patrick halloran: All right, well hey, welcome the Rescue Lab Podcast. ⁓ as always, we've got an ⁓ another awesome episode today. Most rescuers become experts in one environment. Jess has worked in caves, canyons, industrial rescue, mountain rescue, rope access, and expeditions around the world. Today we're talking about how all this experience shaped her approach to rescue and what every rescuer can learn from crossing disciplines. And we are talking to Jess Coffey today, right? I have it right? Yep. Okay. Well, hey, we got ⁓ we got you up nice and early out there on the West Coast. But thanks for joining the rescue lab. Yeah, absolutely. Happy to be here. Yeah. And ⁓ so I I think we we connected. I saw some of your cave pictures and I recently was like, you know, what is it you do? It looks very and I've seen some of your your rope stuff online, and it was very interesting. We got to talking about spar and all this stuff I've never heard about, which we'll get into. But why don't you just give us the the background of just coffee, who you are? Yeah, ⁓ so I grew up In Decatur, Alabama, which is North Alabama, kinda near Huntsville. ⁓ from there I I studied in Florence, Alabama, which is a cute little music town. And I was going to school for geoscience. And that's where I was first introduced to climbing and caving. I started both about the same time. ⁓ from there I I went on to study cave research in Kentucky, and that's where I started learning alpine caving, which is a specific style. And then from there went on for more research up in the North Cascades in Washington and swapped to canyoneering up there because there's hardly any caves in Washington. What was it about caves that that kept bringing you back? ⁓ you know, so I think vertical caving in particular is what got me hooked because I mean people distinguish between horizontal caving and vertical caving. You don't need a harness or anything for the first one, obviously. ⁓ the the technical aspect of it and the challenge involved there and how it feels when there's, you know, a hundred meters of abyss under your butt. ⁓ always a pucker moment. Yeah. ⁓ that that really caught my attention. And I also had the privilege of participating in a a glacier cave expedition very early on when I was very green and probably had no Business being part of it. Perfect. And that really opened the door for me of well, how cool of a path this is and where it could lead. Jess, why don't we jump into your background and how you got into rescue work, rope, rope work, and where you are now in your journey? So how I got into rope work, I had a roommate that introduced me to climbing. I started doing that a lot while living in Alabama. ⁓ for caving. I got into that because there was ⁓ a flyer at my school about a caving class and I needed a college elective. Nice. Always a good one. Yeah. I hopped in that class and there were about nine people in that class and it was kind of a joke. The the teacher at SD stuff like push chairs together like barstools and crawl through the legs to simulate being in a cave. This this wasn't a this wasn't a college class. What was this you were a part of? No, and he and he was not a caver. It w it was it was interesting. But it drew the attention of a real caver named JB Hubble and he saw that I gave a shit about it. And so he kinda took me under his wing and brought me to some small shitty caves because that's kinda what cavers do as a filter. ⁓ You made it through their hazing and then you're you're worthy to see the cool caves. Yes. I like this style. I like this ⁓ Yeah. And so I I I passed this hazing and ⁓ we started caving a lot together and he brought me to some really cool places and started training me in vertical from there. Nice. Okay. And so you went from caving, you you go on expeditions, and how'd you get involved in industrial rope work or industrial rescue? So I was working as a canyon guide. in ⁓ Utah and Washington, depending on the season. And I was kinda getting done with being a broke dirtbag guide. And ⁓ my friend was already working in industrial rescue with life rescue ⁓ up in Washington. And so he was my in. All I had to do was go and take a SPRAT class and pass that and get my rope access certification. And they hired me from there and I've been working there ever since for over four years now. That's awesome. And and you also said you are an instructor as well. Yes. ⁓ so we do various like combined space classes and rope technician classes. And so we'll train at our rope access facility, but also around ⁓ you know, in the mountains in Washington as well. That's cool. And what ⁓ you know, looking back, what lessons did did caving teach you about traditional rescues? ⁓ that that traditional rescue doesn't teach, you know, what did that cave side bring to it? So for caving, s similar to anything that's remote rescue, right? Anything where you're in backcountry, you have to be very minimalist in gear. There's a higher bar for ⁓ skills in order to enter compared to other rope sports. And so you have very high skills or high skilled teams operating environments with very low redundancy. Very rare do you have a backup. ⁓ you have No GPS, no helicopter that can help you. It's ⁓ cold and wet and muddy and there's no light. And so you're operating under the most challenging conditions. And so I think it y you develop a lot of grit working in that environment and cavers have to be very self sufficient problem solvers. They have to be. Yeah. Just know when I was coming. Yeah. And then I think that specific environment has bred ⁓ very interesting concepts ⁓ which leads right into spar and how how we we ⁓ mitigate things like ed f edge friction and different systems where a small team can pull off very big rescues very efficiently. Yeah, the the spar aspect is is super interesting. I we'll get to that. I I just want to ask about your the industrial rescue side. How was that experience different from, you know, your your recreational climbing and even the caving? Well ⁓ I mean the go going back to it's two ropes all of a sudden. Yeah. ⁓ that I think was the biggest thing in in how to manage that. I have all these big fancy devices now that can do like twelve different things where where I needed ⁓ small lighter gear before. And y that that's that's really the main thing. Just new equipment and the the you know, strength rating for anchors changes. I'm used to very marginal anchors, how we rig things, ⁓ so that it it's so robust to to meet the standards of the rope access world. And you're talking about the the s the small teams, you know, in the at early work. What makes those smaller teams so effective? Yeah. So I would say on smaller teams, everyone has to wear many many hats. Mm. And we're also very familiar with each other and often there's very little talking because of that. We're all just operating in sync and anticipating what needs to be done. Yeah. So I I think that that's the main thing. It's very different from a larger team where everybody has distinct roles and you have to stay in your lane. You can you can pull off a lot with a small team when you operate and things like that. When you were exposed to working with, you know, twenty to thirty people on a team, how did your mindset change? And that was ⁓ you were on Mountain Sar for a while, correct? Yes, I still am. ⁓ so and and yes, that that's similar. So Mountain Sar I I think operates kind of similar to, you know, firefighters when they're doing technical rescue as far as, you know, we have our team lead, we have our our safety guy and edge attendance and coordinating a a larger team is a skill set in itself. So coming from a background where it might be like a two or three person team, it it's a very different world and it it takes a while to get used to, but it it makes sense absolutely for larger teams. And do you think that there are any lessons that you took from that about integrating into larger teams? I would say, yeah, it it took me some time to do okay at it. Yeah. The the biggest thing I think is communication. ⁓ that that's that's the struggle I see most common with larger teams. You know, it's it's very challenging to be able to communicate the idea in the team leader's head to a broad audience and they might think they understand and then they do something different. So getting everybody on the same page when you have that many people it's the biggest thing there. No, absolutely. I and I even on my side, I mean we have we have four shifts of, you know, our rescue technicians and you know, we're not we don't see each other during those shifts. So it's kind of just information is passed along and you're hoping that that lieutenant or someone in charge on that next shift is gonna take that same that training that we're putting out and be able to execute it. I think it it it gets harder the the more horizontal you move, ⁓ in a certain sense. Yes. So you you know, you've trained in a lot of environments, you've trained in a lot of roles, and you've seen a lot of interaction amongst different teams. But what principles never change regardless of the environment that you have worked in? ⁓ I think a big one is put your own mask on before helping others. And ⁓ it's as in an airplane too. Yeah. if you become a patient, it's worse for everybody. So take care of yourself. ⁓ and I think a big one for larger teams, especially, ⁓ is remembering that to increase or decrease redundancy depending on consequence. Okay. So A single rope isn't unsafe, or else doubling it up wouldn't then make it safe. Teams are doing SRT all over the world every day. Yeah. We use two ropes to account for human error. Yeah. So if you're trained in SRT or there's a reduction in consequence, like you're you know, hovering the litter a few feet off the ground, maybe that's a common SAR technique where they might go to one tension line. Yeah. ⁓ A s or a second rope is introducing some sort of hazard and it's more safe to have one rope. That that's always an option for you. And Spratt allows that in their rules. There's there's a line in their rules talking about ⁓ you know, if if your judgment call is that a second rope is making the situation unsafe, go to a single rope. ⁓ interesting. ⁓ you know Mike Micah Rush from Peak Rescue. I don't. He does a Podcast recounting their rescue they did in the Gulf of Mexico or Gulf of America. And ⁓ it was on it it was a recovery, I think, of four casualties from carbon monoxide poisoning deep in the oil rigs. And ⁓ amazing story. He tells it really great, but essentially he discusses how they chose to go to SRT. To pull off that rescue or recovery. And essentially what that came down to is bluntly reduction of consequence. It's a recovery more than rescue. They're also operating in hazardous air environments, you know, they're air monitors, SCBAs. And so they have a ticking clock they're working against. And this is a highly trained team. So for all those reasons, together for the technical rescue, it made sense to go down to a single rope. And I think it serves as a really good reminder for our community that that's always an option available to you if it makes sense. Yeah. And that's I mean, that's such an interesting fact because, you know, in the fire service, we are just so tied to that two line system. And it's just like the way you're brought up from the academy on up. And to think of anything outside of that is almost sinful, right? And but you look arborists have been doing it forever. You know, I think your the concept of if you have everything mitigated or you've done that risk analysis, like why not, right? Yeah, it it's something to train for, absolutely. So I I think that that's huge. You know, tea some teams are not training that often and maybe they are not the right team to do that. ⁓ but given that you have regular training and you could even do some trainings where it's intentionally SRT that you could do it if you needed to. Yeah. No, that's I would and that's something I you know, I would take away from this personally for my team is it's just something we've never done. And I I think there is an absolute value to that. Yeah. ⁓ And that's yeah, that brings me to the other point of tunnel vision. I think what do you the different rescue disciplines, how do you how can you unintentionally develop tunnel vision? So without cross-pollination between disciplines, I think it's easy for people to get stagnant and closed minded. And that can even happen within the same discipline. So if you only train with the same group of people and then eventually you go and train with somebody on the other side the country. the way they do things is going to be entirely different. And how we're wired, we want to cling on very tightly to whatever our first mentor taught us. And it takes a lot of evidence ⁓ to to convince somebody later on like actually maybe this way is more appropriate in this circumstance or or whatever. So I I've seen a lot of sayings like that. Like some some groups ban tooth devices entirely. And some groups they won't use a chest harness unless it's rated for life safety. There's a place for that. If it is for life safety, of course, like say you have a sternal attachment or a dorsal and you're gonna fall from that like a traditional rope access harness. But there's other times like for caving that a chest harness is just for torso support and your seat harness already is covering your life safety. Yeah. ⁓ so but some groups Like even if it is not applicable for what we're doing, the chest harness has to be rated for that. So there's there's interesting things like that I've come across. ⁓ I've s some groups I'm thinking of like search and rescue will will die on the hill of we need two rope systems. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. And then we'll do things like the edge attendant will be right there on the edge with too much rope on their line where they would take a factor to fall onto a static rope. So there there's ⁓ an inconsistency with how we treat safety there. That is funny. To that point, it was funny. I was at the New York Tech Rescue Conference and they had their state police helicopter come in and do a hoist ⁓ demo. And what I thought was really funny was the when they go to do the hoist, it's just the the the hip harness. There's no, you know, there's no dorsal or ventral t and I'm laughing. I'm like, These guys get lifted up in a helicopter and we're here, you know, about to go do this evolution where we have this full class three harness and we have to be on two ropes. I'm like it's it was just it was very interesting, the the duality of the situation that we found ourselves in. Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. ⁓ so in that same sense, you know, if if every rescuer trained outside their specialty once a year, what would they gain? I mean, you've you've seen a lot of different aspects of training, but what is that what does that give to a rescuer? It would undoubtedly challenge their thinking. ⁓ if you think about your your rigging, your harness, and if you think all that is correct through and through, but it's only ever been validated by the same group of people, likely the people that taught you, then you'll quickly find holes in what you think is correct when you're interacting with other groups. And some of those things you might even be right about it, but the first time you're having to think critically about it and justify it. And think about the why. This is what makes you a stronger rescuer. ⁓ when everything you thought was right actually gets pressure t tested, preferably by somebody better than you. Yeah. It's hard. But that that's what ⁓ makes you really understand what you're doing and why. Yeah, I I think so. I I think some of the the best classes I've been to, I've literally left and I my brain was just mush for several days and it was just a, you know, hey, I have to sleep on this and Yeah. Yeah. Process. And if I can take one salvageable piece of information from my reptilian brain, then, you know, maybe that then maybe that's something I can bring back to to my department. ⁓ the the spar side of things. Now this is this is the stuff that I was blown away by when you especially sent some of the pictures and cool stuff. But you know, for people unfamiliar with spar, to include myself, what is it? Sure, SPAR is an acronym that stands for small party assisted rescue. So these are advanced techniques for a small team to get themselves out of a bad situation without having to call in the Calvary, or at least they can improve their situation where the rescue is easier when the Calvary arrives. And why is it so effective? So I think the Best way is maybe just to give some examples of some of the techniques that we use. ⁓ so, you know, that this was developed for caving and we have to do things where we're, you know, ⁓ managing edge friction without any sort of AHD. ⁓ and often in rockfall zones. And so things like counterbalances. But not just smaller ones. Like people might be familiar with counterbalances for pickoffs, but for SPAR, there's systems we build that are large-scale counterbalances. So for example, ⁓ when there is a rescue in Ellison's Cave, which is a it has a 600-foot pit in it that could swallow the Seattle Space Needle. Jesus. And so when there have been rescues there, the way they solve that problem. I mean, just imagine if that were on on the surface with some cliff and how how many people we'd have responding to that to haul somebody out of it. How we solve that problem is if you can imagine a litter rigged at the bottom, and that rope goes up to a pulley at the very top of the pitch and then back down. It doesn't need to make it all the way back down to the bottom, but just enough that you could install a rope grab onto the tail coming out of that pulley. There's a second rope next to it and you have two people doing a tandem rappel. So you have a a rescue repelling and somebody's hanging from his harness to add weight and they have their rope grab installed on the tail of that rope. Now with their controlled rappel, as they go down, they outweigh the litter and it goes up six hundred feet and it's done in a matter of a few minutes. ⁓ people and ⁓ there's gonna be other people assisting at the very top for edge transition and that particular cave has ⁓ some obstacles they have to navigate as well. But it you can you can see where you start getting into really interesting, very powerful techniques where a small party can be very effective in their rescue. Yeah, I mean that's ⁓ I'm I'm usually not the most surreal world when it comes to imagining systems, but I do have a good image of what you're talking about. And that's actually pretty incredible. Yeah, and I so and that's just one example. We we do a lot of stacked systems for mitigating edge friction. So what that would mean is ⁓ so just pi picture the the counterbalance I just described. But say there's a really terrible lip giving a lot of friction or has a lot of loose rocks that you don't want to knock down on the pupil below because it has moving rope over it. So we'd we'd build a stack system, which means that the pulley, the upper pulley of the counterbalance would be installed on a floating anchor so it's it's dangling just below the lip. And now you have a free hanging the the rope can move entirely w without rubbing on the rock so it's safer and obviously less friction. Once the patient reached that pulley, ⁓ the the pulley would be mounted to say a three to one above that. And then you could haul them up and you just have to deal with that edge friction of a few feet. Yeah. So you c you can stack these systems in in a strategic way to o avoid the hazards of rockfall, the friction, ⁓ but you you can see where it it becomes very technical. You have to anticipate and be very solid in your rigging. No, I I I think one of the things that and what I was gonna ask you is the difference why is cave rescue so different, but I you know, the the stuff you're talking about, or you keep mentioning the friction and obviously the rope on the rock is a huge point. Yes, absolutely. Or even the rockfall. I mean, that's have you ever been in situations where you've seen that actually happen? Yes. Many tim Yeah. Yeah, that's it's a it's a huge hazard in in Cave and it's a it's a hard one because no matter how much you train, you cannot protect against it. ⁓ yeah, there's ⁓ I've had many close calls myself. I have seen other people ⁓ have close calls. There are have been people that have died. ⁓ there's a school bus size boulder in a cave called Valhalla in Alabama, right after the the pitch that I think is about three hundred and fifty or three hundred foot rappel down. And when you walk by it for the first time, somebody usually lets you know that there's two cavers underneath it from a few decades ago. My God. That's terrifying. Yeah. ⁓ so the spar side, you you eventually became an instructor. What was that experience like? Yeah, I it was It was so cool because for one, Spar is I think my favorite style of rescue. I I find the the problem solving of it really interesting. And it it was so cool being a student in it myself and just opening my eyes to like, wow, I I I know all these smaller skills, but how can we strategically puzzle piece them together so that two or three people can be very effective? And so getting to share that with other people and it it's it's very So, you know, building that that toolkit for somebody else and we're also having a good time all, you know, camping together and having festivities at night. So it it's Not too many festivities though. You gotta work the next day. Right, right, yeah. Would not stay up late having fun. Where can you attain these spar skills? Yeah, so there's two main routes of getting of taking a spar class in the United States. The ⁓ National Kid Rescue Commission, ⁓ NCRC. They have a spar class. It's it's only it's so that's one direction. They're their primary thing is very large scale rescue. So they are bringing the cavalry, but they also teach small party stuff. And then there's Eddie Cartea, who I learned under, who is based out of Bent, Oregon, and has a wonderful s facility on his property built specifically for Spar. It's not just some chairs pushed together, right? No. No, yeah, we've we've upgraded a little bit from crawling through the chairs. I still I still like that story. and so ⁓ in talking about the caving, you do a lot of ⁓ expeditions. You're actually leaving on some toursome expeditions at the end of the month. But what is it what is it some people don't or wouldn't understand about expedition caving? To be honest, all of it. Yeah it it it's so it's so niche. Yeah. And ⁓ essentially what goes into it is we are a small army showing up and th there's like months of preparation leading up to it, right? Especially you have to figure out, you know, are you crossing an international border with all your equipment? What is it like tipping scuba tanks across the Mexican border? What what happens with that? ⁓ and once we're there, there there's so much with like ⁓ like we have communications connecting camps in a cave. So yeah, let me give context. So for for deep caves, we'll have a series of camps. And I I think people would be familiar with the idea of that for mountaineering, you know, like you have Everest Base Camp and Camp One, Camp Two. We do the same thing, but we're descending deeper into the earth. And for safety and logistics, those are all connected with very delicate ⁓ telephone wire that we we place through the cave. And so each cable have a phone, like old old phones from I think Nom. We we tap in ⁓ you know twice a day and and check in with the surface and other camps to check, you know, inventory, like, hey, we need, you know, twenty more bolts at camp three. ⁓ also more dinner mix. We we all eat this like always eat dinner mix. Yeah, they they they spend time like filling totes with like ramen and freeze dried egg and whatever and that's just you just eat dinner mix every day down there. I'll be I'll stay at camp one and I'll just I'll eat the food. How's that? Okay. but yeah, so just a crazy amount of logistics on on that side of things. Al also just how we shuffle people. So different cave camps often have, you know, sleeping bags staged there that we keep in Darindrums, which is like a built out now gene pretty much. Yeah. And so there might be, you know, four sleeping bags at this camp and you have to, you know, keep that in mind as we try to shuffle people through the cave so that they have a a place at night. ⁓ our sleeping situation is ⁓ an emergency blanket and then a you know, sleeping mat, sleeping bag, and then you'll try to have a emergency blanket above you because there's always a drip. What about what what about creatures that live in the cave? What kind of creatures are we talking about? ⁓ you know, near the cave entrance You get like you you get cave crickets, those are kinda and what about like spiders? Deeper in the cave, it it's I mean bats of course. And then ⁓ more more sort of aquatic stuff that you run into, like translucent cave fish or crawdads, but it it's kind of rare. Okay. I just I've maybe it's the movies where they have the giant cave spiders. Yeah. That have given me nightmares. ⁓ you you were talking logistics. How big is an expedition party typically? It depends. ⁓ when I was up in Alaska there were maybe ten of us at the most. But then down in Mexico and at Sistema Chavez, gosh, that that's a two months month expedition and people rotate out. So in total it's hard to say, but I I feel like there might have been twenty or thirty of us while I was there. In total it's probably sixty. Okay. Depends on the year. Yeah. I gotcha. And I mean, how many of these expeditions have you been a part of? that message. Kind of things. ⁓ let's see, th three or so down in Mexico, then Alaska, and then I have two more coming up this year. And how have those how have those expeditions changed the way you prepare for for rescue missions? So I think both expeditions and guiding in in similar ways have changed my thinking because you'll you'll be down there and you know, look at a spot and be like, damn, that is a really bad place to need a rescue. Or there is no rescue to come get us. We are the rescue if something happens. ⁓ it ⁓ on very remote expeditions like like Alaska, that was y you you take a flight into Can ⁓ sorry, into Ketchcan. And then a four hour ferry to Prince of Wales Island and there's not many people out there and it's just our small like nope, nobody's coming. You have to sort it out yourself instead Not for a couple days. Yeah. Yeah. So for for those experiences, I carry a lot of contingency gear and not ⁓ you know, not just rescue gear, also, you know, maybe I have extra water so I can cover somebody if if they run out. Quick break from the conversation. If you're looking for custom gear for your department, team, or next project, check out Engine House Designs. Use code Rescue R-E-S-Q at checkout for 10% off. When you use your code, a portion of your purchase comes directly back to support the NARC Foundation's Technical Rescue Training Fund. So you get great gear, save 10%, and help put more rescuers through training. Engine House Designs, use code Rescue, R-E-S-Q. Now back to the show. ⁓ I I think that the those experiences have changed, you know, the the weight I'm willing to carry. I usually have enough things to pull off a lot of rescues entirely by myself. Because so by yourself. That that's an interesting point because you know, you're going in with a small team. Does everybody on that team have the same sort of spar training? Or I mean I imagine there's not that many scientists that have taken spar or, you know, rope and you know classes, right? Yeah. So it's it's getting better. But I and Europe Europe is very good about this. They have a very different system where a two-go caving you go through an entire academy. And I think everybody has more similar training in in in that sense over there. Okay. Here you you might get a large variety. There isn't like a a requirement for a certain class to be on a certain trip or that sort of thing. And one one you know, way of thinking that that small teams go by that it can be problematic is the mentality that, you know, cumulatively, in our four people say we have enough gear to pull off a rescue. And that, you know, that's incentivized by we want to be lightweight, look where we're going, and we don't want clunky stuff on our harness. We have to squeeze through tight crawls. But it's making a lot of assumptions, right? And you you'll Probably be okay, but you can ⁓ imagine pretty easily several circumstances where like, ⁓ the guy's stuck on rope that we need to rescue. He has the stuff we need to rescue him. Or, you know, sometimes it makes sense to split up or someone's gotta run back to grab another rope or whatever, and he has the stuff you need. So for all the reasons, I am willing to carry more weight so that I can do what I need to. And then if there's extra year on someone's harness, fantastic. Right. And is is it usually are you ever on a team where you're like I'm the only one that has these skills to rescue anybody. Sometimes I would say that that is that that was definitely the flavor of canyoneering when I started. I mean I guiding, you know, you you might have another guide, but often it it's it's you as some some clients that have never touched rope before. Maybe they've like rock climbed a few times, but that's what really got me first thinking about rescue is we are very remote. Canyons, you know, may maybe they're a little easier to get help than a cave, but they can be very Yeah. but that's if you can get the call out right. Sometimes your inreach doesn't reach the sky if the canyon's tight, you know. ⁓ so that that's what the first situation where I was very aware of. I am regularly the only person that could do a technical rescue and I'm in charge of getting this group out safe. Yeah, that's ⁓ That goes beyond the call of the guide. But it's also the job. And I so I think that brings up good point too in talking about the the industrial rescue side. I think you work with smaller teams. I like the spread aspect because it's more in line with what you're talking about is the individual rescue skills. ⁓ but how does that industrial rescue side with the minimal staffing sort of force people to become more efficient or better rescuers? Yeah, I I think it it's it has similarities with, you know, you you have to wear multiple hats. And you you might be the rigor that also later has to hop on rope and be the guy getting the patient. So we're we're all collaborating on on that to be efficient in those ways. And also learning what skills you can pass off to a bystander. Like, hey, I'm lowering this, there's tangles in the rope. Can can you untangle that rope for me? Or hey, can you ventilate the combined space? Go grab a blower. That kind of thing to ⁓ y you know, pass off what you can that that's like a a non-technical skill so that you can focus on what needs to done. Yeah. I and I think that that's often forgotten about maybe the the help of bystanders or even I think on the team rescue side, we focus so much on, hey, you know, you need to be technical, you know, this technical rope certification, but there is plenty of room for the operations people to be helping and doing all this stuff. And that is what w I think we on the fire service need to be doing a better ⁓ a better job of. integrating those people. ⁓ it as far as address for rescue and whatnot, what is what's a piece of equipment you think people overlook? I think a really good one is the VT prussic. VT Prussic. I'm not familiar with that. V T prussic. ⁓ the the terminology can be confusing because ⁓ the the VT prussic just refers to an eye to eye pressic. So rather than a sewn loop, you have two sewn eyes. Yep. And it ⁓ but it it's named For the Valditan tress is what VT stands for, which is a type of press you can tie with it. So it's just context of ⁓ you know how talk about it. Yeah. And it's a common tool in canyoneering and for arborists. You see it less in caving, industrial rescue rescue, and SAR. But it's a really cool piece of kit because it opens the door to many different types of pressics you can tie that all have different uses in pros and cons, including the Valtahan Tress, which is releasable under load. And that's a huge get out of jail free card for anybody operating in the backcountry. I would I would say people operating in very easy to access areas and urban contexts don't see as much of a benefit because they can have heavier, really fancy tools. We have clutches, right? But anybody operating in very remote contexts where weight matters, a a VT prussic is a really good piece of kit to have. It's not that I'll I'm gonna look into that. Sure. I gotta learn more about that. ⁓ what what's one skill that fire departments should steal from industrial rescue? I would say fluency on rope is a big one. ⁓ that could make a huge difference in a rescue, however however rare it is, if you need it, you need it. And it also makes you better and safer at everything else you do. Yeah. It's a wise point. ⁓ yeah, we and on the rescue lab, we talk about building better rescuers. If you were designing a rescue curriculum for, you know, a tech rescue team for a department or wherever, you from scratch, what what would you include in it? ⁓ so so same thing there with fluency on rope. So set the foundation with solid rope skills because that ⁓ is going to help with everything else after that. I really like for the the downrange rescue class and lead the rescuer class. ⁓ w when I was a student taking it, they they lead into that class with videos on failed rescue attempts. And some of them are quite jarring. And it's a really good intro because it's a reminder like, hey, you can fuck this up. Yes. And we all need to pay attention and have each other's backs. Yeah. So I I think that's quite valuable. And then I would say I I really appreciate the the symbols and communication ⁓ plan that Jill Srusso teaches. he he goes into in the Lead of the Rescue course, and that's probably one of the biggest pitfalls for most teams. So that's a really valuable skill set as well. And you were just talking about some of the classes. What what are some of the classes that that firefighters are rope rescue? Text should be taking. I really enjoyed my lead the rescuer class. The downrange class goes into competition style rescue, which even if you're not into it, there's tricks you can pull that help a whole lot. Yeah. And then Spar was one of my favorite classes I've ever taken. And we've already gone into why that's great. So ⁓ all of them should be taken at the right time. These are not beginner classes, and you get the most out of them if you. already have a solid foundation on rope. So I recommend that. ⁓ but th th those have been my favorite classes. have you ever competed on any like Grim style teams or anything? So I'm on the SAF competition team, but it's a newly formed team and we haven't competed yet. We've just started training. Nice. Is that something you're looking forward to though or yeah. Yeah. I'm really looking forward to it. Our first competition is gonna be in Sevilla in Spain next year. Nice. Great day. Yeah. Rusty great day That's cool. If you guys need a victim, I'm available. I can I Okay, I'll I can I can play a good victim. going back to s the habits that make ⁓ that make rescuers f you know, take them from good to elite. What are some of those habits? So I think doing it because you love it more than just because you're paid to do it. The the people that get really nerd about nerdy about it and are doing it in their off time and not just for the pay or because it's social hour. it you can really tell and it it makes a big difference. ⁓ following new data, you know, we have Iders where people are submitting research papers every year on their testing and they often will prove something wrong that everybody was ⁓ you know, that was common practice previously. So that's a really big one ⁓ for me. Are you do you go to Iders? I've been to the one in St. Louis a couple of years ago. I hope to go to the next one. I am supposed to be speaking at the next one. ⁓ fantastic. What are you speaking on? I am speaking on how we rebuilt our rescue company and the the sort of progress that we use to build it out, to take it from where it was to where it is now. Awesome. And that's in Denver this year. Okay, sweet. I hope to go. Yeah, I'm not nervous whatsoever. So it'll be cool. ⁓ what you know, and along with all the the training that we're talking about. What should rescuers be practicing more often? I think I think minimalist techniques are quite valuable, even if it's not your go to. So for example, running scenarios where you solve the edge problem without an AHD. Yeah. Negative edge? Yeah. Yeah. stuff like that i is really valuable. You know, you might have a rescue that is further out where it's a pain in the ass to carry the heavy AHD over there. What do you do instead? Yeah. And that's ⁓ for us specifically, our you know our team, we've we've really tried pushing that aspect just because I think one of the things and I I talk about it is we just we're trying to focus on making that victim contact. And instead of sitting there and setting up the system and you know taking the time to think it over Let's just get down there, figure out we need, and we can do the rest later on. And that's that is something we are actively trying to get better at. And that's ⁓ that's my goal anyways, right? ⁓ yeah, you so you I mean, you've traveled around. What are your thoughts on fire service rope rescue in general, from what you've seen, based on all your you know, all your experience? This is totally off the cuff. This is totally off the trap. No, it's not a trap. I I'm trying to make it so we don't entrap you. But I mean, you've traveled, you've traveled the country, you've traveled internationally. I'm sure you've worked with firefighters at at the basic level and I know you you operate to me, you operate at a very elite level, but what do you or do you see any common traits that were missing in the fire service that we, you know, we shouldn't we should be relooking? Yeah. ⁓ I I think what I've brought up already is just on rope practice because we need it and it also helps everything else. I think on top of that, the large scale operations, there's good and bad. And the bad side of it is sometimes I see quite a bit of downtime. Yeah. Where someone's given a rule, they rig whatever and then they set because it it's not a system that's set up where they can then, you know, go help somebody else over there rig the HD or or whatever it is. And so it it makes sense in that context, but how how can we be more efficient where there there isn't downtime or we can integrate people better? Yeah. See, that's not too much of a trap. It's that was good. And that that was that was good. ⁓ I've got I've got another one. Yeah. And th this is not all teams, but I I have seen it sometimes. Is more more for teams that don't train as often. I see them use very unspecific language when we're referring to devices or systems. They they might not be familiar with the name of it. And so they're like, Hey, give me that grabby thing. Yeah, ⁓ the grabby thing. Whatever. Yeah. And and s it leads to a lot of confusion, slows everything down. And so ⁓ you know, and that and that's just familiarity, right? And more. That it that absolutely happened to us at the New York Tech Rescue Conference. We were doing a a high directional and we were achieving one of the repellers at or one of the technicians who went down. And I think we were hauling, we meant to say stop to stop hauling, but we really meant, you know, stop the movement of the rope and it just Everyone and we'd only just started working together, so that's where you see that familiarity come up, you know, what makes a team work or click if they are in that same that same plane and and totally understand each other. So I I totally see that. ⁓ I will pass that on to the fire service though. Thanks. Okay, great. ⁓ all right, so you survived you survived the main question round. So I'm gonna hit you with some lightning round questions. ⁓ favorite knot. Favorite knot is the munter. It's the most versatile rescue knot. Perfect. And can I pick a second one too? You may. Okay. I thought I invented it. But I didn't. This is me just in the the standby rescue trailer killing time. I wanted to come up with like a little brain teaser and so I was playing around with the re-threaded butterfly knot. Yeah. Total mind fuck. If you if you I could ⁓ I could I could tie ⁓ a butterfly, so don't don't screw me up. But what is it? A rethreaded one is crazy. But after I learned it, it has come up quite a bit. That's also you thought you made it though. I didn't make it. Well I mean to me you did, so there you go. That's perfect. Your your favorite piece of rescue equipment? I'd say the micro traction. Okay, yeah. Although, you know, to translate into that into more rope back to see industrial stuff, that would be the pro traction. I don't really use that very often. but I would say for that world a piece of equipment that I'm really excited to try is the HinoVate four to one. It's A four to one that goes into a little pocket a little bit bigger than your fist. So is it just like a smaller wingman or essentially, but think how powerful that is because no one's I mean, some people carry a wingman on the harness, but it's kind of a pain in the ass. Yeah. And so this is super compact and I think a really cool piece of kit. What's it called again? ⁓ I forget the name of the actual device, but the company is Heinovite. Okay, I'll check that out. Yeah, the the wingman, I I don't know of anyone that actually keeps the wingman bag anymore. They usually switch it over to like the Aztec bag just 'cause it's right. That is the worst made bag in the world. Yeah. I mean, even that is still it feels clunky. ⁓ absolutely. Yeah, for sure. ⁓ what is the most underrated rescue skill? I think bolting. But do you use that a lot outside of caves? You know, we actually used it in the downrange class done in the Florida Keys quite a bit. Really? It it's a great skill to have. ⁓ you know, maybe not so great for training 'cause you're you know, permanently defiling whatever I have I have no problems with that. ⁓ but you know, some sometimes it it makes sense and it's fast, you get the anchor right where you want it usually. But it it's a skill set, right? You can mess it up. So definitely something to train on and get the appropriate, you know, roto hammer, right type of bolts and get proper training. Yeah, tha I actually we have we have spoken about that before in in a rope rescue class and it was it was something of interest. So that's something I I'm interested in learning more about myself. ⁓ it's fun. Yeah, well I mean destroying property is fun. That's what fire that's what firefighters are good at in the first place. But ⁓ most most overrated rescue skill. ⁓ no but what and I was just gonna say, you know, bolting while you have two feet on the ground is one thing, but it's a skill set on its own when you're on rope upside down. Yeah and I get a deal hook. I I think you sent some of the pictures you sent, I think you were actually doing some boat work. I mean in some pretty some pretty crazy ass places. Yeah, I think some of those were down in Mexico and I was using the petzel petzel pulses, which are retrievable bolts. Yeah. And those in particular for rescue are great. Obvious I mean, you just need a couple and you can move them along whatever path you're taking the the patient. So you're not burning through. I mean, it gets expensive, right? And just burning through bolts. So ⁓ yeah, those those are a great piece of kit. I I And my list is growing of things that I need to go back to. Okay, I'll send you a great list now. Thank you. Thank you very much. ⁓ the most overrated rescue skill. ⁓ you know, I am not a fan of this question. Why? ⁓ because we just talked about this, didn't we? Well, ne never after rescue is the team like, wow, we were so prepared for that. That's unfortunate. No. But this this brings up we I think you sent me that thing about the the high directional from CMC when they were talking about it. Or is that the pickoff? That was the pickoffs. Yes. Yes. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that? ⁓ we can we can get into that if you want. I have a a lot to say on that. I think we should. So I guess for the audience, ⁓ the C CMCU put out a podcast and they brought up a great topic of ⁓ pickoffs and are are these an overtrained skill? And their their opinions are are valid. But yours mine as well. Yeah, we're gonna add into the mix. Yeah. We do not train pick offs enough. We need to train them more. I like that. And first off, I wanna clarify what I mean by pick off because it's a term that especially in industrial rescue and I I think for fire as well, it gets grouped into a bunch of other things that in my opinion need to be called something else. Because people will group off a a group of pick off with, you know, a a team based deal where they're they're lowering one guy and he's gonna, you know, transfer the patient's weight onto him and then he gets lowered by the team or hauled by the team. Yes. And to me, we need a different term for that because it is such a different skill requirement to have one rescuer go and rescue somebody stuck on rope under their own power. Yes. And is a much higher risk. Yes. ⁓ Yeah, so like a rope like a team based pic off or a s something. ⁓ thousand percent ⁓ because I think that individual skill obviously being perishable as well, but there's you know, if you screw that up, it's up it's on you. Yes. So how can you not train that enough? Exactly. And I I come from a martial arts background. Well and wait, what kind of martial arts? Don't see dough. I I grew up doing that in Emma. I'm a jujitsu guy myself, it's no big deal. You know what? I think I could have pinned you for that. Wait a minute. ⁓ most people in a studio don't expect to get in fights regularly. That's not why they're training there. There I mean, there's exceptions, of course. You know, kid got in a fight at school and his mom threw him in. But ⁓ mostly people are not there 'cause they expect to get in the fight tomorrow. And And actually the more you train, the less likely you are to get in a fight, I would argue. That's the point. Yes, you you get what we call peaceful confidence through training. And so you're less likely to be in that bad circumstance in the first place. And I think this is very analogous to pick offs because ⁓ yeah, you know, the more training you have, the the less likely you are to be in that bad circumstance. Of course it could still happen, you know, freak emergency, like medical event on rope or or rock fall. But also maybe you had better rigging that stopped an accident from happening. Yeah. You know, so many places you could take that that prevent you from being there in the in the first place. Yes. And the argument that they were making on their podcast is that there's a low likelihood of a pickoff. And yes, they're Correct. Nobody's debating that. But my point is that it's not about likelihood. It's about if your friend gets hit in the head with a rock or has a medical emergency on rope, do you want to be able to do something about it? Yeah. No, I I am in full agreement with that. I think it's that it's it is that personal skill that it's great that you might know it, but are you a master of it? Right, exactly. And you you're kind of touching on this already. It's something that you need to keep very sharp because you probably shouldn't be attempting a pick off anyways if you are not dialed because of the high skill requirement and high risk of creating another casualty on a rope if it doesn't go well for you and you might end up w tangled up with that patient's weight on your system and maybe you're still on your offcenders and you you can't get out of it. And now the team has to come get you. Yes, exactly. You've made a bigger problem and rule number one, don't make more victims. That is the that is rule number one. ⁓ and that was that was really the reason why I pushed for our our team to get into Sprat because a lot of my my thought process was look, if we're gonna be rescuing somebody that's doing some sort of industrial work, we should understand why they are there in the first place, what happened, what went wrong, and the less amount of people that we can send over to get that person is better for everybody in the end. Yes. Absolutely. and Go ahead. No, I was gonna say in those those personal skills that you learn at Sprat are invaluable to a fire surface rescue team. Absolutely. And ⁓ like tying back to earlier, it also just makes you better at everything else. We're learning how to position your body relative to a patient so that you can haul somebody while on rope or unfuck a system if you mess up. Yes. Those are those are invaluable and ⁓ can can help with the the types of systems you might consider building before it reaches the point of, hey, we do need to pick off this person. You know, th that that should be, you know, the ⁓ several options and you've already gone through plant A, B, C, D before you consider putting someone else at risk and being dialed in that particular skill set comes up in other places. Yep. And I think from us continually working on the pickoff, you know, the our early pickoffs were very sloppy and we would essentially put all the weight of the person and it would end up just dragging us from our like hip connection and it was miserable, right? It's absolutely miserable. But what came of that was, you know, we took more classes, we learned more, and now for the pickoff, we do sort of the dog bone from the spine of the descender to the person. And it absolutely has changed the way that we do it because So putting the the the dog bone from the side the spine of the descender to the victim has taken the weight off of you know, that us as the rescuer and it's it was like a life changing moment. I thought it was really cool. Yeah. To learn that. Yeah. So many tricks like that. You you learn on the way that makes it easier. And only because we kept doing it. Yes. Yeah. ⁓ and I I do want to add that I did invent something called rope jutsu. ⁓ I think it might I think it might become a new ⁓ discipline. You know, I think every pick off you kind of do have to do rope jitsu. It makes sense. I like that. If it's not an awkward straddle, did you really do a pickoff? Yeah, actually actually I did. So the the the the the tag on be Jess ⁓ supports ropjutsu. That's Yes. That's perfect. ⁓ and can I add a little bit more onto this? Yes. ⁓ so I know a caver that has had to do a real pickoff. Really? ⁓ Eddie Kartella. ⁓ he tells the story really well. I will try to touch on the highlights And but it was back when he was in Vietnam and he was caving with friends and a storm came through. And th this can happen in cave where you you've repelled down the pitch, you've repelled down your rope, and it's fine, it's clear, it's dry, and you go to cave and you come back and you're ready to ascend the rope and there's a new waterfall that wasn't there on your way down. Right. So that's what happened to them. And it wasn't a continuous waterfall. It didn't sound like it it came in flood pulses every seven minutes, I think. He he said he could set his clock to it and water would rush down and with it it would carry big boulders. And they were stuck down there for a long time, I think days, maybe a long time. And his friend became very antsy and was like, fuck it, I'm gonna try to ascend out. Not the best idea. We have to we have we have to get out. Like but you you can see where they don't know how long they're gonna be out down there and th maybe nobody knows. I I can't remember the details on their call out there if if somebody were coming or not. But he felt he needed to get out and it was the only way. So he started ascending and you know he only has that seven minute window. And he becomes stuck on rope. And Eddie's watching him and he's like Fuck and so Eddie ⁓ sent it up, picked off his friend, were pelled down with him, and they get out of way, and like moments later the rocks and water come crashing down. Yeah. And so they encountered the very rare circumstance. And it's not about likelihood. It's being able to intervene and help your friend. Yes. And also trust that your group has your back if If something were to happen to you. Yeah. No, it's and it to get it done within that window. I mean, that that is we talked about dialed in, and that's I think that's 100% dialed in. Yes. It's not something you you could try if if you weren't confident in that skill set. And after he told me that story, he he he said something to me that gave me chills. He said, There will be a day that is your final exam. And on that day, fate will either take your life. Or leave you with it. And that's why we train these skills so that we can give our best fight on our final exam. I I like that. I think that's you know, we talk we always talk about high risk, low frequency, but that is exactly what it comes down to in the end. And that when that call or that event actually comes in, I mean that's that's what it boils down to, right? Yeah. That's ⁓ it's gonna it's gonna be with me for a little while, all right? Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Don't train a pick off after this. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Rokjutsu. Rokjutsu. There can only be one winner in Rokitsu though. ⁓ cave, mountain, canyon, or tower? Definitely not the tower. No. Yeah, I mean I I ⁓ I like being high up, but I I'd rather be outside. I'll I'll take any of the other three. That's fair enough. All right. ⁓ the biggest lesson you've learned underground. Wow. ⁓ you know, I would say we were talked about rockfall quite a bit in this, but I think there's a lesson there in that there are enough things that can get you regardless of your training or preparation. And I see that as a responsibility to be as trained as possible, like control the areas you can so that you can stack the odds in your favor the best you can. That's very that's some lightning shit. I appreciate that. ⁓ that I think that's from your your martial arts background. ⁓ but no, I a thousand percent agree. I that's very well said in that in that sense. Your dream expedition. I think I'm about to go on it. That's awesome. Yeah. ⁓ you know, glacier capes in Iceland. I'm the photographer on that expedition. We have ⁓ a lot of funding from sources like Nat Geo. It's really cool and ⁓ our team's doing really cool science and survey and exploration and it has all the things bundled together in one and it's gonna be really cool. That's awesome. I we wish you the best in that. ⁓ thank you. And the final question, if someone listening today wants to become a truly well-rounded rescuer, not just good at, you know, one discipline, what advice would you leave them with? It's a good question. Thank you. ⁓ I think having fun with it, it's not just your job. ⁓ we we kinda touched on this earlier, but I think that the best rescuers I know, what makes them really good is that they're pulling from other other disciplines and integrating it. You know, maybe it's a a flashy arborist technique that makes whatever they're doing that much quicker or safer. And I think that's what has made the biggest difference for the pupil I see as the most elite in rescue. Awesome. Well Jesse we We appreciate your time and thank you for your insights and we wish you the best on your expedition. Great. Thank you so much, PJ. Thank you. Appreciate it. Hey for everyone listening. This is the Rescue Lab Podcast and we'll see you on the next one. Thanks for listening to the Rescue Lab. If you found value in today's conversation and want to help strengthen the rescue community Consider supporting the New England Rescue Collaborative Foundation. Every donation helps fund technical rescue scholarships, training opportunities, and educational incentives that prepare rescuers before the next call comes in. You can learn more or make a tax-deductible donation at NE Rescue Collaborative. And one last favor: if you enjoy the Rescue Lab, the best way to help us grow is by leaving a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform. It helps more rescuers discover these conversations. and keeps us bringing you stories and lessons from some of the world's best rescue professionals. Until next time, keep learning, keep training, and remember, no one else is coming. It's up to us. I'm PJ Halloran and this is the Rescue Lab.