Darren: Hello welcome to Attach Together. The podcast where we explore all things attachment theory for counselors, psychotherapists and psychologists. Created by the team at Optima, providers of the level five and level seven diplomas in attachment-based psychotherapy. podcast is your space to deepen your understanding, ⁓ on your practice ⁓ stay connected to the heart of attachment-informed work. I'm a person-centered counselor and an attachment-based psychotherapist in private practice. ⁓ And me is Georgina Sturmer who is a counsellor, clinical supervisor and lecturer in counselling. She runs an online private practice offering counselling and supervision. you're newly qualified, fully qualified or simply passionate about attachment ⁓ in the right place. Now we start getting into I just need to be honest ⁓ Georgina and trained together when we studied the level 5 and we can still get a bit giddy when we're together. We'll try our hardest to stay on track for today's topic which is avoidant attachment. Georgina why you select this as your topic today? ⁓

Georgina: I think quite simply, it's something that I see so often in the therapy room. It's something that I experience with many of the clients that I work with. And I'm always so curious about how it plays out in the room and how we experience it inside ourselves as therapists too.

Darren: why you give us a quick rundown on what we mean ⁓ avoiding attachment.

Georgina: Yeah, absolutely. I suppose when we're talking about attachment, what we're really thinking about is the fact that from the moment we're born, we look to our caregivers to really figure out how can I elicit their affection and their attention and their love. And so there's a process of learning what types of behaviours are acceptable or unacceptable in our families. And when we think about avoidant attachment, what we're often looking at is someone who grew up in a family or in an environment where closeness didn't really feel safe. maybe where emotions just simply weren't encouraged ⁓ maybe where ⁓ were more likely to be praised if we were really independent and really able to get on with everything ourselves. ⁓ so I think it's those that sense of pulling away, that sense of independence that we really see in someone who is avoidantly attached.

Darren: So you, what do you notice ⁓ the counselling room that would be, what are the clues that we might be working with someone with an avoidant attachment style?

Georgina: Well, I guess the clues even start really before we're even working with someone. You know, we we start noticing things from the first moment a client makes contact because everything is communication, isn't it, in therapy? And so what we might see when someone makes contact is they might be very brief, they might be very factual, they might be even being sent to therapy. Maybe someone has said you need to go to therapy. This is going to be good for you. And then when we meet with them and we speak to them, there's a few things that we might notice. We might notice that Actually, they describe that everything is really fine. There aren't really any problems. They're used to how things are going, but maybe there's something underneath that isn't quite working. what we also start to notice that I think is really important in the therapy room is what we experience ourselves, ⁓ that counter-transference. And so with someone who is avoidantly ⁓ ⁓ we're likely to feel ⁓ a sense of distance, ⁓ a sense of kind of flatness or almost being ⁓ by them.

Darren: Yeah, I can definitely relate have to say I've had fewer clients I maybe have of the other attachment styles. ⁓ So feel like I have ⁓ less to draw on and in the same way that's a clue to avoidance it? I think they are ⁓ an avoidant person is quite less inclined ⁓ to maybe sign and to speak about themselves and to look things. nature they would avoid kind of personal reflection. I don't know what your experience is of that but ⁓ they're less of my caseload.

Georgina: Yeah, I would absolutely agree. think that we are less likely to see avoidantly attached clients kind of readily running into therapy. But what we might see ⁓ is with different levels ⁓ of almost at different parts of their journey. So we might have that person who's really highly defended, who's been told, ⁓ therapy will be good for you. You should go and talk about your feelings. ⁓ And maybe they're quite reluctant or they're not ready. ⁓ But we might also get further down the line ⁓ is who, yes, maybe their attachment style is avoidant. and they have defences that would sit with that, but they are really kind of ready to accept the idea of talking about their feelings and connecting with a therapist and I think that is when this work can be so utterly rewarding.

Darren: It really is rewarding when it ⁓ the relationship develops ⁓ the work unfolds. Well, you start off sometimes from a place of how am I ever going to work with this client? Is this Am I just rubbish? ⁓ this because that whole transference, transference, transference playing out, isn't there? ⁓ And it's ⁓ yeah, it leaves me feeling quite ⁓ underskilled sometimes. And I think, ⁓ OK, ⁓ two on the floor, back to my core conditions, we're in the room, let's work with what comes. that has always ⁓ of seen me through those early weeks. ⁓ the work does unfold. So as an avoidant keeps turning up, something is playing

Georgina: Yeah, and there's so much there in what you've just said, Darren, isn't there? That sense of feeling de-skilled, that sense of really, really challenged, as therapists, wanting our client to feel comfortable with us, wanting our client to be able to explore their emotions and to understand where they come from, but to be met with someone who maybe just has really, really high defences in place. When we think about avoiding attachment, I like to think about Stan Tatkin's written this book

Darren: Hmm.

Georgina: Wired Love ⁓ and in there he this great metaphor ⁓ to describe different attachment He talks about anchors, islands and waves. I don't know if you've come across it. ⁓ So the idea is...

Darren: No, I'm reading that book right now. That's really strange that you should mention that, but I'm on page 32 or something. yeah, yet to read most of it.

Georgina: So you've got loads to get into. what he describes is someone who's securely attached, he would describe as an anchor. who ⁓ an anxious or preoccupied attachment, so he would describe as a wave. So if you imagine a wave on the beach kind of crashing in and pulling back, crashing in and pulling back, ⁓ kind of always, always reaching out. ⁓ then the way that he uses this metaphor of an island to describe someone who is avoidantly attached. And I think that can be really helpful. It's a metaphor that I often use with clients. And ⁓ think it's a really useful way for us to imagine what they feel like. Because if you are an island and you feel safe being an island, then having a therapist connect with you or attempt to build a relationship with you is at first maybe going to feel quite threatening. know, like someone's landing their soldiers on your shore and you're not really ready to accept them.

Darren: And that's, one of those really visual examples that saves us thousands of words in my opinion because it can really understand what that metaphor ⁓ is getting that sense of ⁓ being fixed being alone actually not being impenetrable, you know, we can our boats up we can ⁓ go and and then leave and and and they stay who they are but doesn't mean that we can't connect with them at all.

Georgina: Exactly, and you know sometimes this might feel really frightening for them and that's okay because we will work at a pace that feels right for our client. We will care about things feeling safe and comfortable for them and we will just notice what that connection looks like. We'll notice how high the wall is or how far we have to cross the drawbridge and all of those sorts of things in order to understand what it is that we're working with.

Darren: And you've just reminded me, when I was teaching about avoidance, within the level five qualification just before Christmas. I remember saying that actually this is, and it came as a surprise to a few members of the group, ⁓ just start needn't be ⁓ You know, looking at building a relationship ⁓ before we into the work. actually building that can often mean doing the exact thing that feels completely alien to us as therapist, which is not getting into the emotions too quickly, because that can be really off putting for someone who has avoided their emotions for long time. That the heart of the work is around feeling safe. then once we feel safe, we can then unfold move into that emotional space ⁓ because the will feel safe enough to do so. ⁓ And bit that I think that really surprised students ⁓ was when shared that with my clients sometimes I just get out a pack of cards for a session or two and we'll just cards and we'll have a chat about life while playing cards. But it's just a of a distraction, takes away the nature of one-to-one eye contact and the focus being on the Because all of those things I found can be what makes an avoidant client feel really quiet. of place in a therapy room.

Georgina: Yeah, absolutely. Because an avoidant person has probably always felt like their feelings are really unwelcome. You know, they probably grew up in a home where we didn't talk about our feelings. We shut everything away. We are independent. We look after ourselves. And so if we feel like we're going to walk into a therapy room and our therapist is going to poke and prod and ask about all our feelings on day one, actually that's going to make us raise our wall up higher. what we need to think about is those careful, slow, gentle ways, building safety, playing cards, whatever it is that we need to do to build that relationship so that we can get them to disengage from their thinking brain and move into their emotional brain without feeling like they're under attack, without feeling like they're going to be ashamed or embarrassed by talking about their feelings.

Darren: If they do feel like they're shamed or embarrassed or under attack, what are we likely to see happen in the room?

Georgina: I think we're likely to see them withdraw.

Darren: Hmm

Georgina: and we're likely to see their really ingrained defences coming in. So what we often notice with attachment based therapy is that different attachment positions will have different defences that we're likely to see. And with an avoidantly attached client, we're likely to see sessions staying very kind of cognitive. really talk, lots of talk about thinking, but not so much talk about feeling. We're often likely to see intellectualizing. So, know, kind of maybe asking questions about theory. or talking about things that they've read, almost talking about themselves as if they're not there. sometimes we might also ⁓ our avoidant clients make a lot of jokes, you know, using humour or minimising their experiences as a way of deflecting us from the feelings that are inside that are really, really heavily defended.

Darren: What do we do when they're saying the jokes Georgina? Sometimes I'm inclined to go along with it and sometimes... I'm really inclined not to. If you ask me how to define I would and when I wouldn't, I don't know. It's just a ⁓ general feeling I get sometimes that, okay, this is ⁓ building and we're having a laugh. ⁓ it's something about self-depreciation putting a client down that depends on tone of the joke for me. Do you have a take on that? ⁓

Georgina: really think this is about our spidey senses I was talking about this this week with some of my learners we were doing some skills work and we were talking about what happens if your client a joke. And we were talking about how this is about using those spidey senses. This is about tuning in and thinking what right in this moment? Am I just a human being who's gonna laugh because my client has said something funny or actually is this a really significant matter? moment where maybe it's important that I don't laugh. It's important that I give them a sense of actually I care about learning more about them and I'm not just here for the jokes. They don't have to perform for me because often our clients who use a lot of humour are very heavily defended clients. They've done that to make people like them what we want our clients to know is they don't have to be funny and they don't have to perform and we will like them anyway.

Darren: We will like them anyway. ⁓ they're accepted this space for who they are. They don't have to entertain. But that's ⁓ quite a message get through to people with defences that are high, I guess. And consistency is key, isn't with client group?

Georgina: Yeah, absolutely. think that... You know, this is stuff that we kind of do with our whole being. You know, this isn't about us. We don't just say something really clever and it builds that connection. It's about showing up every week, being consistent, being kind, being empathic, being real and being human with our clients, but understanding that those defenses have formed for a reason. And so we're not there to smash those walls down. We are there to help them to see that the walls are there, first of all, because often a very avoidantly attached client won't

Darren: Mm-hmm.

Georgina: have that awareness that they've got this big wall up, they will probably have always been told that they're really strong because they're so independent. So it's about helping them to work out what the emotional cost is of that for them. And then also helping them to think about, what might life be like without that defense? What would happen if you went out and saw your friends and you weren't the joker? Or what would happen if you went into work and you didn't take on every single task for everybody? What are you scared of? and what might happen.

Darren: And yet... And yet all of what you've just described is exactly what society has probably told them makes them an amazing person. You're so stoic, you can part with everything, you're so helpful, really great to have on the team, you're a safe pair of hands. ⁓ of those messages that just reinforce ⁓ unhelpful ⁓ because they come at a cost, don't they? They really do come at a cost for an person for avoidant client in the room. ⁓

Georgina: Yeah, and the cost that we often see is not what you might expect. It's often what I often see is a really high level of anxiety or a really low mood and people not really understanding why it's there. And it's only when we start to explore these defenses that we really see, well, this is there because of how you're having to carry yourself in everyday life. And I think something that can be quite helpful with a client who's always been praised for their independence is to introduce, you know, not always in terms of education, it can be quite subtle, but to introduce the idea that maybe they're not independent, maybe they are what Bowlby called compulsively self-reliant. And I think that can help us to really understand that this independence is actually something that feels like something we have to do rather than something that we choose to do.

Darren: And actually, you... say that and define it in that terms reminds me of something else I've heard you say in the past about actually is not procrastination. although we're saying ⁓ that we can many as an avoidant ⁓ person may receive many plaudits for being avoidant ⁓ in ways actually they face the judgment of others as general sense out there might be that an avoidant person is a procrastinator because they put things off ⁓ ⁓ don't just get on with stuff ⁓ they avoid it. ⁓

Georgina: Yes, yes, we've spoken about this in the past, haven't we, Darren? I think often when people hear the word avoidant, you know, I've heard people say things like, well, you know, I haven't done my homework, it's because I'm so avoidant, or I haven't done this, it's because I'm so avoidant. And actually, from an attachment perspective, that's a bit of a misunderstanding of what this word is, because being an avoidant isn't about putting off things or about procrastinating. It's actually more about... pulling away. It's more about protecting yourself. And so whether you are avoidantly attached or anxiously attached isn't necessarily going to be linked to your productivity. But if you are avoidantly attached, then you are likely to just put yourself a little bit on the outside of things just pull away when other people get a bit close.

Darren: just pull away, that of creating space.

Georgina: Yeah, yeah. we might, you know, and internally that might come out in all sorts of ways. You know, someone who is avoidantly attached believe that everyone hates them, or someone who is avoidantly attached might fantasize about running away. You know, and both of those things will be built on this kind of inner fear that the world is going to reject them if there is closeness.

Darren: So just thinking further on in the work now. And we've mentioned how ⁓ the might play out early on in the work. And it was something you said a second ago that just made me think, okay, work with putting these defenses down, ⁓ I think we need to really acknowledge the fact that those defenses have kept our clients feeling safe. And we have a real duty ⁓ for clients to still feel safe even without those defenses. ⁓ And about equipping them with some new tools. And ⁓ we to be really mindful that ⁓ bad things in life will still happen new tools and defenses ⁓ be needed. ⁓ what happens next? What happens at that point? We're halfway through the work, we're later on in the work, and the defenses have come down. What happens next?

Georgina: So this is really about stewarding our client, if we like, into a new way of being in the world. You know, so thinking about if they've taken down those walls or they're thinking about taking down these walls, what can we replace them with? And so there are a couple of different ways that we might approach this in therapy. yes, we may well help our client to understand things attachment and about ⁓ they relate to the world. ⁓ We also might help them really think about what they're imagining in everyone else's heads, because that's a really important part of attachment-based therapy. But I think also what we are doing is creating a relationship where they can try something different. Building a relationship where they don't feel rejected, where they do feel safe, where they feel like they can try out different things or feel a sense of closeness with us. And so I think it's all of those things together. And then building resources for them. know, thinking about, well, next time something goes wrong, instead of running away, I wonder what else you could do. I wonder what other resources you might have and allowing them to be curious about what it might be like to lean on other people a bit more.

Darren: Yeah, and encouraging the client to be curious about themselves and their own world, I think is such a powerful tool. Okay, you ⁓ much ⁓ what we've covered there, Georgina. I just wonder, if we think about avoidant is there one takeaway that like ⁓ listeners to take away them?

Georgina: I think what's really important about avoidant attachment is that although it appears to be someone who doesn't want closeness, actually what we know is that underneath we are all human beings who deeply crave closeness and we crave connection, but it's just that someone who is avoidant grew up in an environment which made them a bit scared of seeking that closeness.

Darren: We'll return with a dilemma in just a moment, but before that, just wanted to take a quick pause to share something that we've created for counsellors and psychotherapists who may be feeling the weight of the work. We'd love to invite you to Restoring Your Secure Base, an attachment-informed therapist retreat designed to help you pause, reflect, and reconnect with yourself, your work, and a community of counsellors and therapists who truly understand. It's two days away from the everyday with attachment based teaching, shared reflection and a time to rest and reset in a calm, supportive environment. excitingly, Linda Cundy will be giving a talk and answering your questions. this be one of the last events she attends before retires after an incredible career, research, teaching and writing about therapy and the pivotal role that attachment plays. are holding it at the Odney Club near Maidenhead in Berkshire which is close to the M3, M4, M25 and M40 ⁓ if you haven't heard of the Odney Club ⁓ Wind in the Willows ⁓ the grounds inspired the stories and the setting. So you're feeling stretched, disconnected or simply in need of professional nourishment ⁓ this could be exactly what you need. Network, have a break and enjoy a gong bath, stretching and eight hours of CPD including workshops and experiential learning. find out more ⁓ register ⁓ to OptimaHealthServices.co.uk slash ⁓ hyphen We're at the part where we look at a dilemma and this week is a fairly common one I'd say, particularly for clients who've just started a private practice. it's that clients are contacting them out of session time more frequently and the therapist just isn't sure how to handle it. What would you do with that Georgina?

Georgina: Yeah, so I was thinking about this one because we know Darren, don't we, that there is a big change. There's a big shift when we move from maybe agency work and an agency context into running our own private practice. we are the place that people will come to if they need to contact us in between sessions. And of course, that's absolutely fine if they want to change their session time or all the other admin that is required. But something that we often talk about in counseling training, isn't it, is when clients start to show different ways of operating around these boundaries that we set. So if as a therapist you're starting to notice that a client in particular emailing you more often, calling you more often, sending you messages more in between sessions, I ⁓ there's kind of counselling 101 way that we're taught ⁓ to that, aren't we? ⁓ We're to really think about, we must hold our strong boundaries so that we can be professional. And that's absolutely the case. Boundaries are really important to being ⁓ ethical ⁓ But I find really interesting from an attachment perspective is that sometimes there are nuances to how we might want to think about holding our boundaries. So if as a therapist we know that our client is anxiously attached, then we know that holding those boundaries is going to be such an important part of reinforcing for them what it is like to be held and cared for in a consistent way. However, if we are working with an avoidantly attached client, so like we've been discussing today, and we start to notice that they may be contacting us a bit more between sessions, that's such a moment when I would suggest that perhaps you might want to pause and think about actually what that means because for an avoidantly attached client to contact us a bit more or to push on a little boundary in some ways something that means maybe that they're shifting ⁓ that they feel that we're a bit more ⁓ reach and that there is that relationship that is strengthening there ⁓ while we would still respond in the same professional way you know maybe ⁓ sure that we're covering off any emergencies and then suggesting you know let's pick the up again in the next session, we might want to bring that in. We might want to talk to them about what was it like for you to contact me and how did it feel when I responded that way. ⁓ so making sure that our response to that boundary challenge is really, really attachment informed.

Darren: really inclined to agree with you actually and I about this quite often that... The role of the therapist in psychotherapy ⁓ often to replicate ⁓ role of a secure base. And think that's probably true of therapy more widely too. ⁓ That really, ⁓ are secure base from which ⁓ when think of the secure child, ⁓ you ⁓ with secure base, who's often mum or dad, ⁓ and child can run away and play knowing that they have somewhere that they can return to and check in. when they need it. And actually, if we're offering ourselves as a secure base for our clients, and that client just needs to quickly run back and check in with us, then maybe actually the odd bit of between checking in is be really important for that relationship to develop and for us to be trusted as that secure base. ⁓ There's a limit ⁓ within we find ⁓ to comfortable. ⁓ or problematic. ⁓ ⁓ a quick bit of reassurance every here and there ⁓ even just will you be at the session? Have I got the time right? ⁓ me, when a client asks around the time, it's often I ⁓ is really about the time or is this about just checking in that I'll be there for you? And I ⁓ that's not be underestimated.

Georgina: ⁓

Darren: Before today's pod finishes, I just wanted to mention our courses. And I said before that we trained together, didn't we Georgina, on the level five. Reflecting back on that, I just wonder what that course meant for you.

Georgina: Well, I think in terms of my professional development, it completely transformed my practice. back now, I think I work in an entirely different way with my clients. I learned so much about ⁓ ways that attachment can bring something new to that relationship. ⁓ it also transformed the way I see myself, the way I operate ⁓ my relationships, and also in how I approach supervision and teaching and all the other parts of my practice.

Darren: And you've mentioned supervision, that's one of the components that the Level 7 covers, which you're currently studying the Level 7, aren't you? I just wondered how that was going for you.

Georgina: Yes, absolutely. So the Level 7 covers a whole range of advanced clinical skills. So we look at supervision, we look at couples work, we look at advanced trauma work, and there's also a research project. So it's all aligned with the BACP scoped column C competencies. ⁓ for me, it's been an incredibly rich journey. It's been about bringing together these new strands to my practice, but also deepening that understanding of attachment and of myself. ⁓ and having these new skills that I can offer to my clients, to my supervisees and to my students.

Darren: Thank you so much for sharing that and thank you for being with us on the podcast today Georgina, I really value the time that you've given us. And if you'd like to learn more about our level five and level seven diplomas in attachment theory and attachment-based psychotherapy, you can find full details at OptimaHealthServices.co.uk. next courses begin in September and they really are now filling up. ⁓ do take a look if you're thinking of joining us. Thanks listening to Attach Together ⁓ and see you next time. Ta-da!