CSC: welcome back to the Charity Shop Chat, a podcast created to ⁓ celebrate the people and that make charity retail such a powerful and often underestimated part of our sector. And as always, this podcast brought to you in conjunction with the Charity Retail Consultancy ⁓ and Charity Retail Learning.

SAVVY: welcome back to the Charity Shop Chat, a podcast created to ⁓ people and expertise that make charity retail such a powerful and often underestimated part of our sector. And always, this podcast is brought to you in conjunction with the Charity Retail Consultancy ⁓ and Retail Learning, ⁓ organisations to supporting, strengthening and championing charity retail through insight, training and thoughtful leadership.

CSC: organisations dedicated to supporting, strengthening and championing charity retail through insight, training and thoughtful leadership, At the Charity Shop Chat, we believe a charity retail deserves to be spoken about with the same seriousness, respect and strategic depth ⁓ as any other area of retail because work happening on our shop floors and in our head change the lives of people every single day. And today's episode is one we're especially excited about because we're welcoming a company whose work has helped define how modern retail thinks about people, how they move through spaces, how they make decisions, and why they buy as well. our guests today are true authority in Retail and Shopper Marketing. Across careers they've not only led some of the UK's most retail and shopper campaigns but has fundamentally influenced retailers think about insight, environment, and behaviour, making sure that we place the shopper at the heart of everything. They have built award-winning teams, advised on some of the biggest names in the UK retail and founded an agency recognised for its ability to turn ⁓ deep of people into meaningful, ⁓ measurable And at time when charity retail faces increasing competition, pressure and scrutiny, their perspective offers something really invaluable. ⁓ A chance rethink how charity shops connect with shoppers, build trust, and maximise impact without losing the purpose of the charity itself. episode is about what charity retail can learn from the very best of commercial retail, ⁓ insight, environment and behaviour shape buying decisions ⁓ why charity retail just cannot afford to ignore them. today just welcoming guests, but we're celebrating careers that an industry, influenced generations of retail thinking and continue organizations to do better and think deeper ultimately put people first. So we're absolutely delighted to welcome to the Charity Shop Chat, Catherine and Ella from Savvy Marketing. Welcome to the podcast.

SAVVY: Welcome to the podcast. Hello. Thank you so much for having us. No problem. So let's just start with bit of an intro then. Can you talk me through kind of your role at the marketing agency and what you do?

CSC: No problem. So let's just start with bit of an intro then. Can you talk me through kind of your role at the marketing agency and what you do?

SAVVY: I'm Catherine and I'm the CEO and the founder of Savvy and I set Savvy up 20 years ago ⁓ help brands, ⁓ they retail or brands that sell within retailers to sell more. ⁓ we work now with some of the biggest brands in the world. ⁓ as well as that, we run a huge insight program where we talk to a thousand shoppers every single month to find out what they're thinking about. ⁓ then on the side of that, I also spend most weeks talking to the media about retail. ⁓ whether that's ⁓ you know, talking about what retailers are doing, what their strategies are, what shoppers are thinking. I might do that this week. been, I've done that for the ITV news. I might be on radio five talking about something that's happened that's immediate news. So, ⁓ you know, I'd like think that we've got a fairly strong grasp of what happens in retail. ⁓ My background ⁓ retail through and through. ⁓ a real passion for it. And at Savvy every day what we try and do is help people to run their businesses that little bit better. Yeah, I'm Ella. I'm an insight and planning executive here at Savvy and I've been here for three years this year, I think. And like Catherine mentioned, I work in our insight program, which is basically we're trying to figure out the why behind all shopper decisions. We're trying to figure out shopper psychology. Why are you interested in that? Why would you pick that over something else? A large part of that is, as Catherine mentioned, our Savvy shopper panel. ask a thousand shoppers every month their interests, their opinions, where they shop, what they want from their shops. brands and the retailers. ⁓ conjunction with that, really big part of my job is looking at industry-wide trends as well. So in relation to charity shops, we've talked a lot about sustainability, a new generational interest in secondhand shopping through Gen Z shoppers, ⁓ value driven insights. So shoppers really expecting things from their brands, you know, being sustainable isn't really a perk, it's an expectation now, I'd say. So together we kind of talk a lot about what motivates a shopper and what brands can do to really connect with their shopper audiences.

CSC: motivates a shopper and what brands can do to really connect with their shopper audiences? Fantastic. And yeah, it's really exciting. That question of why is kind of why we're here today and why we record these podcasts to get more depth from people who in marketing, but also shop managers, volunteers. It's just really exciting to get kind of that. whole understanding of what people are thinking when they walk into a shop So, in kind of in that vein then, when you walk into a shop, subconsciously noticing first? Well, the thing I would say before answering that is shopping is for everybody, isn't it?

SAVVY: subconsciously noticing first. Well, mean, the thing I would say before answering that is shopping is for everybody, isn't it? So, you you're talking to us today about it, but everybody's got an opinion on shopping. so everybody's opinion is valid. And one of the things I know is that everybody wants to talk to me about how they do the shopping, where they do it, why they do it. And it's a passion, you know, we're a nation of shopkeepers in the UK and it's a real passion, isn't it, in what we do. So if I was really honest with you, when I walk into a shop, don't walking with my savvy head on. I walk in as a shopper and that's the best way to always look at shops, know, is to see what you're going to experience and... Depending on why you're there will be a different reason of how you look at it So the most important thing is your mission. Why are you there in the first place? So the mission might be I'm on holiday and I'm just gonna meander around aimlessly and I might buy something or it could be I've got to cook tea for three children in an hour. I've got 15 pounds What am I gonna do? but all of us look at shops ⁓ to either find something that we need, be inspired, but ultimately it's the job of the retailer to sell me something, no matter what I went in there for. And that's really important. So I think there are sort of two ways of looking at it is one, how do I look at it as a shopper? And then how do we look at it as a business is quite different because we're looking at shopper behaviors. But essentially, it's the same, isn't it? We're just trying to work out what people are there for and what they want to do. and I think as well. Working behind a lot of the campaigns that you see on shelves. I think what's always interesting to me now is now what stops me in my tracks So if I am going to the shops to grab milk bread or I'm in there for less than 10 minutes Is there anything now that surprises me interests me and genuinely makes me stop and look, you know, especially with a younger shopper audience Let's say a Gen Z shopper Brands have less than three seconds to capture their attention when they're in store potentially even less sometimes So what is it that is standing out to you and almost? derailing you from that mission. Cause that's quite a powerful thing to be able to do from a brand perspective. But if you don't look at that like a shopper and you looked at it as some kind of guru or retail expert or yeah, like you're saying, some, some brand genius, that's the, the error lots of, lots of brands make and lots of retailers make is they forget you're talking to. So always have to think about your customer. The customer's number one always in every ⁓ transaction, they're a Gen Z shopper, whether they're, ⁓ you know, a harassment with a push chair, whether it's somebody who's got loads of time to dwell, it doesn't matter. But if you forget to look at it through the shopper's eyes, then your activation will fall flat. And I have a really big obsession, which is what is your objective? So whenever you're doing something, why are you doing it? What is the objective? And if you, when you're looking at retail, you think about what your objective is, and is that objective reasonable? shopper do it, that's a really good starting point. Yeah, totally, because you can talk about shop psychology till the cows come home, but at the same time, are you tired? Is it after work? Is there massive overhead lighting? Is it really busy? And like those reality factors are actually going to be way more important than anything cooked up inside a meeting room with people that haven't been in a Tesco in 20 years.

CSC: Yeah, yeah, no completely agree know, and you can see it a lot, can't you, when you're in retail yourself and you think, well, that doesn't really make any sense to me. Well, you just walk past it. That's the sort of cardinal sin of just walking past things. So yeah, where do you start and what are you shopping? So we're talking about going into shops. A lot of the time, we don't go into shops. We look at things on our mobile phone.

SAVVY: You know, and you can see it a lot, can't you, when you're in retail yourself and you think, well, that doesn't really make any sense to me. Or you just walk past it. That's the sort of cardinal sin of just walking past things. So yeah, mean, where do you start and what is shopping? So we're talking about going into shops. A lot of the time we don't go into shops. We look at things on our mobile phone. We watch a TikTok film. and we buy from that. So I think that's the other the massive change is the way in which we transact and buy isn't just in shops anymore. So everything's a shopping opportunity, which is very exciting. But it means you've got to adapt your thinking a bit.

CSC: We watch TikTok film and we buy from that. So I think that's the other massive change is the way in which we transact and buy isn't just in shops anymore. everything's a shopping opportunity, which is very exciting. Yeah, absolutely. But it means you've got to adapt your thinking a And that is the thing I think in the not for profit sector, we have to be able to pivot and be agile and change how we're doing things. And on that note, kind of with shopper insight, In my experience, we haven't used it as much as we could do in charity shops. So in fundraising, they rely on their CRM to really steward donors, and that's a really important part of their journey to be able to maximize income. Whereas with charity shops, because we don't necessarily have a CRM with our EPOS systems, we literally only use information that we capture from donors signing up to gift aid, and they're not also necessarily customers. They might come in and donate their goods, but they might not actually shop from us. So from your experience and your expertise, how can charity shops use shopper insight and is there a budget friendly way to do this? I've done focus groups when I used to work for my charity and I've done exit interviews at the shops. But what's your opinion on how we can get more insight for charity shops to make some more informed decision making around their marketing and how to sell to their customers?

SAVVY: I think first of all, you have to be really careful about the formality of all of this. yes, there are times, aren't there, where we do very formal work on how people walk around shops and how people look at products and we do a lot of work in that space. And, ⁓ know, ⁓ look at retailers, let's look at it that way. So Tesco ⁓ an enormous amount of insight into the people that shop with them. ⁓ most of us shop in a Tesco every single week across the UK and they have billions of data points that they can analyze and analyze and analyze and that makes them make certain decisions yeah but then there are other retailers who don't have a loyalty scheme who ⁓ don't count who comes in and out of the shops but they really understand that customer very, well. So Søstrene Grene is a good example, isn't it? A big retailer that has rocketed in the UK ⁓ because he understands its ⁓ ⁓ watches what they do and it changes its its range, the way things are laid out to suit them. So ⁓ don't always of insight as it's this big thing we have to get. ⁓ The retailers in the ⁓ started off with one shop and they understood customers. ⁓ start by talking to your customers, asking them what they want, watching what they do, that's a really... Pretty good start, I think, don't Yeah, I completely agree. I guess ⁓ that complicates that even more with charity shops is where are they? ⁓ when you have kind of the White Rose Centre and City Centre Leeds, you've got student populations, you've got kind of young professionals. ⁓ I'm also thinking about the British Art Foundation down Egem High Street and in my parents' house, which is decidedly an over 60s kind of market. ⁓ ⁓ exactly. So then also developing a kind of insight strategy for an entire UK base is actually not

CSC: Yeah, not always the same audience Exactly, so then also developing a kind of insight strategy for an entire UK place is actually not useful because you need to kind of focus almost on locality of who are your shoppers, like Hattie said, what are they interested in, are there things that you can trial in store to kind of keep track of and see success rate in that way as opposed to maybe dialing those numbers that...

SAVVY: useful because you need to kind of focus almost locality of who are your shoppers. Like Katrin said, like what are they interested in? Are there things that you can trial in store to kind of keep track of and see a success rate in that way, as opposed to maybe dialing loads of numbers that won't actually serve you as well as it would a massive. Yeah. And I'd go back to what's your objective of the insight. Why do you want it? for me in the charity sector, there are two significant parts. for most charity retail shops. So there's the donations that you get and then there are people that buy the products that you put on shelf. I donate regularly to the charity section and I am amazed and appalled in equal measure ⁓ how all the data that I provide for gift aid ⁓ is never really utilized effectively by the charity. ⁓ also not asked very much. when I go in and I'm lucky if they accept my donation in the first place and ⁓ I think that's one of the biggest issues that the sector has got at the moment about this refusal to accept donations is a huge long-term strategic issue. We'll perhaps come back to that because as you can see it's a big bugbear but when I go in I've bothered to go, I've entered into the shop, I've packed all my goods up I'm feeling really positive about going and doing something in my own tiny way that is a good thing to do. I haven't sold it on Vinted, I haven't put it on Depot, know what I mean? Aren't I great? I've cleared my house out of all my rubbish and I've taken it to a charity shop, but it's good quality stuff. And then when I get there, they always ask me about gift aid. I feel all of that in. But you've got me. I'm standing there. You could ask me loads of things. You could find out about my postcode. Simple thing is to write down everybody's postcode on a pad and then you can map out where people come from to you. There's loads of easy things you could do. But I think... We're really embarrassed about asking for information. And yet as consumers, are willing to give information up for free every hour of every day. hugely. I mean, when we, it's really interesting because when we talk a lot about kind of charity competition, it's often things like she and you know, which are obviously highly unethical, you know, but also as Catherine says, like we're very willing to give our very personal data away because there's no person in front of us. It's kind of an invisible process. But as Catherine says, if you're you have that kind of dopamine effect of I'm donating and clearing out my house. The likelihood of you being in a positive mindset to then sit down for another two minutes to fill out a small survey of this is what I am donating, this is what I'd like to see more of. And also I would say another thing about kind of going into charity shops in the moment is price points. It's very interesting going into charity shops at the moment and seeing she and clothing priced for eight pound, nine pound a pop. And obviously you have lots of charity shops. to inflate their pricing to keep competitive measures but even asking in that kind of small survey and that five minute window how much would you expect to pay for some of this stuff you know how much money you planning to spend while you're in here because... Or accept that the donator may never ever buy anything from charity shop yeah so what you need to know from from me may be different to what you need to know from Ella who's buying so I think it's that thing about what's your objective for somebody to donate how do I choose you charity shop brand A So how do I choose British Heart Foundation over Sue Rider or ⁓ you know here it could be Maggie's or something else. So how do I do that? ⁓ I think that's critically important in terms of the behaviour you want to drive for a donator. Donator of things we're talking about rather than money. And then the other side of it is the people who come into the shop to buy, what do you want to know about them? And you can gather as much insight as you want, would be my advice to charities, but don't bother if you're not going to use it. She's going to sound a bit harsh, but what's the point? It's been, if you've got loads of data sitting somewhere, you're not going to use it, but you might, it might inform, you know, the postcode collection thing could be, you could collect a postcode from everybody when they come to the till, and it might inform your property development strategy about where do we need to put a shop. because we're getting all these people who are coming in from WF6. And actually, that's really strange because we're on the other side of town, we're in WF1. So, you know, again, it's what is your objective, how do you do it? And don't try and be what big retailers are. I think that's one of the problems that charity retail falls into because it's full of brilliant people. ⁓ But it's different, it offers a different career path, a different offer. And I think if you try and be too similar to the retailers and do the things they do, steal stuff by all means, steal the good bits. But don't try and be the same as them. And they'll have insight teams of plenty. ⁓ And also, know, ⁓ Katherine's right. We have so many meetings where... there can be a point of too much insight. there's definitely been times where it's like we've spent two grand finding out this particular thing on Tuesday afternoons for female shoppers. And I'm like, great, what would you like us to do with that? But also, ⁓ I think insight's a really interesting because while it's very important to study shop psychology, ⁓ the basic facts remain the same lot of the time. Shoppers want convenience, they want affordability, ⁓ and they want to have enough to make their own decisions. That basically stays the same across most

CSC: And also, know, Catherine's right, we have so many meetings where there can be a point of too much insight. Yeah. but there's definitely been times where it's like we've spent two grand finding out this particular thing. Yeah. She's done afternoons for female shoppers. And I'm like, great, what would you like us to do? Yeah. But also, I think insight's a really interesting one because while it's very important to study

SAVVY: shopper groups and across most years no matter what you know the kind of circumstances are and retaining onto those is never a bad thing. and convenience is the master insight of all retail insights so the more convenient you are and in the charitable sector that couldn't be more true. Think about it is there somewhere for me to drop my stuff off ⁓ you know is it for me to get there are ⁓ there other places that easier to get to that are more convenient because if there are three other charity shops before I get to the fourth, I'll have spent my money before I get there. So convenience is really important. So that's why property strategy is important. And then also, what does that look like? So I want some Christmas cards to support my local charity. I don't really want to have to go and hunt them down. I want them to be conveniently located, possibly by the till so I can get in and out as an example. I think, you know, the use of insights is important. I think having a thoughtful strategy is important but for charity shops it's got to be about what is your purpose, what are you trying to achieve and what are your shops for? Then you can overlay it with insight. there's so much to unpack now already, just that ⁓ answer. First all, I'm glad that you're just being asked about Gift Aid for a start because I do so many mystery shops for charities and it is...

CSC: then ⁓ you line of actually you're making us miss. you know, free sales by just not asking. So I do think part of, you know, asking for insights and data will be about how do we work with our volunteers to get comfortable in asking those questions. Because gifted questions particularly have sensitive questions about are you a UK taxpayer? They get really funny about that and they get really worried about asking for those kind of things. So we have to be able to do that in mind as well. And yes, absolutely with a donor, there's always two reasons why they donate to that charity shop. It's parking number one, whenever we look at property is always is their parking nearby? Does it have its own car park? Does it have free parking? We want them to come to us or otherwise they're usually connected to the cause and they want to give back to someone who's helped them or their loved ones. And that's the big problem for me, if you then say, you don't know why somebody's turned up in your charity shop with a donation, you? So you don't know whether I've just taken the last bag ⁓ of clothes from...

SAVVY: And that's the big problem for me if you then say you don't know why somebody's turned up in your charity shop with a donation do you? So I've just taken the last bag. of clothes from my mum's and she's just passed away. ⁓ you don't know. There should be no judgment in retail, whoever you are. ⁓ in charity retail, I think that's really hard. And I'll tell you the story, ⁓ not just me. ⁓ Because I work in retail, lots of people talk to me about their shopping experiences, all sorts of shopping experiences. And I went of all places last year, was very lucky. A friend took me to the Chelsea Flower Show and I met a lady, the Chelsea Flower Show, who told me about donating her mother's wardrobe to a local charity. And she rang them and checked they were open and that they would accept. them and she took them to the shop and some of them were amazing things like she was a Dior model so can you imagine if you're a charity you'd be beside yourself wouldn't you? stuff get it all yeah get it on eBay quick. Anyway she took it and the person took it off her and threw it on the floor in a corner and she's when she told me this story this woman cried I've never met her before it was the saddest story and and and that has really taught me about the importance of charitable giving why it matters and

CSC: And she rang them and she checked they were open and that they would accept them. And she took them to the shop and some of them were amazing things like that. She was a dear model. So can you imagine? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Give it to me. she took it and the person took it off and threw it on the floor in a corner. And she's, when she told me this story, this woman cried. I've never met her before. ⁓ that has really taught me about the importance of charitable giving.

SAVVY: Even if your warehouse is full, what's your option? What's the reason that you cannot take the donation from me today? Because the other side, the less emotional side, is you turn up, there's a sign saying no donations today, you go somewhere else. ⁓ And then you always pass on a good experience. or a bad experience, depends, doesn't it? If you say, don't go there, but go there instead. So I think that's a really interesting challenge, particularly at a time when everybody's flogging their stuff on Vinted. ⁓

CSC: You know, you always pass on a good experience or a bad experience, depends, doesn't it? If you say, don't go there, but go there instead. So think that's a really interesting challenge, particularly at everybody's vlogging this stuff on Viz? It's a big, it's a really big challenge for charity retailers that I don't know how many conversations I've had with my area managers or my shop managers about do we turn away donations? And my automatic answer is please do not turn away donations. But also as a head of retail, I've got a duty of care to keep my shop staff and volunteers safe and it's because they have no room out the back and you quite often have a back room that's as big as the broom cupboard and yet they've got to keep taking ⁓ donations not only because they need to churn the stock on the shop floor You don't want to annoy a donor that has come specifically to your shop. I always said, if you turn them away that day, they're unlikely to come back another day. So you've lost a regular donor potentially. But I understand your pens are all full in the back. No, it's really difficult. It's really difficult, but I think it's about finding solutions to that. And it's also how you talk to that donor about what is that. If you're just going, no, we can't take them today.

SAVVY: you've lost a regular donor potentially but I understand your pens are all full in the back. No it's really difficult it's really difficult but I think it's about finding solutions to that. What are the solutions to it? ⁓

CSC: always said explain what's going on you know even if you have to go you know have a look honestly it's so full to the brim I'm so sorry you know please do come back another day we'd be so grateful your donations it's how you talk to that donor about what you're telling them the way. And it's about what your messages are on your website. So if I'm looking to see where's my local cancer related charity shop, because my family members don't.

SAVVY: And it's about what your messages on your website? So if I'm looking to see where's my local ⁓ cancer related charity shop, because my family member's died of cancer and I want to go there, make it really clear about ring first, check that we would love your donations. It's about your language, it's about your tone and it's about how you do that. And also about... If you're in a particular area and you've got more than ⁓ one shop, you might got six or seven shops, make sure people start to understand that's the big one where they always take the donations no matter what. And it's free parking to your point. It's super convenient. And then you'll pass that on. I think, look. I'm not dealing with the general public every day, so it's very easy for me to say, and I'm telling you about this particular experience. But I think that's where insight is needed. How does it make me feel? What does that do? That's a really big piece of insight, which is one of the biggest challenges for donors is things being accepted. What could we do about that? obviously I don't want go on about donations for the entire podcast and my stories of charity, but that's a really useful use of insight that can be shared across the sector to say, we've all got similar problems, how might we resolve it?

CSC: Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, we like to talk about this podcast, don't we, about how charity shops that are on the high street are one of the last spaces to be like that can be a shop or it can also be ⁓ a hub. It can be one of the only spaces where someone might have a conversation that whole week. ⁓ So it is a very personal and ⁓ important ⁓ And one of my family members passed away recently as well And my mum had decided this one shop that she wanted to take all of those items to. ⁓ And that was just from that one connection that she had with ⁓ woman that worked there. And she ⁓ a complete like human connection, ⁓ which is what these spaces have always been led. They're about human connection. And ⁓ there's so much, there is so much to be done in terms of like ⁓ into marketing. like, I think. where charities really differ and the exciting part about it all, working charity retail, is that like human connection often takes.

SAVVY: the exciting part about your work in charity retail is that human connection. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, that human connection about, you know, the place that charity shops can have and, you know, you'll get positive, again, when I'm talking about retail, I positive negatives about charity shops, but it's interesting, I went to a part of Leeds yesterday, which is a more... economically challenged area of Leeds and I went into it, it was a chain coffee shop and you would have thought, oh right, okay. And I went in, it was the most welcoming place I've been to in a long time. People were lovely. And in this coffee shop, there was the staff were fantastic. There was a guy with some... disability that was working in there. He was lovely. I was talking to him, being very supportive of him. And in the middle of this coffee shop, there was a rail of clothes and it was money. They'd raised something ridiculous, like 8,000 pounds for a charity selling baby clothes. And it felt as though this was a community hub. didn't feel like, it's one of the biggest, big, I won't say, well, I shouldn't, it was Costa. It was absolutely amazing. And I said to them in this story yesterday, it's fantastic. And I thought, Actually, if you could have a charity brand where you could go and have a coffee shop and there's something in it rather than it being a charity shop with coffee in it, a coffee shop, isn't that an interesting way to think about how you could extend your offer in high streets? give some kind of community efforts because we know that loneliness is a huge issue ⁓ and that going to local shops is one way of meeting people, isn't it? Yeah, no, absolutely. It's funny because while we're having this conversation, while kind of I'm on the agency side, mentioned just before we started recording that my brother works in a charity shop. He's a retail assistant in a charity shop. And I'd say at least three times a week he will get a phone call of someone just wanting a chat. They're not ringing to donate. They're not ringing out of curiosity, but they're ringing because there is an understanding that a charity shop will be more sympathetic to take that phone call, to have that conversation. And you know, think it's something that Catherine said earlier that really brings true what we're talking about. You don't need to be a retailer. You don't need to be a Morrisons. The superpower of it is that kind of third place feeling that you get when you walk into a charity shop being involved in greater purpose. So like with the baby clothes, driving Costa, is there a way of bringing that into your branches? Is there a way of making it feel like you are working towards a specific target that benefits your local community? The kind of dopamine effect that shoppers will get from that is hugely persuasive for donations but also purpose is really really important especially in an age at the moment where there's a real disillusionment with big brands I think massively there's a real interest in indie sustainable brands that's your superpower your superpower is you are not Morrison's or Tesco use it and utilize it to connect with your community

CSC: But also purpose is really, really important, especially in an age at the moment where there's a real disillusionment with big brands, I think, massively. Real interest in indie sustainable brands. That's your superpower. Your superpower is you are not Morrison's or Tesco. Use it and utilise it to connect with your community. Absolutely. And like we are in the charity retail sector, so lucky that we have that uniqueness that has always been there. We've always been that kind of connection. within that high street, you say, like next to, in between the Tescos and the Morissons, there's a British Heart Foundation that go in and actually have a conversation with someone and you can, you're guaranteed to see or find something that you didn't know existed before. all of that connects with the circular economy and sustainability and that is at the back of your mind or my mind anyway. Obviously every shopper is different, but in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, yeah, I... whatever I buy now, it will make you feel good. ⁓ Regardless of the cause or how much you're spending, you're still doing something good for the planet. ⁓ still ⁓ your local community or you're helping a national charity. ⁓ And so, it's so important that we have this here right in front of us ⁓ we need to utilise that as much as possible. ⁓ whilst we're becoming more more disconnected as a society. ⁓ Having that connection that ⁓ I've worked in various different shops the few years ⁓ and I get so much joy personally from having these conversations with people and knowing that like people are coming into my space to form a connection with me and have a conversation and ⁓ I really enjoy that and they get a lot out it and so yeah. We need to use utilize that more. You're absolutely right. talking about mission versus margin then. So ⁓ one the debates that I always talk about with that I've worked with or just peers in the sector. ⁓ Do you talk about your charity's ⁓ overall mission ⁓ your shop? you know, when you consider hospices that make up the large majority of what the 11,000 shops in the UK, you know, talking about death and dying doesn't naturally relate sometimes to shopping. And so I know some charities that have lots of branding about what the charity is about. And I know some charities that don't touch it with a barge pole because they're concentrated on the shopper experience. What do you think is the answer? And do you think it's it's localized to what your charity is, your demographic? Talk me through kind of the pros and cons and your thoughts about that. Oh, every retailer wants to have a mission and a purpose. Yeah. And so the thing I think is interesting, if you were a big box retailer or an indie retailer, you'd be saying to us, well, how do I demonstrate what my mission and my purpose is? know, and they were

SAVVY: Talking about death and dying doesn't naturally relate sometimes to shopping. And so I know some charities that have lots of branding about what the charity is about. And I know some charities that don't touch it with a badge pole because they're concentrating on the shopper experience. What do you think is the answer? And do you think it's localized to what your charity is, your demographic? Talk me through pros and cons and your thoughts about that. Well, every retailer... wants to have a mission and a purpose. Yeah. And so the thing I think is interesting, if you were a big box retailer or an indie retailer, you'd be saying to us, how do I demonstrate what my mission and my purpose is? You know, and they would spend a lot of time and a lot of naval gazing doing that. And then they would make sure they communicated that really extensively to their customer. I mean, you've talked about Gen Z's, millennials, you know, and you'll see stuff in clothing shops about sustainability. and loads of stuff, right? Yeah, and we what we're seeing a lot as well with younger shopper groups is a real lack of trust with their retailers. So, you know, it's really I'm thinking about ⁓ big fashion retailers that have this is a recycled cotton line. Six months later, I see it in the news and it's been found out to be a greenwashing claim by ASA. So I think that idea of trust and also kind of expectation, I think with that shopper group, if your brand is sustainable, as it should be. There aren't going be any gold stars for you for doing that. You pay your employees a fair wage, as you should be. So I think there's something there for a charity shop with that very keen, very idealistic and very value-driven audience of going exactly where your money is going and know exactly who it is going to. And I think that's really invaluable at the moment. So yeah, so the point is, big retailers, or what we'd call high street retailers, they'll kill themselves to try and find one. Every single charity retail shop in the country has got an inbuilt mission and purpose. Its purpose is to raise funds for the charity which it is the face of all. So of course it's easier to talk about certain charities and the level of work they do. You know, so if you have the RSPCA you can have pictures of fluffy cats and kittens and dogs in your shop, can't you? What I would say is you can spend loads of time advertising and lots of ⁓ ways of trying to get to your customer, but if you've got a physical shop or an online shop, you've got eyeballs. So not talking about what your purpose is, it's a totally lost opportunity. So if I have to ask in a charity shop, could you tell me please what you do? That seems to me to be a bit counterintuitive in terms of the rules of retail, which would be, I'm going to tell you who I am, I'm going to put my best foot forward. Now, there are tricky subjects that some of the charities support, but... There are also, ⁓ hospices is a great example. Hospices play a really critically important part in society and in local societies. ⁓ And they can talk about what they've done in your town, in your village. There are lots of ways that you can execute it so it's retail appropriate, which is, you know, I'm coming in with my three year old and I want to know about what you do, but also make sure there are information points if I want to find out more. So could you tell me a bit more about what you do? and why that is beneficial for me here in Barnsley. Could you tell me why? And I think the charities that do it really well do show that local benefit. Even if they're a national charity, show me why here. What am I doing to help the people I live with? know, the Tesco slogan, every little helps, should be what charities think about. Every little helps. If I help you here in your shop, it ladders back up to the top. So I don't think there's any debate about it. I mean, I've got an extreme view on that. If choose not to tell people who you are, it's a massive issue. If you're a suicide prevention charity and I go in and to your point, I'm actually going into the shop because I want somebody to talk to because I'm going through a bit of a crisis. Don't hide the fact that what you are is a signal to say, look, actually, we're helping people. We're supporting you. know, it's an extreme example, isn't it? But I think it's a really good thing to demonstrate who you are and be really proud of it. volunteers because there is a difference in the retail staff in a charity shop ⁓ and it's a positive difference which is they have chosen to come and volunteer for you. So if they've chosen to do that, give them all the help you possibly can to talk about your charity in the way you choose to. Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I think as well, it's a very co-beneficial relationship between not only from the worker to the shopper to the shopper to the worker. And I see a lot of headlines and get a lot of feedback from friends and family that work in charity shops that the way that shoppers would treat a retail associate in a H &M versus British Heart Foundation, very different. So, you know, at the moment there's been loads of headlines about charity shops are not tips. They are not drop points for... No, they are not. They are not. They are not for your... Yeah. And, know, it's funny speaking, my brother, he'll have people with bags of stuff who walk straight past him at the till and just shove it at the back, knowing it's broken. No, it's dirty. No, it's unsellable. And so I think that idea of pride and purpose can go both ways because I think for a lot of shoppers that walk into charity shop and see it as

CSC: retail associate in H ⁓ versus British Heart Foundation very different so you know at the moment there's been loads of headlines about charity shops are not tips they are not drop points for... No they are not! They are treated though! And you know it's funny speaking my brother he'll have people with bags of stuff who'll walk straight past him at the till and just shove it at the back knowing it's broken

SAVVY: serving them, you almost need to remind them about what bigger purpose they're being part of. Is there a way of having them respect their donations more and respect those workers more? I think there's a real kind of disconnect between who's behind the till and who's in front of it. And that kind of idea, I think, improves relationships both ways. That's a super good point because, the challenge around retail workers and the way that they're being treated, violence towards retail workers, unfortunately, will happen in charity shops too. ⁓ So think again reminding people of the purpose and why you're there is a really good thing. Ella is completely, you know, entrenched in what younger shoppers think, she does a lot of research in this area. And that need for purpose and need for connections critical. So if you, if you don't give it, you're losing an opportunity. But I also think it does, it does sort of say, this is how we need you to behave. We are not the same. We are not a multi-billion shop making masses of money and profits. We are here to help you and your community. massively. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point.

CSC: ⁓ I completely agree. I've always said we will always talk about what our mission is in our charity shop. So when I worked for a hospice, we used to have posters saying, thank you, Bishop Stortford, your purchases in this shop has contributed to, I don't 2000 nursing hours this year to support patients and their loved ones and I've always been a massive advocate of that not just for the customers but the staff and volunteers as well so they know all of their hard work has contributed to that and it gives them that meaning doesn't it.

SAVVY: completely agree I've always said we will always talk about what our mission is in our charity shop so when I work for a hospice we used to have posters saying and thank you Bishop's Dawood your purchases in this shop has contributed to 2000 nursing hours this year to support patients and their loved ones and I've always been a massive advocate of that not just for the customers but the staff and volunteers as well so they know all of their hard work has contributed to that and it gives them that meaning doesn't it? Yeah. And also, don't you think though, Shaila, as well, that's an opportunity if you want to get a message out and you want to campaign. So very interesting at the minute, isn't it, as we're in middle of the assisted dying debate, which I think the hospice movement have got a really big part to play in and a big voice. So, you know, get your point of view across at the right time, your shops. or another channel. If you look at shops as a channel of communication, it's quite interesting. The shops are the most public facing arm of a charity. They're the ones that are be interacting with the public more often. So actually if you want ambassadors or people to signpost the services that your charity provides, that's what's going to be able to happen in your shop. It's almost free advertising isn't it? Yeah it is.

CSC: If you want to get a message out and you want to campaign, very interesting the minute isn't it? Oh gosh, yeah, massive topic, yeah Absolutely, yeah And the shops are the most public facing arm of a charity they're the ones that going to be interacting with the public more often. actually if you want ambassadors or people to signpost the services that your charity provides, that's what's going to be able to happen in your shop. It's almost free advertising, isn't it? Okay, so going back to the point, you know, it kind of relates back to the point of turning away donations, but also charity shops being treated as dumps. Because the fact is you get overloaded with donations and then actually a lot of charities, only 30 % of the stock that they get donated is actually sellable. And we've got to pay money to get rid of that. So, you know, as a small charity, we used to pay 35,000 to 40,000 pounds in just waste. removal whilst also having to turn away donations that are potentially really good, but because they can't store it safely in the back room. as a marketing team, bearing in mind, know, charities have very limited marketing teams. ⁓ How do we talk to our donors being thoughtful in what they donate ⁓ and the fact that it costs us money? Because there was some reservations from leadership teams of, we don't really want to put that financial amount out there.

SAVVY: it's about campaigning ⁓ and ⁓ that's about the whole sector being together and the charity retail sector ⁓ talking about that and doing campaigns about it ⁓ at the right time of year. So January is the right time of to do it ⁓ so ⁓ know told you I do a lot of media stuff. ⁓ having people like me talking about it, I'd be getting the sector to be saying, you know, this week more Christmas presents will be returned. Every year I get asked to do a story about return Christmas presents. This year, this week, more Christmas presents will be returned. As a sector, that's worth however many million pounds. But do you know that it costs as a sector this many million pounds to get rid of the rubbish and the storage? And you do it as campaigns and you have to keep doing that time and time again, ⁓ maybe four points in the year. And I think that's the only way you can do it. I think if you do it as an individual charity, especially if you're a smaller charity, yes, the trustees will be concerned about that. get it. So you have to sort of ladder up your costs. and say as a total sector, this is what it's doing. And think about who might be the voices, who are the influencers you can use for that? How do you use TikTok to do that as an example? TikTok's got huge reach, hasn't it? So if you could talk about it and you could show some of the rubbish, But you can talk about that and you start to have a of a multi-layered approach to it. You've got some chance that people will start to listen. And also I think, I don't know what you think, for younger shoppers, they want good stuff to turn up in charity shops. So if you could start to influence them, that'd be really powerful. Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I think there's a real keenness like we've talked about to make kind of good. value-driven purchases, but also thrifting is a cool thing to do, especially in the last kind of eight years or so. I think what we're talking about is a very circular relationship between volunteers, ⁓ shoppers and donatees. All can be different, but actually everyone impacts each ⁓ I think influencers is a really great shout. It's a really great shout. I've seen so many TikTok videos over the Christmas period of going, this is how I donate to this website or this is how I package my goods for this. So things like world of books, vintage, depop, is there an ability to do that for your local charity shop? This is what we need or this is how we'd like it to be, you know, kind of packaged and delivered to us. So we did a massive kind of pre-Christmas. out in our tiny one-bed flat, me and my fiance. rang local charity shops saying, hi, this is what I've got. And this very, very forthright woman, which I completely appreciated on the phone went, I don't want that. I don't want that. And that's exactly what I want. And if you're going to bring it, bring it in labeled bags. I am already willing to donate it. I am fine to be given direction. And if anything, it's helpful. It is genuinely helpful. Having those kind of TikTok videos instructing you kind of what is the best. almost code of conduct, I don't think is a bad thing. we're talking, even at the beginning of this conversation, we were talking about volunteers feeling empowered enough to give those directives, give the directives. You've already got people willing to work with you. They'd be fine to do one or two Yeah. And you could do it locally, couldn't you? You could say if you were a local charity shop, you could say, we are this month. You could do it by month. Yeah. You know, in May, we're looking for teddy bears. That's what we're looking for because we're to do a massive teddy bear raffle. ⁓ You know, in August, we're looking for kitchen stuff and so without saying we don't want other things what you're just doing is you're raising it and it then gives you an opportunity to a conversation about you know we have some brilliant donators you always focus on the good this is a good donation looks like yeah massively and then also ⁓ from a media perspective really highlighting some of the key things you've got donated ⁓ the feeling finding something good in a charity shop unparalleled like when you see like a really really good brand so there's not a kind of code of conduct but there also is an ability to go because of your amazing donations this month we have you know Dior hopefully or we have Phase Eight or we have Adidas and I think almost showreeling that absolutely absolutely should. I saw a really good campaign not it wasn't charity shop sale it was Leeds City Council ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ they did a call for coats So they said what coats have you got? Because it's cold and there are people who are living outside and you know and have and and children who haven't got coats to go to school And he's really simple isn't it so you think all right, okay? So that's I know what I'm going to give is going to go to somebody so I'm going to go upstairs I'm going to go through the cupboards and find those coats that have been flung at the back that are aged seven and my children are now 26 and left home 10 years ago whatever I'm going to get those out I'm going to bag them up and there were really easy instructions about where to leave them. Now that is a simple call to action that gets you what you want. think you kind of so there's what do do at the top as a whole charity retail sector then what do do locally there are some really interesting learnings and social media will help with lot of charities have fantastic local people who are involved with them, ⁓ who actually do have a of influence. ⁓ So might not be, you know, somebody like, I'm to think of a great influencer. What's the washing powder woman ⁓ Mrs. Mrs. Hitch. There you go. It might not be Mrs. Hitch. But you might have somebody who actually has 10,000 followers on Instagram. that will have a huge impact in a local area. So I think that's the other thing charities need to think about is about who helps us and who may not be in the charity retail aspect, but it may be back in the charity. Like, ⁓ yeah, well, we could use them to do that. would be really helpful. Yeah, I think as well speaking from like a localised perspective, it's exactly what Katherine said is who are your local influences? So where I live, there's three or four student accommodation blocks. Every year without fail, July, the bins are full of perfectly good plates, perfectly good cutlery. I haven't gone anywhere. Is there a level of almost Brown planning that you do of going in the run-up to all these students moving out if you a charity shop near a student area, give us your unwanted goods. We are providing you with a solution. So they did that in Headingley last year and it was significantly different for everybody I think. But they're the things aren't they about if you've got a charity shop in the biggest student areas of the country so in Manchester, Newcastle, Leeds, know where Bristol where they are. What is your strategy for that for collection of really good goods. So Sabi works across digital innovation as well as physical retail. Where do you see charity retail lagging? ⁓

CSC: So Savvy works across digital innovation as well as physical retail. Where do you see charity retail lagging and it surprisingly advanced? I think charity, lot of charities are ready and desperate to go to become more digital. You would be losing that connection that we are talking about with bricks and mortar shops where you have that human connection, which really does create quite a lot. But yeah, how do you see charities going in that vein?

SAVVY: You will lose some connection but the counter to that is you'll also enter a broader market. So there are lots of people who won't go to charity shops or can't access them. There'll be a number of reasons, won't there? But everybody's got a phone in the pocket with the internet on where they can buy anything at any time or donate money at any time. So I think having a really clever and not complicated, sometimes when people say digital strategy it sounds a bit fancy, but just being able to access the charity at every single point that you can is a sensible way forward. So I don't think you need to spend loads of money building complex apps and websites, but I do think you need to think about how to use QR codes, for example, as a quick and easy way of donating. One of the best things I've ever seen is in a hospice as you leave, there's a QR code and it says, 37 pound 50 today. pays for so many nursing hours or a bed or whatever and if you've got a relative stay and you just and you can afford it you just swipe your phone and off you go and you've paid for the day. it's ⁓ for that ⁓ are no hassle ⁓ you it's nothing so to tap your phone on something and pay for something is no hassle ⁓ and you start communicating ⁓ the of ⁓ an hour of nursing is £10 or the cost of a vaccination is £15 and you give those things in small increments it's good way to do So I think about digitally in terms of solving problems and as creating income streams wherever possible. And of course it's another way to sell things. So if you have a TikTok shop, And eBay shops have long been around, haven't they, in Charity Rita, where stuff's been sold. People are used to all of that. And it allows you a much broader audience than just the people who live around you. Yeah, massively. it's actually a conversation we have all the time about the amount of conversations we've had about the death of the high street and how we want to go to shops and all that kind of stuff. And actually a lot of our own insights through the Savvy Shopper panel show that a hybrid approach is always very, very preferred across a lot of different age groups. So as much as of course online shopping is convenient, definitely needs to be prioritized. You know, even when I was walking to work a few weeks ago through city center of Leeds, a very popular coffee shop has opened up in Leeds. The queue was 40 minutes long just to get in. understanding that ⁓ in-store isn't necessarily dying, but there's definitely an increased appetite for experiential stuff. your kind of dedicated ⁓ clothes, fundraiser, having your dedicated student bargain than day, having your dedicated everything on this particular rail is five pound and under for this particular week is also as important as matching that energy online. It's not necessarily saying in-store is ⁓ a kind of pointless endeavor, it's not, but it's about highlighting the experiences you get in-store through your online channels. and I think you're absolutely right, it's about creating events and using digital as a way to expand the audience for your events. you You get lots of different donations in your charity shop, but there are vintage items. Why not save them and then twice a year have a vintage sale? But the digital communication of that, because you can buy groups of people who are interested, suddenly makes that much of bigger thing. ⁓ thinking ⁓ You know, how do you use digital as a way to expand your audience and make it easier for people to give you money? That would be it for me for a digital strategy for charity retail. Don't make it too much more complicated. as opposed to replacing an in-store connection is extending that connection outward more digitally, especially when you're talking about kind of this shift towards TikTok and a much more authentic and honest and seemingly quite relatable kind of content form is very, very popular. Instead of it replacing the conversation, having a store, it's almost you're extending that conversation outward and more digitally. And it allows you to keep a connection doesn't it? You know you were just talking about the Isabel hospice and it may be that you know a relative of mine was in the Isabel hospice but I now live in Scotland at the other end of the country. I want to retain some way of supporting that hospice because they helped me in my toughest moment. If you've got a digital strategy, it allows me to give you something too, doesn't it? So to buy things from you or to donate. I think that's the thing, isn't it, about online shopping is it takes your audience from here's one shop on one day that opens between nine and five to here's a 24 hour a day across the world global enterprise that anybody can access at any time. And if you think about it that way, it's a bit of a no brainer.

CSC: That's the thing, isn't it, about online shopping is it takes your audience from here's one shop on one day that opens between nine and five to here's a 24-hour day across the world, global enterprise that anybody can access at any time. And if you think about it that way, it's a of a no-brainer. It's a no-brainer, I do have one more question. So, you know, I mentioned that my old marketing team used to have two and a half people, but they had to do the marketing for the entire hospice. I do feel that then charity retail tends to go down the pecking order. So what would you say to CEOs, exec teams, charity boards to influence them to really invest in marketing teams for charity shops and charity retail to make the most of what they have and what they do? As we've talked about today, charity shops have such a vital place in the circular economy, in giving back to the local communities with kind of loneliness and giving volunteering experience. experiences to those who either been out of work or who have individual needs that they want to get their confidence up and work and volunteer in in charity shops. What would you say to influence those decision makers to open up their purses and invest in a marketing team that's going to really deliver and make a difference to the charity retail sector? ⁓

SAVVY: Well, if I was talking to the board, would say to them income is everything. So without income, all those things you've talked about, so investing in the charity, know, and raising funds for the charity is not going to happen, is it? So, ⁓ income's everything. So you need to think about how you can generate income and a lot of that generation of income will be through retail and whether that's shops, whether it's online, whether it's events, there's a huge opportunity. think of, I think quite often what happens in charity retail is well I don't like where that shop is anyway, there can be a lot of criticism. But that's just a part of retail. So I would ask them to think again about what retail is and how do they embed a retail strategy into their overall charity strategy. What does that look like and what does it touch and how can they drive more income from it? And part of that will be to invest in their marketing a bit. that has to be part of it. But stop thinking about charity retailers just shops. Think about it more broadly in a modern world of commerce. I that's the world we work in. The modern world of commerce, what does that look like? And then where do you place your bets to make sure you're doing the right thing? So if you're a charity where community engagement is critically important, where your shops on the high street are going to be a big bit. If you're a charity where actually that's not so important, but outreach to a very specific group of interested parties is important. Well then you might say we're going to invest more in TikTok. What do you think, Yeah, I basically completely agree. ⁓ very wise. Yeah. Yeah, it's not...

CSC: important but outreach to a very specific group of interested parties is important. Well then you might say we're going to invest more in TikTok. Yeah. What do you think, Yeah, I basically completely agree. Oh, very nice. Yes, boss. Yeah, it's not a budget fluff. Like it's not. It is an extension of the connection you have with your audience that isn't that whole.

SAVVY: It's not a budget of fluff like it's not. It is an extension of the connection you have with your audience and isn't that the whole point? Isn't the whole, you know, a real theme of everything we've spoken about today is the connection that you have with your shop or the connection of the people that come into the store, whether they're donating or buying. Your marketing budget allows that connection to deepen for you to understand that more. and to have that kind of circular relationship between all three parties to be really, really strong and everything that Catherine said, basically. Don't you think about doing it? Thank you. Also, retail is a platform for growth in everything you do, isn't it? Because retail is all accessible. So whether it's that I buy my Christmas cards, that's it. That could be all I do with the charity. Or whether I use charity shops because that is the only way I can clothe myself and my family. Or whether it's because I believe in

CSC: circular relationship between all three parties to be really really strong and everything that Catherine said basically. ⁓

SAVVY: circular economy or whether I'm going to Fancy Dress party, whatever the reason, there are so many different reasons people use charity shops. Charity retail is the access point to that charity in a lot of cases, the everyday access point. And of course we've all got stories of where charities have supported us in our darkest hours and their difficult times ⁓ or a challenging moment. But actually you need the everyday to keep going, don't you? So it's the everyday reason, which is, yeah, that I always support them. They're on my high street. So think about retail as an access point is what I'd say. I would just keep talking if it was me I'd be saying for goodness sake what's the matter with you? Put all your money into retail.

CSC: Actually, you need the everyday to keep going, don't you? So it's the everyday reason, which is, oh yeah, I always bought them. They're on my house, really. So think about retail as an access point, is what I'd say. Yeah, that familiarity as well that you're talking about with like... was me, I'd be saying, for goodness sake! That's ⁓ been absolutely fantastic conversation and really interesting to get both of your perspectives. ⁓ So thank you so much. Before we finish, we always like to end with the same question to everyone we speak to, we like use our platform to obviously discuss these but we also like to use it as a space where we can ⁓ encourage each other within the industry where we can talk about charity retails on song heroes and shops that we believe do amazing things and go the extra mile. ⁓ So in that vein, if you have any particular person, shop or charity as a whole that you think deserves to be celebrated and shouted about on the podcast, who do you think that would be? ⁓

SAVVY: Well I've got a few but my charity shop Merchandising of the Year award prize if I was giving out prizes would go to the East Anglia Children's Hospital shop ⁓ in Woodbridge in Suffolk which has the most fantastic colour coordinated displays I've ever seen, it's really good. Very well managed, very well run, very welcoming and I think the East Anglia Children's Hospital retail offer is really strong. I like the way they communicate with me, they let me know what's been sold, what my gift aid is back, obviously, I think is great. So it reminds me to go back again. So I would certainly call the Woodbridge branch out, because I thought that was very impressive. I've had to take photographs, I was so impressed by it. So they would be one. Obviously your brother's shot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously, if anybody wants to go to the hospital at Egem High Street and go see Theo, he He's amazing, he'll give you amazing recommendations. I'd say, aside from that shopping experience, I think a charity that I really like for kind of personal reasons and also because there's...

CSC: I'm that one up. Yeah, obviously, if anybody wants to go to the hospital at Adam High Street, go see Theo, he's amazing, he'll you amazing recommendations. I'd say, aside from that shopping experience, think a charity that I really like for personal reasons and also because there's hundreds of ways in which they connect with me and give me an opportunity to work with them, outside when she

SAVVY: hundreds of ways in which they connect with me. It gives me an opportunity to kind of work with them, be Alzheimer's UK. I've had two grandmothers who've had dementia and Alzheimer's. It's a real thing that runs through my family. And while we don't have shops near us, what we do have is the local memory walk that happens twice a year that we always do as a family, that my mum and my brother do pretty religiously. Their social media is incredibly reoccurring and the ability to relate to them is so easy. So even though there's not a shop near me but because it's a cause that's close to me there are ways that I can support and connect with them because they offer so many opportunities to do that and I think that makes them a really good charity. I think a lot of it is to do with your experience isn't it you know particularly when it comes to retail ⁓ always talk about your good experiences not your bad experiences ⁓ the other the other shop I really like is the cancer research shop ⁓ Leeds ⁓ Kirkstall ⁓ ⁓ accepts your donations has a whole nation's hub inside and has the nicest people when you drop your stuff off they're really really lovely and it's free parking outside it's everything we talked about I am the cliche I really like them and then to be honest I like going to charity shops because I like to meet the people who are there in them and I think it's an amazing sector and you'd want to give an award to everybody who volunteers in shops wouldn't you? And what I quite like about them is Oxfam bookshops are fab aren't they? Again I went to one in Woodbridge the day that I went to the children's hospice shop totally felt different to one that might be in Edinburgh or somewhere else. Yeah the Oxfam Headingley bookshop is exceptionally well-stocked and also has the most interesting caches you'll ever speak to. who you'll be stood at the till for 10 minutes talking about the book and they've forgotten to actually scan the price because you know two locks in the chat. I agree. yeah. So I mean I kind of, there are too many to mention but we've given you a few specific ones but I just say keep going. It's hard working in retail. It doesn't matter whether you're in charity shop, whether you're working in Harrods. It's hard work and it's hard work being with the public and I wish and hope that everybody trades really well.

CSC: Yeah, absolutely. ⁓

SAVVY: in 2026. Yeah, absolutely. And if anyone needs any help and you want us to come in and speak to your board and your CEOs and really bang that drum about how charity retail is worth investing in and particularly in marketing departments, then please do give us a shout out at the Charity Retail Consultancy.

CSC: And if anyone needs any help and you want us to come in and speak to your board and your CEOs and really bang that drum about how charity retail is worth investing in and particularly in marketing departments then please do give us a shout out the charity retail consultancy. So thank you very much Catherine and Ella for chatting to us today, really really insightful and hopefully our listeners have come away with some new ideas on how they can approach marketing and insights for their shops and their e-commerce space as well. Remember Charity Retail is full of stories and we love sharing them with you so please make sure to tune in next week. Thank you very much. Bye.

SAVVY: So thank you very much Katherine and for chatting to us today, really really insightful. Hopefully, all of you have come away with some new ideas on how they can approach marketing and insights for their shops and their e-commerce space as well. So remember, charity retail is full of stories and we love sharing them with you, so please make sure to tune in next week. Thank you very much. Thank you. Bye.