Jo Oxley: Hello and welcome to Attach Together, the podcast where we explore attachment theory and what it really means in practice for counsellors, psychotherapists and psychologists. The podcast is created by the team at Optima who deliver the level five and level seven diplomas in attachment based psychotherapy. It's a space designed to help you deepen your understanding, reflect on your clinical work and stay connected to the heart of attachment informed practice. I'm Jo, your host for today, and I'm the founder of Optima and creator of the Level 5 and Level 7 courses, as well as an attachment psychotherapist and supervisor. Before we begin today, a quick note, our episodes now include a CPD certificate. If you'd like to access this, you can visit our website or check the show notes if you're listening on Spotify. I will share the website at the end of the episode. Joining me today, I'm delighted to welcome Joe Bealy, an attachment and relationship therapist, clinical supervisor, and tutor in attachment based psychotherapy. Jo is passionate about helping people understand how early relationships shape emotional well-being, connection, and resilience. Known for her warm, engaging, and down-to-earth style, Jo is passionate about making attachment theory accessible. meaningful, supporting both clients and practitioners to create lasting relational change. Welcome Jo, thank you for joining me today. Jo Bealey: Thank you for having me. Jo Oxley: So we we're gonna explore EMDR and attachment today. So I wonder if you can just give me a quick overview of of what that that kind of looks like. Jo Bealey: Sure, EMDR is an amazing therapy and it can be a therapy that can be, create shifts for clients so quickly, more so than sometimes talking therapy can because of that processing and the brain rewiring. But I think an aspect, I know we touched on it in my training, but I think we may be kind of. miss it sometimes is how attachment shows up in the room whilst doing empty. Jo Oxley: So there's kind of a layer, this sounds like. There there's this Jo Bealey: Yes. Jo Oxley: layer of EMDR that you can do, but then something is underneath that. Jo Bealey: Yes, that's it. And it's a bit like how we know attachment plays out in the therapy room. There's no difference to that. There is. And it kind of, it can help us understand how, depending on a client's attachment, how that's going to shape and create their EMDR experience. Maybe what's expected of them, how they need to kind of... You know, some clients think, am I doing this right? Am I performing? Am I doing okay here? Am I being a good client? Some people find it, yeah, so I find it really uncomfortable of maybe going through their trauma and processing that whilst being seated with the therapist so close. And, you know, they may kind of view that as a bit intrusive and really uncomfortable and maybe puts a bit of... stickiness with the processing because of it. Jo Oxley: Right, so what I'm hearing then is is EMDR is is a really useful clinical experience but actually it could get quite tricky depending on the client's trauma. Jo Bealey: Yes, yes that's exactly Jo Oxley: Okay. Jo Bealey: it, relational background. Jo Oxley: Okay, so I I guess from a therapeutic point of view, I'm wondering then what might be the you know, what might be needed for the therapist to to feel confident if they're being confronted with this stickiness should we say? Jo Bealey: Yeah, and I think you put it really well before when you said about the layers, because there are so many layers to it, you you begin with this, the target memory, and then the client's reaction, how they perceive themselves in relation to that target memory. And then quite often that... relationship to the trauma is then connected to their upbringing and relational expectations placed on them and how that shaped their attachment. Jo Oxley: So part of the process of EMDR maybe uncovers some what we would term in attachment, an inner working model of how they are how they treat themselves, how they expect to be treated in the world, how they expect others to treat them. Is is that is that what I'm is that Jo Bealey: Yes, that's it. Because one aspect of the EMDR is looking at the core beliefs that Jo Oxley: Right. Jo Bealey: they hold around that trauma. Jo Oxley: Mm-hmm. Jo Bealey: And I quite often view those beliefs as inner working models. It can be quite, as you begin to map out the EMDR protocol and their history around that trauma. It can be really insightful. It can be quite a quick way of an insightful way of understanding that client's relational background and that Jo Oxley: Right. Jo Bealey: working model and of what sits underneath that. Jo Oxley: So it sounds like the two modalities can Jo Bealey: Mm. Jo Oxley: really complement each other if you've got the understanding of I guess the attachment lens can help you understand the client's internal world from an attachment perspective as you're going through that EMDR process. Jo Bealey: Yeah, yeah, that's it and how comfortable they are even with that beginning process of EMDR. You know, through that stage one of mapping things out. And if you've got a client who maybe has more of an anxious attachment, to be able to try and map that out without going into detail and that creating a whole session's sessions in itself. can be really hard of having to hold parts of that back. Jo Oxley: Yeah, as you said that I was just thinking crumbs, yes, for someone with a preoccupied attachment style, you know, often what we see with that is a lot of storytelling, a lot of trying to get, that that connection. If I keep telling you you'll stay with me type thing. And what you're saying is an EMDR, then actually clients are asked to keep keep that to themselves. Is that you right? Right. Jo Bealey: Yeah that's right and you know what can be the appeal for some is that you don't need to go into detail you just need to know the who the what and the when. Jo Oxley: I could imagine that that would appeal more to those with a more sort of avoidant attachment style. Would there be any pitfalls to that then? You know, that is this kind of a quick fix? I Jo Bealey: Yes and no. mean, the priority in EMDR is obviously, in any therapy, is that client feeling safe and to be safe enough to process and for EMDR, for them to feel grounded enough that that EMDR can take it where it needs to go and them not to kind of become dysregulated because of it. But you may find those with maybe more avoidant tendencies are keen to just process it. They're just keen to, they'll give you the who, the what and the when. And just keen to get going, and I guess because I did my attachment training first and then I went on to EMDR. What struck me that there can be. why it's attachment of the therapist. Because through this process, because you're not asking for a huge amount of data, you're checking in for safety all the time and helping them find that really safe place to ground them and bring them back to regulation where they can go through the work. But the essence of EMDR in some respects is the relationship, but not all. so that can, for me, I find that that's my own coming into that, my own bits coming into that. you know, for the avoidant client who wants to come in and just process, just get on with it, just fix it and get out. And to have that detached Jo Oxley: Yeah. Jo Bealey: works quite well. Jo Oxley: Yeah, I I mean strikes me I I think is is there it makes sense to me h having done your attachment based training first where we kind of focus so much don't we on the on the relationship being the vehicle for change and you know Jo Bealey: you Jo Oxley: finding safety in relationship particularly in that rutch and repair and I know this is something that Gav and Arouge were talking about in our podcast, you know, how important that is. to be able to tolerate rupture a and to Jo Bealey: you Jo Oxley: find and to have that new experience of repair. And I guess what you're saying with ENDR is it's very much an a a client's own internal process that they are settling. I don't know if that's the right word settling, but that's Jo Bealey: Yeah. Jo Oxley: the word to me. Jo Bealey: Yeah, that's right. And you're very much alongside all of it. And I guess it's that rather than the relationship be the repair, you're kind of relying on the processing to do the repairing. Jo Oxley: Okay. And and that's the the rapid eye movement, isn't it? So that Jo Bealey: Yes. Yes. Jo Oxley: that works with changing the way the brain has processed Jo Bealey: Yes. Jo Oxley: that? Jo Bealey: So you're interrupting, a bit like flesh, you're interrupting that memory and Jo Oxley: That's all right. Jo Bealey: kind of removing that emotional charge from the memory. That's the goal. Jo Oxley: Yeah. Jo Bealey: For me personally, mean EMDR therapists, a like every other therapy, I think they will have that, you have your protocol, but perhaps you bring your own kind of style to it. And I ensure that safety and that relational safety. in the early sessions before any processing is done. But I imagine if maybe you were perhaps a more avoidant leaning therapist, that you maybe have that detachment in the room. You if you've got an avoidant client and a more avoidant therapist, it could stay very... Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Jo Oxley: There could be some collusion, couldn't there? Let's just get this done. Jo Bealey: Yeah. Get it processed and you know... People have different ways, depending how you're processing as well. Some people use the fingers, some people have a bar where a client will follow the lights on this light bar. I use my laptop and I have software and I put them in headphones and I give them buzzes. So it is a very different experiential therapy where I'm sitting beside them, but it's very tech reliant. And if we didn't have the safety of that relationship, I imagine how might experience, a client might experience that differently depending on their attachment strategies. Jo Oxley: Yeah. I think what I'm picking up from you, Joe, is there's a a little bit of a you know, sort of a safety for you in having that attachment base to rely on to come back to, to have, created that safety in that relationship. So then the EMDR can be I think what I'm hearing you say is is kinda as effective as it can be, because you you can work with the Anything underlying that that comes up. Jo Bealey: Yeah, that's it. Because inevitably it does. Jo Oxley: Right, okay. That's your experience that often Jo Bealey: Yes. Jo Oxley: there is more to what's going on. Jo Bealey: Yeah, because it brings me back to that relationship to the trauma Jo Oxley: Yes sir. Jo Bealey: and how they feel about themselves reacting to it. they ashamed perhaps? Or are they not good enough and having to carry this trauma? And it kind of drip feeds. find thread goes all the way through to that attachment, early attachment experience. who they needed to be, how they needed to handle things, how they were Jo Oxley: Yeah. Jo Bealey: expected to go through life, how they were expected to show up. And this, you know, it was explained to me, and I think it's a lovely way of describing it, of when we're processing, we begin with this target memory, this traumatic event, or maybe a series of traumatic events. And it's a bit like sitting on a train where you stay the same, but all the scenery is constantly changing. So when you've got one traumatic memory, the brain has a brilliant way of kind of all these other memories attached to similar feelings of the traumatic memory, that belief, that internal working model, way of taking them that through that, you know, down memory lane. of every time they've experienced that core belief and how that's played out for them. Jo Oxley: It's almost like a touchstone, isn't it? Every Jo Bealey: Yeah. Jo Oxley: imagine the scenery flas flashing past and every time you sort of see a cow in a field it it reminds you of that whatever is attached to that, that's what you're seeing. So you Jo Bealey: Yeah. Jo Oxley: can process that with the EMDR or Jo Bealey: Yeah, you can and it has a brilliant way of kind of processing that thread, you know, starting with that touch point and going through. But depending on that client's experience both in that therapeutic relationship, you know, they need to feel safe enough to even to be able to go there. to visit that scenery, to visit those old places. And so, you know, and it can be really hard when they're visiting those places for them not to, well, depending on their attachment strategy, you if I go back to that more preoccupied, they want to get off the train and talk about what's happening. at each stop. Jo Oxley: Yes. They need to get off the train and talk about what's happening. That that's their their need to do that. And I think for me, obviously, I I am sort of attachment through and through. If you cut me in half I would have attachment, I think, like a piece of rock. Jo Bealey: you Jo Oxley: and and and I I was thinking as you were talking, well how then does the client start to create their own story? Because Bobby says, you know, part of us you know becoming a whole. is for us to to make sense of our story and to dilute that shame, to put that shame down, to know that actually it wasn't that we were mad or bad it was because actually what what was available to us wasn't perhaps enough or, wasn't what we needed. maybe there was a mismatch, you know, Bobby talks about goodness of fit, doesn't he? in in the family system. and I do Flash myself. Flash is like a really small part of EMDR and it's excellent in my opinion for helping clients who have experienced real traumatic events. Process that in a way that they don't have to revisit it. like you said you know it it sort of deep discharges the the intensity and I've experienced this myself. Yeah I experienced flashbacks for many many years and I had a couple of sessions of flash and and they disappeared completely. so I buy into how this does work, you know, with the brain, because the brain is we know that neuroscience is is extraordinary. But I think what I'm picking up from you and and my own experience of of using Flash alongside attachment based psychotherapy is there is still a need for the client to become a storied self, to make sense of their story. Jo Bealey: Yes, yeah, that's it. And I think that's why it can be such an important aspect for it to be handled with care, you know, that attachment aspect of it. and to look at what is needed relationally as well as that, you know, brilliant processing aspect of the work. But in order for that processing to happen and for it to process the best it possibly can, what else might be needed in the room whilst we're doing the therapy? Jo Oxley: And I'm wondering about say from an attachment perspective, there's a mourning process sometimes for clients to be able to mourn what wasn't. because often the the problem isn't what was done. The problem often with an attachment wound and how we develop these inner working models. It is is about what wasn't done, what wasn't attuned to, what wasn't repaired, what wasn't acceptable, etcetera. and part of an attachment phase would be to mourn that loss. Jo Bealey: It's Yeah, no, absolutely. That's it. And I think it's giving them that space, you know, to get off at that stop and see where Jo Oxley: Yeah. Jo Bealey: they've been. And it can be really overpowering, you know, of whether actually what it's just a vote to revisit those places. And, you know, when they've just been on this journey. and just realise what actually what a massive impact it was when they've been taken back there. You know, and I always, for me personally, when I do EMT, I allow that time for a massive debriefing afterwards. So you actually be processing and then to come back, sit down and go, well, what happened? What was that like? How is that for you? And for them to have a chance to kind of... be held in that place Jo Oxley: So how does that grieving process then, you know, integrate with the EMDR Joe? Jo Bealey: In some ways it can be quite brilliant because as you're processing, you're processing all the emotions that came with that memory. One of those being grief. So it kind of helps that memory and or that emotional charge. But I guess what you're then left with is perhaps a new perspective of how things were. Maybe Jo Oxley: Right. Jo Bealey: what was missed or what happened and what didn't happen. And it's being able to kind of, again, feel regulated enough. for your client to be able to hold that as a part of the work. And I think maybe, and I don't know how it is for you, Jo, that sometimes when clients come to therapy, they haven't, you know, who haven't experienced therapy before, that grief and loss can be quite a shock. It's an unexpected element of the work. Jo Oxley: Yeah. So a bit like Flash then, EMDR kind of allows them to process that without actually having to get too far into it. And they come out with this Jo Bealey: Yes. Jo Oxley: new perspective. Jo Bealey: Mm. Jo Oxley: I guess that's what we are linking in a way to Bowlby's store itself. They can change that that story. Jo Bealey: Yeah, and maybe that belief they carried about themselves in relationship to that Jo Oxley: Yeah. Jo Bealey: trauma or about that trauma, that shifts. Jo Oxley: Wow. That that's that's that's a really interesting perspective. So I'm wondering then what because in in attachment terms we're always talking about what's co created in the room because we've Jo Bealey: Thank Jo Oxley: got the client's attachment style but also we've got as the therapist's attachment style and one of the things that we work hard to help on the level five diploma. is to bring into awareness those attachment strategies and tendencies of the therapist to work through those to to what we call earn security so that we can be more of a secure base for our clients. So how does that impact with EMDR? Jo Bealey: And I think that's really interesting. I think of the blog that you wrote, Jo, about attachment in EMDR. And that, you know, what happens, because it does happen, when the processing gets stuck, when they get to a certain place and it kind of goes, nothing's happening. And that, you know, you're both kind of like, ooh. The client's kind of going, I doing this right? I getting it wrong? What's happening? And if we bring it to what the therapist can go through of, know, how they handle that, that stuckness with the client and the processing of what's happening there, you know, is the tendency for that therapist to kind of get a bit panicky and try and rescue? Or do they kind of step back and they go, I don't know, maybe you're done. and they have that detachment. Jo Oxley: Okay. Jo Bealey: Or do they, you know, how do they tolerate that uncertainty for the client? And I think it can be really important for a therapist to be so aware of their own attachment and how it plays out because of when these moments come up, especially Jo Oxley: This one. Jo Bealey: in EMDR. Jo Oxley: So it feels like it's really essential that we know ourselves if we're going to be using these approaches. Jo Bealey: Yes, that's right. And I think of a colleague, we were discussing EMDR and when a client got stuck, you know, she blamed herself of what had she done wrong. Had she targeted the wrong memory, the wrong belief? Had she missed a step in the protocol and it took her down this horrible shame spiral. And it was hard for her to get out of it, of being a bit apologetic to the clients and what could she do? And it kind of became... her fault and actually had maybe being able to have that zoom out lens in the room of going actually what's happening for the client what's making this stop is it getting too intense for them are they feeling too uncomfortable the therapist there do they want to get off and talk about it has their system had enough you know so understanding our own attachment allows us to step back from it and see what's being played out in the room and like you say being really curious about that rather than Jo Oxley: A ver Jo Bealey: yes. Jo Oxley: it it seems like, from a supervisory perspective, it also would be really sort of useful to have that attachment lens when you're Jo Bealey: you Jo Oxley: supervising E N D R work so that you can be curious about what's being co created in the room, I guess. Yeah. Jo Bealey: Yeah, absolutely. I think of how the security put it, know, hidden in plain sight. Jo Oxley: Can you say a bit more about that, Jo? Jo Bealey: The idea that when we can step back from things, it's kind of going, of course it was there, of course that's happening. that when we're in it and reacting to it in that space of reacting rather than responding, you know, to use circular security language that they hear the shark music, their shark music is too loud that they can't react from a place of perhaps security of going actually what else might be happening here. Jo Oxley: They've just gone past their own cow in the field. And that's triggered their their own scenery type thing. Jo Bealey: Yes, yes, yeah, that's it. Jo Oxley: Yeah, that makes sense to me. Well that feels like a really safe place for us to come in to land to take a break, Jo Bealey: Thank Jo Oxley: Joe, And then when we come back we will talk about a dilemma welcome back everyone. So Joe, I'm thinking about a client who comes through EMDR who has had quite a traumatic background and they they haven't really ever experienced anything safe or positive What would be the way of working with that do you think from an EMDR attachment perspective? Jo Bealey: And I think that that can one be really difficult for both the therapist and the client. And it can be really challenging because if we're looking to install that positive belief, if they've had no experience of it, you know, I think of maybe if they've come with that kind of in a working model of I don't matter. and you're trying to install that belief that actually, yes, they do. They're important and they matter. And they have got a sense of a grasp on the world around them. To get from processing that trauma to installing that positive belief, there's a massive gap of them believing even that could be possible. And I think this is where the, well, for me, that relational aspect, the work is so important because if you're offering them in that room in the early sessions of mapping and creating safety you then perhaps become that seed of attachment that they haven't had before. and that's not always a quick process as we know. It can take time. Jo Oxley: So I I guess I'm I'm thinking about we were talking earlier, weren't we, that some clients come for a quick process and perhaps part of the dilemma then would be actually this isn't what I thought it was gonna be, this hasn't given me that quick fix and that can also perhaps cause a rupture in in the work, maybe. Jo Bealey: Yeah, that's it. And that's where that transparency is needed. of, you know, that continual curiosity of how they're finding this and what's it like to think that, you know, they've come and maybe there has been some processing done, but they get stuck in this next part of Jo Oxley: Right. Yeah. Jo Bealey: that self-belief and that Jo Oxley: Isn't it? Jo Bealey: importance and, you know, processing the bad stuff, but actually to gain the goodness is taking longer. Jo Oxley: Yeah. So what would you say then? What would your offering be to anybody who's listening out there who practices EMDR and sometimes feels like they get stuck or they might feel some of those I didn't do enough feelings that we talked about earlier? What would you what would be your message to them? Jo Bealey: I think it would be to notice that shark music and the clients getting stuck for a reason. You know, that's, that's communicating something, isn't it? It's actually saying either they don't feel safe, whether that's within themselves or going there with therapists beside them. Maybe it just feels too much to intrusive to have a therapist going there whilst they kind of, you know, I think if they've had to self soothe all these years. And then suddenly they're on this journey through the darkest tunnel where it's scary, it's dark, they don't know what to do with it. And they've got someone next to them, kind of watching them go through this and checking in and you know, how that might be for them. And actually that's darkness is really important to listen to of what's missing, what's stopping that client going there. Jo Oxley: It it Jo Bealey: or experience this. Jo Oxley: it it it sounds almost like how can they make use of a relationship if they've never experienced a relationship. Jo Bealey: Yeah, that's it. Jo Oxley: Yeah. And I guess there's hope there, isn't there? Because if we can use that relational aspect of attachment therapy to build that secure base, to offer that acceptance, to offer that attunement, to offer that understanding, to help them understand, then they can perhaps make start to make use of a relationship that can be of help to them. Jo Bealey: Yeah, that's it. And I think of all the EMTL work I've done with clients. And it can be such a beautiful journey of walking alongside them and really supporting them, but in a way that feels safe and going at their own pace and just be so conscious of that pace. where your client is and what they need, both from the EMGR and from that experience of relationship. Jo Oxley: Well Joe, thank you so much for joining me today and also for for everyone who's listening. And if you'd like to learn more about our diploma in attachment-based psychotherapy, you can find full details at optimaattachment.co.uk. That's also where you can download a CPG certificate to the time that you've spent listening to us today. And this is available for all of our episodes. If you're listening on Spotify, there's a link in the show notes. So a huge thanks again to everybody for joining us today on Attach Together. We'll see you next time.