SARZA FINAL : Supporting the mission. The Rescue Lab, an initiative of the New England Rescue Collaborative, is made possible through the support of engine house designs, Carry Less Supply, and Rigboard Co. Together we're working to advance technical rescue, strengthen operational readiness, and share the stories of specialized rescue teams around the world. The rescue is only part of the story. What happens before the call? How are teams built? How do they train, prepare, and perform when everything is on the line? At the Rescue Lab, we go behind the scenes with specialized rescue teams and the people who make them possible. Exploring the training, leadership, and culture behind operational readiness. From the New England Rescue Collaborative, this is the Rescue Lab. Hey everyone, welcome to the Rescue Lab Podcast. we got a great episode today from halfway around the world. We are talking about the South African search and rescue system. We're talking to the members of Sarza. We have Ivor, Leon, and Annaline. We'll stop here. We'll let you introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit more about SARSA and its mission. Leon, how about you kick us off? Thanks, Patrick. So My name is Leon Fashir. I'm the national coordinator for SARA. SARA is standing for Search and Rescue Zero or Search and Rescue South Africa. We are a voluntary organization in South Africa. South Africa has got various provinces, nine provinces. We have got representation in six of the nine provinces and we're basically setting up the seventh at the moment. Like I said, we are a voluntary organization and We've been in existence now for more than thirty five years. We we operate as volunteers assisting the emergency services, the South African police, the aeronautical res rescue coordination center that is tasked by civil aviation to look out for aircraft that goes missing. And we are the force multipliers. That's the way that we look at it. Interesting. And Ivor, sir, how about yourself? Okay. I think what Leon must give you is some background on his life 'cause it's not just about rescue and I think as volunteers, we all do other things and what's important in the rescue is what experiences we bring to the the process there. So Leon not to put you on the spot, but where did you start life and where are you now? Yeah, so I is putting you on the spot. I don't like talking about myself. I'd rather talk about the members that makes the organization a success. We'll make we'll make an exception this one time, sir. Okay, so my my I'm a independent forensic practitioner in South Africa. That is huge words for being a independent forensic investigator. So my daily job is to investigate things like white collar crime, fraud, theft, corruption and so on. My career started in the police. as a police official. and that is where I've had to deal with lots of individuals and I just had a passion from there on coming f up until now, you know, and on making a difference in other people's lives. Our motto is and hashtag so others may live. And that is where the difference comes in and that is what I what I believe I'm bringing and most of our members are bringing is to make a difference, either to get somebody home that mom can cook a meal for him or to get closer to somebody that they can con continue with their lives. I've been involved with SARSON now for now I've got a quickly twelve years that I've been around. Yeah, and it is we I see it as my hobby, but it is becoming a bigger passion on a daily basis if I could do this every day rather than to scratch in other people's problems. I would rather do this at this stage. That's fair. That's fair. Well thank you. That's a I think that's a very common trait around the world is people just want to help and they want to be involved and that's that's what makes it such a great such such a great community. Hi boy, sir. How about back to you? Well, back I'm on the spot. that's right. I started I started life in information technology, but exactly as you have your national guard in the States, I spent twenty one years in the military while working. And I think that was just part of being the outdoors and that part came so I joined SASA twenty-six years ago. So I missed the first ten years of SASA's existence but came in late and been trying to catch up ever since. And have worked through various posts within that at a regional level and then eventually at a national level with the National Council that we have. And when I stepped down as national coordinator and Leon took over, or in fact In in between us, they put me out to pasture and I thought I was gonna sit back and relax, but they gave me another title and I think everyone says, Am I retired? I don't think so 'cause I work a hundred percent for SASA and the play's lousy but but I still work. That's good. They got me where they want ya. That's perfect. Well thank you for joining us. And Adeline, spotlights on you. Now it's my turn. Yeah, Patrick. so yes, I've been a member for of SARSA now for the past six years. In terms of background, I work in compliance in the gaming industry. Very dull in comparison. And yeah, I can echo what Leon has said. And it's I would much rather be doing this every single day of my life than going to a day job. But it is where we are and thankful to be here. So thank you very much. Awesome. Well, we we look forward to to the conversation ahead. And let's just get back to SARS and where it fits in with the the broader emergency response. And the search and rescue system in South Africa, w what is its place? Well, as a volunteer organization, we get our calls from individuals or emergency departments. So we act as force multipliers to those people that it starts to do the s search and rescue work. The police and the emergency departments, the fire departments. they go and they do what they s intended to do, but we go and assist them, we make their hands strong. allowing them to focus on what they need to do. To give you an example, recently there was quite a huge search and it it was very broadly broadcasted on the news where three policemen disappeared and their vehicle was discovered in Smoorish River in Ting in the Ghao Ting province. Now the police were tasked to go and do that search because they that is what they do, they've got a specific a designated unit, it's called the Canine Search and Rescue Unit that works with dogs and the qualified divers and that's their daily work is to do search and rescue work. So they with other specialists, specialized agencies and emergency services and fire department went into this river to go and search for these policemen since the vehicle was discovered and they had to load look for evidence and and so on. So we came in to assist them in that we've are very good in providing communication. in assisting with logistics. And we've got a fabulous mobile command post trailer that we've built ourselves and developed ourselves that we deploy on calls like these. And that becomes the hub from which the from where the incident command, which would be the policeman or the fire department, whoever, can manage the call out because we've got all the facilities In that mobile command post in that trailer to assist him or her in what she needs to do. But in addition to that, as false multipliers, those members that spend their time in that river doing the search, they don't have to worry about what's happening upstream because we cover upstream safety for them. Okay. They don't have to worry about if something happens, what's going to happen downstream. We've got upstream spotters and we've got downstream safety for them. And then for each of those members that's in the water, there's a designated person walking on the bank of the water that's searching the bank for clues, but also keeping an eye on what is happening in the water for those divers and those policemen. So that if something happens, throw ropes are there and they can be extracted. It's a quick example of being a false multiplier and what we do is a false multiplier to agencies in South Africa across all the provinces where we are represented. And if there is an incident in the provinces where we're not represented, we would take members from the surrounding provinces to go there and go and do something similar. Okay. I like the I like the force multiplier concept because I think in search and rescue and tech rescue depth is critical. And if you have those people working ac working the scene and diving it, but you have the ability to fill out that team behind them l logistically, that's huge. That's that's a massive point. Yeah. I think if I can add on to that the one thing that w we didn't set out to to do, but incident command is something we've we've grown to know and to do and bring to the party. And without upsetting anybody else, we we definitely know what we're doing and we very often, by virtue of the fact that we've got the mobile command post, but it's also the knowledge that goes in it. And by using volunteers the questions will come up, how do we train them? What do we train them in? And you learn all the rescue techniques and the search techniques, but we bring a wealth of business knowledge and outside knowledge, whether it's police, military or whatever, to the party, that that all becomes a plays a huge role in that that incident command. As against a couple of young policemen who haven't necessarily been exposed at that level, you can't ask them to take that on. Yeah, and that that's I think that's a great point too, the importance of incident command and The experience that is brought to it. And how does how does it work in in your area? If say the police take over an incident, here it would be like the fire service is the incident commander. Do you integrate or do you some do you come in and take over that situation? We should probably ask Analine to answer that because we never come in and take over, it just happens naturally. And I I I think Annaleen can answer that because If you want to see a maestro in action in an incident command situation, you're looking at one with Alalin there. All right, Annaline. People just if somebody is willing to take charge, it's not about who's more important than anybody else, but if we've got the knowledge and if you've got the communication and you've got the information and you've got the technology at our fingertips and there's more and more technology comes into whether it's the mapping, keeping track, the occurrence log of what's actually happening. You know, when this all ends up in a court case one day, written word, that radio log is going to be vital. So people are quite happy, whether it's fire, whether it's police, sort of happy to say, Swazia have you got this? And they go and do what they do. South Africa, probably like the rest of Africa, is underfunded and understaffed. So The the people we're working with are only too grateful to have that support and they can get on with the the task of the search or the policing or whatever it happens to be. Yeah. Do you do you concur with that, Annaline? Yeah, absolutely. And I what I was said is spot on. like you said, it it frequently happens when we get onto a scene where they would be comfortable with w the setup running as it is, because if if they asked a question, we are in a position to be able to answer it. by the virtue of collecting that information and having an accurate record of it. So instead of having broken communication, you've got a solid system where different departments that might not be on the same radio channel or might not be speaking the same language, we have an incredible way of being able to bridge that gap. And to actually close that and be able to provide information to the relevant role players and get the right hands and the right tools at the right point of the rescue, which obviously streams line streamlines the process and makes for a successful mission at the end. Yeah, I think that's there can be so much time wasted on a mission like that just trying to get communications to work alone. So if you if you can come in and stream like that, that's that's a help for everybody, right? Yeah, correct. And with our members being volunteers and being self sufficient, you know, it's it's easy. You know what each of our members are capable of. You can put a member with a a SAPS team or a a f a fire rescue team and that individual can talk back to jock at any stage to our mobile command post. So immediately just by placing a member with the rest of them, you've got that communication opening up wide and it just works phenomenally well, within our team and then within South Africa and SASA specifically. That's a that's a Very interesting point. I I appreciate that. And now we're talking about missions to the group and and whoever, what what type of missions are you most commonly called to? Well, that depends on where you where we are located. Let's take let's let's start with the the eldest region, which is the Ghauten region, which is in center of just bit of north northeast centers of South Africa. Most of the calls there relates to people that would go in to a local mountaineer to go hiking over a weekend and and get injured. We've got a mountain search and rescue group in South Africa that's normally called out to go and and attend to those patients. But if it becomes technical or if they don't have enough manpower, they call us to go and assist. We do a lot of swift water type matters in Ghauteng as well, with all the rains that we've had. We do a lot of aircraft related incidents, aviation incidents with ARCC. And then but because we Ghauteng's got the most members, we are easy and we're comfortable to flow into the other regions. For example, yesterday we had a team from Ghauteng that went down into the eastern free state on the northern Drakensburg Mountains. five hikers were stranded in the hut due to a snowstorm. Our members went through yesterday, they worked through the night, they got to those people in the hut, attended to them, gave them food, made them warm. took them out and they're all safely at home tonight. So that is the Ghauteng unit. You know, if you go to the northern province units like Limpopo and Makumalanga, they are more like first responders where the Ghauteng members are not first responders. Because in those areas, they those those the areas where they are in, the first responder teams there is not what it's supposed to be. And specifically if it comes to technical rope work, our members got the skills. And then on the other hand, they do catch a lot of snakes in those areas, which I'm glad I'm not there because that's not my forte. if you go down to the coastal area there the people again tend to assist the police and all their type of recoveries and searches, specifically in KZN. In the Western Cape they've got Table Mountain that attracts a lot of overseas and international visitors. And they do sometimes get injured and then they've got a system in there where they go and assist the local authority to go and rescue the people from Table Mountain. So it all differs, depends on where you are. This region has got a speciality, something specific. But there's a standard set of training throughout. So if we would go to what we call a national call out, for example, we had floods in the KwaZulu Natal area a couple of years ago. Or we would go to Mozambique for floods where we've been to. And we get people from all the regions together. They still operate under one brand, under one flag, under one set of colors as a unit, despite the fact that where they are located are specializing in different other things. But the common knowledge, the common training and skill is still there to operate as a unit as a whole. That's I think that's really important in you have your regional capabilities and your regional skills. But everyone is still trained to that core level and is able to operate on a single team for that national that's huge. That's that's a massive component. Yeah, so we we always say, and and I know that Ivan and I'm very passionate about this, is that when we rock up at any call out, there's one uniform. Yeah. Everybody looks the same. Everybody acts the same. Nobody they can stand and say this guy's coming from the Western Cape and that guy's coming from Ghauten. Because we're all the same because of the culture that we have and because of the training that we present throughout our regions. Yeah. That's we'll get it we'll definitely get in the training for sure. Aniline, I I want to ask you what actually happens when a request comes in to activate SARSA and what happens from that initial call out until deployment? What's going on behind the scenes? So behind the scenes a call would usually come into our duty officers, which is a single number that's called, it rings at a couple of the duty officers' phones. they would then pick up the call, assess what the situation is, whether it is something that we can assist with. depending on what the scenario is, it might need to run through some of our official agencies like the ARCC for a aircraft accidents, excuse me, or the SAPS for for missing persons. once all of that has been resolved and we will be ac we utilize a SM SMS system and we will send out a message to all of our rescue qualified members. That message will basically be a call to check availability with the members to see who are available because it's a volunteer organisation. The members will then respond back to that SMS and advise whether they are available or not. And then in the background, the duty officers will then be busy working out where members will be congregating to respond to the call out, what logistics might be required. And then once those responses come in, we start putting together a team for the specific rescue. Messages sent out to the members to advise them who has been selected for the team and who will be the the field team leader or FTL as we refer to it for the call out. which gives them an indication that they should start getting ready to respond within the next hour. And then as soon as all our ducks are in a row, we'll then send out what we call a code red, which is our activation call, and then our members then would then respond from there to where the scene is and then commence with the rescue from that point onwards. So all in all, that process usually takes anything between 15 minutes to half an hour, where we would get the gather that information and then be at a point where we can deploy our members so that they can respond. And organizationally, how big or how many members do do you have? So currently we have three hundred and twenty members nationally, of which about half of them is what we call rescue qualified. That's the number of volunteers that we can put into the field to go and do rescue work. But then some of those that is not still not been rescue qualified, about another fifty, sixty of them can also be deployed that we know that they can be of assistance in the background. So yeah, we've we are privileged to have such a high number of members at the moment. Yeah, that's and Ivo, I did want to ask you, you talked something about background before your background before coming into SARS. It's it's largely built around volunteers, but who becomes a SARSA rescuer? it's it's that that's actually a a very good question. If if I go back 20 years, the the early days of the process, they were People who generally had come through the military service at some stage. We had conscription up until nineteen ninety. So everybody had at the the the male population had at least gone off and done something like that. And I w I just accepted at that stage that's where we would draw our members from. They were people who understood that and were regimental in their thinking. But of course, now if you look at those people They're all old. All the young ones join. And and you you say to someone, why did you join? Is it because I didn't do the military. This is my opportunity to get out into that kind of a world and work like that. But as South Africans, we by and large, and I'm generalizing now, but we do enjoy the bush, we do enjoy the outdoor life. And so that we're quite we're quite comfortable in that world. Then you find within those Who are the ones that are passionate in helping? Who the ones that will stop for an animal at the side of the road? Who will help somebody else if they trip and fall in society? And if you look at there's that if there's a common thread that runs through everybody, it's that desire to help. And whether they've they've been a a scout before, whether they've come through the military, whether they've come through the emergency services route, we've got quite a few that are still in the EMS system but but are members of us as well, just to to further and they're big it becomes a bit of a You can't use the word brotherhood anymore. What do we call it? brother sisterhood. that that we've got there. Family. A family. And that very much is you know, we always say if if any one of us got twelve people around to their house on a Sunday afternoon, you could be sure that ten of those people would be SARSA. Yeah. That's that's good. I think that that camaraderie is still a very important component to all of this. these these types of teams. And what What level of commitment is expected from a member before they're considered operational? We've we've got a grading system that you come in. So if you start as a newbie, and that's our polite name for them, then you have a six month late quite yeah. I've had to tone down from the old days. You start off when you have a six month process. So we have two intakes a year, a January intake and a and a July intake, and they work solidly. So there's lectures every Tuesday night and there's training every Saturday. So it it's quite intensive. Then on where the rest of the unit does normal unit training, you attend that as well. So you're quite busy for that first six months. And at the end of that, you'll become, assuming we're happy with what we've seen over the last six months, you become what we call a an MIT or a member in training. And you then continue. So you then you can stop the the newbie program because we start with the next intake. If you missed one or two of those lectures, you sit through them through the next batch and you move on. And then those MITs continue for however long it takes. Some people are very busy at work or with family or whatever. So they take longer to get there. The the more you put in, the more you get out. And the next step from there is you become what we call an MIT plus, which is really just a shotgun member. And Leon entered to that. So when we've got a call out, you've got a bunch of rescue qualified or as I like to call them rescue ready members going out, you can take shotguns with you. there's a a a large portion of the other fifty percent who not rescue qualified are sitting in that that gun capable thing. So w we've reached a point because you never stop learning in rescue. Every time you go on a call, it's more learning. And I always say when you think you know everything, that's a good time to retire because otherwise your next step is death. but if you're a shotgun member, reach the point where you won't hopefully kill yourself or one of us and you can come along and learn, but also be active and be be another one of the the search team that are out there or another one of the rescuers or doing things like that. So then the ongoing and around the the country, each region runs its own program. But if I look here, we run it started with one Wednesday night and one Saturday. It's now grown to three Wednesday nights. So there's rope work on one night, there's normal training on another night. So the there's three nights a month And the only reason we've restricted to three is because the committee has to meet on the other Wednesday. You don't get time off. And then the Saturday training that we go through. So the newbies will then just move from the newbie training and go into the the normal training and continue. So it's constantly going. And that training, people always say, What do I need to know to join you? And the answer is, you don't need to know anything. We will teach you that. What we can't teach you is passion. So you need to arrive with the passion. And the the desire to want to help other people. if you also arrive with a a know everything process, you know, my other words are if you if you don't like the way we're doing it, go start your own unit in the politest possible way, because we've got a system. We're always open to change and it's evolving constantly. But until you can prove that you're always better, we're gonna do it our way. And I think there's quite a bit of emphasis in cross training across the regions. So from a a national point of view, the the national training officer on myself, others, we will try and get to each region at least once in the year. And then at the end of each year, we have a a six or seven day a week training camp that we go on and you go to different regions. This year your region's hosting it, next year another region's hosting it. And you cut in as much as we possibly can. in that week. If if you don't come back exhausted from that week, then then we've done something wrong. It's a bit like boot camp. But we will cover almost every aspect that we can that you've learnt or practiced during the year, we will cover there. And that's a way that we know all the regions will do the anchor systems this way. All the regions will deploy that way. All the regions have the same convoy drills. Because when we suddenly going across as Leon mentioned yesterday's call out, There were people from the the one region and a second region. So when that team gets together, convoy drills must be exactly the same. The concept, yeah, but we do it this way in our region. No, it's all the same. And that happens, that gets confirmed, if not you're not learnt, but confirmed. Yeah. That's the national training camp each year. So apparently there is some time left for families. I'm just not sure where it fits in. And I I think that answered I I think that directs speaks directly to my next point was How do you maintain the competency when members have lives and careers outside of of the search and rescue world? But it sounds like you offer so much training time that there's no way the the one the one step I can quote in with one of the regions I was at the AGM and they put the numbers up on the board and then you can play with these numbers for all sorts of things, but we we check Every hour that we do. So training. So if we all go to training, it starts at six thirty in the morning and it finishes at at one o'clock, two o'clock, three o'clock, whatever it is. and we count those hours and then we count the we also record all the incidents or the missions that we attend. And I just happened to notice earlier this year that one of the regions put their stats up and where they had eighteen thousand hours of training, they then did three thousand hours of rescue. So that tells me for every one hour of rescue we're doing six hours of training. And it comes you a perspective as to you know, the numbers were just they weren't exactly eighteen thousand, but it was seventeen thousand, something, something, and three thousand. And I thought, wow, that that put it into perspective that for every one hour spent on missions, we're doing six hours in training. That's great. that's obviously the only way we can measure it and see. And the harder you train, the easier it gets. Simple as that. Yes. And I think The validation of that is just in that last mission you spoke about where the two teams came together seamlessly and went executed. And that is exactly how you validate capability i in that in that sense, right? Let's not say there's no chipping between the teams, but we all know what we do. Yeah, that's that's behind the curtain. Nobody sees that. Leon, I I think we mentioned it before, but what do you believe makes somebody good at search and rescue that can't be taught in a classroom? First of all, there's no I in team. You need to be able to work in in a team because it's a team that makes the success. Yeah. you have to have you have to be passionate to be able to do what you do. Because of that passionate, you know, if the passion is not there, you're not gonna have the tenacity to work through the time required to have the mission completed. And I think it is a combination of all those things. You have to be that will bring everything together. for a person to be a successful rescuer. Eileen, do you you have any other thoughts on that? What makes somebody a good SAR team member? Yeah, I I think definitely for guys that are able to think rationally and out of the box as well, it's an important perspective to to make a plan or to find a solution and not only be faced with a challenge and staring blindly at that challenge. A lot of our members have the the ability to to actually work through a problem and to find a solution and it's it's very frequently not a a conventional solution, but it works and it's safe. and also another aspect of it is bringing a calmness to a situation. Many times when you've got a chaotic scene around you and everything's milling around, you know, when the members walk onto a scene, there's a measure of calm because you working through a problem systematically. I think that's also a benefit that that a lot of the training brings to it is it brings that that silent confidence into a scenario where you are are able to handle almost anything. So an individual that has that type of demeanor already coming into the situation, which is then further developed through training and building that confidence makes a fantastic rescue. Yeah. And I I I did want to touch on something that you brought up that I I truly believe, and it's something that teams probably struggle with a little bit is if it is unconventional, but it is safe, that being able to run with that and have the And have the authority to say yes, let's do that and and try it out is huge in in any kind of rescue scenario, right? I think that's that's important. If if I can add to that, and I know in where you come from, you've got volunteer fire and rescue in a in a a large portion of only your big areas that are professional. You bring other skills to the party because you're all working in other lives, you've got other experiences and other skills. And we see that so often here because you know, Africa relies on innovation and improvising. We don't have all the right equipment for every opportunity. But in return, we're also not stuck. But we have to stop. we don't have the right equipment, therefore we can't do it. We prepared to improvise because we've just grown up that way. We've had to to make a plan to to get something done. And there's very often we do that. And yes, safety is the the name of the game, but we learn to improvise, we learn to work in it. And you also know who to trust. And that's, you know, when we spoke about the call goes out, who's available. We're fortunate, and long may at last touch wood here, that that we've always got more people available than than we actually need. And then you start selecting those members. And it could be something simple like take so and so, he's got a vehicle that has enough seats that's suitable for trooping, versus well, let's take somebody else. He's got a much smaller vehicle. But he's got the radio the right radios fitted in the vehicle so he could act as a relay station for us. And you mix and match the team based on the resources and the capabilities of those people. Some people literally do high angle rescue or high angle work as part of their profession. Yes. so we need them in this particular circumstance. Others are very vehicle dependent in their profession. Others are are this or that or that's how we select the team. But if you just have a department, you've got a fire department and you're all professional firefighters, you just learn everything the fire department teaches you. You don't have an outside life. So we sometimes have that benefit that we we didn't just grow up in the police department. We didn't just grow up in the fire department. Bring and one or two phone calls from the right people, we can bring the most amazing additional resources in. When I think when we suddenly need trains, somebody knows so who's got the right train and things like that that they can bring in. So when you get heavy equipment We don't have it all in the department as you would possibly have in a yes a a well established fire department. But so in their working life knows who the the managing director or the CEO is of the the crane hile company and one phone call and you've got the right crane with the operator, etcetera, there for you. Yeah, and I think that's those pre existing relationships in search and rescue and in at tech rescue, they're super important because exactly who you're gonna get. And they are trusted. And I think that's that's a a major, a major point. A lot of our training, our weekly, monthly training that we do in the practical training, we like to involve other organizations in there. Because our saying is when you arrive on scene, you want to say, How are you, not who are you? Right. you need to know everybody else. And the the closer you work with, we keep using the expression SAPS, but that's our South African police service, our federal police. we know them all. We're them. We know them by name. Rather than just one uniform talking to another uniform and it's not well, who are you, where do you fit in? How are you? You know, how how things go. It makes it so much easier. Yes. It's that that interagency trust is very is very important. I I concur with that. Annaline, can you walk us through a a typical missing person surgery? We talked before about a call comes in, but how does the team turn that limited Initial information into an actual search strategy. Okay. So yeah, that might be a bit dependent on what information we have available, but we'd in general with a missing person start with your last known location or your place last scene and then basically work from there. We try and capture as much of the information that is available to us on an application like Kaltopo to start getting that mapping out and and knowing what we're seeing in in what we're working on, building that picture of what the scene might be. If we have some historical information on the location. specifically if we've had previous call outs to the location or it's known for specific issues, we'd combine that historical knowledge and profiling, if for lack of a better word, to into what we're compiling in our search map or our base as well. and then we'd start having a look at what our resources are. if we have the police service, so SAPs available to us immediately with canines and that might be something that we put out immediately. Same thing with if we have aviation assets available to us, whether it be a a plane or a helicopter and if they can fly in the conditions and we'd get them overhead to to try and eliminate as much as we can from the starting point. also working with a a rapid response team that would then go and have a look at your last known position or your place last scene and then start looking for clues or building a picture from that point. From there on we'd culminate that information and build out our map set again. We don't just want to put members out in the field for the sake of having them search an area. You want to approach it as constructively as possible. so we would then based on either profiling through lost person behavior, for instance, again, like I said, from historical information or whatever other information is available to us, and we would then identify search areas, map those out or or mark them out as assignments, and then we'd then basically structure our teams and get them to start clearing those areas. Large area searches, you and you said it you just don't send people out to search. It's very it's almost surgical what you're doing as far as setting that up to to get that team out there. And it it sounds like you use a lot of different technology and you have assets that are available. And and for the group, from what you've all seen, where where does technology fail i in this situation and does it still fail you in some senses and how do you react to that? So I think that you know, technology true is is something that everybody is more and more getting used to. So one thing that we see in South Africa specific, we said we had some problem with having electricity available, but everybody went past that. So all our vehicles and our mobile command post is situated that we can run for days from a power point of view. Sometimes using some of the products like Caltopo, for example, you have to have cell phone signal or a GS I think it's called a GSM signal available. So if you don't have it in the area then That is not the type of technology you can use in that search, although you can still use it but it updates once you get a signal. But then for that we fall back to things like normal old GPSs. We are all trained heavily in GPSs and map reading and those kind of things. I think technology, the biggest setback that one can lay against technology is if the members are not fully trained in that technology to use it and or don't understand the capabilities of what a product can bring to a search and rescue unit. And I think once you've established that and you can overcome that, then half of the battle has been won. If I could add to that, I think we've got an approach where we don't throw anything out that's old, we'll here's the new stuff that we use. We just add tools to our toolbox. So as recently as literally a week ago We were doing map reading with topographical maps with the newbies. That's why I know because I was giving that instruction. So one needs to be able to revert back because technology doesn't always work. Kaltopo is the be all and end all of what we do. And, you know, when he refers to the members that can't always work the technology, I think he's referring to the oldies like me. That, you know, I just sometimes have to hand my phone to one of the kids and say, Make it, make it work and give it back to me and then I you can track me. But the kicking and screaming, we are being dragged into it. I've got two iPads lying on my desk here that that of are purely for Keltopo and SASA. But we haven't forgotten the old stuff. And whether it's even new equipment, when you've got rope work started off in the old days with figure of eights and things like that, and now you've got fancy descenders and things, you still need to know how to use the old stuff. And because things don't always work or aren't always appropriate or the right thing at the right time. So It's just we are adding more tools to our toolbox, but we don't take too many tools out. I'm sure there are some things that we don't do anymore. but we have definitely moved with the times, but we still remember where we came from. And Annaline, I you did and you've all mentioned Kaltopo. Is that the only software do you guys use or do you we commonly use SARCOP in the USAR site. Do you guys ever use that? So no, I'm actually not familiar with what you've mentioned there. we do utilize D four H as well for our incident management and our personnel tracking. So that's another system that we utilize and quite heavily at this stage. I think maybe one of the tools that we have dropped to a large extent is is paperwork. Although I know a lot of the guys in our joint operations center still have the little piece of paper next to them. But we have tried to migrate that as much as we can to a system being D four H, especially for, you know, if you do sit with a situation where it does go legal route, you know, that you have got that information and it's time lobbed and it's thorough and it's there. Just not having to deal with missing papers and things like that is definitely the way to go. And yes, Keltopa like mentioned is something that we've actually started utilizing quite intensively over the last couple of years. Historically before that we utilized Basecamp and Map Source for our standard GPS work or or mapping work that we did, if that was done on system. But we've just found Keltopa to be very user friendly for us and obviously it's very mobile. So it's it's much easier to utilize with the broader team and then also to integrate other teams into our systems so that we can we can work more seamlessly with either emergency services or the police department. So I think, yeah, in terms of systems, Jens correct me, those are the primary ones that we utilize. I I don't know where I'm missing. Yeah. And I we we utilize Cal Topo too on the the missing person side. A lot of our police departments will use it and it is very as you said, you can integrate easily easily with department to department. The SARCOP is more, I guess, based on urban search and rescue, where it's it'll allow a team to map out, hey, you have to search this specific area and it gives you the ability to mark structures and stuff. It it has a probably a lot more wide of range of scope that I can with with my low level brain can understand. But yes, there's a lot of similar systems that's interesting to hear, like D4H that's used locally, but also around the world. It's It's cool that it's all the same systems that we all use. Leon, to get into the environment that you guys operate in, South Africa has a probably a wide array of varying terrain and environment, but what terrain presents the greatest challenges for your organization? The greatest is wilderness areas. We are wilderness some of the training that we give is to be wilderness specialists. So that we all are proficient in driving our four by fours, privately owned four by fours, into the wilderness area where we can go and and do their do the rescues. South Africa in itself is is a very interesting area in that regard. In the north you've got areas where it's like it's a bushfeld, it's thick bush, but it's also wilderness with high mountains, deep ravines, rivers flowing strongly through it. On the eastern side you've got w lots of forestry. If you go to the central South Africa, that is now f again it's We we always say that it's flat, it's very boring to drive there because everything looks the same for hours in a day. But each of those areas brings a uniqueness for that specific region operating there to learn how to operate in that environment, in the challenges that we're faced with when you go out and you conduct a search in that area. But it's something that we do cover extensively in our training, not just from the driving point of view, but also is if you go out you don't know if you're gonna come back tonight. You can only come back tomorrow or the day after. Do you have to be hundred percent self sufficient to survive yourself and to get your patient out in that in that area that we're facing? And just of of interest for myself, but in this for anybody, if if you all have a different answer, is there some sort of environmental hazard that you think would surprise rescuers from outside of of South Africa? Yes. Our rivers, you can no longer drink any water anywhere. We we don't refer to it as water, we call it liquid. And the closer you get to an urban area, the the more hazardous that water becomes. Sadly, you know, we are not we are not environmentally conscious. We have not convinced ninety percent of the population not to contaminate rivers and you know we've got informal settlements as you know, squatter camps that that suddenly just spring up somewhere. And really everything just runs straight into the rivers. I I probably I would say our biggest environmental challenge to us being out there is is not the wet or the cold or the extreme temperatures that we've got to deal with. We we have some cold. We're going through a cold spill at the moment. We're all cuddled here in our thick jerseys. But we're a very hot country, so we we operate quite happily in in the hot. You know, if I think back to my military days, you say w Russia had stored equipment in Mozambique and we're going to just fly the troops in and then drive down and invade us. We said, bring it on, because if you you step out of Moscow and you land in Mozambique, you'd be dead within hours. but so we are at a different kind of t terrain that we have here. But we don't have to be very self sufficient when I when we do the survival training and things like this, the idea that we're going to purify water out of the river, you're gonna you're gonna first sieve the lumps out before you purify the water. So make sure you've got enough. And we we either have rivers that are this wide and nothing available or they're in flood and you can't drive across it but wait three hours and it's back down to here. So we get a lot of rainfall in a very short space of time and then it moves on. We don't have like typically European rivers are all in constant wide and there and provide them with their life support and their water. The few big rivers we've got we had to build dams on to to give us hydroelectric schemes and things like that and our water supply. But the water's probably the one resource that's The most scarce in this country, but also the trickiest when you're out in in an in the wilderness terrain. Don't the wilderness is not your friend when it comes to water. Yeah, so it any swi any swift water technician would be would be hesitant then for what what you're saying. Leon, what are your what are your thoughts? So you know in those I agree with Ivo with regards to the water, because it's not just the quality of the water, it is the strainers that's formed in the water as well because of all the junk that goes into the water. And you can't see those because it's underwater and the water is not clear for you to identify them so it's easy for you to swim into something like that and yourself get stuck. The other challenge is that if you go just a little bit outside of of of of the into the countryside, there's this might be a w nice wide water flows that we with the flow is not too bad. But those waters again contain things like the crocodiles and hippopotamus. And that is another challenge for those people in those areas to to work in. And we've seen that we we assisted with mass flood areas in KZN. But you can't just go in and search for somebody in a pool of water. You first need to establish the are you really the only only living being in that water or is there something waiting for you? I think those are those for me also I agree with Ivor. That's the I think the biggest surprise somebody from outside can get, apart from the nice temperatures that we have, and sometimes people can think it gets too hot here. They're not used to it. But I think that is for me is the main risks. Annaline, do you have do you have any other surprise hazards that would interest us? No, I c I concur with the jeans. They've definitely hit the nail on the head with that one. I I think the polite her biggest problem is us incompetent rescuers which she's gotta manage. She told me that before you guys got on. I think the I've seen the the videos of the the aggressive hippos and I mean that that would throw a a hitch in any rescue plan, I would imagine. Let's let's talk tech rescue and rope rescue. Where does tech rescue fit in the in SARS's mission? I think it is it is one of our main areas of of training because we use it quite a lot. Most of the rescues that we do is in mountainous areas and even if it is just to to be lay a stretcher down the mountain to make sure that there's control over the movement or it is to get somebody off a cliff. That is where it is quite important for everybody in the team to know and understand what's going on. Although not everybody's gonna swing at the end of the rope, but the people around the the support team also needs to understand what the process is. and I I think that that for for us it is quite important. Most of our regions actually invested a lot of money into buying the technology relating to the rope work and make sure that the rope work kit that they've got is up to standard and can be used anywhere across the country. Yes. So we've standardized on certain of our equipment that we've bought and the r the size of the ropes for example, to make sure that if there is a national call out like we would call it, that the pers the people that came from the Western Cape don't come and be surprised to the equipment that's been used in Ghauten. Because it's all the same and everybody's a failure with with the type of rescues that then is being conducted with those kit. Yeah. And and then what do you guys use as far as I think some of most of our departments are trying to get away in in I guess I'd have to call it fifteen millimeter rope or half inch rope. have you all have you all moved to like the eleven mil or we we were fortunate that we were metricated where's you you worked on half inch, which comes out of the thirteen mil rope, which is a bit like a garden hose. Yes. so we had in years gone by, we our standard was eleven millimeter, which is slightly thinner. But I think we we are moving more and more down to the the ten and a half, the tens. And you know, there are still some ropes that are really coming in. And we look when you look at buying devices, can they operate at a nine point eight millimeter yeah? so we've we've gone off thick stuff. It's heavy to carry, it's bulky, it's difficult to tie in and things like that. We've got quite a bit. A lot of the modern stuff now, if I can use the generic Hoover word Dynema is the name of the game. Dynema is inherently bad to tie in, but we've now got climbing ropes. There's a one of our local ones called super speed where the sheath is a standard climbing rope sheath, but the the inner core is now Dynema. So you've got immense strength and very little stretch. So when you're putting in a hauling system You're not spending the first three meters just taking up the stretch in the rope. You immediately are starting to haul. I think something else from when we talk rope work, we tend to think of mountain climbers and mountains and things like that. We do quite a few calls, certainly up in Limpopo and in Pumalonga, where we have vehicles and buses going over edges on mountain passes, and you've then got to get from a road structure down to them to get. the the victims out, including even using vehicle winches because the bus needs to be rolled over or under water to get to the passengers underneath. Right. to do that. So it's rope work is is two sides, not just the mountain stuff and aluminium carabiners and things, but some almost heavy rescue using your vehicles at anchors on the mountain pass and getting people down to the victims down there. Our road manners and our road ability, our driving ability is not necessarily first world. Yeah. On the state of our vehicle. Yes. Yeah, no, and I'm sure the terrain tends to to have a say in that as well. exactly. So in that that same sense, if missing person search turns into a technical rescue, does the command structure of the team change at that point or does the the composition of the team change when that those facts come together? I think it would have depends on every call out. Most probably the command structure would stay the same because Even though you've got an a field team leader that's out in the field with a team, there is still a support structure in the duty offices in the background that's supporting that field team leader. And if they if that search then suddenly changed into something else, that that field team leader will always have the support of the people that that is not on the scene and then they can provide people to come on scene as quickly as possible. Normally we because of our training, most of the people know a lot about everything. But they're not all specialists in that thing, in then in that aspect or that discipline. But I th in in such a call out, you know, we on the in the field we normally can can make a plan. And if it's really becoming technical to say, but now we need something else or we need somebody more senior to step in, those calls are being made and those people s will respond to that seed. The the equipment you were we were just talking about, the equipment and how it's changing. Is there a piece of equipment that's proven to just be indispensable in your environment? And it could be it could be afraid. I think that isn't the biggest piece of equipment. Yes, I I think that there is there's a lack of that sometimes. I'm ch checking to see if my wife's listening and others I I can't answer that question. I think if if if we took unit equipment where you know each member provides their own personal equipment. And whether that's, you know, sort of road four by four related or or rope work related. And then we have unit gear. But certainly within the unit, the one thing that's come in that I wish was around twenty six years ago when I started was the the litter wheel that you could put a basket stretcher onto a litter wheel and and get carrying places down mountains sucks. Hiking trails are always made to be one person width and when you're carrying a stretcher, you're always two people plus a stretcher width. So th the litter wheel is certainly a a big thing. that's coming in the last ten years. I'm trying to think how long we've had them. And I I remember the fear and trepidation of the the the the first committee that spent in our case a vast amount of money. You know, when we've got to buy it with our exchange rate, it becomes really expensive. And we thought when we got to the annual general meeting there would be questions asked about how did we commit so much money of our hard earned money to to one item. And the only question that came up is why did we only buy one? Yeah, well that's a good problem to have. That you know that particular team has now got two. That's perfect. Normally the people that's that did the carry out before, they are the last ones to complain about the wheel being available now. I'm sure. The new people coming in, they haven't been exposed to carrying somebody off a mountain by hand. So they're all actually privileged and lucky. I I and I think that that wheeled system is only becoming more and more it's shown its its use throughout the world. Analine, I did want to ask one follow up question. You talked about the call outs before and the ability to get helicopter assets. What would di what would deny a helicopter request? So say the people that were stuck in the the mountains just recently, why can't a helicopter always get out to these people to help? So sadly the first thing on helicopters is at this stage it's a very scarce resource for us to have. primarily our primar primarily our helicopters come from the military and they are unfortunately very restricted at this stage. So it's not something that is readily available anymore. However, when they they have got available, they will make those assets available to us and we have utilized them on a number of rescues very successfully. Second to that it would be police helicopters. Again They're not there there aren't that many of them and they might not be fitted with hoists. However, we could still use them for trooping and things like that. In the Western Cape region, we have air mercy service, which is utilized very frequently in the Western Cape, especially with the Table Mountain, but that makes up one of their primary modes of rescue. And that would only not fly in circumstances where you have adverse weather, where they're actually can't fly. And then other than that, we have utilized private helicopters as well on previous occasion where the guys are able to troop just to get members into the field so that they can then commit to a rescue from that point onwards. So not necessarily in a in a rescue capacity with the helicopter itself, but to get members on the ground in a in a situation that might take a lot of time to reach if they had to to travel that by foot. So yeah, I think in summary it it is one of the challenges that we do have. It it's not something that's readily available, but obviously when those assets are available, it's a game changer and it definitely helps the mission to to have those kinds of assets available. Of course. And I'm sure weather plays a factor in and all the other components that go into it. And then I'll s I'll stay with you and just ask that. So we're we're talking about finding looking for a victim, we find the victim, request a helicopter if we can. What level does SARSA bring to the field medically? Okay, very good question. So our members are trained as wilderness first responders and that is one of our requirements to become a rescue qualified member. So the members that are actually out in the field that will have those kinds of interactions will have some degree of medical training, even if just from a first responder perspective. And that is then also with the added capability of the wilderness aspect there too. So being able to keep a patient stable for a prolonged period of time in a wilderness setting. where you don't have all the bells and whistles to to be able to monitor that individual's situation. We are fortunate that some of our members are paramedics as well and where we know what the situation is and we have those members available, we would then try and deploy those members to take over that primary medical function within the team if we're responding. However, it does happen that you have a situation where we do end up with a patient and we don't have a dedicated paramedic that is available. And even if that situation does run into s to a nighttime operation, for instance, or we can't get that patient evacuated, all dependent on what the situation is, that patient will obviously be monitored by an individual that is dedicated to the patient for the duration. So that they'll be monit monitoring the stats of the individual and be checking for changes so that we know how to respond to that. And especially if the situation is deteriorating, And we know we need to make a more serious or definitive plan. What we do try to do in addition to that is to have radio communication or telephone communication if it is available to us in the in the situation with a senior paramedic, or even if it's available a doctor, but we can, with assistance and some guidance, run the vitals through those qualified medical personnel so that they can guide the situation if it's necessary. Okay. So you you're you guys It's it's great that you do bring those capabilities out to the field. I d I don't I don't know a lot of teams besides the Wilderness First Response that really go in in depth besides maybe one of those flying doctor services or or something like that that can actually take care of the patient on the ground for prolonged periods of time and especially given the terrain that you guys work in, it must be it's just daunting. Yeah, look, it's definitely it it's not a primary it's not our primary function to be there. However, due to the areas that we work in and what we do as a search and rescue unit, it might end up in a situation where we are the only lifeline until a point where we can get that patient out to definitive medical care. And that's always the primary goal is to get either to get definitive medical care to the patient in the form of a paramedic that will walk in with us if they're available. But unfortunately in a lot of the circumstances, it is a case where we would reach the patient first and we would need to stabilize that patient in order to move them to get them to an ambulance or something like that. So yes, it it is critically important to at least be able to do the basics. and at least at the very least monitor for change and be able to get that information through so that you can take the best action possible for the patient. Leon or Ivor, d is there anything you want to add on the medical side or the medical capabilities of the team? Yeah, I think what we're lucky that we've got very good relationships with the governmental emergency services as well as private emergency services. Even if we go out on a call out, we know that one of our members should get injured. They support a phone call away, people are there to come and assist us. And a lot of those instances where we do act, you know, they would come and they would deploy with us. So the chances that we are on the ground without having a paramedic close by or at least a radio call or a phone call away is very scarce. But it has happened. But then we we also know that with the the team that we have in the background in support of the team that's out in the field, all those concerns can be addressed. Evo. I think if if I can also add to that, w we as a as a unit in the different regions in their own regions, we get involved in various events that take place, whether they are marathon events, whether they are mountain bike events, you know, typically we look at the mountain bike stuff as the great stuff. A a road bike event is actually a pain in the butt because then you're just fighting with motorists because you've closed their roads. But if you can get out into the rural areas and, you know, do a a seven day stage race, a nine day stage race. It's a great area in which to keep your skills up because mountain bikers provide you with a steady flow of patients to practice on. And a lot of those MITs that we have when they're doing those events get to be out there with someone who has the skills. And then you learn and you you build confidence and train. Because you don't want your first patient to be that critically injured one in the mountains. You want one Not that I want anybody to be critically injured, but but mountain bikers are a great source of good patience where we can practice on, if I can phrase that as politely as possible. That that makes total sense. And very much if you look at the average medic, they respond to motor vehicle accidents, you know, in companies train you to be the resident first aider. And somebody gets their hand caught in the shredder, your job is to stand next to them for ten minutes until the EMT arrives. And whisk them off to hospital in an ambulance. Our patients are two, three, four hours away from a hospital. and not just in a duration, but in the time it takes or the distance it takes to physically get them there. So we need to be able to look after a patient for an ongoing time. And events bring us a source of income. So that helps us buy things like litter wheels and things like that, but it also gives us a good Training ground to kind of use the word to blood some of our younger members to to get them involved in the process. Yeah, I know. I think it's those those bread and butter missions that that create that that capability and and help prove out that team and build the team. Leah, I I'm gonna ask you, is there a particular SARS a mission that fundamentally changed the way your organization operates? You ever experienced that? There's a couple of major ones that really changed the focus of how we started to look at at things specifically incident command and being around rivers and swift water on the major floods that we've experienced down in KZN, for example. But then again there's another one that happened with the George in JORS where a building collapsed that then brought we're not trained use our rescuers, but we bring another set of skills to that scene, again incident command related. And it's all these cut type of things that that structured the different regions in focusing on specific areas incident command. But we were also lucky to to have been involved in international rescues where either, for example, led a team to the Turkey earthquakes a couple of years ago. You know, and that's the experiences that they pick up there in communication skills, in winning communication to a disaster area that we've s we specialized in over the years. But even when we think now we can do so. No, there's new challenges that come up and we've got to come back home and we need to sit around the table and rethink those challenges that we've experienced. So I can't say that there's one specific incident. There's a couple of incidents that all guided us to where we are today and still do so going forward. I don't think we can ever sit back and say, now we've we've conquered it all. We are ready for any challenge. Think that day I wanna run away. I don't want to be involved anymore. But I think we there's a couple a couple of rescues that really focus regions, it focused individuals, and it focused teams together in combining and learning through that and then put things new things in place. Yeah. And Evil I I think the the the one that springs to mind with me is we we we did the cyclone in Mozambique. back in twenty nineteen. And we really were going in alongside another relief agency rather than the rescues to to pluck people out of the the trees with the this the the rivers and things like that that were there by the time we get there, because it it's a it literally by vehicle it it's a three day journey for us to get there. We had the foresight there because we could track the weather. We knew the cyclone was coming. So we were ready to respond. It wasn't like an earthquake that suddenly happens this morning and then you you start the process. But that mission was a big one to me. We weren't doing rescue work as such, but when we got there we realized the only way we were gonna distribute food aid was to actually use the rivers and w we had taken boats and things like that with us. We suddenly had to change everything to say it wasn't loading the four by fours with the food aid and getting it out to the people. You couldn't drive anywhere. There was just mud and destruction. But the rivers which had swelled and burst their banks and are now Started coming down and we got out there. So we went with one aim in mind, which was rescue. We went with that we would do those rescues with four by fours, and we ended up doing relief work and doing it with the boats that we taken with us and collected them on the way and took big twin engines, boats, and the fishing vessels and things like that, not just little rubber rubber ducks on the rivers. What got me with that, it wasn't so much we changed our our tactics, but we were successful in it. in in literally in twenty one days we delivered twenty or just over fifty tons of food aid that we we we delivered out to the areas and that was such a small area within Mozambique that we could get it to when you look at the vast map. But did we make a difference to the people in that area? Absolutely. And it it was a very successful mission. I think coming back from that we had to say guys, whatever you've you can't train for everything. But if you train for lots of different things you adapt. to what else you could do. And we were lucky we had people in the team who had their own boats that that were offshore, fishermen and things like that, that we understood the boats and and the safety and all the rest that went with it. And worked along you know, the one thing that struck me from that mission, the particular village that we just came and stayed in and took over, we we took under they had a great big tree and we we all encamped under the tree with the villagers all around us. That village lost twenty-one people in the cyclone. by the time we left twenty one days or two weeks three weeks later by the time we got out of there, we delivered twenty three babies. So you know, but had we set off that we were going to be delivering that many babies, had we set off that we were going to be doing food aid, had we set off that we were going to be suddenly a marine or amphibious process that we had. But that's what we did. In different like that. And stretching communications, we were we were a hundred and thirty kilometers from Beira, which was the nearest big point, and we had to communicate back to Beira because we took over the local soccer field. And when I say soccer field, it's a a flattened patch of grass with some rickety wooden sticks at either end. It's not a stadium. and that that basically became our our landing zone. And at one stage I remember having six helicopters on the ground and and was chasing one of the pilots away to say, go because I've got another one inbound. I need the space. So we were busy. But when you spoke to the pilots, they were always happy to come to Estequina was the name of it. But when they heard Estequina ground on the on the on the the radio, they knew there was someone on the ground that could look after them, you know, that that could operate. We we managed it properly. We did all those things properly. Right. Anile, was there a was there a call that that you there six out to you or a mission? I must say I I agree with what Leon has said. It there there's definitely been a couple of prominent missions, especially of late, being prominent not necessarily in size or proportion, but prominent for our teams and how they affected our teams. and yes, the George Building Collapse that Leon referred to is definitely one of those. it was a a very devastating scenario in a South African context. And the amount of effort that went into that mission was significant. I would Definitely not to the scale that I almost compare it to a nine eleven, you know, in a South African fashion for what was expected. again, not something that's called normal in our scenario. And again not not a type of scenario that we would conventionally respond to. However, the impact that was made on that from the team's side was a substantial impact, although it wasn't necessarily the hands being in the dirt and and digging around, but more from a supporting perspective. And it's wonderful to see the change and the difference that that does make to our emergency, our formal emergency services infrastructure, whether it be the medics, whether it be the SAPS, whether it be the fire department. Like Iver alluded to earlier on We are heavily understaffed in our in our public sector and the guys do not have a lot of support. So it's wonderful to be in a position to be able to support our local services, you know, and give them a bit of depth and and confidence also to know that there is somebody standing behind them. It's not just a single guy with a dog on a scene. There's a couple of of missions where that has been the case. And I think that's what builds that camaraderie and that just feeds the soul. to be able to bring a positive outcome in a situation that would otherwise take either very long or perhaps not happen successfully just due to a lack of resources. Right. Yeah, no, that that's I think that's very that's very profound in that sense. And if and if that those those shape your team and probably the future of where your team is is gonna go. And I'll Analine, I'll stay with you. From your perspective, what can American or European search and rescue teams learn From the way South South Africa rescuers operate. Sure, that might be a question better answered by Ivor or Leon. I think they have a bit more exposure in that regard. I I talked to I I talked to the South to the American teams. They want to hear from you. I think speaking from a purely South African perspective on it, and and we alluded to that a bit earlier on as well, is is we have a saying in in Afrikaans, which is mark a plan. We make a plan. And that's very much the South African way of doing things. We are not faced by a challenge that cannot be overcome. The word cannot doesn't exist. We'll find a way, we'll make it happen. We we had a a recent rescue that we we just referred to a bit earlier on today. And one of the the individuals that was actually part of the rescue is a is a old member of the unit. So an old rescue member. And feedback received from the member was that he's always been on the rescue side of it and understands how the process works, but it was a totally different perspective for him to be on the patient side or on the individual being rescued side of it. and a comment he made was that he had Absolute faith, the guys, the the the people in his party were saying, but what's gonna happen now and where are we going to stay and what's gonna happen and and and and and he just said to them, Just relax. The guys are gonna get you, everything's gonna be sorted. The only thing you need to worry about is being ready when these guys get you. And it was such a phenomenal thing to actually listen to and then work through in in processing that piece of information because it's it's true. That is what we do and that is how we approach the scenario, but you never think of it from the patient's perspective or from the individual being rescued perspective. And it's wonderful to hear from them that they experience the team from that perspective is that they can just be confidence in it's okay, it's gonna happen. So I think, yeah, finishing off and I hope I have answered your question on that. No, absolutely. I think I definitely think that, you know, what other teams might be able to learn from us, and I hope that that is the case, is that you make a plan. You need to be there, you need to be solid, you need to be dependable and you need to be trusted. And I'm sure a lot of other teams have that, but I think that's one of our our strongest points. I appreciate that. Leon, what are your thoughts? I I agree with Analine, you know, it's the ability to think outside the box. One of our strengths is the fact that because we are independent, we are not part of any specific organisation. So we've got the ability to bring lots of organisations together. And think that is what Sarza is doing very well in any scenario. Is that we we are not there to take over. We are there to assist and to help. And because we are cleaning, we bring that attitude, and suddenly people that might have the fight as to who might be the incident commander or who seen it is, you know, we we we've got the ability to de escalate that and just to bring calm and then in the end of the day everybody works together. Ivor, what are your thoughts? I think there's two things. W you know, one of the things we train the members is whatever you put in your vehicle, so whatever piece of equipment you you buy, it must be able to do more than one thing. You know, it can't just be there, even if it's just the the rubber mats where you're in your foothill of your vehicle. Have you thought about using those as as splints or something like that? equipment is always a shortfall in our country because we don't have everything. So as we say, we have to learn and we have to adapt. But because we are so good at learning and adapting. We've got so much equipment because we've got all the contacts to bring other stuff in. As I say, the the knowledge base and the people base of knowing who to call. It it's not what you know, it's who you know. So if you suddenly do need something, and whether it's a helicopter, whether it's a crane, whether it's a a water bowser, whatever it is, we use all the resources available. So on the one hand, I I think we we work depleted. We don't have the resources that we always look at big overseas international teams. I mean, I went to Haiti I went to Turkey and you look at other teams and the equipment they bring in there, but we just have to know how to organize and make do with what we've got. Right. No, that those are all those are all important points that I I know I would take away personally. In in closing, and and Ivar, I'll start with you and we'll go back around the horn to give everyone a chance. But what advice would you give a young firefighter or or rescuer or even a civilian who's looking to join a search and rescue team? What advice would you give them to to To genuinely become competent in SAR, or to even just step forward and take that step and join the team? Yeah, I I think the the biggest issue is the passion. If if I look at the successful members that I've watched grow through the team, it's the ones that come in with that will to learn. You don't know everything when you arrive. We we always want to show that we're not useless, but learning from others and and growing in the process is part of it. And the passion and the desire to want to help other people. It's not just a job. And all too often in some of our government services here, people are just doing a job. I became a policeman or a nurse or a teacher because I now get a salary. And there's not that desire to teach the kids. There's not that desire to help the patient. There's not that desire to fight the crime, sort of thing like that. And it's it's about passion. And the more passionate you are, the more what you put in is what you get out. We also see some members who take a An awful long time to get to become rescue qualified. And but that's so unfair. And what you put in, what you get out. Others seem to zip through the system quite easily. I just love being there at this stage of having done it for a quarter of a century. I can look back and watch people grow through the system and seeing them become absolute experts and passionate rescuers with what we've got. I'm amazed when Aneline says you've only been there for six years. I'm sure it's way longer than that. That's perfect. The impact is longer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Leon, what's what's your for a couple of those grey hairs? That's fair. Leon, what's your what's your advice to to a young person trying to get into the search and rescue room? Never be afraid to move the comfort zone barriers. As long as it's safe, keep on moving them because when you move those barriers where your growth is going to take place and we can experience you're going to gain the experience that you're going to come back and bring back to a call out some s somewhere down the line. Anileen, y you got the closing words. What's the what's the sage advice? As always. Well I was going to say what Imer had said is that you get out of tall what you what you put into it. that is absolutely I think that's probably the best piece of advice that you can give to anybody. But I think in addition to that is to take every opportunity that you're given. in like Leon said, pushing those boundaries, you know, you get that exposure, you build that confidence. And I think that's what eventually makes great members. And equally important is be reliable, be that person that pitches up. Be that person that does the task that you're given and do it well. There's there's no place for taking shortcuts or or faking what you're doing. It's real, it's honest, it's built on trust. it's built on commitment, it's built on dedication. So as long as you have somebody that is willing to put in that work, you're gonna have a fantastic member. Very well said. Very well said. And I and I appreciate the time from everybody and learning about your organization and and essentially showing the rescue community what you guys do and and learning things that help us grow as a team. and I wish you all the best in your journey and your mission ahead and thank you for sharing with us. And if I'm ever over that way, expect a visitor. So please do thank you for having us and you're always welcome. And I've got two patches on the in the mail on the way to you that could make part of your I I will patch I I will showcase them and I have a I have a couple that are coming your way as well. So on behalf of the Rescue Lab, we thank you. And for everyone else, stay tuned for the next one. Thanks for listening to the Rescue Lab. If you found value in today's conversation and want to help strengthen the rescue community, consider supporting the New England Rescue Collaborative Foundation. Every donation helps fund technical rescue scholarships, training opportunities, and educational incentives that prepare rescuers before the next call comes in. You can learn more or make a tax deductible donation at NE Rescue Collaborative. And one last favor, if you enjoy the Rescue Lab, The best way to help us grow is by leaving a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform. It helps more rescuers discover these conversations and keeps us bringing you stories and lessons from some of the world's best rescue professionals. Until next time, keep learning, keep training, and remember, no one else is coming, it's up to us. I'm PJ Halloran and this is the Rescue Lab.