Uruj Anjum: Hello, and a really warm welcome to Attach Together, the podcast where we explore attachment theory and what it really means in practice for counselors, psychotherapists, and psychologists. The podcast is created by the team here at Optima Attachment, who deliver the level 5 and level 7 diplomas in attachment-based psychotherapy. It's a space designed to help you deepen your understanding, reflect on your clinical work, and stay connected to the heart of attachment-informed practice. I'm Maruj, I'm an attachment-based psychotherapist, supervisor, and a former NHS genetic counselor. I'm a tutor here at Optima Attachment, delivering the level 5 and level 7 diplomas. I have a real interest in attachment, relationships, and the emotional impact of life experiences on one's identity and family systems. Before we begin, a quick note to let you know that our episodes now include a CPD certificate. So if you'd like to access it, you can Visit our website and check the show notes if you're listening on Spotify. I'll share the website towards the end of the episode. Today, I'm really delighted to be joined by Gav, one of our experienced level 5 tutors here at Optima Gav is an attachment-based psychotherapist who has a real passion for helping therapists understand the relational processes that underpin therapeutic change. Today, We're exploring one of the most important aspects of attachment-informed practice: rupture and repair, why ruptures are inevitable and how they show up in therapy, and why repair can become one of the most healing experiences that our clients can have. Gav, a warm welcome to you on the podcast. It's lovely to have you with us. So before we dive into today's topic, which I'm really excited to hear more about from you, could you please tell the listeners a little bit about yourself, your background, background and what brought you to attachment based psychotherapy? Gav: Hey Arooj, thanks for the intro. Yeah, I'm really pleased to be here today. So I'm Gav and I'm an attachment-based and IFS trained therapist and also a tutor on the Level 5 CPCA-B diploma in attachment and therapeutic counseling, which we run from Optima. And I'm also an accredited member of NCPS. So I guess why did I decide to specialize in attachment-based psychotherapy? Because I find it offers, I suppose, this really powerful framework for understanding people, understanding their relationships and the kind of emotional struggles that people go through. And I've kind of found that once you start viewing the world through that attachment lens, it's kind of like putting on a new pair of glasses. You you begin to see patterns, know, dynamics and meanings that were probably always there, but previously hidden to us. So it just brings a lot of depth and clarity to what we see with clients. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Gav: to the human experience. And I find it's really difficult to see things any other way now I'm trained in this. So yeah, I love attachment based work. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. I can definitely resonate with what you're saying there, Gav. And and I suppose over the years and with your experience, I wonder what is it about rupture and repair that continues to still fascinate you? Gav: Yeah, I think it fascinates me most because it's some of those moments that feel like, you know, therapy is going wrong. Can often be, I suppose, the moments where the deepest healing actually takes place. And it's kind of when a rupture is recognized, when we kind of name it, when we repair, clients don't just feel, you know, better about the experience, but they experience something which they maybe have never had before. And that's like a relationship that can survive misunderstanding, can survive conflict. or disappointment. And to me, that's where we start to build what we call like insecure attachments. And it's a powerful reminder that healing isn't about perfect relationships. It's about relationships that are resilient enough that we can kind of find our way back to connection afterwards. Uruj Anjum: Wow, I think that's such an amazing place to sort of start is to thinking about that secure attachment and and what that looks like. And I guess it it makes sense to start at that point at the beginning really. And how are these secure relationships, you know, built in the first place? Well, how is it actually formed? Gav: Yeah, that's a really important question. And think kind of as I alluded to a minute ago, secure attachment isn't created through perfect attunement, but more through kind of repeated experiences of repair as well. So, you know, many people, when they think about securely attached children, kind of think, they must have had perfect parents. But there's a lot of research that kind of shows us a myth. That's just not really the case. Secure attachment. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Gav: develops more through repeated experiences of rupture followed by attuned repair rather than the absence of any kind of rupture. And, you know, there's a lot of research out there by people, you know, such as John Balby himself, Mary Ainsworth, Dan Siegel, to name just a few of them, they kind of show ruptures. I mean, they're inevitable. Like no parent, no caregiver can be perfectly attuned all the time. And infants, you know, they experience countless moments of misattunement, you know, being misunderstood. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Gav: having to wait for a response, you know, and not having their needs met immediately. But what matters most is the repair. You know, when a caregiver notices that mismatch or, you know, and manages to reconnect and soothe, that really helps the child to regulate and the child starts to learn, you know, my distress can be understood. know, relationships can survive conflict and disconnection. Uruj Anjum: Mm. Mm-hmm. Gav: Other people kind of help me return to safety and I can tolerate all these difficult emotions because they don't last forever. Someone's going to be there for me. And it's kind of over those kind of, know, hundreds of thousands of these daily interactions that we have as children that we gradually develop this kind of internal work and model that says, you know, others are generally available and responsive to me and I'm worthy of care. You know, relationships are resilient even when things go wrong. And I think what that brings to me like is is the concept, you may have heard of this, of Donald Winnicott's concept of the good enough mother. And, know, that's kind of saying the secure attachment doesn't require perfect parenting. What it requires is the caregiver to be good enough most of the time, but with consistent, you know, repair after those inevitable moments of disconnection. Uruj Anjum: Yes. Yeah. I th that's exactly what I was thinking about is Wunekwat's quote around good enough parenting. I do a lot of work at mums aid and working with with mums, and actually it can be really helpful to reframe that trying to be perfect in some way for for children into being good enough. And and as you were speaking there, Gav, I was thinking about also the impact of being good enough or that attuned care. And often when we th when we hear about that, we don't automatically think about rupture and repair. We might be thinking about sort of those emotional needs, those physical needs and attuning to how they're feeling and actually, you know, how valuable those experiences of repair can be from childhood. And so as as we're thinking about that, I wonder as we understand more about secure attachment through all of this, you know, continuing research, how does rupture and repair then apply within the therapeutic relationship? Gav: definitely. Okay. So I suppose within the therapeutic relationship, know, it's another kind of, I guess the same principles apply because it's a relationship that we have, you know, therapeutic ruptures, know, thinking about misunderstandings, moment of disconnection, moments when maybe the client feels unseen. They're not necessarily signs that the therapy itself is failing, but when we recognize them, when we explore them and when we repair them. Uruj Anjum: Really? Mm-hmm. Gav: kind of within the therapeutic relationship, they can become actually some of the most powerful moments and for us to help the client develop insecure attachments. So we're saying that I think the same principles apply within the therapy and the secure attachment isn't built through constant perfect attunement, but rather through kind of imperfect attunement followed by consistent compassionate repair with the client. And I was thinking about this before, it's a bit like... Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Gav: An analogy you can have a user is a bit like using a sat nav. A rupture is bit like taking a wrong turn when you're in your car and you've got a sat nav on. The important thing isn't that you took a wrong turn because everybody does that at some point. also take a wrong turn here or there. But what does the GPS do when you do that? It doesn't say, journey's failed. Get out the car now. What it simply does is saying recalculating routes. That's what it comes up with and it offers you options for getting back on track. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Gav: And I guess repair is the relational equivalent of recalculating the route. So what matters is kind of noticing that you've gone off track and recalculating the route again. it's never about, relationship isn't about never getting lost, but it's about, you know, finding a new way back together and discovering that relationship can survive those wrong turns. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. I love that, Gav. I always love your analogies. I think that's a really helpful one because what that's saying is how do we recalculate? What does that look like now in the therapeutic relationship? And I wonder, you know, I'm thinking from my supervisor's hat, from my tutor's hat. Often I can hear from trainees around this fear of getting it wrong or that a, you know, a rupture with a client can indicate, you know, as you were saying, potential failure in some way or getting something wrong or upsetting a client and and I wonder. In psychotherapy then, what does why is rupture event inevitable essentially? Why is that going to happen? Gav: Yeah, that's a really good question. And I think it's because the attachment wounds that a lot of our clients come in with, they occurred in relationship, which means they'll also appear within relationship, including therapy, but also importantly, they can be repaired also within relationship. So I'm thinking about some of the therapeutic ruptures that can happen. A client may feel misunderstood after the therapist maybe reflects something slightly inaccurately. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. right. Gav: The fact, you know, a therapist can forget important details. It happens, you know, a lot. have a lot of clients, we can forget some important details, but I can leave the feeling unimportant, maybe misunderstood. You know, the client can experience this as critical following if we use a challenging question and that can cause a bit of a rupture there. If we went over time with the previous clients, you know, the client can feel a bit rejected, you know, maybe not valued as much. And there can be lots of other kinds of examples, like it's, you holidays. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Gav: cancellations, endings can all lead to the client experience feelings of abandonment and rejection. Or if we enforce a boundary, like, you know, no contact between sessions, the client can feel rejected. There's lots of these little things that can happen which cause rupture within the therapeutic relationship. And what they're doing is basically activate no detachment injuries and they become activated precisely because therapy matters. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Gav: And you can kind of think of it like the closer the attachment bond becomes, the more likely rupture becomes. So we don't rupture so much when we're not connected to somebody closely. So as they become more connected to us, more likely rupture is going to happen. And the client can then, you know, kind of unconsciously begin to relate to us as a therapist through a lens of early attachment relationships. All those, you know, expectations, fears, emotional patterns are kind of projected onto us. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Gav: Kind of think of an example here of, if we reschedule a session, that may be objectively, you know, a real practical necessity that we have to do that, but a client with a history of abandonment can experience it as rejection. So there's lots of ways these things come across and that activate node attachment wounds. But I think the important thing is that that transference, which is happening, is not to eliminate it. Because what's actually given us is valuable clinical information. It's starting to reveal the client's internal working model. Uruj Anjum: Mm. Gav: which is kind of unfolding in the here and now in the therapeutic relationship. And it's kind of when those moments are recognized and explored with curiosity, rather than us sort of getting defensive with them, they become opportunities there for repair and for developing insecure attachments. So it's kind of like this paradox, isn't it? The growing trust that makes therapy so effective is also what makes rupture more likely. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm, absolutely. And I can, think about even my own client work. I'll often say to clients at the beginning of our work is that I may not always get it right. I may miss something, I may make a mistake, I may not understand something in in the way that you needed me to understand, but would you be able to tell me if that was to happen, right? And so it's that building a relationship to that point where our clients are able to feel safe to to also tell us that that's how they've experienced. Gav: Mm-hmm. Uruj Anjum: disrupture or if you notice that within yourself as well, that something's not right, or you can notice that shift in a client. Gav: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And that's the really important things that I've noticed that shift in the client. And also then to be able to notice what's happening in yourself and when you can understand, okay, something's happened here. It's as you said there is to be really kind of having that openness with the client that to be brave enough to bring it in, I think into the therapy and to explore what's happened there because that's really where the repair is gonna happen. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Gav: And sometimes, you know, have to be brave to do that because it feels uncomfortable because we're dealing with our own kind of, you know, the parts of us that don't really want to go, we don't want to upset somebody. You know, it sometimes feels safer just to kind of, you know, gloss over that, but it's really where repair happens is when you can bring these things in, when you feel confident enough to do that. Uruj Anjum: Hmm, and and let's dive into that repair. So I wonder, you know, if there is something that's happened between the therapist and the client and we've acknowledged that there's a rupture, what what does that next step look like? What does that repair mean for the therapeutic relationship? Gav: Yeah. So what it might look like is, know, firstly, I think it's important to recognize, as I said, that we bring our own attachment histories into the room. So we're not just working with a client with their attachment histories, their own defenses. We're working with our own defenses as well. And we have things such as our own attachment injuries, our own shame, our own defenses and protectors. And, you know, a client may trigger that within us as well. So Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Gav: What we want to do is kind of recognize what's happening with us to be able to kind of offer that repair to the clients as well. So it's kind of been able to stop and think, okay, what's happening within me? Why did I become, am I becoming defensive? If so, why? How can I unblend from that kind of feeling? And then sort of being able to erase that, as you say, with the clients themselves. So it's developing confidence, you know, that distress, we're having ourselves and the client develop confidence that distress can be shared. Uruj Anjum: Mm. Gav: The relationships can recover from that, but our needs and their needs are legitimate and the connection can be restored afterwards. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Hmm. It's making me think about I wonder if this is something new for some clients, right? To experience that repair after a rupture depending on who our client is, what their experiences have been, what their attachment is like. I wonder what that means for the therapeutic repair to be sort of a first experience or a different experience of repair based on what what they're used to perhaps in other relationships. Gav: Definitely. And I think like, you know, a lot of clients who come to us have kind of insecure attachment. That's what we see a lot of in the therapy room. And that's kind of formed, I suppose, because repair, there was kind of conflict, but without repair in the person's childhood. And what that means is a child can actually internalize shame and that stays with us and, you know, all our life until we kind of do something about it through therapy or through other secure relationships and address that. So, you know, when there's no repair, Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Gav: you know, a child will start believing that it's their fault that rupture happened. There's something wrong with them. And the attachment system is all about belonging. It's all about safety and survival. children have this kind of innate ability to connect someone else's reaction kind of to their own worth. So when something threatens the attachment relationship, begin to feel, you know, they're the ones in the wrong. And shame becomes our protection then against something they believe they've done, which is threatening. Uruj Anjum: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Gav: that sense of belonging and connection. And that's kind of at the core of insecure attachment. So what I think a lot of clients have learned, so when repair doesn't happen, they kind of start thinking, well, I'm too much, my needs are dangerous, know, conflict will lead to abandonment. I've got to rely on myself and that all leads to a different forms of insecure attachment that we see. So what we're offering, I suppose in therapy, instead of that experience that, you know, they feel hurt. Uruj Anjum: And Gav: and they're going to be rejected and they're going to feel the shame. So what we're kind of giving them is a different experience, I guess. They can feel hurt, but we're noticing what's happening with the client. We're noticing maybe they've been withdrawn. They're noticing the anger. We invite discussion, kind of re-acknowledge mistakes which are happening, maybe have happened. We can tolerate criticism, but we can remain emotionally present. So what that teaches the client is actually there's hurt. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Gav: but there's expression, there can be understanding from it and then reconnection, which is something completely different to a lot of clients have had before. Quite often is there's hurt, there's shame, there's withdrawal and abandonment. So we're often in something very different here and that can lead then to kind of clients forming a new internal working model of themselves and other people. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And as as you were speaking, I was thinking around this, the shame that you mentioned. And I was wondering, you know, as as a therapist, how do we, when we can sense that shame or that shame is brought into the space, how can we, you know, work with our clients' internal working models of conflict or their past experiences of it to to to hold that shame and to to be compassionate towards that and to to offer this repair. I wonder, you know, what what your thoughts are around practically in those moments when you're working in that in that space. Gav: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think a lot of this comes down to sort of taking that non-judgmental stance and being curious. So being curious as to understanding, you know, what just shifted in you there. I noticed something. You have to notice it first. So you have to be attuned to your client. Okay. I just, I felt like something just shifted in there with you. You felt like, you you've a drew a bit or there's some anger or you know, some kind of disconnection happened here. Can we explore this? But exploring it, not from a Uruj Anjum: Hmm. Yeah. Mm. Gav: point of your being judgmental of him, but exploring to say, well, okay, there's probably a very good reason why that happened. You know, there's something in you, some triggering you, some kind of protector in your defense, which has come in because some part of you has felt hurt. Maybe you felt, I didn't listen correctly and you felt a bit rejected, a bit abandoned. Whatever it is, it's really important information and that's really helps us to get, understand the defenses and the attachment wounds underneath. So I think it's Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Mm. Gav: For me, it's kind of noticing it and being curious and having that, being brave enough to be curious with the client and to bring it in. Because this is why we're really working with the relationship itself, which is where I think attachment-based psychotherapy differs a little from other modalities where it's really relational. So we have to be really attuned to the relationship. Uruj Anjum: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And as you were saying that, I was just drawing into your your your face here on the screen. I know we're working online and it reminds me of when I'm working online actually, I can really pay attention to the expressions, the micro expressions, the movement, the subtle changes even that our clients might be bringing and kind of being able to notice that that difference, that that slight, shrug of the shoulders or the way their eyes might, change or roll. and and being able to bring that into the space. And so as we're considering how to approach that with the client, I'm also thinking about the therapist. And I wonder, you know, what what can therapists do in terms of supporting themselves if they've got a particularly difficult rupture with a client or, are trying to do that repair? What what does that look like in terms of the support that the therapist might need as well? Gav: Yeah, so I think we touched on that a bit briefly before, like, really understanding what's happening internally with us is a really important part. That's why, when we go through training, we need our own personal therapy and, know, we have supervision and, for a of people we still, we continue with personal therapy. It's because these kind of ruptures will bring things up in us as well. You know, we all have a part, perhaps, which is an inner critic, you know, a rescuer. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Gav: All these kinds of parts of ourselves are really kind of, I suppose want to be liked by a client, want to do a good job with a client. Don't want to cause any rupture with the client. You we all have these parts. So I think when something's happened is to be able to pause and think, okay, actually what's happening with me? And in a way sort of bracket that, to recognize the part of feeling hurt and say, well, I'll come back to you later. Just, take a step aside so I can actually be present with the client at this moment. But if you do that, you have to come back to that part later. Uruj Anjum: Mm. Mm-hmm. Gav: that feeling and that's where supervision and personal therapy really comes in. That's where we can take it and explore that afterwards. You know, what happened to me? You know, what part of me got triggered at that point? What attachment wound was raw? So yeah, we definitely, we need to do as much work as our clients, I think a lot of the time. Uruj Anjum: Yeah. Mm. Mm. Absolutely. And I think it's that ongoing process for us as therapists. and and working in such a relational way. And I love the way that you weave in IFS and and the parts work, because I think that is really valuable to to to introspect and to see what's happening inside of us, what's happening inside of us in relationship with this client or with other clients, and that using of supervision and personal therapy if we need that, as as we work. And so We we've talked around sort of what rupture and repair looks like in terms of attachment, in terms of the therapy room. And so I wonder if in the therapy room, our goal as attachment therapists really is to help our clients earn that secure attachment, right? And I wonder what would that look like in practice if, when we're working with our clients and to see them on that journey, what would we notice in them as they start to earn? that secure attachment for themselves. Gav: Yeah, that's an important question as well. I think just saying, insecure attachment develops through those repeated experiences of surviving and repairing any relational disruption. So what this insecure attachment doesn't mean is never feeling hurt. It doesn't mean you're never going to fear abandonment. You're never going to experience conflict. So all those things can still happen within insecure attachment, but what it means is developing the confidence that that distress can be managed and shared, the relationships actually can recover, having that confidence that you can get over this rupture. Confidence that your needs are legitimate, you're not suppressing your own needs to meet somebody else's, and the connection can be restored afterwards. So I think in these circumstances, the therapist starts to become a secure base for the clients, a safe haven, and eventually kind of a model for kind of them to internalize us. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Gav: to have as an internal safe base as well that they can think, oh, what would my therapist say at this point? What would they do if they were here? So it's this kind of gradual move, I think, from thinking relationships are dangerous to relationships can be difficult, but they can remain safe. I think that's the thing. So we're not talking about perfection. It's about perfection. about they're difficult, but they can remain safe. Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Hmm. I love that we've come back to the where we started in the in the podcast was around that good enough parenting and this idea of good enough attunement and actually through that therapeutic work we can create that change with our clients and if they can internalize that change, they can work towards that earned security for themselves. And it's such a privilege when I'm working with clients as well, I'm sure for you. as well is when they tell you when they come in sessions to say, this happened, you know, in between sessions and I thought, what would Arouge say or how would we, think about this situation? And you can really see that internalization of of that secure base within them. Thank you, Gav. I think what we'll do is we're gonna pause here for a minute. We're gonna have a short break and we're gonna come back to you with an ethical dilemma. Welcome back. And now it's time for our ethical dilemma. And Gav, I would love to put you on the spot with a dilemma here. and it's something that comes across quite often potentially in our trainees as well. And so in this situation, if a client was to say that I felt judged by you last week, I wonder how that would land with you or how you would work with that within the session. Gav: Yeah, thanks. Yeah, it's a tricky one, isn't it? And it can happen. And I kind of think in a first glance, it might be appearing about who's right. Because you might, as a therapist, don't believe that you are judgmental, but the client does. However, I think if we're thinking about it from an attachment perspective, I think the more important question is often what's happened in the relationship, as opposed to who's fault here, who caused it. Uruj Anjum: Hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Gav: I think we can look from a client's perspective. know, their experience is real, regardless of what our intent was. You know, their perception may have been shaped by all the things we talked about before in terms of early attachment experiences, transference, which I might be experiencing. It could be anything to do with our tone, our facial expression, the way we looked, our choice of words. It could be neurodivergence in communication as well. So I think... Uruj Anjum: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Gav: even if we didn't intend to be judgmental, the client has made it clear that the interaction was a rupture. They've experienced it like that. So I think it does offer some kind of ethical challenges here. Because if we say, you know, I'm sorry I judged you, you know, you're admitting to something which you don't actually believe has happened. If you don't feel like you have judged them, that risks them being an inauthentic apology. On the other hand, if you respond with, you know, I wasn't judging you. Uruj Anjum: Yeah, mm-hmm. Mm. Gav: that can invalidate the client's experience and that can just deepen the rupture there. So I think, you know, in this case, we kind of really need to tolerate uncertainty and hold these kind of two realities at the same time. You know, I don't believe that I intended to judge you, but I believe you experienced me as judging you. They're two kind of slightly different things, but we have to hold them both. So it's interesting how do you kind of proceed with that? So I think repair... Uruj Anjum: Yeah. The defensiveness, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Gav: doesn't necessarily require agreeing with the client's interpretation. It requires more about curiosity and a willingness to understand their experience. So I just think about what I might say here. It might be like, I'm really glad you told me this. I wasn't aware that you experienced me in that way, but I can hear how really painful it is for you and how painful it must have felt. And I'd really like to understand what happened between us. So that response, I think kind of validates the client's emotional experience. avoids being defensive and doesn't require us to agree with their interpretation, but kind of invites more of a collaboration of the rupture. So yeah, it is really, it's really tricky. So you've got this dilemma having you between integrity, know, remaining authentic to yourself, but also beneficence and respect, you know, making sure the clients experience, know, taking that seriously and protecting the therapeutic relationship. So yeah, it's a tricky one, but I think that's, that's my thoughts on it. Uruj Anjum: Hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I I like your thoughts and I'm I'm taking that away. That I wonder what that's done between us, right? That curiosity to see what's shifted because of this. How is this impacting the relationship and actually taking that step towards repair by by addressing that? Brilliant. And as we as we kind of begin to wrap up this episode, I wonder if there's one message that you'd like every therapist that's listening in today to take, into their practice about rupture and repair, what would that be? Gav: Yeah, I think it's like the way we started, perhaps, in that sometimes the greatest misconceptions about both parenting and psychotherapy is that healing requires perfection, that we can't make mistakes. But in reality, as we've talked about for the last half hour, healing can emerge from something much more human, the experience of becoming disconnected, recognizing that disconnection, and then finding a way back to each other. Uruj Anjum: Mm. Gav: I think the thing to take away secure attachment isn't the absence of rupture. It's kind of the confidence. The rupture does not have to lead to an end of connection, but it can be repaired because then that leads to secure attachments. Uruj Anjum: And Beautifully said. Thank you, Gav. And thank you so much for being here today and speaking about this really important topic. I've really enjoyed our conversation. And I hope the listeners can come away with a deeper appreciation of rupture and repair. And that it's not a sign that therapy's gone wrong. And actually that it can be one of those really powerful opportunities in healing, as we've discussed. And also there's so many layers to this as I'm thinking as we come towards an end, but how this shows up in C Provision and how this shows up in couples work. And actually for us to meet it with curiosity and that openness for repair. So if you'd like to learn more about our level five and our level seven diplomas in attachment-based psychotherapy, you can find the full details at optimaattachment.co.uk. That's also where you can download a copy of your CPD certificate for the time that you've spent listening today, and that's available for all of our podcast episodes. If you're listening on Spotify, then you'll find a link in the show notes. Thank you so much again for joining us for this episode of Attached Together and we look forward to seeing you next time.