patrick halloran: The floodwater starts rising before the tones even drop. A small city on the Passaic River slowly turns into what firefighters jokingly call a water park. Roads disappear, basements fill, cars drift. In a department with limited funding, limited staffing, and limited time, the question becomes, how do you build rescue capability without waiting for perfect conditions? This week on the Rescue Lab Podcast, we sit down with Rob Pollock, Lieutenant with the Pasaic Fire Department, founder of Flow Invent, rescue instructor, investigator, volunteer chief, And one of the louder voices pushing the fire service towards critical thinking in modern rescue culture. From the Volunteer Rescue Squad World of New Jersey to FEMA Task Force Exposure at New York City OEM to building rescue capability one small piece at a time in both career and volunteer departments, Rob talks about what it actually takes to sustain rescue culture when resources are tight and expectations are high. This isn't a conversation about flashy gear or massive budgets, it's about momentum, culture, regional collaboration. And why the departments willing to chip away at the rescue block are often the ones quietly building the strongest teams. This is Flow Invent on the Rescue Lab Podcast. Hey, welcome to the Rescue Lab Podcast. I'm PJ Halloran and we're here with Rob Pollock today from FlowInvent. And we're gonna talk volunteer rescue, we're gonna talk ⁓ tech rescue, and we're gonna talk to Rob and see what he's got to say. So Rob, why don't we just well, first of all, welcome. Thanks, brother. Appreciate it. No, absolutely. And why don't you just start? Give us, you know, the quick 30,000 foot view of who is Rob Pollock. Yeah, so my name's Rob Pollock. For those of you who don't know me or or whatever. That sounds kind of forward, but I think at this point in the podcasting world it's you know, there's a couple of names that stick out. But yeah, Rob Pollock here. I'm a lieutenant in the city of Passaic, assigned the ladder two. That's a small little career department in the Bermuda Triangle of ⁓ Giant Stadium, Patterson and Newark. ⁓ we don't have a rescue, but we do a lot with what we have. So that's that. And the volleys I've been involved in another ongoing joke now is thirteen towns in the region going back to Colorado, though, you know. New York and and South Jersey. But ⁓ it's been fun. Now I'm still a volunteer fire chief in South River where ⁓ and I'm sure we'll dive into this where we took a a little town and ⁓ kind of built out a special ops or a rescue component, whatever however you wanna label it. You know, we like to call special ops around here. But yeah, it sounds cool. Yeah. What else? ⁓ Got a couple of degrees, been around the ⁓ the around the world now, I can say, teaching and and f doing fires and stuff. And ⁓ you know, do a little work with all the magazines, primarily with Firehouse now, with ⁓ involved in writing for them and ⁓ sitting on one of the advisory boards and And you just published ⁓ another article. Yeah, we had we had an article pop out what two days ago on ⁓ just thanks, brother, ⁓ on search ops, you know. Kind of more of that techie rescue world approach for the fire service. Like, hey, you're Just 'cause you don't have USA or UASI or some cool tech logo on your equipment or your department doesn't mean you're not doing ninety percent of the searches that, you know, yeah, these teams do. So that dives into that. And ⁓ you know, now kind of reflecting as things go on, it's kinda like, ⁓ we do a lot of the cool stuff. It's just not labeled that way. Yes. And I'm sure we'll dive into stuff, but that's me in a nutshell. I'm sure you can start me apart. Yeah, ⁓ yeah, now you're a cannon fodder. We'll we'll get into that. But so it was just funny, you know. We started talking recently and we sort of connected the dots and I was actually down Seussar and you were presenting and I was in the room and you were talking, you know, your similar story. And that was a I think that just goes to show how how small the tech rescue world really is. ⁓ that we sort of met before we even you know knew who each other was. And what how shoot, sorry. No, I was gonna say how was that experience for you? Dude, I mean Sousar, I this is one thing that I always say now, now you know, through the networks and through writing and publishing and training around the country. That's been an experience to get involved in SUSAR even. Cause for me, up in this area, you know, ⁓ like I grew up in a l in a small town, volunteer fire town, but you know, they had a restriction on age. You had to be a certain a you know, eighteen to do stuff and sixteen's a junior member. So I joined the next town over, had a rescue squad. And the rescue squad you could start doing stuff at 14 because they had an explorer program. And then, you know, you could go to ENT school first and all that fun stuff. But yeah, you know, that's where I started getting involved in the rescue world. And for me, like Listen, I get it. I love going to fires. I love cutting a roof. I love I love a good hallway push. But and I'm you know, like I like the tech world, man. That's just me. Like I like s I I may not look like a rescue diver or swimmer or whatever, but I love the water. Once you understand the water, you know, I I I I just growing up on the shore, i it was a different thing. So, you know, Seussart, just those opportunities, like I think I did three years in a row on for teaching. Last year they had me do two classes. This year we'll see. But, you know, like you said, that the water class for for was surreal because you had some legendary heavy hitters in the water rescue world there. ⁓ packed man. Like, you know, and it was funny 'cause there was a reporter, I guess they were they were doing a follow up on a story. It was either in Florida or the Texas situation or one of the ⁓ post Asheville situations. And this reporter's just doing a quick highlight, not for the conference, but he just needed a room to talk about w whatever, some c flash flood that happened and a pet got swept away or something. So he's like, ⁓ what are we doing here? Why are people funneling him? Like, ⁓ I'm teaching a more of a case study, but just a super basics water rescue approach for firefighters. And the guy's like, Whoa, well look at that timing. So again, timing's everything, unfortunately, but that's life, right? Timing connections. You don't want to hear it growing up, but you you gotta put yourself out there. And it's ⁓ it's been it's been a blessing to me. I I love that stuff. And hopefully ⁓ that's cool. Are you going back? Are you going back this year? We'll see. I hope so. You know, I've been talking to Doug. I've put in a couple of classes. And again, with life, you know, like we said, I did a lot more for the state this year or up here. So my vacation days are a little little tight. Yeah, no, I know. Life life life is busy, ⁓ in all things, but it's a good thing. And I I plan on it, so hopefully I'll see you there. But let's dive into it. You know, you talked you just talked about some of the water stuff. What was it that pulled you into tech rescue work? You know, like you say, we all love the suppression side and and pushing down the hallway. But what was it about tech rescue that you're like, that's for me. Like I said for me, for me, like I mean, I could be cheesy. I was a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, all that immigrant kid, whatever. I think for me it was like once I got involved in the rescue squad bios, I just was exposed to a lot more. Right. This is like the two thousand and six era. So I get it. For those of you that are a little older than me, like this kid's still a kid. I get it. But at the time, you know, that rescue squad was a heavy rescue, a light rescue, and a pickup trucker, however you want to call it. Yeah. From whatever whatever spectrum you're from, the East Coast, West Coast. Yes. They had their little inflatable Zodiac and ⁓ those dudes were covering You know, we were we're on the border of New York, so they covered a little bit of Rockland. They were into the Saddle River Valley with Upper and Saddle River and you know, they had a history in the last at the time. They they lasted about I think nineteen seventy one they officially opened, they closed up in two thousand where were we at college, blah ba pa, maybe two thousand thirteen, twelve, something like that whatever. So they ex forty to fifty years, but they were hard charges at the time, right? They were involved in the water stuff post nine eleven and the the quality of guys we had there is I think what made a big difference in my lineage on where I ended up. f finding a passion on. So we had, you know, a lot of guys that I ended up teaching with at the academy. And a lot of the guys that in this region are very well respected rescue guys were chiefs there at one point. And even when I was there, they were just senior guys that would just pop in, show a drill, hang out, be part of the barbecue, and that was it. So for me it was that unique culture of like the fire, you know, the American firehouse culture, but we were doing technical stuff. And at a young age, obviously, you know, when you're in high school playing sports, the girls, the cars, you're having fun. You're just still developing. I mean, my mind took all that in. So for me it was like, Hey man, zodiacs are badass. Like I l I I love you know, growing up I was fortunate. My parents had a shore house, you know, before the shore turned into the Jersey Shore. And, you know, I loved the ocean. I loved the bayside. And it was just cool to put those two things together. You know, we did a lot at the time and guys that were there way before me, before they had, you know, chopped up the highway the way they did. Like they were running decent entrapments on a monthly, weekly basis, you know, through through their history. So it was like the guys knew what they were doing. You know, then You know, one thing that I brought to where I'm at now and I'm trying to even get it, it's kind of working at work. It's even getting there is, you know, I'm sure this will be a topic we can go crazy on is like how do volunteers stay involved. And it was like it's not just the drills and the fires. Like if you get give out training and you keep this core group of folks involved, you're gonna have a crowd. So for me, that's the way it went. And ⁓ you know, then what, fire service, do my time, I get hired, do this, bounce around and we'll go down the the time went to Colorado and New York. It was you you talked about it was crazy, man. It was good. I'm sure. But starting at it such a young age and and being exposed to that environment, you know, I I I just talked to a structural specialist from the US Army Corps engineers and we were talking about coming up in the rescue world and the importance of having mentors. And I mean, obviously that impacted you at a very early age and and gave you that mindset. And that's an important piece of of co I think coming up into the tech rescue side is finding someone who will help open those doors for you because tech rescue or special ops like it can be kind of a closed off world, right? Well yeah. Absolutely. Very secular in a sense. as we've talked about. But that you know, that that mentorship is very important. So you had mentioned, you know, you mentioned ⁓ Colorado tour. What brought you out to Colorado? So Colorado, like I guess said, you know, immigrant kid. My mom had a hook there with a lady she used to work with here. So I went to school at UC Boulder or CU and ⁓ you know, tried to get involved in the football thing, had a couple of things like that going on in high school. And then I always told myself, like, you know, my parents said, Hey, if you're gonna do life, you got one shot, go enjoy it. And when I was out there, that was already I already started volunteering here, right? So that I started volunteering in high school, got into the school, went out there, and then, you know, two, three days in of being out there, you know, I had family in the state, but you know, you're on your own, you're doing things, right? You're either a in in today's society, you're a college kid, you're you know, you're going right to work to the trades or you're going to the military. It's just how I was taught. And ⁓ ended up just getting involved with the the Boulder Fire Rescue just by luck, just asking questions, getting involved with the campus. And this was a funny tale 'cause ⁓ I got involved on the fire prevention side and that is I've learned not my strong suit, not my thing. But through one of leadership programs in as a freshman, I got involved with the stations and then working with guys. And then they ended up doing like, Hey, what do you want to do? And was like, I hate to say this, I'm probably going home, but I gotta do something with the fire service. So I ended up interning, doing ride alongs, you know, it was like ⁓ I don't even think they had interns at the time. It was just a hook that turned into a project for for another program. That works. It was awesome because I was bouncing around stations checking out. Like for them, you know, for me it was I knew I knew New York, right? I didn't know anything. I knew what I saw, ⁓ YouTube was fresh, so I still had DVDs, right? I had the the post nine eleven Brotherhood in battle videos and DVDs. So for me, I grew up on watching the videos of like rescue one, rescue two, these badass guys. Then I get out there and I'm like, This is a whole different culture, right? They have a station with just an engine and a dive truck. I I don't know what this is, you know. So got involved, bounced around, that was pretty cool. You know, tried to like join the volleys out there, but knowing New Jersey, New York is totally different than anywhere else. You know, 'cause out there they're like, you gotta be a medic or an EMTA or Are you even a diver already? So it was a co it was enough to c hold me over in college while I was out there. And ⁓ it was it was sick because even now I still talk to ⁓ you know, for the Instagram folks, ⁓ Jake Dickies, the Sons of Irons guy. He's a boulder rural guy. We still bounce ideas back and forth and it's that network just continues to grow, you know. What was the what was the main difference that stood out cultural wise between New York and and what you saw up there? Now live in it and again, I'm in New Jersey, but we're all very similar up here in in the in the tri state area. It was just different, right? They run forty eight hour schedules, we run the twenty four or the swing shift of the city guys, but it was just I feel that even it's just more techie, right? Like out like here, you know, you want to get on the rescue company to go to fires, you know, be the guys that are the Navy SEALs of the fire department of that company of that department. And out there those guys are like, hey, no, dude, you gotta know your knots. You gotta know how to do wildland stuff. You gotta do yeah the dirty work in a different way, right? In a different light. More of a rural wilderness style. And yes, there's cities and buildings involved and and crazy highway. But even look at the roadway system, right? You go outside of this area, when we got a wreck in this area, it's it's crazy, short, it's technical, but you know, the roads are tighter, they're older. You're not gonna get the stuff that you see like anywhere else outside of Tri State. You know, more over the road trucks and even when I was out there they had the it happens and now we see on the news like once a year somebody's popping up with it. You know, you have a semi hanging off of a bridge that's like on fire making it. Yeah, that's like the new that's like the new thing the semi at the bridge. It's so, you know, when I was out there they had one of those by the air by Denver airport and it was like, you know, it was a sight to see like whoa. You know, so culturally it was cool. But but even, you know, I know I'm gonna jump future right into last year's experience, but this is all makes sense. When I was in Poland, those guys and their USAR and their technical stuff are on a whole different level, right? You go to the firehouse, it's kinda like they're paid, they're career guys, but they also have volleys. But in Warsaw, you know, they have their rigs, their heavy rescues, all that stuff that you see all over on the on all the buff channels. But then in the back, they got, you know, their canine lives in the firehouse and just the handlers get switched off and the dog stays there. And they train the dog every day. So I'm like, never heard of that in the US. I always heard that the dog keeps the hand you the handlers with the with the pup and that's it. Not that they rotate. So ⁓ yeah it's just, you know It was it was a fun experience being out there. It was cool and I'm glad I had it 'cause now coming back here, I feel that we've brought it into both the career and volunteer applications and you know, that's kinda where the writing and and training start to yeah to roll from there. And so, you know, you came back from there and you got involved with OEM up in New York. What did that work have you doing? So ⁓ yeah, so came back from from Colorado, did my thing, finished school here in Mawas, step kept volunteering in the area and then You know, life, right? You y you either gotta get off the pot or keep hustling or you gotta do something. So, you know, I had another deal, started working with my ⁓ family business doing more and more construction and and all that kind of stuff. And I like, I don't know, this is at that point, you know, it's that life. You're like, What am I doing? You hit that like low twenties, you're like, I know I could live so I ended up going for my my ⁓ my master's online through Arizona State. Didn't get to go there, just walked graduation, didn't didn't live out. Did you still party though? I did have a couple nights at graduation that were fun and it was funny. Total side note. But it was great. One of the kids that was like basically my roommate at Colorado ended up going to Arizona State. So when when I when I grab when we both graduated, we were back at ASU. But ⁓ but anyway, came back to do the internship 'cause part of the master's program in in homeland security and emergency management was get an internship. So at the time I was already ⁓ dating my my wife and ⁓ she had a hook in New York City and somebody knew somebody. So I ended up going to OEM. And as I've learned at the time, OEM runs Task Force One for New York, right? Yeah, it's NYPD F D NY, but they are the the brainchild agency, host agency. So, you know, worked within the training division for the summer a month, a couple months, you know, I think it was four months really. And ⁓ you know, typical clerical work, but I got, you know, after a month of hustling, they're like, this kid is, what are you doing here, man? You're too blue collar, you're too hands on to be sitting behind a desk. So I spoke to my ⁓ my ⁓ supervisor, the the the commissioner of the trainings branch or whatever. And he was like, you're more of like a task force fireman. I'm like, yeah. So From there, the internship shifted a little bit, got involved at going to the warehouse a couple times. That's awesome. ⁓ getting involved with, you know, I didn't do much, but it was just enough to get exposed. Seeing that, you know, of course at the warehouse. They have a whole testing prop for the fireside and being involved in EOC. So it was like to see the piles and the equipment, I was like, all right, now I started to link up like what I thought was training, what I saw at West, what you watch in the buff videos, what you know, the FEMA thing is starting to do, plus the The amount of studying you did, I mean, yeah, let's I know it's a degree and people can say whatever they want with academics, but like the amount of research that went into that piece of paper put every like glued all those opportunities and I and ⁓ experiences together. So that's where I was like, this is it. Like and then as I'm applying for jobs, because for OEM you could do ⁓ civili there's a couple of positions for for like ⁓ for their team. I kept applying, kept applying, kept applying. My notice came for ⁓ for the fire department and ⁓ it was that FDY EMS. couple other police jobs and I like, I'm gonna be a fireman first. Maybe I'll get to do this stuff. And lo and behold, here we are today. So yeah. No it was a good time. But that gave you the insight and sort of, you know, it it it cemented where you wanted to be, right? Sure. You know, you saw that in action. So I you know, what I thought was cool when we first connected, obviously when you spoke at USAR, but when we we started to connect here is we started talking about rescue capability and building teams and you brought the volley side into it. And I thought that was really important because You know, every I think everyone focuses on the the big companies, the big cities and and building these flashy programs. But, you know, the the aspect that you brought and brought to me was, you know, building that on the volunteer side. I think that's just as important because these guys are doing it with without the budgets, without the flash. And I and I I I think there is a group of people out there that do need to hear, hey, this is possible and you know, you guys have done it. But a lot of departments, you know, they feel like rescue is unattainable if they don't have those big budgets. You know, What do you say to that? So listen, it's all about perspective. ⁓ like I said, where I've started on that rescue squad years later, ⁓ the towns shut them down. They were their own private entity, not borough bills. So whatever. So the town that I'm chief now lost a a very good opportunity there. So years later I come back and in both where I was pre where I was a chief previously, and even at work, right? We're not the rescue squad, right? By us at work, we have Patterson. For those of you that watch the live rescue, those are those dudes. They're their our UWASI company that does that stuff that's responsible for that. But even in the volleys where I kinda ran with it and I had the buy in was, you know, UASI does respond up into my neck of the woods, but with traffic, delays, being in the tri state area, yeah, on overnight they could be there in twenty minutes, but on your standard day, it's gonna be an hour. I might get a chief swiftly because a car, you know, a Tahoe is easier to get here than a full size rescue or whatever the cavalry's bringing. So when I went back at the guys, when I got reinvolved, you know, I started back out when I came back to South River as a training officer, went up to the rank, made it the chief quick. It was just a buy in, you know. It was guys, what do you guys want to do? Well, we we do a lot of basic training, but all right, no problem. So why don't we start doing the training? So the way we built out our model is we kinda did it backwards where at first the first two years guys were very confused. They're like, Why are we doing, you know, three straight days, four straight days, five straight days as volunteers. And I'm talking twenty guys did, you know, rope tech, confined tech. That's huge. Like now we got the swift water tech done, trench text done, you know, the collapse series is a whole nother and but It wasn't just, you know, the high school kids and the college kids doing it. I got guys that are in their fifties that committed to those days. So, right, we started I did it the backwards model where it was get the training first, right? 'Cause for better or for worse, if you really look at the numbers overall, the training is going to be sometimes the cheaper end of things, right? Where, you know, I'm not I can't go buy a five hundred thousand dollar paratech trailer or rig right away. But in my region, I know that I can get you twenty trained guys that if we pull up to your scene or you guys be have a a a catastrophe, at least we kind of know how not to get ourselves killed. And as the enforcement you know, the reinforcements and the cavalry start showing up with all the cool toys with all the struts and all the fun big money items, my guys aren't gonna be lost in the sauce. They'll be able to understand the lingo, the jargon, how to get plugged right in. And I think that's what's been very successful for our capabilities. And again, it you still takes neighboring partners to get involved. But from that, you know, it all came to be three years ago we started a a rescue weekend, right? Our own day and our own seminar. You know, where the first year was we got in four instructors that that saw what we were doing, you know, and they like, Hey, you wanna just do like two hours on on on access ropes or Stokes basket? Like basic stuff. We're not talking, you know, windshields, skyscraper, like Hey man, we're gonna put the stick up, we'll we'll drop the Stokes on it. Do you even know how to maneuver while hanging on a line, you know, around the Stokes basket? And that just, you know, opened up eyes and I think it's been working and even with our mutual aid partners, luckily being the chief, I get to, you as everywhere you get to be involved in some conversations and it was even like, Hey, who's running what? How's everybody's cash doing? 'Cause again, it may not be you're calling certain units. You're gonna be calling certain units for the equipment or the knowledge. So I think that's where we've been lucky here and it's growing. I mean, like for a volunteer town, right? There's no secret. This town only runs like two hundred to two twenty five a year. It's not a busy PG style town. But the manpower's there, you know, because guys are like, Hey, what what what class are we doing this year? You know, what happens if something happens? ⁓ there's flooding going on, you now we're getting a high water vehicle again. They're like, ⁓ it's just this is what we talk about, you know. And then traveling, going down the sea, right for, you know, joint drills. It's you just gotta put yourself out there and I think it works. But, you know, you gotta have buy in. And sometimes the hardest thing is getting that ball rolling. I and I I you know, we we talk about buy in all the time and people always ask me, How do you how do you get the buy in? I I feel like you just have to start. You just gotta go. Yeah. Sit around wasting time two years. ⁓ we don't have the money. We don't have this. All right. Well, one guy goes and does something on his own. Yeah. And then that was awesome. All right. Maybe we'll fund it. Maybe I could send five guys next year. Maybe we could chop this up, you know? So in that sense, you you you talked about being the chief, and I think administrative buy in is huge. Obviously, you're in a great position where you can affect that. But how do you let me tackle that? ⁓ yeah, yeah. I think that on on the work side, right? At work. We're One of my retired battalions used to say we're we're a dirty, snotty four and two, right? Four engines, two trucks, and and a and a super vi ⁓ battalion chief on duty. Right. Our city is ⁓ just over three square miles. There's a a river that surrounds it like a peninsula. There's a couple of green areas. It's a it's a pretty dense environment. Half the city is urban, old school, you know. If you look at the if you think of the Bronx and Brooklyn, you know, as they film shows by us, that's where they come for 'cause it looks like the old city. And then the other side is is beautiful McMansions. You know, it is what it is. And a hundred thousand people packed into it. So even there I get it, right? What's in what's expensive? Salaries, this, everything. So how do we start giving guys something? How do we chip away at it? And the buying like again, luckily I have my administration is is drinking the Kool-Aid now involved in some ideas of that we've done. You know, we've gone from two, three years ago we bought just a simple Paratech over the road kit, right? Your standard couple struts, couple extensions, base tips. Why do we need this? Right. It's not just for the tractor trailers that we have outside the firehouse because we have Amazons everywhere and and and and ⁓ distribution blocks everywhere. But this could also be used for you know, your car through a storefront or through a bodega. You don't have to wait forty five minutes to shore it up. You could throw a s a strut there and and get the victim out on a swift grab, on a dirty grab, no problem. So we've been lucky to just chop it up. But again, all those connections, like we said in the beginning, it all they're all connected, literally. Right. So the guys that did the volley training are involved there. They know how, you know, how you know how pressing it is in the system. But that administrative getting to that level, listen, if if you're in a spot that's tough, you gotta try. You gotta try. You know, you can't give up. You have to push through because it's gonna work eventually, right? Either time goes on or people move on and but the guys behind you are gonna drink, get involved and be like, yo, this was sick. I wanna do it. You know, so now you become that guy as years go on and yeah, you can make change. Exactly. And I think the the analogy of chipping away at the block is perfect for that just because it's not You're not taking a giant bite of that. It is just it is one one piece of the puzzle at a time and it it can be time consuming. And I think that's where people sort of lose heart. ⁓ and they maybe they give up and you know, the administration passes on it and sort of passes by, but but that's the important thing. So Patience Patience and trust, man. You gotta just have patience. But what would you tell, you know, that that young firefighter who's in a department, whether it's volunteer or career and there's there is no buy and there's no culture, where do they begin? How do they how do they affect that? Do it yourself, you know. I think Find I'm gonna go in words that guys just tell I want to be a rescue guy, find a discipline you're good at that you believe in, right? So if you're on your own and you're able to do rope work, run it, you know, get really good at that, bring it out, bring it out of drill, start chipping away at it. You know, if you're a water guy, you know, get involved, do awareness, ops, tech, send your listen, there's a little bit of investment there, right? That's the other thing too, is people are like, ⁓ they gotta pay for everything. Sure. But if you're relying on somebody else to pay your way, it's not going to happen. Right. You got to invest in yourself. You got to get yourself home. You want to be smarter than the guys around you so that you don't get killed or you could call something out should something go sideways. People will see that and be like, yo, this dude took a vacation day or he didn't come to drill because he was and and you you and I both know there's plenty of not plenty, but there's a good forum of free classes and free training out there that could help you guide you into this. And then you never know what happens, right? You go to a class, like they always say, hang out, meet the instructor. Now magically, hey, come back in three weeks. We're doing a class. You could be the demo guy. It's you're here for free. We see what you're going through. Like you just gotta try and be persistent at it. And you never know where it takes you, you know? Like that's that's incredibly important. Like and I like I said, I first when I first became Captain on the Rescue, I was still in a position where like I wasn't fully confident in my skills. And I I said, Hey, I gotta I know I gotta lead from the front in this. I started going to conferences and I mean the conferences are great. But you know, it's always those after events where you're just hanging out talking to people from around the country, you're talking to instructors, like that is where you I think the learning really happens. And that's the important part is just having a beer and and talking about, you know, hey, this is what's going wrong at my department. This is what we can't do. And someone's like, Well, hey, this is how we affected that. And that's, you know, that builds that builds trust in yourself. And you go back and you have that that motivation. When departments are trying to build out tech rescue capability, what do you think the biggest downfall is early on? Or what do you think they're getting wrong? I mean, I'm gonna say the buy-in and the and and the manpower, right? Because you can get two, three guys that love this stuff, but nobody's gonna call you, right? Or, you know, you're the cool kid on the block. Everybody always wants to call you 'cause you're the cool town and you show up and you totally fail on your face and now your camarader, you your your credibility is thrown out the window. So I like I said, that you gotta have the conversation with the folks. I know like when we started this, let's call it a program. When we started doing all this fun stuff, I told the guys straight up, I go, Guys, I'm here for you know, at a minimum as the chief or a administrative helper or position or training officer, whatever, at least five to seven. So what you're gonna get out of me is this is a this year we're gonna try to do this, X, Y, and Z. And I think not holding things behind the doors and kind of just being blunt. There were plenty of there was a handful of guys that are like, what are you smoking? We you know, we barely do this and we ha we don't have enough drill time. And now we're at the point where guys are like, hey, can we have an off night to just do this? Can we have a squad night? Can we have a special ops night? Can we can we mix this in on our own time? I go, just do whatever you want, guys. You know, I think Communication is, you know, we old joke about our fire service life, you know, anything. It's always communication. But for real, I think you gotta have some sort of framework, even if it's ⁓ on paper saying, I want to start this and how, just go to the group and say, Hey guys, how are we gonna do this? That how you you might get an old timer that will just be like, I'm not at all getting involved, but I'll sit in the corner and guide you or monitor, throw ideas back at you that you said to to see if it made sense, you know? Well, I was gonna say, so that's a good point. How do you and ⁓ on your side even personally, how do you get through to those those firefighters that don't want to be a part of the program or don't want to be a part of building that capability out. What's your thoughts? Give them opportunities. So it's like finding your strengths, right? It's like the same thing on a line where you're like, ⁓ that dude wants to drive, drive, drive. Hey man, if we get a job, just watch the new guy stay outside. You're not a bad guy. Just we'll take your value somewhere else. And you you got to know your people. ⁓ and that's tough too, because if you're like the guy that joins the department, it's like, hey, let's start a rescue squad or a special ops team. It's not going to happen. But as you maneuver leadership, as you maneuver the guys, you kind of figure out who's who. You know, we had a kid that was a high school swimmer, you know, grew up with the kid in in a bunch of departments. You've known him now for over ten years. And he was kind of a ball breaker about this whole thing. It's like, ⁓ why why? Why? I'm like, you know, let's get there. Then it was, Hey, you wanna go to Swiftwater? What? You wanna go to ops? Why? You swam in high school, dude. You swam in college. All right, I'll try it. Then it's like, that was a great class. All right, dude. Hey, tech's open. Do you wanna go to tech? Just trust me. All right. Hey, you wanna go on a boat? Okay. This is and now that guy's like, Hey, can I go? You know, so people skills are valuable. And I I always tell this to everybody I you know I work with and bounce ideas off of, you know, anybody. It doesn't have to be an officer, just anybody. You have to know your people and like the the l they always say, right, the lonious spot is at the top, but the guy at the top or the girl at the top has to ha be aware of a million things, you know. So even on like a mini deployment, hey, we're gonna go stage somewhere for floodwaters. I'm not gonna put two guys that are buttonheads together. Yeah. You gotta know those little details. Yeah, you got exactly I knowing your people, I think you gotta yeah, know your people. But I think that's the best way to go. You just gotta just talk. Yeah. No, I think that that that solves ninety percent of problems. ⁓ and you talked about you talked about flooding and obviously, you know, your department built a lot around this flooding. You know, how did it shape your department's rescue priorities? Sure. So for the for the vol hit with the volleys first. You know, for years we always had our we have like a s a river. I call it more of a canal, knowing rivers ⁓ that goes to the center of town, splits it. Whenever we get a solid rainstorm or like a mini ⁓ you know, we call them micro bursts around here, a little rain weather development. We flood out, nobody gets to the firehouse, we gotta come in from you extra two miles away to loop around. So even that was funny because when I came back, I was like, What are our capabilities? ⁓ we have throwbags. Perfect. I'm like, that's that's a start, but what are you gonna do? You've had a history. You know, years, decades ago, they had a police officer that got swept away and got carried maybe a mile downstream and got lucky that it got kind of pinned up somewhere else and they were able to rescue the guy decades ago. Right. So when we rebuilt it now, now it's like a, you know, maybe we should be more on the defensive side and, you know, I always say it's like it it's like football, right? You're you're aggressively aggressively defensive but offensive, you know how it is. So even with that stuff. So even at work, it was one of those like you know, work, if you Google Passaic, the first it's not fires that comes up, it's floodings and fatalities, unfortunately. And ⁓ in my time we had like three, but really two big weather events that were, you know, record breaking for us, right? We had a miracle on the in in the city where a girl got pulled through a culvert, survived, and then month later we had a very similar situation where where two kids unfortunately passed away. But That was just at one spot, not at two other spots in the city. So I think that's where we chipped away and we are chipping away with it at work, is that hey, we don't have to be the rescue one, the rescue two, like this badass, you know, mustache diet cokes and you know Marlboro. There's nothing wrong with Diet Cokes. I mean, you know Marlboro's and pizza guys, like, you know, we're not like the bad like we're good firemen, but maybe we should start to pick up the water stuff because, you know, they always say, right, what's the best thing about the fire service? We're not, you know, proactive or reactive. Right. Take those reactive moments and really bloom on them. Hustle up. And that's what we've done. The guys went from zero to hero in three years now, you know, got into the water, ops with a couple tacks, ice time. They're doing ice stuff. You know, we're in the water now, third party training on the boats. You know, now we brought back a V hole, a little you know, some guys will call it the mini patrol boat, the little, you know, I think it's like a sixteen or eighteen footer with the with the prop on it. And listen, our river's tidal. So that's where people get crazy where it's like, ⁓ you're just on this S bend. I go, Yeah, but it's still tidal. So we go from, you know, a six foot swell in four hours, man, sometimes where guys just now you know this is where this, you know, this craft can go, where the flat bottom can go, that the jet drive can go. That's important. Just just being good at that, you know, for me is a huge success where I know I know in my heart that I'm never gonna have a heavy duty rescue truck staffed with a company. But I do know that Do you need that? I would love to see that. But I know it's not gonna happen. Everyone loves to see that. But I mean you can still build that capability. Correct. We could build that out amongst the six companies where it kinda takes on that west coast of that south country style where it's not just the toolboxes here, it's the guys are sharp. You know, I'd rather have guys, you know, you know, Bru what, Bruceini, or excuse me, the guy from Chicago, the chief totally blanking on the name, but he always had that, you know, that that quote on I you know, I don't need six guys, I need six doctors and and surgeons. Yeah, the rocket scientists you know, I need that immediately. I don't need six guys walking around in T shirts. And I feel that's the same way here is and that's kind of where I'm starting to lean with the you know, the second two thirds, second half of my career is, you know, all right, it'd be cool to have a rescue, but it's everybody can swim and everybody can deploy the boat and everybody knows how to read water, we're doing we're doing strides here. We're making huge progress. So and it's the same goes for the volleys, you know, if you could pull that off, it's a win. Be be competent and confident in what you do. And no, I I mean, I think you can have a rescue truck full of every tool. And we had that on our side and that was where I sort of got my Yeah, might come might come up and saw on the rescue side as yeah, we had this truck, we had all the tools, but the capability wasn't there. So I mean there's a trade-off somewhere. You can have one but not have the other. And sure. To have the people with the skills, I think is vastly more important. Yeah. You know, what is you you see a lot of flooding down there. What are some overlooked realities of urban flooding response or response to urban flooding? I'll be honest. I think everybody not er well, yeah, everybody's pretty much unprepared for it. Right. 'Cause a lot of folks will go take like, you know, like like the New York ⁓ facility, the facilities out in ⁓ The Carolinas, both of them, right? They have two now in North Carolina. Alabama's opening up one soon. And I'm sure there's a handful more out on the West Coast. Teaks has one. Those flood towns, you know, those movie sets are vital. But again, how do you get there? And I think a lot of folks and you know, again, I'm not no maritime excuse. I'm not no not a big maritime guy. You know, there's a lot of guys that are way better than me at this stuff. But just through the experiences and and surviving some things, you know, I feel that a lot of excuses, not excuses, but a lot of mindsets are built upon You go take a Swift Water Tech class, you do your three, four days, everybody swims through the same little ravine and the little gap and the little hill on a chute and everybody gets their certificate and now I'm a Swift Water Tech and I'm the guy for my department. And I feel the issue there is like when you do get a legitimate flood in a suburban or urban town that doesn't involve a, you know, a a natural or man made riverbed or whatever, a creek, you know, people lose their bearings and just go out the window saying, ⁓ it's white, you know, white water, it's a problem, it's moving fast. Like Again, in our case, unfortunately, what happened was when the car got stuck on the culvert, right? Your basic main drainage. I think the thing the pipe's like an eight by twelve opening where everything just in one section of the town goes, like, ⁓ it's just flooded out. I guys, there's a culvert under that. No, no, don't worry about it. We'll go check it out. I'm like, I I'm just a fireman, but listen to me for once. And you know, it worked out in our in the fireman's benefit. But that's where you gotta start bridging the gap. And like, you know, like we say with a academics and the fire service, there's guys that can study and take every class and but you gotta know how to apply it. So I think that's one of the pitfalls in in urban water that folks kinda don't look at. And again, you have to know your map. You have to be a realist about it. You know, am I gonna send guys to marina classes and send them to like Hawaii to do crazy stuff to operate in my town? Sure. If we have the funding and it's a magical grant send me too. Right. Send me to go go have fun. But the reality of it is like maybe you'll pull learn an ounce of something there, but you're not gonna do those operations where we are. Right, especially where we flood. I in the work scenario, if you're not by the riverbank, I mean during Hurricane Ida, the river met the highway. And that's one day I'll go I'll go measure the grade. I'm sure there's a very smart side. I remember the picture from your picture for your presentation. It was wild. It's bad. You know, and like you go there a couple days later, like and you know, myself and the other captain will go there once in a while just to be like, you know, the water rose like sixteen feet from street level. And that's our and our street is already thirty feet from the str from the river. So, you know, Mother Nature can do some crazy stuff. You just gotta be You gotta know how to apply everything. Yeah. So Yeah. And you so you you know, you you talk about the the flooding and you use the term water park operationally, how d as a department, how do you handle that when it comes in? Like obviously you dealt with all this stuff. Like, have you learned from those past? Like are you ready to take on the next event? Are you Yeah, I think I think ⁓ personally I have and I think both the volunteers and the career world have. It's good and bad, right? 'Cause you know, now we have policies. There was always some sort of basic SOG or P on it, like ⁓ Go put your vest and helmet on and put your booties on and stay fifteen feet away from the water. But I think now with the capabilities and knowing your guys and knowing who's trained, knowing who loves because again, you'll get 20 guys that have the class and went through it, but five of them are always going to be your go-to swimmers. You know, you go back to the whole reach throw go helo fun thing. Like, I'll be honest, I'm more of a go guy just because I know I can execute the operation a lot better than waiting. Okay, hey guys, we're gonna start throwing alliance. One goes, two goes, three goes, they're all missing. I could I could have gotten the guy, you know, twenty feet up. upriver before it came down. But volley wise, I think we're doing good because again, now we have buy-in. We know we set up, you know, ⁓ pre-plans on where the rig's gonna go, who's going down. Even now at work, we're in the process of redeveloping the plan where we like I said, we only have six companies on duty on a on a good day, and two of those companies have to close down to go get the boats to launch them at different points. So even that's a win because now a confirmed or a witness drowning or a c you know fall body in the water is now a basically a second alarm ⁓ response where all of our companies go in the water and now we know that the east side boat is going through the high high drop, the west side boat's going to the low drop. We can control the river from both angles. You know, the other companies are going to be spotters on the river. Maybe, you know, the truck goes down as a downstream s safety setup. It works. But again, practicing is good until what happens on the streets. Right. Now you have three blocks closed off. The, you know, the mains are going. So I think we're definitely light years ahead of where we were a couple of years ago. But you can always get better. You know, you can always get better. So Of course. ⁓ switching it to back to the volley side, you know, a lot of volunteer departments struggle with training, retention. How do you how do you keep that momentum alive? Just in general, not even on the tech rescue side. I dude, it's it's been a medical mystery. That's the weird s it's just been miracle. Honestly. But I think it like it does come down to credibility and leadership of everybody involved, you know, 'cause again, we all know we all have characters in our firehouses or our squads or whatever you're part of. And I think the toughest part is just maintaining that, right? Like telling people, hey, that guy could be a complete, you know, not nice dude, but he's phenomenal at the gears or at at winches or something. So guess what? That's all he's responsible for. So let him run. Don't don't shun the guy away. You know, and I think keeping that open door, you know, you can hear all your tech te techni excuse me. All your typical civil service or personnel answers are out there. They work. You just gotta know how to execute it and you gotta be a people person. And I think as you move up the leadership, if you're the training officer, even if you're the guy in class or just the the guy or girl at drill, just have an open mind because you know, there's there's different models. Like we're very fortunate by us where we have a a a slight stipend that helps monthly, plus the drills are kind of fun. But before we got to our level now, it was, you know, we chopped it up. It was, you know, a meeting night one night, an engine call, you know, an engine drill, a truck. drill and a rescue drill kind of we chopped it up to try to keep guys involved. But what do we see there? ⁓ I'm only coming out in the last Tuesday. Why? Because I just wanted to rescue shit. Okay, cool. But you still have to do fireman stuff here, you know? Yeah. That's the whole job. That's the it's still says fire department on it. But again, it's just it's you got to chip away at it and keep it all it comes down to communication. And we do that here too is at the beginning of the year and quarterly we'll have like a pow wow. Like a yeah something at on the career side we kind of have that every day. Okay guys, this is what we're doing, blah blah blah. And the volleys we kind of started doing that at our meeting is like, Hey guys, is everybody cool? What's going on? This is the direction for this month or next month. There's going to be changes. We know that's going to happen. But if you're not going to be here, just be honest. Tell us you're not going to be here and we're not going to wait for you. And that's gone that's gone light years ahead too to help out situations of just stress, right? Because you'll have officers and senior guys that are like, Well, if I'm here for forty eight years and this kid doesn't want to show up, but he gets all the gear, all right. I totally understand it. You know, it's it's a constant dance. Everybody's going through it. You're go you know, it's that's its own that's its own animal. It is. And I think that goes back to the communication part and just keeping your thumb on, you know, the vibe of the ⁓ the vibe of the department and in in knowing your people. ⁓ and we talking about we we talked about the big tough rescue guys ⁓ and the pride that goes into that. Do you think that pride on the volley the volley side or the buy or not even the buy in, but the the ownership means almost more? I think so. I think that's where I found ourselves in a unique crossroad now where, you know, we're at a point now where guys are like, All right, we went through all the training, when's the equipment coming in? Now you want me to do an 80 hour collapse class in the next two years. What are you crazy? Like we still haven't been called to a tech job or whatever. I go, yeah, you're absolutely right. But you also have four more certificates that we're still training on and keeping up the par on. It's like, ⁓ I think of that. I go, right. These skills that we're doing, and this might go back to the last question as well, is these skills that we've done in the excuse me, the way we built out the class organization, like you're gonna do a lot of this stuff on the fire ground. Right. So it's not just, ⁓ I wasted four days. It was, ⁓ you did rope work. Well, now you're doing a basic Stokes basket lower and you're like, ⁓ wait, I know a couple, you know, nuggets that could help us. It's not a tech job. You know, some people it's just a basic remove the injured worker off the roof and slide him down the rails or something or the rugs or something. But no, there's a ropes on there. Right. That's it. Make it different. Don't get crazy. So I think that's been a home run with it. You know, the pride thing, I I'm very big on that. Like I don't come around like, hey, I'm a New York Yankee or something, but I tell the guys like and I s I do see it with the folks, even going last night to this fire, like, you know, we went to the fire, we went to set up and They're like, hey, can you please flow? We want you to set this in the house was three quarters of the way burnt through, unfortunately. So we had just a garage to really worry about. But it was like, hey, stick the roof. I go, All right, well, if we stick it our way, we're gonna get up there, we're gonna knock out a gable vent or whatever, make our own gable vent, we'll put the ladder pipe through it. Sure. And I was like, What are you guys doing on the roof? I go, That's how we do things. That's how our culture and our department and our company has developed. So I think on the same side of rescue stuff, whenever there's a water job around here, that's I actually love seeing this now, like. Whenever something does happen within the three counties in the state we're on, I'll get a text from three guys like, Hey, dude, are we going? Do have a shot? Did you see this yet? Listen, I know we're not going, but that drive, that like that that that burst they got, they're like, ⁓ I'm like, hey, just watch it, research it. Like, bring it back next drill. Bring it. Put it in the chat. Learn. Tell the guys what's going on. Keep them aware. I think, you know, that's got some positive to it. And I think that that speaks to like that's exactly why I started this podcast. Is like there's people out there that you know, they might go their whole career and not be part of that big tech rescue, but like the ability to watch others go through it here, their story is like there is something of value to that and and to sort of sustain you in your journey as you keep trying to take all these classes, keep training, trying to get better. You you just mentioned the the surrounding communities. How important do you think regional collaboration is with in tech rescue? Hundred percent. Hundred percent you need to have it. I know like e ⁓ keeping it simple, right? Interoper interoperability. And I'm not gonna go into radio discussion, but just struts, right? So if you have, you know, if you wanna go junkyard dog versus a paratech versus a rescue jack versus a whoever, the new stuff's coming out now. I know at the end of the day they're all interchangeable somehow. But, you know, having those kind that's what was crazy in the last couple of years was having those conversations where guys would go to a meeting and be I don't like this guy, I don't like that guy, like, what kind of struts do you guys run? Like, what do you mean? I go, I'm be honest. If I have some create because for years this strip of seventeen from from the Paramus border to New York up in the Mawa was known as a like a like a you know they always said it was one of the deadliest strips, you know, for year for decades. You know, like if we need help, I don't need the manpower, I need your equipment. I need to strut things and just set you know stabilize things. So if I call you though and don't have a certain brand, do you know how to jump in here to see what I'm capturing, what I'm doing, how to just learn the lingo? And I think that's where we've been pretty lucky so far. You know, again, it helps kind of knowing everybody around you and growing up with everybody and being a member of half the departments. But, you know, I think that was the biggest thing that's been positive. And now we're learning that as well at work though, on the water rescue side, where, you know, on yes, we know that that boats and crafts and and and training costs money. So I feel like we're becoming the the front runner of you know, water rescue. I'm not saying swift water rescue, but river rescue. Let's let's stick with that. Where folks up and down from the falls down to us are like, hey, would you be willing to come out if we have anybody? And I get it, it's a it's a strain on on the system and and the your own town, but you know, you train to that capability. You have the equipment, right? The same stuff that just I just talked about in the volleys. The guys just put all these extra days in to get these classes and you you know, now they get to go on the boat and downstream into another county or town to be like Yeah, there's a payoff in that correct. So, you know, we kept talking about communication and buy in. And I think at the end the day, when you have everybody around you going, All right, you guys are crazy and you still suck at something, but you got something going, all right, I'll take that. That's a win, you know? Hundreds you gotta you gotta those those small wins have to pay out. And I think I think that's important. And just and also I think in the on the building side, you know, working in collaboration with other parties in the region helps build your own capability. I mean and that's what was great about our rescue weekend when I when we run this thing. You know, normally it's in May. This year it'll be in October. That's what's awesome about it, 'cause it was it's the the initial cont was just for the Soda River guys to have a standalone guys like almost like an in-service. Guys, whatever we want to go over, go over, we'll bring in some guys to help us lead things so we don't have to lead it. I can be on an evolution. And now it turned into, you know, the first year was because we're part of two mutual aid groups, which made it a little tougher on on ⁓ on student count. But ⁓ you know, it was like, Hey, let's invite one extra person from every town of all the extra twenty two towns to just show up. So now you have R thirty to forty plus those twenty two. And then one of th one thing I do when I set it up is I chop up the groups. Yeah, I'm You it's old school. Everyone everyone hates that. Yeah, it's like pick up a stick in hockey when you're on the pond and it was the same here. I'd be like, All right, you're working with this guy, with this guy, with this guy. And they're like, What what do you mean? I go, Well, it's for some crazy catastrophic reason. I'm on the parkway in pyramids with my rescue. I want to know your face. I don't need to know you. I don't need to know your equipment. I used to be like, Hey, that's the dude from that weekend. Yeah. All right, come on. What you know, I saw you know how to do something. So I think, you know, you have to have that that Conver and it could be as simple as you go to a meeting and just say, hey dudes, we're doing this kind of stuff. If anybody's interested, shoot me a text. Come visit us on our drill night. ⁓ we don't have to make this a next level thing, but you never know. And you'll be surprised how many people might be like, What are you guys doing? Can I come check it? You know, it's gonna happen. Somebody will be interested. Absolutely. ⁓ that that's important. ⁓ we'll switch gears here. Let's talk flow invent. Tell me about that. Where'd that come from? You know, where did where's that at? The the animal of flow invent. So yeah, going back to the going back to the volunteer high school days and I still volunteer obviously, but ⁓ you know, that was just a ⁓ a bitching fest of us younger kids that were sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, not understanding the fire service, creating a Facebook page to literally vent about ideas and and post the drills we were doing. But like we just mentioned, it started out as just like a a s ⁓ bitch fest and then it turned into, Hey, my buddy's from here, you know, other guys started to see we weren't that crazy. Hey, can these guys come drill with us? You know, can we start a Pro B drill? Can we do a junior drill? And it all kind of built from there. Then we went to c you know, I went to college. It kind of had a year of of not much. Cause again, that was the start of social media. That was start of of WordPress. And I the website, I left it ancient original, 'cause I don't I don't know. I know if I'm too lazy to blow up a website and make it the next level or just nostalgia of seeing like how bad. Yeah. How bad it started. Yeah. But you know, there's a bunch of us involved. Like I always say in the beginning it was Pete and I, Pete's down in Maryland. And then ⁓ you know, Mikey, Mike, Chad, Matt jumped in. You know, if you listen to any of the older episodes, we do have a bunch in the queue. It's just life right now with all of us. You know, Mike Mikey's the boastress Italian New York voice that loves to rip me apart. Mikey's the you know, it's great, it works. But the podcast has been fun. And again, that just opened up the opportunities though to everything else from the reading, the writing, you know, editing textbooks. You know, if you really don't like me, open up some of your textbooks and you might see my name on the inside of ⁓ Right. I never thought I'd be doing that, right? I was a kid that was failing high school English and then You look at me now. And look at me. Now I could put a couple words together. But again, to go to different stages. Like for me, you know, yes, FDIC, Firehouse Expo. Now these are big conferences, but for me personally, like SUSAR is my is my jam. Right? Because especially I'll j I'll just jump back to what you know what you said with the ⁓ you know, how f this was all based off a flow event, these little complaints, these little bitch fests, these these podcasts, these ideas, these conversations. You know, like again, I wasn't gonna do anything because I I feel I'm not anybody to discuss water rescue, but after those kind of Let's call them legit rescue and knee or miss events. You know, like I didn't like you know, I know ⁓ a couple of our buddies were in the class, you know, in the sitting in the back, and then they're like, Hey, do you know do you know who was in your class in the front row? I'm like, I saw a lot of task force one Texas shirts and A and ⁓ shirts, and the guy's like, Dude, that's Skippy. I'm like, Yeah. He's like look him up. He goes, Look him up. I'm like, and he goes, He you didn't do too bad. I was like, Is that a good thing? Goes, You didn't get destroyed, so you pass today. I'm like, So, you know. Training and teaching around the area's been fun. And that's one thing with New Jersey is there's a lot of good, credible brands and and businesses up in this neck of the woods. But, you know, everybody can have a piece of the pie. I'm not looking to to teach the world. I just like to teach, you know, I love teaching it for people. Heck, I've taught for I have taught and still teach for a handful of of companies that are, you know, around here. So I just I just love this stuff, man. I just, you know, the more and more you learn about it, the more you involve. Like that's why I started writing about search, because, you know, It's where like again, like you, like in in college, I went for film studies to college. You know, I was doing film growing up and I like one of them artsy guys that was like, I love movies, I love cinematography. Well, guess what? The search world allows you to be a bulldog blue collar guy and a nerd that works cameras and audio equipment. So why wouldn't you want to put the both worlds together? Of course. You know, if you're that nerdy dude that's good on the lens, knows how to find stuff, knows technology, but also wants to get, you know, beat up and dirty with the rest of you guys, you're right there. Yeah, great so That's where I break chops like, well, you you gotta apply for one. I go, I'm in for that and I'm not changing my subject. I'm good at what I do. Yeah. Just give me opportunity. You know? So Flow Event's been fun. It's you know, again, total at all conferences and that's where I get funny because like when you go to teach somewhere, it's always like, Is it raw polluts? Is it flow and event? Is I go, dude, and I always say that at every class when I teach, and you know, I should just post on the gram sometimes, like, you know, for me the way I look at flow event is yes, it's it's a name. There's a flag and stickers and s and hats, but it wasn't really like a brand brand per se like a Nike or or a Toyota. It's and I don't want to call it like a movement, but it's more of like a to me, it might sound cheesy as heck, but it's more of like a cultural thing, right? Like I always say anybody that's been a part of it has ripped us apart, has supported it, has, you know, thrown a comment, hey, this was cool or was it cool? Like you're part of it. You know, you're part of that that that growth, that idea, that concept, you know, it's like conceptual thing flow invent where, you know, it's it's it's opened up the animal for a lot of things going forward. Well mentioned, you it started out as yeah, as a bitch fest and and whatnot. And that that has its own, you know, its own rights. And there's there can be a lot of bitch fests on social media. How do you harness how do you harness that for the good? Or like where's the line? Where's the line? I know. And in the beginning it was funny because like again, fortunately many of us, again, maybe we were just a little bit stronger minded and not crazy, but there were definitely times where, you know, you would post something, a war would break out and this guy says this and that guy says that. Which don't get me wrong, the first couple years I'd be watching I'm like, What are we doing? Like and it wouldn't it wouldn't even be us like you and I talking over a photo or a or an image or or a video. It was completely people from left field destroying one another, like some kid in a basement destroying the FB and Y or vice versa. Yeah, ⁓ yeah. So but then again, at that point though, like I saw a lot of that and people were you know, everybody would scrub their pages and hide something or delete something. I let it go. And I was like, Let them talk it out because you know, we've been fortunate. Yeah, but then again, the camarad not the camaraderie, but the credibility, like now, somebody's gonna definitely start a war on one of these next coming posts. But for the last couple of years it's been pretty professional, right? Like like the ⁓ the guys that complain weeded themselves out. They got weeded out by the guys were that were actually having good discussions on these posts and these conversations are like, Hey, can we try this? Why'd you do that? In the beginning it like you like everywhere. ⁓ why'd this guy take every window? Blah, blah, blah. And now folks would be like, We did that because of X, Y, and Z. Or here's my phone number, have the conversation. That's the best thing, right? Somebody's like, F U man. You're like, can ya here's my number, call me. I actually want to discuss it to learn from your scenario. Imagine that. You know? Imagine. Yeah. You know, it goes. It goes so it goes. Going back to tech rescue is I mean, what do you think the mind the the ⁓ people misunderstand about it the most about tech rescue? I think I think the most misunderstood thing is that that it is like a cult, right? Like a culture cult, you know. Yes, you just gotta know your region, what you wanna do, and it will find your niche will find your way. You know what I mean? So for me, yes, I love I'm a huge fan of the building collapse stuff. Will I ever be involved with one? I don't know. I don't think so. But I love studying for it. I love training for it, you know. But my niche, for better or for worse, is the water, right? I'm not saying I'm listen, the guys in Texas and and everywhere else are way better than me, but for up in this region, I'm pretty good at it. I understand my my my topography, my my my backyards. But you put that together with a little bit of technology and search. Now I can do what I'm good at, right? Even as simple as, you know, going back to my internship days and the degrees and and being a chief. Like even with tech shirt tech rescue, there is a component of the command structure that isn't discussed that people don't think about. So I think like for me, my niche is get in there. It's not really a cult. You just gotta know what you wanna do and you gotta roll with it. And I do feel hundred percent that you just gotta ask questions and and You know, every fireman wants to help the fireman. I get it. You know, there's sometimes right, you know, I'd I'll text Chief Downey, just have ideas to bounce ideas with him. You know, I met him years ago when I was an intern and then I said, Why don't you put us in group chat? Put us in a group chat. Yeah, you go I sent you up. You know, but sometimes you just gotta bounce idea. My buddy Matt over the border is a New York you he's a squad guy and a task force guy from New York. Same thing, he's been helping me with with the test process and studying and ideas and articles. Like he's just a guy in the background though, 'cause he's like, dude, just do you, man. I'm just here to help out. But The culture there. It's right. It's just like a firehouse, like anything in life. I feel there's a lot of good dudes. You just gotta get involved and ask questions and you gotta be hungry. Because guys will see. If you want to be part of this, you know, as in anything, you know, doors will open. And that's I think that is just putting yourself out there. You know, that was something that I had to do, you know, obviously to get into this, whatever it is I'm doing. But it was just it was just it was like, hey, I'm gonna take that step out and and see what happens. And, you know, the That journey so far has been better than I had expected and just meeting the people that that I have met and having those conversations and it's been it's been life changing. But it just it ingrains you even more into that that culture, which is great. Training wise for tech rescue, do do you think departments overcomplicate it? Yeah, a hundred percent. I think I mean we could go down a huge rabbit hole in training, right? Why do certain companies charge an arm and a leg and like your entire mortgage and pension for a class? You know, and that's you get a sticker at the end though. You get a sticker. It's great. But now you're you know, now you're living out of a shoebox. ⁓ yeah. But I think there is a lot of overplication. And I think that's why, again, for work, right? My work access, I don't have ninety percent of what folks have for rescue. I have to bring stuff from the volleys or stuff that I bought myself to teach my guys at work. But, you know, when you chip away at it, tech rescue is pretty simple. You just have to like take it in pieces. It's like building Legos, right? Like it's fundamental skills are all there, you know, even if, you know It was funny, the one trench thing we did a couple of weeks ago, Herb came up from from Florida, NRC guys, and ⁓ we had an an L trench and like the corner dropped in. He's like, All right, this got real. You know, there's no way to set this up. We don't have to make it happen, make it work. And, you know, I think that's the biggest thing of is slowing down. You know, guys wanna do all these crazy epic maneuvers and training scenarios and when you really break it down, and that's again the article that just came out with searches, like there's nothing special about it. You just gotta be competent in it. Like when I'm on the river on the boat. you know, whether it's a flat bot and the V it don't matter what you're on. Like when you're looking at it, like what are we looking for? Break it down. You know, is it a lot is it are we searching for a person? Is it a a a body in the water? You know, was it a witness? Use your brain. Break it down, right? You don't have to get that crazy. Common sense is not so common in twenty twenty six. Yeah. You know, if you have that superpower, you're you're ahead of you're ahead of everybody. So and that's, you know, one thing that hopefully, you know, the tri state area, New Jersey, New York start to like kind of harness in is, you know, you go to New York tech conference, You go south, you go out west. Like a lot of these technical even Maryland's is, you know, a leader in this. A lot of the tech classes are state based. I'm not saying everything should be state based, but the opportunity for the fundamental skills should be somewhere there. And then as you want to progress, you go wherever you want. But, you know, that's one thing that's a little difficult in our area where again, that buy-in that we talked about a while ago is it's tough to get guys to keep stay motivated because again, from a departmental standpoint, you know, my training budget's only ten grand a year. That's a lot for some places. Yeah. You know, so where am I getting ten grand is half a class? You know, that's why we're chopping everything up or you hook up with phenomenal dudes that believe in the team, believe in the guys and you know, it goes a little further. But, you know, and then look at the Ywashi system. The funding's not there anymore that it was. FEMA's going through its battles all the time. So Eventually, you know, in the next hundred years, like, yeah, it's it's gonna change. It's not gonna be hey, you're on the team and you're getting free money to go do stuff. It's gonna be you need to find ways to become competent in these skills. What are you gonna do? Yeah, it's funny the USE side, like you know, we're a UASI in the Metro Boston region and like back in the day, like it was just a free for all of money. And you know I I I talk about that in my talk is like that's great. And you know, when that windfall comes in, but how do you prepare for the time that that money is not there? Because now you have you have no skills to to look around and and get that money. And like we ran we ran into a small problem with a search camera and that was a a homeland security fund and there was a broken pin in it. And the the company was like, hey, that's fine, send it back. I talked I was like, hey Chief, I was like, we just need to send this back to the to the company. He's like, that's not our equipment. That's homeland security equipment. Like tell them to pay for it. I'm like, it's probably fifteen dollars to send like I'll go drive it. Yeah. I literally will just buy the I I I think I had to, I forget. But it's just like that The funding and the money, it's it's great when you have it, but you have to plan for the times that you don't. Correct. And I think that's that's gonna be the hurdle. And it's currently the hurdle. We're all living through it in this area and across the country. I I think that's yeah, I think that's an ask something now. It's and I I've I feel like people have always I you know, you always hear departments crying poor, but I feel like the last year I've heard it more than ever before and it is like it's just a it's yeah, it is But nobody was aware, nobody was preparing or thinking about this. No. No, I don't know. Whatever. So let's let's g let yeah, let's go back to your, you know, put your your emergency management hat on. Sure. Where do you think departments are unprepared right now? I mean, from the volley side in this region, I mean I know everybody's crying wolf everywhere on everybody's everybody's hurting, bottom line. You know, that's my thing now is that's why we really put the ki the pressure on for our guys to get at least trained up. 'Cause I know, like we said, equipment's getting older, you know, and from the from the chief level the OEM kind of kid mindset. You know, having twenty folks that are trained to a certain level, of technician or above, but I can get a UASI truck here with two or three guys immediately. Now I could go to work, right? You know, being unprepared is is everywhere. I mean, you could say it's a manpower issue, it's the apparatus falling apart, you could say the equipment's falling apart. Everything's true. We all know we're all living through it right now. But I think from a bigger standpoint, and I feel that we in this region are a little slower to this, at least up North Jersey, you know, I think The whole Emacs system that's w operating now and and resource typing and all that is phenomenal. It's been happening on the West Coast. The center of the country and the south are doing it. I think we're getting on board with it. I just hope it's executed properly. And I think that will help pitfall that g you know, capture that gap that's there. Cause again, for when when we had our our scenarios that I guess our case studies that have gone viral in in in the water rescue history, like at one point we were calling for any and all help. But, you know, Task Force One was coming back from a pre-deployment on the East Coast and we were stuck in our own little borders and nobody was coming. So what are you gonna do? And I think for better or for worse, in my personal opinion, whatever leadership you're in, whatever rank structure you're in, you have to prepare for the what if nobody's coming. You know, because I mean that's what's gonna happen. Right. It's it's funny, it's a tagline in the at least the special ops community, like no one is coming. It's up to us. I mean, there is legitimately nobody coming sometimes. You know right. You're the special ops program. Yeah. You're the be all end all. Correct. You know, I'm gonna be ready for I need more boats. They're not coming. Figure it out. You know? And and if you can't execute the rescue and it turns into a recovery or something, justify. You know, I mean, like you have to be and that's the world I think folks I mean, we can have another podcast on like the rescue squad officer or the rescue mindset or whatever. Like you're gonna make some tough decisions, you know, like in in our scenario, it was ⁓ you know, I had a I when I had my grab, I I witnessed the kid, he was on top of a car starting to fall. I was like, I'm swimming, you know, in and Of course in rubber fire structural boots in in in in in ⁓ class Bs, but those are that's water rated. It's horrible. It was a life lesson. But you know, hypodermic needles and all that fun stuff. Take the risk. Yeah. But then you know, you got a car to your right, thirty feet that's teetering in a culvert. What are you gonna do? You know? Yeah. Just gonna make it happen. You gotta make it s things happen. I think I think ⁓ I think you're right. We could definitely have about five more podcasts. But, you know, as we close out, what keeps you personally motivated to continue building out these rescue programs? I don't know. I think it's just a ⁓ It's funny you mentioned that. Every time I drive home from work called Mikey and and and guys just event about the day and things like that. And I always think to myself, like, why am I doing this? I just found a passion for the rescue world. And again, it's not like I wanna wear the badge thing or I wanna be a, you know, one of those guys. I think for me it's just, you know, it's that next level, right? So for me in my personal world as a volunteer, I could be the chief. That's as far as I can go. Right. What what can I do? ⁓ join another town and become a chief in another town. What am I? Thanos am I starting to get rings? Like I don't wanna do that. You know, at work in a place where I where I I I've I've settled and you know, I'm a fortunate listen, I'm fortunate enough to be the the senior lieutenant on the truck, right? That's crazy to say too. Like, you know, we still have that kind of old school traditions there where it's like if you're the senior guy, you help make the decisions on the equipment and the stuff. Absolutely. And whatever should be as it should be. Which is phenomenal, but I gotta take that with a grain of salt because I know we only have four and two. I know we won't have the rescue, but I can take all this and influence it. And I see it now, right? At work, I know for some guys should be like, Are you kidding me? Eleven years in at work, you know I now see what's going on. Like there are a lot of kids and dudes and and girls on the job that are like, yo, I heard you had classes. I heard you went here. What can I go? How'd you do that? You know? Like like this that's I think that alone is, you know, being able to say that you were able to be part of the reason why somebody survives something or somebody does a grab. I think that's cr like that's where your mindset should be, right? It's not about getting the valor award. Or having every patch. It's like, hey, you know, I've been here doing this all by myself on my shift and with my rig. Now my company wants to do it. Now the shift wants to do it. Now the whole city wants to do it. I think if you could just take yourself out of the materialistic mindset of I want this and see of the bigger picture, you know, not to go on a whole like Confucius say concept conversation, but at the end of the day, I think that's what's really if I really dig down, I think that's kinda, you know, why I do this 'cause I I mean I love this, but now to see like everybody involved that's yeah. buying in like guys that barely knew their streets. Yeah. Are now like, hey, can we go on rope today? And like, well, yeah, of course. What? You know? Yeah. I think that that buy-in is way more valuable than any, you know, any award you can get. W seeing that actually come to fruition is it's it's very gratifying and knowing that you're at least you're hoping being part of that that And who knows who if that what that dude or girl become. Like they might become the big, you know, the big wig. Who knows? And if and if and if you had some influence in that, like that's That's awesome. Crazy. Yeah. If you can improve, lastly, if you can improve one thing about rescue culture nationally, what would it be? I'm gonna say something crazy because I'm not I'm not in it. I think I personally don't feel that I'm in it enough, even though I teach a bunch of stuff. I don't I don't think and and and again, going back to the last camp, like not being a big teams guy, I personally feel that I'm not credible enough. You know, that's maybe my thing. Like you don't play for the Yankees, so you can't be that guy, which I think that's a c yeah, but I think that's a common I think that's a common misconception. Sure. But I w I would say like now after traveling to Europe, being on the West Coast, guys gotta get out of their bubbles. Right. So one thing I do know, again with all the training and and knowing folks from around the country, I know the FEMA system and guys that are at that level are pretty standard and on the same sheet of music for the most part. But when it comes to folks that are not at the big teams level, I think you have to get out of your bubble and actually see what's going on. And I think that is a current pitfall because again, like two towns from us, the guys are heavy duty. They're they're fucking slaying it. Excuse my French. They know what they're doing. You come to my neighborhood, you're like, you guys are really good at what you do, but you have absolutely nothing. We didn't even know you could do this. So I think you have to get out there, you have to see the world, you have to see what's around you. Cause you might go somewhere and be like, Why did I buy this million dollar trailer when I just needed twenty grand worth of stuff and I could do everything with it in in, you know, in a certain respect. So I think bottom line is people just gotta get out of their their zones and experience thing and have conversations. Yeah, you know, social media and and conferences absolutely help, but I think that's that's that's what's happening, right? These little conferences are popping up more so now for the rescue world, right? We always saw the fools events and fire. You know, you always had the big shows, you know, and the big conferences, but now you're starting to see more rescue things pop up, you know? A lot of water rescue conferences are popping up around the world, you know, live swimming and and It's I think it's doing good. You just gotta gotta take the risk and go try. Yeah, no, that's I that's exactly it. Take the risk to better yourself. But but hey, Rob, I you know I appreciate you making the time for me, first of all. I look forward to the group chat with Chief Downey. I'll I'll expect that to come through later today. You're like, who's this guy? If I send like a a really cool meme, do you think I'd be in instantly? That's that's I'm just I'm just a Jersey kid. I'm There's only one way to find out. There's only one way to find out. So anything coming up for for Flow Invent? What's going on? I Flow Event's gonna be ⁓ I think we're gonna re rebuild the podcast. I know, you know, a lot of us had family things in life that we've slowed down there, but that's it. We're gonna keep doing what we're doing. You know, like I said, the posts are gonna keep coming out the way they're coming out, you know. And ⁓ we're just gonna stay to our we're gonna stay to our gym and not kinda keep doing what we're doing and and ride with it, you know? That's it. Keep it simple. That's that's what we need in the ⁓ the rescue community. So thank you very much. And we'll see you next time on the Rescue Lab Podcast. Thanks, brother. As we wrap up, if you found value in today's conversation And want to help us continue bringing these stories, lessons, and training opportunities to the rescue community, consider supporting our mission through the New England Rescue Collaborator Foundation. The NARC Foundation is a registered 501c3 nonprofit dedicated to advancing technical rescue training, education, and collaboration for firefighters and rescuers across New England and beyond. Every donation helps us create training opportunities, support scholarships, and invest directly back into the rescue community. You can make a tax-deductible donation through the NRC Foundation Venmo. Every contribution, large or small, help keeps this mission moving forward. If you can't do that, we ask that you give us five stars on the Rescue Lab Podcast Review, and that goes a long way. To learn more about the Foundation, upcoming training opportunities, and future episodes of the Rescue Lab, visit us online at NERescue Collaborative dot com. Until next time, stay curious, stay prepared, and remember, no one is coming. It's up to us.