Darren: Hello, I'm Darren and welcome to Attach Together, the podcast for counsellors, psychotherapists and anyone interested in attachment theory and counselling related discussions. We're back for season two and we're better than ever. We've made a few improvements. For season two, we'll also be visual. So you can now watch our videos on YouTube as well as listen to us in all the usual places. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And one more change for this season is that I've convinced the rest of the team at Optima to take turns in hosting. So with that in mind, I'll pass you over to our host for today, Georgina Sturmer. Georgina, over to you.

Georgina Sturmer: Thank you Darren. So as Darren mentioned, I'm Georgina Sturmer. I'm an attachment-based psychotherapist working in private practice. And alongside hosting this podcast, I also teach on the Level 5 courses at Optima. Now before we begin, just a really quick note, our episodes include a CPD certificate. If you'd like to access it, you can visit our website optretachment.co.uk or check the show notes Now today we're going to be exploring creativity and what that means in the therapy room. Now Darren I know this is something that you really love exploring so let's start right at the beginning. What do we even mean when we talk about taking a creative approach to therapy?

Darren: For me it's broad. A creative approach includes pens, paper and paint, but is certainly not just those items. for me a creative approach is I guess it's accessing a flow state within the client work to maybe access those parts of ourselves that we don't yet know about. and maybe we don't know, maybe we do, but we can't find the words to share. And so it enables us an opportunity to share our experience and tap into something maybe that's a bit more somatic and live within us rather than within our minds. So it's about working in a creative way, and that could be far broader than just pens and paper.

Georgina Sturmer: And I was just thinking there as you were speaking, there's something about creativity and I guess playing and playfulness that does tap into that somatic side of things and also that pre-verbal side of things. So maybe we're not working with children, maybe we're working with adults, but actually that role of playing creativity is really important still, isn't it?

Darren: Yeah, and I think actually what we're what we're often doing is accessing that inner child and by bringing in maybe some activities and some play, actually that that does two things. It allows us to connect with our own inner child, but it also enables us to build a deeper relationship with our therapists. So sometimes we'll have a client in the room, maybe they're in a bit of a disorganized place and it's quite hard to access through just speaking alone. and so maybe if they're very quiet, maybe if they're distrusting, the one game I play quite often in life generally with my children. is Uno and I'm quite happy to bring that into the therapy room and even if we just we build in an element of play and then the conversation can flow and maybe you'll just see like little glimmers of conversation that come through from a session of playing a game. But then what I've generally found is the following session is then far more open because we've allowed that client to relax into that space. and use it in a way that they don't normally access conversation in day to day life.

Georgina Sturmer: And so guess in a sense, creativity serves lots of different purposes. It can help us to connect. It can help to offer a kind of softness when talking might feel a bit intense, but it also maybe can give us a window into someone's process and to what's going on inside them.

Darren: Yeah, I think it absolutely can. I think it gives everyone an insight into their process that we may not have had access to before. And if I were to reflect on sessions I've had where maybe we've used stones or buttons, and actually it's surprising how if you are someone to lay their world out in terms of people or places how those items very quickly take on a metaphorical meaning and really represent something for that client and although the client can't take all those stones home with them sometimes I might even let them take one or two what we can do is take a photo and an image and it's like a snapshot of where they were in that moment. So then when you work creatively later on, maybe with exactly the same items and they're laid out differently because they now have a new understanding of their world, you can then compare those two photographs. And sometimes that goes beyond needing to find the words because the images tell their own story and the the distance travelled. and that's why I really, really, really like creative approaches because they can cut through and head straight to emotions without ever having to have the pressure of correctly labelling them.

Georgina Sturmer: Yeah, because there's something about pressure isn't there sometimes when we're using words and we're trying to articulate our feelings and I was just thinking of something there when you were talking about the use of stones and I know you've talked to me before about the use of Sanitre which maybe we'll talk about today which is that these things happen on two levels don't they? We get the representation, the actual thing that the client has laid out but we also get to notice how they are when they're doing it. So what is happening in their process? Is it quick? Is it slow? Are they excited? Are they playful? Do they find it bit intimidating?

Darren: As a therapist, it can feel like a lot to juggle because you're both in the moment with your client, but all the time making those links between what has already been discussed, where you feel the work may be heading, what it might represent, all the while keeping an eye on safety and ensuring because this can open up huge things for clients, and huge things can feel destabilizing and scary. So actually, it's about taking a slow approach and really monitoring what you see in front of you to ensure that the creative activity is of use but not overwhelming.

Georgina Sturmer: and there's something there about to ensure that it's of use. And so I guess there's a question there for me to you, which is, how do you know? How do you know which intervention to use if intervention is even the right word and when it's appropriate?

Darren: No. I I mean it's counsellor intuition. It's it's sitting there and and maybe so maybe you're a counsellor in training and you're thinking, well, I don't know. And I remember attending Sandra training and saying, I'm really into this, but I just won't know when to use it. And the trainer suggested maybe use it when you don't know what else to use. So if the conversation's flowing, don't interrupt it and say, no, what I really want to do is use Sandray, so let's stop this conversation. Let you know these are for those moments where a client maybe feels stuck or maybe where you're struggling to attune to their world and quite exactly what it is they're representing in the room. And so at that point, my first go-to with any client I have to say is the visual cards. I've got a set, I've got a number of sets, but there's one that I particularly like and I just ask a client just to look through at those images and maybe pick out what feels pertinent to them. And often you'll ask for like one or two, and you'll get a whole stack of them, and you'll say, Okay, let's put them into some kind of order. And it's within that ordering of the images you start to understand quite where the client is at. Are they picking the dark images? Are they picking the ones that represent like hopeless? Or are they picking one that's got like a glimmer of light or a rainbow in the corner? And you say, Okay, what's the rainbow? And it you can elicit sessions and sessions and sessions from just one image because it can open up such a portal into your clients' inner world. and I find that To be really very useful, specifically with clients who've not got much experience of being in therapy, don't always know how to use the space, or maybe are mistrusting of their own version of events. And so it's a way of rather than asking them to tell their story, it's just that way of accessing how they feel, and it's really bringing the work into. into feelings rather than into thinking.

Georgina Sturmer: And I was just thinking as you were saying it, there's something really sensory about this stuff, isn't there? There's something very grounding about touching things and moving things around and playing them and feeling the sound in our fingers or whatever it is.

Darren: Mm. Yeah, especially I notice that a lot with the sand tray work. So sometimes a a client will just sit and just play with the sand itself and now I've got like a whole basket full of items that can be used in the sand tray. and but sometimes a client will just pick up one or two things and and that's it. That's their sand tray is quite empty. And actually it's the the pleasure comes from holding those items and using them and b and really connecting with something rather than the need and the rush to tell a story through the items.

Georgina Sturmer: There's a question that I can feel coming for me and I'm really curious to know where you land on this and if it's a thing or not. But obviously we work from an attachment perspective. We talk about attachment all the time, we teach attachment, we've got it coming out of our ears. And I'm wondering what you see from clients in terms of are people with different attachment behaviours more open or more resistant to the idea of this type of play, of this type of creativity in the therapy room?

Darren: Yeah. it will come as no surprise that I've noticed that clients with avoidant tendencies and are more boundaried in their approach can sometimes really struggle to access the creative methods at first. Often they are the clients that I see the biggest change in as a result of not having the pressure to tell the story. and so often it's a way of People worry about getting stuff right or wrong, don't they, in therapy? I'm doing the wrong thing, saying the wrong thing. So when you bring something new in that's out of their comfort zone, again we move straight into that shame place. So I don't one activity I really, really, really like is drawing an armoire. So the the idea is is draw an a wardrobe, an armoire of what people see on the outside of you. Do they just see someone that's bog standard, an IKE, a flat pack? Do they see someone that's got a bit of flamboyance about them? Do they see someone that's very open? and maybe you're an open shelved? wardrobe system or actually are you closed up and have you got a lock on the door? So just in that one interpretation you can tell a lot from how a person's feeling. And then You then move on to okay, let's open the doors. What's really going on inside the Yamaha? What would I actually see inside of your wardrobe? and again, some people draw boxes because they've got boxes of stuff, some people's is very organized, some people it might be Narnia. it can be interpreted in all any number of ways. The bit the barrier to this is often the drawing, not the interpretations. So what is quite a good technique is to ask them to draw it with their less dominant hand. Now they might say to you, why is that? And you can reply, it's a it's a left left brain right brain thing and it's just getting you to work a bit differently. But between you and I what I'm really trying to do is make sure that it doesn't need to be good. Because if we draw with our less dominant hand of course it's not going to be good because we've we don't draw with that hand. But it enables us the freedom to accept that it won't be good. So we can already take that off the table and actually just get on with the activity. because the reality is it doesn't really matter how good the drawing is. What matters is the meaning and the interpretation behind it. But be careful with the interpretation. We don't want to be telling our clients how we interpret their work. that's it's their world and they interpret it but we can comment on what we notice or I notice there's a lock on that door. I notice it looks very tidy inside. Do you see where I'm going with this? So it's about no rather than diagnosing.

Georgina Sturmer: Yeah, and. And I guess it's also about noticing how they were. You I noticed that you fell quiet as you drew that for me. Yeah.

Darren: Mm yeah.

Georgina Sturmer: But there's something really interesting there about shame and creativity isn't there is that sometimes I think we make the assumption that everyone will be really excited about the playfulness of creativity. But actually for many people for whatever reason, getting things right, maybe they were told they were terrible at art at school, whatever that history is actually that can make it really difficult for them. And when you were talking about drawing that wardrobe, it made me also think about I do some work with nesting dolls, you know, the dolls you pull apart and there's another one on the inside, another one on the inside. And it's that same idea isn't it of having whether it's a drawing or an object or something we can touch something that we can imagine that takes us away from just words words words and takes us into like thinking about the different layers of us as a person.

Darren: I'm interested by that. I'll tell you in a moment how I use the nesting dolls. But I'm interested how do you use them in your work, Georgina?

Georgina Sturmer: So it really varies and honestly it's often about what comes in the moment more than anything else. maybe it will be a conversation about the different parts of someone's life that they carry around with them. Or maybe it will be about the different size of themselves that they show to the world. And often it's about handing them to the client or just opening them out and laying them out and suggesting, you know, I wonder if we played with this for a bit, what would that little one be? You know, what would that big one be? which parts are kind of hiding inside. And I think I do some things. So I train therapists and in one of the final sessions of one of the courses that we run, I bring in a load of creative stuff and I hand it out and they go through it in groups and I ask them to come up with ideas of how would they use it if they were working creatively. And these guys, they're really early in their journey, so they're not working with clients yet. And it's so exciting to hear all the different ways that they would choose to work with dolls. And sometimes I've pinched some of their ideas too.

Darren: And I can really see that excitement in you. And it and this is what we need to be mindful of because sometimes our excitement for a creative approach can almost be off-putting for a client who's feeling hesitant. So because what we don't want to do is almost make it seem like the answer and this is gonna this is I'm so excited because this is gonna fix you or diagnose you or all those bits. But I've got my nest in dolls with me here. my favourite animal is a penguin, some minor penguins. And for those who are watching you can see them, but for those who are listening you can hear them. Now I often use my nesting dolls to explain attachment theory and the work that we're doing in attachment therapy. So I say, imagine every single day of your life is a Russian doll layer. So you start as a baby and every day you've got another layer going on top, going on top. And most days might be quite unremarkable, and so they they just kind of they just exist inside of you. But then sometimes events happen and they need care for. And if we don't nurture them, we don't receive what we need in that moment, they can stay with us and we hear them. So although we can't see them, because we've got the biggest version of ourselves on the outside, we can still hear them on the inside. What we can do is go back, open ourselves up, and that's Find those bits that are driving us, that are calling out, that are making the noise inside of us, we can go in and we can attend to them. We can metaphorically put a blanket around them. And if you put a blanket around that layer that's making the noise, and sometimes I even will get a bit of fabric or a bit of tissue and lay it round and we'll wrap it round and we'll put it in and then you shake it and there's no noise anymore because it's been attended to. And I find that is just such a simple metaphorical way of trying to illustrate what attachment based psychotherapy is all about. So I really love working with the Russian dolls because that and then once you've got them in the room, the client then uses them and interprets them in their own ways, but it's a way of kind of showing the lead of how they can be used metaphorically.

Georgina Sturmer: Yeah. And I think you've also taken us onto another useful point, which is how we can use creativity visually, which means we can also use it when we're working online. obviously for lot of people listening, I primarily work online and for a lot of people listening, a lot of their work will be online. And so coming up with ways to think about, well, just because we're working online doesn't mean this has to be only words, words, words. It can be other things too. And so being able to hold our nesting dolls and work with them online with a client can be really helpful, can't it?

Darren: One image that I use an awful lot and in fact I have a picture of a swimming pool on my wall in my counselling cabin. Because I use the metaphor of the swimming pool a lot. So I have a an image very simple that I've just sketched out. And it is of a swimming pool and it has a deep end and a shallow end and a cafe and a lifeguard and a swimming instructor, a viewing gallery, a changing room and a door in and out. And I'll maybe say to my client, where are we today? Are w are we in the cafe having a chat? Or when we're reviewing work, we've really been in the deep end at times. And that would be the client will say I've been in deep end. And I'll say, Okay, and where was I? And they might say, You were right in there with me, or you were the lifeguard on the side, that I knew you were there if I needed to. So it's and but at the moment we're just you're waiting for me because I'm in the changing room. I I'm almost done in my journey and I'm ready to leave the door. So it can be interpreted in so many different ways. And just that one image, you can you can open up a whole world of discussion about the relationship you have with your client rather than just, we need a review, let's check in, are you happy with how things are going? Which those conversations can be useful, but some clients need something a bit more of a push or a bit more understanding without necessarily having to find the words themselves.

Georgina Sturmer: And so there's something about all these metaphors, isn't it? And I'm thinking now about some of the ones I often use with clients. So when we're thinking about defensive strategies, what we would talk about as defensive strategies, I don't necessarily use those words with my clients. We might think about castles or gates or bridges or islands.

Darren: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Georgina Sturmer: and what it means for them to be on an island, or for what it means for them to be reaching out for someone and have them pull away. And I think those words, especially when they come from a client, can be so effective and a really creative way of working, even when we're talking about talking therapy.

Darren: Mm-hmm. And I've seen other work done where people just use stones and feathers and they've asked someone to explain their whole life in terms of was that year a feather year or a stone year? Feather, light, fluffy, fun, stone, heavy, sinks you down, you know, and actually lay that out and allow a client to see, yes, there were some bad years, but it've also been some really light years. And it it just enables you to visually represent a lifespan and it can just cause discussion to flow. and that's what all these approaches are about. It's not about the approach itself, it's about what it opens up for people. So if you've if you've not used creative approaches very much, I really would urge you to do some CPD, do a bit of reading, and just give it a go. You know, it's no matter what modality you're in, a bit of creativity can really open up work for the client's world.

Georgina Sturmer: Exactly. And I guess something I would add is that, you know, there are some of us for who the idea of working creatively will come very naturally and there are some of us for who the idea of working creatively might feel a bit off-putting, maybe for reasons of attachment, as we've discussed. And so it might be that this is something you explore in supervision, you know. I love working creatively, but I'm worried that maybe I'll just chuck a San Trey and I don't really think about it, or it might be I hear other people talking about working creatively, but I don't really like the idea of it. And just kind of...

Darren: Mm.

Georgina Sturmer: prodding at that bit and saying, what is that about? What is it you love so much about it? Or what is it about it that you find intimidating? And also think about working creatively in supervision as well. You we haven't quite got time today to go into that, but all of these things that we can think about in therapy are just as valid in supervision, aren't they?

Darren: Yeah, I know. And and actually quite a few of the bits I've shared with you today I gleaned from previous supervisors. So yes, it works incredibly well in supervision. And and I have to watch myself because I love the creative approaches. So I can be incredibly like almost go in a bit too hard with it and a bit too much. So just be tentative and just remember we're working in our clients' best interest, not just out of what we find interesting.

Georgina Sturmer: Yeah, so is this what they need right now? And where are we hoping to go? Yeah. Thank you so much, Darren. It's been really, really lovely speaking to you about this today. Darren and I will be back in a moment to finish off just after this quick break.

Darren: I love that.

Georgina Sturmer: Darren, just before we finish, I was wondering how you're feeling about coming to the end of another teaching year.

Darren: yeah, it's been quite a few days actually. I finished with my class of what four days ago. and I feel incredibly mixed about it because I've seen the class develop and flourish and grow so much and I feel incredibly proud of every single person that's made it made it through the course. But I also feel a bit sad because we have that space that's become so special on the Friday morning with my group and I just really need to sit with that for a bit. It's okay that a situation brings up conflicting emotions. and actually the the course the the group I've just had Have worked so incredibly hard, and the course is so rewarding, but to witness that is also rewarding and to see the changes. So yeah, I feel incredibly humbled actually to to consider that. And then I've just literally signed up my last client for my class starting in September. Yeah, successfully interviewed them last week. So I'm now fully thinking about I need a break and there'll be a summer break, but I'll be back in September and back to it. And I'm so excited because every group brings a different dynamic and a different energy. and I just can't wait to get stuck back into it. But once I've had my break, once I've enjoyed the summer, and Over to you guys for the rest of the podcast series.

Georgina Sturmer: And I think that's the thing, isn't it? You know, the teaching year, the studying year, it comes to an end, we're ready for a break, but we're excited about September. And so if you're listening to this and you'd like to learn more about our Level 5 or Level 7 diplomas in attachment-based psychotherapy, you can find full details at optimaattachment.co.uk. Now that's also where you can download your CPD certificate for the time spent listening to us today, which is available for all of our episodes. there's a link in the show notes. So a huge thanks for joining us today on Attached Together. We'll see you next time.