being real to someone else is always a possibility. And so I like to lead with this. speaker-1: And we have to name it. speaker-0: with a space of inclusion and fluidity is a form of life is something that allows me to not only stay fluid in my body, stay stretching and healthy and stay happy, but it allows me to always know that there's possibility for me to change, for my mind to change and I allow everything around me to be an agent. Yeah, so if you come into my life and this conversation that I thought I'd never have radicalizes me, I am in my practice. speaker-1: transformation. I'm gonna take it. speaker-0: with that. So I love allowing myself to be changed and I always want to encourage people to allow themselves to shift and grow just because that's it means you're still alive. speaker-1: It means you're living. If stop growing, you're dead. Thank you. I appreciate you so much. ⁓ That's what this is about. If anybody listening to this podcast is in a form of transition, that you are no longer believing what you used to believe, you don't know what you believe right now, or you believe a little something of everything. Just know that you're... Faith and spirituality can be practical. It can change, it can grow, and there more people having that experience. Appreciate y'all. Till next time. speaker-0: Yay! Peace.