Darren: ⁓ Welcome to a very special bonus episode of Attach Together. ⁓ and it's a bit of a different one. As usual, you can gain your CPD certificate and resource back by visiting OptimaHealthServices.co.uk looking at the show notes So I said today's a bit of a different one. I'm joined by Christopher Dines. Christopher is an author, a seasoned mindfulness practitioner, coach and a former DJ. He has published eight books on mindfulness and addiction, including The Kindness Habit, which he co-authored with Dr. Barbara Mariposa, a distinguished medical doctor. Christopher's books featured forwards ⁓ renowned figures such as Rudolf V. Tansy, PhD Harvard Medical School, and the John Bradshaw, number one New York Times bestselling author at the Meadows, Arizona. Today we are going to be speaking about ⁓ MBP. So great to have you here, Christopher, ⁓ but obviously first question is gonna be, What is MBP? What do you mean?

Christopher Dines: Thanks, Darren. Yes, I'm delighted to be here today. Really appreciate the invitation to join you MBP, burnout It was first based ⁓ on book that was published back in 2015. And at the time, the focus was really on assisting mental health clinicians. ⁓ navigate burnout prevention and ⁓ Barbara Mariposa wrote the foreword to that, she's a medical doctor. And since 2015, MBP has into ⁓ a service providing specialized resources ⁓ and coaching therapists and psychologists who are at risk of burnout and emotional fatigue. ⁓ And literally next or... ⁓ will actually be June of this year, 2026, the second edition of Mindfulness Burnout Prevention be published. So I'm really, ⁓ really excited about that.

Darren: Yeah, that's really exciting. there are so many bits that you said there that I want to ask more about. So it's where we go first. Let's start at the beginning, I guess. How did you even get into this? Where did you start?

Christopher Dines: Right, in recovery. In my teens, I had ⁓ misuse issues with alcohol and various other mind and mood altering substances. And what ⁓ is that ⁓ just after 21st birthday, so was August 2004, having attending mutual aid groups around substance misuse issues, I basically... ⁓ hit a rock bottom, a deep emotional rock bottom, ⁓ I'd stopped ⁓ alcohol and using those substances. And I was introduced at mutual aid groups to the of just being present. so there was real talk of mindfulness in that sense, although that's what it was. There was a lot of talk about meditation, being present, and that was to ⁓ help... me and my recovery and so I really sort of grabbed on to that in a sense. And at the time Darren I was working in the electronic music industry. By I was a full-time electronic music dance DJ and I had an independent record label at the time as well and I was hosting nights, I was covering the bills in that sense. whilst meditating and attending support groups, as I said, and receiving some therapy as well help me with my ⁓ wounds at the time. So was really on the forefront. then, so about fourth year into recovery, I decided that really wanted to explore what it would look carving out a career in wellness field. and mindfulness came into that and I was also life coaching at the time as well so this was around 2008-2009 and then in 2010 I garnered some interest from some sales companies in the city of London they were really interested in how mindfulness could help with regard to stress reduction. So if you think of John Cabot's in, ⁓ are a few CEOs ⁓ small companies that were meditating themselves and they wanted to find a sort of more ⁓ holistic to help their company. So I actually came through this working. the city. was then around two to three years after that that treatment centres were quite interested in how this could work. And so I started working in ⁓ treatment centres training not just their clients but their staff. So there was ECR ⁓ that in East Anglia. There was another treatment center in Luton called Rekindling. It was a small treatment center and then the recovery hub and then that led on to other, for example, it's now called Harbor Clinic. used to be called Ad Council and that was one client at a time approach. The first actually in the UK. That's Paul Flynn to CEO of that company. So that's how I got into Mindfulness, Mindfulness Burnout Prevention itself, as I said, that was founded in 2015, sort of in between that period working in mental health.

Darren: You were so young, The parent in me is like hearing the number 21 and being so and having, you know, discovering so much at that young age and doing the work on Yeah, that's a lot to have taken on board and to then have used it all in such a positive way and to spread that out to people. impressed by that, Christopher. There's no two ways about that. It's highly impressive. I'm thinking I ⁓ remember I mindfulness daily, I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I went on a small course for it and did some learning and through that's far more recent. mean, back when you were looking at starting, mindfulness really wasn't on people's radar, was it?

Christopher Dines: It's, I really appreciate your feedback and yeah, and it's, noticed mindfulness became sort of a buzzword in mental health and beyond that around sort of 2013, ⁓ 2014.

Darren: I'm.

Christopher Dines: And you had quite a few apps ⁓ of being released like Headspace. so there were people that around it that were doing it. As I said, when I started meditating, I just did it really for my own mental health. You know, I joined mutual aid support groups and I wasn't drinking anymore. So I had to discover, I had to ⁓ other ways to...

Darren: Yeah.

Christopher Dines: to sort of tune into my senses in a healthy way and to be present and to experience more calm. So that's why I was really drawn to meditation. As said, back then I wasn't really, I didn't really know the term mindfulness, but I practicing it. The word came up, conscious breathing was something that was talked about at those groups back then, being present.

Darren: Yeah, you were doing it. Mm-hmm.

Christopher Dines: So yeah, that's what comes to mind.

Darren: It sounds like a way of life for you rather than just a buzzword and something to do. It's a way of being and who you are. I'm then, the MBP, how does that fit Where does that evolve Christopher?

Christopher Dines: Yeah, so MBP, at the focus was sort of mental health clinicians and I was running ⁓ various... workshops with a retired, he's now a retired CBT and EMDR therapist, Mark Hanbrook. And we literally just put his newsletter out via the MBP newsletter. He was like a guest editor. And I know that you and Joe will be, you know, have your guest piece coming out next month as well. And was working with him at the time. He was based in East Anglia and he me some really good information and he was very supportive back then. But what's happened then is that we sort of fine-tuned it and realised that therapists and psychologists are at risk as well and having in... ⁓ mental health clinics and private rehabilitation centers and being part of the clinical team and a therapeutic team as a mindfulness practitioner. So for example, you would have a therapist, a psychiatrist, a mindfulness practitioner, maybe a yoga teacher for the group of clients. came up a lot was that therapists experiencing ⁓ exhaustion, of went on to experience full blown burnout and ⁓ had to the industry. So that became quite clear and then with the data and the research and I like being around therapists and psychologists there's just so much information to ⁓ access sort of exploring within the conversations. And so that just became clearer and clearer. so MBP very focused on the needs of supporting therapists and psychologists navigating burnout prevention because if someone burns out then they could be out from anywhere from a year to 18 months. So exhaustion is just know typically if someone calls ⁓ GP in the United Kingdom they get a fit note for exhaustion and they could they could very well be out for three months maybe six months which you know typically it's about three months but burnout itself you know as I said that that could be well over a year and that's that's a part of you know, there are three cylinders to burnout, exhaustion, apathy, and, there are very emotional components as well. So it's quite serious. And that's why I'm focused on that with MBP.

Darren: So I get, for those who are listening, are the warning signs? How people know they're on their way to ⁓ burnout?

Christopher Dines: So, is definitely something to be really of. It happens to us. I've been exhausted before. I've experienced burnout towards the of my music industry whilst in recovery. And I've experienced since working in the field. That's definitely a red flag. Something can be done about that. But sometimes... know, therapist or a psychologist, they might feel that they can't stop working due to financial obligations. Now, another thing as well is that since the World Health Organization published a definition of burnout back in 2017, 2018, that focuses really on the workplace. But since then, Darren, you've got psychiatrists, clinical psychologists, therapists saying, well, hold on a second.

Darren: Mm-hmm.

Christopher Dines: we recognise all of the signs of burnout among people who ⁓ in the workplace. For example, say like a mother, for example, who's got a disabled child is looking after two elderly parents and is showing the exact same signs as in the workplace. there's a conversation about that at the moment.

Darren: Mm-hmm

Christopher Dines: burnout, ⁓ definitely exhaustion. If that's the case, you know, do speak with your GP, try and get some time off. It's about lifestyle as well. How's your lifestyle working for you? If feeling resentful about work towards your clients, a sense of that's definitely ⁓ a red flag. know, please, please to someone about that. One of the services we provide at Mindfulness Burnout Prevention is a monthly subscription where we have MBP circle for therapists and psychologists. ⁓ there is an online community group as well as monthly coaching calls which is focused on lifestyle and supporting them to just have because there's a lot of blind spots, we all have them, but particularly around this. So that's one of the things I would say.

Darren: Yeah I'm really interested in that because obviously my next question is going to be what do do about it and you've already started to explain it. Could you give a bit more detail if people sign up what is it they and what does that look like?

Christopher Dines: Yeah, so typically a monthly subscription. the rate, we've got six where it is ⁓ 22 pounds month and that's for life. So in 10 years from now, it's not gonna be impacted by inflation. After that, it will go up. What they ⁓ receive with is that they'll be on a group with like-minded individuals, therapists and psychologists.

Darren: Mm-hmm.

Christopher Dines: navigating burnout prevention. So there's, you've got that genuine community. There's an, it's a very clear intention people are there. And, and I believe that I don't believe anything can really be accomplished without support. ⁓ there's a, there's a laser focus in that sense. And then as well, Darren, every there is a coaching call. So it's, there ⁓ guided meditations, are, you know, there's live meditations, which I facilitate, sort ⁓ of various.

Darren: 9.

Christopher Dines: work, so to speak, but also focusing on personal and professional goals. And I think that's really important because if a therapist, for example, is starting to feel apathy, then that tells me and evidence to support this, lot of data around it that they're somewhat feeling trapped in their work. And so having a clear vision around your professional and personal goals can really help to ⁓ override and transcend it. rather than feeling sort of stuck and then, you know, so to speak. Yeah.

Darren: Yeah, yeah, because this work is hard and I think that's really important to acknowledge that we take on so much others ⁓ we know we have supervision and stuff ⁓ you we need fill our cups don't we to use that well-known analogy and I can really see the benefit of this and I'm thinking of colleagues that I've worked with in the past who maybe if we'd all seen or if they'd seen a warning sign a bit earlier or if they'd been a bit more preventative might have avoided the three months off work. Maybe actually, yeah, that support. And my whole life is about community. In roles at foster care I run projects where we get families together. I'm ⁓ big on therapy groups. yeah and the online world has just opened everything up hasn't it because it means you can get real like-minded individuals from anywhere and learn from each other and support each other and that just feels like really impactful for me.

Christopher Dines: Absolutely, yeah, the work you're doing as well, creating communities, that's so important. I totally agree with that, Darren, so important.

Darren: There's a lot more isolation now I feel because increasingly therapy work takes place online and maybe you're like me and you have a shed in the garden or you're in your spare room or even just the corner of your living room and you're having your sessions and you shut down the computer what you no longer have is the chat in the staff room with a colleague afterwards or even the drive home with some tunes on and decompressing. Actually there's the gap. between work and life just gets smaller and smaller, doesn't it? And so I guess the mindfulness approach is about creating a bit of space.

Christopher Dines: Yeah, absolutely. Creating space, clarity. know, mindfulness traditionally means awareness. So it can be awareness of one's self, one's thoughts, feelings, emotions, bodily sensations, aware of one's environment, being aware of, again, lifestyle. One of the things we recommend is that therapists arrange sort of meetups. know, like for example, you said about, you know, there can be... a sense of isolation in a private practice that could be counteracted by ⁓ meeting up ⁓ other therapists or just with friends but prioritising that at least twice a week, at least once during the week for that time or taking time out. It's and makes ⁓ a ⁓ It does. so.

Darren: Okay we're ⁓ the end of our time. Is there, I ask this every single podcast, I don't want to put you on the spot but is like a takeaway you'd really like to, if there's message that listeners are going to take them what would that be?

Christopher Dines: things I'd say, it's perfectly acceptable to ask for help and to continue asking for help. And secondly, which you've already touched on and we've talked about is community. Just to re-emphasize the importance of community is so important, so, so important.

Darren: Absolutely, mean clearly I agree. I'm so inspired by the work you're doing. Can you remind me, what's website? Where can we go to to find out?

Christopher Dines: Thanks Dan, I appreciate that. So the website, it's mindfulnessburnoutprevention.com.

Darren: Okay, I'll be going on there shortly for sure. Thank you so much for your time today. You're a very busy man. You're heavily in demand, ⁓ time is really valued. Thank you. ⁓

Christopher Dines: you Darren, pleasure to be here. Likewise, thank you Darren.