Charlotte: Hello and welcome back to the Charity Shop Chat podcast with me Charlotte Greenwood. As always this podcast is powered by the Charity Retail Consultancy supporting charities with expert retail guidance, strategy and training to help maximise income and impact. And don't forget charity retail learning in conjunction with the CRA with almost 50 online modules for charity retailers. Unfortunately Mimi couldn't be with us today but I am delighted to be joined by a special guest co-host Hannah Wheat from the Charity Retail Association. Thanks Charlotte, it's great to be here. I'm Hannah Wheat and I joined the Charity Retail Association in 2024 as Communications Assistant. I also manage social media for the Charity Shop gift card and have been championing charity shops through my own social media platforms for more than a decade. I actually started my charity retail journey as a volunteer when I was 18 before moving into a paid role and since then I've worked with both national and regional charities to promote secondhand shopping and highlight the incredible impact charity shops have in our communities. I'm really excited to be joining you to put today's conversation. one topic that seems to come up in almost every conversation we have with charity retailers at the moment is people. ⁓ whether that's finding volunteers, recruiting shop managers, retaining great team members ⁓ developing future leaders. Absolutely. We spend a lot of time talking about stock, sales and profitability in charity retail, but none of that happens without people. And many charities are facing the same challenge. into the sector and give them a reason to stay and grow? And it's definitely something that's affecting organisations of every size. So whether you're a national charity retailer or a small hospice or a rural charity, they're still trying and struggling to fill vacancies, while others are thinking about who will lead their shops and retail operations in the future. timely because we're joined by two fantastic guests from this year's CRA conference program who are tackling these challenges from different angles. at RSPCA Derby and District, who will be speaking about creative recruitment, ⁓ and Marie Edgerton, Director of Development at St. Rocco's Hospice, ⁓ who will be sharing how planning and training programs can help build the next generation of charity retail leaders. Together we'll be exploring how charities can attract more diverse talent, recruit for values and potential, develop future leaders and create stronger teams for the long term. So grab a cuppa, turn the volume up and get ready for another brilliant conversation. Please welcome Leslie and Marie.

In-Person: Hello.

Charlotte: Hello! Welcome to the Charity Shop Jad podcast ladies. So easy one to start with if you want to do a quick introduction about yourself. Bit of silver black, where you from? What's your name? Where did come from? Hi I'm Leslie, so I'm from Derby RSPCA. I in Derby and been working in charity retail for oh gosh I don't know how many years. Started as a charity shop manager for a different charity and have been

In-Person: Hi, I'm Lesley, so I'm from Derby RSPCA, live in Derby, been working in charity retail for, oh gosh, I don't know how many years, started as a charity shop manager for a different charity and have been with Derby RSPCA for six and a half years now and absolutely love it. Okay, so hi, I'm Marie. I've worked in retail for 30 years and 13 of those have been in the charity retail sector.

Charlotte: with Derby RSPCA for six and a half years now and absolutely love it. Okay so hi I'm Marie and I've worked in retail for 30 years and 13 of those have been in the charity retail sector. I work for St. Rackrells a small hospice based in in Warmington I've been there for two years. So are you able to tell me what are the biggest workforce challenges facing charity retail right now? So for me, I think the recruitment process and how we make charity retailers attractive as normal mainstream retail. I think sometimes we are seen as the retail sector that hasn't got the same resources and therefore can't offer the same, whether that's salary, training, shining new shops at times. So it's how we engage that next generation around the pre-loved messaging, the hype around the influencers and actually bring that to what we are doing locally ⁓ where we haven't got the same presence as national charities and the same branding ⁓ awareness and attract those people and make us an employer of choice.

In-Person: and actually bring that what we are doing locally ⁓ where we haven't got the same presence as national charities and the same branding ⁓ awareness and attract those people and make us an employer of choice. Yeah I would agree with all of that I think there's a lot of challenges around recruitment. ⁓ I think ⁓ there's a lot of competition from kind of commercial and There's lots of jobs out there from other retail and hospitality and is trying to shout that stuff about why we're brilliant to work for and what's great about charity retail. And I do find that once people actually find us and discover what it's about, actually we've then got them hooked, but it's getting them hooked in the first place that's the difficulty.

Charlotte: difficulty. Yeah, I mean let's face it we can't afford to compete with commercial retailers on a salary unfortunately. We would love to but there's just not the budget there to do that so we do have to attract people based on their passion for pre-loved, support for the cause and like you say once you hook them in then we've all spoken to shop managers who are in there for life because they're just so glad that they're making a difference to their local community or for the cause that they're supporting or they just love the fact that they get to work with volunteers, they get a little bit more autonomy in the shops, you know, they don't have to follow this really strict VM guidelines. So yeah, we definitely have to kind of talk about more the pros. Yeah, I think we're definitely lucky as well in that we can be more creative and more innovative in the way that we think because we're not structured to all of those guidelines and branding ways of working. So actually that's a real opportunity for us to think differently. Yeah absolutely. So Lesley, your CRA conference session focused on creative recruitment. So what prompted you to rethink your recruitment process? I guess we were having quite a few issues with our recruitment. Partly it was trying to good candidates, so our pool of candidates wasn't really particularly strong. So we did some work around how we advertise the jobs and how we promote those.

In-Person: I guess we were having quite a few issues with our recruitment. Partly it was trying to find good candidates. our pool of candidates wasn't really particularly strong. So we did some work around how we advertise the jobs and how we promote those just to try and widen our reach and have a bigger pool of candidates. But I was having real issues with our interview process, even having rewritten loads of the questions and tried to make it as robust as possible, I was finding it wasn't really giving us what we needed. I did some interviews for a couple of, I had a shop manager vacancy and I had two deputy managers ⁓ interviewing for that and one of them interviewed really well and the other interviewed really poorly, but from what I knew of their work, it was the other way round and was thinking this isn't giving me what I need from the interview process. So we put ⁓ some creative ideas in place. So we still do a standard interview when we interview but we've added in some creative ⁓ exercises and things that people can do and we've ended up finding out so much more about our candidates through the process. So some of those exercises are done individually. So for instance, we might send them out to visit another charity shop and get them to write a report on it and come back. We might give them a time management exercise to do to see how they kind of handle a standard day in a charity shop. And some of those are group exercises. So we might get them to do a window display, or we might get them to do some sorting and pricing. So it's really kind of hands-on, normal charity shop stuff. And what we found was people really enjoyed that, they engaged with it, they loved the process. But we were really seeing what these people were like. actually not, can you talk about it? But actually, can you do it? Are you capable of doing it? And the other stuff we found was because we were doing group activities with it, we were really able to see how do those people work with us? Are they gonna be somebody who's gonna fit into our organization? because you're seeing actually, are they a leader? Are they a listener? There was all sorts of stuff we were able to pick up. And so it ended up, I started off just trialing it and it worked so well. We just do it for all our interviews now and it doesn't matter what the job is. That's how we kind of do the process. Yeah.

Charlotte: because you're seeing actually, you are they a leader, are they a listener, are they, you know, there was all sorts of stuff we were able to pick up and so it ended up, I started off just trialling it and it like, it worked so well, we just do it for all our interviews now and it doesn't matter what the job is, that's how we kind of do the process. Yeah. really refreshing to hear. I'm someone personally that does not do well in an interview situation and I've actually been told as much from interview nine. I think we're all such different people. Some people really thrive in an interview I wouldn't and that's something like that I would absolutely love so that's a really really great thing to hear. Would you say social media has helped you reach different audiences in any way?

In-Person: Yeah, so we've got a really good social media support at Derby RSPCA. Our team have spent a lot of time building that up. So it means that when we put things out online, we're getting a lot more impact and a lot more reach. And actually, with some of stuff, we've really changed how we've advertised our roles. Because we're an animal charity, that's a really lovely way we can kind of include things. ⁓ in our advertising. So we had ⁓ a lovely thing earlier this year. We had a vacancy, it wasn't actually in retail, it was for a receptionist and one of our team was fostering a dog and we ended up with photographs of this little puppy kind of ran by the phone and doing all stuff and we ended up kind of doing this really humorous thing of like we've got this vacancy and Dolly the dog wanted to apply. ⁓ But actually Dolly the dog is not suitable so we really need a human. So this first one went out and it's got loads of engagement and it kind of went a little bit mad. And then the next one was, know, Dolly's kind of fallen asleep on the job and you know, and there was these really cute photos. I know it's terrible isn't it? And then you've got people kind of responding, know, justice for Dolly, you know, it's kind of, it got a little bit mad.

Charlotte: the dogs are not suitable so we really need a human. So this first one went out and it's got loads of engagement and it kind of went a little bit mad and then the next one was you know Dolly's kind of fallen asleep on the job and you know and there's these really cute photos. I it when they do that. I know it's terrible isn't it? And then you've got people kind of responding you know justice for Dolly you know it's kind of... it got a little bit mad. So ⁓ Dolly got a lovely home out of it as well because obviously she got like a load of attention

In-Person: Dolly got a lovely home out of it as well, because obviously she got like a load of attention from it. But it was a lovely way of ⁓ spreading the reach, getting some really good applicants, but also actually showcasing who we are as an organisation and kind of using human and using kind of so people got to know us a little bit rather than just some kind of really staid standard advert. So that really helped us.

Charlotte: from it. But it was a lovely way of ⁓ spreading the reach, getting some really good applicants, but also actually showcasing who we are as an organisation and kind of using human and using kind of... So people got to know us a little bit rather than just some kind of like really staid standard advert. So that really helped us. Love that. Justice for Dolly, honestly. Just can't get the staff these days. Going back to your point about the creative kind of recruitment.

In-Person: you

Charlotte: That's Anne's point as well. It's such an inclusive way to do recruitment, isn't it? Because people shine in very different ways and from an EDI point of view, you must be able to attract more diverse staff through that way. So at what stage do you do those creative exercises? Is that first stage or do you do interview first and then go through to second stage or is it all at the same time? It's actually all at the same time. So we've kind of come up with a plan where we start people, we start two people off at the same time. One will do a standard interview, one

In-Person: It's actually all at the same time. So we've kind of come up with a plan where we start people, we start two people off at the same time. One will do a standard interview, one will do individual tasks, then they'll swap, then we'll bring everybody there, we'll do the group stuff together, then the first two go away and then we swap it over. So we've come up with quite a good plan. The first time I did it, we actually did it separate because we couldn't actually make a decision. So thought, let's do something different. So we did do a second stage. but because that worked so well, we've just integrated it into the whole process. It does take some organisation, but in my experience it's really well worth doing.

Charlotte: it's really well worth doing. Yeah it sounds it takes me back to my days where I used to do assessment days. That's what they used to call it back in the day and I don't know I'm looking at Hannah, she's far too young to remember that. But it sounds really scary but it's just like what you said you come in you do an interview you do some group tasks you might do a presentation or something like that. I love the idea of them going out to a competitor and coming back with a report because that's great intel for you and but it also means that you can see you know how are they able to assess opportunities, strengths and all that lot. And out of interest, do either of you give interview questions out beforehand? I haven't done that although I have seen that some people have and from what I have observed I believe that people do give good feedback when they receive that. I've been requested questions in advance once from somebody who kind of needed that support and so I didn't actually send out the specific questions because I wasn't doing that to everybody but I sent a kind of summary.

In-Person: haven't done that, although I have seen that some people have. ⁓ And from what I have observed, I believe that people do give good feedback when they receive that. I've been requested questions in advance once from somebody who kind of needed that support. So I didn't actually send out the specific questions because I wasn't doing that to everybody but I sent a kind of summary so that they could prepare and feel ready for it. But no, we don't normally send out questions in advance. I do find people when they come to the creative things because we give them a little bit of an idea of what's going to happen and we give them a time scale so they know it's going to be much longer than normal. And they often arrive really, really nervous because they go, I don't really know what we're doing and what's happening. but I always do a little bit of a time schedule for them so they get that and they get to see what they're gonna do and then they kind of start relaxing. And actually it doesn't take long for them to really get into it and by the ends, the vast majority are saying, I've really enjoyed your interviews, it was such good fun. So I really feel like you're getting to see the real people, not just like I'm in my interview zone, but actually you get to meet the real people.

Charlotte: Marie, your CLA session focused on succession planning. Why is this such an important issue for charity meeting? I mean, we've already mentioned ⁓ the resource that's behind running a retail operation. And we know that charity retail hasn't got the same ⁓ disposable kind of income. know, they're going towards causes rather than profits. And I think picking up on what Leslie was saying around that recruitment, know, recruitment costs a lot of money and time. It's about six and a half thousand pounds-ish. And that's if everything goes to plan when you put that all together. And I think if we can work on attracting that younger generation, we need to keep hold of them, don't we? And we can't offer the biggest salaries, but what we can do is invest in our people. Again, we mentioned earlier that we are people, organizations, working towards providing different areas of care. care or support. Usually for people, even in an animal charity, you're supporting the foster carers of those animals as they adopt and et cetera. So it's all about the people. So we must invest at every opportunity. ⁓ So doing that within your own team and actually building that succession planning in is for retail, you're preventing a loss of income as well because you've a smaller gap between a vacancy, you've done all the hard work as well, so when somebody comes in and you've done all the induction, you've done the training, you've covered the basics to a really good level and then you start to build on that, what you then start to see is people are ready-made and when you are doing your recruitment, actually you've not then continually got the same jobs that are going out, which again, know, locally that can be reputationally. ⁓ People start to ask questions, you know, they're always recruiting or you know what's going on there and actually there can be many many genuine reasons as to why we're recruiting. But certainly when you're in a small ⁓ community for hospices or even as a national you know you tend to have one or two shops in one area you know you're going out to the same kind of local Facebook community groups it's the same people that seeing those roles. So actually When you are developing people and they're the ones that become your ambassadors don't they? So they begin to speak really really positively around what you're doing. ⁓ And even if they don't stay, know, when we have the same with volunteers, we invest in them, they move on. You've created an ambassador for life and that is really important. So even if someone moves on, they're moving on ⁓ positively. And all that is really great work for for the charity. Can you tell us more about your trainee program and how that works then? Yeah, so what I notice was whether we was recruiting externally or whether we was having internal applicants, everybody was ready for that next role and certainly for an internal applicant that doesn't feel great especially when you you can't guarantee that another job is going to become available and you can't guarantee that they will that they will get that. So I started to work on a training matrix to say, right, okay, well, why aren't these people kind of cutting the mustard and moving through? And I looked at what the gap analysis was and I looked at where we weren't doing enough and actually what were our shared objectives. So out of that came a revamped induction program, first and foremost. ⁓ I mean, the induction program itself ⁓ is designed to be worked straight through somebody's probation period. It's not there to be designed and completed within a matter of weeks and it's really in depth. ⁓ And on top of that then there was your basics. So there was your gift aid, know, there was your report analysis. You know, for some of our part-time deputy managers, know, they say that's the manager's job. hey come on, let's work on if you want to work through how can we work and look and analyse and translate those numbers into practical solutions. So working on some of those basics and pulling together then once they've moved through their induction. those specifics and organizationally ⁓ led as well. again, feedback I would hear was, ⁓ we've been on such and such a course, or we've done our e-learning, but we can't quite translate that wholly because we do this a little bit different, or that was completely irrelevant. So I tailored through my years of training and all the resource that's available on the Charity Retail Association and other organizations. ⁓ out there and pulled together a list of where I felt that my skill set ⁓ fitted and created some modules with trainer notes and then delegate packs as well. What made it really specific with facts, figures and addressing that gap analysis and people worked through that and then at the end there was a self-assessment that lasted ⁓ for a few months where they can demonstrate their ⁓ actual learning and examples of and therefore the area managers can go back or our managers can go back and go yeah we can take so when they came to interview then they had real examples that they could bring that we had seen ⁓ and and that's worked really really well so I've had quite a few people that have gone through that trainee program and have secured manager jobs, have moved into a bigger shop and then that's freed a smaller shop and a trainee's moved into a managerial role thereafter. the success of that has been that when we have come to recruit, we're recruiting for a trainee manager. So people recognise straight away we're not ready for it, we're not expecting a done deal, that we are ready to invest in that. ⁓ and all that we ask from them is obviously they bring a level of experience with them but they bring the right attitude and those kind of things are things that you can't teach and it's really important for you as an organization where ⁓ you know we're built on values and behaviors and reputation within our communities that that determination ⁓ attitude is really important. And that level of talent planning is really important, isn't it? Because it keeps the motivation up with staff. They feel like they're being invested in, that they're given the training in the school, the tools, they're given the tools to kind of progress and do their job better. And so when the time comes, when a position is available to move into, they feel ready and prepared. So that's great. ⁓ So moving on to the fact that charity shops are always so busy. time to breathe, no time to go to the loo, you just have to get stock on the shop floor and get it sold. ⁓ So how can charities balance kind of short-term operational pressures with long-term people development? How do you get that balance right?

In-Person: I think it's really hard, isn't it? Because we can really be focused on the day to day and there's lots of pressures with kind of targets and trying to, you know, shops doing that. But unless we're investing in people, we're never going to grow. We're never going to actually get to that next level. So it's, I think it's really important from a leadership point of view to really see the bigger picture and actually shout the case for, you we need to be investing in these people, we need to be spending the time, the money and the resources where we need to, in order to ensure that they stay and that we're able to do a really good job in the charity shops. Yes, definitely. I have a little bit of a mantra with the team. They're probably sick of me always repeating it, but it's people first and sales will follow. I think that's really important. And sometimes we're so driven on the sales that ⁓

Charlotte: spending the time, the money and the resources where we need to in order to ensure that they stay and that we're able to do a really good job in the charity shops. Yes, definitely. I have a little bit of a mantra with the team. They're probably sick of me always repeating it, but it's people first and sales will follow. I think that's really important. And sometimes we're so driven on the sales that ⁓ our people focus follows after that. But of course it doesn't does it because a lot of the time you're back on the hamster wheel of recruiting. Yeah, absolutely. training and development are often the first things cut when budget's under pressure. It's the easiest thing to cut, isn't it? Because you don't necessarily put a budget against that day-to-day development. When you think about a training budget, you usually think on some big grand course that you're going to send people on. You don't actually think about the skills that are utilized within the team first and foremost. And what you do see is, I'm going to have to take people away, and therefore we haven't got somebody running the shops but actually you know if we don't invest in our people you're not gonna have anyone running the shops anyway so it's it's an easy one to do but actually sustainably it's not the right thing to do. Yeah it's looking at the short term not the long term isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah and I think it's difficult because you're right training does cost money sometimes you can do it internally you can do it you know use the expertise within your charity of course, but sometimes you do have to pay for it. And we find that with charity retail learning is that we're as affordable as we can be for charities because we appreciate the budgets, but then it's how people use that after they've been given that. If you just kind of go, here you go, there's a whole load of training courses online, go off and do them. No one's going to buy into that, are they? If you kind of set out a schedule and said, right, this month we're going to focus on these two modules because this is going to really relate to what's happening on the shop floor at the moment. You've got customers arguing about donations being turned away or things like that. So we're going to do a customer service module this month and then at our next meeting, we're going to kind of discuss the learnings from it. All of a sudden it becomes real life, tangible learning on the job that you can apply in your shops, in e-commerce, in the donation center. So you do have to support people with that level of training to bring it to life. I completely with that Sharla. And, ⁓ you know, it the maintaining ⁓ on after and the monitoring of how you make that training live. You know can't deliver training and expect results immediately and everybody learns differently and everybody will take ⁓ their time and an approach to get to the same objective but you have definitely got to make it a live ⁓ conversation that you are having with people, keep them motivated and share the results. I think that is really important. Yeah results you know it shows the impact doesn't it shows why we had to put some money and time and effort into this so completely agree. So if you could change one thing then about how charity retail recruits, develops or retains people what would that be? No pressure, get a magic wand. I think it would be nice to see... a focus and a resource on that area in particular because I think you're right when you said earlier that it is a topic that continues to keep being spoken about. So it means that we're not getting it right. And you know, we will have our HR teams but it's very rare and certainly, you you don't tend to see someone who will focus on that. ⁓ And therefore, you've got a HR team and a retail team that are trying to do everything well. ⁓ you know, I think even if it was a short-term plan with the long-term thinking behind it, to invest at the beginning, make sure that the hard work in recruitment, in the induction, and therefore what that employee life cycle looks like thereafter is really thought about and embedded because then at that point you you can get off that hamster wheel occasionally. Yeah that's really good. think one thing I'd want to add to that is actually really focusing on the potential values and behaviors of the candidates rather than necessarily their experience and just actually getting the right people in place because I think if you've got the right people the rest then follows. Completely agree. think skills are easier to teach than actually the will to do a good job, to have a

In-Person: you can get off that hamster wheel occasionally. Yeah that's really good. I think one thing I'd want to add to that is actually really focusing on the potential values and behaviours of the candidates rather than necessarily their experience and just actually getting the right people in place because I think if you've got the right people the rest then follows.

Charlotte: good work ethic, to work well with other people, so I completely agree with that. So what stands out to me from today's conversation is that people's strategy is no longer something charities can afford to treat as a nice-to-have and unfortunately in the world of charity, know, HR, marketing, volunteering, recruitment, they're all really stressed, they're all under pressure, they've got competing priorities and as retailers we want to get the job done so we end up just taking it all on ourselves. You guys have kind of been proof of that. recruitment, retention and development all have a really direct impact on performance. Absolutely. Whether it's attracting volunteers, recruiting managers or preparing future leaders, the charities invest in people are often the ones that build the strongest and most resilient retail operations. ⁓ The good news is that many of the solutions we've discussed today don't huge budgets. ⁓ They require intention, creativity and a commitment to developing talent. ⁓ and if today's conversation has inspired you to think differently about recruitment, leadership development or succession planning, then don't forget that ⁓ the charity retail consultancy supports with strategy reviews, training, leadership development ⁓ and organisational So it's time for our shop shout out. Leslie and Marie, who would you like to give a shout out to today? Any charity shops, volunteers, managers or teams doing brilliant things that deserve some recognition? I have to do a big shout out to my own team, don't I? It'd rude not to and completely unforgiving. So ⁓ thank you to all the retail team at St. Rocco's Hospice in Warrington. You are absolutely brilliant. We've gone through a lot of change recently. They are currently undergoing a new EPOS rollout while I'm here and they are all getting on with it, doing absolutely brilliant. Well done. always so painful those EPOS role-players. Keep the chocolates going, keep the biscuits going, keep the caffeine going. It's just, yeah, it's a change. The teal company have made it a lot easier for us, so a big thank you to them. Which teal company? Let's give them a shout out. E-productive. E-productive. Well done, E-productive. ⁓ I'm going to do the same because I'm really proud and love my team at Delby RSPCA Retail. So I'd like to give a shout out to all our managers. So Aviston, Belpe.

In-Person: I'm going to do the same because I'm really proud and love my team at Derby RSPCA Retail. So I'd like to give a shout out to all our managers. So Alverston, Belper, Chabston, Ilkeston, Long Eaton, Ripley and Spondon. I love the fact that you're all different. You're all creative. You all make those shop your own. ⁓ You're an absolute fantastic team ⁓ and I love working with you.

Charlotte: Chabston, Ilkestone, Long Eaton, Ripley and Spondon. I love the fact that you're all different, you're all creative, you all make those shop your own. You're an absolute fantastic team and I love working with you. Lovely. I mean I won't ask you to pick your favourite shop because that is like asking you to pick your favourite child. Yeah that would be impressive. No, can't do that. Thank you both so much for joining us today. We've loved hearing your insights and we know our listeners will take away plenty of

In-Person: Yeah, that would be impossible. No, can't do that.

Charlotte: practical ideas, I know I have. And if you've enjoyed today's episode, please follow the podcast, leave us a review and share it with someone who loves charity shops and charity retail as much as we do. can follow us on Instagram at charity chat and Facebook and linked at the charity retail consultancy. And ⁓ you guys tell us where we can find RSPCA Derby and St. Rocco's. you can find St. Ruckels on Instagram, Facebook, ⁓ and on LinkedIn. please follow us, you'll find all the latest updates there. Yeah, please find Derby RSPCA, we are on Facebook website, there is Instagram as well, but yeah, please do follow us and if you're local to Derby or any of the shops, do pop in and say hello, we'd love to meet you. And Hannah, if anyone isn't a member of the CRA, where can they find more information?

In-Person: you can find St. on Instagram, Facebook, ⁓ and on LinkedIn. Please follow us. You'll find all latest updates there. ⁓ Yeah, please ⁓ WRSPCA. We are on Facebook website. There is Instagram as well. But yeah, please do follow us and if you're local to Derby or any of the shops do pop in and say hello. We'd love to meet you.

Charlotte: you can find the CRA on all social media platforms. We're on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn. And of course you can find us online at charityretail.org.uk. us today. But as always, charity shops are full of stories that deserve to be told and we love sharing them with you. Bye. Bye.

In-Person: Bye, thank you.