Amelia Cartwright: And of course, give Isabelle Hospice a follow as well on Instagram. They are Isabelle Hospice Shops. So make sure you go follow them and see all the fantastic pre-loved goods they have in their shops and on eBay as well. And Sam, you can give me my payout for that little shout out later. No, I'm only joking. They do a great job. Well done, guys. Isabelle Hospice. welcome back to the Charity Shop Chat podcast. ⁓ You're myself, Charlotte Greenwood. And with Mimi Cartwright. As always, this podcast is powered by the Charity Retail Consultancy, ⁓ where we charities maximise their retail performance, build brilliant shop teams and ⁓ raise as money as possible for their incredible causes. ⁓ The charity retail learning subscription in conjunction with the CRO provides almost 50 modules of online training specifically for charity shops. So ⁓ sure you check it out. And today's episode then, it is a big one. ⁓ So are diving into the question, can everyone win? So we're looking at the future of retail, reuse and circular economy because that is all ⁓ what here for. ⁓ ⁓ charity shops are full of stories that deserve to be told and we always love sharing them with you. So thank you for listening. Bye. Perfect. And to help us explore this, we're joined by someone who truly shaped the landscape of UK retail, Jan Marchant, the most recent winner of the prestigious Draper's Lifetime Achievement Award. Jan began her fashion journey back in 1980 ⁓ at the iconic Topshop before going to build Tesco's F &F brand into a powerhouse under her leadership. She led extraordinary growth at FNF, it online ⁓ and after ⁓ hiatus championed forward innovations digital passports. And she is known for her leadership style ⁓ rooted people, compassion and emotional intelligence. I mean, that's a great ego boost, isn't it? It's lovely. Thank you so much for that. It sounds like you're ⁓ talking about someone else. Not at really great. Thank you. She pioneered flexible working long before it became mainstream ⁓ and supported parents throughout organization and really led with authenticity that truly transformed teams and culture. ⁓ After nearly 20 years at the of Tesco's fashion business, she announced her retirement earlier this year. ⁓ making her the perfect recipient of Draper's Lifetime Achievement Award. And she really does bring a unique perspective to this conversation as well because she's also a trustee on the trading board at Isabel Hospice, giving her insight from both the commercial and charity retail worlds. I mean, there really isn't anything that she hasn't done at this point in time. So welcome, Jan. We are excited to have you with us and congratulations on your award. It's very much an incredible, well-deserved recognition. So ⁓ yeah, claps all around. ⁓ you, Charlotte. And thank Mimi. Really great to be with you today. Yeah, such kind words. I love doing that little intro to all of our guests because they're always there going, ⁓ my ⁓ It's a lovely ego boost. So you've had an extraordinary career in retail. You started your career in Topshop, which was iconic, and you went to transform &F into a major player. ⁓ So looking back, what moments or achievements do you feel that most define your journey? Yeah, thank you for that question. It's a good one. if I think about the long career that I've had, there have been some key moments that I'll never forget. But I think the opportunity that I was given at Tesco to not only become a leader, but also spend time developing not only what I was doing, but how I was doing it. that sort of switch and light bulb moment is something that I'll never forget. I think through time, ⁓ know, the Tesco experience has got better and better on that. ⁓ ⁓ it definitely was something that helped me really connect to ⁓ organization, but also just to think about how important that is. So. ⁓ Yeah, that was a big kind of light bulb moment for me and something that made me kind of want to put in more effort to think about how we all show up and treat each other and as a result be more successful. yeah, that probably was it amongst a few other bits and pieces, of course. That's lovely. And a lovely introduction to highlight that as like... momentous part of your career. You were an early advocate for flexible working and supporting employees with families before it was common ⁓ ⁓ What kind inspired you to take that approach? I've got children ⁓ and ⁓ I ⁓ set out in my sort of working career, became a mum sort of fairly early on. just don't think I did it the right way. I was so keen to ⁓ prove myself ⁓ almost ⁓ that I a mum ⁓ and to prove I didn't need to take my foot off the gas that ⁓ I ⁓ probably put under too much pressure. And as the kids got older, I could see that that wasn't always in their interest either. And of course I had good childcare support and a lovely family. But, you know, sometimes I should have made a decision to put the kids first or go to that sports day or be there ⁓ in one of the moments when they needed me, when they were poorly. And I was scared to be honest about that at work because I thought showing that kind of side of me would... would be kind of frowned upon. And honestly, I think in the era that I was working through the late 80s, 90s, I'm not sure I was wrong. And I sensed quite quickly that I needed to, hide a little bit of that myself and just put myself under too much pressure. So the kids got a bit older, and I was working with teams, becoming a leader, know, loving the people I work with and noticing that they were starting their own families. I was keen to make sure that they had support and they knew they had support from not just me, but from the people around them to be really honest about when they might be struggling and when the kids were, I don't know, in need of their support or... just, I encourage them to talk about what's going on at home because when we do, when we are ourselves at work, we're a much better employee and friend and colleague. And so I think it was more, it was more just like a natural encouragement that I found I wanted to give to people around me so that they almost, I don't know. kind of learn from my mistakes. I didn't want anyone else to feel that they had to make the same mistakes as me. They probably still did, by the way, but I didn't want them to feel that pressure. Yeah, that's so relatable though, isn't it? I've got two small kids and my career, I've been a working mum and actually out of my NCT class, I think I was the only one that went back to full-time work, which was quite surprised about, know, lucky, lucky that they could stay at home, but I didn't. Partly because also wanted to go back. to work, I wanted to kind of be that role model and show my kids that mommy can work too, and mommy can bring home the money But yeah, it's so relatable because you just feel like have to do it all, but then then feel like you're failing in both places. So at work, when you do have to leave work early to go pick up the kids because someone's fallen ill ⁓ or anything like that, you feel like you're letting down your team or your manager. ⁓ And then at home, you don't feel like you're 100 % present for your children. So having managers and leadership that really understand that balance is so important. Because like you said, you might still carry on doing it anyway. But to be felt, understood, and reassured that it's OK, whatever you choose to do, if you have to choose your family today, then that's absolutely fine. You know that you'll go back to work and you'll get the job done. Absolutely. And you know, ⁓ think about this generations of kids that are coming through ⁓ I don't know, it's my view that they benefit from having parents and, you know, carers with them ⁓ ⁓ know, not to be sort of passed from pillar to post, which I know isn't the case, but ⁓ that feeling that the kids count too ⁓ is just something we all want. and let's talk about it at work and let's help each other out and do a great job. it's or commercial, ⁓ there are a lot women working in retail, aren't they? So it's so much more important to be able to have that kind of ⁓ conversation. ⁓ I remember one my old companies, ⁓ had a chat with MD, like she had a chat with everyone, ⁓ and someone said to in the Q &A, but you how do you manage being a working mum? ⁓ And she said, ⁓ just throw money at the problem. Which is true, you can do that, but not everyone has the luxury of being able to do that when you've got a room of people who are on different wage salaries. So to have those in leadership who know that sometimes you can't just throw money at the problem and sometimes you do have to be home, you do have to leave work or come back into work a little bit later is brilliant. yeah. But also it's your heart, isn't it? You the feelings, you might be able to throw money at it, but the feelings of... and the guilt. The money can't take that away I don't think. Yeah, no definitely not. So moving on to the circular economy and kind of the future of retail then. in your opinion you know working for ⁓ major retailers as well as now working on the trading board for Isabel Hospice who've got 17 shops in in Hertfordshire and an e-commerce platform and eBay. ⁓ Do you think the shift towards reuse and resale is truly embedded in retail now, or do you think it's still in kind of the earlier stages? Well, I think it's in its earlier stages, but it's really off quickly. And we can see that through looking at market share data. ⁓ know, the reuse market is ⁓ the biggest, fastest growing sector within that, which is fantastic news. So... ⁓ It almost feels like a generational shift and wearing reused clothes is cool. But also, know, within the kids wear market, as parent and now a grandparent, ⁓ everybody feels the need to hand down clothes that... quite honestly, the kids didn't have one for very long because they grow so quickly. in the kids wear market, there's an awful lot more, you know, reusing going on that probably doesn't even show up in market shared numbers because there's no money exchanged. that passing on culture is something that everybody feels good about. So, yeah, I think it's growing. And as the sort of new generation of parents come through now, I think it's something everybody wants to do. So I think it's only gonna get bigger and bigger. It's interesting because one of my daughters is going to Japan next week and on their wish list they want to go to the thrift shops and actually that's charity shops under another name, isn't it? It's about shopping it in a way that you maybe got a bit of help with how to style it but as a trend it's great because it's cool as well as big common sense. Yeah, absolutely. I think the rise of thrift of secondhand of sustainability, it comes from a place of like complete need Yeah. Yeah. There is a need for that shift in terms of, like environmental needs. ⁓ But It's especially in Japan they have a real strict policy on like fake designer wear. So, you know, your thrift shopping or your secondhand shopping in places like Japan are gonna be 100 % legit It's wonderful, isn't it? It's so fantastic. is. It's great. Yeah, it's very exciting. So introduced digital product passports, which are a big step towards transparency. how do you see technology shaping the next phase of sustainable retail? Yeah, great question. ⁓ Well, it was under my leadership that the team found the basically that was available to be able to deliver on that digital passport and such a good initiative that everybody wanted to get behind it. as tech advances ⁓ ⁓ perhaps might be currently a QR code that people have to use, ⁓ is getting smaller and smaller and the way that it's now attached to a garment has become ⁓ and more sort of part of the garment. that if interested, know, customers and all of us can see the sort of history of where the fabric came from and the raw materials came from and ⁓ of that. So as tech gets better ⁓ ⁓ is going to play a huge part of this because, you know, the information ⁓ sits behind ⁓ digital passport. currently loaded on by in some way and part of that process at the moment will be manual, but I'm sure it won't be for long. So I think it's going to get even easier to kind of know what sits behind the garment or any product that we're buying. And then we've got a choice, haven't we? And if we think we will, we ought to be able to do better than that. We ought to be able to find a more sustainable source. Then we can choose to opt out. And that will then create a sort of commercial decision. making that will only encourage us to think about the environment even more. So yeah, I think all good, but just like anything else that's going to benefit from technology, I don't think we can even imagine how fast that's going to change. Yeah, ⁓ obviously, in a way, that is slightly terrifying, but ⁓ exciting to be able to have that transparency ⁓ and yeah, be able to... ⁓ have these discussions a lot more openly because of how that is being promoted or discussed. It's a very exciting time for sustainability and for working together consumers to be able to make that ⁓ One of the things that ⁓ sort ⁓ fascinated ⁓ and it's ⁓ still true now, ⁓ who is involved in the fashion industry wants to do better for the planet and they want to do better in terms. So it never felt like an initiative that had to be pushed or objectives didn't have to be given because the will do it is unquestionable. ⁓ And that in itself is going to give all of that, no matter how hard, it's going to give the whole conversation and topic a much better chance. So, yeah, I think it's exciting. Absolutely amazing. ⁓ ⁓ part of that kind of national circular economy, what potential do you see for charity retail ⁓ part of that? ⁓ as you are now trustee for a charity yourself, has that view changed at all since taken on? that role and full disclosure to the listeners, I used to work for Isabel Hospice. So used to be my trustee, fabulous trustee. You know, get the ones that are really operational and then you get Jan who just wants to be able to give really, really good support, And that's ⁓ what you want from a ⁓ when you work for a charity retailer is you want the trustees to say, what help can I give you? So it was working with you, Charlotte, and thank you for your kind words. the guys that ⁓ are in the roles are the experts and are a real expert. So actually my job is to support ⁓ and to make sure that we can ⁓ ⁓ what is needed. And ⁓ I that of overview has shown and also can help ⁓ Isabel Hospice, but also any... charity shop organization probably feel confident that there is a growing market and this this the opportunity is there as you mentioned Mimi the curated side of charity shops, which has really taken off in other countries is an opportunity now that does require training and skill and and you know charity shops are often run by volunteers, so it's harder to get to almost train some of the skills that are necessary to be able to encourage that kind of ⁓ presentation and customer experience. But nevertheless, it's an opportunity that somehow organizations will overcome. So I think as a trustee, my belief is there that the market is growing and it will continue to grow. And there are challenges, the cost of living crisis and the... involved in running charity shops have been really difficult over the last two years but it's not a reason to be put off. I think where we are all starting to overcome some of those challenges and make some choices then I think it's with the belief that it's going to be something that is a big opportunity for the future to raise money and support the charitable cause which is it's the purpose of the whole experience and it's the purpose of the whole organization. But meanwhile, knowing that from a planet point of view, it makes absolute common sense as well. And from a customer point of view, it's amazing how people feel so good about that secondhand purchase or buying a bag of surprise items, knowing that they've been clever enough to style it into an outfit and feel very proud about that. So it's a win, win, win, win. definitely everyone's winning. And kind of going back to your point, ⁓ you said you were at Tesco and F &F, ⁓ there was a want to do it. Everyone wanted to be sustainable. So it wasn't something that was pushed on them. And that is the same with charity retailers, that they want make as much money as possible from their shops to go back to their cause for the charity. ⁓ But how do balance that kind of mission and margin and still achieve the objectives ⁓ that you want to? ⁓ I think many big organizations now have committees ⁓ that a sustainability agenda and therefore the commercial teams someone answer to, to ensure that they making progress and doing better. ⁓ every year. So whilst margin might be one of the KPIs, less carbon or taking some of those initiatives on board will also be another key driver. I mean, some of the sustainability initiatives ⁓ have turned to be economically beneficial too, but that isn't always the case. And so I think it's thinking long-term rather than ⁓ and also knowing that customers expect So if we're not... making that effort, then we're doing the wrong thing for customers. And that's the most important kind of stakeholder at the end of it all. Absolutely. I have to say it's really exciting. I think we do a lot of times ⁓ sit in a bit of an chamber with charity retailers who've had years and years of experience trying to do the thing. And yeah, it's to kind of have that. a bit more of an outside perspective and to hear how aligned our missions are in senses with ⁓ the world outside of the third sector is very exciting. So kind of moving on to that then, ⁓ we've discussed briefly ⁓ when we talk about ⁓ circularity and within our sector kind of often ask, can everyone win? ⁓ So how can ⁓ corporate retailers the circular economy without impacting market share and income for charity retailers? ⁓ Yeah, a great question. ⁓ I one of ⁓ the of nice things and the opportunity ⁓ that problem of the planet and the damage that the clothing industry in particular can do to the planet ⁓ is that it's a joint problem and there's nothing to be gained by going off on one's own, trying to solve it on one's own. I think the coming together of the whole industry with certain, through certain other organizations and committees and groups where ideas are exchanged is a great, is a really good thing. has, that behavior has... has really been encouraged and I think retailers value it. So if we all decide that we're going to use a certain type of, I don't know, recycle polyester or there is way of making sure that the communities in which we serve are better looked after, then it tends to be that without it being a scrabble and a fight to do it first, it tends to be, actually it's good for everybody, so let's share that with each other. And so that's a win. I think, know, work definitely is a really lovely way of connecting, but it's also right for everyone. So I think, yeah, that's a win. ⁓ And then there is an element of competition in the sense that, how can someone else do that so well? And perhaps we aren't doing it. Well, then we have to sharpen up a bit and do better. So everybody's striving to do the right thing, I believe. And... Yeah, working together and learning from each other and competing a bit is good. I think the discourage, know, the kind of greenwashing scandal, if you like, has been a really big learning for everybody. And as I shop now, I notice that people aren't shouting about what they've done in a... in a look at us, aren't we great kind of way. It's almost like embedded into the values of the retailer rather than being a poster child for that retailer. And I believe that's a good thing too. It's authentic, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah. It's not words. Yeah. It's meaning. Yeah. So that's also a great change, Listen, we've still got a long, long way to go, haven't we? We're still buying too many clothes and we're still not wearing them for long enough. I think that sort of striving to deliver better quality garments that will last longer is another kind of trend almost that retailers have sort of embodied and embraced. And again, that will help charity retail because the quality of the goods will be better and the life of the garment will be longer. And we all feel good about finding that lovely piece of knitwear or a good coat. that's made to last and it's going to see me out for a few seasons. yeah, lots to be positive about. Yeah, absolutely. And I love you're saying about authenticity and this is I think we have begun to talk about a lot on this podcast is bringing it back to human ⁓ and the planet, of course. like, tapping into that like authentic connection that we get from ⁓ ⁓ shopping in a charity shops is that, yeah, making that real connection and being able to like, look at this. I got this and it sustainable and ⁓ I can wear it with pride. And it's also really cool because it's made by great designers. ⁓ So all of that is so Yeah, we just need more people to kind of know about it. ⁓ I think it's happening naturally, but perhaps it could go a little bit faster. ⁓ So where do you see the biggest opportunities collaboration between charities and commercial retail? Is it just about ⁓ kind of them stock to charity retailers or is there anything more that they could or we could all do together? Yeah, that's interesting. don't think there is enough working together at the moment, quite honestly. with ⁓ bring back scheme. it's very, very helpful to be able to show that goods are coming back and however many tons of clothing are sold, if we're bringing back a substantial amount to reuse, recycle, et cetera, that's a great thing. But I don't think many retailers have cracked how to bring back at scale and be able to make it a meaningful kind of contribution. think that that is a big opportunity. ⁓ easier bring back schemes will probably only come to fruition through big partnerships and businesses that are able to deal with what's brought back and sort it at scale and then reuse it in a way that is efficient and truly benefiting the planet. Yeah, and to make it easier for charities, isn't it? Because from my time working in charity retail and for people that we've spoken to, Some retailers can be very generous and they say we've got this stock that's available but it's got to be picked up this afternoon and charities don't always have the resource to have those you know number of vans or large enough vans to go and pick it up or the drivers to do it at such short notice so there's a lot of goodwill to be able to want to donate that stock but operationally sometimes it is definitely where it falls down. space to store it and it's the wrong season. it's always the wrong season. learning a lot more about big considerations. yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? To see how much more support and opportunity there is. Absolutely. that really, with collaboration, collective support, lots of large commercial retailers, when partnering with charities, tend to support national charities how do think smaller charities kind of get ⁓ in ⁓ there? The relationships ⁓ ⁓ what counts. mean, just as an example, Covid, ⁓ the ⁓ local Tesco got really close to the communities in some ways, because they needed to for various reasons. People just needed help. And those community relationships such motivator ⁓ for teams in the stores and for the communities themselves. So ⁓ that ⁓ kicked some good kind of local bonds. ⁓ And as a big organization, think Tesco realize how important the community is at the heart of their purpose now. building those, making contact, having businesses that are aware and you know, customers want to support their local community. It's natural for us to have pride in the community, but also want to see people locally benefit, whether that's a school or a hospice or a children's charity, whatever. ⁓ So I think that opportunity to build those relationships, think more locally, but approach businesses that are local. And that's where I think there's a lot more energy than perhaps we all realize. Yeah, that is a brilliant point. ⁓ I completely agree. And I think, a of time ⁓ I'm... feeling in my local area that charities and those local partnerships are doing what what should ⁓ be being elsewhere. And we're that up really within the community, ⁓ which isn't great, it is an amazing sign of like solidarity being able to, ⁓ yeah, kind of. I can slowly feel like we're bringing a lot of, there's a lot of human connection being brought back, But those human connections count, don't they? know, everybody will, not but a lot of people will about, I don't know, someone that's got cancer might need a hospice or ⁓ a child ⁓ or someone who needs a food bank or, you know, in straight away you want to. get in there and do something about it, don't you? And so that energy is so powerful. And there's more we can do with that, I think. And ⁓ using those connections and setting up ways and conversations about how we can support is really important. how have you been a trustee ⁓ for Isabel I think you started as a non-exec or independent director. How long has it been? Yeah. So I became a fully fledged trustee about a ago. yeah, being involved in the retail board was really great and I could see that there was something ⁓ could be able to help with. And then I fully retired in ⁓ so I a bit more time. And the more I learned about Isabel Hospice, there was a lot more I thought, ⁓ don't know, ⁓ clinical side, the decisions that are made about the ⁓ side of the organization ⁓ the need for funding. and the services that aren't necessarily helped by government but are provided locally. There's lots of conversations going on and I just thought, actually I can make a difference on the trading board but I'd also love to give a bit more support from an overall point of view. And also it's teaching me something I didn't know about before so I'm very curious about that and got huge respect for the clinical team. So yeah, so fully fledged trustee since a month ago. and so far I'm really, really enjoying it. Yeah, it's great. Good. Was there anything that you learned or surprised you or gained more appreciation of charity retail since becoming ⁓ an independent director or trustee for Isabel? Yeah, there's a lot. I think, you know, listening in and trying to take in everything I was hearing was really important because I think I had some, preconceptions about how easy it would be to make, I don't know, so let's take an example. I ⁓ that charity shop doesn't look very inspiring. The window looks awful. If only someone was there that put together outfits in a beautiful way, then loads more people would come in and it doesn't work like that because, you know, often volunteers are coming in and they're doing a short shift. so experiencing firsthand the challenges of running a charity retail shop has taught me a lot. you know, and what we all want to do and perhaps in a commercial organization might be easier to do because people are paid employees. Doesn't work when you're in a charity and you're kind of relying on goodwill I'm learning a lot ⁓ and ⁓ it's important take off the commercial hat sometimes and think about what's the right thing to do, not necessarily the most commercially. ⁓ beneficial straight away, then that's quite a learning. yeah, there are huge differences, but charity needs to be supported more commercially. you know, having some of that skill is helpful as well. And I think, you know, we have to remember as well that trustees go on a journey, don't they, as well. So they come in and... and they soon kind of start to learn before they might question, why haven't they done that? Why don't they just do this? And actually they then realize, okay, actually it's not a lack of the team wanting to do it or not being able to come up with the ideas to execute it. It is very much about the lack of resources, the lack of funding, the lack of pure time because you are wearing so many hats at the same time. You're part therapist, part salesperson, part finance person, part visual merchandising and... You've got to all do those things nine to five apparently, but it just never fits into that. So yeah, I do think trustees, I appreciate they go on a journey learning that as well. And then suddenly they kind of change their mindset. Okay, right. What can we do with what we have got? And then as we start to scale up, what is our ambition and what resource do we need? If we do want to get to that, and if we do want to act more like a commercial retailer, what investment do we have? put in place in order to do that. it's a very fine line then because costs keep going up, but there is ambition to grow income. Ideas are great, but not always helpful delivered in the wrong way or at the wrong time. yeah, I think that's a skill in itself, isn't it? Having that empathy to know when to just shut up, listen, and watch and support. ⁓ But yeah, no better. kind of cause really, know, doing something for charities. Lovely. It really is lovely. It feels great. Oh, that is fantastic. And yeah, it's great to have people on the podcast that are feeling the joys and happiness that comes out of working for charity, working in charity retail. It's just lovely to be able to, talk and share those feelings because obviously as is any commercial or retail space, it's not always the case and it's always, yeah, there are times of great stress, but the pros definitely are way the cons in this industry. That's kind of what we've set up this podcast to talk about. So that is lovely. On the subject ⁓ of becoming trustee, have you got any advice to give to those who are working in the sector, particularly heads or directors of retail and income generation to really get the most out of their trustees their board? Yeah, ⁓ think it's a two-way thing. ⁓ Charlotte was alluding to, having a trustee that is there to offer support. not to do the job or dig into the detail, but to get the big picture and ask where can I be of service and help, is that's a good relationship. And I believe that's what we as trustees are there to do. Obviously there's a governance side, but it doesn't start there necessarily. So. Advice for the organization in terms of how to get the best from the trustees, have that informal chat, the one-to-ones, ask for time. I don't think anyone becomes a trustee thinking, ⁓ I'm never going to give 10 minutes or a coffee to, they'll be desperate to give support. And on those one-to-ones, be honest about where you need help, perhaps support with other team members, or you need to share a problem. So I think that... trustees hopefully bring a lot of experience in, I don't know, relationships, problem solving, whatever it is, roles slightly different of course. But yeah, be open and ask for help and sense check things. I think that trustees would respond really positively to that. And then kind of looking at leadership traits then, do you think, ⁓ leadership traits do you think matters most in charity retail when budgets and resources are so limited What do you matters? Yeah, good question. ⁓ I think time. ⁓ take time to listen, take time to watch what's going on and understand, you know, often if there is a volunteer community of workers, you know, they'll be, they might be turning up, but have done things the same way for many, many years and quite difficult to sort of embrace change. Whereas in a commercial organization, change is expected and maybe people have to go with the program, So I ⁓ take your time to learn, listen a bit more than you ⁓ might have done otherwise. ⁓ And ⁓ of course, at certain points, there will be need for the whole to change. But how do you take people with you? You those leadership skills about... ⁓ First of all, just being really inclusive and listening to everyone's voice and being a good listener and thinking about the group. It's not just about me ⁓ yeah, it's about how everyone shows up and our interests. ⁓ question for me. I've always got to go rogue. ⁓ So retail burnout, that is definitely a real thing and it's particularly prevalent in charity retail because of the lack of resources and budgets and everyone doing more than one job. So what advice would you give to people who are kind of approaching that kind of retail burnout or are in the throes of it? I know when you and I worked together, my sister passed away this year and you were particularly helpful in just saying. what are you going through? Tell me what you're going through. How are you? And that meant so much to me as well as Mel, the chair of the trading board. So for anyone who's kind of experiencing those kind of things whilst working in charity retail or feeling really burnt out with the pressures of ongoing costs What advice would you give people as ⁓ someone who's within the sector but has a bit more of a bird's eye view of it? Yeah, well I think the stopping, slowing down and telling someone what's going on and then allowing ⁓ to ⁓ away ⁓ ⁓ most important thing but sometimes when we're in it we don't see that as being an option ⁓ it's like any form of burnout, you you're only there because you want to do the best for everybody. But actually in doing so eventually become less, less effective until, you know, at worst you can't operate at all or can't function. So I think recognizing that you're hitting that point and opening up and finding someone that you can talk to is so important. Can only encourage that. You know, most organizations have someone that's there to talk to or some form of whistleblowing or ⁓ speaking up line. And I think, you know, I would encourage everyone to see that as a good thing. Because when you know, certain problems can't be fixed, you can't square a circle. But to have a bit of support and sometimes the right answer is a horrible answer. But you can't take that on your own. And I think trying to carry everything on one shoulders is It's tempting to do, but it's so unhealthy. yeah, dealing with grief at work is almost impossible, I think. ⁓ You're known for leading with emotional intelligence ⁓ and compassion, which even just from this conversation is completely inspiring. ⁓ And looking back on your own ⁓ leadership especially being recognized with the award, ⁓ what do you ⁓ hope your legacy in? kind of future retail aid leaders. Yeah, I don't think it's really complicated. think it's just the kinder we are to each other, the more it encourages a kinder culture. as that. I think, you know, just all those lovely skills of, yeah, listening, putting yourself in someone else's shoes, ⁓ people the way they want to be treated. They can just sound like words sometimes, but if you properly do it... makes an enormous difference. And the whole culture of a department or a division or a function or an organization can really be changed by the people at the top and then their team. then so how we are as a, know, quite quickly people learn, don't they? Learn how to be rude, but then equally can learn how to be really welcoming, really open and... encouraging and caring and look out for each other. it only brings back so much more in terms of loyalty. someone who's ⁓ kind at the start of ⁓ career, ⁓ it's really inspiring for me to hear you say that ⁓ because ⁓ like I've been working in at all types of retail since I was like 16 and and to know someone who is as successful as ⁓ leads with kindness and compassion ⁓ is makes me really excited for what is to come. ⁓ And yeah, think just really taps into humanist empathy understanding which like through. ⁓ every successful charity retail organization. Isabel Hospice really lucky to have on their trading board as a trustee. ⁓ And I know they do an excellent job as well. But yes, to ⁓ kind of answer the question on slips then ⁓ can win. But only if we do build a system that is kind of built for shared value, Collaboration between sectors is really key because reuse and are no longer nice to have. ⁓ It's at the core ⁓ of the future of ⁓ And leaders are really important to model ⁓ kind of sustainability and to empower innovation ⁓ give people the space and the time to able to think outside the box. ⁓ and drive that income. if your charity to review its strategy or its offer or income model, ⁓ or if want your leadership to use MBTI help influence your board or then we at the charity retail consultancy can help. So ⁓ MBTI provides a proven framework to help and teams understand themselves and each other better. ⁓ And that helps to lead to stronger smarter decision making ⁓ and improved results as well. So do in touch. And now it is our favourite time in podcast we like to do a charity shop shout out with our guest. So that can be someone that's inspired you, a group of people, a head of retail or a volunteer, So Jan, do you have a charity retail shout out that you'd like to give on the podcast? that's I mean, it's really difficult to almost. I have to choose Isabel Hospice because it's very close to my heart and And then if I think about all the 17 shops and the people that work in the head office and the trustees and the CEO, they're all great. But my favorite shop is the old Welling Village shop, which is the boutique, which sells some really lovely, quite high value clothes and always something special in there. So I think as an experience, go and give that a look. Can't choose an individual. It was lovely working with you, Charlotte, though. You did a lot and and shouldered a lot and did about three people's jobs at one time. So I think you deserve a shout out. ⁓ thank you, Jan. I loved my time there. And I just my team were fantastic. So I'm going to I don't normally do a shout out on the podcast, but I am going to give a shout out to Jane and Sam, the two Sam's in marketing and in retail, who I had to leave, but they are doing an incredible job. and I hear they're doing great things with the new me and good luck to the board because they really truly deserve to succeed. So I'm really excited to see what they are doing. So Jan, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been really inspiring to kind of hear your insights into circularity, leadership and the future of retail. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. You've got just such a nice, calming aura about you. Oh, thank you. Thank you. It's been lovely. It feels like just a nice... and a great chat. yeah, anytime. Thank you so much. And to everyone listening, if you have enjoyed this episode, please feel free to follow the podcast, and share it with someone who cares about sustainability and the future of retail. ⁓ And don't forget to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at the charity retail consultancy.