Amelia Cartwright: Hello and welcome back the Charity Shop Chat podcast with myself, ⁓ Cartwright. ⁓

In-person participant 1: welcome back the Charity Shop Chat podcast with myself, Mimi Carder. ⁓ And with Charlotte Greenwood. ⁓ And hopefully know by now that this podcast is powered by the Charity Retail Consultancy, ⁓ who provides with retail expertise and training to help maximise performance, strengthen teams, ⁓ and ultimately more money in your till to support your vital courses. ⁓ And through Charity Retail Learning subscription in partnership with the CRA, ⁓ Charities can also access nearly 50 specialist online training ⁓ So do make sure you check that out.

Amelia Cartwright: So on today's episode, it's all about leadership, specifically what charity retail needs from the very top. Charity retail is one of the most complex and visible income streams charities have. It combines people property, logistics. trading risks, sustainability and community engagement, yet it's still too often misunderstood, undervalued or over-scrutinised in the wrong ways.

In-person participant 1: logistics, trading risks, sustainability and community engagement, yet it's still too often misunderstood, undervalued or over-scriptenised in the wrong ways. We'll be exploring how CEOs can better support their retail teams and why retail leaders are frequently overlooked for director of income generation roles, how boards and trading committees can add value without becoming too operational, and why equality, diversity inclusion is absolutely central to the future of charity. And we couldn't ask for a better guest to help us unpack all of this. Today we're joined by an experienced charity CEO, a strategic leader and a passionate advocate for community impact, inclusion and purpose led organizations.

Amelia Cartwright: has led large complex charities, understands the realities of governance income generation She's also a strong believer in the role of charity retail

In-person participant 1: and income generation She's also strong believer in role of charity retail players,

Amelia Cartwright: just in raising funds, but in shaping how charities show to their communities.

In-person participant 1: she also released a book last year, ⁓ a little book of leadership with raw, honest and relatable insights from her own leadership experiences. ⁓ And if that still wasn't she also hosts the Black All Year podcast, ⁓ celebrating, recognizing and educating everyone black culture ⁓ all year round. ⁓ I I'm just tired about everything this woman does. ⁓ And if Molly May says will have the same 24 hours, then this woman definitely 100 % makes the most of that time. ⁓

Amelia Cartwright: whether you're a CEO, trustee, retail leader, shop manager or volunteer, ⁓ a coffee, settle in and get ready for a really, really important conversation. ⁓ welcome CEO of

In-person participant 1: So whether you're a CEO, trustee, retail leader, shop manager or volunteer, grab a coffee, settle in and get ready for a really, really important conversation. Please welcome CEO of

Amelia Cartwright: Hospice, Stafford EC. ⁓

In-person participant 1: Hi. I hope I'm going to live up to all of that now. We haven't said anything that's not true.

Amelia Cartwright: Absolutely. ⁓

In-person participant 1: It's a personal pleasure to have you on this episode. You're definitely a great role model for me. When I started my career in charity retail, I think you were the very first black female CEO of a hospice that I ever met. So I really love the fact that you use your position to raise awareness, not only of charity shops, but also about EDI as well. And obviously those two things are my biggest passions. So thank you for agreeing to indulge me and coming on today. Thank you for asking me. It's a real pleasure. So can you tell us a bit about your journey into charity leadership then and how you became a CEO? Yeah, so my background is actually in the NHS. I worked in the NHS for 18 and a half years, not clinical. I always say nobody would want me to be the clinician. I don't have enough attention to detail apart from anything else. yeah, so I worked in the NHS, started off as a clock typist, medical secretary, and then worked my way through management and leadership. And then really, I just had enough. I had enough of the culture. I felt like I wasn't able to actually make real change. And I stepped out and I kind of had a bit of a bridging into the charity world in that I moved into being chief exec of Healthwatch in Newcastle and then also Gateshead. So that was a not-for-profit. We actually set up a community interest company that ran it part way through my tenure there, but it was a statutory organization. So was a little bit of a comfort

Amelia Cartwright: Yeah, so my background is actually in NHS. I worked in the NHS for 18 and a half years, not clinical. I will say nobody would want me to be their clinician. I don't have enough attention to detail apart from anything else. yeah, so I worked in the NHS, started off as a clock typist, medical secretary, and then worked my way through management and leadership. And then, really, I just had enough. I had enough of the culture. I felt like I wasn't able to actually make real change.

In-person participant 1: And then I was involved as being a trustee for various charities and things like that and then saw the role that came up here at St. Oswald's Hospice and it was one of those ones where I immediately went, oh, I'd love to do that. And then went, oh, cause no, cause it's St. Oswald's Hospice and it's huge and it's such a major part of the culture and the heart of the Northeast and particularly this part of the Northeast. And then I had a word with myself and said, look, just apply. And there you go, I was really, really fortunate to get the job here. So I started, I had my interview in February, 2020. So you can imagine. Not sure what happened then. And this is really relevant actually for charity retail. I started on the 1st of May, 2020 when all of our shops were closed. We had an online business, fortunately we had eBay at the time. So that was still operating. ⁓ And we actually set up a... a click and collect. particularly around furniture. what we did was they, because the warehouse was completely empty in the team had loads of time. They set up little room scenarios and everything was for sale. So people could contact us ⁓ through media and say, ⁓ I'd really like that vase or I'd like that sofa or whatever. ⁓ And could just ⁓ order And then they came and collected it. ⁓ So was quite a nice little way of making sure that we still had retail going through that time. ⁓ every single one of our, at the time, 24 shops were closed. And that was not something I'd anticipated as a keen charity shopper, that I'd come into. And our staff were fit and old as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a tough time for everyone, wasn't it? I love the innovative kind of like online idea. Yeah. That was great. Oh, was brilliant. Absolutely loved it. I remember a time when we were all sat there with nothing to do but scroll on our phones.

Amelia Cartwright: I love the innovative kind of like online IKEA. That was great. would have definitely... And at a time when we're all sat there with nothing to do but scroll on our phones, what better way sell?

In-person participant 1: And full credit to the team. ⁓ They that opportunity to really think about our model and how we did things and to be really creative. ⁓ And repaying some benefits of that now. ⁓

Amelia Cartwright: So how has your past experience and that early experience coming in during a time of Covid, how has that shaped the way that you think about income generation and retail?

In-person participant 1: So how has your past experience and that early experience in during the time of COVID, ⁓ has that shaped the way that you think about income generation and retail? I retail is really interesting. I'll come back to this in a sec. ⁓ income generally, ⁓ I it's interesting when you come from something like the NHS where, ⁓ yes, always had to manage budgets for a large part of my career. ⁓ Money has always been tight, but actually at the end of March, they just wipe the slate clean and you start afresh. Coming into a world where that isn't the case was quite challenging and actually educating the NHS that that's not the case for charities is a huge issue as well. But I think that... A of things have helped me in that I have also run my own business. So when I stepped into Healthwatch, I set up my own business. that understanding of marketing and things like that was really, really important. me though, there's something about retail that is a plus, but it's also one of the challenges in that we all shop. Absolutely everybody shops. And one of the advantages then is that people have a real connection with our shops. They see our shops. I know when I got this job, my daughter was still at school and she used to always find it difficult to explain what it was that I did. And she loved it partly because she could say to her friends, you know, the St. Oswald shops that you see, yeah. My mom runs them. was my job. ran the shops. And everybody went, ⁓ I understand that. Did they then go? Yeah. Did they then go, I went in there and I didn't see your mom? But actually, I'm a dance teacher and one of the kids that I dance went into one of our shops and said, I know your boss. I know the chief exec. So yeah, it does happen. But also the drawback of that is that everybody's shot.

Amelia Cartwright: I absolutely love that. It's a real sense of pride though, it really is. I felt that.

In-person participant 1: and therefore everybody thinks they know how to run a shop. So everybody's full of really helpful advice about what we should be doing and what our pricing structure should be and stuff like that. And I mean, I'm not a retail expert, I really stress that. So I will make suggestions to the team. And if they go... Yeah, that's a good idea. I feel like I've won. If they say, yeah, Steph, no, I just go, okay, right, back off. But people genuinely think that they understand retail because they've shopped their entire lives. And we all know it's far more complex than that. And actually they're really skilled people that run charity shops in particular, because it's so complex. The fact that you never know what stock you're going to have for a start. ⁓ Yeah, you're ⁓ So how important is it then for CEOs to visibly champion their retail teams because you're very ⁓ active on your social media accounts doing your ⁓ Charity shop outfits, which is brilliant know, how important is it for you to do that visibly both internally and externally to the as well? think it's particularly important for a charity like ours where we have a physical site that is close to the shops, because a lot of the, particularly our volunteers don't come to the hospice. A lot of our customers don't come to the hospice. And what we need to make sure is that the shops don't just become a source of income that's completely detached. We want them to have the same values and really understand what it is. that they are there for, why they are raising the money. We want them to be able to have those conversations with customers and with volunteers about what it is we're doing, what the challenges are and things like that. So actually me showing a real interest in them brings them a bit closer and helps with that connection. I think that's really, really vital. But also because they're not physically here, they can get forgotten about as well. So I think for me being a bit of an advocate means that they're kind of present on the hospice site and it's interesting our clinical team, particularly some of our auxiliary nurses and things will go, ⁓ I saw you online, I saw you got that. And you know, when you're finished with that stuff, you can pass it my way. So they're really actively involved in understanding that element of St. Oswald Hospice, because it is still part of the charity. And kind of then in a similar vein, obviously you do so much. ⁓

Amelia Cartwright: And kind of then in a similar vein, obviously you do so much. have a great online presence, ⁓ a book and a podcast as well. ⁓ for a CEO ⁓ a leader that ⁓ have ⁓ those kind points of access, ⁓ how would you recommend connected with what's really happening in the shops ⁓ and still remaining strategic a CEO?

In-person participant 1: ⁓ and a podcast as well. ⁓ for a CEO ⁓ a leader that ⁓ have ⁓ those kind points access, ⁓ how would you recommend connected with what's really happening in the shops ⁓ and still remaining strategic as ⁓ a CEO? ⁓ Well, first of all, I'd say as a leader, if you don't have a social media presence, you are letting your organization down. And I know people find it really cringy and you don't have to do what I do and speak to camera and stuff like that. But actually, nowadays in the modern world, ⁓ a charity needs to have some kind of social media presence. ⁓ And how make that happen is up to you. But I firmly believe it is an asset. But actually, whilst I do all of that stuff, which is very showy, for me, it's that I go into the shops and I talk with the staff and the volunteers. And that's more important to me is that, when I am in there, yes, one of the drawbacks is I have to buy something in every shop that I go to. But it costs a fortune just because I'm there so much. But that connection, it's that understanding, you can ask ⁓ what's going how are things That is the most important part of it. It's the ⁓ hearing, the understanding, it's the going We have retail managers meetings. It's about going along to them occasionally to be able to ⁓ hear from them. ⁓ That is stuff that really the difference. ⁓ But as I say, you need have that presence as well so you can talk about the work of ⁓ your charity and... ⁓ obviously charity retail. That's that is really interesting because some some leaders think that you should remain a little bit more neutral on LinkedIn or, you know, not bring it to the forefront. So it's nice to hear you say that actually you think the complete opposite is really important to have that voice and lead by example. Yeah, I think you've got you've got to understand and remember that what what you say publicly is going to reflect on the organization. So I'm really careful about how I word things on LinkedIn and LinkedIn particularly. ⁓ yeah, I think it ⁓ is really important. It's important that I share and comment on. the stuff that the hospice is doing and kind of elevate and share that more. It's part of my role as a chief exec. Yeah, and there's a positive side as well because people will see that if they don't work for you or they don't donate to you, they'll see that it resonates with them. They're more likely to either donate to you, shop with you or apply for jobs with you as well. And we certainly have people that I am have been initially contacts. with or networked with on social media, who I then have met with either through physical networking or just because we've had conversations and I've said, do you want to come to the hospice? Who have then gone on to be supporters in various ways? And there's a number of them that I know that's where that's originated. Yeah. And as a young person, we've had these conversations a lot recently of just how...

Amelia Cartwright: Yeah, and as a younger person, we've had these conversations a lot recently of just how, firstly, how influenced we are as a generation. And we're the first generation to grow up with not knowing life without having digital screens. it just shows how powerful it can be to be on social media and how integral it is, as you say. ⁓ as a CEO, but also as a charity as a whole to have that online digital strategy. So yeah, completely agree with that. But it's important to be authentic with it as Absolutely. I find it quite cringy sometimes when you see people doing stuff.

In-person participant 1: it just shows how powerful it can be to be on social media and how integral it is, as you say, as a CEO, but also as a charity as a whole to have that online digital strategy. So yeah, completely agree with that. But it's important to be authentic with it as well, you know? I find it quite cringy sometimes when you see people doing stuff. and you just think you're hating every second of this. so it has to be real. And I think that is the thing that actually your generation is really good at is about quite quickly seeing somebody who's not being authentic and going, yeah, I'm not having any of that. So yeah, you have to be authentic and you have to... you have to show up in a way that is right for you. As I say, if you don't want to talk to camera, don't talk to camera. Do written posts, but do something.

Amelia Cartwright: completely. ⁓ everything you do with like myth-busting it is just creating that transparency and that authenticity that yeah firstly as a younger generation we can observe and see quite quickly. ⁓ And secondly, as charity retailers, you to be transparent. ⁓ on the floor, you have to have that connection with each ⁓ customer that walks into shop. That's half of what the whole experience of like shopping in a charity shop is about. ⁓ And so yeah, having that transparency online and that then ⁓ being translated, ⁓ it puts the charity sector and the charity retail sector in the light that it needs to be in

In-person participant 1: And so yeah, having that transparency online and them being translated, just puts the charity ⁓ and charity retail sector in the light that it needs to be in ⁓ the way that we as chief executives show up in charity retail. I think it's important that we don't just do, I talk about wafting a lot. So it's important I just don't waft in and go, ⁓ you're doing so well and then waft out again. So it's about having those proper conversations, but it's also about, so when we opened our new gospel shop, I spent a morning in there helping to sort and hang the goods before we opened the shop. Because actually for me, that was, it gives me an understanding of what our teams are doing, but also it means that I'm chatting to the teams as I'm doing it, but they can see that this is important to me. it's about understanding what you're doing, but people recognizing that yes, I've got a chief exec title, but I'm actually just a ⁓ And therefore, if there is anything that they want to say, can we do this or we've got a problem with this, hopefully they feel more comfortable about. speaking to me and it's lovely I've actually got some retail volunteers that are connected on Facebook that will message me ⁓ and even just with things like happy new year but that means that they feel that I'm approachable in that way which is great. love that I would love more CEOs and trustees as well to get down you know literally pull their sleeves up and see what it's like to work in a charity shop. I know one time we were getting a lot of scrutiny about whether we were sorting donations in the most efficient way and things like that for the trustees so actually my CEO went down there put on a high vis vest and she sorted for the morning in the donation center and she came out and was like I can honestly say that we are doing everything as efficiently as possible. You know, I asked questions, I did it myself. And yes, yes, we are doing that. that is really important. a real eye opener when you see some of the things that are donated as well. I mean, Yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah. So what difference do you think senior leadership engagement makes to the retail team morale and performance? And obviously as a winner of most supportive CEO for the CRA awards, you must have made a difference. What does that look like? think ⁓ was really lovely about that award actually was that the team nominated me. They wanted to nominate me. It wasn't something that we as an organization said, ⁓ let's put Steph forward for this. They decided that they wanted to do that. ⁓ And think that engagement makes them feel valued, recognized, and like I say, so distant the organization itself. ⁓ the fact that actually somebody does care about what they're doing. people come into contact with the hospice through the shops than they ever will through our services. So if somebody has a bad experience of our shop, then it's St. Oswald's Hospice they're having a bad experience with. And we are looking at how we can really use that kind of 25 venues we have now to further delivery of our services. So we've got some quite large shops now and how could we be using them out of shop opening times to run things in there? How can we connect people in the community who may need support and advice and guidance? with the hospice via our shop. them understanding that they are more than just an income generation tool, I think is really important. And I hope that that's what my interest in them does. And yes, I praise them for great results and stuff like that, but actually that it's more than that. They are far more than just pounds.

Amelia Cartwright: And in a similar kind of vein to that then, there's a feeling I guess that retail can kind of sometimes feel secondary to fundraising ⁓ in the context of wider income generation teams within charities. ⁓ Considering that charity retail leaders manage large teams, complex operations. ⁓ Why do you think it is then that often they're overlooked from a Director of Income?

In-person participant 1: I think there's something about, if we look at things like heads of retail, ⁓ how focused are they just on retail? So from them looking at what they can do themselves. So if we think about heads of fundraising, part of what we do in fundraising is they have to really be connected into what's happening in the rest of the hospice. They've got to understand what's going on, why we're raising money for this and that. So they've got that broader understanding of the whole charity, whereas retail, I think, can get sidelined a little bit or pigeonholed into just looking at that. So I think there's something about, for heads of retail that are aspiring to those kind of positions, making sure that they get opportunities to... see the rest of the organization and not just that. know, phrases that I've heard referred, retail referred to as like the Wild West because it can be, you know, all, everything can go on in retail and does. We get the most entertaining adverse events reports from retail because you just go, they did what? Normally customers are hasty to add, but. So I think that it sometimes has this reputation of being very, very different. But again, it goes back to that, well, we could all run a shop. ⁓ actually, if you think about the amount of people that, ⁓ I really like crystals, I'll open a crystal shop, or I really like cheese, I'll open a cheese shop. ⁓ then they fail. ⁓ shows you just how many people think that is an easy thing to do. ⁓ So I think as well that maybe the value and the skills that that takes are very underrated by boards, unfortunately, sometimes. So it's probably the combination of the heads of retail that are aspiring to do some stuff, but also about how do we make sure that boards understand just how complex this is? It's not as simple as, well, I'll put that out at £3.50 and it'll sell and everything will be hunky-dory. because it's really not. Yeah, yeah. I think that's really interesting what you say about how potentially heads of retail can become siloed in their own, you especially if they're in a different building to the rest of the fundraising team or the rest of the charity, it can be really difficult. And I've had lots of debates about this, as you'd expect with my peers and, you know, going through interviews and for jobs and, and, I'm always so proud of any head of retail that gets a director of income generation job, because I'm like, yes. One of us did it, well done. They saw the value in what we bring to the table. So guess my question is, do you think that fundraising and retail should be split out or do you think it's right to sit them under one income generation team? Do you think then one always gets a disadvantage if that director doesn't have experience in both areas or do you think it's okay? Because every charity does things differently. I think it really depends on the director. I'll talk here. we, Anita, who is our director of income generation and marketing. she's amazing. She's absolutely fantastic. And I will do absolutely everything I can to hang on to her as a director. So she has our head of commerce and marketing. She has our head of fundraising, our head of retail under there. Now, one of the things that Anita does really well is she brings those three together as a team on a very regular basis. So kind of every other week they meet as a senior team. So they are connected and understand what's going on with each other. And I think that's, that's really, really important because actually they do compliment each other and fundraising, you know, when we had the big legacy campaign. And we've just had a giving day. Our shops were all set up as part of that giving day. So they were actively involved in fundraising as well as selling goods in retail. So having that, that connection is really, really important. But if you've got a director who cannot encompass that whole remit of income generation, you've probably got the wrong person, ⁓ I'm honest. ⁓ you need to have somebody who ⁓ can ideally trust their heads off or whatever title they wanna give them, can trust them and take advice from them, but can really bring them into the team so that you've got a cohesive income generation team. So what skills do you think retail leaders bring that boards and CEOs might sometimes underestimate then? What things should we be shouting more about and kind of blowing our own trumpet about? ⁓ First of all, creativity. And that ability to constantly look, scan, reinvent, adjust. Fantastic people management skills. mean, like I say, some of the challenges that we ⁓ encounter means that they have to be ⁓ really I think quite emotionally intelligent the best or very emotionally intelligent but there's a real commercial perspective that I think a lot of charity boards miss. So our head of retail, Andrew, can be so challenging to me and will question me. And we have really robust debates, but I love it. And I try to make a point afterwards of going, I know we disagree, but thank you for that. Because it challenges me. It really makes me think. is what I think that we're doing the right thing or ⁓ actually why aren't we doing that? So I think ⁓ there's that kind of business acumen, that ability to challenge, the ⁓ ability to and adapt is really, really something I see probably more in retail than I do anywhere else the charity. ⁓ That's great. And it's great that you have that challenging debate because, ⁓ you know, sometimes people fall into the trap being a yes person around a CEO. ⁓ and actually that's good. It's good that he's got the confidence and he's got the authenticity to be able to say actually, you know, this is my point of view and then you're able to have a healthy debate and it's not about one of two of you being negative. It's just having different perspectives and then agreeing sometimes to disagree. Yeah.

Amelia Cartwright: can charities better develop retail leaders into kind of future senior leaders, do you think?

In-person participant 1: There's probably something about us not thinking about them as retail leaders actually, and just thinking about them as leaders in the same way that we might do senior nurses or HR professionals, that we don't just assume that that's all that they have to give. I think charities are not necessarily the best at leadership development, mainly because we don't... have a lot of money spare for leadership development. So it's about thinking about how can we do that without it costing a fortune, but to really make sure that conversations are being had with our retail leaders about what are their aspirations, And even if they want to be ahead of retail for the rest of their lives. how can we make sure that they do that in the best way and still fulfill any ambitions that they might have in that role? I think that there's something the, whoever is in charge of your ⁓ should be seen on a par ⁓ in a hospice situation, whoever is matron or whatever. ⁓ They're running large, complex departments ⁓ that are vital to the operation the charity. and therefore they should be treated in exactly the same way and given the same opportunities and development. As someone that's just coming into the first early stages of their career, I'd like to say it's so inspiring to speak to you because I've been on the journey with retail already and...

Amelia Cartwright: As someone that's just coming into the first early stages of their career, I'd like to say it's so inspiring to speak to you because I've been on the journey with retail already And this leadership aura that you have is just so lovely. team is Obviously very lucky to have him and I would like to take this moment by saying I did get your book in my stocking for Christmas. I know, cheers Santa, that's a real one.

In-person participant 1: Oh! Love that. You know what, you're not the only one as well. got a message from somebody, I'm not going to say who he is, but somebody else, and I felt like replying and saying, you mean you haven't already bought it?

Amelia Cartwright: I'm sorry, I'm before.

In-person participant 1: moving on to kind of boards and committees then. So ⁓ they can be incredibly valuable, of but they can also be quite challenging. But from your perspective, what should their really be? interesting because this applies right across ⁓ the ⁓ and everything that we do. ⁓ A role or a trading committee directors role is there to ⁓ gain ⁓ It not there to run the organization. ⁓ And in trustee roles and others, ⁓ I've to really... ⁓ rein that in. I love being a ⁓ charity trustee because I don't have to do it. It's great. I can ask the questions and say, I need more assurance on that, but I don't actually have to deliver it. But actually that's what people really need to recognise. And I think there's a really fine balance, particularly within retail, think between giving enough detail and giving not enough. And it's something that we kind of, it's a tightrope we walk all the time. We give the activity and kind of finances for each of our shops, but then have to pull them back from getting dragged into the, ⁓ so why was the Shiremore shop up this month and on last month? Because actually that's not really relevant. Are they delivering what you'd expect them to deliver? And can we do more? That's the kind of thing. What more might they need to be able to do more? That's the kind of question that should be asked. So I think that Having a good chair, we've got a great chair. We actually have been blessed with really good chairs through my time here, but we've got a great chair at the moment who really understands that I think ⁓ the relationship a and chief exec is absolutely vital. ⁓ I try to be really open and honest with my chair and that means that they might hear about stuff that others might not necessarily share with the chair so we'll talk about ⁓ and challenges and stuff that's going on so that he's fully aware of what might be coming. So I think that relationship is really important. So then if we did get into a situation where we've got somebody who was getting too into the detail, that I can just go give him a bit of a nudge and say, could you just pull them back a bit? So yeah, it is really important that they are there to seek that assurance. This is actually something I've learned from our chair of saying, so what question is it you're actually trying to answer in asking that? Because I could give you that information ⁓ But what is it that you're actually trying to find out? What is it you're actually trying to seek? ⁓ Because I could answer your question and it wouldn't give you that ⁓ So think there is something about when you're managing somebody like that, it's probably because what they're sitting there is saying, we're not making enough money, how do we make more money? And it's kind of asking, almost being like a coach to them and asking those questions to get to what is the root of the issue? And then we can deal with that instead of the, you know, superfluous, why are you selling men's t-shirts at £2.50 instead of £3 or something like So what advice would you give to heads of retail then when their board starts becoming too operational ⁓ and they're not as much support in bringing them back to a strategic guidance and reassurance then? ⁓ What channels would suggest they go down? ⁓ I think they to go through their line of reporting. ⁓ So whether that's a director, to the chief executive, whoever they report into, I think they need to be having those very ⁓ open conversations with them because What they might find in doing that is that's actually because there's been some direction from the chief exec, which might then suggest that there's a lack of trust in retail. And I know that happens, unfortunately. So having that, hopefully that isn't the case. And then actually the, is ⁓ that of line of management. can then champion their case a little bit and try and pull things back. As I say, sometimes that, ⁓ trying understand what it is you really want to know, I think is a really valuable way of pushing back ⁓ without going, you're getting in my face, get out. But kind of, you know that. when they are getting operational saying, I'm trying to help you, I'm trying to give you the answers that you need, but I need to understand what is it you're really concerned about, because I'm sure it's not what you're actually asking me, because that's quite an operational thing. And trying to get to the bottom. But that's when actually from, going back to the question about retail management and leadership, that's when you're bringing those real leadership skills to bear instead of just getting all prickly. because believe me, I've been there when somebody asks you a question, you're like, I really don't want you to ask me that. Instead of getting all prickly, you really kind of have to dig deep and kind of go, right, I'm gonna go in as a leader and a coach here and have that kind of approach instead of getting defensive. Yeah, that's great advice. And I do think sometimes there's an element of trustees wanting to be helpful, especially if you're a new trustee. I was a board director a few months. before I took on the consultancy work. And you want to be helpful. And when you've got that expertise and that knowledge, you want to show them that you've got that and so that you can be helpful because you're new and you want to make your mark. And I think sometimes it's coming from a good place and it might not even be that they need reassurance. They just want to show how they can help you. And then you suddenly realize, actually, no, I'm not supposed to be operational. ⁓ I'm actually here just make sure that they're getting on with things as per the strategy and the direction that they're, you know, we agreed the organization would go on to, rather than get into the finer detail. And I think there's always a benefit of an offline conversation as well. So if you've got a trustee who seems to have a real interest in retail or knowledge in retail, say, look, do you want to come in and have a chat and we can talk about what's going on? I can really explain everything to you in detail. And then there may be some stuff that that trustee knows that you kind of really want to go, ⁓ but tell us more about that. But it means that you can hopefully reassure them. ⁓ build a relationship, get an ally on board, but also work out is there, are there some real gems that I can use this trustee for as well? it's a beneficial thing, I think.

Amelia Cartwright: Absolutely. ⁓ So moving then from governance to EDI, why is

In-person participant 1: to EDI. EDI ⁓ important in resale to other parts of the charity?

Amelia Cartwright: EDI ⁓ particularly important in charity compared to other parts of the

In-person participant 1: As I said before, our shops are out there in communities. So whatever your communities look like, they will be going in the shop. you're going to come across really diverse communities. I think though, when particularly comes to our volunteer base, ⁓ are our most diverse in our retail volunteers. and whether that's ethnic diversity, particularly neurodiversity, mental health and things like that, are really, really present. And I think it's a really important part of what we do ⁓ that we support people. I'm going to give a little example. So we have a ⁓ in our War's End shop ⁓ he is autistic. ⁓ when he first came, he had ear defenders on and all he wanted to do was be in the cupboard ⁓ we store all of the CDs and DVDs and sort them. That's all he wanted to do. And the manager there worked with him and has really kind of helped him build his confidence and things. And then said, why don't you go on the till? And he is now, they have a little kind of visitor book. He gets more comments than anybody else in that visitor book because he is just so chatty. And he can't praise the management team there enough in terms of what they've done to support him. That is so important. It's such an important part of what we do in charity retail that people just don't even see, I think, a lot of the time. ⁓ We have very young people, so have volunteers as young as 14. I dread to think how our oldest volunteer is, but I think we do in retail have some that are 80 plus. You know, we have, like I say, all different neurodiversities. We have different ethnicities, different physical disabilities, mental health issues. We need to be able to work with, recognize and support people and celebrate them as well. as I say, more than the people that use our actual hospice services and work in the hospice. That is our most diverse. And what I want to be able to do is to then start feeding some of that through into our services and our wider staff group because we want and need more of that. It brings such richness and interest and benefit to us. So we need to kind of use that almost as a pipeline to getting people through into the rest of the charity.

Amelia Cartwright: Absolutely. we we always say on this podcast charity are such a pillar ⁓ of our ⁓ And ⁓ the note, hospices are such a pillar of the communities that you're in. ⁓ And yet have that representation on the high street ⁓ is so important. charity retailers on we always say they're not just shop managers, ⁓ but we're all are very integral parts of the community because we serve so much more than just ⁓ till. ⁓

In-person participant 1: ⁓ retailers aren't, we always say they're not just a shop ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ all are integral parts of the community because we serve so much more than just the ⁓ tail. ⁓ Yeah. yeah. they know, ⁓ especially some of have been there forever ⁓ and they know what's going on. They know the regulars. It was lovely when... ⁓ I've gone back to COVID and we opened, I think it was five of our shops And I thought, right, I'm going to go out and visit each of the shops. And I took my daughter, who'd been locked up in the house for three months at that point, took her out with me and we went round all of the shops on the day that they opened. And what was lovely was hearing customers coming in going. ⁓ know, Sheila, we've missed you. It's so lovely to be back and for the customers to be greeted by name as well. And that was me really going, this is more than a shop. This is actually, we've got customers who are in there every single day, But this is part of their network and part of their social life and things like that. And that's just so important. I love that word you used, richness. think that's a lovely positive description of what it could be when you have diversity. how can retail environments then become more inclusive for ⁓ volunteers and customers without being performative? How can we do that with authenticity? I'll start with customers actually, and I think there's something about us really understanding what our values are as an organization and making sure that people know that when they're in our shops, they are in a safe place. really important that ⁓ our shops, we recognize that ⁓ will have ⁓ whole world coming through in terms of diversity and that everybody needs to feel safe ⁓ needs to feel welcome in those shops. ⁓ that's a core part actually of any shop. You kind of go, why would you not make people feel welcome? ⁓ we have to think about what we do, what we say, how we present our imagery in the shops. All of that is really, really important. ⁓ we have had issues where customers have been in shops and have, it's mainly been about race, but have said things and our staff, first priority is that staff have to keep themselves safe, but actually if they can then support the individual who is on the receiving end of that, they will do that. And we've unfortunately had a few instances where, ⁓ we've ended up having to take people through into the back of the shop to keep them safe, make sure they're okay and things like that. So that's. That is really important. From a staff and volunteer perspective, I do think this comes very much from the top in the messaging that we give about who is welcome and what we will tolerate and what we won't tolerate. So recently we sent out something on the back of a lot of the marches over the summer. We sent out a letter to all staff to say, and volunteers actually, to say that we... understand that we've got a really diverse group of staff and volunteers and that we will have every opinion under the sun. And I'm not here to tell people what to think, but we also have values and behaviors and we expect them to be what is on show all of the time. So if you have a view that is contrary to our values and behaviors, then it doesn't get expressed in a work environment, And I felt that was probably the best way of putting it. can't, like said, I can't force people to think the same way as me, unfortunately. There will be much better places. But no, can't force people and I'm not gonna turn around because people have their own reasons for thinking whatever they think and believe. But what I will not have is people treating people disrespectfully or making them feel like they don't belong or even worse shouldn't exist. so ⁓ think that has to come from the top and saying, ⁓ is just not something we tolerate. And what role do you think CEOs and boards have in embedding EDI into their strategy and their values instead of just policy and get them to lead by example? because I can understand it, charities are scared because they run the risk of losing donors or customers or cash supporters or ambassadors. If you do publicly celebrate things What advice would you give to leaders to be brave about taking that on? There's probably a couple of things. There's something about just doing the right thing. you have, I'm going to come back to values again. If you have personal values that are in accordance with your organizational values, then it should feel like it's the right thing. Believe me, I would go much further than the organization does, if it was up to me. ⁓ The other thing, and it's been quite interesting that, yes, we have had people who have objected. We've had people that have objected to us using the term ⁓ diversity and inclusion. But actually, it's the, well, We don't want to water it down and pretend, but what we have had is feedback from people who are in those groups, who have then said, thank you, I feel seen, I feel recognized, ⁓ it's been really helpful. And far more of them than we have the odd individual who says, well, I'm not giving you my regular donation anymore. And we don't want to lose donations, but it's that. there are far more people out there who will support us because of what we've done than those who will be against us. And some of it, I'll go back to neurodiversity, we've just won an award on neurodiversity, which is fantastic. But people will object to us being outspoken on neurodiversity and you kind of go, really? Is that where we've got to? But we know we have a lot of our staff and volunteers and service users and particularly customers who are neurodiverse. So why would we not go out of our way to make things comfortable for them and accommodating for them? ⁓ And we will gain far more as a result. So there is something about being brave. We did have a little thing and I think it probably came from me because it sounds like something I say about sometimes you just got put your big. girl pants on. And I think it's that sometimes you just have to go, is this in accordance with who we are as an organization of our news year? Well, then I'll put my big girl pants on and if somebody wants to complain, I'll deal with that.

Amelia Cartwright: I love that. And yeah, it feels like it's so obvious to follow your values, your personal values and the values of the organisation in a world that is so ⁓ and so noisy at the moment. There's no wonder that some ⁓ organisations too ⁓ nervous, their big girl pants on and be brave. ⁓ But we are a sector which has to push for as much hope and love as we can because that is, ⁓ of if we're a charity that's a hospice ⁓ any other charity, ⁓ we're all ⁓ trying to fight for better world all of us. So ⁓ I love that from ⁓ the perspective someone in Gen Z and younger generation, ⁓ so aware now of how politicised ⁓ everything is, money is so political, where we spend our money is so political, that's why I love to go to charity shops and that's part of the reason that that's become such a big trend in my, for my generation to shop sustainably and to shop where you know your money's gonna do something and to have that and be proud of that and put that as like a focus as part of your strategy. completely appeals to myself and so many others around me. yeah, from a youth perspective, having that at the forefront of your strategy, I think is ⁓ more appealing

In-person participant 1: I think people ⁓ fear that it's going to have this huge backlash and most of the time it doesn't. And even it does, it dies out. ⁓ It goes, you know, it's like, pass. ⁓ It's ⁓ Just ride it out. Stick to ⁓ your values. ⁓ Have a good rationale. call people in when they question. That's the other thing when we have had people we haven't gone, you're a nasty racist or whatever, we've gone, have a talk about it. Let us explain to you why we're doing this. And if you still disagree, then fine, you disagree. But at least we've been able to be nice about it and talk about it. Yeah, respond with curiosity, isn't it? Why do you feel that ⁓ We did have a comment though. We sent a survey out and we put ⁓ demographic questions on for the first time. And we got one response back saying, I hope St. Oswald's hospice hasn't gone woke. If it has, I shall be reconsidering my... And my response that didn't go to the individual was, ⁓ we haven't gone woke. We always were woke. Yes, love that. And I think hospices, they really do have a part to play with EDI because if there is one thing in life that is guaranteed to happen and will make us all equals, is that ultimately at some point your time will end?

Amelia Cartwright: That's amazing, absolutely amazing.

In-person participant 1: So hospices have a real role to make sure that whoever you are, whatever you believe in, that they've got somewhere safe and compassionate to go and have their last moments with their families. So I think sometimes hospices will go under that umbrella of we'll just care for everyone, you but it's not as simple as that. We need to make sure that we are creating change. That means they aren't scared to go in to a hospice because they're not sure if they're going to be treated well because of their sexual preference or gender or colour. and they need to be able to see that beforehand that they're going to be welcomed. Yeah. And that we'll meet their needs as well. It's the, you know, we're not a one size fits all. And actually, if you don't want something, we're not gonna make you do it. And that's one of the things I love about hospice care is that it is so person driven. It's very much about what do you want and let's make that happen. And that's what I think all healthcare should be. And unfortunately it isn't, but Hospice Care really does try to meet that individual's needs and wants. And therefore EDIs should be what we do. And that's how I describe it to the staff. say, I know some people think it's a dirty word, but it's about saying what's important to you. And because it's important to you, it's important to us. Right. So back to kind of charity retail then. ahead to the future. You know, things are really uncertain. It is a incredibly tough time for charity retailers. What do you think charity retail needs most from and boards over the next five to 10 years? ⁓ Focus vision, ⁓ I think. cannot allow ourselves to become complacent. So even if you are in the fortunate position where your retailer is doing really well, you can't just sit there and go, ⁓ well, it's fine because the whole market is changing. I was talking to a group ⁓ a charity that I chair ⁓ there's this thing of actually we need reasons to go out of our houses post-COVID. So we've become a people who need a reason to ⁓ leave. And that is affecting the way that we shop and the way that we socialize and all that type of thing. So really making sure that we're adapting what we do for that. So e-commerce is a big part of what we have to do and making that easier and better. You I want to be able to go on a St. Oswald site and go red top size 10, because I'd like to lose some weight. and it'll come up with all of the red tops that we've got and I can just order online. That's a dream. ⁓ And sure we'll get there, but that's ⁓ kind That's where we need to be, I think, in the same way that I can do it with online retailers. ⁓ also when it comes to our physical shops, we need to make them places that people want to go into. I think there's a lot about really thinking about where people are shopping. So we've been very high street oriented and I love that. And actually, ⁓ I think about the ⁓ streets that we're on, we very much a hub. of that high street. So where that's working, we need to keep doing it, but think about where else people are shopping. So we have, two years ago, we opened off first, which I would call an out of town. It's actually just got a farm foods and a B ⁓ You know, so it's a not massive one, but we're slap bang in the middle of that. And that's worked really well for us. It's a bigger store in Blyth. ⁓ And it's out very differently. ⁓ and it's doing really well. And ⁓ really looking at how we can adapt more to ⁓ these places where we know people go, where we know there's an Aldi or a little or whatever, and they're going to be there. ⁓ And actually, if we be right next door, they're going to pop in well. So, I think really think about what ⁓ the... ⁓ the market looks like, so that's the vision part of it. But as I say, not taking your eye off the ball, not kind of sitting and going, well, everything's okay. And then all of a sudden it won't be, because it's not all of a sudden, there's a gradual decline in that. And I think being ready to listen to new ideas and new innovation, even if you don't get it. So this is when there is a generational thing. Most boards are 50 plus. a lot of boards or 60 plus, you just might not get it. But you need to believe it when a 25 year old says, this is what's happening. This is how I and my friends shop. So we need to just have that open mind to be really be receptive to some of this instead of going, well, that's stupid and you shouldn't do it. I don't care whether you think it's stupid. That's what people are doing. And as you say, we're all gonna die, the 60 year olds aren't gonna be around forever. We need to make sure that we're getting those young customers in their teens when they've got no money and they see charity shops as a good way to get a cheap outfit and that we keep them throughout their entire life because they move from that to being, actually this is a really good environmental thing to do, to being, actually this is good for the charity that I'm supporting in our local community and that we follow them through that whole pathway. So in the same way that Fundraising is looking at stewardship. We really need to be focusing on retail stewardship of our customers. And I think we could do actually a whole another podcast episode about how do we attract younger people to apply for board positions? And are we doing the right things to do that? I saw one only last night about advertising for a trustee, but the two requirements were you had to either have been a CEO or you had to have really deep experience ⁓ in education. And I was like, you are canceling out so many really talented people who've got really interesting perspectives by having those two criteria. And then I've also seen things like you have to have a degree or a master's or a PhD and actually organizations that have, you know, a specific trustee or non exec director role for a youth engagement position probably have a much better view of what's going on in the world because I've got that position and they've got a perspective of someone like Mimi who represents, you know, the younger generation who's going to be inevitably the older generation and there's longevity in that. So yeah, a whole nother podcast episode. Oh yes. I mean, one of the things that we have done is we've introduced associate trustees. Now part of that is so that we can get extra expertise without needing to expand our trustees because we've got quite a few already, but also the kind of the next step of that is for people who probably aren't quite ready for a trustee position yet, but have a lot of skills and a lot of experience to offer. And that's exactly one of those is about how do we get younger people in? Maybe as a associate trustee, they may never want to become a trustee, but we're getting the benefit of them and they're getting something that they can put on their CV and they're getting some experience and things. yeah. And just to add to that, I think ⁓ great to have CV and it's great to have experience in meeting people, ⁓ giving responsibility to younger people is so important and ⁓ ⁓

Amelia Cartwright: And just to add to that, I think it's great to have CV and it's great to have experience and meet new people. ⁓ responsibility to younger people is so important. ⁓ ⁓ me ⁓ a young person, I've learned so much more in the world of retail in these past like six weeks or so that we've been recording this podcast than ⁓ did on my three year degree. ⁓ was in theatre, so kind of explains. ⁓ I have both of these experiences and I know where I've felt more responsibility, understanding, excitement about what's to come. ⁓ ⁓ give young people a chance to ⁓ more responsibility and ⁓ ⁓ much they fly because yeah, we are definitely the next generation of change makers.

In-person participant 1: responsibility, understanding, excitement about what's to come. yeah, definitely give ⁓ young people a chance to have more responsibility and see how much they've learned because yeah, we are definitely the next generation of change makers. And just tying that in with EDI, ⁓ because it is in the book as well, it's really important though that when we're bringing people in, to these roles, whether that's somebody who's young or somebody who comes from a different ethnicity or ⁓ sexual orientation or gender or whatever, that we as a board are ready for that and have done some work ahead of that. Because the last thing that you want is for somebody like you to come into that as a young person and for everybody to treat you like they're your granddaughter, you're their granddaughter and be really patronizing to you because actually then that gives you a bad experience. and you will leave and you will badmouth our charity. That's a point. So actually as a board, if you're wanting to diversify, and you're right, there's a whole other podcast, but you have to sit and go, okay, so we're getting these people that are coming in and they are different. So how do we make sure that we recognize what comes with that difference and welcome that and make them comfortable and that they have everything that they need rather than saying, well, you've come into our world. And we're just going to carry on as if you're not at all different and have no different perspectives. Because that's not the point. Yeah, they've just ticked the box, haven't they? if there's one thing to take away from today, it's that retail thrives when it's treated as a strategic function, ⁓ backed by visible leadership, strong but balanced governance and inclusive values. ⁓ when CEOs and boards get this right, then those retail teams empowered to deliver sustainable income. impact and long-term growth.

Amelia Cartwright: And that's exactly where the charity retail consultancy can support charities, ⁓ helping CEOs, trustees and leaders strengthen strategy, governance and leadership development.

In-person participant 1: ⁓ And then there's our bespoke EDI training providing the back basics intro as to it is, ⁓ what role it plays in the third sector, ⁓ as well as deep diving into topics like unconscious bias, power and privilege, microaggressions and practicing active allyship. ⁓ It's definitely one of my favourite workshops to deliver online, especially in person because takes the subject that ⁓ some people can be really uncomfortable talking about and it brings that into the open and creates really meaningful conversations and more importantly action as well. So drop us a line if there is something your charity could benefit from and as I always like to say EDI is good for business and EDI is everyone's business.

Amelia Cartwright: EDI is good for business and EDI is everyone's business. And Steph, just before we finish, we have one last question for you. We like to ask every guest that we have on the podcast if you would like to give a charity shop shout out. So the part of the reason that we do this podcast is to celebrate the unsung heroes and the people who are doing momentous work and don't get talked about enough within charity retail. So do you have a shop, a person you'd like to shout out?

In-person participant 1: So do you have a shop, a person you'd like to show us out? I was going to say this is a bit like saying which is your favourite child. So I'm not going to do that because I get asked all the time, do you have a favourite shop? And I don't. But what I would like to really recognise is we have a lot of shops that are being really innovative and really creative and we have specialist shops and they are absolutely brilliant. And then we have the shops that just do charity retail really well. And they're delivering what their communities need in a way that they need it. And we need all of that. And yeah, I just think our retail team are amazing. Brilliant. Thank you so much, for joining us. It's been a really insightful conversation. So to all our listeners, if you've enjoyed this episode, follow the podcast, leave us a review and share it with someone involved in charity leadership or retail.

Amelia Cartwright: You can follow us on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn at the charity retail consultancy and also give Steph a follow. Would you ⁓ to tell people the many ways in which we can ⁓ you? ⁓

In-person participant 1: to tell people the many ways in which we can find you. So it's normally some version of Stephadoucet. So I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram, I'm on TikTok, and on LinkedIn is Stephadoucet. Fabulous. So that is all from us today. But as always, charity shops are full of stories, people, and potential that deserve to be taken seriously. And we love sharing those voices with you. So until the next episode, bye.

Amelia Cartwright: Bye!