Mark Seguin: Hello everybody, Mark Seguin Minnesota Swim and Vibe with the Vibecast with a special guest on a special topic today. We are going to talk about strength training, aka Dryland with Jack. Welcome, Jack. Tell us a little bit about yeah, Jack: Yes, sir. Thank you for having me. Mark Seguin: no, always love to talk this stuff. And I, as we talked a little bit beforehand, there is usually a lack of information. Well, not a lack of information about strength training for swimmers, but a lack of, I think, reliable information. And while Jack: Totally. Mark Seguin: Go ahead. Jack: I was just gonna say, yeah, especially in the age of social media, there's just so much information that it's hard to decipher what is valuable information and you know, what is maybe older science that we haven't, you know, kind of turned the corner on, right? and so that's what I'd like to be able to help with is kind of moving swimming, you know, the sport of swimming in that direction of high performance training outside of the water. Mark Seguin: Absolutely. So tell everyone, for those not familiar, a little bit about your background and how you got into the the strength training for swimming field and what you've been up to lately. Jack: Yeah, totally. So, believe it or not, I know everyone's hesitant when I say this, but I actually never swam growing up. I was a cross country basketball lacrosse player. you know, went to college and studied kinesiology, the study of movement. got my degree started out in the field while I was still working on my degree, working at a gym where I was training Vikings players. Then moved on to actually the the hockey sector, training pro college and junior hockey players. and throughout my time there, I was looking for a role where I could start to lead. And I I found a job at my my current workplace, which is Odom Health and Wellness, and started working there about three years ago now. And we are connected to the Aqua Jet Gym. We're in the same building as Aqua Jets. Their pools right across the hall. And so I kind of just got thrown into swimming. And you know, my philosophy on swimming, or on you know, training sports that you haven't played, do I think I could go coach swimming as a sport coach? Absolutely not. but can I learn the demands of the sport and the body mechanics to then train kids in dry land? Definitely. that being said, Within the past year, I have really decided to go you know, much like most things, I try to go all in. And so in this past ye t totally. Well Mark Seguin: That's a very swimmer mentality for a non-swimmer, by the way. We don't just do things, we overdo things. Jack: exactly, exactly. And so well now I like to consider myself maybe an honorary swimmer. I've been swimming for a year now to to about the exact date. I started in August of last year. And, you know, started posting some videos online and, you know, how the internet can be ruthless. And so I've been learning how to take constructive criticism well. started swimming like I really like to sprint on land, so I figured I'd like to sprint in the pool. And you know, w having worked with the Aqua Jets, they're all pretty high level swimmers and you know, I can't lie and say that I don't have any ego whatsoever. And so, you know, I like to talk smack to sometimes and be like, no, fifty freestyle, I'm beating you guys. You know, meanwhile they're going to the Olympic trials or Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: your juniors or whatever it is, right? And so, you know, started swimming three, four days a week, trying to learn the technique, trying to get faster. I started at thirty eight second fifty free and I just swam my first sub twenty seven. the other day. So thank you. Yeah. So it's still, you know, Mark Seguin: Nice! That's outstanding. Jack: thank you. Yeah. All the kids, you know, are still telling me I'm slow and still never will never beat but Mark Seguin: Please. That's fine. Jack: I told coach Kate my my goal is to swim a twenty five second fifty free and she goes, you'll never do it. And so yeah, I think she was just trying Mark Seguin: Really? Alright. Jack: to she was just trying to rile me up, I think, and it worked, you know. Yeah. Exactly. Mark Seguin: I love when people say never. That's another great swimmer thing. You tell me never and it's gonna get done. Jack: Exactly. And so I told her, I said, All right, I'm going twenty four nine nine instead of twenty five. So, that's the goal. That's what I've been working on. Mark Seguin: Yep. All right. Good. Jack: you know, and coming from a strength background to kind of segue into that, you know, one thing that I had to learn about swimming really early on is that stronger, you know, I think stronger can mean better, but bigger does not mean better, right? And Mark Seguin: No, typically not. Jack: Yeah, right. And so we want the tissues to be resilient. We want you to be strong and feel like you have a strong pull in the water. but as someone, you know, we talked prev you know, right before this and we were talking about football players swimming and, you know, having your lower body essentially work as an anchor. Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: you know, and that is what I had to figure out real quick, 'cause I was kind of swimming at an angle like this for the first couple months and you know, and so learning the body position is incredibly important. But I think, you know, kind of no pun intended diving into the sport and really figuring out all the all the intricacies and all the nuance is even more helpful. And so, that's kind of what I've been up to this past year in terms of like my swim career. I'd like to you know, if I get fast enough, I'd love to do a masters race at some point. but as of now I'm just training. And so from a professional standpoint, since I've been at Odom, I've just kind of got thrown into the swim world and I've loved every second of it. it's yeah, it's just it's an intense sport. It's what we call in the strength conditioning world a 1% sport. So, you know, much like track, much like swimming, you know, a tenth of a second matters, you know. And so you're, you know, the athlete Mark Seguin: Yeah. Yeah, it does. Jack: is always looking for that one percent. to just push them over the edge. And you know, so you need to be even more careful in your programming to make sure that you're being as efficient as possible, especially with you know kids' swim schedules nowadays. Where you know, like we said, they're doing six six days a week and a couple of those are two a days. And so just making sure we're not overdoing it, but we're still protecting them from injury, still getting them stronger so they can perform better. Mark Seguin: Yeah, no, that's great. And I know we talked a little bit about a couple of different audiences that we're going to speak to today. And I think the first one Jack: Totally. Mark Seguin: is really around the coaches. And I love my coaching peers to death. and as being one, and as much as we know the sport of swimming, there's not a lot of us that are very educated in strength training. What we know is what we knew from when we swam a lot of times, Jack: Mm. Mark Seguin: or what we know from another sport perhaps that we were involved with or we Jack: Totally. Mark Seguin: coached, but We don't. So let's talk a little bit if I'm a coach and I'm wanting to learn more about strength training. Where first of all, do I even need it for my swimmers? I'm a high school coach, let's say. What if I Jack: Yeah. Mark Seguin: just say, is it really even worth the time? What's your thoughts on that? Jack: yeah, first of all, I would say a hundred times out of a hundred, it is going to be worth it. In fact, Mark Seguin: Okay. Jack: I think not only with swimming, but with other sports, because it's often overlooked, I think a lot of kids would benefit from one less practice a week and a little more strength training just to keep their body healthy. like we said, swimming is a sport where you're doing rep after rep after rep, right? And so you're doing the same movement pattern over and over again. You need to have strength training in your life or some sort of training, right? to mix up your movements and give your body different stimuli. I think again in a sport, not everyone is an endurance swimmer, but especially endurance swimmers, you see high, high rates of overuse injury. swimming's also a sport where much like hockey in this state in Minnesota, they specialize very young. You know, I have a couple kids at Aqua Jets who, you know, are eight to ten and they swim, you know, five days a week. They're doing private lessons, you know, and all that is great, but they can't jump, they can't skip, they can't throw a ball. And, you know, oftentimes I get pushback, what's what's throwing a ball gonna do, or what's this coordination drill gonna do? you know, because if it's not If it doesn't look exactly like swimming, sometimes people are like, okay, well, how is this gonna apply? And, you know, my answer to that is often, you know, in the in the dry land room, right, we're trying to build general qualities that make swimming easier, right? We're trying to get faster, we're trying to get stronger, we're trying to get more mobile slash more flexible, and we're trying to get more coordinated. And so it's not that it always has to have a direct translation to swimming, right? I I would much rather have someone do a heavy pull up than do, you know, a band exercise where they're trying to mimic their stroke, right? and Mark Seguin: Yeah. Right. Jack: so I think I think, you know, one of the pitfalls that I see in swimming a little bit more than other sports nowadays is like going too far into the, you know, sports specificity world. where it just ends up Mark Seguin: Yep. I would agree. Jack: Yeah, it just ends up making your training inefficient, right? And and it can also do the do the opposite of what's intended and make the movement pattern in the in the pool worse, right? Because it's never gonna be directly the same as when you're doing it in the pool, right? but then again, that being said, there are specific tasks that you want to train for in swimming. So, for example, the other day I made a video about pull-ups, right? A lot of times I see kids short arming their pull-ups and not getting a dead hang at the end, right? And I come I compare that to not swimming and reaching through your stroke, right? That would just be like short arming it over and over again. And so, you know, if we're not training those tissues at the end range, your catch and your pull isn't gonna be as efficient. Mark Seguin: Yeah, you're only working kind of like that middle eighty percent of the stroke, not the initial Jack: Exactly. Mark Seguin: grab and catch and and probably the finish as Jack: Totally. Mark Seguin: well. Jack: Exactly. So, I guess to kind of come back to your question, I think it's super important. And I think at a minimum in season kids should be doing it once or twice a week. And then, Mark Seguin: Okay. Jack: you know, there's never really an out of season in swimming, as I think we all know. for the most part. there's a hundred percent should be. you know Mark Seguin: Yeah, there should be. There really should be. But yeah, we do get caught in that rat race of more is better. Jack: Totally. And so, you know, sometimes you have to work with reality and it you know, it might not always be the best, but you know, finding times within the year to kind of push your training, right? so maybe fall, right? Because you have championship seasons kind of towards the towards winter, right? And and spring and then long course you have, you know, towards the end of summer, right? We just kind of finished championship season. for aqua jets in like two weeks ago. and so, you know, finding different times within your schedule to push training, right? Because like we talked about, something is better than nothing, but you know, we need it to push us to adapt, right? So we can get better. And so, you know, the core circuits for a long time can be good, especially at a lower level. But to an extent, right, you're doing underwater after underwater, you know, a twenty-minute core circuit is just kind of you know, not stimulating enough for us to actually create change. and I r well totally. Well, and and Mark Seguin: Yeah. Gets to be kind of a yawner for your muscles, right? They're like, I do this all day. Neat. Jack: you know, I just had this I just had a couple of my national kids were doing like this YouTube like eight minute core routine that they found. And I was trying to explain to him like you wouldn't train your other muscles like that, right? You don't go run miles to get your legs stronger. and so we want to be efficient with our training even when it comes to core. And like you just said, more is not always better. Especially when you're in a sport where it's more, more, more. Mark Seguin: So one of the things as a high school coach or I guess any coach, I Jack: Mm-hmm. Mark Seguin: look at at as part of putting together a strength training program is I I kind of bucket into performance improvement and injury prevention. Like, Jack: Mm-hmm. Totally. Yep. Mark Seguin: so let's give me a couple of things on the injury prevention side that you think are really your go-tos that coaches could look at. Jack: totally. I think an easy one that's not super fatiguing to the whole system is going to be like long duration isometrics. So Mark Seguin: Okay. Jack: you know, you're in a sport where you're moving, moving, moving. Sometimes it's helpful for injury prevention to take the movement out of the equation, right? Mark Seguin: Yeah, absolutely. Jack: so for example, You know, I love a good Y-raise isometric hold, holding it for, you know, 30 to 90 seconds. you know, mobility work is always gonna be helpful. And then believe it or not, I think this is something maybe where the swim swim world is a little behind is what we call low dose strength training or minimum effective dose, right? And so That's not to say, hey, we're gonna go hit five sets of five in season for our squat to get our legs that much stronger. It's like, hey, let's go do, you know, a couple warm-up sets, like maybe one, one, two warm up sets and then one or two heavy strength sets. So it's not gonna be further fatiguing for us in season, but it's Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: still, you know, giving your body that external stimuli that, like, hey, we still need to use our body for strength. So then Mark Seguin: Right. Jack: you know, we're not losing that throughout the year. Mark Seguin: And on those warm-up sets, are you really accentuating full range of motion as well? So as you get Jack: Totally, totally. Mark Seguin: into the heavier sets, you don't skimp out on that full range just to say that you did the weight, Jack: hundred percent. Mark Seguin: like Jack: Hundred percent. However, I will say this in season, so from a physiological standpoint, going down in a movement is always gonna be the most difficult. The muscle Mark Seguin: Sure. Jack: is stretching and the body is under you know you know under load while the muscle's being stretched. So that being said, oftentimes I take out slow descents and sometimes full range of motion, to prevent further soreness and further fatigue in season. Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: So during you know, during times where we're training hard and maybe competing a little less, 100% full range of motion, you know, getting a good strength stimulus in. but in season, when we're worried about just getting that minimum effective dose, that's not gonna further fatigue their system, you know, maybe we do a quarter squat, you know, because it's just like, hey, we want to train our brain to be you know prepared for that kind of stuff but still not getting sore. but in general, yeah, full range of motion is always gonna be a part of the program. and then to kind of, you know, introduce the performance piece, in in my dry land sessions, right, I've worked with, you know, Edyna girls, prior prior lake girls, bin Benilde girls, aqua jets, right? and a handful of other individual swimmers, throughout my time, I think you know, most kids, if we're talking, you know, not elite college pro level, a lot of kids need roughly the same thing, right? They need Mark Seguin: Right. Jack: to get stronger, they need to get faster, more mobile, right? There's gonna be some difference and some nuance across the board, right? Some kids, Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: especially with strokes, right? I was working with a breaststroker who needed to work on his ankle mobility. totally. Mark Seguin: Yeah. Yeah, that that's a whole different ballgame when you get into the breaststroking stuff. but Jack: Yeah. Mark Seguin: in general, yeah, I think a general program will accommodate your ninety-nine percent just fine, right? You don't have to get Jack: Hundred percent. Yep, totally agree. Mark Seguin: super specific. what are some go-to exercises you're like, these should be a core piece of any dry land and what are some things that Jack: Mm-hmm. Mark Seguin: you people think are a great idea, but probably really aren't. Jack: Yeah, yeah. So, to start with what I think is a good idea. I think I think the Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: number one or I guess I sh I should say the number one and number two things that I think are holding swimmers back from getting faster and that I hardly see in any dry land programs, even even at UVA, even at like the high level, you know, I don't know all of what goes into their programming, but I like to chat with the kids when they come back from college, see what it's like. Mark Seguin: Sure. Jack: I don't see a whole lot of sprinting. Sprinting is the fastest thing that you can do on land. there's up you the there's nine to eleven times your body weight of force on different joints in your body. So I always say to the kids, I don't know about you, I can't squat nine times my body weight. You know, I can't squat a thousand pounds, but I can go sprint, you know, multiple days a week. And so that that stimulus is impossible to replicate in the gym. and Especially if you're a sprinter and swimming, getting your body operating faster, getting your brain operating faster on dry land will translate to you moving faster in the pool. Mark Seguin: Absolutely. Jack: I think the other thing is pliometrics, jumping, explosive pushups, Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: ballistic exercises like med ball slams. Like I know you're a fan of the med ball slams, Mark Seguin: Love mad ball work. Jack: rotational med ball slams, overhead med ball slams, I even love doing med ball slams where we throw it over our head and do a back bend, right? To get, you know, Mark Seguin: Sure. Yeah. Jack: better better more robust tissue in the low back. I think you know, we do a lot of drop catches, which is, you know, just taking something, dropping it and pulling it back up. Mark Seguin: Good catch. Yep. Jack: Yup. cause that stimulus is so similar to swimming. And the way I like to break it down is When you're holding something, the muscle is contracted, right? When you when you drop it for that split second, the muscle's at rest. As and as it comes down, that targeted muscle for this example, it would be the rear delt if I'm moving up and down, or the sorry, the front delt. and so as I go down, the front delt is relaxed. And then as soon as I catch and pull it up, it has to contract again. So we're working on muscular coordination. Mark Seguin: Right. Yeah, Jack: The way that that Yes, yep. Mark Seguin: and you're getting the muscles to fire, right? Not just hold resistance over time, but the activation and the relaxation Jack: Exactly. Mark Seguin: of the muscle in a repeated sequence, which is unique. Jack: Totally. Yep. The rapid onset of muscle contraction. Yep. And so you see that in swimming, right? When I come out of the water, my lat is relaxed. And then as soon as I catch, there's resistance, right? Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: As soon as I catch, there's resistance. And so my lat needs to be able to fire in that in that sequence, just the same as a drop catch. And so I'm a big fan of drop catches. You don't need a lot of weight. You can do it with tennis balls, you can do it with You know, two ounce balls, whatever it is. totally, totally. Mark Seguin: Yeah, and you can make games galore out of that stuff too, which anytime I think you can kind of turn things into a little bit of a game, it helps out, right? Jack: I I hundred percent agree. In fact, when I have younger groups, right? So we train at Aqua Jets, our groups, you know, start really young, but the groups that start training with me are like nine to eleven. and you know, that's gonna look so much different than my senior elite, my national group, my college Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: kids, where I would I would say engagement over everything. Right. half these half the young kids don't see the value in a vertical jump, but they see the value in jumping further than their buddy. Right. Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: And so, you know, turning it into a game, turning it into a competition is going to is, you know, essentially going to trick them into working harder, right? And it's gonna make it more fun. Mark Seguin: That's swimming at an early age in general, I think, right? Like even in in pool Jack: totally. Mark Seguin: practice, half of that stuff should be made into some sort of game. Cause otherwise you don't Jack: Exactly, yeah. Mark Seguin: have the engagement. If you don't have the engagement, they're not going to learn whatever it is you're teaching, no matter how smart you are. Jack: yeah. Exactly. It already goes in one in one ear Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: out the other half the time anyway. So Mark Seguin: Especially with the boys. I mean, they won't get that back until they're like fifty. Jack: hundred percent, hundred percent. and so yeah, just getting them to engage more, getting them to have fun and you know, as a strength coach, it's hard for me to to understand that strength training isn't everyone's favorite thing ever, you know, and Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: And so trying to make it fun for them so they actually want to come back and they want to keep lifting and and then they can eventually see that the lifting is a means to an end, right? You don't have to love the lifting, but you need to know that it's gonna help you get better at the thing that you do love. Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: and so I think engagement early on is setting them up not only for success in the in the pool and in their careers, but as they age, right? Because Mark Seguin: Yeah yeah. Jack: there's a ton of there's a ton of research on you know young women and well women across the board tend to have more bone breaks than than men, but specifically swimmers, you know, you're in zero gravity, there's no load to the bone. you see a lot higher incidences of bone breaks in swimmers, right? And so yeah, Mark Seguin: That's interesting. Jack: so getting them, you know, it in my idea or in my head. The idea is, you know, have them get better at swimming for sure. But I want to set them up. Not everyone's gonna be, you know, Michael Phelps, right? And so I want to set them up with you know, with a passion for for being healthy, for being for exercising, because they wanna take care of themselves, right? And so doing the jumping, the sprinting, the resistance training is what is going to strengthen the bones. And so, you know, it's also just about keeping them healthy. throughout their lifetime. but kinda to go back to the kids, a lot of it is gamified, a lot of it is mastering coordination, just giving them a bunch of different goofy things. just so you know, their brain is learning how to how to operate in real time, how to fix things, how to move different. Exactly. Yep. Mark Seguin: Basic proprio reception, right? Like understanding where your body is in space without having to look at it is a lot of swimming, right? And doing it on land Jack: Yeah, exactly. Yep. And so Mark Seguin: first is great. Jack: Yeah, yeah. And it just gives them something different. And so a lot of the training with those kids is what I call constraint based learning. So giving them a constraint and not telling them how to do it, but saying, Hey, how would you do this? You know, how would you get out of this position? How would you jump the furthest you can? and getting them to learn that. So then when they're in my senior elite group, when they're in my national group, it's like, hey, Boom, we can just do this, you know. and Mark Seguin: Yeah. And they start to learn more about compound movements and the impacts of that. Like everything in swimming Jack: Exactly. Mark Seguin: is not an isolated movement. Everything starts from your core at some point, right? 'Cause learning that everything's Jack: Yeah. Hundred percent. Yeah. And so Mark Seguin: coupled. Jack: exactly. And so I think the the the big key points for like youth training, make it fun, you know, gamify things, competition. I think they should still be doing jumping and sprinting. I think sometimes in the strength and conditioning world people are like, they should be able to squat two times their body weight before they jump and I'm you know, I think that's crazy. I mean y if you told that to a ten year old me while I'm jumping off the top of the slide onto the ground from ten feet up, you know? Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: and so, I think, you know, doing the plyometrics, but then, you know, what we talked about, they don't always necessarily need heavy strength training. I think there's some old myths that it stunted growth. we've found that that's not true. how Mark Seguin: No. I heard it causes hair loss. I don't know. Jack: hey, I gotta stop lifting then. Mark Seguin: Yeah, I say I lift it a lot in swimming, so I don't know. Jack: Yeah. but but you know, I think it's teaching them how to how to move their body, but also setting them up for the next level. So, you know, not all of our kids are doing heavy RDLs and heavy hip thrusts and heavy squat, but they're learning the patterns. We're having them hinge, we're having them do a hip thrust. Just i it's just not as heavy and it's not gonna look like what it does at the higher levels. Mark Seguin: Which is fine. Learning the technique and before you add weight, that's a lifesaver in my opinion. Jack: Exactly. Yeah. Cause, you know, when I first started, I got kids that hadn't had a ton of dryland experience before and they were seniors and they didn't know how to do an RDL. You know, and I'm like, how Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: are you gonna go off to, you know, University of Missouri, you know, USC and they're gonna have you doing crazy stuff and you're not gonna be prepared. And so, I think, you know, setting them up to have those movements down before they add weight. So then when I see them and they're at n a more appropriate age to lift, you know, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, etcetera, then it's like, okay, they're they're proficient in the technique. I'm not worried about them getting injured from a technical standpoint. Now we worry about just progressing safely. So that's kind of where Mark Seguin: What are Jack: I'm go ahead. Mark Seguin: you saying, what are some of the big no no's about a strength training program for kids that you don't it might sound like a great idea, but you don't want to see Jack: Yeah. Mark Seguin: implemented. Jack: Huh. yeah, that's a that's a tough one. I mean, I think, you know, I think an overemphasis on mobility is sometimes detrimental. Mark Seguin: Okay. Jack: you know, kids tend to be very mobile. Obviously there's gonna be some kids that have Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: issues, right? but you know, I've seen coaches, you know, bring their bring their kids through you know, just going like this and just rotating and opening up, right? And I think, you know, again, that's very low stimuli or that's a low stimuli, it's not really gonna low stimulus, it's not gonna create adaptation, right? And so you're kind of bringing kids through these motions that aren't actually necessarily moving the needle, right? And so I think an overemphasis on on mobility, still it's still good to get mobility in, right? Breaststrokers need to be able to internally rotate their hips. They need to be able to, you know, move their ankles well. but if you're spending 30 minutes of your 45-minute or hour session on mobility, I think you're doing a disservice to the kids. I think too much structure can be a bad thing. Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: I think you need to have some structure, and obviously they need to know. that it's not just goof around time, but allowing the kids to really learn and process on their own makes a lot better of an athlete than if I just, you know, handed them the answers for their entire career. So I think too much structure, too much mobility. But then other than that, I mean, obviously you're not just gonna have a kid, you know, go as heavy as they can. I think certain lifts are more technical and can weight. And so, you know, I'm not gonna Teach a kid how to clean and jerk when they're 12 to 14, Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: you know. But my seniors, all of my seniors, I teach them to clean and jerk mostly because if they're going to a D2, a D1 program, their coaches are most likely going to make them do that. but aside from that, hardly any of my youth athletes c do cleans or snatches. I think you can repi replicate that stimuli with. Heavy lifting and jumping and sprinting. So, Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: but then that being said, I think a good way to structure it in terms of performance and mobility or swim specific stuff is doing doing your meat and potatoes, which is gonna be sprinting, jumping, heavy lift, right? And that means like compounds, so you know, squatting, pull-ups, overhead press, my again, I don't know if this is a hot take in the com swim community, but even bench pressing, I think they should be having strong chest, robust shoulders, strong triceps to finish their stroke. Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: I think dips are a great one. it Mark Seguin: I think as long as bench pressy type stuff isn't all they do, right? Like Jack: Well, for sure. Totally. Totally. but you know, not to not to call anyone out by name, I had a swimmer who came to me. she's a Florida gator. And, you know, things can be it can be a game of telephone, so you never know exactly what the Yeah, Mark Seguin: Yep, you never know the details. Yep. Jack: exactly. But she told me that after meeting with her coach, he said no swimmer should ever bench press above twenty five pounds. And I was like, how does that even make sense? You know, does that Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: mean you know, two hundred pound guy like are you telling me Caleb Dressel shouldn't be benching twenty five just as, you know, Mark Seguin: And Jack: Katie Ledecki shouldn't be? Mark Seguin: You know, bench press varies so much to me. Like, and I don't want to get too much into this, but if I'm doing a dumbbell bench press, I love that Jack: Mm-hmm. Mark Seguin: a hundred times more than a bar bench press, right? 'Cause I like the stability for a swimmer to be able to to manage that Jack: Totally. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mark Seguin: weight. adding an incline or slight incline or a decline, changing Jack: Mm. Mark Seguin: weight and range of my all those things have value. if it's Jack: Totally. Mark Seguin: back in the old days where you're just taking a bar and dropping down as much as you can and bouncing it off your chest and hoping for the best, probably not a great idea, right? Jack: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, agreed, agreed. Yeah. There's always that nuance. But I I think for the most part, like we said, size does not always mean you're gonna be a better swimmer. In fact, it's oft often detrimental. but I think strength is always gonna be helpful. You know, if we Mark Seguin: Absolutely. Jack: can get you stronger and not turn you into a bodybuilder, we're in good shape. And I think yeah, go ahead. Mark Seguin: Yeah, I because you have to maintain a certain degree of flexibility, right? You have a Jack: Totally, totally. Mark Seguin: range of motion in swimming is important. That's why you Jack: Yep. Mark Seguin: see a lot of swimmers that are hyper flexible in certain areas, if not all. so yeah, but the strength to support that is amazing for performance. Jack: Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's definitely Well, and that's actually great that you brought that up. so I'm I'm hypermobile, right? Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: And I played sports that you know, it seems that being hyper mobile is advantageous in swimming, right? Like hypermobile knees, you get a little more whip at the end of your kick. you know, hypermobile shoulders, you're getting overhead a little more. or you know. Mark Seguin: Yep. You are. They come with a risk though too. I mean I've seen studies Jack: hopefully. yeah. T w Mark Seguin: with the impact of hypermobility on injury and it's there's a significant Jack: Yep. Mark Seguin: correlation. Jack: Totally. And so, you know, as someone who was an athlete but not in the pool, I I dealt with a ton of injuries being hypermobile. And, Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: you know, I grew up you know, kind of lower middle class where my parents couldn't really afford to send me to the the ETS, the training houses, right? Like Mark Seguin: Yep. Jack: I didn't really understand the importance of strength training as a youth athlete. And so, that kind of makes it even more important is if you're hyper mobile, you need to train those tissues to help prevent injury, right? Mark Seguin: Absolutely. Jack: and so yeah we definitely need to emphasize that. So I think, you know, meat and potatoes, sprinting, strength training, plymetrics. But then like you said, we don't want to get too big and not mobile. So at the end of our workout is where we're doing our core work. We're doing mobility and you know, as we get further into the season, I tend to break it up into like stroke mobility. So, do I think a fly, someone who does butterfly needs to train drastically different than a freestyler or a backstroker? Not necessarily. do I think you need a maybe a little more lat work for sure. But you know, you still need to be mobile, still need to be strong, still need to be fast. That being said, mobility wise, I tend to break it up into different strokes. So, you know, my fly my fly people are gonna work on some more overhead like rotations, stuff like that. my breaststrokers are gonna work more on the hips, right? and oftentimes, you know, I d I don't know many kids who aren't professional. Actually I don't even know if I know a ton of professionals who only swim one event, right? Mark Seguin: Right. Jack: And so usually what I'll have them do is do their core and then at the very end of the lift, you're gonna pick two of the list, right? And I usually have them progress it for three, four weeks. And then sure, if you're an IM swimmer and you are working on flying free, now for the next four weeks, let's work on breast and back, you know. And so, you know, doing a little bit of str stroke specificity is I think is Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: helpful. We just don't want to get into that rabbit hole of Everything we do is stroke specific. Like only my flyers are doing pull ups and you know, Mark Seguin: I agree. Yep. And we do enough of the stroke specific stuff just by training in the pool, I think. and Jack: Exactly. Exactly. Mark Seguin: I know there is some differences between the short axis simultaneous arm and leg movement compared Jack: Yeah. Mark Seguin: to the long axis rotational stuff, but Jack: Totally. Mark Seguin: that's that's at a pretty high level where you're really developing strength training programs around that. Jack: Yes, exactly. Yep. Mark Seguin: Right. Like all backstrokers can swim freestyle and most freestyle swimmers can swim backstroke and same Jack: Yeah. Mark Seguin: with the fly and the the breast, other than the kick is a little different, but whatever. Jack: Yeah. Totally. Mark Seguin: good stuff. Let's talk about for parents and athletes that are looking, maybe their program doesn't have a strength training program and they can't get it going. How can they do stuff on their own to Jack: Well Mark Seguin: to start things going if they can't afford a a professional trainer, right? Jack: Yeah, yeah. I would say this, you know, as someone who couldn't who couldn't afford that stuff, finding finding ways to just get it done, right? Like I used to go to my high school and you know, I bought a I bought like a fifteen pound sledgehammer for like twenty bucks at at a Home Depot. I went and hit the tire, I'd flip the tire, I'd you know, there's a smaller tire, I'd put it over my head and press. Like, you know, I was going out and on the track, sprinting, jumping, doing all that stuff. So I would say, Mark Seguin: Yeah, there's a lot of no to low cost options out there, I think. Jack: Yeah, totally. So I would say if I was building a program for someone with no equipment, it would be I'm gonna do a couple different sprint variations. I'm gonna get a vertical jump and a broad jump in there. I'm gonna master my body weight, so doing pistol squats, doing push Mark Seguin: Yeah. boy, yeah. Jack: ups, yep, doing and I used to go to the park that was right next to it and rep out pull ups, right? So you go to the park, do some pull ups, you know. and then just get creative with your variations, right? Like eventually doing a reverse lunge with body weight's gonna be too easy. You'll have to do a hundred reps for it to be stimulating. So learning how to do a pistol squat, you know, maybe on a box, like s to to a seat, and then doing it body weight, and then learning how to do a dragon squat, you know, and just finding different constraints, different variations that are gonna keep you progressing. It just takes a little more creativity, right? And so, you know, finding different ways to utilize your body weight and then again the sprinting and the jumping, hundred percent. for you know for someone who maybe has access to a gym but doesn't have the money for a personal trainer, I would say being more general is gonna be a lot safer than trying to Chat GPT, high high level performance. Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: you know, as a strength coach, someone who writes the programs, I might be a little biased and be a little against chat GPT. I think they oftentimes there's a lot of errors within what they write, specifically when it comes to programming. However, you know, I think if people really just whittle it down to like, hey, I know squatting is good, I know doing some sort of hinge is good, I know a press and a pull are good and then I know that a crunch and a core rotation are good, right? So let's just w yeah, I'm a I you know I'm trying Mark Seguin: And I would throw in a couple ISOs too, right? That's that's the easiest, cheapest, low energy thing you can do that Jack: I Mark Seguin: has a bang for the buck on it. Jack: hundred percent. I so I'm a massive isometric fan and so I'm actually trying to reel it back and not talk too much about isometrics, but isometric holds, I love a long duration split squat hold. I love a Cossack squat hold, Cope Copenhagen isometric for the inner thigh and the groin is amazing. I think having, you know, putting your hands out and having your buddy push into your hands as hard as you can and you trying to rotate, super helpful. I think, you know, holding a calf raise and having someone on the stairs above you pushing down on you and you, you know, resisting for Mark Seguin: Yep. Jack: time is super helpful. So, you know, just getting yeah, just it it takes a little creativity, but I would say, you know, just in general, this goes for people who have the equipment and for people who don't. If you know sometimes people kind of try to reinvent the wheel and you know, I'd say that's a big red flag. And then if anyone is too like, hey, this is all sports specific training, red flag, and then my last one is if they're too into one modality, right? Like the landmine attachment where you can do some single arm pressing, phenomenal. But I know there's there's gyms out there like landmine university where all they do is landmine work and it's like, well, you're missing out on so many other stimuli and different exercises that you're not really turning yourself into a well rounded athlete. Mark Seguin: Yeah, that that's great if you want to be like a professional arm wrestler or something and have the one giant forearm. but Jack: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there you go. Mark Seguin: that for most things that's not very practical, I don't think. Jack: Yeah, so but yeah, there's a lot to be done with body weight, with bands. a lot of band a lot of movements that you can do in the gym, you can do with a band, you know, band pull apart, band rows. you know, but eventually I do think that you know, I you know, I might sound you know, this might not sound great coming from someone who's a strength and conditioning coach and relies on people to you know, pay them for for that service. But I do genuinely believe that it is an investment that most people should make. You know, whether it's setting your s setting your kid up for success in their sport and preventing injury, or maybe it's your kid is already a great athlete and you're trying to get them the most scholarship they can so you don't have to pay for their college. or just setting your setting your kid up for a healthy lifestyle and promoting, you know, good habits. I think it's one of the best investments you can make. I also think that oftentimes, you know, for example, I've been training some baseball players. I know baseball players who are spending $500 on gloves and $500 on bats and, you know, can't do a bodyweight squat, you know, or can't do a pistol Mark Seguin: Yeah, that's crazy. Jack: squat, right? And so I think oftentimes looking at what is actually gonna get your kid to perform better and you know making and I don't mean to sound condescending when I say this, but kind of making you know, a better investment, you know. Mark Seguin: No, I think that's absolutely a a conversation to be had is we have finite resources as parents and families. where do you Jack: Mm-hmm. Totally. Mark Seguin: wanna spend the best? Do you wanna have those like for a baseball player, those sunglasses that are three hundred dollars that make you look cool? Jack: Hey Yeah. Mark Seguin: Or do you wanna be able to play the sport longer 'cause you're taking care of your shoulders? right? And and Jack: Exactly. Yep. Mark Seguin: and perform better. Jack: Yeah, totally. Mark Seguin: Yeah, I think that's really good stuff. I think people need to understand that there's a role for anybody in the sport to take advantage of strength training, whether it's Jack: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mark Seguin: something you just want to do at home a little bit, or Jack: Mm-hmm. Mark Seguin: something that you want to go all the way and invest into someone like your services, and have that personal Jack: Totally. Mark Seguin: trainer. It's there for everybody, but everyone can get benefit out of it. And I think the return Jack: Yeah. Mark Seguin: on investment is there. Let's throw a couple other things out here. How do you Jack: All right. Mark Seguin: feel about multi-sport athletes? Jack: love it. Love it. I mean, I'm someone I like to, you know, no again, no pun intended, I like to think of myself as like a jack of all trades. So I Mark Seguin: Sure. Jack: I I genuinely feel like because of my background, you know, I've played almost every sport you can think of from BMX racing, baseball, basketball across, you know, to cross country and it helped me you know, understand my body so much better. Right. Like learning learning how I can push through endurance, from an endurance aspect in cross country, learning how to connect my upper and lower body when shooting in lacrosse, you know, being agile and quick in basketball, like all of that stuff has helped me to the point where I feel like I can pick up pretty much any sport and be, you know, average. I'm not, you know, Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: not gonna be pro and everything, but I feel like I can pick up most things and I think it's I mean, I don't I don't think I've seen research that proves that, you know, being a multi sport athlete up until high school prevents injury. It prevents Mark Seguin: Yep. Jack: burnout. I had a kid that I was training, he was he was twelve years old. This was when I was training Vikings players. This kid would play hockey, he would have like like sticks stick skill practice from like six to seven in the morning. Then from seven to eight he would do like skate practice, just skating. Then he'd go to his school, which was a hockey school, and then he would come train with me for an hour, and then he'd go do a two hour practice, you know, for his actual team. So, you know, he you know, I haven't Yes, and Mark Seguin: That's a amazing. I I don't get it, but Jack: no, I don't get it either. but what I you know, he's still playing hockey to this day, which is phenomenal. But I remember as a young kid, he would come into the training sessions and he would be like, I just really don't want to do anything today. Or like, I'm Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: just not feeling I feel really tired today or I'm just not feeling it today. And to the point where it was like, you know, I saw him three times a week. I felt like we had maybe one good training session a week. And so, you know, what it's awesome to sign your kids up for things, but something's gotta give, whether that's their social life, their their education, their mental health. Or just their physical health, right? Like, we've all yeah, we've Mark Seguin: Yeah. All those, yeah. That Jack: all gone through tough periods of training where you feel like you wanna give up and be done and you need rest and that's fine, but to do that year round is crazy to me. And so Mark Seguin: Yeah, and that's one of my more unpopular opinions that I'm happy to stand behind is I think we push Jack: Mm-hmm. Mark Seguin: ki I love the sport of swimming more than just about anything. but Jack: Mm-hmm. Mark Seguin: too many kids are doing it all year round at such a young age and it's it's hurting our sport. Jack: Yep. Yeah. Mark Seguin: so I just want to get the strength training training aspect of that too. I'll even Jack: No, I Mark Seguin: throw out as far as with some of my athletes saying, instead of swimming in the summer, Just spend the summer doing a strength training program is probably more beneficial for a lot of kids than swimming all summer. Like switch it up, Jack: Mm. Yeah, I totally agree. Mark Seguin: get on land, save some money, let your hair repair, and and and you know, go just do a strength training, right? Yeah, like take a break and Jack: Yup. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stop smelling like chlorine. Yeah. Yeah. Mark Seguin: and you'll come into your high school season or your fall season in a lot better shape mentally and physically than you would if you Jack: hundred percent. Yeah. Mark Seguin: swam. And people think that is about the craziest thing that they've ever heard. Jack: Yeah. Mark Seguin: and I am a hypocrite. I swam 48 weeks out of the year because I loved it, but Jack: Mm-hmm. Mark Seguin: I don't think that's the right thing for most people. Jack: Yeah. Well, and you know, swimming from my experience is a is an interesting sport where a lot of the athletes are really high achievers in other areas of their life. And Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: so they're they're stressed out with school. They're stressed out with you know, all the extra curriculars that they have to boost their resume. They're Mark Seguin: Yep. Yep. Jack: swimming all this time. And I'm someone who believes in the biopsycho social model. So that's just, you know, talking about biological stress, right? So like physical stress, right? Mark Seguin: Yep. Jack: It's talking about social stress, like stress from your parents, from your friends, from your peers, stress from school. All of that compounds and you know can further fatigue your body or prevent recovery, right? And so, like I said, something's gotta give, and we wanna make sure that these kids are thriving in all aspects of their life, not just one or two, right? And so I sometimes feel like I gotta grab my athletes by the shoulders and shake them and say, you Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: know, take these two weeks off. It's just two weeks. Like, yes, it's you know, you're not gonna Mark Seguin: It's okay. In fact, it's better than okay. Jack: Yeah, yeah. So so no, I'm a huge proponent of having some points of rest in the season and then I'm a huge proponent of playing other sports. And, you know, like I said before you know, I'm a ride or die for swim. Like I have just fallen in love with it over the past three years. I mean, I tell the kids all the time, like, if I didn't care about you, if I didn't care about swimming, I wouldn't have spent the past year, you know, half drowning for an hour a day, two hours a day, three days a week to learn what you guys go Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: through, right? And so I say this with love. Swimmers are some of the most unathletic athletes I've ever seen, right? And I feel like, you know, we talked about it, they specialize early. and they don't do sports that require hand eye coordination. I feel like other other if a swimmer is a multi sport athlete, oftentimes they're doing track or cross country skiing or something like that, which is great. Cross train, work on your endurance, that's awesome. But I still think that there needs, you know, at least before you're in high school, worrying about, you know, committing to colleges and whatnot, when you're elementary and middle school, yeah, go go Learn how to throw a baseball. Go learn Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: how to throw a football. Go learn how to shoot a basketball, kick a soccer ball. Like and it'll make your training when you're in high school so much easier. Like I again, I have a girl, she's a Kansas swimmer, phenomenal. I think she was like incoming freshman of the year, amazing swimmer, but I had her try and do a skip and she kind of did it. Then I had her try and do a skip back. backwards and she she couldn't even backpedal. It was like Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: she had no idea how to move her body and it almost looked like robotic. And so you know, it doesn't sound like it's super significant 'cause like, I just swim anyway, but it's it's setting you up to be a better athlete and perform better in the weight room, which is going to help you perform better in the pool. So Mark Seguin: Absolutely. And I think the the coming out of sports like flag football for girls, lacrosse, ultimate frisbee, Jack: awesome. Mark Seguin: like things that like men's vol boys volleyball, things that you couldn't Jack: Mm. Mark Seguin: typically play because either they weren't offered in high school or they overlapped with your Jack: Yep. Mark Seguin: swimming. are now available Jack: Yep. Mark Seguin: to give you some of these land, what I call start-stop sports where you you're exploding, you know, you're accelerating, you're stopping, Jack: yeah. Mm-hmm. Mark Seguin: you're cutting, all that stuff Jack: Yeah. Mark Seguin: available. And we should take advantage of those because they're Jack: Yeah. Mark Seguin: so good for your swimming. and it it's great mentally to get away from the pool every now and then. Jack: Well and like I said, you know a hundred percent. Well and yeah, and like I said, you know, swimmers don't get the bone density training, right? They're Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: in anti gravity, so that stop stop and start stuff is, you know, not only gonna help them become a better athlete, but just a healthier individual because now they've been training their bones, whereas I don't even want to, you know, at my at my work, so I work at Odom Health and Wellness. We're like a physical therapy clinic, doctor's office, and then we have a gym as well, right? And so we've been working on this program called O'Nero, which is a bone density training program for like older individuals. And you can be young and do it. I think it's awesome if people were young and did it. But the the demographic we tend to see are older individuals who have now had. Like, you know, you know, X-rays and yeah, exactly. Yep, Mark Seguin: Bone density issues, osteoporosis, things like that. Jack: yep. And so we're seeing phenomenal results with this training. And guess what it look Mark Seguin: That's awesome. Jack: yeah, and guess what it looks like? Your average strength training. They're they're doing some light jumping, they're doing some heavy lifting, and their bones are getting healthier. And so I look at those people who weren't swimmers, and now I think of a swimmer who started swimming at five and has only swam their entire life and I'm terrified for the sixty year old version of them, you know. especially yeah, Mark Seguin: Yeah, exactly, like Mr. Glass. Jack: and we're in Minnesota. the amount of you know, people in their fifties, sixties, seventies that I train who slip on ice and are out for the year, you know, is crazy and it's horrible to see. And so, you know, I just wanna Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: set people up for success. So Mark Seguin: One other thing I want to tackle before we kind of wrap up, and this is a thing Jack: Yeah. Mark Seguin: I think swimmers and all athletes seem to hear, is kinda the the nutrition around before and after lifting. cause Jack: Yeah, yeah. Mark Seguin: so many people that I watch think protein before lifting is the right way to go, or protein before swimming is the right way to go. Jack: Yeah, no, definitely not. Mark Seguin: And you're just like, man, come on. But they they Jack: Yeah. Mark Seguin: get hit with these commercials. They see all these people like jacked eating these high protein bars, and they're like, I'm gonna go work out, I'm gonna have this protein bar, and you're like, like what? Jack: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. One, you know, it's a it's a joke. Mark Seguin: What's the general rule? Jack: Yeah. It's a you know, it's a funny joke in like the strength and conditioning community that everything nowadays has to have protein in it. So like Mark Seguin: yeah. Jack: even your toothpaste is gonna have protein in it now, right? Mark Seguin: Mine does. Jack: yeah, yeah. I mean if it if yours doesn't, you're behind, right? Mark Seguin: I know. Jack: but yeah, nutritionally, especially if you're a long distance swimmer, you need to be eating a ton of carbs. Right. Like, Mark Seguin: I Jack: I I'm five eight one seventy, so I'm not like the biggest guy ever. but I'm eating like three hundred and fifty grams of carbs per day, Mark Seguin: Sure. Jack: right? 'cause I'm lifting, you know, almost five days a week. I'm swimming three days a week. And I'm training for a triathlon right now, so I'm kinda like biking and running intermittently within that. And Mark Seguin: You're active. Jack: Yeah, yeah, I'm active. And so you need to be carving up, you know, you need that energy Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: for fuel and it also is good for your brain. And so, you know, I just lose my mind when I see people like, I need to be on the keto diet. Like, you're cutting out one of the most important fuel sources. And so I think a well balanced diet, I think, you know, again, I'm always gonna refer to like you sh you know, maybe even one or two sessions with a nutritionist to give you an idea. But again, not everyone could afford that. I couldn't afford that as a kid. And so, you know, I went on Pub PubMed, I went on Google Scholar, like good resources and tried to find s studies and and literature talking about like what is a healthy range. And then, you know, there's different different websites that you can find that kind of take take your weight and help you find a little closer of a number within that range. So Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: There there are resources out there, but again, if you're if you're prioritizing carbs before training, right? specifically Mark Seguin: Yep. Jack: you know, if you don't have a ton of time in the morning, I know some of my swimmers are getting up at four to get here at five or whatever it is, get up at yeah. Mark Seguin: It's a bat it's a battle to eat. Jack: Yeah, I I believe it. And you know, I can't sit here and lie and always say I'm perfect nutritionally, but you know if you're good eighty percent of the time, you're in good shape, right? Like you Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: should definitely, you know, have a meal that you enjoy just to keep yourself from you know, going crazy. But one of my favorite snacks of all time before a cross country race or before like I did a really I tried to swim three thousand yards without stopping the other day. And I ate tortilla with some peanut butter and some honey and some yeah, Mark Seguin: And Charlie? Yeah. Jack: some some honey and some cinnamon on it and you know, rolled it up and you know, it was probably like three hundred calories and just Yeah, yep, exactly. The struggle meal. Mark Seguin: Yeah, used to call that the poor man's burrito. Right? Like just take a tortilla, slap a bunch of peanut butter in there and whatever, roll it up, it'll stay all day long, pull it out before practice and hammer it down. Jack: Totally. Yep. Exactly. Exactly. So, huge fan of quick carb sources like that. When I was training hockey players, they used to do a handful of salt and you know, to help retain water and then some honey, you know, and that was Mark Seguin: Yep. Interesting. Jack: that was the pre workout snack of these NHL guys and you know, those quick carbs are great. Obviously there's some worse sources of quick carbs. I know in the Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: in the bodybuilding community, people are big on the rice crispies. I will go out and say I think things should you should always strive to be nutritionally sound. So, you know, getting micronutrients and stuff. However, swimmers oftentimes or they rarely face the issue of eating too much, you know, they 'cause of how much they train. Mark Seguin: I know. It's it's damn near impossible. Jack: Yeah. And so, you know, that is a rare time where I'm like, you know what? A rice crispy treat might be okay. You know, 'cause I'm not saying it's the most ideal, but you can get away with some of those quick quicker you know, carb sources. Rice cake's great. Mark Seguin: I think as a swimmer, you're more in danger of not eating enough than eating the wrong thing. Right? Like you just you you gotta get Jack: I agree, a hundred percent. yep. Mark Seguin: the calories and the carbs in all day long. you're Jack: Yep. Mark Seguin: not gonna overeat. It's it's really, really hard to do that. So it I'd rather you eat something like crap than not eat. But yeah, the pro the protein Jack: Yeah. Yeah, totally. yeah. Totally, totally. Mark Seguin: before workouts is a big one for me that I'm like, come on guys, don't you Jack: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, obviously different people operate different ways. I was someone who didn't like to eat a lot 'cause I didn't like to feel heavy. protein and fats are gonna kind of give you that heavy feel heavy feeling just 'cause they're exact yep. Mark Seguin: Proteins are just harder to digest, right? They're more complex molecules. Jack: Exactly. And it's just you know, it's it's just gonna make you feel full more full, right? And so, I'm a huge, huge fan of the carbs before the race. you know, I wanna say this if it's age appropriate. I am a fan of caffeine before a race. Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: caffeine by itself is not not inherently harmful. and so as long as you're Mark Seguin: No, it's awesome. Jack: yeah, so as long as you're within a recommended dose, always gonna advocate for caffeine. I think creat creatine. Yeah, right, right. Mark Seguin: There's just a crash with it. That's the hard thing. Right? The downside of caffeine when it wears off is not always beautiful. Jack: solo de. Mark Seguin: but yeah, no, I think caffeine's an amazing thing in moderation. Jack: yeah, and I think if you're hydrating, yeah, and if you're hydrating well, I think you can mitigate some of that crash. Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: but always gonna recommend that. Always gonna recommend creatine. I think there's some misconceptions still around creatine that it'll make you bloated, it's gonna make you slower. Yeah. Mark Seguin: That's probably a whole nother conversation on the the the the research on creatine over the last 15 years. right? Because back in the day it was all about just it was about bulk. It was retaining more water Jack: Yeah, yup. Yeah. I mean I would say this. Yeah, yep, yep. Mark Seguin: in the muscle fibers to make them look bigger. But now we're seeing a Jack: Yeah, yeah. Mark Seguin: lot more with it that there's actually more to that. Jack: For sure. And you know, in my opinion, I think the the water weight is kind of negligible, especially for the benefits that it provides. and I also think that you know, once you you know, if you take it for the first time, you might in your head feel like an acute sense of like, Okay, maybe I'm like a little heavier. but if you're taking it over over, you know, months and years, I don't know, I've never felt that, you know, and I've been taking it now. Mark Seguin: Y your body has an an amazing way of regulating water, right? Like Jack: Ex exactly. Yeah. Mark Seguin: it's kind of built for that, like from top to bottom on how to manage the amount of water in your system. if there's too Jack: Exactly. Yeah, and so Mark Seguin: much or not enough, it knows what to do. Jack: Yep. Yep. And it's you know, it's one of the most it i i if not the most researched supplement on the market. and it's it's safe, you know, and so I don't think everyone needs to go taking all these crazy peptides and all these extra supplements, but you know, I think magnesium for sleep. I think a multivitamin and you know, some vitamin D just 'cause we're in Minnesota winters get Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: get rough. And then you know, just yeah. Mark Seguin: Iron's a big one for me. I've always talked with with the girls is making sure you have your iron, not just your hemoglobin Jack: for sure. Mark Seguin: tested, but your iron and your what's the word I'm looking for starts with an F, tested Jack: Yep. Yeah. Yep. Mark Seguin: and then supplements if needed. Not a lot of meat eaters Jack: Totally. And and you know, this is an extra thing. Mark Seguin: out there anymore that just sit there and hammer no one eats liver and onions. Jack: couldn't be me. I I love a good love a good red steak and love a good liver. Yeah, no. Mark Seguin: I d yeah, I do too. Yeah, I am not iron deficient by any means. Jack: That's awesome. well, and there's creatine in red meats, right? And so, Mark Seguin: Yeah. Yep. Jack: but yeah, so I would say, you know, those are kind of the big staples of, you know, if you're gonna take supplements, it should probably be those three three to five supplements. but again, like if you have the resources, I would always recommend doing some blood work depending on how how you know intense you take your swim career. Mark Seguin: Yeah. Jack: like we d we do blood paneling here at my work and I've seen some good results with some kids who may may not have been performing their best, maybe been a little low on energy and then they start taking these supplements and see a turn and so it if you have it available it can always be beneficial. So Mark Seguin: Yeah. And you can usually ask for that in your annual physical if you're feeling there's just like you're a little low on energy or something feels a Jack: Yeah. Mark Seguin: little off. Most of those are just basic blood tests. It's nothing incredibly intrusive that they can just add on. and Jack: Yeah. Mark Seguin: are usually covered by your healthcare as well. that's Jack: Yep, nice. Mark Seguin: why I've always included the iron one. So much to talk about and so important. Jack: yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Mark Seguin: I really appreciate you coming on. I think we're gonna have to do more of this. Back to running through some Jack: I would love to. Any time, any Mark Seguin: ideas on how we keep getting this information out there. Cause this is an aspect Jack: Yeah. Mark Seguin: of swimming, as we Jack and I talked beforehand. I think no strength training is bad on one side, not knowing Jack: Mm. Mark Seguin: what you're doing is really bad on the other side. And there's so Jack: Totally. Mark Seguin: much in between that I think we can talk about that's gonna be beneficial for people swimming or diving or their just general life health. Jack: Definitely. Yeah. Mark Seguin: mental health is a part of it and doing it at least somewhere in that middle ground is important. Jack: Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. And, you know, I'll die on the hill that I think swimming is an underserved community in terms of strength and performance training. And, you know, I feel like I've been, you know, warmly welcomed into the swim community. I've really loved it. And so, you know, all I wanna do is be able to give back and, you know, give swimmers more resources on you know, improving their performance outside of the pool. And so, you know, thanks for giving me the opportunity. It's been amazing to chat with you and hear your ideas and so I'd love to do it again. Mark Seguin: Awesome, we will make that happen. Thank you so much. Jack: Awesome. All right.