Kiah: and welcome to Attach Together, the podcast where we explore attachment theory and what it really means to practice. Hello and welcome to Attach Together, the podcast where we explore attachment theory and what it really means in practice for counsellors, psychotherapists and psychologists. The podcast was created, ⁓ no. Darren: It's like this is where you don't have to start from the beginning every time because you can just really add in the middle words. Kiah: I know, yeah. The podcast is created by the team at Optima who deliver the level five and level seven diplomas in attachment-based psychotherapy. It's a space designed to help you deepen your understanding, reflect on your clinical work and stay connected to the heart of attachment informed practice. I'm Kiah a mum of two little ones, aged three and one. I edit the podcast and work alongside Darren and the team at Optima. After listening back to all of the previous episodes, I'll be honest, I'm concerned. Darren, can you help me make sense of all of this? Darren: Well can try, mean no promises but we can try can't we? Kiah: Thank Yes, I think for parents, potentially parents that are listening to previous episodes, may be a little concerned that they're doing everything wrong. Or maybe not necessarily doing everything wrong, but want to steer away from kind of falling down a rabbit hole. What should we talk about first, Aaron? Darren: Okay, so, this is obviously gonna be a slightly different episode, not least because I'm not presenting, but also a slightly different focus. So, why don't we start with the fact that actually you don't need to worry and you can get it wrong more than you get it right. Kiah: Yeah. Do you want to start? If I cut that bit out, do you want to start with that? Darren: No, we're just going to carry on. It's all fine, Keir. So we, if we look at, so Winnicott spoke about the good enough mother. Now Winnicott may or may not be a name that you recognise. Kiah: Yeah. Yes it is because thankfully I also do all of our coursework slides so I'm also learning a lot as I work my way through building all of our course materials. Darren: Mm-hmm. Okay, so you're quite au fait with all the theorists then. Okay, well that's a start, that is a start. So Winnicott, this isn't quite what he meant, but you know what, it's good enough for me, so I'm gonna stick with it. I remember, so as I've maybe mentioned before, I'm a foster carer. And so... Kiah: I know their names. Darren: Unlike being an ordinary parent whereby you just go and... copulate and then nine months later a baby springs out because it's that simple. When you're a foster carer you have to go on quite a bit of training before you're even approved to be a foster carer and I remember on that training, so it's called skills to foster or foundations to foster and they mention the thirds of getting it right and wrong. So you... As a parent, you're looking at getting it right about a third of the time ⁓ and meeting the child's needs. A third of time you can just get it wrong and actually that's just one of those things and what we're building there is resilience in the child and then the other third of the time you're getting it wrong but then you're going back and making it right and repairing it. And if you think of parenting in those thirds, you will have raised quite a well adjusted, well attached child. ⁓ It's that simple. Kiah: Do you know what, that is such a wonderful way to think about parenting because when you listen to a lot of what we talk about on the podcast, it's all very much focused on getting it right all of the time. It's almost how it feels. And I feel like you could really take, it can be quite discouraging when you're concerned that you're not getting it right all of the time, but actually to hear that it's quite, you you are building resilience when you're getting it wrong. And there is a point where actually a third of time, if you are getting it wrong, you're going back and correcting it. And then obviously if you're getting it right a third of the time, then that's brilliant. But it's the third of where you're getting it wrong and going back and correcting it is really where what we talk about is impactful, I think. Darren: Hmm. ⁓ Kiah: So yeah, that's really, really interesting and actually such a wonderful thing to think as a parent, you know what, I've got the authority to get it wrong and everyone gets it wrong. Darren: Not only that, you can get it wrong twice as much as you get it right. Kiah: Oh, and I think most parents feel like that probably 90 % of the time. But yeah, think that sometimes it can be quite daunting as a parent. obviously, I am a parent and a non qualified therapist. You know, I have no learning in any of this. And we like, you know, most of our listeners will have some learning. However, they will also be parents themselves and trying to analyze your own parenting is far different than analyzing someone else's parenting. you might be, anyone could be sat there thinking, this is heavy and I've got anyone with young kids particularly at the moment that's maybe listening to our podcast could feel a little bit overwhelmed by the information that they're being given. Darren: And if you're going to analyze anyone's parenting, if I were to look at this through the eyes of attachment, I'd analyze your parents' parenting. And then what you tend to find... is you'll fall into one of two camps. You'll either think I'm gonna copy them completely or much of what they did, I like the way they raised me, or you're gonna think, actually no, I'm gonna do it completely opposite. And sometimes we then overcorrect and we can go too far the other way and the pendulum just swings between. So if you can take the time to really investigate, well, what was it that I think did go well within parenting and then what was it that didn't? and then kind of apply some of those lessons through. ⁓ through the filter of 2026. So when I was a child, smartphones weren't even a thing. mean, I, yeah, I think they came in after I was even married. So the whole idea of online dating and online world and a profile, it's just, it's completely not known to me at all. have no ability to understand quite what the online world means to the children. I'm raising from the point of view of how I was parented. So I need to be very open-minded in making my judgments and then making my decisions based on what happened in the past. However, actually, were you a family that ⁓ did things together or were you a family that did things separately? And as an adult, do you want to either replicate or do the opposite? Now for some people, They might feel like actually I found my family really stifling. We did everything together and Actually, I want to allow my children to have more independence or you might think ⁓ it's brilliant We did stuff together and I felt like I really belonged or on flip side of that you might think it was brilliant I was really able to like develop my independence Or you might think you know left on my own too much and I missed out on having a family So there's no right or wrong in any of this but if you can sit and look at what you feel like you benefited from and what maybe you lacked in your own childhood. That's going to give you a pretty good understanding of what's going to be driving you. And it's about making the unconscious conscious so you can then make an informed decision. if your patterns play out in terms of, I don't know, maybe you were a child who didn't really have them, needs met in the moment and so you've developed quite an undercurrent of avoidance within the way you operate. Well actually if you're really aware that you're an avoidant person then maybe you're going to have to go over and above to work against that to meet your child's in certain moments. You know when the baby's really crying you might feel like well I just want to walk out of the room and leave it. someone else actually maybe need to kind of fight against that urge and stay in the room and hold the baby and help them soothe. Kiah: That's so interesting. And that's really interesting to put it in that perspective of when the baby's crying, what is your first reaction? Because I think for me as well, what's been really interesting listening to all the previous episodes of the podcast is trying to figure out, I wonder what maybe my attachment style is. And I know that that is something that we explore in our training that we provide. But obviously, as someone that is not trained, ⁓ it's very interesting to try and understand it so yes it's interesting to put it in that sort of example of what is your initial reaction to do you know mine is to immediately go and pick baby up and and sort of you know figure out what's going on but you know that's that's that is obviously not going to be everyone's initial instinct Darren: And just because that's your instinct in that moment, that doesn't mean you're not an Avoidant ⁓ So yeah, for every single, I mean, I've picked out the most kind of basic, obvious example of meeting a child's needs ⁓ but. ⁓ Kiah: No, no. Darren: Actually, yeah when when it comes to ⁓ Sex education and you've got your ten-year-old at primary school and they're the chat for the first time and they come home and ask questions actually I use someone that is disgusted by that I use someone that is really keen to enable and equip And therefore take the competition further than the child might be ready for since I could have picked up any day of being a parent and picked Kiah: Hmm. Darren: it's an example. ⁓ So I think it's interesting you say about you'd love to know what your attachment style is or you'd like, you know, to kind of label that. And When I think about the course that we deliver at Optima so we're looking at a level five. So we are training people who are already qualified counselors and psychotherapists in all modalities. So the brilliant thing about Attachment based psychotherapy is that it can blend with CBT just as well as it can with person-centered or the other modalities even. young and approach or whatever it is you're coming from that it can blend in it's a toolbox and an understanding now If you are already a qualified counselor or psychotherapist, you might expect that you would know your attachment style because you'd have looked at that already. Actually, what's really evident every single year this course is taught is that people arrive on that course believing their one thing and they leave seeing it very differently than how they arrived. So actually your understanding of your own attachment can vary and change even with ⁓ qualified professionals. So it is the fascinating part of the course and the course I guess has I really like it because there's two prongs to every single lesson. There's the what am I learning in theory that I can apply to my clients and what am I learning about myself and my own life and that would be why we do two presentations. One is a presentation on how you've used the work ⁓ with in a case study with a client and the other presentation is looking at your own life through an attachment focus. So they're very much those two prongs to the year of training. Kiah: great course what a great way to set you up into practice let's draw it back to let's draw back to technology because we were talking we were gonna we were we were very much going down that route to talk about technology and I think for me I Darren: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kiah: did not grow up with readily available technology smartphones I was just on the cusp of before those things started to become readily available I think my first phone was a Nokia that you had to press the button three two to three times to get to the left wanted so I also did not so I do but I have then grown up with technology so I feel like I am well equipped to understand you know how technology Darren: Yeah. Kiah: can impact a childhood. I initially, when I was a first time parent, I had extremely strict views on screen time and I think that's because it had been imposed on me. There's a lot of on social media, there's a lot of guilt around, ⁓ know, children shouldn't be, you know, plonked in front of a television screen, no screen time before the age of one. And I took that really seriously. My first child had absolutely categorically zero, zero screen time until she was one years old and and then even when she turned one year old you know they were we very much focused on low Darren: that life stimulus. Kiah: very calming programs ⁓ and as she's older you know she's near on three now ⁓ and well so just over three now ⁓ and she ⁓ know she her favorite programs that she likes to watch ⁓ and she is very busy child ⁓ you know she goes to preschool so she is ⁓ all day playing is all day ⁓ busy, no screen time whatsoever. And when she gets home, she can sometimes be very tired. She just wants to chill out. And actually, me myself, when I just want to chill out, I sit and watch an hour or so of television. And I decided that actually it didn't do me any harm, which is probably not. the right mentality to have, but it is the mentality that I sort of took that actually I used to watch telly when I was a kid and it didn't do me any harm, I'm fine. And actually, yes, she does, know, she doesn't sit and watch television all day long, because that's ridiculous and she would even get bored of that. But you know, there are evenings where she will come home and she will watch television. And now my second, because she's grown up with a TV screen on and it's, know, if my oldest one is watching television, the littler one may well be in the room with the television on. She couldn't care less about the television being on and... she will just play and ignore what's on the television, doesn't care. It couldn't distract her, even if I wanted it to, it couldn't distract her. And now I think, why did I? put so much pressure on myself to not allow any screen time because of all the outside noise that actually had I maybe just been a little bit more relaxed about it, I wouldn't have felt such guilt when she, I did put in front of the television. Do you see where I'm going? Darren: See now that get word is really interesting isn't it? And immediately my mind goes to, okay so there's an element of you that has taken other people's opinions and at first you'd given those a higher authority than your own instinct. Maybe. So ⁓ what I think I'm hearing from you is actually you now are relaxing into what your own opinion is, which is, do you know, a bit of TV in the mix of the whole day of being busy and occupied isn't the end of the world. ⁓ And rather than listening to the voices that say no TV at all, actually you're learning to listen to your own internal voice on that. there's so if I were to look at that, that's the exact opposite of being avoidant. That seems really ⁓ that ambivalent nature of I need to make sure that I'm getting it right by everyone else's standards for me to know that I'm okay. Kiah: think that's a huge thing for first time parents. Well, some, some, sorry. I think that's a huge thing for some first time parents, especially my experience of the mums that I have met. Darren: That's some stum, that's their parents. Kiah: I'm in that world of baby classes, everything like that. Everyone's trying to be, you feel like everyone is trying to be the perfect. social media, Instagram, mother who's doing it all. Their kids are eating everything and anything that is healthy. don't have any, no sweets, no chocolate, ⁓ no television. The kids are always outdoors playing and that's the image that you are is pushed in front of you from social media to mothers. And sometimes when you listen to and particularly when you listen to some of the things that we speak about on the podcast, it does kind of fit with that perfect mother image of, know, we should constantly be gazing at our child while you're breastfeeding. That's not practical. I've breastfed both of my children. I can't gaze into their eyes every single time I do a feed. That's ridiculous. You can't have that. That is, it's not practical. Again, you know, I think we talked on one episode about... ⁓ Going out to dinner and some the parents had put a screen or a phone on for the kid while they were eating and I've been in that situation a hundred times and Again in my child's first year of life my first child's year life. No, no, no TV. No screen We would sit at that didn't you know out for dinner and it would be not Sometimes it would be completely not enjoyable because even myself or my husband we didn't get to speak to each other whatsoever because we're focused on entertaining our child which is wonderful and lovely but sometimes parents also need a bit of a break but that break may involve taking the child with them so I think sometimes for me what I've listened to on the podcast is ⁓ you've got that perfect mother image and then you hear some things on the podcast that they kind of always back that up and I think ⁓ my god am I doing everything wrong? Darren: We're back to the third thing, aren't we? So if every day you allow your child to sit and use a smart device whilst they're eating their dinner, then that is gonna have a consequence. That child is gonna require a dopamine hit every two seconds in order to have a calm and peaceful dinner. Now if you're only doing that every now and again, then... obviously the impact of that is greatly reduced. So it's about striking a balance, remembering the winnicots' thirds but also, so I understand what you mean about the gazing with the breastfeeding, however... We, as parents, again, we make choices. And I would say this example extends at any life stage. So I've never breastfed a child and I never will. But actually, I know the interruption that a smartphone can have on paying attention to a child in the room. And I wonder how many... ⁓ people might choose to scroll on social media rather than engage with their child. And actually, although I understand it's not practical to always gaze lovingly at your child for every moment of breastfeeding, actually, I wonder, and I've got no evidence, but I've seen it happen, whereby people are sat sort of aimlessly scrolling at their phone. Well, that's not essential. And so again, maybe some of the choices that we're making are, okay, in this moment, I'm going to offer my attention to my child. yeah, like, I like of older children, actually, ⁓ sometimes, like, so play is really important. And I think our children don't always know how to play now. That's partly because we, helicopter parenting is the current in favour method of parenting. children have less opportunity to learn from other children because parents swoop in at the first sign of any kind of argument or conflict. Or maybe there's a lot of, you know, if you've got like ⁓ a child that's on their own, like maybe a single one. child in a family. So how often are parents getting down on their hands and knees and building Lego with the kids and how often are they ⁓ playing a computer game with them? Because actually the quality of interaction on both of those is really essential. It's easy to let a child just sit and play a game on their own but there's no reason that you know actually we're not looking at what We're not looking at exactly what you have to do to engage with your child. Just engage with your child. Kiah: Yeah. Yeah and again like you say when it goes back to your you know the thirds and finding a balance because yes there is obviously a point where you are you know I lovingly sit and build with my child's magnetic tiles in fact I probably get far too into it and I actually get rather ⁓ possessive over my towers that I build however you know there are times that I then have to cook dinner or somewhere in the house needs a clean and you do need your to play on their own. I totally agree, know, if I was to be sat on the sofa scrolling social media while my kids sat playing on the floor on their own, that's a completely different matter. Again, sometimes some parents need that five minutes to themselves. Darren: That's what I was about say, even that. that, you know, if you can't, for whatever reason, you can't leave your child physically on their own. So you can't then go and have some space on your own. Actually, a mental mind break of five minutes, you know, calling a friend or something, engaging with the real world, that can be just as important as, you know, actually the time in with the child. But... Kiah: ⁓ for sure, we all need that. Darren: Maybe what we can do in those scenarios is set a child up on a task. know, actually most children, once they're up and running in something, they'll happily run with it. So if you could start the colouring in together and you do it side by side and then you slowly kind of pull back and the child's there doing their own task in their own way. You you can then go and cook the dinner or be in the same room or have a conversation. So I don't think anyone should be putting themselves under pressure to do any one thing, but I would like everyone to put themselves under pressure to do everything. And little bits of all sorts all the time, every day. So Kate Silverton in her book, No Such Thing as Naughty, speaks about Kiah: Yeah. Darren: Our brains are a bit like, so you figure your brain like a tree that grows and develops and then the animals within the tree. So she speaks about the fact that we're born with a reptile that knows how to breathe and it knows it needs to eat and it can, you know, meets its kind of really basic needs. But then... At the age of one we start to realise that there's also a baboon in the tree and that baboon runs around free, ⁓ is keen to bond, keen to play and then the last animal we notice in the tree is the wise owl and at any stage of parenting we're looking to bring online all three parts of that animalistic brain within us. So we've got the reptilian brain that we're born with, then we're looking at all the upper levels of the brain as we would refer to them and bringing them all online. what we're looking for with brain development is to create as many links as possible. So the work that you do with your child, ⁓ will help them to engage with the world. And the more they engage with the world, the more links and neural pathways they build. And actually, it's not about building up the separate parts, it's about building up the links between those parts. For example, a child who never develops the wise owl, but they have the reptilian part of their brain that calls out like, ⁓ my God, I'm in danger, I better scurry off. And then the baboon part of brain which is like I'm beating my chest and I'm making myself know that I'm not happy that's when we look at tantrum behaviour. Now some people don't always actually grow out of that behaviour and that might be because they've never been shown and they had time to develop their wise out and so within her book Kate Silverton speaks about the methods that you can bring that out into action and that's all through interaction externally to develop that internally and that can come in in any number of ways but it just needs to come in. Kiah: it sounds like a great book and definitely one that should be read Darren: Well, and the brilliant thing about that book is there's a second one called Still No Such Thing as Naughty. And in each book, she does reflect on her own children in that life stage. So Still No Such Thing as Naughty is basically secondary, is primary school aged children from that kind of five to 11. Her children are growing up even beyond that now. So I'm hoping that there'll soon be a teen version of that book, which I think could be the greatest one within the set if it were to come out because actually you're looking at a huge amount of brain pruning, brain changing and to understand how that part of life can be navigated through her accessible definitions with the animals would be really useful for many parents. Kiah: So if we're looking at tips of how to engage all three parts of the brain, we suggest go and have a read of the, there's no such thing as naughty. Darren: Yeah, and engaging, just engage within your child's life. Get messy, get down on your hands and knees, go out jumping puddles together, have a laugh together. Find the child within yourself and have fun with your child. Kiah: of one of my favorite memories with my eldest is it was, it had been a lovely sunny day. and we we'd just come in because the weather looked like it was going to change and it just absolutely torrentially poured it down and my eldest really really wanted to go back in the garden and I thought to myself I thought why not ⁓ I you know the smell of rain on on the ground when it has been really sunny and it rains and it's that that real smell that it's just so unique yeah Darren: That petrified smell. Kiah: and I was like, yeah, let's do it. So we went out and we actually danced in the rain and I thought this is so cheesy and if I saw myself probably through a window I thought what a crazy person but it is one of my absolute all-time favorite memories of being a parent because it just I was just the biggest kid with my child who was just having the best time and I doubt I don't even know if she remembers she may may not but I think that's one that will stick with me and I say it Darren: This is. Kiah: It's just making it fun. Darren: Yeah, and you say around, don't know she remembers, there's two ways of remembering. There's remembering ⁓ a memory, a story, maybe for someone who's visual, they can literally picture back to that moment. But there's also that somatic memory of just knowing that you're at one or you're at ease within your own body. And all of those moments are what builds up to create a body that feels ⁓ at ease and connected with the world, who feels safe, who knows that they have a secure base. It sounds to me like your child knows if there's fun to be had you can be there to provide it and that's really lovely even if she doesn't know that memory she'll have that sense of safety and fun with you and all those micro moments all build up and that's what creates a safe secure child. Kiah: Yeah, that's fascinating, isn't it? All the micro moments, because things that maybe don't seem like big moments to you, as you say, resonate within the child. yeah, and I have my fair share of moments where I don't provide the fun and I don't cope as well as I would have liked to. And I do reflect back on those moments. And I think, I wish I had done it differently in the time. But at the time, you just, you're brain is offline and you know you're potentially in some form of survival mode particularly after potentially you know your second child is born for mothers you know hormones are here there and everywhere and you you don't control your emotions as you would always wish so there is always that concern and it's not just when you've had a second child you know it can happen to anybody that has got a singular child as well Darren: Thank Kiah: you do think back to moments where you think, really wish I had handled that differently. And I think that for me is sometimes where I become concerned where I'm like, did I in that looking at the thirds, I did something right, I've done something wrong, and I've done something when I'm correcting it, am I correcting it in the right way? Darren: Yeah, I see part of me, I have two answers for this, because actually how amazing to have that critical ⁓ reflective time and to think, okay, what worked well, what didn't. And when I think about my career as a foster carer, that's essential that you sit and you unpick and you take ownership and you own up it. But what I... would encourage people to do is to do that in a really non-judgmental, kind way. And so maybe when you're having that conversation with yourself or someone else, really consider what would you reply to your best friend with? So that you just to make sure you're not being overly critical of yourself, because in its own way that will then cause further doubt next time. Actually, you need to empower yourself that it's okay, that that wasn't great. ⁓ you know, what would I do differently next time so that I can feel better about it? But rather than this, ⁓ God, I'm really, I can't trust myself. Actually, it sounds to me like you can. We all have these moments. And I think being aware of your own attachment drivers. maybe you've got a disorganized attachment and actually some days you're going to feel very close and capable and in other days you're going to feel very distant from your child and ⁓ that's going to also be extremely so think about the support network that you have around you to help you unpick those moments and to help you understand what's going on for you what your drivers are. ⁓ Just because you operate in a certain way doesn't mean your child will. And that I think is really worth remembering. Kiah: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think I'm personally as a parent, I'm in a fortunate position. I'm surrounded by people that really know what they're talking about. So I have got a fortunate position where if I have a dilemma or a difficulty, I do have a network of people that I could reach out to. And hopefully people that are listening have got the same or if not, they have got some really good Darren: Mm-hmm. Kiah: therapists in their area. Darren: Well maybe seek out a parenting group and actually although there's a lot of stuff online that can make us feel rubbish there's also some places online where we can find our our kin and what we need so be selective over the groups that you join online but actually I've seen some really lovely ones so I'm being in a couple of like I haven't been on them in years because who uses Facebook anymore? But I what used to when I first started fostering was in like a couple of really lovely support groups for foster carers. You people on there who've been doing it 20 years and you have people on there who've been doing it 20 weeks and you were able to kind of ask those questions and Kiah: Yeah. Darren: get an answer or just seek some reassurance or even maybe just have a flick through and you don't even need to put anything on there. You can see that you're not the only one that feels the way you do and sometimes that's just enough. It's just enough to feel heard and understood. Kiah: Mm. Do you think as somebody who's more informed Darren, do you think you maybe analyse your parenting a bit more than maybe the usual parent would just thinking about listeners that are, you know, ⁓ potentially attachment informed or wanting to have more attachment information and are also, you know, qualified therapists or counselors. Do you think that those people are more prone to analysing their own parenting? Darren: I think that could probably work either way. So I think there's that sense of, okay, I've done the analyzing, done the work, I've looked internally, I'm fairly confident in who I am and what I have to offer and maybe where my gaps are and then what I can work on and or where I'll seek that external support. And actually, probably, yeah, there may be even less self reflection in the moments because actually you're able to understand what's taking place. without overly ruminating. But there's that other side of us that's trained to be reflective, to make the implicit explicit, to understand what's going on. And for families where there's two parents, it can be really useful to sit and have a conversation every now and again just about how things are going. Have a bit of a family audit, what's worked well lately and why. And the one thing, so... ⁓ My oldest foster child had additional needs. And so a lot of things we used to just put down to, I think it's that. And so what would work one day wouldn't work another. And then we started fostering children without additional needs. And we were like, ⁓ no, what works one day doesn't work on another. And actually it's really easy to think that you understand it or that you have all the answers and then something will come along and ⁓ flip that. And you think, ⁓ didn't know as much as I thought I did. And being open to that level of self-reflection. Kiah: Thank Darren: and external feedback is really important and the external feedback may be warned of false profits and all of that but people have been raising children for many many years and there's lots to learn from those people that have done it before and maybe that's advice that you wouldn't want to take and maybe it is the only way you'll know that is to reflect on it internally. Kiah: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Like you say, you know, there are people that have been raising children for many years, far, far longer than myself. I am in a very fortunate position where I have... both sets of my children's grandparents in very close proximity. And I learn so much from them all the time, constantly. you know, yeah, and back to that thinking about your own childhood and then seeing also my children interact with my parents and or my husband's parents. I do think there are things that I will take and there are things that I will leave. But I probably take a far more amount than what I leave. because experience and I see the results of their parenting and I must say my husband he is a lovely guy and I think well he's obviously been raised in the right way and well I don't do too badly myself and I would say my parents did a pretty decent job their side so I do yeah I do take far more than I probably leave I just I feel very fortunate to be in that position. I know, you know, there are many families aren't in that position. Darren: Yeah. I mean you're fortunate in both ways. You're fortunate in that you have plenty of advice coming and plenty of stuff that you see modeled in front of you you'd copy and yeah, also fortunate in that you reflect positively on your own upbringing and where you are now. For those that don't necessarily have that level of feedback around them, think that the ABC of behavior can be really useful for parents. So when you're saying about like, you know, reflect on things, what do we actually mean? What ⁓ is a good way to reflect? So ⁓ the ABC kind of gives you a framework for that. So the A is a really rubbish word. It's antecedent, but that... So we could call it the CBC. it's the antecedent means the cause. What was the cause of the behavior? Then the B is what's the behavior you see. And then. C for consequence, what's the consequence? So actually if you were reflecting back on why does my child keep doing this certain thing that you don't want them to do, well there might be that they're spitting, so you have a child that keeps spitting. Well actually the behaviour is the spitting. Let's look at what's going on before. What was happening before they started spitting? Well, maybe they have a speech impediment or maybe they have a delayed speech. So we can look at all the reasons that might be that they want to verbally use their mouth, but actually they can't use it in the way that we might want them to. And then the consequence is that they get some relief from spitting because for whatever reason they can't verbalize what it they want to say but they're able to release something. Equally it could be you know the behaviour is that they get ready for school really well in the morning. Well, the antecedent of that is that they really like being at school. And so the consequence is if they behave well and get ready really quickly, then they get to go to school quicker. So the ABC works on both sides. So look at their behaviour and then look at what was happening before and then look at what the consequence was after. And that gives you a framework to understand your child's inner world. Kiah: so interesting and so interesting. My brain is kind of like popping off thinking ⁓ like so many things. One big, big thing for me and for many, many, many ⁓ parents that I speak to, you know, in the school, in the school playground, kids clubs, anything like that. It's very much around dinner time. Dinner time always, always, always seems to be the main sticking point for parents where it's just, ⁓ I hate dinner time. And the amount of parents I speak to that feel the same and you know, it's really interesting to try and understand what is it about dinner time that is such a challenge. ⁓ One for parents, but also why do so many children seem to play up at dinnertime and trying to think of the ABCs to that. Darren: So when you say play up, can you consider a behavior? Kiah: My child, and I can obviously only kind of go, I've spoken about with other parents and there's do similar, but my child in particular will basically do anything other than sit and eat her dinner at the table. So, you know, I need a wee wee, I need water, wants to get up to feed her younger sibling, anything to avoid. eating her own dinner. ⁓ Darren: Okay, so the behaviour So, okay, well then, so we need to go both forwards and backwards. So what's going on before and what, know, so she doesn't want to eat. What's the setup? What would she normally be doing before eating? Would she be playing, watching TV? Kiah: But then why? It could be typically either because obviously dinner is after coming home from a day at preschool, so it could be sat watching television. This is interesting. Or she could be playing. It's actually really anytime. Darren: so she's doing something of her choice and her liking. And then when you start dinner time, does the TV go off? Do you move her somewhere different? Okay, so if you, what do you, what's your favorite show Kiah on the tele? Kiah: ⁓ yeah, more than likely. yes no television goes off at dinner time what's my favorite show? Gilmore Girls Darren: Okay, right, so you're watching Gilmore Girls, ⁓ Netflix drops a new series, ⁓ you're halfway through like the last episode of the series, because they're normally the best, aren't they? Like the final one. So, ⁓ and you're quarter of an hour in, and I just rock up, and I turn it off, and I drag you to a different room and ask you to do something that wasn't even on your radar. How you gonna feel? Kiah: Yep. I mean, put out for sure. Darren: Okay, I mean you, yeah, you can see where I'm heading with this. Kiah: I absolutely can see where you're heading and I feel like as a parent I've tried and tried to do you know I'll give her a warning I'll say right you know dinner time is in five minutes although my child would have no idea the length of what five minutes is I will say to you know dinner time is in five minutes you know we say right well pause the television and you can watch it tomorrow Darren: So you need to change the consequence here, Kiah So I wonder how both feasible it would be and how it would go to say we only have dinner, we only watch TV in this house once we've eaten our dinner. Now I'm not telling you that's what you should do. I'm just throwing out there as the most extreme example of ⁓ actually if we're looking to change the behaviour, then we need to change the consequence and the cause. Kiah: heavy. ⁓ And that is the stickler, it? Because I'm a creature of routine and we all are really. Pardon, as is my daughter. Yes. Yeah. And I think ⁓ the moment you said, you know, change, it's like, I know I need to do that. And I, in my brain can go, yes, I know I need to do that, but I don't want to. Darren: Mm-hmm. As is your daughter from the Sounds of Things. And that is, if you're in therapy, that would be an amazing place to start, to unpick it from that moment. yeah, maybe, yeah, have a look. But yeah, look, this is, and I'm pleased we're laughing because actually, we can make the everyday like. Kiah: you So I need to go on our therapist directory. Darren: We can over pathologise, we can really... It's about choices, isn't it? And it's just about... if there's a behaviour that we really don't like, then we need to look at it. And the other thing to consider is when we're raising children as old as yours are, actually, there's a whole load about them that we don't yet know. So, who knows what the drivers are and understanding them? And sometimes... Kiah: Yeah. Darren: Choosing the path of least resistance in one area means that you can then really focus in on another and I think that's okay. Kiah: I'm going to test it out tonight Darren. going to set her up so she can sit in the kitchen and cook with me and we'll see how dinner time goes and I'll report back. Darren: question. Okay, yeah, maybe I'll turn my phone off later. But yeah, think it's, there's a lot to be positive about with regards to attachment and raising children. And we know more now than we did. Kiah: Yeah. Darren: The whole we're learning stuff all the time. I mean, it's only two years ago I heard the term epigenetics for the first time and now there's an awful lot known about that. Maybe that's a podcast episode in its own right We'll put that one down for series two. But yeah, there's you know, ⁓ be open-minded be reflective But reflects on yourself as much as a child. I think that would be my takeaway for this Kiah: Thank Yeah, and I think ⁓ right at the very start, Darren, you hit the nail on the head with the three... ⁓ Darren: Yeah, with the thirds, winning courts first. Yeah. Kiah: it with the thirds and I think for any parents out there that are listening that for me is a really nice way to think about actually I don't need to be perfect 100 % of the time as long as I'm you know as and when maybe getting things wrong doing the best to try and put them right in the right way. Sometimes we won't always know what that right way is, but keep listening to the podcast or come and do our Level 7, Level 7 and you will know. Darren: ⁓ you've lined that up perfectly. Yeah, we're working on season two now. We'll be back before you know it. Kiah: Yes, I'm very excited for season two. Season two is going to be a little bit different to season one. We're mixing things up a little bit. So it will be just as informative, but a little bit different to how season one was run. So we hope that it brings everybody joy as it has done. New and improved. Darren: New and improved, I think we'll say here. New and improved. Thank you for having me on to have this conversation today. I'm hoping you're feeling a little bit better now. Kiah: Well, thank you, Darren, for the free therapy session. It's been fantastic. No, I have. And I think I think it's been really interesting to have a chat and to sort of talk through a couple of examples. think there's hundreds of things out there that parents are concerned and worried about that potentially we may talk about on our podcast that maybe. make you feel like you're doing everything wrong but actually just keeping in mind that you don't have to do it right 100 % of the time. Darren: soon. Kiah: doesn't mean that you're going to cause incontrollable, uncontrollable consequences. Darren: And the reality is that as adults we sit in our therapy room and sometimes we mention our parents and in 20 years time or 30 or 40 years time your children will be sat in a therapist room and they'll be having a chat about you too and that's just the natural order of life. Kiah: Yes, definitely. ⁓ brilliant, thank you Darren. Darren: You're welcome. Yeah, do you want to do do you want to do an ending about qualifications and options? I would just say here, ⁓ as we've mentioned, we will be back soon with season two, so stay subscribed. As usual, you can find the CPD certificate at optimahealthservices.co.uk. Kiah: That's fine because I'll put that snippet bit up at the end because I've got that to be recorded. Okay. Thank you all for listening to our conversation today. We hope that you found it interesting coming from a parent's point of view. As usual, you can find the CPD certificate link. No, I don't need to say that bit. Darren: Yes. But you could just say it because it's in my voice otherwise and you're presenting. Kiah: Where is the CPD link? ⁓ in the show notes. Darren: Yes, so it's shown on Spotify or at OptimalHealthServices.co.uk Kiah: As usual, you can find the CPD certificate link in the show notes for Spotify or head over to our website www.optimahealthservices.co.uk Darren: See you later. Kiah: Yeah. How was that? I think I'm gonna have quite a bit of editing to do. Darren: It will be. Yeah, I don't I think not as much as you think. Like we've recorded for 55 minutes. Kiah: Yeah, I feel like the second portion was probably a lot more, once we got into it. I think it was it was always going to be bit of a see where it see where it goes. Darren: Yeah. me stop.