Jo: Hi and welcome to Attach Together, the podcast where we explore attachment theory and what it really means in practice for counselors, psychotherapists and psychologists. This podcast is created by the team at Optima who deliver the level five and level seven diplomas in attachment based psychotherapy. It's a space designed to help you deepen your understanding, reflect on your clinical work and stay connected. to the heart of attachment informed practice. I'm Jo, a counselor, supervisor and attachment based psychotherapist. I founded and created the level five and level seven courses at Optima. Before we get into today's subject, I'd just like to remind you that our episodes include a CPD certificate. And if you'd like to access that, you can visit our website or check the show notes for a link. Joining me today is Jane Brown. Jane is an experienced relationship counselor working online with individuals and couples, both in private practice and with Relate, where she also teaches on a diploma program, as well as our Level 5 diploma. Jane's work is integrative and firmly rooted in attachment theory, making her a wonderful guest for today's conversation on affect regulation. including working with couples. Jane, it's a pleasure to have you with us today. Before we get into the theory of affect regulation, because this can sound quite technical, can't it? Jane Brown: Yes it can. Jo: We know that at its heart it's about how we manage the storms inside us, especially in relationships. So how would you introduce this idea to someone who has never heard the term before? Jane Brown: Yeah, so Joe, what I would say is that affect regulation is really the capacity to monitor, evaluate and manage emotional experiences and how they're expressed. It's really the ability to respond to intense feelings without becoming overwhelmed. And what we know is that difficulty with managing affect is often rooted in early relational patterns. So often the primary caregiver has either failed entirely to respond to the infant's needs or they may have responded inconsistently. And what these non-optimal environments lead to is essentially the infant being exposed to high levels of adrenaline and cortisol. And if they haven't been consistently soothed, then they haven't been able to learn that for themselves. And therefore, defences are triggered. So defences might be around proximity seeking or they might be around avoidance. And these are the types of defences that we see then in our therapy rooms within our couples. Jo: Yeah, give me an example then. So you've got a couple that come in and they're, they come into the therapy room and I guess they're coming probably about maybe an argument that happens over and over again. I'm guessing from my own experience that, you know, they're sitting down and they're looking for a solution to the argument. It's not really about the argument, is it? Jane Brown: No, it's not. It's often about the connection first. It's about the connection between the couple. So essentially it's often about really slowing things down. Jo: Mm-hmm. Jane Brown: So often, what I would see in the therapy room is a real common presentation around a of a pursuer, distancer dynamic. So often we might see the pursuer as kind of that preoccupied, perhaps attachment style and the distancer who adopts a more avoidant style. Jo: Mm-hmm. I kind of feel like a dance floor where you've got one person on the dance floor begging the other person to kind of come and dance with me, come and dance with me. Sort of that pursuer, that pursuer. And the withdrawers like, no, no, no, no, no. But I guess in couples therapy, it's about, isn't it, getting them to get on the same dance floor and learn some kind of a dance together. Jane Brown: Yes, you're absolutely right, because when those dynamics are playing out in terms of affect regulation, both individuals are dysregulated at that point. Jo: Mm-hmm. Jane Brown: They are in their fight flights part of their brain and their defences are up. So the pursuers defence around proximity seeking is activated and the distances defences around avoidance is equally activated and that's as you say it's the dance it just goes round and round and it can be hugely powerful and hugely destructive as well. Jo: Yeah, so as a therapist then, where are we in the middle of that dance? What's our job in that? Jane Brown: Well, I think first of all our job is to name what is happening. You know, I would say that that is a really important intervention. Almost we might say to name it is to tame it. Jo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jane Brown: And we may do that in a certain way. So often we get high conflict couples and it's really difficult sometimes. I don't know whether you find this Joe, but to try and get a word in edge ways. Jo: I think sometimes it's about letting that play out. We're getting a lot of data, aren't we? And I think for me, it's the tension. I think it goes back to what I was saying at the beginning. The couple come in and they sit down with this argument and you think, they want an answer, they want a solution. And they kind of feel sometimes for me that they want it there and then. But like you're saying, it's about slowing things down, isn't it? About sitting back with that and just not getting caught, I suppose, in that dance with them. Jane Brown: Yes, because we absolutely don't want to be on the dance floor with them. We need to be off that floor and we need to be observing. So as you rightly say, it really starts with us and making sure before we even come into that arena that we are managing our own affect. As therapists, that is really important. Jo: I got this image when you said about us not being on the dance floor, almost like that glitter ball. We're above them, aren't we? We're looking at all facets of what's going on in that dynamic of that argument. Jane Brown: Yes. Yes, most definitely. And as you say, sometimes sitting back and allowing that to play out then creates an opportunity for us as therapists. We might say something along the lines of, can I just stop you both there? I wonder whether it might be helpful for me to give you some of my reflections. And what you'll often get at that point is a bit of a, okay. All right, we're going to get some information here and that often is the opportunity to be able to talk about what we might be seeing and what the cycle that we might be witnessing. Jo: Yeah, yeah. I love that idea of giving them our reflections. Would you say that that's got to be quite tentative in terms of who's going to be best at hearing that, the pursuer or the withdraw, I do think? Jane Brown: Yeah, I think that's a really good question. often I even think before we've even gone into that, before we've even actually gone into the reflection point is perhaps to take a pause. You know, just as you were actually saying that, I was thinking, yeah, actually, they might be dysregulated at that point. Are either of them going to be in a place to receive that? So actually it might be, okay, let's just take a pause. Let's just kind of have a bit of a check in perhaps. What's going on for each of you right now in terms of what are you feeling within your bodies? We might do a bit of that somatic work. Jo: What does that look like Jane? Jane Brown: So somatic work really looks at, what are we experiencing within our bodies? It's a key part of affect regulation. It's all about how our bodies are feeling and how our bodies are experiencing. And also from an attachment perspective, what our bodies are remembering as well of past trauma or of past relational experiences. Jo: that. Yeah. Do you do any any exercises with couples to get them to regulate themselves or each other in the room? Jane Brown: Yeah, so, you know, actually what I do when I first start working with a couple is that I try and introduce some of this information upfront, certainly around the individual responsibility side of things. So what I mean by that is that if we have two individuals that come into the couple environment that are both dysregulated, that is really difficult to work with. And whereas, of course, we respond to what we have in Jo: Mm-hmm. Jane Brown: front of us. think giving the information upfront in terms of the affect regulation and what is needed in order to be able to think and feel and be rational can be really helpful because it gives couples as individuals some time to reflect on what they might need to do in terms of managing themselves. Jo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jane Brown: So I suppose that's that early sort of introduction. That's that early signposting piece, perhaps even at the at the assessment stage or certainly in the first session. And then in terms of within session, what I might introduce, I might introduce a almost kind of a connection check in. So what I might say is something along the lines of I just want to take a little pause here and let's just think about the connection. I understand that what you're saying here is really important for both of you and this argument is really painful and we're going to come back to that. But let's just take a pause right now and let's just focus on the connection between the two of you. So if I was going to ask you what you might rate your connection out of 10, 10 being the most connected you've ever felt, zero being the least, what would it be right now? and I would ask that to each of the couple and then I would say if I was a fly on the wall and that was a seven or an eight what would I be noticing differently and often they say something like well we would actually be sat a bit closer together. right okay well actually what he normally does is just put his hand on my knee and what I might say is okay how would it feel just to do that right now. Jo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jane Brown: and working in the moment can often have a huge impact. Jo: Yeah. It kind of stops that doesn't it, gives them chance to regulate what you're saying. I really like that. You know, if I was a fly on the wall, you know, what would connected look like? What would it mean? What does it feel like? Because I think, if we think about love languages, for example, everyone's thoughts of connection is different, isn't it? So you're getting the couple to use their own resources to feel connected in the moment. Jane Brown: Yes. Mm. well, 100 % and also it is about, as you say, it's about giving the couple the resources that they already know and it's also about giving reassurance and hope that they have been connected before. You know, it's just that right in this moment, they are dysregulated and they just need to bring themselves back and need a little bit of help to do that, but ultimately they can do it. Jo: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that sort of idea of rupture and repair, that they can have a rupture and then repair afterwards. Jane Brown: Yes and what we're doing Joe is very much modelling that moment by moment. Jo: Yeah, yeah. Is that always possible? what? I'm just, guess what I'm wondering now is what happens if one of the coupliffs never experience repair? Jane Brown: Yeah, you know, I think that that is a real challenge. You know, it really is. And I think with that, you know, what we need to do is work really slow. We have to slow things down. I mean, I might introduce even perhaps a breathing exercise and perhaps do that together. You know, the three of us, you know, I might want to temperature check that. Jo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Jane Brown: You know, and just how would it feel to do a little bit of breathing now? You know, what would that feel like to do that? Jo: One of things that I've done with some couples in the past is I've got them, if I've seen them together, is we've all stood up and I've got them to actually hold each other and breathe while they're holding each other just so they can kind of create some safe space. Not with all couples, you know, it's not always possible. And I have actually done it when I've worked online with couples as well. I've got them to, if they're in the same room, I guess the problem is they can't do that if they're not in the same room, can they? Jane Brown: No, but I think that that's a lovely example of that natural want and human drive to be close to another and the romantic partner that we've sought out. Being able to co-regulate through physical touch, it's so powerful, isn't it? Jo: Mm-hmm. It is, As you were just saying that, Jane, what I was thinking about was, I think something we touched on right at the beginning, that often the arguments that couples are getting into that exacerbate the affect, often really it's not about the argument, would you say? Jane Brown: Yeah, I would totally agree with you. you know, often what we say from an attachment perspective is that we seek a romantic partner based on familiarity. So what we're looking for is something that is familiar to us. And that can be either positive or negative. Jo: Yeah, yeah. Jane Brown: So for example, you know, we might have a client who has chosen their partner who reminds them of their father. And perhaps, you know, the father was terribly avoidant. And then, you know, what? Jo: Mm-hmm. Mmm. Jane Brown: happens is that there is an unconscious expectation that the attachment wound that is being brought is somehow repaired. But of course, a lot of the time, the other partner is completely unaware and also having their own defences triggered and their own attachment wounds reopened at the same time. Jo: Yeah, so sort of this expectation that this new relationship that feels familiar could actually have a different outcome but without the awareness because this is all unconscious stuff isn't it? Jane Brown: Yes, yes most definitely and then as you say so it's rarely about the actual thing you know whether it be you know the classic of you haven't put the bins out or you know it was your turn you know often there are so many hidden messages that actually it was about you not being present in that moment or it was about you not listening to me or it was about me having to remind you about that. Jo: you Yeah. Yeah, I can't trust you to do what we've agreed or you're going to let me down or I guess it goes into some of those, you know, I'm not enough for you to take notice of me. Jane Brown: EEEE Yes, yes. And that is why, you know, the connection piece, the affect regulation and the co-regulation is so important because that is where the foundation of trust starts. Jo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that foundation of trust and when the affect is not being triggered or the attachment system is not being triggered then the couple can start to think and feel together. Jane Brown: Yes, 100%. And I do think that psychoeducation has got a big role to play with our couples. you know, often I find simply by just explaining even the window of tolerance, you know, what that looks like and the hand model of the brain, which I know has been talked about in previous episodes, just a 10 minute cycle of education can make a real difference because suddenly it transforms what can be such a negative space into a collaborative space. You know, we're all working together. We're all Jo: Okay. Jane Brown: trying to keep within the window of tolerance. Jo: Yeah, I think what I was thinking when you were saying that is it makes it there's not something wrong with me or us. There is something that we can understand. And then is that hope again, isn't it? Coming back to that. Jane Brown: It is, it is. So we're moving away from blame and pathology and we're looking at the problem being the problem and the problem being that cycle. Jo: Yeah. Yeah. Jane Brown: And we're using tools, you know, such as psychoeducation, such as the co-regulation that we've talked about to, you know, as you say, Joe, really move out of that space of blame and conflict and tit for tat. And we're moving into an understanding arena. Jo: Yeah, I often refer to it as a win-win. How can we make this a win-win rather than an I've got to win or you've got to lose? Because there's a lot of that that happens, isn't there? Jane Brown: There's an awful lot of that that happens. and I would say that the work has to be carried out outside of the session. think often there's can be an expectation that we're going to fix it all, in the session. And, I would say also that this is something to really contract around, in the early sessions. Because yes, can look at co-regulation and we can do all of this wonderful stuff within session, but it's got to be followed up outside. It's got to be practiced. Jo: Yeah, you briefly touched on contracting there, Jane. Would you say a bit more about what other things might be important in that contract in terms of affect regulation? Because some couples might carry on the session afterwards, might and they, to carry on an argument. Jane Brown: Yes. Well, 100%. So, I would say there's contracting that needs to happen before they come into a session and also when they leave. So I might have a conversation around almost bringing their best selves, at least starting in that way. And what might that involve? What might need to happen for them? So getting into a good habit of managing their own affect. Jo: Mm-hmm. you Jane Brown: in advance of a session what might that look like I don't know about you Joe but often I can get couples coming straight from a work meeting they kind of crammed it in or they've gone one straight from one thing to another to another and and just having given yes Jo: Yeah. They're not bringing it themselves then. Jane Brown: I mean, ideally, and of course, this does sound very idealistic, you know, doesn't it? But, you know, what we're trying to do is to model, you know, what kind of almost an optimal situation for them to be able to explore what's keeping them stuck and to be able to change relational patterns. So that would be the bit about coming in. And as you rightfully say, you know, there definitely needs to be something around what happens at the end of the session, especially if it's been, perhaps a difficult session with lots of of conflict around and this might be a point at which we might introduce something called a connection ritual. connection rituals are really opportunities for couples to co-regulate. Jo: Mm-hmm. Jane Brown: It's an opportunity to feel safe and secure in each other's space that is predictable and consistent. So what that does is it gives often an experience that they haven't had, you know, in childhood. So these connection rituals can become quite important. And it was just when you were mentioning about the ending there of a session. there might be an opportunity to talk to them about what a connection ritual might look like for them out directly after a session. Jo: to get them to practice that co-regulation like you say. I loved what you said earlier about each person in the couple being responsible for their own affect. And as you said that what occurred to me was, do you know what? I wonder if that would be a really new concept for some clients in that couple dynamic. Often, maybe if you're a bit more preoccupied. looking for the other person to co-regulate you rather than being responsible for your own co-regulation. Jane Brown: Yes, I think that that is a really excellent point. And that may be something that we gently explore in the early sessions. How does that idea sit with each of them? And we may do it in a certain way, in a gentle way, that might say... noticing that, often couple counselling can be quite a tricky process. It can be quite challenging. I'm wanting for you both to keep yourself safe and secure and for you to really look after yourselves. let me just ask how you're planning to do that. So we might do that in kind of a slightly different way. Jo: I love that. And also it's empowering isn't it for the person who perhaps doesn't believe that they've got any resources themselves to calm their own affect. this idea that you can be responsible for that for yourself, you can do things to help yourself. And that kind of has a knock-on effect, doesn't it then, within the couple? Because I guess if you've got the pursuer, for example, going after the withdrawer, and the withdrawer's thinking, I can't ever get this right. I don't really get it. I don't get what they want. I don't get why it's often the pursuer is creating the argument because some connection is better than no connection at all. Jane Brown: Exactly that, exactly that. And just as you were saying that, Joe, it made me think about introducing techniques such as safe words. So. When a couple leaves a session, we need to be kind of ensuring that they are able to slow themselves down, just as we've been coaching them, perhaps to do so within a session. We might talk about a safe word strategy. Jo: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Jane Brown: So what I often say is come up with a word that gives you really good memories because this needs to be a really positive strategy. This is not a point of failure. This is actually a point of success. So come up with a really good positive word and then when either of you feel that you've just crept out of your window of tolerance, Jo: you Mm. Jane Brown: You need to say the word and contract beforehand what will happen. So who's going where? So the safe word strategy needs to be developed in advance. You might even do it in a session actually about what that looks like. And then when the safe word is said, what I sometimes suggest is that the partner that said the word has got the responsibility to say when they're ready to come back. And that time apart, Jo: you Jane Brown: is an absolute opportunity for each partner to self-regulate whatever they're going to do there, whether it's going to be breathing, whether it's going to be going out for a walk, whether it's going to be listening to some music, that is their responsibility at that point to calm themselves. Jo: Mm. I love the positive safe word. It has to be a positive memory. I really like that one. I'm going to nick that one, I'm having that in my toolkit. Have you got any other strategies that you may give to clients? Jane Brown: Yes, Joe. it was the Gottman, so the well renowned relationship experts often talk about a sense of fun and play in a relationship that can so easily be lost. And, you know, how can we reintroduce that idea for our couples? How can we help them to manage their affect through fun and play through almost triggering those happy, lovely hormones, the oxytocin for example. Yeah, so there's so many ideas out there that we can use. One of my favourites is around the date night. Now this has got a bit of a twist on it. So this one is where couples will, and what they can do is create rules. So if for example they are perhaps under some financial strain, they might create a rule where there's a budget of £10. Jo: I love that. Jane Brown: For example, if they're constrained by babysitters, the rule might be it has to be in the house. But what they do is they each write a number of fun activities or whatever. They write them down and it could be as simple as cooking together. It could be playing a game. It could be don't know it could be trying a new food and what they do is they write these out they cut them out they scrunch them up and they put them in a pot and then at the same time every week they take turns to take one out and it's then their responsibility to create that for that particular date night and what that does is it stops this who whose turn is it sort of situation and it sort of activates a little bit of fun, a bit of surprise, a bit of play. Jo: Mm-hmm. You're absolutely right. The importance of play on affect regulation, often it's not something that we talk about a lot, is it, that playfulness, but it has a massive impact, doesn't it, on being able to regulate and feel safe and secure and have fun? Have you got any other tips? Jane Brown: Well, I would say that for me, the close of the day that sort of comes into the connection rituals. But what I find more and more, and it's probably with, the onset of more and more technology, more and more working from home and more and more kind of preoccupation with technology is that couples seem to go to bed at different times. and they really miss each other. So what I often talk about is, and be realistic about it, if you're not going to be able to do this every night, pick some nights where it's going to happen, perhaps at the weekend. Create a little ritual for yourselves. What I would say is, you know, the going to bed is not the time for any big arguments or discussions. It's definitely not. It's a real opportunity for connection to prepare your nervous systems for sleep and for rest. So that might be something like an appreciation for each other. It might be a prolonged hug or a cuddle. There's something powerful about closing the day together, preparing for rest. Jo: It really sort of backs up that idea, doesn't it? Don't go to sleep on an argument. Jane Brown: it does so we're taking that principle and we're just giving it a little bit Jo: Yeah, think technology can really, get in the way of affect regulation, particularly if, one partner is on their phone all the time, is quite secretive about their phone, maybe there's shame associated with... I mustn't take time for myself, so they might be being secretive and that can be interpreted very differently, can't it, from someone who is the other partner, should I say. Jane Brown: Yes, it absolutely can. And actually I refer to phones as the modern curse of relationships. It's something, that can have such a negative impact, but conversely, such a positive impact if the time between that the couple has is protected from that. So even as simple as an agreement of we charge our phones outside of the bedroom at night or You know, we have a time where we check in, know, which is another technique that I often talk about checking in regularly at the same time every day. I use, I think I feel I need. So they check in using that and you might introduce maybe an Amago concept at that point as well to help to to help the couple to be able to really listen and understand each other. Jo: and I think you're right, the Imago model is really helpful, isn't it, in clarifying what's transmitted and what's received. Jane Brown: Yes, very much so. that's really important when it comes to affect regulation, because if a couple aren't doing that, what they're basically in is this horrible game of tennis, which is the listening to respond. If we move away from that into listening to understand, as you say, that's when we can just slow things down and really receive perhaps the message that is intended. Jo: Yeah. And I think, you know, what's kind of weaved its way through the whole of our chat today is this idea of slowing things down. And I know for me, I mean, not so much now, but I know when I very first started seeing couples, I felt a huge responsibility as a therapist to make a difference, to make a difference quickly. and great supervision helped me to see that actually some of the acting out, some of the arguments are helpful, but it's a balance, isn't it? It's a balance between stepping in and stepping out and managing that with a couple, you say? Jane Brown: I would totally agree and I had similar experiences to yourself as well, that real urge to fix. But I think upon reflection, when we inadvertently even put ourselves into that expert position, that creates a whole new dynamic between the couple as well. So for ourselves, it's so important to be able to slow things down. Jo: Yeah, you just talked there about the dynamic between the three. My experience has been sometimes that either one of the couple feel that I might be siding with the other one, even though, I've worked very hard to try and not have that. Is that something that resonates with you? Jane Brown: Yes, it does because we're all human, aren't we? So sometimes these things are going to crop up wherever there's a free. And of course, as much as we can use our curiosity, sometimes that will happen. And what I will often do is certainly take that to supervision. But secondly, just explore that. Jo: you Jane Brown: sometimes within, the session as well, if it's appropriate, of course. Jo: Yeah and there's a concept isn't there you just touched on that about being a three there's a very different concept isn't there and we could we could go down a rabbit hole here so I probably won't go down something very very interesting to think about being in a triad rather than a didic relationship. Jane Brown: Yes, I completely agree and many attachment wounds, potentially there, as well for people. Jo: Yeah, well let's take a pause there. So welcome back everybody to our affect regulation and working with couples Jane, I was just thinking about a dilemma. So I wonder what your thoughts are on, you're working with a couple and they're online, they're not in the same building, they're both remotely and sort of 35 minutes into the session one of the couple gets themselves so wound up that they say right that's it and I'm going and I'm leaving and they press the exit on the zoom and you're left with the other partner what would be your way of working with that Jane Brown: Yeah and I think this is a really common one actually and I'm really glad that you've brought this one. So the important thing to remember here is that our client is the couple and if we carry on a conversation with the person that's left we leave ourselves open for Jo: Mm-hmm. Jane Brown: a potential boundary issues. So perhaps a secret might be revealed or even just carrying on that conversation. We may lose neutrality. So we have to remember that the client is the couple. So what I would do in that situation is I would explain that I'm going to end this session for now. I would obviously check in to make sure the person I've got with me is OK. I would also explain to them that I'm going to contact the partner and just make sure that they are OK as well. And then what I would do is when we come back together is talk about what happened and perhaps re-contract around what... is going to happen what would they each like to do if either of them becomes dysregulated so we might bring that safe word intercession for example and actually model that and use that Jo: Yeah, I was just wondering if that has happened, if we notice that that particular partner starts to emotionally escalate in another session, whether we might just say, like you were saying earlier, let's just pause and reconnect. to mitigate that situation happening again if we know their kind of attachment defence is to leave, is to flee. Jane Brown: Yes, 100%. So we are using our sense of attunement, there, aren't we? We're really noticing, especially, I would say, towards the end of a session. As we know, endings are triggers within themselves, especially from an attachment perspective. So we really need to be tuning in at that point. And as you say, Jo, perhaps directing and just noticing and calming and slowing the couple. Jo: Yeah, and if you're new to couples work that will be quite a different concept wouldn't it to direct particularly if we're more sort of person-centred in our approach so it might feel quite uncomfortable for us as therapists to be a bit more directive. Jane Brown: Yes, I think you're absolutely right. And that definitely comes with experience and it comes with confidence and, it comes through supervision as well. having that, having that confidence, isn't it really? And that presence and that. But, know, what we're doing is we're constantly keeping our clients in mind. Jo: Thank Jane Brown: what would be the best intervention, that I could use right now for this couple. Jo: what's going to benefit the most at this in this particular moment and I guess it's also isn't it about helping you're saying earlier sort of tying this back up about the window of tolerance your defense is to flee that's what's kept you safe you know I totally get that that's your strategy your chosen strategy but actually I wonder what that then leaves in its way. What's the downside of that strategy? Because I guess when one person leaves, the other person is then, and particularly if there's abandonment in their strategy, then you've got two affects on the bubble again. One's left to look after themselves, but the other one's left feeling abandoned. Jane Brown: Yes, you you're absolutely right there. So, and what I loved about your, where you started that was about your soothing. So you were kind of soothing, the, the defence and you were naming it, but in a very soothing way, but then almost gently, gently challenging, to say, you know, what change might look like perhaps. Jo: Yeah, I know for a lot of couples that happens a lot. One leaves and the other one feels abandoned and then they have no real strategy of getting back because the affect is just too great. it is Almost like re-parenting in a way. That's our job, isn't it? As a couples therapist. Jane Brown: It is. It is. It is reparenting. it's kind of enabling that rupture and that repair. And it's about being the secure base for both of them. Jo: Mm. I love that being the secure base for both of them. Thank you, Jane. I can't thank you enough for talking to us about your experiences with couples therapy. And if you're a counselor and you would like to know more about attachment or working with couples at level five and level seven diplomas, cover attachment based psychotherapy. therapy and you can find full details at OptimaHealthServices.co.uk. That's also where you can download your CPD certificate for the time spent listening to this podcast today and this is available for all of our episodes. there's a link in the show notes. Jane, a huge thank you to you and to everybody who's joined us today on Attach Together and we hope to see you and everyone else again soon. Jane Brown: Thank you, Joe.