jeremy: you. Hi, this is Jeremy Vine and I'm with Mark Williams Thomas.

Mark: Welcome back to 30 Minute Crime and today we're gonna talk about what Jeremy?

jeremy: We're talking about the murder of Joanna Yates or Joanne Yates in twenty ten, a case that became famous, notorious for reasons that were somewhat adjacent to the crime itself. But we will discuss the crime because the one thing that happened here was that The police got distracted by something that was led them away from the actual murderer. To start on the facts of the crime, it's 2010. Joanne Yates is 25 years old. She's a trainee landscape architect. She's got a boyfriend. They live together in Clifton in Bristol. She goes out for the evening. He's away somewhere. She says goodbye to her friends. She appears to arrive back in her flat and then just disappears. And she leaves things in her flat, which immediately make the police anxious, notably her mobile phone and her keys. And there is just no sign of her. So in 2010, December 2010, that's the scene. A woman has arrived, apparently arrived back at home and simply gone missing. And of course, in that situation, Mark, as a former police officer, you'll know you're in an immediate state of alert.

Mark: Absolutely. And in fact, I was there. I covered this story right from the day one. So as soon as it went into the media, I was down there for ATN and covered it. And took it all the way up, really, until after the Joanna's body was found and in the arrest that subsequently took place afterwards. But Let's set the scene in terms of Bristol. So Bristol is a huge university of university city and split up through campuses and some very you know expensive, quite salubrious areas, and Clifton is one of those. Whilst they were living in a house that was separated into separate rooms, bed sits, the area was a very, very nice area, a very salubrious area. And for her to suddenly disappear in the manner that she did. And she just suddenly vanished and the police were really concerned, but they went and did what I thought at the time was Was really concerning because what they actually came out and said, and it kind of reminded me back in terms of the 1980s, is that they gave a warning to people around there and said, please don't travel alone, particularly young females, don't travel alone because we haven't caught the person. And that was quite a strange thing to say. Because actually, what you're I always have a problem with that because you're kind of putting the responsibility onto the victim rather than acknowledging and saying, actually, you know what, this is a problem of a of a community or this is a problem of an offender.

jeremy: was gonna say that there to just to interrupt, I I the the police immediately came to the conclusion that she knew the person who'd attacked her. If she'd come into her flat and hi he had then taken her from her flat without her phone and keys, and he hadn't forced entry, surely they're thinking this is this is something that's been done to her by someone she trusts.

Mark: Yeah, I mean it when you look back on it in hindsight, you go, hang on a minute, how come you didn't catch the offender? When all of those signs are telling you, whoever has abducted and gone on and murdered Joanna must have had access and opportunity to her, and access and opportunity to her within her own property. It's not someone that's forced entry. So whoever is in that house. Is either an offender or she's let the offender into the house. Pretty small number of people that could apply to.

jeremy: Well, okay, so we're we'll get in due course to the person who did it, who managed to, as is always the phrase, hide in plain sight. But before we get to them, we need to look at what the police did next.

Mark: So she goes missing, massive police investigation, but it's picked up by the media. It's one of those cases that attracted huge media attention. It was approaching Christmas. spirits were high amongst people, and it just suddenly hit the headlines. Sometimes we can't explain why these cases do, but this did. Your intelligent young lady who's just literally vanished, nice area. bordering it well heading towards Christmas, nice festive time, and it hit the headlines. Every single newspaper was covering it. It was top story in the nationals on the news and I was down there covering for ITN and everyone was down there. All the broadcasters were down there and I remember Being there in the first 24 hours and thinking, do you know what? This has to have a connection of somebody living in the close proximity, someone that she's met, someone she's communicated with, or somebody living, you know, next door or or in the same road. And of course, that then caused the police. And the media to start to kind of like think, well, who could that possibly be? And what you have is you have a police investigation, and when the media are involved, you also kind of have a media investigation that runs alongside because investigative journalists, reporters are always looking to try and find that story that puts them ahead of their competitors. Avon the Somerset police at the time were very strange because I Unlike lots of police forces that I've worked with and work with, is their media approach was to say very little. And actually, so much so that their media, chat their media channels, i.e., who we as journalists phone up and tell them we're gonna run a story saying this. We're gonna, you know, could you tell us about this? Is it gonna be a press conference? We've heard this. They shut their phones at five o'clock. So post five o'clock. You couldn't actually get hold of a press officer if you Now we're doing the 10 o'clock news. We're doing the 6 o'clock news and the 10 o'clock news, and therefore we have very often information right up to the deadline where we need to check it out with the police. They weren't answering their phone. And it became a really kind of an issue across the media where the press office just literally closed down. Now, the chief constable has changed at since that time at Avon and Somerset, but he took an umbrance to the to the press. He didn't like the press. There'd been a story that had been done about his police. force that he was angry about and as a result of that his kind of memo to the press office was don't engage with the press, they're not helpful, we don't want to work with them. Very unhelpful at the time of a major investigation.

jeremy: We we see, yeah, I was gonna say we s we see when you do that to the press, they will go off on their own agenda. And and you know, we we're coming to this this figure who then pops up in just a moment who was gotta be the the most unlucky man in in Britain in that year to be suddenly central to this investigation. But this is rather like what happened with Madeline McCann. Now, Madeline McCann, the again, the police were not very helpful to the hordes of press that descended on Portugal. And the press, who were burnt by the Serm case, because the murderer was giving them interviews and they didn't realize Ian Huntley was the murderer, decided to simply find the suspect themselves. And in the case of the Madeline McCann case, they found a guy called Robert Murat. Who, by the way, had a glass eye, so he looked suspicious. And these stories about Robert Murat went absolutely crazy. I mean, th th one of them said when he was at school, he used to take out his eye and bounce it on the tarmac in the playground to terrify the other kids. Actually, he didn't have a glass eye till he was in his twenties. Now we have here a Robert Murat figure, and that Robert Murat figure is Christopher Jeffries. So when did you first hear that name, Mark?

Mark: Well, Christopher Jeffries was there. We'd see him walking into the house, into his house. And and so when we were by obviously Joanny Yates' property as close as we could get to it, they because the the road wasn't sealed, so the property was sealed, but the road wasn't sealed because there was houses and obviously allowing cars and pedestrians to go by. We'd see him. He'd walk in, he'd walk out, and he suddenly, I think it was in a couple of days afterwards, or he became this This focus. And of course the police didn't provide any kind of clarity around that. And they were of course they weren't going to. If he was a suspect for them, they weren't going to tell the press. And the press kind of latched onto this guy. He was, I suppose, if you're wanting to stereotype him, you'd say he was probably a science teacher at a public school. He kind of had that kind of image about him, and he suddenly became the focus. And what happens, and this is what happens, is that one media outlet will say something about it, and then it becomes Chinese whispers, and another media outlet wants to beat the other media outlet that said something to begin it. So they go and find something else. And before you know it, you've got this cascade.

jeremy: Yep.

Mark: Effect of a man who is entirely innocent who becomes the front focal point of this murder investigation. And it was shocking to see. And there was a number of newspapers who were printing some incredible headlines in respect to this person. I mean, it goes forward in so much as the same people that represented Murat. represented Christopher Jeffreys when he subsequently took them to court.

jeremy: That's right. They became the two Murat and Jeffries became allies in a f a justified fr fight against the press deciding to solve crimes themselves. I mean, so with Jeffries, the connection to the killing was this. He my understanding is he owned the block of flats or he owned that group of flats. He was also renting one of the flats, or not renting, he was living in one himself, renting one out to Joanna. So and the other thing that happened, and I mean why this is the equivalent of what you could call the glass eye.

Mark: Yeah.

jeremy: in the case is that he had been, I think, an English teacher in a private school, and there was a picture of him in a school photo with mauve hair. He dyed his hair purple at some point. Now, so glass eye, purple hair, they've got to be the killer. And I remember this just you know, because it drives hatred towards the person as well. So I'm thinking, what an absolute bastard that guy is. You I'm I'm thinking this is looking at these stories, you know, because I'm being fed this stuff and it looks yeah, of course it's him.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah.

jeremy: And and at w at what point did it become clear it actually wasn't him, Mark?

Mark: Well I think the position was clarified by the the police in in so much as saying, you know, he's not a suspect in any way at all. You know, we had spoken to him, but he wasn't a suspect. And the the I mean he was obviously maintaining his well, you're all about that. I'm absolutely not. But he was still, he never really got out of the frame until they subsequently got the offender. You know, he was still in the frame. The police had put him up to this, sorry, the press had put him up to this position as being this potential offender. And it wasn't until they

jeremy: Yeah.

Mark: subsequently obviously arrested the killer. But this was, as is many cases, and particularly around that time, you can you can talk about, you can talk about Madam McCann, you can talk about the Soham, you can talk about this case. These were massive headlines, you know, Sarah Payne. Some of those cases just become you know infamous to us, don't they? We know about them because they just take over the headlines. This case was taken over the headlines, and I was up there, you know, was up there every day covering the case, and it was clear that the police were struggling. They had no idea, they had absolutely no idea who was responsible. In their position, they had now eliminated the other two occupants of the properties.

jeremy: Mm.

Mark: the f the eventual suspect, Tarbu, eventually ruled out yeah. eventually ruled out the key

jeremy: Vincent Tarback, yeah. Yeah. Well also they they had to rule out the boyfriend. We should say the boyfriend, you know, I think their suspicions would immediately initially be on the boyfriend, understandably. He was somewhere else at the time. We didn't have all the same phone tracking, so they would have taken a little while to establish that. They did also bring in Christopher Jeffries for questioning, as you've mentioned. So in that sense, they fed the media interest in him. And maybe th th there's an argument that says they brought him in for questioning because the the paper started printing all these pictures of him with his hair dyed purple. So you've got a perfect storm here. And I'm I'm you know, in terms of when the media get involved in a case, I mentioned Murat. The other example was relatively recent, the case of Nicola Bully, which you'll be all over. And there's a very, very sad story of a a woman who lost her life. We have to presume, I think, at this stage that she took her own life or lost it by accident. It's not it's not really clear, but she fell into a stream and drowned, and she had a lot of life pressure and so on. But

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Mm.

jeremy: You know, the the the we got this this whole new thing now of internet sleuthing where people are trying to solve the crime from space, quite literally, to the point where somebody who's near where poor Nicola Bully went missing, it they they live they live nearby, and there's suddenly somebody in their living room with a clipboard saying, I've arrived to ask some you some questions about Nicola Bully, and it's an internet sleuth who's turned up in the town.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone's got a mobile phone now, haven't they? I mean, I if you look at Vincent Tabak, who obviously was the killer, the and Christopher Jeffries, you know, who was the landlord and this completely innocent person who was vilified within the press, that the position was, of course, is that and we'll never know the answer to this, but I firmly believe that the reason that the police interviewed him was because of the position of the press. The press kind of like put him up as this key suspect. I think that led to him being interviewed. They'd also interviewed Interviewed Tabak and they'd ruled Tabak out, and subsequently he left the country and wasn't in the country when, of course, the this main element was kind of being investigated. So he was kind of out of the frame. As you say, they interviewed the boyfriend and they ruled the boyfriend out, and they were able to rule the boyfriend out of his movements, etc. But They were they were struggling. The police were clearly struggling. There was huge pressure being applied upon them from the media and the public. And when you're at the centre of a major investigation like that as a senior investigating officer, you not only have the pressures of the external element of the press and the public, you also have internal pressure. You have your chief constable saying to you, What are you doing about this? You will most probably, if it's a high-profile case, even have the Home Secretary who's probably contacted the police, the chief, the chief constable and said, Well What are you doing? Can you just give me a briefing? You know, home secretaries are not meant to interfere with what's going on, but they do. You've got the police and crime commissioner. They would also have been saying what's going on. You know, so you when you look at all of these aspects, in fact, at the time I don't think there was a police and crime commissioner, I think it was before that came in. But when you look at all of those elements, it's it is a cauldron. And they've got to get an answer. And they were struggling. And they were struggling until such time as they had this sudden breakthrough. Which was Christmas Day and I can tell you, I was at home having Christmas Day and I got a phone call. And that phone call was from I think it was ITN or somebody saying they found a body because the police had put a press release out, obviously, to the media. And I remember phoning up the press office and say the police press office and saying, you know, can you what what what can you give me the details? What's happened? And basically she'd been found on a fence, sorry, on a on a there was a brick wall, and she was just literally the other side of that brick wall. Now I went down there, I think I went down there on Boxing Day and we did a report on it, and I Went to the scene, and what struck me when I went to the scene was that it it clearly hadn't been properly searched, it hadn't been properly preserved. And what we did know is that the from the post-mortem is that she had some marks on her back, and therefore whoever had lifted her up was most probably going to be on their own. Now I said that very clearly because what you she was quite she wasn't a big lady, so she was relatively easy to lift. So you could lift her up. But because that she was then placed on the wall would suggest that it was one person who placed her on the wall, climbed over the wall, and then took her off the wall and placed her the other side. And so I was saying this most likely is a single offender. But I was critical of the police investigation because I was critical that they hadn't done a proper forensic search around the area. I was expecting cigarettes to be taken, cigarette butts to be taken, crisp packets to be taken, because you never know that those potentially could contain the DNA of the offender, because we do know that offenders obviously discard things sometimes at crime scenes. Now I did a report for ITN. So it went out on the 10 o'clock news. I think it went out on the 6th as well, but it definitely went out on the 10 o'clock news. It was a report that was balanced, I would say. Little bit critical of Avon and Somerset police in terms of the searches, but it was balanced. And I think one of the things as reporters is that it's important that we show impartiality. It's important that we show that balance. And if there's a need to be critical, it's important that we are critical. And that we are the eyes and the ears, you know, challenging the police in their position. Anyway, what happened after that? was massive because I remember waking up so program goes out at 10 o'clock and I wake up the next day and obviously I'm heading down to Bristol to cover it and at about nine o'clock it might no sorry it was about six o'clock in the morning that's right there was an announc there was a a comment that was made from the press office to ITN to say we're gonna have a briefing today but ITN are banned.

jeremy: Yeah.

Mark: And I Tien said to him, What do you we're banned? Well, we're banned because we didn't like the report you put out last night and therefore we're banning you from the press office. And then we went, What what don't be so ridiculous. You can't ban your media outlet for that. Yes, it was critical, but you know, if you've got a problem, then write to the press complaints. but you know, you can't just ban a thing. And anyway, they then followed up and said, Well, the ITV, the region can turn up, but national can't. And ITV, region and national said, Well, if the regions go, they'll just feed it through to us anyway. So you're ridiculous. Anyway,

jeremy: Th it's basically a ban on you. That's it's a ban on you, that's the thing. Yeah.

Mark: so it was a ban on me. It was a ban on me, although it was obviously a ban on ATN, but it was a ban on me. Anyway, it then got discussed on the Today programme. The chief of director of programming got involved and said we stand by the report that was done. You know, if you've got a problem, made it no, and actually, it's not for you to control the media. You know, effectively you're controlling and preventing our our viewers from being knowledgeable about what's going on in the case and potentially being witnesses. How do you why why is it for Avon Somerset to control that? Anyway, fast forward and we get a situation where within hours they've not made a formal complaint, they've lifted this ban, and everything returns to normal. And this all boils down to a chief constable.

jeremy: Yeah, crazy. my goodness.

Mark: Who had a massive problem with the press and flexed his muscles, but it totally backfired at the end of the day. And then when you fast forward and you look at the way that they dealt with some of the case, it's not surprising. And actually, when it went to the O'Bailey and the trial, one of the pieces of evidence that came out in the trial was the poor quality of the search that took place at the deposition site. So the comments that I made, you know, were totally validated.

jeremy: Yeah. Totally. I mean w so It's a problem for the police, this whole story, isn't it? Because basically, if you just do a very, very methodical search, you say, right, Joanna seems to have been taken from her flat by somebody who had access to the flat or who knew her. So let's go round the building. We we've talked about Christopher Jeffries, who is falsely accused. We would it wouldn't take us long to get to the guy who lived, I think in the next door flat, actually, Vincent Tabak, this Dutchman. He then did the police a huge favor by Apparently he called them from Holland where he was to try to throw additional suspicion on Christopher Jeffries. So he said something like, I saw Christopher Jefferies following her or something. And of course at that point the police think, Well, hang on a minute, why would you ring in with this information? So they they then looked at him a second time and his he had never properly met her or had a conversation with Joanna Yates bizarrely. So he was obviously almost fascinated with her or not stalking, but, you know, g very attentive to her without her knowing. And it God only knows what happened in that flat. He looks like he took her out and then killed her outside the flat. Is that right, Mark, do you think? 'Cause surely they would have s known if if she'd been murdered in the actual flat. She was strangled, so so do we know where she died?

Mark: so his account is that he tried to kiss her within the flat or within the apartment house block, and as a result of that, she responded, she rejected him, and a struggle ensued. She did have some 43 injuries to her body. So there was a violent attack that took place. Whether that entirely took place within the house or whether it took outside, I think the large majority of it took place probably within the house. Whether she was murdered within the house or outside, we don't entirely know. Again, most probably within the flat or within the house. and The one of the things that did massively connect him was of course was that whilst they weren't able to directly find DNA that linked him, they were able to use this different type of DNA scan, which did show up in terms of one in a billion being him. Now initially he said, that is not my DNA. And if it is my DNA, because then they showed him in terms of the statistical likelihood, he said that must have been planted by the police. That was his position. Now, as is the case, whenever you do an investigation, and I always say this to anybody, and I always used to say the police, and I say it to people now is if I am going to investigate you, I will pull your life apart. I will find things in your life. That you've forgotten about, probably deliberately, because you don't want to think about it. And that will become part of my investigation. And I can tell you every single case, whether it's been as an investigative reporter or in the police, I will find things about people's lives which aren't necessarily that they want to know. Doesn't mean to say necessarily they're bad things, they're just things that perhaps are uncomfortable. They delved into his life, and what they found through his internet history. Was violence. They found pornography, particularly pornography, that linked him to violent attacks on women, tying them up, being brutal with them. And they also found, and this wasn't something that was subsequently what came out after trial, they also found child abuse images, which he was subsequently prosecuted for. So what you had is they had him now putting himself back in the inquiry by trying to put Jeffries in the inquiry, and then when they started to dig into his life, it started to paint a real picture. And what they were suggesting is that perhaps some of the material that he was watching directly linked to how he subsequently went on and killed Joanna Yates.

jeremy: So it was all there, it was all there. There's an interesting little fact about Joanna, which I which I must say, because it's completely immaterial to her sad death, but her mother's mother, her maternal grandmother, was a woman called Gwen Troke. Now, Gwen Troke was somebody who loved to cook. And in the early days of of post-war TV, 50s and 60s, Gwen appeared on the, I suppose it was a cooking show that was the probably the equivalent of the X Factor now, but it wouldn't, it wouldn't necessarily have all of that quite that sort of level of splash. But she won it, okay? So she won the show, and the the prize for winning the show was to go on with Fanny Craddock, who at the time, Fanny Craddock was the most famous cook on TV. Fanny Craddock was Gordon Ramsay.

Mark: Okay.

jeremy: And Fanny Craddock then invited her onto something called the Big Time in 1976. So Gwen Troke, member of the public, grandmother of Joanny Yates, is on the big time. Nobody's heard of her. Fanny Craddock is the Gordon Ramsay person. And they're going to do a big feast for a number of people who've got naval connections, like Lord Mountbatten. And what happened was a really interesting lesson in TV, which is that Gwen Troke, the ordinary person, says, Well, I want to do this and I want to do that, and I've got a great idea. We're going to have, we're going to have Have a prawn cocktail because that's got a seafaring element to it, and it's going to be followed by duck because that's got seafaring. And Fanny Craddock, who was at the height of her powers, completely mocked her and humiliated her for her menu, tore it to shreds, and insisted she serve a different meal, which was cooked very badly, and it's the whole thing went badly for Gwen Troke. However, the backlash wiped out Fanny Craddock's career. So people said Fanny Craddock has behaved really horribly.

Mark: Okay.

jeremy: To an ordinary lovely woman, member of the public, who's come just to do her best to cook. By the way, her menu was probably better anyway, because you can have prawn cocktail and then duck. And she wanted to serve a particular dessert that was Gren Gwen Croak's speciality. and Craddock was was game over. Isn't that interesting? So it became this thing of you know, when you are the person hosting the show, you can't be cruel to ordinary members of the public. And that became an absolute iron lore of TV until we reached.

Mark: Yes.

jeremy: the X factor when it seemed to reverse and you could be as rude as you like. So so bless her. I mean I Gwen Troke was was died in 78, only two years after that program and fortunately didn't didn't live to see her Her granddaughter falling victim to a horrible crime like this. And Vincent Tayback, the th the the strange thing about the Joanna Yates story is everyone remembers Joanna Yates in the going missing from that flat in Clifton, partly because of your news reports, Mark. Everyone remembers Christopher Jeffries, the innocent man who was basically accused because he was a bit eccentric and the police had nothing-the nothing to do because the police were so mean to them. Very few people can tell you the name of Joanna Yates' actual killer. and and so h the the fuss the other elements of this story, particularly Christopher Jeffries, meant that when Joanna's family finally got justice, Vincent Tabach quietly went off to jail and nobody remembered who he was. He's still in jail, by the way, and I think he's got a minimum twenty-eight years. So he's got a serious sentence, but he will be out in the twenty thirties, I would think.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and of course the big big difference between him is whilst he initially denied it and said that it was fabricated evidence, he did subsequently tell a prison chaplain that he did he was responsible for Joanna's murder. So in terms of rehabilitation, in terms of the parole board, the fact that he has fully admitted it will go obviously massively towards his his eventual release. And I think we will see him. And I think there's a s there's a there's an interesting point there, which is I'm often I often say is that that we must remember the victims because it's the victims that are most important. And actually when it comes to killers, particularly serial killers, we remember the name of the killer. We remember Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, Stephen Wright. Huntley, you know, these people we remember, but do we always remember the names of the victims? And I think for me that is something that I'm always very conscious of. I know when I did my Peter Sutcliffe programme, and I know subsequently when he died, there was a really strong position adopted by the media and the newspapers, which was to print the pictures of each and every one of his victims and not mention, you know, not a picture of him. And I think that's really powerful. And so in a way, in relation to Joanna Yates, I'm really pleased that we remember Joanna Yates and we don't remember Vincent Tarbuck.

jeremy: Yeah. I Agree with you to a point, and I think out of respect, we should certainly name the victims. However, the reason we are fascinated by the perpetrators is because we want to all of us pr as a primal thing, we want to work out how to avoid them. We want to work out who these people are. It's partly why we're discussing it now. Now, Vincent Tabak got, I mean, that there's there's an absolute low life scum, but some of the people we're talking about had modus operandi. They had a way of behaving amongst people that made them plausible. And we've sort of got to get a key in the lock there, I think, and and work them out. So I don't I've you know people say to me, you you're obsessed with true crime. I say, I want to be obsessed, but being not being a victim of it, actually. That's what I'm obsessed with. So, yes, okay, Levi Belfield, who you've talked about a lot, I can tell you. I just had a conversation with my wife, and she said, I've got a bad memory. And I said, Well, I can remember the victims of Levi Belfield.

Mark: Yeah. Well we we as humans

jeremy: Marsha MacDonald, Amelie Delagrange, Kate Sheedy he tried to run over, Millie Dowler. So I do remember the victims. But I'm also fascinated with what the who makes a Levi Belfield? And we'll come on to him, won't we?

Mark: Yes. And I get that and totally. I mean Levi Belfeld, I there is so much I'm currently working on a massive, massive documentary in relation to that. But I think the point is, Jeremy, you you you absolutely hit the nail on the head is we as humans are We want to we're fascinated by other people. We're fascinated in what makes them ticks. We're fascinating in why they behave in a certain way they did. That's why we like to watch Emma Dale, we like to watch Coronation Street, because we love to watch other people's problems. We love to to s have an insight into their life. And in fact, you and I are slightly different to many because I can tell you the true crime genre is overwhelmingly dominated, eight eighty percent by women. And I'm always asked why is that? And I tell you my response to that, and there's no there's only my reasoning behind this in terms of having worked in the field for so long, and that is because women tend to be more fascinated in detail. Men tend to kind of like deal with it on much more of a superficial level. They don't look into why it happened. I want to understand more. You know, the conversations that you have with a with a with your partner, whatever the female, will often be i extended when they'll talk about it to the nth degree over and over and over and over again. Whereas a man may deal with it and then move on. And I think that's very much true when we're dealing with true crime. And one of the areas that I just must must mention this before we wrap up is that.

jeremy: Huh.

Mark: Something that's always fascinated me is if you are a killer and you've brutally murdered women and that is your behaviour, tell me why so many women write to killers in jail who have done the most heinous crimes.

jeremy: Hmm, I don't know. I was on Channel Five the other day doing my daily show and a a caller rang and he was f it was a male caller and he was furious with the panelist. And I won't say the panelist's name because it it this I for me I thought it was funny. I mean the guy let's call the guy Simon and let's call the panelist Claire. And Simon says, Stop laughing, Claire. Like that. And and Claire's sort of laughing at him. And Claire Claire says, You know, what's wrong? Who upset you, Simon? And Simon says, You, you upset me. You're the one. And I put it on social media because I thought it was it was kind of funny. And she this this person who will call Claire said to me, Do you know what? I woke up this morning quite frightened of that guy. Could you take it down? So I took it down. And she said a very interesting thing to me. She said, Men are worried that women will laugh at them. Women are worried that men will kill them. And that may account for the different attitudes to this.

Mark: Yeah, I mean listen, the human the human mind is complex and I think yeah, I mean I listen We can't get into people's minds, all we can try and understand is their offending behavior by the way that they carry out their acts. And of course, we're carry we we are looking, we're shining a light into some of the most horrific and horrible cases. And you know, it is a dark area sometimes. But I think the purpose of us doing this is to try and answer. People's questions, isn't it? This is trying and give a bit of an insight into understanding. And if we understand why people commit crime, and it is absolutely true, if we understand why people commit crime, it does help us to keep ourselves safer. In the very reason, if you want to understand how to keep your house safe from being burgled, who's the best person to ask? A burglar.

jeremy: All right, listen. great to see you, Mark. Great to connect over the case of Joanna Yates, which which brought in not just the killer Vincent Tabak, but also the innocent Christopher Jeffries.

Mark: Take care. Please tell all your friends. You know, start following us, talk about it, let's get a community together. Thank you. And we'll see you next week. 30 Minute Crime.

jeremy: Here's to next time, Mark.