Darren: Hi there and welcome to Attach Together, the podcast where we explore all things attachment theory for counselors, psychotherapists and psychologists. Created by the team at Optima, providers of the level five and level seven diplomas in attachment-based psychotherapy, this podcast is your space to deepen your understanding, reflect on your practice stay connected to the heart of attachment-informed work. I'm a BACP accredited person centre counsellor and an attachment based psychotherapist in private practice well as hosting this podcast I teach level 5 courses at Optima. I'm a foster carer so I see attachment from many angles and hopefully feel that today too when you listen to our episode ⁓ which now with a CPD certificate. ⁓ All you to do is head to our website ⁓ or the notes at the end of the episode. Joining me today is Georgina Sturmer. Georgina is back with us she's a BACP accredited psychotherapist, supervisor lecturer in attachment to psychotherapy ⁓ at Hi Georgina, it's nice to have you back And today you've chosen to look at the point where attachment meets with supervision what drew you to this topic

Georgina: Hi Darren. I just think it's so fascinating that as therapists, obviously, we attend supervision as part of our ethical commitment our practice. ⁓ when we learn about supervision, we learn about all sorts of different things, don't we, in terms of how to prepare for supervision and how to get the most out of it. ⁓ what we don't often acknowledge is that supervision is really just as much of a relational space as therapy. ⁓ so I think it can be really fascinating to look at supervision from an attachment perspective.

Darren: That's a really fascinating setup for this discussion. mind is already flowing with ideas. Where we start with this? You've laid out so many different strands and pathways that we could take. Where should we start, Georgina? ⁓

Georgina: I guess a good starting point is actually the centre, maybe the heart of what we want supervision to be. ⁓ supervision... ⁓ we initially think about it when we're training, we're thinking about working with someone who's got all the answers, maybe someone who's got lots of experience who can guide us through ethical dilemmas. ⁓ what we know through all our work in attachment is that your supervisor really needs to be so much more than that. They need to offer ⁓ secure base and that safe haven. So that secure base where you can go out and explore the world and ⁓ make mistakes or try different things or be brave as a therapist. ⁓ also that safe haven somewhere where you can come and ⁓ your professional anxiety, talk about things that aren't going well and feel safe. And so we can already see that we're going from something that isn't, you know, something that feels like it's guidance from someone who's got lots of answers to actually a professional relationship of attunement, where we've got a supervisor who's attuned to what we need and where can feel as if we're being co-regulated ⁓ someone who really understands us and really cares about us.

Darren: It sounds really warm and safe and the way you describe it in those terms.

Georgina: And I think that's really important because in order to make the most out of supervision and in order for our clients to benefit from what we do in supervision, we have to feel safe because it's only when we feel safe that we can actually be brave think about what our blind spots are and explore things that aren't going that well and really, really reflect. ⁓

Darren: So specifically in terms of attachment theory, how does attachment theory influence supervision?

Georgina: So what we often see is that in the same way as how we might notice certain patterns in the therapy room or when our clients talk about their lives and their relationships, we will also notice certain patterns within the supervision room. And for me, that's a big light bulb moment when we start learning about supervision and how we apply it is that it's not just about the relationship between client and therapist. It's also about the relationship between supervisor and supervisee. so actually what we might find ⁓ we might have a supervisee who ⁓ is always seeking reassurance, they're always a bit worried about getting things wrong and they're always a bit sensitive to maybe the idea of being criticised and they might need something very different from a supervisee who... It's very intellectualised in the way they present themselves. It's quite dismissive of the idea of using supervision to explore their own feelings. And I guess what I'm trying to describe here supervisees from different attachment styles. So the difference between a who has maybe an anxious pattern ⁓ and supervisee who has an avoidant pattern. ⁓ Now, we understand these things about ourselves or if our supervisor understands these things about ourselves, ⁓ then really helpful because it helps us understand how we can make the most out of supervision and explore areas that might initially feel a bit uncomfortable.

Darren: And I'm now reflecting on supervision groups that I've been ⁓ member of in the past. ⁓ I've got the picture of both of those styles that you've just described. The one who looks a bit when... is given, almost taking that advice as a criticism, ⁓ equally the member of the group who really to reflect on what's playing out for them in the room. Not easy for a supervisor to work with those dynamics.

Georgina: No, and in those situations we're not just looking about a supervisor and a supervisee, are But we're looking at a system. In a way it's much more akin to couples therapy, I suppose. Not that we would ever think of group supervision as couples therapy. But the idea is that there's an attachment dance that is playing out in the room as well as maybe in the client material that we're discussing.

Darren: So does this then mean you would take a different approach with someone who presents as rather than ⁓ or secure?

Georgina: So in my view, the best way to approach this is to add attachment as like a lens through which we use our existing supervision approach and our existing supervision model. So if we take, for example, the functional model, ⁓ the three functions of supervision, which most of us are really familiar with from our training, the that we balance formative, normative, and restorative functions in supervision, ⁓ what might find is that a supervisee who comes across as maybe quite preoccupied, anxious, they will often feel very, very comfortable in the restorative function of supervision, that really holding, containing, supportive function. ⁓ they might feel less ⁓ in the more normative and restorative functions, maybe thinking about risk and accountability ⁓ about learning. ⁓ equally, if we have a dismissive or an avoidant supervisee, ⁓ might sit in different spaces. ⁓ so as a supervisor or as a supervisee who's thinking about wanting to make the most out of supervision, we can really stop and reflect and think, which of those functions do I find myself fitting in most comfortably? Which one do I shy away from and why? And it's the why that's really interesting because it's often that it's our attachment pattern that plays out in how we find ourselves feeling comfortable in supervision. And so as a supervisor or as someone trying to make the most out of supervision, it gives us a chance to really challenge ourselves. If we prefer to be in the restorative space, what would it be like to really focus on client material and something I'm a bit nervous about? Or if we shy away from that, what would it be like to come to my supervisor and actually talk about maybe something a bit personal or something a bit emotional that's holding me back at the moment?

Darren: So there's plenty of reflection that would go on then for the counsellor that's attending their supervision.

Georgina: Well, I think that's where the attachment lens comes in. You it stops us from just thinking about supervision as a space where we present our clients. And it starts... becoming a space where we can really think more widely. I think we often go on a bit of a journey with supervision, don't we? You many of us, when we start in our training, we attend supervision, or sometimes it's groups, sometimes it's one-to-one. And there's very much a focus, rightly so, ⁓ our clients. You know, we present our clients and we maybe get some tips on how to look after them better, or we think about what's gone wrong. ⁓ I think there's often a bit of a personal journey which comes as we become more experienced, where suddenly supervision becomes a bit wider. ⁓ can become a bit more about exploring the self. it can become a bit more about learning about themes and ideas and it becomes a bit more collaborative. You know, we become a bit more of an equal with our supervisor and I think that is where these attachment patterns sometimes start to play out even more.

Darren: Because we become more equal to our supervisor.

Georgina: And because that relational depth really builds, you we're no longer looking at them as this person who's got all the answers. We sometimes might even feel like we might be curious about challenging something that they come up with, or we might think differently. And so just noticing those patterns and, you know, do they feel familiar? Is that a pattern that also plays out when I'm the therapist? Is that a pattern that also plays out in my relationships outside of these rooms?

Darren: I tell you, ⁓ mind's gone to we're speaking quite a bit about the attachment ⁓ that we see within the counsellor. Does the attachment of the supervisor play a role within what happens in the room? I'm guessing it does.

Georgina: It absolutely does and what's so interesting is that it's something that is often very unspoken. And in fact during the level five that you and I both teach on, one of the many things that we ask ⁓ our students to look at is ⁓ they feel that their supervisory relationship plays out, you what is the dynamic between themselves and their supervisor? And might they approach that? How would they figure out what their supervisor's attachment style is? Would they feel comfortable to ask? ⁓ You it's a conversation I have had with my supervisees ⁓ where talked not just about, you know, the usual stuff we might be talking about about our clients, but also about ⁓ what's between the two of us? What is the dance that our attachment styles do? And once we know that dance, we can think, okay, well, what are the risks? You know, if we've got a pairing of two specific attachment styles in the supervision room, what might we miss? Because we're so busy being stuck in our own patterns. And it's those types of discussions that are just incredibly rich.

Darren: So I you had an avoidant supervisor and an avoidant counselor, maybe even speaking about an avoidant seems like a really risky place to be unself aware of that because if you're all avoiding the work ⁓ if all got the propensity to avoid ⁓ then seems like a ⁓ perfect for creating spots that go unchallenged.

Georgina: And that's exactly why this is so important. So if we think of that example, if we think about an avoidant supervisor with an avoidant supervisee, maybe even talking about an avoidant client, what we've probably got is a lot of people who are brilliant at thinking, who are really, really great at thinking, really great at intellectualizing. So we might be talking about psychoeducation, we might be delving into theory, all things that are going to be really interesting and really useful for our client work, but we're probably not going to be thinking about our feelings. Maybe we won't be really exploring the counter-transference and understanding what's going on in our body. Maybe we'll be a bit scared of pushing our client to really uncover what's underneath their thoughts. And it's in those moments when if we know about this attachment dance, we can just take a breath and we can say, hang on, I know what's happening here. We both have this propensity to be like this. The client is also like this. Let's think about what we're missing.

Darren: really like that and I'm assuming a different outcome but the similar would work if you had two counselors who were like anxious and ambivalent and preoccupied if you had a counselor and a supervisor that both fall into that I guess at point we would want to bring in a bit more logic ⁓ and theory ⁓

Georgina: exactly. You if we think about the stereotype at the opposite end of the spectrum, if you've got a preoccupied supervisor and a preoccupied supervisee, you've probably got two people who are in real need of reassurance from each other ⁓ maybe lots of feelings ⁓ actually ⁓ they would benefit from taking a step back and feeling a bit more secure and really thinking ⁓ talking about theory ⁓ pulling in some of the other practical things that we might need.

Darren: This just fascinates me I've got so many thoughts and questions on this that I could go on and on. But one thing I guess I'm wondering about is, when we ⁓ we're a counselor and we're starting up, maybe starting private practice or something, and we're looking for a new supervisor, how we take account of attachment processes we're selecting supervisor? Is it something you would discuss up before selecting.

Georgina: That's such an interesting question, isn't it? I suppose for me, it's something that feels probably quite subconscious. It's that sense of... Do I feel a sense of real safety with this person? And some of that might be because they've got all the training and they've got all the gear and their website looks really flashy. But a lot of that will be, you know, do I think I could come to this person with when I think something really challenging has happened, with when I'm feeling really unsure, really unsteady or something has happened in my personal life. Do I feel like they can be really holding and containing? Because that is at the core of, you know, supervision through an attachment lens. beyond that, absolutely we can start thinking about what's playing out between our attachment styles. what we're not saying is that, you know, if you are this attachment style, you should have a supervisor from this attachment style. We're not saying that. But what we are saying is, can our supervisor feel like a secure base for us? Because that's the most important thing, and that's actually different from whether or our supervisor has a secure attachment.

Darren: Okay ⁓ is isn't it and I can see where supervision has worked well and and I can actually see yes that ⁓ people who feel don't trust the processes and it takes quite a bit of courage sometimes to go to supervision and to look at these work and be honest and reflective so have that safety around it and i referring back to you've mentioned throughout about be open about attachment styles have that conversation with your supervisor ⁓ that also to me to be quite a courageous conversation to start it might feel a bit surprising for some may never have been asked that question before

Georgina: Yeah, absolutely, and it's part of building that real collegial relationship, I think, of two people who are working together in the best interests of the client. And then, you know, they've got different knowledge from each other, but neither of them is a pedestal or is superior. They're two people who are getting to know each other as best as they can.

Darren: Georgina, is there a takeaway from conversation, would you like that to be?

Georgina: I think this understanding that supervision is just as much of a relational spaces therapy ⁓ supervision is not just about improving our skills and learning more stuff. ⁓ about helping our supervisees or helping ourselves to just feel as secure and as possible ⁓ that they can practice in an ethical and reflective way.

Darren: That's fantastic. Thank you so much, Georgina. I hope it's a topic that maybe we revisit further down the line because ⁓ it's really given me a lot to think about and hopefully ⁓ all those listening as well. We'll take a break now and then we'll be back with our So it's time for our dilemma now Georgina. really like this one because it actually does relate to the topic of supervision that we were discussing before. How do you feel about this? The counselor therapist who consistently turns up to supervision. and speaks about all the great work and all the positive interventions they've done but tends to away from and simply does not mention the challenges or the problems that might have encountered.

Georgina: So interesting this one, isn't it? And I guess I'll talk about it from the perspective of a supervisor, but this is just as relevant if we might identify with this or maybe it's something we've experienced in a supervision group. I guess the first thing to mention is there's nothing wrong with it. In fact, sometimes in supervision, too many of us dwell for all of our time and all of the complicated and challenging things that are happening. And I do believe there's a really important space in supervision for us to celebrate everything that's going really well and to be proud of our progress and the work that we're doing. I guess what we're talking about here is maybe a supervisee who is avoiding something, maybe a supervisee who is not bringing aspects of their practice, because we all know that this work ⁓ is and it is common for us to come up against challenges or ⁓ areas risk or ⁓ ethical that we need to talk about. So the thing that we really need to think about here is ⁓ Well, why aren't they? Why don't they feel able to bring those kinds of things? And so I would be thinking about how can I make supervision the safest possible experience? You know, what is it that's going on here that means that this doesn't feel very comfortable? it might be about thinking about that sense of attunement and regulation, how we help them to feel safe. ⁓ I will also be really tuning into what is the attachment dance that is playing out here? You know, if we've got a supervisee who is coming and talking this way, I would hazard a guest, that their primary attachment style is possibly avoidant, dismissive, know, someone who perhaps prone to intellectualising rather than really accessing their feelings. And I wonder if maybe I might find a way for us to explore this, you know, what is it that's happening between the two of us here in the room? ⁓ We even want to have a look at some of the supervision models and think about why is it that we're meant to be doing here in this room? And ⁓ do feel like you have the space to do all of those things? So there's lots of different ways to approach this, but I think also as supervisees, we need to take some responsibility for making sure that we are doing the best job for our clients and really getting what we need. And so that's a question I'll ask at the end of most supervision sessions, know, you got what you needed today? And hopefully, even if someone hasn't, they will go away thinking about that and think about, well, how can I take responsibility for that next time?

Darren: Georgina, as we've come to expect, you bring so much knowledge and warmth and articulation to what you share with us. ⁓ a really beautiful answer to that dilemma. Thank you so much for sharing that. And thank you for joining me today. It's been yet another brilliant episode with you on, and I'll hopefully drag you in for a third time sometime soon. Thank you very much. and thank you too for listening. If you'd like to learn more about our Level 5 or Level 7 diplomas in attachment theory and attachment-based psychotherapy, you can find full details at optimahealthservices.co.uk. It's also where you can find details for the upcoming therapist retreat. Thanks for and I'll see you next