Amelia Cartwright: Hello and welcome back to the Charity Shop podcast with myself, Charlotte Greenwood.

In-person participant 1: And with me, Mimi Cartwright. always, this podcast is by the Charity Retail Consultancy. ⁓ We support charities in retail guidance, training and strategic insights ⁓ to help them maximise income and impact. ⁓ And don't forget to sign up to the charity retail learning in conjunction with the CRA for practical sector specific training designed for charity retailers. Charity retail has never been more visible. It's a major income stream and it's a sustainability solution. It's often the public face of a charity and yet it still isn't always treated with the same strategic seriousness as other areas of fundraising. So what does it take to professionalise a sector?

Amelia Cartwright: is the sector specific training designed for charity retailers? Charity retail has never been more visible. It's a major income stream and it's a sustainability solution. It's often the public face of a charity and yet it still isn't always treated with the same strategic seriousness as other areas of fundraising. So what does it take to professionalise a sector or to influence policy and to raise standards nationally and who's responsible for driving that forward?

In-person participant 1: influence policy and to raise standards nationally and who's responsible for driving that forward? Today we are joined by someone whose career spans more than three decades in charity retail our guest has quite literally grown up alongside modern charity retail.

Amelia Cartwright: She has led multi-site operations, developed volunteer strategies, driven retail transformation and supported charities to professionalise their retail arms long before professionalisation became the buzzword. And alongside all of that, she has also served as chair of the Charity Retail Association Board, helping steer the direction of the sector at a national level. So when you talk about experience in charity retail, this is it. Real shop floor credibility, strategic leadership, governance insight, and a deep understanding of what makes retail succeed quietly causes it to fail.

In-person participant 1: we are proud to that she is also a senior consultant at the charity retail consultancy, ⁓ the organisation that powers this podcast. So not only she ⁓ bring decades of operational and governance experience ⁓ She actively supports charities today with retail reviews, strategy, leadership development and hands-on improvement work.

Amelia Cartwright: When you talk about experience in charity retail, this is it. She's seen the sector through recessions, regulatory change, the rise of e-commerce, sustainability shifts, a little something called COVID, and now a new generation of retailers redefining what charity shops can be.

In-person participant 1: she's also an avid volunteer with a lovely charity shop, ⁓ Oxfam in Oban, which I'm sure we'll get onto, ⁓ actively supporting her community and spreading her charity retail joy wherever she goes. ⁓ So whether you're a shop manager, a head of retail, a a volunteer or someone who's just starting out in the sector. ⁓ This episode will be packed with decades of perspective and practical wisdom. Please welcome to the Charity Shop Chat podcast, Vicky Benettes. ⁓

Amelia Cartwright: Yay, thank you very much. Makes me feel very old. Decades and decades and decades. So Vicky, tell us about your journey in charity retail and how it led to you working with the charity retail consultancy and becoming chair of the CRA board. Okay, so my first charity retail experience was I was a volunteer for the St Luke's Hospice shop in Sheffield. My mum was a nurse and as is the rule, when you work in hospice, your whole family gets involved. So I ended up, I have to say it was a bit of a PE dodge as well because it was on a Wednesday afternoon you could do PE. or you could go and do something useful for the community. I thought I'm going for that. So I volunteered at St Luke's first charity shop on Eccleshall Road in Sheffield and I liked it anyway and that was probably about 15 then and then I went and did a retail marketing degree in the late mid to late 80s and at the end of that thought I'm not really sure I want to use my blood sweat and tears to make shareholders wealthier so I thought I was gonna look for something different. saw an advert for a new Oxfam shop in Sheffield that needed volunteers and I went and volunteered with them. So that was the start of it. And then I ended up working with Oxfam as a deputy manager, then a page shop manager in Leeds, then as a district manager in South Yorkshire. Then I went to work for Crisis for a couple of years in London managing their volunteering program. That was my only non-retail because Crisis didn't have a retail arm then. And I was... I couldn't sit in an office all day. I was like, I need to move around. This is all about moving my furniture the whole time. So I went back to Charity Retail, moved back up to Leeds and started as head of retail for ⁓ St. Gemma's Hospice in Leeds. And I was there for 12 years. Then I went to Cats Protection as their head of retail for about three years. Then I ended up as head of retail and then income director, income generation director at Martin House Children's Hospice. And then... I moved to Scotland and I went to live in the middle of a field and at that point I joined Jane who I'd met. So Jane and I met, were both shop managers actually but we didn't meet when we were shop managers but we were both district managers in the same region in the north of England in the 90s and we met then and ⁓ she'd started the consultancy already and I'd done a few little bits and pieces with her and she kept saying just come and work with me, come and work with me and when I moved to Scotland I did. So that was seven-ish, eight years ago. Yeah, so that's it. And then of course, as you said, Mimi, I volunteer at my local Oxfam shop as well, in a full circle kind of way. That is quite the CV. ⁓

In-person participant 1: I know, portfolio career I must say. So was there a specific moment in your career when you realised charity retail was something really special and where you wanted to stay in the sector long term?

Amelia Cartwright: I've got to say it was the first day of my induction as a volunteer with Oxfam when I very first went. So basically it was a brand new shop and so we were sorting in the warehouse that they had in Sheffield at that time. and I sat down and I was given an induction and they talked about like what the impact of what I was about to do would have on people who were living in poverty. And I just thought I went all tingly and I thought this is what I want to do. This is what I want to work for. I don't want to go and feather somebody else's nest. This is what I want to do. that's what I did. So yeah, right from the start, day one. I feel so lucky. I just think it's an incredible, incredible privilege to be able to do a job that helps other people. know, it's like my, that's just amazing. I think that's a wonderful, wonderful gift. And the other thing that I love about it as well, Is just the joy of working with volunteers with such a of people. I think, you know, when was, I know ⁓ Jane had the same experience as well, ⁓ my business partner, ⁓ we like ⁓ working in my first Oxfam shop surrounded by all sorts of different people, I would never come across my regular life and ⁓ you know, people who are older than me, younger than me from different walks of life, different, you know, different life experiences, everything. And I think that that working with volunteers and amongst volunteers and being a volunteer is one of the things that's given me the most personal growth and insight into life throughout my whole life. So I think that's just such a gift. I'm very, grateful for it. Yeah, absolutely. So what are the biggest changes you've seen over the decades then? Well, I mean, I was thinking about this and I think it's a few things. One is growth, I suppose. So when I first started out in Oxfam, so it was like 1989, I joined Oxfam as volunteer. And I remember the British Heart Foundation shop opening in Sheffield. And that was like, wow. And the fact that there were, know, shops were not as prominent and regular and common as we see them now. And so... Certainly over the years there's been this enormous growth and so many more people, more organisations have got into charity retail which is fantastic because it's such a great platform for any organisation. And within that then of course there's professionalisation of the sector and going from that sort of... ⁓ I suppose if I think about the St Luke shop that I worked in when I first started, everything was cobbled together, it was great and we made money and stuff but it was basically an overflow from a room in the hospice that had been... selling secondhand stuff and they couldn't fit it in there anymore so they took a shop and sort of threw it all in there instead, know, and it was a good shop and it did okay but it was very much kind of like, you know, just a group of people coming together to try to make something work and that was a wonderful... Solving the problem, wasn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And of course we're much more intentional now, I think, in charity retail and, you know, we think about the space that we ⁓ take up and we want to present... We understand that charity retail... our shops tell stories about our charity and so it's really important to tell the right story about your charity and we're sitting here today in this incredible hospice, Prince and Princess of Wales Hospice, which is beautiful and you know I was just talking to Katrina who you've also interviewed saying you know maybe a decade ago their shops well just as this was built their shops didn't really reflect the quality of the hospice and they do now and they've really changed their shops too because those shops are telling that story of this charity story on the high street and I remember when I was at St Gemma's, my old boss saying that a couple of the shops that she inherited were a bit scruffy and one of them had a basement sorting that was below the water table so they were all in wellies and it all smelt damp and all of this kind of stuff and what she said is that's got St Gemma's hospice above the door, that's the hospice so we have to make sure that that reflects the organisation so if people need the hospice they... don't go, ⁓ this is awful shot and I don't want to go there because it's going to be stinky and awful and it's scary enough anyway. So I think that's been a huge part of, you know, the look and feel of shops, a big change. And I think the work that Jane did with Mary Portus, that again was another huge sort of shift. You know, I felt like as a sector, we sort of put our brakes on and sort of turned left a bit, you know, sharp left at that point. Because Mary was great at saying, it doesn't have to be the same old, same old boring. way that you present stuff, you can do things differently and boy, haven't we just, you know, I think that was a changing point, absolutely. So that kind of freeing up to go, actually, let's do things differently. So I think that's a big thing. And with that came that segmentation. So the fact that we're not just all selling everything, you know, we are focusing more on what customers want in certain areas. I mean, and that was interesting because when I was a shop manager with Oxfam, My shop sold furniture, Oxfam was one of the early furniture shop ⁓ organisations. And also we saw vintage clothing and all came from their recycling plant, Waste Saver, and that was in the middle of a student area. So I of kind of grew up with a segmented store really. So it's been great to see that happening more and people thinking a bit more carefully about what they want to put where and how that might work. And finally, I would say the big shift more laterally has been about focusing on the environment and kind of going, ⁓ actually, as well as doing all these other amazing stuff, we're really good for the planet as well. And let's talk about that. So that's been a big shift. And with that, of course, young people coming into the sector as shoppers, donors, volunteers. I always remember my first Oxfam shop in Sheffield, two 14 year old boys, roughly, standing by the door, shoving each other over the threshold going, ha ha, you've been in a charity shop, you know, really laughing. And that was kind of how they were looked at by young people. And now to see when I'm my shift at Oxfam on a Monday, you know, when the school shuts, all come, all the kids come in and I really, so yeah, it's really nice to see that sort of new generation. Yeah, I love that, the way that's turned it all around. It's now cool to go to charity shops. is, always was, they just took a while to catch on. ⁓ All good things. Exactly.

In-person participant 1: Finally we've learned as young people. And that's really nice to say because obviously you started in Oxfam where you had people that weren't young people who weren't wanting to come in and now it is a full circle moment where you're having like, floods of people coming in, younger, older, older generations. ⁓ And that's something that I think we should definitely work on as a sector is like how we accommodate and make... These places are accessible for everyone, all under the same roof. That's really exciting.

Amelia Cartwright: Totally. Yeah, it is. It is a really exciting opportunity. So, when...

In-person participant 1: So, with someone with all of your expertise that has truly seen it all, what are the non-negotiables for a successful charity shop, do think?

Amelia Cartwright: Why they top of that, I mean, like this might be a theme that comes through through this podcast is people. I think you have to have the right team and, ⁓ you know, a good shop manager makes all the difference, you know, and in order to have a good shop manager, I would say is you've got to have a good team supporting that shop manager, not just from terms of volunteers, but also in terms of area managers, heads of retail. think it's, know, the shop manager role is such a challenging one and such an important one. And I've seen. you know, the same shop absolutely fly with a different manager when that manager's, you know, got everything that they need in there and they're a great person. having a great manager who can motivate and excite their teams to do a really great job and to, know, when the best, one of the best shop managers I ever worked with, ⁓ which was at St. Gemma's and she was wonderful and she just, her team loved her and it was, you felt it when you walked in the shop, you know, she was a really funny person. I remember going in, I was doing like a shop check. We were looking around at the different things and I was like, you know, there's quite a lot of kind of cobwebs growing up in the corner of the window and she went, I am making a net curtain. She was so funny. And it was just this, you know, she just, she was really sarking, really funny and everybody loved her and it was palpable when he went in the shop. So think having a cohesive team where people want to be, why wouldn't you want to be in that place? So I think team is absolutely key and having good stuff to sell, you know, I mean that, and obviously that's a big challenge for the sector again, might be a bit of a theme in this, but you know, having the right stock in the right place, basic retail stuff really is you've got to be able to provide things that people want to buy. So making sure that you've got a good source of stock that you can turn over regularly. ⁓ And I think being really now, more importantly than ever, is being a really big part of your community, engaging with your community and being part of them. That sort of mutuality, I think, around charity retail community is amazing. It's similar to the hospice world. It's like we need them, they need us, so let's work together and engage. Yeah, absolute chat managers. are just unsung heroes. completely. It can be such a thankless job. It's a long job. It's physically demanding. It's mentally demanding that their salespersons, their counselors, know, marketeers and being asked to do more and more, think as well, you know, it's like, ⁓ could you sell online and can you do some social media and can you learn all these new computer skills? Because we now do all our volunteering stuff online and you know, all of this sort of stuff. And I think, you know, in retail's hard, you know, we run courses on customer abuse and things like that because people can be unpleasant in shops and dealing with shoplifting, all that kind of stuff. And I think it's just, it's a really, really, really hard job and it's not very well paid either. And that's an issue, but I mean, obviously you've got to make the profits and things like that, but it's a tough job that doesn't pay very well. I think exactly what you said, totally undersung under... appreciated and I think internally sometimes that really happens as well and I think ⁓ you know one of the things for charities is really you know people can I think sometimes be bit eye-rolly about shop managers and that drives me absolutely insane and I think you know in terms of like internal teams like maybe HR or ⁓ finance or marketing people can just get a bit eye-rolly about it and I think they don't understand it, they don't know what the role is like, you have no idea the pressure those people are under. Appreciate them, you wouldn't be like that about other colleagues that you work with on a day-to-day basis so just have a little think and give your head a wobble. Yeah, absolutely, it's the whole, know, go in there, see what they have to do on a day's Absolutely. When you talk to the trading boards and trustees and they're like, ⁓ why can't they just do this? Exactly. Why can't they just do that? And you're like... Do you know the opening hours of those shops and what they've got to fit in between nine and five? I know. Is insane. Yeah, yeah. And that whole thing about, you know, and of course we want to be commercial and all that kind of stuff, but this sort of assumption that's like, oh, we'll just open on a Sunday, open on a Lollibank holidays, back open on the day after Boxing Day, all these kinds of It's like somebody's got to do that. And that person's got live too. And if you don't look after those people properly, we can't as a sector afford to pay, you know, big salaries to anybody really, but you know, so. If you can't give it in money, give it in support, give it in love, give it in all of the things that you can do to make your shop manager's job as good as it can possibly be.

In-person participant 1: And Yeah, we're gonna talk about this you touch on this in a bit But what you just hop back to what you spoke about earlier about storytelling and the importance of storytelling that is so vital now like having

Amelia Cartwright: Yeah.

In-person participant 1: that transparency within your shops is so important for all your shoppers and then you need someone to show that and tell that story and that is just another string on the bow of a shop manager who's already had to deal with so much. they are because...

Amelia Cartwright: Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Totally, they just deserve so much respect. So going back to your volunteering hat on, how do you think volunteer expectations have changed? I think people kind of now... And I think this is particularly post-COVID. So it's two things, I think. There's post-COVID. obviously we saw a huge drop off in... volunteer numbers in COVID and some of those people came back but a lot didn't and I think it was a time that people kind of re-evaluated their lives you know and sort of thought well actually I'm quite enjoying this extra time I've got so I think maybe I won't go back and all that so we lost a lot of people and then also because we've got a lot of younger people coming in now which is fantastic so what that means is that there are fewer people and people with different kind of views on what they want to do so I think younger people expect greater flexibility. know, since when I started it was like, you would like to volunteer, that's great, you've got to be here at nine, you're going to stay until one, or you're going to come in at one and you're going to stay until five and you're going to do that every week for the rest of your life. It's that okay sign here. And that was kind of what it was like to be a charity shop volunteer. And you just can't, some people will be happy with that, but not everybody will be. And so I think having flexibility in your shift patterns, whether that's I can do six weeks now, but then I can't do it for... you know, six months or I'll come in when I can or this week I'll come in for two hours on a Tuesday and four hours on a Friday and then I won't be in. So all of that. And I appreciate that that makes it really hard to manage. And it's really tricky for a shop manager to rotor around that level of flexibility. But I think as a sector, we've really got to understand that that's what people are wanting. They want something different. So we need to work out ways of doing that, whether that's kind of being able to, you know, go on an app and choose your shifts and, know, put them in or however that works. And also about, I think there's kind of an education piece internally in shops. So one of the things that I've seen over the years is where perhaps if you have say somebody who's a student and they're saying, well, I can come for the six weeks, but then that's me. And sometimes what you get is a bit of resistance to that because they're kind of like, ⁓ well, what's the point? They're only here for six weeks. And so they're not made to feel welcome when they come. And there's a sort of maybe a bit of a hierarchical thing about, I come every week and you're only here for two hours. So you're not as important as I am and all of that kind of stuff. So I think, you know, we need to do some work around inclusion and making people feel welcome, whatever they bring in, however they bring that. So my volunteering, you know, my shop manager is wonderful. She's really flexible. do currently every other Monday afternoon, but sometimes if my work, it's Monday, I'm on Oxfam today, you know, it happens to be my off day, off week, but you know. she's really flexible about when I do and don't go in and and over and like during COVID, my father-in-law lives with us, he's really vulnerable, I just didn't feel I could go in at all, so I didn't go in for a year. So, and she was fine with that, you know, and so having that flexibility and being able to kind of work with people on that level, I think is really important. And I think, you know, I suspect, you know, lots of people coming in, they, you know, we're all much more interested in values and storytelling, all that kind of stuff. So it's making sure that that... connection is made when you walk in through the door and you are sharing impact with people. Definitely. ⁓ charity retailers treat their volunteers like fundraising, treat their donors. It's about stewardship and it's making sure that we tell that storytelling of when they come and volunteer, don't just assume that they've decided to volunteer with you for ease or convenience. tell them what that charity does, what the cause is, tell them about the other ways they can support you outside of volunteering, whether that's volunteering at events or signing up to fundraising things and all those kind of things. There's definitely stewardship journeys for volunteers that you can take them on to make them more invested. And if they are coming to you for just six weeks, if you do that journey properly, then they'll want to come back. Yeah, be prepared for it. Understand that somebody might want to come for six weeks or might want to come on an ad hoc basis. So what does that look like? And talk to them and ask them what they want to do and how they can contribute. I remember, I mean, everybody's got talents and things like that. You might have somebody who's just got these most incredible, I don't know, display skills or IT skills or e-commerce skills or something in your team. If you don't ask them, don't listen to what they're saying, then you might not pick up on those. I always remember. quite early on when I was with a consultancy, I went to do a job with hospice down in the southeast and I was in one of the shops and I was chatting to the volunteers and there was a lady who was, she was tidying up the shelves, the rails and I said, ⁓ what made you volunteer? And she said, ⁓ my husband and I set up the hospice and I was like, what? And she said, ⁓ yeah, my husband was a doctor and ⁓ he thought that palliative care was really necessary and there wasn't a hospice in the area. And so we worked together to set the hospice up and she used to like, you know, just, you know, she helped with all of that and then their son is now a trustee at that hospice. And it was like, you know, tingle moment. And I was like, well, you don't get that in Starbucks, do you? Do you know what I mean? It was that whole thing of just like, wow, that story in that is there standing there in that in that person. Like, and that's and I really believe that we need to get those stories out of those von C's and say, you know, get them to tell their stories because that's the other thing I think like charity shops are packed full of stories.

In-person participant 1: Have a nice

Amelia Cartwright: with the product of where it's come from, where it's going, what the money's paying for, the volunteers. It's a treasure trove.

In-person participant 1: and I do think that ⁓ volunteers ⁓ to be retained, then you need to sure that your shop managers are being looked after so ⁓ that can trickle down. same that like us, ⁓ especially my generation, and I know that is true, we want like ⁓ the we need accessible. ⁓ ⁓ ways of working, that's just how we seem to be. ⁓ And is like charity, third sector and charity retail, they are the right places for that. ⁓ But that means that we need our shop managers to have the autonomy to be able to allow that. yeah, there needs to be a big shake up there, I think, in order to retain those volunteers, 100%.

Amelia Cartwright: I just don't want to have the autonomy to allow that. there needs to be a big shape up there. I that's the thing that's going to happen. Yeah, completely agree. Absolutely. That's the other thing that I learned quite early on is that my motivation, when I first volunteered with Oxfam, basically I was... I'd graduated, my mother had kicked me out and said, I'm not keeping you any longer, leave. So I did, I went got myself a bed, sit and worked in a deli for 15 hours a week. And I volunteered at Oxfam and that was what I did. And I went in because I thought I need to do something. I need to get something on my CV. But like I said, you know, the minute I heard that story, my reason for being there totally changed. So I'm here for the people that we're helping. And I think that's really important to track. is people's motivations and why they're there and what they want to get from it. And you can influence that motivation if you support somebody well. it might be that they've come in for the cause, but they'll actually find that there's a great career opportunity for them. So it's about talking, listening, empowering, all of that kind of stuff.

In-person participant 1: And whilst it's so, it feels increasingly difficult at the moment to be able to like raise your voice and stand up for what you believe in, ⁓ a great way to do that is through volunteering ⁓ and a great way to feel like you're making a difference in a world that is increasingly hard to do that is through showing up in your charity shop. So that should be something that is pushed as well. really,

Amelia Cartwright: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel that, you know, I I apologize for the fact that Oxfam feels a bit like my spiritual home. You know, I started there politically. I agree with the work they do. think ending poverty is a really good thing. They stand up for women, you know, all of so. So for me, going to an Oxfam shop as opposed to going to a different kind of shop is good because I'm there with my people, because most of the people who volunteer in Oxfam are kind of have the same values as I do, you know, and in the same way that people who go and work in a hospice shop. quite often there'll be people who've maybe had a family member, a friend or loved one cared for by the hospice. So they will find a community there that works for them. you know, it's a... Yeah, building your, you know, finding a space that's good for you and allows you to be the best person you can be.

In-person participant 1: So moving then from shop floor work, should trustees understand better about charity retail?

Amelia Cartwright: I think that's a really good question and I think that retail, so I always think about like a trustee board and quite often they're made up of people with specialisms that relate to that organisation so you might, for example, in a medical charity have a clinician on the board. One of the things that you sometimes get So, know, and I would say is that, you know, if you're an accountant or a fundraiser sitting on that board, you're unlikely to really push back or have a very kind of deep understanding of what the clinical side of stuff is. you maybe just step back a bit. Most people go shopping at some point in their lives. So everybody thinks they're a retailer. And so that means that lots of people have kind of an idea and an input about retail, which is great because they're interested. perhaps what we need to understand is that there needs to be a bit more information behind that opinion. And I think it's I would never do anything or say anything that means that a trustee isn't going to be expressing a ⁓ point of view or engaging with or thinking about retail because it's so important because actually sometimes that is lacking or like I say comes ⁓ in a less informed way. I think organisationally for leadership, so for the heads of retail, ⁓ they should be working with trustees and working with their senior leadership team to build that internal engagement to help. everybody who's in leadership in the organisation understand the value of charity retail. And of course people look at money in the till and charity retail is an expensive way to raise money. There is no getting away with that. If you look at the ROI on a, for example, if you employ somebody to do legacy work, the ROI on that person, on that role will be massive compared to charity retail. So it's quite easy to get a bit scared about, you know, we've got this massive investment and actually we're only making like 30 % profit or something. But it's so much more than that. I think, ⁓ know, charity retail, obviously it's about profile. I always say if Oxfam didn't have shops, who in the country would know about Oxfam? know, ⁓ knows about Oxfam because ⁓ got shops. ⁓ Research, they've got shops. I obviously they do high profile events and things like that now, but ⁓ British Heart Foundation, it's their retail presence that has brought their ⁓ to prominence. And I know like a few charities who've done surveys around how do you know about us. It's from retail. So it's so important that that first impression is right. And that first impression is not just about people in that shop. It's about people standing at the bus stop opposite on their way to work every morning. It's about walking past after, you know, on an evening after it's closed. So it's not, you don't have to go in there to get that impression. So it's about saying like from the outside in through all of the people, through the way that you work, everything that, that. tells that organisation story and it raises the profile with your community, engages with your community. All of those people that walk past or go into those shops, that's a huge, huge, huge, like that's a touch point for all of those people for your organisation. So if you think, you know, about, you know, say you make, I don't know, a thousand sales in a week, that's thousand people that your organisation has had an opportunity to be in touch with. All of the volunteers, and then if you talk about kind of a deeper relationship, all of those volunteers, you know, they're, I don't know, 19,000 volunteers or something in the sector. All of those people are people that the organisation can grow with, you know, those people might end up leaving legacies, you know, they're telling their friends about you, you know, it's such a massive, massive part of your profile and what people think of you and how they relate to you. So having an understanding that retail is not just about what cash is in the till. but also those other implications in terms of profile, in terms of other income that comes in that is not attributable to retail. So here's an example. When I went to Cats Protection, literally as I joined, the regional manager for the North, I was based in Leeds, the regional manager for the North, Remy went, ⁓ my God, thank God, we're opening a shop about two miles away from where you live. Please, please help, because we don't know what we're doing. I kind of, it was literally like across the road from where I lived. We opened that shop and a week later, there was a bus stop outside of it, a guy got off the bus, walked in the shop, handed over a cheque for a thousand pounds. He said, my auntie's just tired. She said, want a thousand pounds to go to an animal charity. I saw you, here you are. And that, you know, that money would never have gone into cat's section if it hadn't been for that shop being there. So there's so many different ways that it touches people and it engages with people. that, you know, it's about an organization making the most of those opportunities, I think. and understanding that impact more widely and really looking into it, I think. I think there's sort of interesting work to be done around. Well, one of the things is overlaying your retail locations over your supporter spreadsheet, a database and saying where does, where's our money coming in? And quite often you will get that real halo effect from shops that you get much more support clustered around where the shops are. So that's a good exercise to do for people, I think. ⁓ That's great tip for our listeners. yeah. So I think there's, and also if you're thinking about opening a shop in an area, do some research about your brand awareness before you open that shop and then go back 12 months later and see what that looks like now. And then you can actually start to, you know, say you can, you can put that, lay that down and you can say, look, our brand awareness has gone up by X percent since we had a shop, you know, it starts to really help people understand the impact that having a shop there can have. And I think Internal engagement generally is a massive, massive part of a head of retail role, I think, but it should be everybody's responsibility. people who do not work in shops should be going to the shops and spending time there, understanding what the challenges are, hearing the stories from the teams, the customers, volunteers, seeing the work that they do in order to be able to take full advantage of all of the things we were just talking about. And vice versa, if you're expecting your shop manager tell your charity story, they need to know what that is. So they need to understand that. And that might mean coming to a hospice or going to an animal rehoming centre or hearing stories about how you're helping overseas or whatever your charity is. But it's that two way process and really keeping retail at the heart of your organisation. Because quite often, it's shops can be the only locations where there are people working that is not the central location for the charity. So it feels quite other. And I know in my roles, I've always worked really hard to connect the two and keep them sort of talking to each other.

In-person participant 1: And just to go into that then, if someone's listening to this now how would you go about that? ⁓

Amelia Cartwright: Thanks for watching! Thank you for asking that question. That's very good. My little soapbox. Yeah. So really simple things. So like, for example, making sure there's always a retail store. If you've got an internal newsletter, always have a retail story in there. There's lots of stories in retail, as we were just saying. Tell those stories, talk to your teams. ⁓ So it's constantly on their radar. Like when I was at Martin House, we used to have like a standup meeting every Monday morning for all the different departments. We always used to say how much the shops are to last week. Shops took X thousand pounds. We did this, that and the other, you know, a couple of sentences, but it was just always there and people understanding that. So there's those little things that you can do. There are things like buddying schemes. So you might want to say to your team. So the shop managers can buddy up with like a non-retail person vice versa. So it might just be that they chat every now and again, or the non-retail person might come and work in the shop or the... shop person might spend a bit of time working in the other person's team, just sort of getting to know people. Certainly with fundraising, particularly community fundraising, I think that's really important, having those connections at a shop level. because quite often it's just like having that personal relationship is really important. It just makes it easier to pick the phone up and go, oh, I know you, so I'm going to tell you about an opportunity or a challenge or something. But I'll give you an example that we did, which was a bit of a slightly bigger thing, was when I joined Martin House. They used to have a week, they may still do, had a week where they would, the hospice wasn't there for respite care, is it primarily offered. And it was, so they didn't take any patients in for a week and they did all of the ongoing professional development training for the whole team. And one day of all of that, they would bring in everybody. So all of the retail team would come. Just before I joined the retail team, the year before they'd come in and they'd all, they arrived at the event, which was in a marquee in the gardens. There were not enough chairs, so people didn't know where to sit. They were all kind of like, was all, they just had some news which had kind of been difficult for them all to process. So they came in with that fresh in their minds. And so we're like a bit like, and then brought that to each of their tables. So it was this really difficult kind of situation and everybody felt awkward. And I remember thinking, if you're a charity retailer, and you're going into the hospice, might never have been before. You don't know the names of anybody. You assume everybody else knows each other. They're all pals. You don't know where to get a coffee. You don't know where the loo is. It's not your world. You might feel uncomfortable because it's a hospice or whatever it So you've got to remember all of those things. And so what we did the next year was we did a pop-up shop. So we said, right, let's have a pop-up shop alongside the marquee, which is where all the meeting is. Each shop contributed a department. So they all wanted handbags, clothes, wanted shoes, wanted books, you know, and we set up a pop-up shop and through the whole week, whenever there was not work going on, that shop was open and it was staffed by the shop teams. So they'd come in and they would serve. So we sold loads of stuff to all of it, to the nursing team, the clinical teams who were like, oh my God, this stuff's amazing for a start. So that got them out into the shops a bit more. The shop managers were on the ground. knew, they felt... confident in a shop, know, they knew what they were doing. So it created, it brought their world to this other world. And it was just great. It was such a positive, it was such a turnaround. needed to be, it was such a turnaround from kind of where they'd been before. So, know, from tiny little things that you do every day to kind of bigger events and stuff like that, I think, you know, there's lots to do. I think the thing to always think is, it's got to be, have a presence, keep talking about retail, bang your drum. and don't forget about it don't assume as well.

In-person participant 1: And like that authenticity that that Martin House created in that moment, ⁓ I think is so valuable. ⁓ We're all here, like we're all people who are here to support other people. And so by having that authenticity and showing that how ⁓ valued your team are, whether they are clinical, retail, just showing that shared value and the shared responsibility that we all hold to fight for these. Missions is, yeah, so valuable for everyone.

Amelia Cartwright: It does remind me of a point that was raised in one of our other episodes. So Steph from St. Oswald's Hospice, she said that she thought the reason why some heads of retail are often overlooked by their fundraising counterparts for director of income generation roles is because head of retail tends to be a little bit more siloed. People's, know, exec teams, CEOs, areas of the charity tends to think of heads of retail as just shops. So how do you kind of integrate into the charity because fundraising that's very natural isn't it? They've got to fundraise for that cause but with charity retail You've got to make that a little bit more obvious on how we support the charity and that's a great example from you about how they've done that Yeah, it's the social value isn't it isn't sometimes it's not just the money in the till it's the social value and actually you might get more people using your charity for the services that you provide because they've experienced what you do in the shops. absolutely.

In-person participant 1: So yeah, to go into that a bit further then, for heads of retail listening, what should be on the top of their agenda right now, do you

Amelia Cartwright: one of the things that I think is the most valuable thing that a head of retail can have or create is a strategy, a retail strategy. And it is one of the things that we talk about the most in the consultancy when we're doing reviews. Have you got a strategy? Some happily do, quite a lot don't. And some people say, oh, it's part of our income generation strategy, or it sort of sits within the main hospice strategy. Well, I think that's great if you're giving it a nod, but create your own. Make sure you have a vision. You need to create a vision with your team for retail and that will give you your priorities. It will give you your sense of direction. It will make everybody pull together in the same way if you do that right. So I think understanding where you're going and how you're going to get there is really, really important. And so I think, you know, make sure that you have a strategy, get that in the bag. ⁓ Even if you don't, even if that's not what other departments... on your kind of level do, I still think it's worth doing. And, ⁓ you know, being like I say, I always say start with the organisational strategy because people go, ⁓ right, retail, that's the money part of the organisational strategy. We need to make money to deliver our service. But actually, there's lots of ways that charity retail delivers organisational strategies in terms of engagement. for example, we want to, you know, your organisational strategy might be to raise profile. Well, charity retail does that. It might be to move into different regions. Charity retail can help you with that. You know, there might be stuff about investing in our people. Well, don't forget your charity retailers. You know, so there's all sorts of stuff. So I always think start with your organisational strategy and look, how can we develop a strategy that delivers those goals? Because that's ultimately what you're there for. So have a strategy. That would be my first thing. And I think that, you know, the The other thing that's really, really important is about community engagement and thinking about where are your shops, who are your teams working with, have you given your teams what they need in order to be able to work well with that community? So a really good example is about stock and accepting donations. So I would say if we can ever not turn a donation down, that's a really good place to be. And we have no idea what those stories are behind. those donations. They can be all sorts of stories. It could be, it's been raining, our kids have got loads of stuff I want to get rid of, fair out, I'm taking advantage and I'm going to pull it all out and I'm going to take it all down the charity shop. It be that. It might be that a loved one has died and it's been a very difficult time for you and you've had to go through all of the things and take that stuff into a charity shop to donate. So, and anything in between. But we as charity retailers can't assume any of that and we want to make sure ultimately those people have thought about us, they've gone to the trouble, they could have taken it to the tip. They've got to put it in the bin, they've to have sold it online. They've come to us. So accepting that donation is really, important. However, of course, for in a shop basis, if you are working in a shop and you're on your own, which is quite often happening now, so we've got shop managers loan working quite regularly because of the, you know, lack of volunteers and the cost of extra staff and all that kind of stuff, and you're up to your eyeballs in it and you're... stock pens are all full and you've not been able to sort because you've been on your own for two days and you feel it's unsafe for you to accept that product, you can understand totally why somebody might say, I'm sorry, I can't take that. Now, you can understand why they might do that, but for that donor, that donor might think, well, I'm never going to go there again because they never take my stuff, even if it was just once. So organizations need to make sure that you are not putting in your managers and your shop teams in a position where they have to turn it down. So for example, When you're setting up your shop, make sure that you've got plenty of ways to safely store the stock. When you're running your shop, if you feel that you are getting to a position where you're getting too much in a great, lovely position to be in, build something in to get that stock moved out so that that person can still accept it. So, you know, we expect shop managers to say yes, but we have got to give them the tools to do that safely. So I think that's a really, really, really important part of it. And through that, then you build your community engagement because you're never saying no and you are welcome. know, everybody's welcome and your shop manager isn't frazzled and all of that kind of stuff. So you can start to sort of think about that community engagement and, you know, being able to, for example, you know, maybe get people who want to run events in the shops. And I know you're speaking to Katrina and Louise from Restore, which is the next door neighbour to my Oxfam shop. They are next door to us. And that's an amazing example of events and community engagement in the shop. So that'll be a really interesting episode too. So I think that's another thing to think about. And I think it's one of those things that in the day-to-day sort of operational kind of running around doing things, managing people, all that kind of stuff, community engagement can get lost. So I think that's a really good thing to kind of put in your strategy. All is better strategy. And I think the other thing as well is about innovation and it's hard to innovate and risk. do risky things when there's not much money around, I appreciate that as well. But I think if we don't try different things, we never know. we know we've got a challenge with stock right now, we are seeing the decline in quality, which to be fair, we've been looking at for years, to be honest, but I think it's more probably obvious now given the ability to sell online and through third party sellers and things like that. But we can't rely on the fact that we're going to get that steady stock stream of good quality stuff coming in all of the time. And especially if people aren't moving house, that often means that you don't get more stuff in as well. people might be keeping things for longer because they want to be more sustainable. So by the time it gets to us, it's less saleable, all of that kind of stuff. So be innovative. Think about what other things can we do within our retail operation or kind of as a sort sister to our retail operation that is going to secure. ⁓ income for the organisation into the future. innovate and, you know, and again, talk to your team because they will have some really brilliant ideas. You know, don't assume that people in the shop don't know because they really will know. Absolutely. They will have some great ideas. back to your strategy point, I think that's the one lesson I learnt the hard way when I first started out. So I used to write my strategy, create the strategy, three years, one years, whatever that might be. But I used to do that with my director, my CEO, the board, trustees, all of that. And then we would land that. with the shop managers, the e-commerce, the donation center, et cetera. And I thought, ⁓ my God, what am I doing? These are the people on the ground doing it every day. They speak to our customers every day, our donors, they interact with them all the time. They should be giving me ideas of where the strategy should be going. So we planned an away day for, I think, June, and then we had to deliver the strategy by, I don't know, November. And I was like, let's use that away day. Let's have a whole afternoon and talk about where do they see us going. what direction do they think we should go in? What ideas should we be implementing? And let's build that into the strategy rather than just landing this, I don't know, you know, 10 page document on them and say, this is what we're going to do, guys. Off you go, off you trot, go and do it. And let's actually get them, you know, given their own ideas. Because they're the ones that know what's going on. Yeah, completely. And you're not going to get by on if you just give somebody some. And it might be that speaking to them and not speaking to them, you might have ended up with exactly the same document. Yeah. But that's not the point. You don't want stuff done to you. You want to be part of that conversation.

In-person participant 1: And it goes back to that conversation of inclusion where like we need to value our shop managers so this is one way that you can value them like and they can give so much value to you. It's a win-win situation isn't it?

Amelia Cartwright: completely. And I think as well about diversity of thought and diversity of experience that you know the bigger so quite often what we'll see when we're working with charities is actually the retail workforce is a really diverse workforce that completely represents the community so I think about like one charity that I work with in the southeast of England and their diversity figures if you like for the hospice are are really good and that's because of retail because they're in, they have shops in areas where there is a really diverse community. So that's fantastic. It's really, really good. And that's very different to the actual hospital itself, which is actually primarily white, middle-class, age, all that kind of stuff. And so, what a gift, ⁓ my gosh, you've got a shop, workforce of volunteers and staff who are really diverse, who can bring all sorts of different experiences, access to different communities. different perspectives that can just open all these doors for you. So why wouldn't you want to talk to those people and hear from them? Yeah, definitely. It sounds so obvious when you say it, doesn't it? And I think it's hard because it takes longer to do it like that. When everybody's under pressure, it's really hard. If you're head of retail, you've got a million things to do. You've been pulled in loads of different directions. Most of them are operational. Retail is that thing I remember when I was a shop manager in Leeds. been away on the Saturday night, I came home to my flat on the Sunday, I'd been burgled. And like, it was just awful. And I was like, oh God, you know, and it was like, I got back late and you know, and it was, and it was awful. Anyway, the next day my deputy manager was off, I knew if I didn't go in, the shop wouldn't open. So I had to go into work the next morning and I was sitting there at the till thinking, my God, I think they've taken my camera that my grandparents paid for for my 16th birth, you know, and just, and it was horrible, but it was that kind of, you know, the world's a stage, you know. Retail is you've got to turn up and you've got to open the door and there are operational things happening now that you've got to deal with. so that, you know, if it's raining and the ceiling's leaking or, you know, all of that kind of stuff means that being able to kind of do big consultations with your team for strategy or even think about strategy is a hard thing to make time for, but I think it's so worth it. Yeah, absolutely. you've had unique of serving as chair of the Charity Retail Association board. So with that experience, we're obviously in a moment of transition with the current CEO stepping down and new leadership coming in. What do you see as the biggest priorities for the next CEO? And where do you think the CRA needs to be bold over the next five years? ⁓ Well, I think the first thing say is what an amazing job ⁓ Robin has done. the team at the CRA. We are so, so fortunate to have such an amazing sector body and, you know, they've come on leaps and bounds, well, through the whole time that I've known them, but particularly under Robin's leadership. So I'm sorry to see him go and I'm wishing him a happy retirement. Lucky him. Anyway, but what I would say is that any change in leadership can be a challenge. know, people come into a new organisation and they want to put their stand. it. Whoever joins is not going to do or be the same as the person before. So I think the important thing is to understand that and to kind of allow for that change process and to help people through that change process so everybody kind of settles in and I think the board has a really key part to play in that because ultimately the CRA exists to sort of support the sector, serve the sector, so you know there are some really phenomenal retailers sitting on that board and within the membership. I think it's really important for whoever comes in to listen to what the board have got to say and for the board to understand that they're reflecting what members want. So think that's a really sort of key part of it. And I think that, you know, really those voices have got to be at the heart of everything that the CRA does. But equally, the CRA, one of the things that I think is really wonderful about them, particularly for smaller charities, is, you know, like the policy work that they do is phenomenal. And that's out with most of our experience. You know, we don't know, it's heads of retail, don't necessarily know about that kind of stuff. So they're really good at guiding and leading with that. And I think that John Mail, who does that is really, really good at it. And I think that like COVID was a fantastic example of how well they, you know, lobbied an influence government in terms of, you know, supporting our sector. So I think ⁓ an eye on that ⁓ stuff, keeping ⁓ voices at the heart of the sector and I think really understanding where our challenges lie. I I see our challenge as stock. I think that's going to be a massive challenge for us moving forwards. ⁓ so understanding those challenges, seeing them coming and being ready for them and sort of helping prepare the sector ⁓ be able to kind of roll with whatever comes next. yeah, no, that's fair. think I think your right stock is going to be the challenge. It's the quantity and it's the quality. It's just mountains of lower value goods. I think it's quite easy to be there with your kind of golden era glasses on going, ⁓ the quality is so poor. It's not the same. keeps declining. And at what point do you go, actually, this is just the quality we're getting. It's not declining. This is just a standard of quality. So what do we do to shift more volume? Yeah, basically. Yeah, absolutely. They're great. So, what stands out in this conversation is that whilst the sector evolves, the fundamentals remain. Clear standards, strong leadership, confidence in pricing, investment in people, and charity retail works when it's treated like professional retail. And that doesn't mean just income, it's visibility, sustainability, and community presence, because shops are often the most accessible part of a charity's brand.

In-person participant 1: And is where the Charity Retail supports organisations from retail and operational audits to ⁓ leadership coaching and strategy days. We help charities strengthen foundations so they can with confidence because experience is powerful, but structure makes this scalable.

Amelia Cartwright: this is exactly where the charity retail consultancy supports organisations from retail reviews and operational audits to leadership coaching and strategy days. help charities strengthen foundations so they can grow with confidence because experience is powerful but structure makes it scalable. ⁓ before we wrap up, it's time for our shop shout out. ⁓ Vicky, is there a charity shop or social enterprise or initiative you'd like to give some love to? Well, you might imagine. The first one I'm going to take us I've got to is my Oxfam shop in Owen, which is an amazing shop. It does really well, of course, but it does. It's a great shop and we do loads of source by Oxfam, the new stuff we do. We've got a huge book section and then all of the usual, you know, clothing and everything else. But it's a it's a really brilliant shop. We serve locals and tourists. I love hearing all the different accents of all the different people when they come in. It's great selling. Scottish stuff to Americans and all that kind of, I love it, I love it. It's just a really great community shop. I've got to say a big shout out to them, but then also to our next door neighbors, Restore, who, and to the community shop, which is this community interest company, which is in Lockgillped, which is South of Oban. And both of those shops are really amazing. So Restore, you'll hear about more on a different podcast, but they are a group of charities who came together to be more effective working together, who, They've got a food redistribution, the community larder in there, they do workshops, they do repairs, they do all of that kind of stuff as well as ⁓ selling stock. And then the community shop in Loch Gilpeth, that was actually a Mary's Meals shop, which was a Scottish charity that had a handful of shops that pulled out of retail. And the community didn't want to lose a charity shop there, so the landlord... invested in the building and together set up a community and just company and they've set up a community shop which serves ⁓ the little town of Lockgillped and it's just amazing and it's affordable and it supports people with vulnerable adults in terms of volunteering. It's got a little space we can have a cup of tea and a blether, you know, it's just a really great example of complete community engagement. I'm very lucky to be doing some work with them at the moment as well, so that's fantastic. But they're They're amazing. ⁓ they're kind of one-offs, local to me, and I love them. So yeah.

In-person participant 1: thank you so much. ⁓ So thank you so much for joining us for such an honest and strategic conversation today. ⁓ you have enjoyed this episode, follow us on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn at the Charity Shop chat ⁓ at the Charity Resale Consultancy. ⁓ won't ask where we can find you because... ⁓

Amelia Cartwright: You're welcome. the charity result consultancy, I won't ask where we can find you.

In-person participant 1: So leave us a review and share with someone who cares about the future of charity retail.

Amelia Cartwright: share with some And that is all from us today, but as always, charity shops are full of stories and we love sharing them with you. So until the next episode, bye.

In-person participant 1: Bye!