Georgina: Hello and welcome to Attach Together, the podcast where we explore attachment theory and what it really means in practice for counsellors, psychotherapists and psychologists. The podcast is created by the team at Optima who deliver the level five and level seven diplomas in attachment-based psychotherapy. It's a space that is designed to help you deepen your understanding, reflect on your clinical work and stay connected to the heart of attachment-informed practice. I'm Georgina, an attachment-based psychotherapist working in private practice and alongside appearing on this podcast, I also teach on the level five courses at Optima. Now, before we begin, just a quick note. Our episodes now include a CPD certificate. If you'd like to access it, you can visit our website or check the show notes if you're listening on Spotify. And I'll share the website at the end of the episode. So today I'm joined by Jane. Jane is an attachment-focused psychotherapist, and we actually trained together on the Optima Level 5 course. She now runs a private practice and works predominantly with adults impacted by adoption. Now Jane is an adoptee herself and has lived experience of what she calls two sides of the adoption triad. Now this is such an interesting topic for us all because it used to be the case that if we were a therapist working with adults where the work focused on their adoption, it meant that they would need to seek a therapist who was specially trained and registered with Ofsted. But this is no longer the case. So more and more, think, as therapists, whether we work in private practice or in an agency, we may well find ourselves working with the topic of adoption. It's one of the reasons why we've invited Jane in to speak to us today. So Jane, where should we begin today when we think about what therapists really need to know about working with adoption? Jane: Hi Georgina, yes lovely to be here and thank you for asking me. Yeah I mean adoption is a huge huge and complex area and like you say because the requirement from to be registered with with an off-state service has been removed because of the waiting list really for for adoptees who are seeking adoption focused therapy. so I thought it would be interesting really to give a really brief overview of really the history of adoption and how things have changed and then leading to what we might see, as therapists in the therapy room. And I'm sure from programs on the television now and, things that have been on the news, we have the history, sort of post-war Britain where babies were, were born in sometimes in mother and baby homes where because they weren't married, there was societal shame and there was sometimes abuse there. These mothers were viewed as the lowest of the low in some cases and the babies were taken for adoption and had their identity stripped and people are still struggling to find the records because they were seen really as the lowest of the low. And then we did move away from that. And now from sort of the eighties, babies are adopted or taken into care because of reasons of things like abuse, neglect, or it may be that the birth family cannot, they don't have the resources to look after the child. It might be complex health needs, something like that. There is a whole myriad of reasons why. And often now children are then placement of the care system and fostered and waiting for, you know, for parents to come forward. So that the whole system, sort of through an attachment lens, we can see that there is so much there to unpick in the therapy room. If somebody has been through that and experienced an infancy, maybe three or four different, what we call placements, which is a word I use. really hate. Prior to that they may have been exposed to all sorts of different things which are the reasons why they've been placed into care and then for some it might be that they are adopted into families where it's just not talked about and that identity is erased and there is some shame still there. And for some adoptees, talking can be really, really difficult for their adoptive parents. And there are all sorts of reasons for that. And, you know, we sort of see through adolescence when the brain changes again, that how these experiences can play out. And so children now who are coming forwards really do need very specialist clinical support. But I work, that's one of the reasons why I work with adults. And so we sort of see people coming in who really, I think when I studied the level four, when we covered attachment, it was a presumption that somebody must have preoccupied attachments if they were an adoptee. As we learn that fear of abandonment, that clinginess to something that they're afraid of losing. But actually I see the opposite. Georgina: Yeah. Jane: And I think it's really an interesting area to look at that for many adoptees, that protest wasn't listened to and they have withdrawn and the attachment has swung the other way towards. that more dismissive attachment. So I see people who have really withdrawn from society, what we may class as, this is not a therapy term, but loners, that very self-sufficient, I don't need that person in my life, struggled with relationships, that real sense of I don't need anybody. I'm responsible for looking after myself because I've had to do it. So, we'll see. Georgina: And so I guess what we're hearing here Jane is that we might maybe have had some kind of assumption that everyone who has had this experience of being adopted is going to present in some way. They're going to have this particular attachment style or these particular defences. But what you're explaining is that it's so much more nuanced than that. And actually everyone's individual experiences will mean they'll present in different ways. Jane: Absolutely, yeah, Georgina and you know alongside the attachment which I know is what we're to discuss, but we have trauma, developmental delays with various experiences. There may be children who've been exposed to alcohol in the womb and of course as we know, attachment is intergenerational and trauma that gets passed down. You know, just happens in utero and babies will be exposed to the anxieties that the mothers are feeling and it may be that for reasons before they're born the mother knows that that child is going to go into care. There's a whole myriad of different things going on before... Georgina: And I guess when we're thinking about that intergenerational history, we're dealing with lots of different things because there's on the one hand a baby who may well have experienced that trauma in the womb, as you've said, in utero. But then I'm wondering as well about what it's like to maybe grow up and not have the stories about your heritage because perhaps you were adopted and those stories didn't follow you. Jane: Yeah, absolutely. And we know that identity is a huge area in adoption. There are lots of different ones, as I've said, but identity and that formation that doesn't happen, the genetic mirroring, and with the best will in the world, know, adoptive parents, there isn't that genetic mirroring there. Georgina: Can you explain a bit more about that, that genetic mirroring or lack of? Jane: Yeah, as we've sort of talked about attachment and the gaze and that recognition on a neurobiological level, that sameness that is there for the infant to respond to and how the attachment forms from that. And quite often that isn't there. So the identity isn't shaped. in, that really secure way. And so I think for a lot of adoptees and because this is all preverbal, it's then really hard to articulate what is happening in the therapy room. But often clients will say, you know, I just don't feel authentic. feel a job hop. I change my hair. I can't seem to fit in. I feel like a missing piece in a jigsaw. all these sort of metaphors that can't be articulated. Yeah. Yeah. Georgina: Yeah, and we know that attachment is so much about that sense of fitting in, isn't it? That sense of where do I belong, where do I feel secure, where do I feel safe? Yeah. Jane: Yes, yes, yeah. Yeah. And the dysregulation that goes with that. You know, and I think it's sure, isn't it? Who said about the right brain to right brain through that attunement and how that helps to develop the limbic system. And I, when I learned this, I was like, so that's why I'm like, you know, but yeah. Going back to the attachment patterns, you know, there's also the other unresolved attachment or disorganized attachment. And I think the word unresolved is so pertinent for adoption trauma because that is what it is. It's unresolved. Things were missing, things didn't happen. And yeah, that trauma is unresolved. So we do see in clinic people who, you know, it's across the attachment spectrum and it's picking out that without labeling. It's just noticing and being able to explore that. Georgina: And so I think this leads us on really nicely to because you've given us such a good overview of how someone might present if they have been through adoption. What does that mean for us as therapists then? How do we work in a way that is adoption informed, if that's the right way to describe it? Jane: Yeah. Yes. How long is a piece of string, Georgina? I think Georgina: Hahaha Jane: the main thing is being comfortable and having knowledge. And it's so important to use the language that the client uses. And if you are at all unsure, then ask. And, you know, I... Georgina: And so when you're talking about language, Jane, are you talking specifically about terminology around someone's adoption that they might use? Jane: Yeah, yeah, so things like some people use terminology first family, some people say birth family, some people use Christian names and you know, it is whatever the client wants to use because that is their world and trying to see their experiences through their eyes because every adoptee is different like any client coming to therapy. And I think for, for a lot of clients that may have grown up with being maybe told on nuances towards, you're lucky. Well, you know, you, you dodged that bullet. You know, I've had that said to me and that that's a really difficult thing to, to explore because on the one hand you're learning that because of these experiences, this is some of the things that have shaped you. But then you have another voice saying, but you're lucky. Georgina: Yeah, that sounds like a really difficult balance to handle and I guess our role in the therapy room is to give people that space where they can explore actually maybe I don't always feel lucky, maybe there are other feelings there, maybe there's anger or resentment or frustration. Jane: Yeah, yeah. Lots of those things. Grief and loss are huge. And, we know that was a big part of Bulby's teachings around grief and loss. Ironically, have to say, Bulby was the one who did advocate against single mothers. because he felt that that would lead to maternal deprivation. And that was part of the sort of move towards the sort of historic adoptions, which I find quite... difficult thing to get my head around because here's the guy who was not talking. Georgina: Yeah, that's fascinating, isn't it? Because if we think about John Bowlby as the father of so much of these really important attachment teachings, but then Jane: Yeah, yeah. Georgina: actually if there is also this sense of him advocating sometimes for children to be adopted, that feels like quite a mixed message for us from the past, So Jane, you've given us so much to think about so far, and I guess I'm curious maybe to step a bit deeper into the therapy room and think more about the kinds of things that you might see or how you might work with adoption. Jane: Yes, and going back to the attachment patterns that we do see, it is surprising that some adoptees do come to therapy because they're the ones who, have maybe shut themselves off. But for those who do, it can be a real push-pull relationship. Yeah, that Georgina: Tell me more push-pull between therapist and client. Jane: I've seen five therapists and nobody can help me and that pushing away. but actually they do, there is this inner need to connect and to explore. So it's really dancing around adoption to begin with. Georgina: And I'm curious, Jane, for you, Jane: moving. Georgina: do you find, I don't know how much you disclose about being an adult, add up to yourself, to your clients, do you find that that is something that clients seek out, maybe looking for someone who is adoption experienced in some way? Jane: Yeah, I think it's, it's really helpful. And if I had found, a therapist who was an adoptee, I would have certainly chosen them. because I think there is the, the sort of unspoken, yes, I get it. That, which can be really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Georgina: That shorthand. Yeah. Jane: because, you know, as I say, we've sort of fed the narrative that we're we're lucky to be able to be in a room with somebody and be angry and be frustrated and to be brutally honest that you feel not listened to and overlooked and have had no control. and control is something that I do see play out. It's that either need to control or have a complete lack of control over things. There's a real, and again, perhaps that disorganized attachment playing out. but yeah, the, the, the sort of building that secure base is the, the first point of call really. And that can be very long-term because Georgina: Yeah. Jane: it's showing that no matter what that adoptee does, you will still be there. you're not going anywhere. So it's building that relationship and really encouraging that honesty. think perhaps adoptees do find it difficult to articulate. So bodywork is really helpful. Georgina: Tell me more about that, Jane. Jane: Yeah. And I think sometimes people think, that's a bit woo woo. But alongside talking therapy, I do really advocate for things like tapping, emotional freedom technique, things where there is a connection and things that can really help to regulate when you feel that, what I call adoption overwhelm, where things suddenly feel, yeah, yeah. Georgina: Adoption overwhelm. Jane: And I think that's a dysregulated state where things, and it can happen quite quickly. So when you feel that sense of this is all too much, just being able to, okay, what's happening now in my body? What do I need to do? Like we do with a lot of therapies, but recognizing that I am in control of my body and I am somebody who recognizes these things now and I can do something about it. The difficult thing about adoption therapy is that like some of these things, there is no magic pill. There is nothing that I can say here. Now all that's gone away. So it's really building the relationship and doing body-based work alongside all the attachment things that we do. that things like mentalization. grief work in a child work which can be very helpful, writing letters to the younger self, writing letters to birth parents. Something I have done which was successful is asking if they have anything to bring to therapy like a photograph or perhaps a blanket, a toy, something like that and really sitting and trying to get that sense of what that means. And yeah, that can be a bit of a breakthrough, but it has to be done in a very timely way. Georgina: I'm imagining that would be so powerful in the right situation and thinking about, you know, the role of, I suppose, transitional objects and what gives us a sense of security. And so you've talked us through a bit about what might bring someone into therapy, what we might actually do when we're in therapy. And I guess I'm really curious about endings and about what endings might mean in the context of working with an adult, adult T. Jane: Yeah, I'm glad you've mentioned that Georgina because endings really need thinking about quite early on in the process. I'm not an advocate for behavioral therapies for adoptees because I think that's usually short term work which might put a plaster over it but it's not going to quite do what needs doing. So... Yeah, invariably, it probably will be long-term work. So really that testing of, okay, I'm going away for a week. How does that sit with you? Because I'm not going to be here in three weeks time. Let's talk about that now before we get there. and we can plan for it. And you know, the flip side of that is for them to be able to say, I'm not going to make it extra, it's that relationship again. but knowing that an ending is inevitable at some point and really exploring that with the client and making sure that it's done in a really safe way. And I do think this isn't always something that therapists do agree with, but I do think adoptees tend to hop in and out of therapy throughout life. Georgina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jane: because there are things that may happen. Retirement is a huge one. That kind of feeling unwanted in the world, you know, I'm back to being something that nobody needs, you know, that kind of process. So I always try and leave an open door, but in a way that, you know, you are okay to leave. Georgina: Yeah. Jane: But here I am. And if you do need to contact me again, but we will start where we've left because that's where we were and building that inner strength to know that endings are possible. Georgina: So there's a sense of, I'm here if you need me, I will hold you in mind, but we've also done some work that Jane: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Georgina: might mean that you're okay without me out there and all of those things are fine. Jane: Yeah, absolutely. Georgina: And I guess we're coming towards our ending today of this episode. And so just before you leave us, Jane, I wanted to ask if there's one thing that a therapist listening to us would take away from this today, what might it be? Jane: Yeah, please, please remember that adoptees are overrepresented in mental health services. Eating disorders, addictions, suicide, the rates are really high. So you really need to have an awareness of what that person really is bringing into that room. So a real understanding of being able to see the client through the lens of adoption and not making assumptions because we are all different as any client are. You know, we all have our own baggage, but, and I would say, be aware of your own attachment style. because that's huge, especially if you are an adoptive therapist, you know, make sure your supervision is attachment focused, make sure that you have got the relevant support in place because. It's a very complex area and it can be really triggering for therapists. know, and it is amazing when you sort of speak to people whose lives have been affected by adoption, you know, maybe not directly, but indirectly. So it is out there. So yeah, do your homework and know your own. attachment. think that is important. Georgina: And that's so important for us therapists, isn't it? Doing our homework, knowing our own attachments and knowing our competency level as well, understanding when we need to really take something to supervision or when we really need to learn some more. I'd like to say thank you so much for coming to join us today, Jane. I know I've learned a lot from you and I'm sure that everyone listening to this would have done. And for those Jane: Thank you. Georgina: of you who've been listening, if you'd like to learn more about our Level 5 and Level 7 diplomas in attachment theory and attachment-based psychotherapy, you can find full details our optimalhealthservices.co.uk. That's also where you can download a CPD certificate for the time spent listening to us today. And this is available for all of our episodes. If you're listening on Spotify, there's a link in the show notes. A huge thanks for joining us today on Attached Together. We'll see you next time. Jane: Thank you. Bye.