Georgina: Hello and welcome to Attach Together, the podcast where we explore all things attachment theory for counselors, psychotherapists and psychologists. Created by the team Optima, providers of the level five and level seven diplomas in attachment based psychotherapy. This podcast is designed to help you deepen your understanding, reflect on your practice and stay connected to the heart of attachment informed work. You can download a CPD certificate from the show notes. or from OptimaHealthServices.co.uk. I'm Georgina, an attachment-based psychotherapist, clinical supervisor, and lecturer in counselling. And joining me today is Darren. Darren is a person-centred counsellor and attachment-based psychotherapist and a course tutor on the Optima Level 5. So whether you're newly qualified, more experienced in your work, or simply passionate about attachment, you're in the right place. Now, if you've been listening to the podcast so far, you'll know that Darren is actually usually our host. This week, as it's the final episode of our first season, we thought we'd turn the tables a little so that Darren has a chance to sit in the hot seat and share his thinking with us. So Darren, today you've chosen to talk about attachment defences and I'm really curious what made you decide to dive into this topic.

Darren: Hi Georgina, I was gonna say thanks for having me on. I'm not sure who's having who on who's podcast. It feels very strange being on the other side of the mic. Okay, so defenses, why have I chosen this? Over the series, we've mentioned defenses and traits and people have been giving us such wonderful, really kind feedback on the podcast. But the one feedback I have had the most is that

Georgina: you

Darren: sometimes as maybe ⁓ near an expert in this ⁓ ⁓ tend to talk about things as if everyone has the same knowledge and understanding that we do. And ⁓ I it's really important to acknowledge actually what do these words mean? And once understand the meaning, we then have that shared language to then build on. ⁓ So for I knew instantly what I wanted the subject to be on because I we really just need to clear this up and get it straight for people.

Georgina: Well let's get stuck in then. If we were to just take that step back and really clarify things, how would you explain attachment defences to someone?

Darren: Okay, so let's take one step back even further. So let's remind ourselves what attachment is. Attachment is the innate human desire to attach feel comfort from those around us in order to go out and explore the world and feel safe and knowing that have a secure base to return to. ⁓ So we those, that driving us to attach to others. Now, if we an insecure attachment style, that's when we can then look ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ defenses. And often we use those words interchangeably. Maybe shouldn't, because actually they do mean slightly different things. So for a trait ⁓ is an underlying trait. And that can be born of your attachment style. So a trait for someone who is avoidant is that they will prefer to sort things out themselves and that they will prefer to rely on themselves than somebody else because what they've learned is that they can't always rely on someone else to be there for them. In fact, most of the time they can't therefore trait is that they're independent. They'll solve things on their own. If we look at someone who is ⁓ preoccupied, both of which are anxious attachment styles, both born of the same fear of needing the connection and how they survive in world where they don't feel they can rely on others. However, that anxiousness shows differently with a preoccupied client. they actually are really keen on closeness and ⁓ And their trait is that they ⁓ are for collaboration, for reassurance, ⁓ for for closeness. So those the traits. ⁓ And we have ⁓ different traits different ways. And even those a secure attachment style. are gonna have their own secure traits. know, actually they're gonna be quite comfortable in their own skin. They're gonna be someone that you might say is confident, ⁓ comfortable, happy, easygoing. So those are those kind of underlying traits that we would speak about when we look at attachment theory.

Georgina: if we've got the traits then, then I guess for most of us that's how we would describe someone's personality maybe. Then ⁓ moving from that, where does attachment defenses fit in? How is it different?

Darren: Yeah, maybe. Okay, so defense is do you behave when you feel up against it? So your ⁓ trait is your personality and defense is maybe a ramping up of your ordinary personality. if we think of this in terms of scenarios, so, okay, start with. someone with lots of avoidant traits. So they're independent. They like to sort things out on their own. Now, if they had an argument with a partner, it might be that actually they completely withdraw. So they don't normally withdraw in day-to-day life, but when they're really up against it, they will just completely withdraw. They've had enough. And I guess the same can be true of those a preoccupied trait. so they can really escalate their behaviors. And I noticed this, don't know, Georgina, do you watch Married at First Sight? No, okay. ⁓ maybe you watch other reality shows, but definitely, I'm not only tutor at Optima that watches Married at First through the lens of attachment. And so you'll see these behaviors in real time. And in fact,

Georgina: I don't, darling. ⁓

Darren: As an aside, when you're training in attachment, maybe when people reflect back on their level four, even their level three training for becoming a or a counselor, maybe they're doing degree, and it really ramps up and you feel like in every single thing you watch, every single film, every single book you read, you can pick up on all these kind of bits that you're learning ⁓ depending on what theory got. And definitely when I was completing my own level five, I definitely found myself watching everything, really noticing how these attachment patterns play out. And I would say, Married at First Sight is perhaps the most obvious place to find these examples. So I was watching it only last night, but to be honest, this could be any episode in any season, even in or the UK, ⁓ actually you're at a dinner party and some people just look really comfortable and really relaxed and other people the first sign of like a bit of a disagreement or argument you can see their bodies slip back they almost push the tear back and and they withdraw and then when when they're like held accountable for something they'll be the person who just leaves the room altogether they will speak about everyone else, but when it comes to speaking about themselves, ⁓ uncomfortable and they will withdraw. What then notice, the dinner party I watched last night, which was pretty fiery, actually, those that seem to have traits ⁓ that would out maybe some preoccupied attachment style. They are the ones that when the fighting gets going and they feel under pressure, actually they ramp things up and they go for it even more because they're looking to be proved right. They're looking for a village around them to support them. So they'll build a case. preoccupied people almost feel like the politician, like they're out there proving the case.

Georgina: So there's something about what happens when we're under pressure then what happens when we feel under threat when you're describing it It almost sounded like something that was quite very primal very kind of animal and instinctive

Darren: Mmm. Yeah, absolutely. And we this right back to children. So of other hats is that I'm a foster carer and I see this within, I go to foster events and you see this ⁓ unfold in of with other families and their who maybe that you'll get like group of kids and they'll get together and they'll be playing and it. It's all fine until it's not and then there'll be an argument which is brilliant because this is where kids learn, isn't it? How to interact with each other. So I'm not one for rushing straight in and ending the argument. I'll let things play out and see where they go so long as it's safe and contained. And you see even in like a four or five year old, that child who, no, not having this and they'll storm off, you'll get the ones who are very, very quiet and will just. safely remove themselves quietly. And then you'll get the ones who are, no, that's not right. And they'll be the ones that come over to me as the adult and tell me what's gone on. ⁓ think that's fair? And don't they think I should do something about this? ⁓ I think, here we go. They've been, ⁓ something triggered your already existing preoccupied traits. And actually now ramping that up. and that becomes a defense. I'm going to defend myself these ⁓ that I know that works. I know that I can keep myself safe ⁓ I get people on my side and I understanding and I ⁓ feel by having others around me. ⁓ So going to ramp up my defensive behavior in order to elicit that response from others.

Georgina: And so that ramping up of that defensive behaviour is what we instinctively do to try to get a sense of safety and security. And I guess it sounds like it's built on our experiences in life so far. that where we're going? Yeah. And so then as therapists, how do we take this understanding ⁓ it in the therapy room?

Darren: Yeah, absolutely that's where we're going. Okay, so there's a few considerations here. So this isn't gonna be one answer to this question. think the first thing that I'm most mindful of ⁓ not colluding the client's ⁓ defenses allowing to play out in the same way that they normally do. ⁓ Yes, okay, I've got the preoccupied client sitting in my chair ⁓ and they've an argument with their partner.

Georgina: So can you give us an example of that?

Darren: And ⁓ to me, ⁓ do you think that's fair? That doesn't seem right, does it? That's not normal. That's not normal behavior, is it? You know, you should be able to have an argument without storming off halfway through. well, could say, yeah, you're right. That doesn't seem like normal behavior. Well, that would be completely colluding with their defenses ⁓ and their sense of ⁓ what keeps safe. And so... I need to be open-minded now, regardless of whether I agree with what they're saying or not. Actually, it's not about the moment. It's about understanding the process underneath that moment. And so of course, I'm not going to answer that question. What I'm going to do is gently allow the client to the ⁓ and responses to it. ⁓ And would come through from all the usual work that we would do in the room, but maybe some gentle questioning on allowing them to look that through a different lens. And that's where, a bit mentalization can come in. What you might have actually been playing out for that other person in that moment? Is there really a correct way of dealing with anything? Is there any absolute perfect? strategy or response. So I think that would be my first thought is around the colluding.

Georgina: And I can. And I guess what you're doing there is you're not colluding with them, but you're also not kind of battering them and knocking down them.

Darren: No, no, no. And that's just a fantastic point to take me on to. So ⁓ I had a client had avoidant defenses, what I probably would really look to do is not trigger those in the room. Because ⁓ actually, want the client to engage with the work and with themselves and with some self-reflection. ⁓ And I trigger their defense, So I think we can notice and work with the traits, but if we move to the point where defenses are triggered, then actually we're looking at that client completely withdrawing. Well, that's exactly the opposite of what we want to achieve. So it's about not enacting these moments in the room. So if I had an avoidant client, I may well stick with more of the facts at the beginning gently ease them into using that space because avoidant defense is going to feel far safer in a logical place.

Georgina: Yeah, more in the thoughts than in the feelings, I guess. And so we're with our client and we're noticing how they operate. We're maybe picking up on the words that they say or what their affect feels like in the room. But what about what happens inside us as therapists? How can we use that as well?

Darren: Mm-hmm. I mean, we're ourselves all the time. I mean, I'm a humanistic based therapist. I'm reflecting back on how I feel in that moment and I'm using the immediacy and ⁓ quite open. have to say I'm a very congruent counselor. So when I feel something in the room, I'm happy to bring that sensation that I have to the room. And I feel that actually that's really important to do sometimes. it helps with the mentalization of ⁓ I hear that, I ⁓ this response. for the client, it's just saying, how do you feel? Actually that's really, really tough because they don't know feelings. I'm the expert in feelings. I can bring what I feel in that moment. ⁓ And maybe will just open a door up for that. Individuals to think okay. Yeah, do I feel like that? Don't I feel like that and I really like it when a client says I see. I don't feel like that at all Brilliant. So how we know how you don't feel is there does that give us an idea of how you might? You where are the clues? What can feel in your body? What messages are getting? ⁓ What what did notice when you realized that what I said was wrong? How how is it wrong? Where did you notice that? What was your first instant reaction? And I think we can work with those, ⁓ feedback that we get from our clients tells us a lot. So if I feel like I want to get up and leave the room, what's the transference that's playing out there? And maybe by me bringing that into the room and say, God, I've got a real urge to just get up and walk out there. And I don't know why, but I wonder what it was about what said that gave me that. feeling and sometimes you can just see the client in the chair just almost like decompress and like exhale and like, ⁓ it's such a relief to finally be seen. depending on the defenses and the traits could also have the opposite of I don't want to be seen. ⁓ got a bit too close. So it's really about tuning in to your client's defenses and making sure that you're trying hard not to trigger them. but working with the traits rather than the defenses.

Georgina: And so it's really treading that fine line of really noticing, understanding things, being really authentic in our responses. But also there's something here about pace, isn't there? About the pace that our client needs.

Darren: Mmm. Mm-hmm. And it's really interesting you say that because I think pace works in two scenarios here. pace of the work, how quickly we go, but also the concept that we look at a lot within foster care, which is of raising a child pace, which is patience, acceptance, curiosity, and empathy. And actually if we those same conditions, and same thought processes to some of our client work, actually patience allow the work to unfold. We don't need to rush in. not there to fix. We're there to see what unfolds. Therefore we can be patient enough in that moment ⁓ allow the work to unfold in front of us. Acceptance, yeah. We might have the same defenses. We might completely different ones. I may not understand. the way you react to a situation at all, but that doesn't matter because I accept that in that moment. And I'm curious, I'm curious as to, what did I notice there? What did I pick up on? What was that quick look? ⁓ does that tell us? ⁓ did I feel dismissed in that moment? And then ⁓ all of it is the empathy, which is one of Roger's conditions. So for those of us that are person-centered, we're well used to working with empathy. ⁓ So will come as no... you will need no definition on how important that is. the other core condition I think can be really important is that congruence and the room, really bringing your true authentic self. And I'm not saying you disclose what your attachment triggers are, ⁓ but you certainly be mindful and honest with yourself as to what's activating you ⁓ so that know that you're responding for a place of curiosity and empathy rather than through your own triggers have been activated.

Georgina: And that's why it's so important, isn't it, for us to understand our own stuff, you know, to take what we need to take to supervision, to take what we need to take to our own personal therapy, our journals and everything else. That's been so interesting and now I'm off thinking about, you know, different clients I've worked with and different defences in my own, I suppose. I guess I just wanted to ask you if there was one thing that you wanted people to take away from this, Darren, ⁓ might it be? ⁓

Darren: Mm-hmm. Without a doubt, takeaway is this, this is normal. This does not make anyone broken or damaged or less than or a problem. This is just normal human stuff. We all defend ourselves and we all want to feel safe. Now, how we defend ourselves and our sense of feeling safe varies amongst all of us in the same way that, you know, no two fingerprints are the same. there's shame at all in realizing that have attachment traits, ⁓ that you ⁓ utilize them a defense. And ⁓ in acknowledging and working with it is ⁓ the first step in that is acceptance. So it's absolutely fine. It just makes you completely normal and completely human. So. ride those waves and work through it in therapy.

Georgina: love that because it takes us away from this idea of fitting into boxes and categories and styles and it kind of celebrates how unique we all are. So thank you so much for that Darren. been really thought provoking. So we're just going to take a quick break and then after that we'll be back with our dilemma.

Darren: Absolutely.

Georgina: So as usual, we're just gonna take a few minutes to talk through a common dilemma that you might experience. Now this week, we thought we'd have a chat about what happens when you see a client out of context. Now, as therapists, we often talk about this and think about this in our training, don't we? And even in our contracting, we think about what might happen if we bump into a client in the supermarket, for example. But what Darren and I were talking about earlier is that we all know that our professional world can also be a place where this happens. Maybe bumping into a client your own therapist when you're at a CPD event, for example. So Darren, over to you. What are your thoughts on this?

Darren: thoughts are wide ranging, which will come as no surprise. My thought is, let's acknowledge ⁓ the scenario first. So ⁓ I contract with my clients at the beginning. Most of my clients are in person, face to face in my local area. So I have ⁓ in contract, if I were to bump into you, what would you like me to do? Often people will say either, can you just carry on walking by? Completely fine. Or they might say, ⁓ maybe give me a nod of the head or say hi. What I'm not keen on doing is getting into long conversations and it's not session time and actually we maintain our boundaries. However, increasingly find ⁓ the world of counselling itself can be quite small. and can have quite a few overlaps. And I guess for me, that's where the gray area has started to sink in. I don't know about you, Georgina, on many of the courses around here, they say that for counselors in training, they need a counselor themselves who is accredited. Well, as an accredited counselor, I therefore have quite a few clients who are the counselors in training and who then become counselors and maybe they stay on, maybe they don't, maybe they go away, maybe they come back. But I am therefore aware of quite a few of the counselors in my local area who are themselves, they've been my client while they've ⁓ training. Therefore, when I then attend local, CPD events, which I do. And sometimes I even deliver them myself. I've involved in a local counseling charity, ⁓ actually shout out to Ashford Counseling Service. And they low counseling sessions for people in Ashford in Kent. ⁓ And therefore sometimes deliver them training that I deliver elsewhere at a cost, but I deliver it for free. Therefore, I see many of the local counselors and some of them have been my clients in the past. So we've moved from knowing them as a client to knowing them in that scenario in terms of training. I feel that what you need to do is actually re-contract. And so if I know in advance ⁓ I'm going to bump into someone that I have previously had as a client. It may well be that I will try and speak to them at beginning of the day or even contact them beforehand and just have that conversation. But increasingly what I do is utilize the last session to speak about the future because I'm now so used to how that works. So I will say, ⁓ we may bump into each other. How's that feeling for you? And we'll need to negotiate that in advance. So ⁓ yes, there are times you're gonna bump into people. What I'm not gonna do is start sharing any details that they've ⁓ shared a We're all professionals, we all work to an ethical framework and I feel quite comfortable with being in the room and I've been on the other side of this as well as being the clients as a supervisee where I've had my supervisor and my therapist in the room at the same time ⁓ I've been in there as well. ⁓ you know, ⁓ been fine because we have our boundaries, we know where we are. And we've had that conversation in advance. And I think it's about taking the mystique out of the situation, taking the fear of what might happen and making it certain by setting those boundaries in exactly the same way we would with other clients.

Georgina: And that's so important, isn't it? Taking the fear out of what might happen. And what I will take away from that this isn't just about contracting at the beginning of the work, but about in that ending session thinking about, where do we go from here? So thank you for that, Darren. And what got here, Darren, I know that you and Jo have been working really hard on the first ever Optima retreat. I wondered if you could just tell us a little bit about how that's coming together.

Darren: Mm-hmm. Oh yeah, yeah, that is really taking shape now. it actually came from an idea after one of my students in my class this year mentioned that she'd been on a retreat and just how much good that had done for her. And it just sparked a thought of, wow, what a shame it is there aren't retreats for counselors to attend. And I've seen them in America, but I've not. ever really seen one here that's specifically for therapists and counselors. And therefore we have put together such an exciting for the two days. and Odney Club where we're having it, It's just such a beautiful location. Just visions of the sun shining, of the incredible Linda Cundy come down and to us. We've got other workshops I'm really, really, really excited. And just the idea of getting like-minded people together, a bit of a break and being supportive just makes me so, so, so excited and I can't wait for it. ⁓ There are still ⁓ spaces available and as I guess, look at the Optima ⁓ for details how you can book. Yeah, one not to miss for sure.

Georgina: Thank so much, Darlene. I could really hear your excitement when you were talking about it there. thank you so much to everyone listening at home. And that's it from us. We hope that you've enjoyed this first season of Attach Together. We've had a great time. We'll be taking a short break, but stay subscribed and we'll be back before know it.