Wendy Widdrington: and joining us today is my mate Phil from the Level 7 course, Phil Pinchin. But I do think, we need to be, although we're going to be very relaxed, we probably do need to give you a bit more of an introduction to that. So you can be found on the Optima website. You're a supervisor, counsellor, couple therapist, Level 5 and Level 7 qualified now. And you are absolutely top of the list, my... phone a friend, go to, for anything, Attachment So I'm really pleased that you're here to help me chat through Attachment and Burnout. PHIL: you're very welcome and it's lovely to see you up at this time and actually functioning because know mornings aren't really Wendy Widdrington: Well... PHIL: your time of day are they? Wendy Widdrington: Well, you know, I'm not great first thing in the morning. You're like much more of an early bird, aren't you? But I have got a big note to say, let Phil get a word in edgeways. So how confident are you, Phil, that you are actually gonna get a word in edgeways today? PHIL: I think I've probably used up about 90 % of my word count already so we'll see how it goes. Wendy Widdrington: Yeah, because I do like the chat, don't I? But it's interesting that I was thinking this morning, but I absolutely love conversations and I particularly like conversation with you because you always tend to help me see things through an attachment lens in a slightly different way. And so this part of me excited to talk to you, but I'm also aware that because we're talking about burnout, I am feeling myself kind of... dip down about the topic even? How about you about just the topic talking about burnout? Do you notice anything different in your energy about that or? PHIL: Well, probably I avoid it in all honesty, so maybe that's a factor. And I think, I don't know if you're going to mention systematic reviews, I know it's a word very close to your heart. And obviously on the Level 7 with Optima, we teamed up for the systematic review, which was around burnout. In fact, can you remember what the question was? Or is it somewhere that we don't want to go? But it's something that we... probably looked into more than certainly I've ever done. I've always been aware of the phrase from my own working life. yeah, we spent a lot of time on it, didn't we? Wendy Widdrington: We did spend a lot of time, yeah, and we were looking to see with an open mind, like you have to do in research, but we were looking to see might there be any association between burnout and attachment. yeah, so what do you think overall, having done that, and it was quite a long piece of work, wasn't it? What are the most important things you've come out of thinking about what we learned, what we went through? What's the most important thing do you think? PHIL: think a couple of things really. First of all, it was part of the Level 7. If I'm honest, would I have chosen to do a research project if I didn't do the Level 7? I don't think I would. And that really makes it important for me for the Level 7. to make sure you've got something that you are interested in. And because it had that attachment element, I was interested in it. I'm not so sure about you actually. Were you interested in burnout, the attachment side of it or what? But we came up with this question, didn't we? And did the research. Going back to the question you just asked, I think we came out of it by feeling that there's a lot more research that probably needed to be done. But there were certainly links between burnout and anxious attachment from what we read within the systematic review. Wendy Widdrington: Yeah, and you know, like you say, loads more to research and some areas with avoidant attachment and the impact of burnout there, that was a little bit more. What's the word? just needed a lot more research and a little bit more uncertain as to it could draw you in to burnout, it could draw you out. So that part was quite interesting. I think, in terms of me and burnout, I was much more interested in resilience and thriving and flourishing and, you know, but we need to know what burnout is in order to continue to thrive and flourish really, don't we? So it is a really important topic. And I think what draws me into it the most is I'm really interested in working with shame and with lost and I think there is quite a bit of shame around Burnell and you had really nicely said to me at the end of some meeting that we'd had towards the end of the Level 7 and I'd said, I'm tired or whatever I've said. And you had really kindly said, so do you think that was a bit of burnout? Do you think you've got a bit of burnout? And I made some dismissive hand gesture. no, no, I'm just, you know, I'm just tired. But I said to you afterwards, internally, I was kind of, no, I'm coping very well. Thank you very much. What do you mean? Yeah, what do PHIL: How very dare you! Wendy Widdrington: you mean? How ridiculous is that? You know, that actually we've done this huge piece of research on burnout together and I was uncomfortable to be asked about it. PHIL: really interesting about that for a start as you just said I I worded it kindly your reaction I didn't feel as hard to word it particularly kindly I must I must admit and I suppose I noticed that as well in thinking you know straight away what is that is that actually you're irritated is that burnout is it enough is it an attachment defense on the show But it was, it was a lot of work, wasn't it? And probably that was another one of our catch up meetings that we'd had. I think it was probably over Christmas, wasn't it? So we're probably both, you know. Weighing that up as well and wanting to to not be involved in in something but being drawn into it in some way I don't know. It's it's fascinating isn't it but going back to your point, you know What did you notice in yourself that that might have been burnout? In fact before we do that just sorry just before you answer that question probably probably just for what we're talking about today. Obviously Christina Maslach is like, you know, the queen, the person that's come up with the Maslach burnout inventory and just done loads of work around it. What is her definition of burnout? Wendy Widdrington: Yeah, well, that's a really good point, isn't it? Because we just want this to be a chat without getting too technical. But equally, we do need to know what we're talking about, don't we? So like you say, she's one of the pioneer researchers around burnout. And she's got those three elements to her definition. So she says, in burnout, there is this emotional and physical exhaustion. So fatigue is a sign. It's one of those definitions. Then the second one, It's a really sad one in a way for those of us who work in the caring profession. It's when we start to become cynical or depersonalized. And the third one is a sense of, reduced sense of achievement when we feel that actually we're not really being very effective in what we do. And those three together combined to make this sort of stress response, this phenomena that we've called burnout. And again, that was something I wanted to ask you. Do you think that we need a different name in order to sort of get a different approach? know, maybe, you know, if I think I reacted to burnout as a word. And I think that I obviously, until I'd gone away and reflected on it, I'd obviously attached some sort of stigma to that, I? I didn't want to admit it. To me it was as though, I'm not coping. Which is a terrible thing to kind of think, because when we looked at the research, up to 50 % of people at some point, cancers and psychotherapists, experience burnout. So it's just a pathway along to more and more stress. We're all on that pathway at some time, probably, and it's just been able to recognise that and turn around and get back on the path that feels a bit more nurturing and flourishing. But is the problem PHIL: Yeah. Wendy Widdrington: not being able to talk about it? PHIL: Yeah, and I know you don't like the word, do you? It does jar with you somewhat. Which in itself, I wonder what's behind that. And I'm wondering about sort of the attachment behind that because burnout is this word that... Yeah, as you mentioned a moment ago, it jarred you when I kind of intimated that perhaps you're experiencing a bit of it. And I didn't know that, it was genuine in their question and it may even have been tongue in cheek, but it jarred and I wonder how much of it was the word and what you associate with that and maybe how the... Society reacts to the word burnout. But when I think about burnout, when something's burnt out, it's finished, it's done. So... From that point of view I get it, but who wants to actually think of that in terms of themselves? So if you if you're gonna choose a different word then because you're one of the things I really learned about you through during the course And if anyone's looking up to be on one of Wendy's courses She's wonderfully creative and she'll hate me saying that but but I've said it now anyway, although probably get edited Yeah, I thought you might Wendy Widdrington: We'll edit it out Phil, it'll be fine. PHIL: I thought you might But what would you use what what would hit the mark for you? Wendy Widdrington: great question isn't it? I don't know whether I've got my own word quite yet but I am still working on it. I really loved what you said about... if something has burnt out, that's it, it's finished. And I think you've really got something there that maybe that's what I don't like about the word. Because what I found fascinating was this five stage model. I'm probably going to forget who it was that did this five stage model and not be able to pronounce the name, but I'll see if I remember and bring it up later. there's this five stages and the first stage is a honeymoon stage where actually you're involved in something that you're really enjoying and it's new and it's fresh. And that's where the seeds have can be sewn, but the fact that it's a five stage model tells us that, it's not a one-off thing, it's not a process that you just burnt out and that's it, there's a pathway along it. And in terms... PHIL: So that first stage then, I suppose what I'm getting from that is almost that excitement, the honeymoon period, is actually forms part of the burnout. So it's something that means something to you or you do a lot because burnout is associated with a job and I guess... regardless of your job, even if you hate it, you're heavily involved in it because you spend so much time. But even that's quite fascinating, isn't it? Because the seeds are sown with that, enjoyment part, really. Wendy Widdrington: Yeah, I found that really interesting. made me think about, know, because what happens is we, well, I could certainly recognise this in myself. I get caught up with something that I'm really interested in and I think, I'll not do that. That other thing that I know really helps just relax me and chill me out and be part of my routine. Like, I'll not go for that half hour walk. I'll send those emails instead or I'll get that bit part of the project sorted out. And actually, if we carry on on that in that way of sort of prioritising advertising the work but... getting an imbalance with actually the things that help us recharge and relax, you are sowing the seeds for burnout. So you're starting to get that stress response in there. And so I suppose in terms of the word, really like Dr. Emma Hepburn's got a new book out called Anti-Burnout. And she talks about feeling like a zombie and that for her, she's very honest about a time when she burnt out. And she said, I just began to get more and more robotic in a way, not feeling as much and just not being able to feel joy and interest and just getting more and more depleted, feeling like a zombie. So I quite like that word, although how applicable that is widely I don't know. PHIL: It makes me think of the apocalypse and I'm thinking I'm seeing you know as one of the walking dead Wendy Widdrington: well it's quite a stark image isn't it because PHIL: Yeah, it says. Wendy Widdrington: Yeah, how many of us? Because I think... I... really feel what draws me into supervision for example and being a supervisor is I really really love seeing people thrive in what they do and enjoying their job and you can burn out because you're bored as well because you haven't got enough sort of interest in it but then the thought of people just not being not functioning not actually being a switched on back with their work as much as they used to because they've maybe just got an imbalance in things is really it's really sad it's not what we want is it the other word that's a great word I think Ruby Wax uses is frazzled. And I quite like that. The idea of, there's something about energy, isn't there? There's something about that, that energy that makes you you. And it's about that energy flowing in a way that is able to be consistent and not over-bright, but not flicker down either. And I think frazzled has a bit of humor to it. Maybe that's, yeah, maybe it's less scary than burnout, word frazzled. PHIL: Yeah, I think that's what I get from it. And I think it's almost, is that watering it down? Is that part again of some sort of attachment, defense on show that, well, no, I'm not actually burnt out. just a bit frazzled at the moment. And I wonder if there's something in there. I think about, again, about supervision. As a supervisor, if a supervisee comes to me or to come to you and they're just, no, I'm all right. I'm just a little bit frazzled. Actually that's a great cue isn't it to probably explore a little bit more about what's your workload at the moment, where is it you're working, how much autonomy have you got with the work that you do and all those types of factors because there was, you very kindly introduced me to that podcast that that it was Christine Maslach And Christina was talking about her new book or her latest book, it's a couple of years old, and the six areas of work life that impact burnout or are signs of burnout. it was, workload was one, is it too much, is it unrealistic? But equally, as you've just said, it could be too little. but probably yeah, going Wendy Widdrington: No, but... PHIL: back to the supervisees when they come to you, if they're frazzled, what's that Wendy Widdrington: Yeah. PHIL: doing to you as a supervisor? Wendy Widdrington: If I see that they're a bit frazzled, well, I think what I do, because obviously I've got this interest in burnout, particularly since we've done this research, I am also aware that there are different times. know, my exact definition was about occupational burnout at work. Dr. Claire Plumley who we read her book and when we were doing the review she says actually PHIL: We did. Wendy Widdrington: do we need to widen that definition of work and thinking about you know being a parent is work and so there are people who have got more vulnerability at different times in life so being a new parent for example being a carer and being a student and I think that's often supervisees not always but often they are in some sort of training as well at some stage in their career so just making them aware that burnout is part of our profession, know, the vulnerability and risk to it, it's part of our profession and how are we together, how are we going to stop if you are starting down that pathway? Because there's a likelihood that you will if you're studying or if you are working. I'm also a bit distracted there thinking, do you remember in our research it said that if you were younger, you were at more risk, more vulnerability to burnout. And some of the researchers there were saying it's possibly because as we get older, we are better at setting boundaries. PHIL: and if I think back to the systematic review, know, the little research that there was, it did say that the people that they interviewed or filled in the questionnaires, the kind of the antidote to it was the having time to reflect. on what was going on for them and their workload, but also supervision, having somebody else to talk to. And again, think about my role, your role as a supervisor, as you've just mentioned, and you might notice that frazzled or that might be all that that person wants to share at that moment. And that then brings in the attachment because how much of their attachment is informing them, someone saying, well, I'm just a little bit frazzled around the edges, or somebody saying you know what I'm done my candle has burned out completely Wendy Widdrington: Yeah. PHIL: and I can't go on. thinking about attachment would you know your supervisees attachment style I'm just hitting you with this now which is really unfair but I just wanted to do do you know their attachment style? Wendy Widdrington: No, no, it's a great... Well, I mean, immediately my first response to that is I would hold it loosely if that makes sense, depending on who, how long I've known them, and I absolutely bring attachment into the conversation. Not every supervisee that I've had. has majored on attachment. it will depend. If they are like a level five student, then we can have that discussion. It may be that with somebody else, I've got to explain more around attachment and it might just come out as we go along. But I'm certainly aware of some of the behaviors that might indicate someone is responding from an anxious viewpoint or from a withdraw viewpoint. And I actually do really think about that in terms of how I give feedback or even how I would approach a topic like burnout. So for someone who finds it difficult to trust other people and to be open about their feelings, especially their feelings of vulnerability, I'd be particularly aware of that and do a lot of normalizing and perhaps even a little bit of self-disclosure around how normal it is to feel burnout and what would they need to feel safe to talk about that. particularly after my reaction when you, you know, I mean, if I kind of internally go into a dismissive state, you know, a research partner asked me, could that be a bit of burnout? It really taught me, you know, that actually, no matter how good we think we are at creating safe spaces and conversations, and I asked so one people like you to be able to ask that to me, it's not always comfortable. So I try to remember that. PHIL: Yeah, and the attachment, supervisees attachment will probably have a bearing on the defence that you see, on what they're doing to defend and somebody that's anxious will perhaps, I think, go into an over caring part, they might talk very anxiously about their client and of course you've got to make sure that you're doing all the right. things from the point of safety but also you know is that a defense is that something it to explore what's going on for you how do you feel about this client how do you feel about your workload what's going on for you overall where somebody that's that's more avoidant probably wouldn't recognize it themselves refuse to recognize it deny it even no no no I'm alright no just a little bit frazzled Wendy Widdrington: Well, yeah, I think that's a really good point. And I think in my experience, sometimes what can happen is that just not being able to recognise it, pushing it down, pushing it down, and then all of a sudden there's a crisis. It comes to a head. And I think being able to be aware of the attachment. history of your supervisee can really make that difference sometimes because I know for example sometimes when somebody's reached out to me and it has been a breach of boundary, it's been a time in between sessions, but because of what I knew about them that they wouldn't normally do that, I responded differently to if that had been somebody who is perhaps more over anxious and reaching out a lot. I'm hoping that makes sense, but it's kind of just realising that it's about trust, isn't it? And for some people to reach out to you is such an expression of trust. And we've got to be tuned into that. think that's the other thing about attachment, it? Tuning in to where someone is and being willing to go with that. PHIL: Yeah, yeah, and think as supervisors if we've got a bit of a, if we can notice those defences and just check out is that an attachment defence? And it might not be, you know, and we might become hyper vigilant to it or to burn out, but it's okay, isn't it, for us to just to check it out and see what's going on for our supervisee Wendy Widdrington: Yeah, and actually speaking, I'm also thinking, I do try to weave in a whole work-life balance kind of discussion from the beginning. PHIL: And what was that, you told me a really great question that you ask at the start of most of your sessions. Wendy Widdrington: Yeah, I sometimes forget, but what I try to do is to weave in right at the very beginning, rather than a general, how are doing? Although sometimes I do just use that. But I might try and ask something just a bit different, like what's your work joy ratio at the moment? How would you say that was? I might sometimes say, just looking back over the last week, what was a moment of joy? Or when was the last time he had a really good belly laugh? And it may sound as though that's just going completely off track, but actually I'm just inviting the supervisor to think about the work-life balance really. And I also, you know, want it to be a safe space where people can talk about where they are in terms of whether they've got that balance right and how we might address that. Because I think Personal professional development in supervision is obviously really crucial and we need to be able to talk about ourselves a little bit within the boundaries so that we can provide good care and I think it's about destigmatising any shame around struggling, finding things difficult, normalising that. We do get that balance wrong sometimes and I'm always curious about private practice. because one of the Maslach areas that she says, we can go down the pathway to burnout in is the culture in a place or the, how much autonomy we have. Do we have a sense of belonging? So how do you, in private practice, how do you monitor or help yourself in terms of making sure you're not too far down the path of burnout or on it at all? PHIL: it is it is an interesting question isn't it in terms of when you're working for yourself and it's a really boring answer isn't it to say supervision but it's supervision and the people that around you the people that know you the best that that's that obviously they will probably notice it but you might get a bit of a response of no I'm fine you know or depending on what what your own attachment style is Wendy Widdrington: you've made me think, again, a big function of supervision is to prevent isolation. And we do get a bit blase, don't we all, you use supervision, but maybe as supervisors, just a reminder that we are that connection to, we are there to help ease the isolation and normalising the fact that we have ups and downs in our work and we have ups and downs of energy levels and pressures and just supervision being a space where you can talk about that. being approachable enough to do that and being able to just even say, how would I know if you were getting burnt out? And I think often at the beginning of supervisory relationships, that's a good place to do that. What is your stress signature? How would I know you're getting stressed? I think those sorts of questions can be really interesting. And you might have PHIL: Yeah. Wendy Widdrington: to play a little bit with self-disclosure around, know if I get stressed or if I'm going along the steps to burn out, I to get more irritable. PHIL: Yeah, again, you know, I love the way that you put that but. I remember on level five when we first started talking about self-disclosure in attachment-based psychotherapy and you know we all reacted to that differently. I was actually quite comfortable with it because as a supervisor of mine had really encouraged me with a particular client that I had that I shared lots of similarities with to self-disclose a bit because that would be really useful. I think it's fantastic if you know anything isn't it if you know somebody's has got a sense of what it is you're going through that's really helpful so yeah being able to as a supervisor say yeah I've had times you know when I felt burnt out and maybe this is what's happened you're not stealing their space you're just helping them to rationalise that that's okay. And going back to what you said there about those questions, that understanding that, you know, what does burnout look like for you or does stress look like for you? They're great things for a supervisor to know, aren't they? And your questions that you ask at the start about your joy rating or, sorry, I can't remember exactly how you put it, they're very wendy, aren't they? They're great questions to ask as you're creative and, yeah. Wendy Widdrington: Yeah, that's interesting isn't it? think you do use your personality isn't it? It's not about catching people off guard or anything but it's just, I think if you word things differently just takes us aback a little bit doesn't it and gives us space to really think about that. And I suppose one of the things, the advantages we've got, Phil, is that our supervisors, we can say, having done this piece of research on burnout, we want to talk about, make sure that we can normalise it and talk about it so we can kind of bring that in, can't we? PHIL: So let me ask you a question then. How have you used what you've learned about burnout, not only just to help you with your work, but how have you used that in your supervision? Because as supervisors we have supervision. We have supervision of supervision and we also have supervision Wendy Widdrington: Yeah. PHIL: of our caseloads. How's that coming to place for you? Wendy Widdrington: Well, that's an interesting question, isn't it? I think that... PHIL: Sorry, you weren't expecting that. Wendy Widdrington: No, I like them. Yeah, it's good. I think that, if I'm honest, what I found that I take to my supervision is what we found about the different... So if you move out of the secure and move along the scale into anxious or avoidant... In terms of burnout, there are different vulnerabilities depending on which side of the scale you're in. And I think I take to supervision now more awareness. If I'm starting to get a bit cynical, that is really unusual for me. So I'm on the lookout for that in myself and other people. And is that a sign of burnout? That depersonalization where we just not caring as much. And also the other bit about I most of us as cancers have imposter syndrome, you know, and where is that actually, that sense of, I'm not really achieving, I'm not doing very well, could that actually now be linked to burnout? So I think I maybe just make it, I'm linking it, those things to this area of And I think about, so how can stay in that, own secure state, window of tolerance. it's not just about the interpersonal facts for me, it's also about the circumstances. How can I get balance? And I use supervision a little bit more to think about that. What's gonna balance me in this situation? I'm hoping that makes sense. But. PHIL: Yeah, it does. I think, you know, knowing in yourself, and maybe this is a question to ask supervisees about, are you doing the things that help that joy rating? Have you got your holiday booked? you, you know, made sure that you're doing your daily walks or whatever it is, those things that, you know, make, Wendy Widdrington: you PHIL: I guess, more interesting, really, outside of work? That maybe Wendy Widdrington: Yeah. PHIL: when you... you're low on energy because you're burning out there's nothing else to burn that you could stop doing and go into that protective state where maybe we pick our phones up and doom scroll for an hour. Wendy Widdrington: Yeah, exactly. And that kind of race in mind where it's hard to switch off. I think the other thing around sort of which can be linked to attachment, know, people pleasing and striving, taking on too much and then feeling overcommitted. And then what do do? You know, maybe more. when we're more avoidant than not reaching out and getting help or support because we're not sure we can trust people to do that. So just having an eye on ourselves on how we are responding and trying to get that balance about connection is really helpful and I think. We could sit here and give a list of things that you can do. But actually, it's all about what is your nervous system needing? Deb Darner says that. What does your nervous system need in order to find that soothing and that balance? And that's different for all of us. It's knowing what makes Phil Phil, what makes me me, how we are. think the biggest thing that that research has done, I think, has just helped me keep an eye on and appreciate that in other people. There's just that spark of energy that makes everybody unique about who they are. And if we watch, we can see it. So like if I'm on Goodform, I do love words and I like, and I'm creative and I of like to have fun and I really kind of connected with you around that. So it's just watching out where if I start to get tired or worn down, I start to withdraw a little bit from that. And it's just watching for that spark, appreciating it in other people and just finding sensitive ways to have those courageous conversations to just say, how are you doing with your energy? Find the words that will help open those conversations. That's what I think I feel a bit more passionately about, about being curious about burnout and being safe to talk about it. PHIL: Yeah, yeah. I think you put that brilliantly. That really means something to me and perhaps it will to other people as well. I guess it's an unintended benefit of doing a research project really, isn't it? having gone into something in the depth we did, you can't help but... be immersed in that information. yeah, just having that question, having something that you're interested in to look at is really helpful. Just going completely off subject a little bit, But I just wonder, I was listening to a podcast the other day and they were talking about willpower. And they were talking, yeah, and talking about it was almost, is it this innate quality or is it something that we can all, and we can all find in ourselves? And I just wonder if there's an impact of, willpower, whatever that is, around attachments, styles around burnout. I don't know, I'm just hitting you with this now, aren't I? Wendy Widdrington: no, do you know what? Yeah, do you know what? What I've enjoyed actually about chatting with you today is that a few weeks have gone by from the end of the research and I think somebody on our course really succinctly described it as like a bit of a black hole because research does that doesn't it? know, it's an intense process and it draws you in and I feel like now actually having come out the other side it's really helpful for me to have a chat like this with you just to kind of reflect on what I've learned. But when we were chatting pre-podcast I thought about the other way you can burn out that I'm interested in is as carers. And the idea of chronic conditions, conditions that are there that we have to manage all the time. And I'd said something to you like, no, in an insecure attachment place that we go to. You can almost feel like a chronic condition sometimes in the sense that, you've got to keep regulating yourself. You've got to keep coming back to safety. And if you're in a more secure position, you're not necessarily able to think about that so much. So is that linked to this, do you think, this idea that of willpower? That's what it made me think of, that it's hard work sometimes. PHIL: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And actually going back on that point that you said there about attachment, you know, is your attachment style chronic? And I think that's where, know, earned security would say that it's not chronic because we can achieve earned security. How do you do that? Well, I suppose it's becoming your story itself, understanding your story, and I'll sometimes say this to clients, your story, it's the difference between knowing your story because we all know our story because we've been there. But then there's really understanding it. What's it done to us? And when you do that and you become this storied self, as we say, and perhaps understand your attachment style, or at least your defenses, then maybe that becomes more acute than chronic because it's still gonna come up at various times, but it doesn't necessarily have to define everything. Sorry, that was not really about willpower. But the willpower bit for me was, if you are, let's say, avoidantly attached and you're kind of told you should have more willpower, then that's probably gonna sit with you in a way of, like, yeah, I'll just get on with it, get my head down, I've got to sort this out. Maybe if you're anxious, and tell me what your ideas are, you'd be like... no, I'm missing willpower. What's wrong with me? Kind of thing. it's really interesting how maybe society says, well you've just got to more willpower. What is that? Is it an innate thing or is it something? And I listened to a postcard about it and they said, really is there any such thing as willpower or is it just putting into place good plans so that you do things? Wendy Widdrington: Yeah, and I suppose I'd ask for you actually to go right back to the beginning of this, I'd say, Phil, what's another word for willpower then? feel like in order to get into that, I'd need to kind of think more about, what is willpower? I suppose there's something about self-determination, isn't it? It's almost like it's your responsibility to do this. You've just got to find a way to do that, which is a more avoidant, comfortable place. Whereas if you have got a lack of self-belief, which traditionally longs more in the anxious angle, then you will immediately go to there's something wrong with me and I'm not enough, I haven't got enough, not enough. yeah, that is an interesting thought, isn't it? Willpower and managing things. PHIL: Yeah, it is because then if you are avoidant and you feel like you've got to just battle through everything, that means perhaps you won't talk about being burnt out. You'll just really try and power through it all the time. Wendy Widdrington: Yeah. PHIL: So yeah, and I'm sure it will have. interact with the different attachment styles and attachment defences in different ways. But again, it's just something that struck me because I'm not sure what another word for willpower is, it's almost, you've got great willpower because you've been out for a run. Well have you? Or did you just plan it and want to go for a run? I've got no willpower, I couldn't go for a run. Well, I don't really like running and it's raining. I didn't go for a run but we're perhaps judging it aren't we with you I should have more willpower. Yeah, and societally, you know, if we're being praised for willpower, then when you've got it, you might feel good, but be burnt out. And if you're lacking it, apparently, then you'll notice that that deficit and, you know, and that in itself could, well, will have a certain effect. I think this should this could maybe be a research project in itself. I don't know what was the question? Systematical view how does how does willpower interact with burnout and attachment styles? Blimey, we'd be doing it forever.