Jacob Creighton: Hey everybody, welcome back, episode six of our Romans eight series. lot of numbers to get there. Episode six, Romans eight. We are in we're three fourths of the way there. Chris: Yeah. Three fourths of the way there now. That's what we're doing. Jacob Creighton: We are in verses twenty eight through thirty. so if you haven't checked out the first five episodes, go ahead and do that. it's been it's been a great time. So Chris: Yeah, I think, as I said on Sunday, I'm gonna make we're gonna make form podcast T shirts with this verse on it. and coffee mugs. Yeah, that's what we're gonna do. Jacob Creighton: Yeah, we should. We should. We did on Sunday get the wrong verse on the screen during this. So Chris referenced a a t-shirt and a coffee mug and the wrong verse was up there. So I think our people were like, wait a second, who would put that? Who would put eight twenty-nine on a coffee mug? Chris: 829. Nobody wants that. Yeah, that ain't that ain't working Jacob Creighton: So, Chris, would you Chris: as well. Jacob Creighton: would you read us these Chris: Yes, yes. Jacob Creighton: stalwarts of verses? Chris: Absolutely. Romans 8 28, and we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his son, so that we would be the firstborn aming among many brethren. And those whom he predestined, he also called, and those whom he called, he also justified, and those whom he justified. He also glorified, What then shall we say? You just want to keep going. It's like that Paul. It's getting all fired up. I can't imagine how fast this pen's going. His quill or whatever it is. Jacob Creighton: Yep. Man, good stuff. Chris: so good. Jacob Creighton: Good stuff. hard to confine it to just these. You wanna just keep going? Chris: yeah. Jacob Creighton: you wanna just keep going. But there's a lot in these three verses worthy to be unpacked here in this episode. And as Chris Chris preached on Sunday. So reading it again right now, what's hitting you fresh? Chris: Man, I that that very beginning, and we know. And we know. that's where I started on Sunday, but it's just been a heavy thing for me. not just the implicit knowledge that God is working, but the like definitive beyond the shadow of any doubt. I know that my God is working right now through this circumstance and this situation. in this period in my life. that confidence there. Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, Chris: So good. Jacob Creighton: if you listen to our last episode we talked about groanings and suffering and everything and then immediately you make the turn into this verse and we know it yeah. Yeah, we we know that God's using these things for good and it's an an eternal thing as it's laid out later in these verses. Chris: Mm-hmm. Jacob Creighton: that we're we're kinda just along for the ride on catching pieces of Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: it going wow I my my focus was here and this is so much broader than what I can fathom and think and imagine so yeah thinking about thinking about that knowledge that like present knowledge within suffering to go hey Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Jacob Creighton: I I know for a fact that Even in all these things, God's working it together for good. So Chris: Well, and I think that's part of I I I just thinking about it now. how much is that part of spiritual maturity Jacob Creighton: Right. Chris: is is not just that, you know, I I can like we lock talked about in the last episode, I I know how to pray, or Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Chris: I give a certain amount, or I can know a certain answer a certain amount of like biblical Jacob Creighton: Mm-hmm. Chris: questions or whatever it is, but how much is spiritual maturity just simply knowing beyond the shadow of any doubt? That God's going to come through in the moment. I think about that in so many of the Old Testament Jacob Creighton: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Chris: passages. when Elijah started just in like in his most way possible, started dumping water. And he was like, Yeah, anybody else? Any more? Okay, more. Let's put more water on. More water on, more water on. And it's just like, my God will do it. I mean, David, when he faced Goliath, my God will do it. I know my God will do it. Moses, when he stood at the Red Sea, it was kind of like, All right, I'm gonna lift my hands and then boom, my God will do it. I there's yeah, and we know. Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Yeah, there's a confidence in that verse, there's a confidence in that faith. we say it all the time of not just wishful thinking. This is like yeah, without a shadow of shadow of a doubt we know that God's the orchestrator of all this for a good purpose. Chris: Uh-huh. Yeah, Jacob Creighton: So Chris: it's like it's it's funny too. I was just thinking about the last last podcast versus this one, for like we don't even know how to pray as we should, but we know that God will do something, you know? Jacob Creighton: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we don't know how to pray like we should, but we do know Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: Yeah, that's good. Chris: That God's gonna work this out. Which again is crazy too. you think about that, and it's like, man, I I don't even have some just basic box that I can check, but yet God is still going to work. I think again, it takes it makes us the object of God's work, not the subject of the work. Not that, you know, we're not the ones having to perform and prove ourselves before God all of a sudden shows up on the scene. Paul is saying you you don't know how to pray, he's interceding for you, and now he's gonna be working Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Chris: on your behalf and he's working all things for good. Jacob Creighton: Yep. Yeah, it's like, hey, bring your groan and here God God's gonna catch you up on his timeline. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And hang on. Here we go. Jacob Creighton: Hang on, here you go. Yeah. Yeah, that's so good. Chris: Yeah, 'cause there's there's an object or th I guess there's a there's a purpose of his working. God's working all things together for good. And so whatever that good is, you better hang on. Here we go. Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. in your sermon I I kinda wanna hit hit this kind of to start. you kinda pressed in a little bit on us and and I'd love for you to spend some time with it today. Chris: Uh-huh. Jacob Creighton: on man, we oftentimes like to pray for like a solution to our circumstances. We wanna pray so that this thing ends or this like sickness stops or this you know, a way is made or that I feel better or something like there's always a solution a lot of times to what we pray for. but you suggested kind of a another way of us to to think when we pray. Yeah, I'd love for you to kinda unpack that. And help us out. 'Cause yeah. And w and what you said too, it's not it's not bad to pray for situation yeah, different circumstances. Situations need to change. Chris: Now it's a different circumstance, yeah. Yeah. if you if we were getting if we were in the midst of persecution for our faith, and Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Chris: we're we're basically gonna have our head chopped off. Like, is it a bad thing to say, hey, don't chop my head off? I mean, even Jesus prayed, you know, Jacob Creighton: No, yeah, no. Chris: let this cup pass from me. And so I think that is an invited thing, that's an invitation from our God to pray that. But is Jacob Creighton: For sure. Chris: that all? And I think that's where, Jesus in the garden, let this cup pass from me, but not my will, but yours be done. And again, I want God you to be glorified and my eternal good to follow. and so I think the the difference here is is how often do we just simply want the the the situation to change or the circumstances to change. But is that all we really want? I don't I don't think that's what the depths of our heart, that our redeemed heart is longing for, is just for easy life and health and wealth and prosperity and unicorns and rainbows and fields of daisies. You know, I think those are great, but is that it? And so I think that's where, you know, you look at what the whole purpose of the good is is if God is working for our good, that's not just the removal of these circumstances. It's to be conformed to the image of a son. But how often do we actually pray in the midst of hard things, hey, shape me and form me and mold me into look like Christ in this? Jacob, I'm a pastor. I'm supposed to have this all down, man. I'm like a professional. And how many times have I prayed in hard circumstances? Mold me and shape me in this. Don't change the circumstance unless you unless it's your will. But man, let me glorify you in this. I I have prayed that. Thank goodness I have prayed it. I can't say that confidently. Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right. Chris: Have I prayed that? And ask that as many times as I would have liked to looking back. No, I have. Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Yeah, we're such a results driven, prove it type of folk that Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: and I think this is what Paul's getting at here is like, man, we a lot of times want the result to say, yeah, I prayed for this and got this and sudden God must be working. And and that is true, certainly in some of those examples you've said. But yeah, God's God's at work. He's he's at work. That's the standard. He's working all things together for his good. I think of I think of Paul. You know, we we've talked about it all the time. A lot of the situations that he experienced, the persecution he experienced, the the hardships he endured, and I th what came to mind just as you talking was him saying like, Yeah, to be Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: absent in the body is to be present with the Lord and so while I'm enduring hardships God's presence is with me and I can know that He is good right now and you know the ultimate day comes where I'm gone from this earth like I'm in full presence. So you know good to better. Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: So Chris: Well, and I think too, that's that's the the eternal pieces we're we when we get to heaven, we will fully experience our image there because we'll be in God's presence. And Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Yep. Chris: I think, but we can have the mind of Christ now, which of course doesn't just mean we can think like Christ. It's this, Jacob Creighton: Right. Chris: you know, the the the mind usage in in this Greek literature would have been like your like central capacity. So our central capacity can be like that of Christ. And so in this hardship that God is working for good, what is he doing? But he's conforming us, or actually, I think, transforming us to look like Christ. You know, the world is forming us one way. The world is saying, hey, in the midst of this, grab, you know, grab the bull by the horns, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, you know, earn your way out of this. Or it's like, Keep the receipts, blame someone else, do something that Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Chris: can get you on top. And here he's like, no, I am forming you and shaping you to look like my son, my son who I sent to be in human flesh. You can have his mind, you can have his central being in this. I'm going to form you in the midst of the circumstance. And as you get formed in that. the the the transfer from earth to heaven becomes so much less because it's not this big jump anymore. I I am looking more like Christ, more and more and more like Christ. Jacob Creighton: Yeah, that's good. Chris, I wrote a song called All Things for Good. And I pulled it Chris: You did. And I've i I I Jacob Creighton: and I I was on Sunday, I was like, you're wrapping up. I was like, why didn't why didn't I go? Why didn't I do it? Chris: All right, for the listener, I can't tell you how many times I have told Jacob Creighton, you Jacob Creighton: This Chris: need to play this song that you wrote. It used to be on Spotify. I will pay your Spotify thing. Like it that it song is so good. Jacob Creighton: Yeah, it'll it'll get back on it'll get back on. It's a it's a complicated thing. But anyway, I actually I wrote that Chris: The cop fucking hate it, thing. Jacob Creighton: song like coming out of COVID and I don't even know what kind of sparked that idea of it, but man, I had some friends experience some really hard things. Obviously COVID was a tough situation and it was I I think I had Ya you often hear this verse of God's working all things together for good, Chris: Mm-hmm. Jacob Creighton: as a it's almost like a shallow condolences Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: to people who are grieving or it's like, man, I d I got the job, man, God's working all things together for good. You know, and it's like it's it's actually my good that I like Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Jacob Creighton: it God's working out on my plan is kinda how it's used. But Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Jacob Creighton: I think as I was like writing and processing that these verses and songs was like It was really helpful to express those hard things and going like the chorus basically says, Help me to know that you're working all things for good in me. Like I know it helped me to internalize that like these hard things Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: we're facing, these things that don't make sense still don't make sense and we're what, six years removed from a lot of these s situations, still don't make sense, you know. Help me to just rest in that truth that you're working all things for good. So that's the heart from that. I'm not gonna sing the chorus right now. You gotta listen to the no, no, no, Chris: Sing the chorus. Let's sing the chorus. Come on. Jacob Creighton: I'm not gonna sing it in the chorus. We're we're moving on. We're moving on to the next point, Chris. Chris: There's a there's copyright infringement or something going on, I think. It's complicated. Your agent. Ailer. Jacob Creighton: Yeah, dude. I gotta check with my I gotta check with my my yeah, my agent who is my wife. The songwriter. I have to give appropriate credits to me, the songwriter. Anyway. yeah. Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: I do wanna get on to the next verse though, 'cause I I wanna spend a good amount of time on this. You brought up the chain of unbreakable chain of salvation. And we we we we Chris: Unbreakable chain of salvation, yes. Jacob Creighton: unpack Chris: Or Jacob Creighton: that in the sermon if you if you haven't listened to it go listen to it. My from my perspective sitting in the congregation, it was really cool for to see our people get that deep theological, like God sized perspective thing in like a Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: bullet point format and they're like, my gosh, this is great. This is so cool. Like I Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: just it I was like sitting there and feeling like people's minds exploding around me. So yeah, Eve, I would love for you just to Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: talk about it. Chris: I'm I'm gonna start this though, Jacob, just as like with a lament. And so I want to lament Christian culture a little bit with with this, the Theo, the Theo bro culture piece. I'm gonna say this, I might get crucified, I'll be fine with that. but you know, it really Jacob Creighton: Do it. Do it. We'll make sure to clip this. Chris: it it really irritates me when we use the terms foreknowledge of God and predestination of God, and we use that as a weapon against people. And because Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Chris: man, in this study, I like it it I I almost want to get emotional in this, but it like deepened this, it like opened this treasure trove of reality of God's character and his thoughts and his love towards me. If God is a God of love, he has been a God of love since the very beginning, and he will be a God to the very end. And obviously that's an eternal end. There is no end to it. it, as I said, the little eight on the side just keeps going. you just keep tracing it. it, you Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Yeah. Chris: could do it all day long forever. And man, when you start talking about the foreknowledge of God, it is not an exclusionary thing. It's this beautiful deep well of Jacob Creighton: Yeah. For sure. Chris: of love and mercy and grace and kindness and and and truth. And it it It's it it it's it blows you away. Now, is it some tough things to wrestle with? Sure, but it Jacob Creighton: For sure. Chris: also just opens up this well of truth on God's character that that really cannot be compared to any other conception of God. And I think that's where I just got so excited because we so we say so often, like in this, like, you know, we pick on the t-shirt and the coffee mug of like, yeah, God's working all good, you know, all things for good. Like, And it's my plans, He's he's working out my plans, is what we're really saying, like you're saying. But when things don't work out the way we want them to, Jacob Creighton: Right. Chris: do we know that God is working? And I think Paul drops this bomb in here, not to give us this like Jacob Creighton: Yeah, no. Chris: theological cage that we can just like be in and be angry about. Jacob Creighton: Yeah, and it's like out even outside of the context, you know, it's like that cage Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: is like so far over here that it's like Chris: And if you're listening and you don't know what we're talking about, praise God. Like, don't go look it up because it would just make you angry. But man, okay, so we ask the question, is God working? Like, is he actually working? Is the question that we want to ask. And that's what Paul drops right here. And he's like, like, listen to this language. He says in verse 28, and we know I'm I'm not 28, 29. For those of he foreknew, he also predestined. So he starts with the foreknowledge of God. The foreknowledge piece, no, could also be like translated love, which is what the Hebrews would have known of it. That's why when you read your Bible, sometimes it says like Adam knew Eve. Well, that means they they were they were having sex, you know. They like they intimately knew each other. Okay. I said on the podcast we won't get canceled, but like there's this love there, okay? There's this deep, intimate love. So God for loved us. This is What this implication is, is that from the beginning of eternity, whenever that was, God loved. And it's like if you Jacob Creighton: Crazy. Chris: know Jesus, if you are Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Chris: a follower of Jesus, if you have said with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and you were saved, from the beginning of eternity, God loved you. And it's like, whoa. And then it goes, Well, for those whom he foreknew or for loved, he also predestined. So that's another eternal aspect there. So from the beginning of eternity, you have been predestined, which means essentially that God has made a definitive way. For you to be in relationship with him. And there is nothing that can stop that. If our God is all-powerful, then the way that he makes is a way that will be traveled. And so the opportunity is definitively there for you to come to know him. So this is an eternity, all right? For all of time we have been for-loved and predestined. But those of me predestined, he also called. So there's this effectual call, which we say would be like the effectual call of the gospel. So it's the good news of Jesus Christ is that there is a call upon my life, your life, Jacob, those that are followers of Jesus, where the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is giving us access to God. And that brings about life, eternal life, life now, life for eternity, and life that we get to share with each other. And I'm like, man, sign me up, bo. Jacob Creighton: For sure. Chris: So that call comes to me and I'm like, yes, well, I've been for loved, I've been or for known, predestined. Now I'm called. In the moment, in the the accepting of that call, I am then justified, which is in a moment thing. Like I am in that golly, it's so crazy. In that moment when Jesus Christ died on the cross for us, what he was doing was taking our shame, guilt, and fear upon himself. When he said, Take this wrath from me. It was the wrath of God upon him. He took that on himself. And he says, No, wait, before I do this, here's my righteousness. Put it on and wear it well. And it's like, what? What have I done yet? I've done nothing. I've done nothing. For all Jacob Creighton: I know. Chris: eternity, God has loved me, predestined me, called me, justified. And then I think what's so crazy is this last word is, and those whom he He justified, he also glorified. And Paul uses the same verb tense for all of these verbs with God as the subject, us as the object. But the tense of glorified is the same tense of foreknowing and for loved. And so, like God in his eternal state knew us and loved us, but also looks at us in our glorified state at the end of eternity. And so when we talk about glory to come, yeah, in our current state, I talked about it as like watching a parade. You only see what goes by you at the moment. at the Greenfield Christmas parade, I'm just looking for the candy from the float that's coming by, like, Costa, throw me some candy, you know, and like then the next float comes, throw me some more candy. And like, I don't remember what came Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Chris: before and I don't know what's coming next, but I know what's in front of me. And Jacob Creighton: Yep. Chris: so like we're in this, like what's in front of me right now is the life that we are in right now. But our God is not in that. He's above that, he's eternal. And so he is already seeing us in our glorified state as followers Jacob Creighton: Yeah, that's crazy. Chris: of Jesus Christ. Jacob Creighton: Yeah, hearing you talk about that, I I was thinking of man, I don't feel glorified yet and I'm not completely but I also like for the first four, I'm like there's times when I don't feel like I was foreknown, predestined, called, justified. Chris: yeah. Yeah. Jacob Creighton: If those first four things are true, the fifth is also true. It's crazy stuff. Chris: I mean that's the thing. If you think about those things, and even though you don't feel it, Jacob, you are. Jacob Creighton: Exac that's that's what I'm saying, yeah. Chris: the it it you can't change that truth. The truth is it's not an if, it is a it is for knowledge. Like Jacob Creighton: Exactly. Yeah, that's like I'm saying for the for the glorified one it's it's like well we'll see. No. No, as true as the first Chris: there's no seeing. Jacob Creighton: four are same as true as the fifth. Chris: It's as done as Matt Canada running a jet sweep. it's is it's it's coming. Everybody knows it's coming. It's done. It's over. And Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Yeah. Chris: I like, and that's the thing is then we go back and we have to reassess kind of what our thoughts here and we have to ask ourselves, okay, is God working? He's been working for all of eternity. Like what what would make this like this float Jacob Creighton: Yeah, man. Chris: on the parade any different? Jacob Creighton: Yes. Chris: I that's where it's just like okay. And that's where I don't understand. You know, I said in the sermon, like this, I don't understand the whole like I'm right in predestination for knowledge. Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Chris: It's like, no, do you realize what this actually tangibly gives us? Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Chris: Like, I I want everybody, I don't Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Chris: I don't know if this person next to me is called or not. I don't know if they were predestined for no, I don't know. whatever. Jacob Creighton: Yeah, yeah, forget the argument, dude. Chris: I'm gonna do whatever I can to make sure they have every chance. Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Chris: If the official call goes over their head, that's not up for me, but I'm gonna make sure I tell And I'm gonna make sure that when hard things hit, I'm gonna be reminded in every way possible shape I can that I have a God that foreknew me, predestined me, called me, justified, and glorified me. Jacob Creighton: Yeah, that's good. That's good. Chris went with the analogy of the parade. I wanted you to give the analogy Chris: The tool. Jacob Creighton: of a t of a time lapse. you know, when watch a time lapse you kinda step outside of yourself and watch the whole thing happen in a short clip. That's kind of what this verse is, but I I wanted to be comical 'cause I don't know how many of our folks would have gotten it, but I wanted to use use a time lapse of a tulip. But This is why I'm this is why I'm not preaching the sermon. Chris: Man, you're t you're totally depraved, Jacob. You're totally depraved. You're there's Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Okay. All right. Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: yeah, I I think to take all of that and the unbreakable chain of salvation I we got to see some incredible responses from the people in our church and I think I was I was mind blown by even just getting the chance to read some of them, you know, like Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: wondering even for the first time if it's, clicking for folks, man, I am so moment by moment, day by day, hour by hour, that like that's all I see. And so Chris: Mm-hmm. Jacob Creighton: to step back and see, no, this is f like in a quick, you know, time lapse version, this is what God's doing for all of eternity for me. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Jacob Creighton: On my behalf. I think it was r just really cool to see those responses come in and be like, I don't even really know what to do with this. It's so overwhelming. yeah. Chris: Yeah. I and that's where you you get to the point where it's it's it I again it goes back to what we said in the last last podcast, but he meets us in our weakness. we we don't even in our best effort have the ability to comprehend us. He meets us here, he intercedes for us, he works for our good because he's been he's been doing this stuff for all of eternity. Like we can't Not respond to this. holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. Amen. Jacob Creighton: Yeah, the the correct response is wow. Chris: Yeah. just don't talk. Just just watch it. Just just watch it. Jacob Creighton: Yeah, truly incredible stuff. any any last comments, words you've got for us? Chris: No, I just I I I I this has just been encouraging for me to even process through this, just to be reminded of the beauty and the character of God. Jacob Creighton: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, this I mean, thinking about it, this is the formed podcast. We did it we named it this from our s series on spiritual formation, but we we knew that it had some like bigger implications. I think this is, Chris: Yeah. Jacob Creighton: you know, going through this series, especially the last few episodes, helping me realize like, yeah, the it's it's our prayer for you as listeners for our church is that Yeah, God would just do his work of formation in us and through us and ways that he does that is he shows us who he is in his word and we go, Wow. And we're changed because of it. So that's our prayer for you. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Shit. Jacob Creighton: so yeah, thanks for joining us. Leave us a comment, say wow, and yeah, share this with your friends and Theo Bros and family. So yeah. Chris: no. Yeah. Jacob Creighton: Yeah. thanks for joining us. Good to be here with you. Thanks, Chris. we'll see ya we'll see you next week. Chris: See you soon.