patrick halloran: Rescuer has looked at a damaged building and wondered, would you go in there? The answer often isn't made by the rescue squad. It's informed by engineers who've spent years learning how buildings fail, how loads move, and how collapse happens. When most people look at a damaged structure, they see debris and destruction. Structural specialists see load paths, failure points, and the hidden hazards that can mean the difference between a successful rescue and a catastrophic secondary collapse. Today we're talking to one of the professionals trusted to make those assessments during some of the nation's most complex disasters. From the first size up to the final search, we'll explore how structural specialists support rescue operations and what firefighters can learn from the people whose job is understanding failure. Because before the rescue can begin, someone has to understand the structure. I'm PJ Halloran and this is the Rescue Lab. Hey, welcome to the Rescue Lab Podcast. PJ Halloran here with Jeff Quinnell. From the US Army Corps of Engineers. We welcome him into the IUC studios where we're gonna talk about the structure specialist program within FEMA and the US Army Corps of Engineers today. So Jeff is a is a National Urban Search and Rescue Program Manager for the US Army Corps of Engineers with over 31 years of service to the Corps of Engineers. Jeff has a wealth of experience in civil and structural engineering. He grew up in Lakewood, Washington and earned a bachelor's degree in civil structural engineering from Seattle University. His career with the USACE has taken him to various districts, including Portland, Seattle, Fort Worth, and Sacramento, where he's been involved in a wide range of military and civil design projects. In 2005, Jeff became a member of the US Army Corps of Engineers structures specialist cadre and began supporting its training program in 2008. He was promoted to his current role as the National USNR program manager in twenty seventeen, based at the South Pacific Division. In June twenty twenty five, Jeff moved his wife and stepdaughter to Huntsville, Alabama. Where he now manages the program remotely from the Redstone Arsenal. Throughout his career, Jeff has been deployed to numerous disaster sites as a structure specialist. His deployments include Hurricane Ike, the Haiti earthquake, the Champlain Towers collapse in Surfside, Hurricane Ian and the California wildfires. Jeff, want to welcome you to the podcast? I know we've we've been chasing each other for a little bit, but I appreciate you I appreciate you being with me here today and ⁓ and welcome in once again. So we'll we'll get right into it. For people unfamiliar with the structures specialist role. What does a structure specialist do on a USAR deployment? Okay. Well yeah, the the structure specialist is basically a structural engineer that goes through in intensive disaster engineering training. And in general they they bring engineering expertise to search and rescue. ⁓ the main job is to keep rescuer rescue teams safe so that they can focus on on the rescue efforts and saving victims. More generally out there assessing the stability of a damaged building looking for hazards, we might be monitoring that for movement and designing temporary shorting shoring to hold up the structure. We basically enable safe entry and safe mobilization across a disaster site. And and how did you personally get involved with the Army Corps of Engineer Urban Search and Rescue Program? Well it ⁓ it it started back ⁓ you know I I actually had interests ⁓ early ⁓ in even in high school ⁓ in well in in engineering ⁓ It it started back I actually have I have an identical twin brother and ⁓ my phone. No, I'm not nope. ⁓ we we're we're identical technically, but we don't look so identical these days. But generally we my folks weren't weren't sure if they'd be able to put two two ⁓ kids in college at the same time. And so my backup plan was to become a firefighter. So ⁓ I took all the tests and and ⁓ did really well and ⁓ unfortunately they they neglected to include the funding element on the the levy that they were trying to pass in the city and they didn't get put on the ballot at all and so they they weren't hiring. I was at top of the list, but ultimately we were able to get the financial aid and went to school and ⁓ went in went into engineering. And so to get involved in this program, once I started working for the Corps of Engineers, I had transferred to the Seattle district and my my cubicle neighbor at the time was on the strip the the search and rescue team and and I just heard him talking to people on the phone and I asked him directly because I, you know, that that piqued my interest because I had interest in building things as an engineer, but also had that fire service ⁓ interest and and ⁓ and so that that piqued my interest and learned about it. And and ⁓ the Corps of Engineers actually while we have this structure specialist cadre, it they we run the training program that trains all structure specialists. And just a little bit more on the structure specialist position is that's That's a position a formal position on a FEMA search and rescue task force. And so the Corps of Engineers, ⁓ we while we have a cadre of, you know, currently we have roughly thirty across the country. And the FEMA is typically able to handle ⁓ disasters like hurricanes and tornadoes and and flood responses and wide area search type scenarios without a whole lot of, you know, disaster engineering r support requirements. But they do have Two structure specialists per task force. So if it's a large scale collapse earthquake or or multi story complex collapse like surfside, then then you're gonna need more engineering support than those two per task force. And that's when they call the core to ⁓ tap into our resources to to augment their teams. I was gonna say, so they can they can call on you exactly to augment whatever their capabilities are. Right. Right. Gotcha. And it and it's you know, the training that we go through serves us well in in supporting some of these emergency support function three missions like the critical infrastructure ⁓ assessment teams and ⁓ you know, ⁓ debris missions and things that might need some structural engineering support as well, since we have a bit more intensive training than those teams that go out for those types of missions that they can they can get our structural engineering resources really quick. quickly and rapidly deploy for that support as well. So you talked about the the training side of it on the the structural specialist side. What is the pipeline to become qualified in the role that you're in? Yeah, it's it's ⁓ it's fairly rigorous. It's it's ⁓ involves I the the the the position requirement itself requires at least five years of structural engineering experience, requires that you have your license. And so you'll have that, you know, educational requirement and after You know, you're entit you you get your you can get your PE license after four years of actual experience. And so, ⁓ you know, there's other elements that help candidates become a structure specialist, but those are the the the the base requirements is that that experience and licensure. Once you once you've got those, then you're you're eligible to attend the certification training that the Corps of Engineers puts on and get certified to serve in that formal structure specialist role. that supports the FEMA teams. Okay. And you know, what skills or mindset separate a good structured specialist from a great one? Well it it all comes down to mindset. And you can imagine that, you know, the stereotypical engineer is is ⁓ not necessarily cut in for this kind of thing. You know, it's it takes a different type of of engineer and mindset to to actually put yourself in this kind of role. You know, it it's ⁓ you know a good STS has the technical skills But a great one is is driven kind of by that service mindset, the humanitarian mindset to perform under extreme pressure. You know, in the civilian world, the engineers play defense. You know, they they follow building codes and they perform multiple design reviews and avoid risk. But at ground zero, you know, you have to play offense and and you know, the structure specialist has to creatively and rapidly figure out how to make a dangerous building safe enough to get rescuers inside rather than just throwing her hands up saying it's it's unsafe. One of the common things that we bring in training is is ⁓ you know, if if there's someone, if a firefighter hears someone calling for help in this nasty collapse site, they're going in. There's not, there's no stopping them. And and so it's we never say it's a no go scenario. It's 'cause it's, you know, we it nothing is safe when you're going for this for a collapse rescue operation. And so it's it's a we call it a slow go. And ⁓ you know, I I I can get into that ⁓ a bit more, but ⁓ in general that's that's the kind of mindset. So it you know, you have to be able to get you're not not afraid of getting dirty is I think a big one on the ⁓ yeah engineering side. Okay. So in an operational mission, when a FEMA task force deploys, where does the structure f specialist fit into that operational picture? ⁓ there there's a lot of different ⁓ you know, management ⁓ I guess divisions within a task force and one of like, you know, if You've got your your ups, folks, and your planning and and safety and and we we fit in and report to the planning team manager. But ⁓ with boots on the ground, we're we're hip to hip with the search and rescue managers and and ⁓ you know the rescue personnel from the initial reconnaissance to ⁓ actually going in the hole and mitigating hazards as as you go. ⁓ talking about deployments, and I you know, in your bio we read that you you're well traveled in this trade. You know, the first The first operational period when things are, you know, pretty chaotic at a collapse. What is that what does that look like from your end arriving on a scene? Especially I mean, whether that's Haiti or whether that's surfside or, you know, from what you've seen. So yeah, I'll tell you Haiti was a unique experience because then every mission that we ended up ⁓ being involved with it was such a chaotic scene. You know, you didn't know w what you saw this amount. But ⁓ you know, it essentially eventually it initially involves ⁓ a ramped recon and and and structural triage. We're quickly evaluating multiple class structures in some cases to to figure out ⁓ a couple of things. Basically which buildings are most likely to have viable victims and what is the risk level to to the rescuers. And we feed that directly to task force leaders so that they know exactly where to focus their efforts and what resources might be needed for that. So yeah, it it is a a chaotic environment and so it you gotta Get your head on straight, see what you're looking at. Hopefully you can do some early recon as you're deploying to an incident to kind of get some of some sense of of what you're what you're going to and and what potential collapse elements ⁓ there might be. What was what was your experience at Surfside? ⁓ Surfside, that was it was an interesting one. It it initially started with with that being in Florida. Florida has six, I believe six task forces. There's there's two federal teams. But but an additional four state teams. And so they had a lot of local resources that were able to mobilize to that incident. Not not as many structure specialists with those. So, you know, each of the federal teams are required to have a certain number. And they did have a good good number of them, but that's where they needed additional engineering support, especially when you've got part of that structure is still standing and ⁓ with with at a great risk and and when there that was an unknown cause of collapse and ⁓ It's and sudden collapse. And so operating and making rescues in in that standing structure, you know, we were able to to do that from the exterior and make limited entry to to h assist people to to get out, but at at great potential risk with with that house of cards essentially that you didn't know if it was going to be the next thing to collapse. So Right. And but that's a that's a you bring up a good point because you know, you have people working around that that partial structure that's still standing. What are the biggest hazards that rescuers often underestimate in partially collapsed structures? I I I think the the biggest hazard ⁓ is secondary collapse. You know, there's like I said, if there's people inside and ⁓ they're they're gonna go in. And so ⁓ the you know, the mindset of of fire rescue personnel is is pretty ⁓ focused. You know, it's not they don't blindly go into a a completely life risk scenario. to to do to do that. But ⁓ secondary collapses and and working in fall zones. And that that's a good example in surfside is that existing structure what had a, you know, typically we're we're creating fall ⁓ fall zones that to to operate outside of that are equivalent to about one and a half times the height of that building. Well that rubble pile was completely in the fall zone of that existing structure. And so So that risk was was taken. There were a lot of ⁓ people that had had ⁓ ultimately perished in that in that structure. And so that that was a a challenging one to enforce, particularly for for local teams who actually knew some of the victims in in that structure. And so they had a personal motive to working some of these more hazardous areas. And so but yeah, an aftershock or shifting debris, even just the vibrations of our own equipment and rescue tools could could compromise some of the structural elements that are temporarily being held up by a debris pile. And so so it's those types of things that the structure specialists can can ⁓ bring some focus to ⁓ with the rest of the personnel and and ⁓ and and leaders. And what's the difference? You're talking about surf side, but you were in Haiti also where, you know, the construction type is totally different. How do you take that into account when you are assessing these structures? That's I I think in Haiti was was a little bit different because by the time we got there, it was generally very little expectation of survivors. And so while it was ⁓ such poor construction, poor poor quality concrete, and we could take some of the CMU bricks that that that they were using for constructing walls and crumble them in our hand and and it was and so those types of collapses were or pancake collapses. And with with even even the slabs were made out of CMU, not not necessarily a poured slab. And so those things, pancake collapsing, just turned to powder. And so there was very little void ex spaces for pe I mean there were some early rescues, but the numbers were pretty low. And if you recall the the the death toll on that one was was a was massive and and over a hundred thousand, you know, and so it was ⁓ a huge incident and but but ⁓ again, you know, we didn't have a whole lot of information on some of the structures we were operating in and ⁓ you know, tack on poor poor quality materials and right standards and ⁓ you know, adding on this this particular structure. We worked at the Hotel Montana, which was a one of the nicer hotels that a lot of foreign dignitaries would would would stay at and meet merg military personnel and ⁓ It was a four story hor hotel originally and they added a fifth floor onto it, which made it even more top heavy on the side of a hill that ⁓ made it w very susceptible. And so it ⁓ these things we learn and get information from building owners and things like that to to try to size up the footprint and where voids might be and and where people might be and and ⁓ and ⁓ but that ⁓ you know, each each incident is very different. Of course. Surf side, you know, of course we had had piles of of concrete slabs that had pancake collapsed. And there were some similar elements to seeing pancake collapses in Haiti. ⁓ but ⁓ each each one's you need. Yeah. Yeah, of course. But in that same sense, I mean you still must have a a a process that you use. Can you walk us through the process of assessment, hazard mitigation, ensuring decisions along with rescue access? Yeah, sure. ⁓ the ⁓ that process involves ⁓ you know, Like I said, there's a there's some during the mobilization phase, you're doing some early recon, just electronic recon is so so to speak. But once you're on the ground, you you start employing that rapid structural triage, identifying based on the incident, if what time of day did it occur? You know, was it a public school or a hospital or something or an office building or or was it during business hours? So you kind of assess some of those elements to see. you know, likelihood of people even being in the structure and ⁓ what type of construction it is to ⁓ identify what kind of void potential there is. And so those are are the things that play into the structural triage and identify a prioritization of which structure should be sear searched first. What's the where's the the better risk versus reward criteria to to weigh into that triage process. Once you identify those priorities, then you do a little bit more detailed assessment. Usually that involves a 360 walk around the entire structure and you're kind of looking at to see what kind of structural elements may have collapsed, which are still sound, which ⁓ you know, what kind of mitigation measures, how can you get in? Are you, you know, can you hear people? And at that point, once you identify that this is a you know a priority search or rescue ⁓ structure, then we're we're now creating mitigation plans where we identify What are the shoring needs? Where can we enter the structure more safely? Or what can we do to make an entrance more safe and not create additional collapse risks? That might involve shoring. It might be tying back, you know, what we call ⁓ widow makers that are just hanging off a structure and could fall from wind blowing or it's, you know, just temperature differences that cause ⁓ some movement. ⁓ we'll set up monitoring of these structures to, you know, while things are being put in place, like rescue shoring and things like that, we can have kind of a a monitoring effort with our structural monitoring tools to identify if there's any movement that is significant enough to kind of blow the horn and get people to to you know evacuate to you know if there's a potential for for secondary collapse. ⁓ so you you talked about the structural triage information and you know I've heard that in terms of SARCOP or Survey123. Do you guys have a lot to do with that in in that because I know that is a growing portion that structural tri ⁓ triage sheet. It is. ⁓ it we have implemented some ⁓ some of what we do as structure specialists into the SARCOP element and even some of our structural monitoring with you know and that's something ⁓ that I know back with the the planning cell is is is tracking what particularly for wide area search and and we we do support some of those efforts as well that aren't s so much a very technical element, but ⁓ we use a lot of technical tools and train on those and so we c we support the task forces however we can and and but s SARCOP is is one element that with with the triage that we're we're identifying. Once we do that triage and identify the risks, the potential f you know, victims and the prioritization, that data gets fed right up to ⁓ you know, the the planning and management sill to to to ⁓ start the ⁓ you know deploying their teams to to those different structures to make to make rescue efforts. But ⁓ but yeah it's it's very much the the the SARCOP tools, ⁓ the monitoring tools, those technical elements are are growing. How is that how has that changed the game for you guys as well? All the information SARCOP and in the structural triage, putting it in the hands of the people on the ground? Yeah, it's it's ⁓ it's pretty huge and it's ⁓ you know One of the things we learned at Surfside ⁓ was, you know, different elements that have actually helped ⁓ further develop how we use the tool. ⁓ Surfside since it was an unknown collapse was treated as a crime scene. And so all these key structural elements for that were trying to identify the cause of collapse, you know, they ⁓ NIST was the the outfit that was doing the investigation and and needing to do, you know, collect evidence for for analysis. And so we used basically survey one, two, three and quick capture to document evidence pieces where it was on the pile, a photo of it and and that data was was very extremely useful to to piece that together to per perform their analysis. But other other technologies, ⁓ use of drones, robotics, you know, robotics is something that's that's further getting further developed. ⁓ we haven't used it ⁓ with with Corps of Engineers yet, but I know that some tools ⁓ are becoming more prevalent on on state and federal teams. ⁓ there's always some some limitations on what we can do. ⁓ if if it's a federal disaster and you know, you've got drones flying, there's some some ⁓ some some rules against that still. But ⁓ it's been a we're getting there. We're getting there valuable tool to ⁓ Yeah. I I think one of the the big takeaways I saw from the surf side, you know, presentations that I've seen from people who've been there is the use of survey one, two, three and the drones and how they would map the debris layer every day of how they were delaying. I I thought it was pretty incredible. It was and it it helps identify, you know, ⁓ what you're figuring on too is the the volume of debris that's ⁓ that's being pulled out and you can identify this much debris that's been removed, you can see what's remaining and ⁓ based on the the design of the structure and and ⁓ it it it's ⁓ it's a productivity tool, I guess, as well as far as assessing that and and what what the cleanup requirements might be and and managing debris and things like that as well. But ⁓ yeah, it's ⁓ there's quite a quite a wide scope of of what drones can bring and and even sending it inside that structure that's still standing to identify, you know, ⁓ elements that you know are are too risky for personnel to go into. So ⁓ and that and that was done at surfside too. Yeah. No, the future it I mean, the future of disaster responses is obviously happening right now. ⁓ as far as the Army Corps engineer goes, you know, you guys are a a mix between sort of FEMA, the military, ⁓ and the fire service. How different are FEMA military and local jurisdiction rescue environments operationally from from your end? What have you seen? Well, ⁓ the the the the local field departments are kind of the the tip of the spear, but they they Generally, like surfside's a good example. Like ⁓ some of the state teams were there. ⁓ of course Florida is is ⁓ is right there as well. And they do have a lot of those tools. But in general, the the local fire departments, you know, they might not have sufficient gear and equipment for massive structural collapse. And so that's where, you know, they try to get additional outside resources to come in. The military teams, ⁓ like I'm I don't think I mentioned we we su we support the the Army Aviation Brigade has a ⁓ kind of they're considered the twenty ninth task force ⁓ by some and it's a rescue engineering company for the army that just operates in the national capital region. So we serve as air structure specialists as well. And but they follow a military chain of command and that type of structure. And so that's that's a little different. You know, it's ⁓ you know there there is that structure there. And so we we come in and they they're keen on learning from from the FEMA system then and the national response framework, but ⁓ the FEMA task forces, they bring it all together and they're they're high highly standardized for for these type of massive complex disasters. No, absolutely. But in the same sense, what lessons can a municipal fire department take from federal USR? I I'd say that that standardization lesson it it's it's it relies on the standardized job description, training, equipment caches, procedures and that level of uniformity is what allows completely different teams to mesh together seamlessly for massive complex disasters and so yeah. No, I I think that is the FEMA team, you know what you're getting when two teams come together from, you know, different sides of the country. But I on the engineer side, how do you how do you, you know, you are maybe coming in to augment a team. How do you build trust quickly on scene between engineers and, you know, people you've never worked with before? Is it that standardization? It's yeah. And it it's critical. I mean it's it's ⁓ when you when you standardize and you know When we like I'll I'll talk about training as well, but the training is something that ⁓ you know, particularly when we're working with, you know, FEMA task forces, some of the state teams and those that attend our training, it's all done through the same class. And and we actually the Corps of Engineers is the only offers the only training for structure specialist certification, you know, out there. It's there's nowhere else you get it. So everyone comes to the same training. They train together and they learn the same things. And it's ⁓ you know, it's it's it's critical to ⁓ you know, when you've got different agencies on the rubble pile, everyone needs to be speaking the same language and have common terminology and and ⁓ and so that's that's ⁓ it's it's critical. And you know, it's it's something that ⁓ you know, when you're using the the common marking systems and procedures to in the midst of chaos, you know, when you've got that training to fall back on, you you ⁓ that really that really is where where the trust is established and you you know, people are These task forces are, you know, there's twenty eight teams across the country. We've got our personnel across the country as well. And you can be a a California team supporting in Florida, you know, supporting an incident. But they've all they all go through the same training and we've seen each other before. And so we you know, we can see a guy on the that event and say, Okay, I I know you, let's talk and and you can jump right in and work together. And so it's it's it's critical and and that's that's really helps with the trust element. Yeah, and I think just to speak to that point, I think it's such a small community that, you know, if you travel for training, you meet a lot of these people and then to automatically show up and say, Hey, you know, we have an established relationship. That's I think that's hugely important in tech rescue and in ⁓ you know, USAR deployments. You mentioned training. What does training actually look like behind the scenes for you guys? Well, the Corps of Engineers particularly for me particularly, it's ⁓ it'll manage the the urban search and rescue program. But ⁓ part of that is running this training program for for all instructor specialists. And so ⁓ it's a big part of my job is just managing the annual training that we prepare and deliver for for FEMA. And it's ⁓ being that it's so unique and that we're the only provider for this training, we do get interest from from all the state teams that that are out there. ⁓ there's some that really haven't come through our training program and don't have engineers that support. some of the smaller state teams. But ⁓ we've even had international rescue teams that have come to attend our our training with the uniqueness and the ⁓ you know we've got some real high level elite professors and and ⁓ that or even a PhD level professors who are actually in the FEMA system yeah serving as as ⁓ lead structure specialists for you know, the IST and and ⁓ and and and different academia, but others that just have been in the system a while to provide the the intensive training at such a high level to to do that. But but yeah, as far as training, it's it's something that's a continuous effort. We we do require refresh training. There's a lot of perishable skills exact the engineer that, you know, the the engineers are for the FEMA teams, they're they're generally in a a private structural company. It might be their own company, you know, on the federal side, you know, we, you know the the FEMA teams, their structure specialists, they have quarterly training that they'll do with their own teams. The Corps of Engineers structure specialists don't have that team association. It's all we're a group within the core. And so we have additional requirement with our refresher regional training that we put on for them to try to maintain those same type of more frequent skills and and exercises to to sustain those those perishable skills. And on the engineering side, What would you consider a perishable skill? And I know on the tech rescue side, like rope for me is like I have to be in it. It's something that will degrade very fast. What does that look like for the engineers? Yeah, I you know, that's you know, the perishable skills for the engineers generally are are some of those more technical ones. ⁓ you know, ⁓ like I said, we're you know, these private engineers that work for their own companies or if the core, they don't do this every day. You know, these these ⁓ monitoring equipment like ⁓ the total station, it's a You know, some engineers do a lot of surveying and they'll use it a lot, but most don't do that every day. And especially as they gain more experience and start getting to more administrative or supervisory roles in an engineering company and things like that, they're not doing as much technical application of of their engineering. And so so those are the things we make sure to cover in depth at each of our refresher trainings. ⁓ it's something we we employ during exercises that we participate in. the SARCOP stuff that that's that's ever changing every every year. In fact, sometimes we do these we do three refresher trainings per year. It's a weekend regional training in the east, central and west FEMA regions. And ⁓ sometimes between each session there have been a change to the SARCOP requirements and when, you know, the the quick capture and some of the different different process field maps and how it's being used and developing new forms and and the whole process. And so ⁓ you've got to keep keep our guys, our instructors even ⁓ have to keep busy with ⁓ keeping their ⁓ training materials up to date. Yeah, it's it's amazing how fast that is evolving and the almost daily ch the daily changes that seem to come out of it. I I think from the even the past couple of years, like from what I've seen, the rollout of it to where it's at now, it's it's mind blowing. And what the future, you know, is gonna be of this thing. ⁓ I don't know. We'll see what happens, I guess. But You talk about training and perishable skills, but the importance of training what makes collapse training or rescue training difficult to replicate realistically? It's that's the the it it it's difficult to replicate sheer chaos. So, you know, when you've got a a collapse and you know, they're you know, you got people crying and and or you don't even know what the structure even looks like or what it used to look like and it's ⁓ you know, the And the high stakes and the risks associated with collapse hazards, it's it's difficult to to to replicate those. You know, a real disaster has those immense time pressure elements. You got sleep deprivation, you know, there's a psychological weight of of what, you know, that there's lives that you're trying to save, or you might be you might be witness to some awful things and and it it it ⁓ it takes a mental toll. And you really It's really difficult to ⁓ to bring bring that ⁓ to replicate that for in training, you know. Yeah, that's stress. That's that exactly. Exactly. I think that's something we we actually we do a fairly good job of of bringing, yeah, and that's part of of tra taking an engineer from the office and putting them in a disaster zone. And ⁓ we we have an advanced structure specialist class that we put on too. It's a it's a five day training ⁓ where it's very heavily scenario based. those instructors that are have been in the system and have deployed. One one of our instructors is a retired FDNY firefighter who was on New York's task force. ⁓ he responded to nine eleven, for example, and and some other big big ones like Oklahoma City bombing and bringing bringing a a a New York firefighter and of course the, you know, your your common New York accent and and personality and firefighter language and and Yeah. And you you have you have an engineer come out of a c you know, a confined space ⁓ scenario and having to report to this New York firefighter who's in your face, or what do I need? I need to get my guys in there. What's it look like? You know, yeah, that's stressful. These types of yeah, we these types of things we try to to bring ⁓ to promote that rapid decision making. You know, something normally we're going back and Hey, let's let's review this. Okay, we got our 35% milestone. Let's have some meetings and now we got our 50% milestone. You know, and so it's all these these different ⁓ time that you associated with collaborating where you need to be really quick on your feet. And if you can look that task force leader in the eye, and you know, if there's a a a significant risk, ⁓ you have to be able to confidently explain this is why we can't do this yet. You know, yeah, there's people in there, but you also have this bean that's got a big crack and it moved three inches in the last thirty minutes and it's holding thirty thousand pounds. You know, and so those those type of you I'm I'm giving examples of actual things that that have been presented in our class to where a a structure specialist needs to provide that kind of input ⁓ in a manner that that okay, they get it now. And we kind of joke back and forth a little bit, you know, the firefighters call us, you know, put our propeller hats on and And we we joke with them saying we gotta we gotta draw them a stick figure picture. So cause it's I do need that explains I do need to explain things to them. But but it's ⁓ you know, I think through the years of since this program and since structure specialists have been a formal position, there's been some confidence and and better reliance and and teamwork and trust that's been developed due to ⁓ some of those elements that have assisted with with ⁓ promoting safe rescue and you know if they go in there and cause a secondary collapse, everything's gonna stop and slow down. Yeah. And I think that goes back to you said a slogo kind of mentality, just take it. Right. Right. You talked earlier about like at SurfSide when these smaller departments are responding to these large events, you know, first because it's their jurisdiction. What should these smaller departments focus on if they're trying to improve their their collapse rescue capability in those early hours. You know, ⁓ you know, I we talked about the standardization piece and how how the importance of that is, but ⁓ I I think there's just some fundamentals that ⁓ like size sizing up and what what the collapse is and ⁓ hazard identification. You want to identify those right away. ⁓ and you know, identify what, you know, what the risks might be with those hazards. If you do need engineering support, there's a lot of times where you're gonna identify it you need some more resource. Surfside's another good example where well, you know, Florida One was the first team out there for such a massive collapse. And ⁓ you know, your structure specialists should be, you know, of course, in retrospect, you look at, okay, nobody was doing monitoring on that right away. And this thing could have collapsed any moment, but you only had like two structure specialists there on at the onset and they're going in to support the teams that are going in. To help make operations more safe there. But yeah, learning how to recognize different building types and ⁓ different collapse patterns. You can imagine a steel structure ⁓ might is is going to have a different collapse pattern than a concrete one or a masonry one and and where there might be survival voids. So if you have some awareness of the types of collapse patterns for different types of buildings, that's ⁓ you know important ⁓ to recognize that. If small departments can master rapid risk assessments and building marking systems, that'll make ⁓ much Safer initial decisions and know exactly when to call for those specialized resources. I mean, I think that's important. Those those first couple hours probably really make the difference, you know, in survivability early on in these local departments, local responders are the ones that are going to affect those rescues. ⁓ on the on the leadership side, culture side of of these of the FEMA USAR teams and you know, even the Army Corps of Engineers, what leadership traits, you know, matter most on these teams? That's that's a it's an important question. ⁓ you know, think ⁓ when we talk about the different types of engineers that might be called to or that might be able to serve in this capacity, ⁓ they all have to be kind of that type A personality and be leaders, you know, have leadership experience because you're you're working in this chaotic environment and having to make quick decisions. Another another important element that I didn't mention before was, you know, you might be the ⁓ you know, the owner of your business and the the top engineer, your lead guy and and you're, you know, you're kind of the the king. You you know what comes to you, you make the decisions, what you say goes and and that's that's ⁓ there's an ego element to that. And so when you're on a when you're this you know this this great engineer with your own business and you've got kind of a a ego build from that and you come to a disaster scene, you're not you're not the boss. And so you gotta check your ego. at the door on on some of these things and just have that mindset to where you're gonna need to support support the team and and ⁓ in whatever way you can and be collaborative and ⁓ you know conflicts arise and the the the joke with engineers is if you've got four engineers in the room and you ask them all a question, you're gonna get six different answers. You know, so it's ⁓ it's it's ⁓ it's something that has been an issue on probably most major incidents when you've got multiple engineers trying to approach a solution and having to have that mindset to resolve conflict amongst yourselves and recognize the the goal and the the support that the task force needs to to to ⁓ to operate and and ⁓ make make those rescues, it's it's it's an important important one. No, absolutely. Did I answer your question on that? No, no. I mean for sure. And I'm just it It's the same thing. I think even on the the the team side coming from like the fire service, I think that's what works so great is you know, I'm a captain on the fire service, but when I go to the task force, I'm just a rescue specialist and I just I'm there to dig I'm there to dig and break concrete and like stay in my lane and and do what I have to do. And I think that's the mindset you just sort of you have to put into it. ⁓ it and I ⁓ I like the joke about the the four engineers and the six the six outcomes. That sounds about right. But I mean it is as far as team dynamics goes well and the culture behind a team, what do you think creates that strong bond or that strong culture in some of these teams that that just make them fit? Honestly, I think with the you know, there's the r that requirements requirement to to ⁓ stay ready, ⁓ the readiness requirement. And with with that, you know, is the routine training. ⁓ I mentioned that the task forces generally have some quarterly trainings. And ⁓ you know, unfortunately a lot of the efforts for conducting exercises and training together is is ⁓ you know impacted by available funding and things like that. But but in general, I think with with how we maintain routine training and exercises, particularly the exercises, because when we're doing full scale exercises, you're that's the closest thing to a real event that you can engage in. And you're you're doing nighttime operations and and you're ⁓ you know, you're kind of getting to those fatigue points and, you know, working 12 hour shifts and rotating, doing handoffs with other shift personnel and and working together. And it's it's ⁓ you know, beyond that, there's also ⁓ some of these continuing education events where where all of these teams also, you know, you're off the pile. You don't have your your your rescue gear on, you're ⁓ you know, you're you know you're talking in rooms and kind of figuring out how can how can you improve things and and I I think you're I think you're right on there. Good teams talk. I think they talk to each other and they strive to get better. And that's you know, those after action reports and and hey, what did the humility of hey, what did we get wrong? And get better. Yeah. ⁓ that's an important piece to to building out and sustaining those teams. Big picture wise, how has the collapse rescue world evolved over the last decade? Well, I'd say the technology piece is is ⁓ probably the biggest one and as fast as technology is is advancing and and now we've got AI tools. Now we're talking AI with drones and and size, you know, probably fly a drone and put some AI capabilities in it and do monitoring from the air continuously and things like that. We're relying heavily on some more of these advanced tools for structural monitoring, ⁓ like with with the remote sensors and things like that. We do have kind of it's become an older system, but there are newer developments kind of on the horizon for wireless building monitoring. We actually do have a wireless building monitoring system that we use, but it's big and clunky and and and heavy and you have to go into a a collapse zone to to ⁓ implement it. And so there's different different things like that. You know, disasters like Champlain Towers and Surfside ⁓ emphasize the need to integrate engineers and and rescue teams intimately from early on to to implement a lot of these ⁓ technologies that that w like the monitoring equipment that we're turr currently using. But yeah, I see I see advancements coming on that and hopefully we can get sufficient funding to get some of these new fancier tools to to ⁓ employ with our teams. And along with the tools, I I mean things on the construction side are also changing. Are buildings becoming more difficult to rescue in these modern buildings with modern construction methods? Yeah, I'd say ⁓ you know, modern lightweight construction and highly engineered systems are are strong under normal conditions, but they can They can fail suddenly and unpredictably. And it creates a much more complex, unstable debris field, you know, compared to older traditional construction methods. And what concerns you the most about technical rescue and the the future challenges of in disaster response? I I'd say the increasing frequency of large scale catastrophic events. You know, it's ⁓ we don't see, you know, one thing we look at with with w internally within our program. I mean, it's kind of the more administrative funding th side that I'm always battling with our headquarters for for ⁓ the different emergency response teams that we have. But ⁓ a lot of these heavy structural collapse types of disasters, those aren't as common. However, we've got a lot of aging infrastructure out there. Surfside's an example of of you know, in a high level salt salt level air and corrosion potential on rebar if if you're not doing proper maintenance of of the structures. That that incident did ⁓ make you know ⁓ make some improvements to the inspection codes for condominiums, for example, and and ⁓ some of those requirements for maintenance. But ⁓ yeah, I I think those more frequent events ⁓ we're seeing hurricanes more frequently, the, you know, the the talk about ⁓ you know, global warming and things like that and its impact with more f frequent hurricanes and tornadoes and And ⁓ and things like that are are ⁓ creating more more disasters that that threaten to overwhelm our response capabilities. And so with that aging and infrastructure in the in the path of of some of these ⁓ disasters, ⁓ you know, we're doing our best to keep everybody trained. But I I think you know, keeping you know, we we need new blood to be brought in ⁓ probably in all all areas and and so that's ⁓ that's that's something that's ⁓ also a challenge. Yeah, passing the torch on and making sure that those those traits get passed on to people that can take that that the reins and run with it, I guess. That follows with ⁓ that follows with our our training as well. I mean, we d we are I think we pride ourselves on keeping up with current events and and adjusting our training to cover some new new lessons learned, for example. But we've we've got the same most most of the same instructors that we started off with back in the mid nineties. And so we've got an aging instructor cadre as well that that we need to build the bench and and bring in some new experience there to carry the torch there as well. That's absolutely an important point. I talked about I in the fire service and building our our teams, special operation teams, I talk about succession and the need to have a plan to who is gonna come behind you to make sure that that program can sustain and carry on and and you know, complete that mission. So I that's absolutely a very important point. As far as collapse goes. What do you think the fire service in general still sort of misunderstands misunderstands about collapse operations? I think it's pretty common and ⁓ taking time for engineering slows down the rescue. But you mentioned this earlier. I think, you know, rushing in blindly to an unstable structure is a recipe for disaster for secondary collapse, which pretty much will stop everything. ⁓ and so th that that'll slow the the initial rescue response and and it may even, you know, diminish it because of potential lives lost during select ⁓ secondary collapses. And so I think proper engineering assessment and shoring plans are exactly what allows ⁓ the operation to proceed efficiently and and safely. Gotcha. And just some closing questions for you. What deployment or experience has stayed with you the most throughout your time? You know, ⁓ I that that is a question that I'm asked ⁓ quite a bit. And that's ⁓ I'd probably say the Haiti deployment. And and this is ⁓ we touched on this a little bit just on on how how does training mimic what you had experience on a real event and that and the challenges with that. And the biggest one is is some of those things you see, like you'll you'll see death and you'll s you know you'll see ⁓ what it happens to people. And ⁓ in Haiti, ⁓ we ⁓ the owner of the structure was survived that and and was ⁓ but had family that was in it, had had employees and one of her family members was a security guard who watched over her son, who was a toddler at the time and was in the structure. And we got to the location where they ⁓ were expected to be in and they'd found found them and and ⁓ you could see f I I was monitoring the the equip heavy equipment on the top of a rubble pile, which was a critical operation 'cause we were delaying this site and ⁓ we had to give hand signals to an operator on how to carefully lift things to to w make our efforts to recover and we got to this zone and and it was right on the edge of where an excavator, you know, if if it went past this line, ⁓ it would have caused further collapse. There was voids below it. And and so it was something that was was kind of a reality check. But what what I observed was they they located the the security guard and he was cradling the boy in his arms. And and so you kinda get a you know, it it was something that gets in your head a little bit. I had toddlers at the time, you know, and you're seeing the you know, envisioning the last moments of these two lives. And and so it it caused a pause, but it at the same time, you know, I'm doing a job here and this is that mindset we're talking about. And you you've got to be thinking about, you know, the safety of the personnel that are working there and ⁓ you know, what you're what you're called to do. And so that that one is ⁓ has stuck with me and it ⁓ emphasizes the need to include some training elements that talk about the ⁓ Critical incident stress disorder, you know, the you know, and and s some of what what you might expect in that. And that you can talk about it, but it's another thing to experience. And so it's ⁓ I believe that is a growing theme in the FEMA USAR system. I think you're hearing hearing more and more of that. I I think even in some of the the postmission debriefs now, that's becoming a required part, which is I mean, probably a good thing, you know, considering like that. So and that resiliency is is very important. Absolutely. You you've had a storied career. Throughout your time, what what advice would you give to a young firefighter or even a young engineer who's who's interested in in disaster use R? You know, we ⁓ we do the training. We do for some, you know, if if someone we'd often do these VIP days where they can come and observe and see we with new engineers that are have interest in in the structure specialist training, you know, a lot of them will have this adventure, adventurous thought of, yeah, that'd be really a cool thing to to support and And once they get to the training and we stick ⁓ in a hole, they now realize that ⁓ I've I've got an issue in confined spaces and and so and that kinda kinda weeds them out. But ⁓ for the young firefighter, I'd say, you know, master your craft as a firefighter first, but you know, take opportunities to study building construction and ⁓ if you want to go the STS route, of course you need to get your degree in in engineering and and get licensed. But Be a continuous learner, seek out mentors. I that's ⁓ I think that's just an important important element to to to learn from from others. Yeah, you you me ⁓ you brought up mentors and I think in tech rescue, you SAR, ⁓ you know, on anything honestly in a skill in life, like the role that a mentor plays in that position is incredibly important. And to have somebody to look up to and ask questions to is is vital to that, you know, to growing in your position. That's have you did you have anyone that, you know you were able to to look up to and call a mentor on your your way up. You know, I'd say through in high school I and ⁓ I wouldn't consider a mentor. It was a it was a wrestling coach. He was a he was a down to earth man, he was a gunsling man and it was just he he was a a figure that that spoke into the lives of of the athletes he was coaching and and ⁓ it was in a in a personal level and and it was something that ⁓ that stuck with me and ⁓ you know it it ⁓ it sh it somewhat shaped me in in my pursuit of a career even, not necessarily towards fire service, but just in in I guess character building. And so that was that was an early mentor. Once I got into college, and ⁓ my there was a PhD structural professor, Dr. Richard Schwaggler. He ⁓ was an incredible man, incredible ⁓ structural engineer. And I think he actually got his start with the Corps of Engineers. And so that it was interesting that that was an opportunity that that presented itself. I didn't start with the Corps, I was with the Bureau of Reclamation right out of college. But he ⁓ he was a good mentor through through ⁓ you know the college learning experiences and and ⁓ you know of course having some of those early interests in firefighting. I I did have an uncle who was a firefighter early on so that might have spurred some some thoughts there. But those were those were mine. Yeah. No, like I said, I think that's I think that's very important. And I'll leave you with one final question. Is it is it possible? Does the government have the technology to download the fog manual directly into my brain? Are we there yet? We we've got a PDF online and available right now. But ⁓ it you know, you can stick it on your phone, that's about the best we could do right now. And I suppose some smartwatches might be a little smaller read, but Yeah. Well it's ⁓ it's a technology in process, we'll say. And when does that update? How many how many years, you know, what's the the time difference between that update? You know, it's ⁓ you know, the the fog itself indicates that it's updated every few years. I think we we ⁓ we're off a year or so with this last cycle. But there there have been new developments and new techniques ⁓ that were recently ⁓ you know, ⁓ developed and even pres pitched to add to the fog. It's it's something that ⁓ we were a little careful on because we're, you know, as a government agency, we're not promoting specific products, but but there are some key products. Like I mean, we're talk we we we design ⁓ timber shores and things like that and have have honed and and mastered the and and made it economize the d the construction and minimize the number of pieces for for shores. But there's also a lot of like hydraulic and and pneumatic shores that are on fire trucks that are much more quickly accessible and can get put in place much more quickly. And and so there's a lot of vendors that want, hey, can we put this in the fog? Put this in the fog. And so we we ⁓ we've got a few ⁓ names in there, but ⁓ we're we're pretty careful on how we ⁓ present that and so but there is some new ⁓ I think there's some trench shoring content. There's some new elements of of how that's being done these days that that ⁓ we're trying to get in there and some geotech ⁓ type ⁓ elements for for the engineer to to have some quick quick reference. That's a little longer answer, but ⁓ yeah, every few years. Yep. We're we're when we get one published, I think the last one was May of twenty five. We ⁓ had Quickly found some things that we needed to fix and ⁓ some things that we'd like to add. ⁓ there's a new six-post lace shore that's been the strongest shore ever tested. It ⁓ it exceeded, you know, we got about 150,000 pounds it was supporting. And so it ⁓ that's that's now added to the new version of the fog. But ⁓ that is a monster. Yeah, yeah, that's ⁓ that's a beast. That's good safety safety zone if you need to. Between you and me and obviously the rest of whoever listens, I am I am miserable at shoring. It is my it is my ultimate downfall. It is my ultimate downfall. So I'm gonna keep your number on a speed dial. So whenever I'm on the field, you know, I'll just FaceTime you. We often get some questions on that, like ⁓ why aren't we using screws? How how many nails, you know, and you know, things like that. But it's ⁓ I'm sure. I'm sure you hear it all. But ⁓ well, hey Jeff, I I just wanna say thank you so much for your time. And you know, it was enlightening for me. I mean I I thought I knew, you know, what structure specialists do, but I know there's a lot more that goes into that. So thank you very much for joining us and ⁓ and we appreciate having you. My pleasure. All right. Well, hey, well thanks for listening to the Rescue Lab Podcast and we'll catch you again with the ⁓ next episode. As we wrap up, if you found value in today's conversation and want to help us continue bringing these stories, lessons, and training opportunities to the rescue community, consider supporting our mission through the New England Rescue Collaborative Foundation. The NERC Foundation is a registered 501c3 nonprofit dedicated to advancing technical rescue training, education, and collaboration for firefighters and rescuers across New England and beyond. Every donation helps us create training opportunities, support scholarships, and invest directly back into the rescue community. You can make a tax-deductible donation through the NRC Foundation Venmo. Every contribution, large or small, help keeps this mission moving forward. If you can't do that, we ask that you give us five stars on the Rescue Lab Podcast Review. And that goes a long way. To learn more about the Foundation, upcoming training opportunities, and future episodes of the Rescue Lab, visit us online at NERescue Collaborative dot com. Until next time, stay curious, stay prepared, and remember, no one is coming. It's up to us.