Annika: Welcome back to Perplexity, a podcast about how living with dogs Bruce: and cats. Annika: keeps rewriting the way we live, we think, and we try to figure things out. One German. Ben: One Brit. Bruce: and one American. Annika: And three very different dogs, and one dreaming at the moment. And three humans still learning. We talk about behavior, instincts, mistakes, expectations, and the complicated and very beautiful reality of sharing your life with a pet. We don't have all the answers, but we're here to ask all the questions. I'm Annika and today we're talking about the moment when one dog becomes two or more. The decision that looked straightforward from the outside and then revealed itself to be something else entirely from the inside. Bruce and Ben are here with me today. They are both living in a multiple pet household and I can't wait to dive into more what it's actually been like. Hi Bruce. Hi Ben. Ben: I am. Bruce: Hi, thanks for listening. Annika: let's start right at the beginning because the decision to get a second dog or another pet is rarely made from a place that has perfect information. after I think the first pet entered your life, you don't expect things to be perfect anymore. But I do wanna know what actually drove especially your decision, Bruce, because Ben moved into an existing multiple pet household, and Bruce made the decision to add pets to his household. So what's it like? Bruce: So with the cats, first we had Judge, the dog, and then Nipsey, she's the cat. We just found her one day, it was like a hot August day, and so we kind of just rescued her from the street. And then Max, I got as a birthday gift. So that was kind of that decision was kind of made by my wife and her Annika: Mm-hmm. Bruce: sister who really wanted me to get a chihuahua because she had just got a chihuahua. then the final pet is Patches and we rescued her from outside as well. She was living in like a cat colony that we were feeding in the park next to our apartment. So yeah, so we rescued her. It was like super cold this winter and she wasn't eating a lot. So my wife was nervous that she was you know not gonna make it so we took her in and yeah she's the newest member of the family she's still scared and lives under the bed for the most part but you know Nipsey is you know all around so is Max and Judge Annika: Would you because you said Tatiana and her sister made the decision, would you have chosen a chihuahua really? Or was it them who wanted you to have off? Bruce: No, I would not have chosen a chihuahua. Annika: Ratwaila is out of the question for now, but what Bruce: Yes. Annika: what would he have chosen or who? Yeah. He is. Bruce: Would have probably got another palm. I mean I will say he's a sweetheart. He's not like, you know, it's funny You know, like when I brought him to my vet for the first time my vet was like I've never been afraid of you know a German Shepherd or you know a Doberman or a big dog. She's like, you know I'm most most afraid of Chihuahuas because a lot of times they I guess they have like that little dog complex where they You know get aggressive, but he is the sweetest little dog and he's just loving he's always happy he doesn't you know bite he's just he's a happy little guy so I am that's you know very fortunate that we got somebody you know a dog like him and not like an aggressive Annika: Mm-hmm. Bruce: Chihuahua so that is a blessing for that because I would have if he was like an aggressive Chihuahua he'd probably be gone you know manifesting Ben: Thank you everyone. Annika: yes you are. But so there was never a moment where you thought that is kind of a mistake, as it everybody does have these thoughts when a puppy moves in. Bruce: yeah, no, I felt like he was probably a mistake since I got him. cause I'm working, I wasn't working for a little while and now I am. So I haven't had a lot of time to train him. So he's kind of, Annika: Mm-hmm. Bruce: you know, judge, we were both working as well, but I don't know. It was just different. It was a different time. We had a trainer that came and helped us with that. And Max has just kind of fallen through the cracks. He hasn't had much training at all. Although he has good recall. It's amazing. He knows his name and he comes when I call him. Annika: still the most amazing thing. That's the Ben: Good. Annika: yeah, the thing we struggle most. So Bruce: Yes, and that's what I struggled with judge the most was was recall But for whatever reason max like when I call his name his ears poke up and he comes right over Annika: And he hasn't learned that from Judge, that's amazing. How? Exactly. Exact Unless Kasha calls. But yes. Bruce: I don't think so because Judge doesn't do it the same way. know, like if I could sit here. Yeah, exactly. Gosh, yeah. She was like, he's got great rig. I'm like, he never comes for me. Annika: Same. That was not not changing. Unless she moves to either your place or my place, I think they will not ever have any recall. Bruce: No, exactly. Annika: Ben how was it for you? Because you and Bowie moved into your parents' home where they were already the the bigger cousins. So how Ben: Yeah. Annika: was it for Judge to transition to a bigger dog household? Ben: I knew Bowie Annika: Bowie, sorry. Bruce: Hehehe. Ben: was going try and be the boss straight away, I just absolutely knew it. That's who Bowie is. But yeah, actually came wasn't here when Bowie first moved in, so it was just... Annika: He wasn't. Ben: No. So we only had... But we still had Bruce, Lily and Doug. We still had three dogs here, so we had one lovely new dog. Bruce, yep. Bruce: So your dog is named Bruce? Awesome. I love it. Ben: Bruce the Labradoodle and two pugs so we had like... and yeah, Bowie just pretty much came in straight away and he was fine. He's adaptable. And then yeah, when we got Kane, when Kane was introduced that became more of a problem for Bowie. Hated Kane initially. Kane is un-nuded as well so I think Bruce: you Ben: that makes a difference to how dogs sort of... first approach in. Annika: And Cain also is made like he is a guard dog, right? So he yeah, Ben: He's got to get- Annika: so he is there to be in charge of things and guards. Ben: Yeah, which obviously to Bowie is not going to happen. Bowie's in charge and that's Annika: Yes. Ben: still how it is to be honest. But yeah, he was good as gold. I think it was good for Bowie to move into a pack because he is quite a sociable boy. So he wants to have those, you know, he wants to be in charge of a pack. He wants to like, you know... be bossy, wants to this, do that, and he wants to play. If one of the dogs has something he wants, he'll just go right up, take it away from him, walk away. That's Bowie's now. Annika: Yeah. That is still the funniest thing that he in a in a household where he's the new guy I mean Kane isn't, but Kane is a bit apart because again he's like in charge. Ben: Yeah, he's fake. Annika: That still a little little tiny Bowie is the one who just like Yeah. Yeah. Ben: he's in charge, yeah. Yeah. won't take anything off Bowie. Annika: Really, none of them. Ben: None of them. And Bowie would never sort of hurt them or try and bite them, but it's just his... It's sort of like, I don't know how he does it, it's his presence or something, but he's Annika: Yeah. Ben: not aggressive. He wouldn't ever be aggressive if someone Bruce: you Ben: tries to take anything off him. So it's quite amazing, quite an amazing thing to see, like, to these massive dogs, not even attempting to take anything that they want off Bowie. Annika: Does he kind of keep the group together? Because I remember when we all played outside the green and sailmakers, he was kind of a bit of the social glue, to be honest, because Bruce: Mm-hmm. Annika: he was good with every dog, whereas I have Ben: Yeah. Annika: the I she's not a problem dog, but she's very specific about who she plays well with and who she doesn't. And I remember he was just like going here, going there, trying to get everyone kind of into the group. Ben: Yeah, no, he still wants to be that sociable boy, like when we're out and about, he still wants to go and say hello and do this, up to any dog he can. Yeah, he's just, yeah, dreamy to be honest, very good. I Annika: Yeah, yeah. Ben: mean, he's just, he's very chill with his brothers now. They have a little play in the morning and that's their routine and that's it. But yeah, Annika: Again. Ben: I can't imagine taking him away from this, but it might have to happen at some point. Annika: yeah, that will be difficult. Well, different, maybe not difficult, but adjustment. It will again be an adjustment. Yeah. But they Ben: different yeah Annika: I mean, the good thing about our boys and girls is that they are kind of good with adjustments there because they all moved across yeah. Changed continents, Ben: Yeah, you threw it. Yeah. Bruce: Yeah. Annika: everything and they all kind of adapted. But yeah. Ben: Yeah. Annika: So for both of you, In hindsight, was there any moment that was very specific or where you felt like I expected this to happen or I didn't expect this to happen? Ben: I did something that when I went out, this was a me thing, I used to get worried about Bowie being able to stand his ground with the bigger dogs. So I used to move, this was a mistake obviously, I used to take Bowie's food when they get fed and put it in a different room so he could eat alone. And so that way Bowie wouldn't have to worry about people trying Annika: Yeah. Ben: to steal his food. But you know, I did that for a couple of weeks and I like the knife. started to see how he was with the bigger dogs I was like I don't need to worry about that Annika: No. Not at all. Ben: not at all but yeah so they all eat in the same room now obviously yeah Annika: And there was never even between the other dogs a an issue at all. So they're really good with eating together. Ben: Yeah, yeah, they're very good. mean, Bowie actually hangs around until Bowie will eat his fastest and will hang around and just lick the other bowls just to make sure everything's done. And he has to jump up to the bigger bowls because the bigger dogs are obviously a bit more elevated. So he jumps into their bowls, sticks his head in, licks around Annika: Yeah. Ben: the bowl, then walks off. He's a nightmare. Annika: Do you remember? Because these dogs didn't arrive all at the same time, I imagine, right? The Hus brothers were like added one after the other. Ben: Yeah, yeah. Annika: And there was never an issue even between them when they were added to the household with eating together anything. Ben: No, I don't think so. Kane and Bruce, before Kane got here, Bruce had to go and stay with Kane for like a week on the complex where Kane was being trained. Annika: Mm. Ben: So those two could bond before introducing him into the household. Bruce isn't the biggest fan of Kane because he's still... he still... Bruce is very much a daddy's boy. Bruce: We're gonna have to change someone's name, either mine or... Ben: so Cain still has a lot of dad's love, so Bruce is not happy about Annika: Yeah. Ben: that. Annika: I feel like from the stories when you talked about Cain, I had in my mind this like huge protective, very strong, very structured German shepherd, German shepherds have always been a bit of a mystery and like giving me anxiety. So and Ben: Okay. Annika: now Cain from everything you say is like a fluff ball, a goofball, like on your dad's lap. Ben: He's You can tell he's like... He's obviously been trained. Bruce: Mm-mm. Annika: Yeah. Ben: From the way he... When we play ball or play fetch or something, the way he darts towards something and grabs it is quite frightening. But he's just... He's just a big baby. Just a massive baby. Talks so much... Talks a lot. He talks so much more than Bowie or Bruce. Like talks all the time. Yeah, he's lovely dog. Annika: Sorry, it's so funny. Bruce: Hehehehehe Ben: I've got to stop talking about Bruce now. Annika: about Bruce, how was it with everyone? How was your experience? Bruce: So I was very similar to you, Ben. know, when we first, the first pet we got after Judge was Nipsey. And you know, we found her outside. So, you know, I was not a cat person. So I was always like afraid that she was gonna, you know, scratch them cause they have, you know, claws. And Annika: Yeah. Bruce: I never realized, but. when they declaw them, which is now illegal in most states in the country, they don't just take the nail out, they remove their first digit. So it's kind of like you remove the tip of your finger. And so, yeah, so that's how the claw doesn't grow back. And so that actually hurts them to walk. Annika: Yeah. Bruce: basically for the rest of their lives and So I Annika: It's horrible. Bruce: had asked my vet about you know getting nipsey declawed because I was worried that she was gonna scratch Judges like eyes out you know and Annika: Yeah. Bruce: And that's when I found out that it was like not a humane thing to do so don't declaw your cats everybody who's listening Annika: No, it sounds horrible. Bruce: Because a lot of they say a lot of times like it leads to like extra aggression because they're uncomfortable all the time But yeah, I kind of kept them separate for a while not to mention I mean Judge ended up being more of the aggressor than Nipsey. Annika: No. Bruce: so when we did try to introduce them, like Judge would kind of run after her and then she would go and hide under the bed. We wouldn't see her for a couple of days at a time because she was so scared of him. So it ended up I was trying to protect Judge from her, but I really needed to protect Nipsey from Judge. And then, you know, with Max, it was pretty much he's a puppy still. you know, he He really just kind of chases judge. He loves hanging out with him and I think judge Likes him less than like some guys. Are you you're saying Annika: Hi guys. Bruce: hello now? So, yeah, so judge definitely yeah Annika: He's saying it's not true. It's not true. I love them all. Bruce: So I don't think judge appreciates max all that much because he's got so much energy and he's constantly chasing him and taking like his toys away But yeah, and then patches is just she's still not really acclimated to the household yet. She's just kind of under her bed. Ben: No. Annika: I mean going from surviving on the street to having like so many siblings who are all so different you need some time to adjust, I imagine. Yeah. Ben: That's it. Bruce: yeah, 100%. And her and Nipsey are getting on together well. Annika: That's sweet. Bruce: So like, we basically have patches in like the master bedroom and I call that Nipsey in there and they kind of bond a little bit. She doesn't come out of the room much because she's just afraid of everything I guess. If Annika: Yeah. Bruce: I walk in there, she runs under the bed. I still she's still Annika: still Ben: Sure. Bruce: not completely comfortable with me. But yeah, I Annika: Did she make a difference between you and Tatiana? Bruce: mean. So she likes Tatiana more. I think she's just more comfortable with Tatiana at this Annika: Well, we all do. Sorry. Bruce: point. But yeah, I mean, it's funny because when I used to feed her when she was like a feral cat in the wild, Annika: Mm-hmm. Bruce: she would come running up to me and I would I was able to pet her. I only people that she would allow. you know, someone to pet her. And I remember like the guy who, you know, like kind of ran the the volunteer organization was like, my God, I can't believe it because I would record it and I would send it to the group. but now she doesn't now she runs under the bed when she sees me. you she's spoiled now. She's got Annika: Mm-hmm. Bruce: air conditioning, she's got heat, she's got whatever she needs. Hey Max. Thank Annika: if if you had time and space and life was a bit more plannable, who would you add? And would you add another dog? Or would you because we already said Bowie needs needs siblings in a way. So Bruce but Ben if you ever moved away, would you think about a second dog? Ben: I would definitely find like a good friendship group for him and have it that way like we did in London because that was perfect because he got you know if I went to work he got to play for someone else for the day you know with Mackenzie I was his favorite well actually yeah no I think Kenzie was his favorite and Dobby Annika: And Dolby, I think. More Bruce: Yeah. Annika: for like long term stay for both of them it would be Dobby and for like short term interaction. Like in one one to three hours would be each other and then anything Ben: Yeah, short time, yeah. Yeah, we can, yeah. Annika: more would be like let's go to Dobby, she's more chill. Ben: Yeah, yeah, I think that he got more excited to see Kenzie. I think it wasn't just Kenzie though, it was you guys as well. He knew where the treat cupboard was. It Annika: Maybe the treat park yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it wasn't us, it was the treats. Ben: was the treat cupboard and the toy box. Yeah. Annika: Yeah, but yeah. Okay, great. But I feel I feel so loved, thank you. Ben: make sure he had Annika: please. Ben: a good social circle. I'd probably find like a good like daycare or something that he could go to and I trust. Annika: Which is hard to find, I think. Ben: Hard to find. Annika: for Bowie we already know his personality hasn't changed at all. He just goes somewhere, he's his own lovely self and he makes other dogs adapt. How about Judge? You said Bruce, he wasn't too happy about Max in the beginning. But has he changed? Bruce: So yeah, I think they definitely get along better now, but Max Annika: Yeah. Bruce: is still a puppy, so he kind of still annoys Judge a little bit. if we had a bigger place, I would have more pets for sure. Annika: Even more the Rutwila finally. Bruce: Yeah, exactly. Finally get the Rottweiler. But also just cats. think we would, I know, I know like my wife, you know, when we see a cat outside, we now carry around cat food. So she feeds them, she'll bring them food. So know she would rescue all the cats that she possibly So we'll probably at some point have like a rescue in our basement. Ben: Would you ever think about it? Annika: We weren't in city And like I was debating it so much and my sister because she has two dogs, it's she rescued two one after the other. And we're constantly talking about does it would it be good for us or not? Bruce: Ahem. Annika: And I every time I think it through I feel like Mackenzie it would be the same I would do the same as you just said, right? Find a friendship group that she can interact with, get all her social energy out, and then stay a single child. because she the older she gets, I I think she she becomes more and more introvert. before when she was very young she seemed to be the only extrovert in the family because Tobias and I are more introverted. And she was like going out, these are the people you're going to meet with, this is where I wanna go, this is the person I wanna play with, or the dog. So she was very focused on finding interaction wherever she went. And then as she got older, I'd think about the two year, three mark, two, three year marks, she was more she needs more rest. She enjoys the rest more. So she Ben: yet. Annika: really does enjoy even outside now, we have a couple of dogs that we regularly meet that are kind of her let's say acquaintances. on the way to become friends. And she plays for two minutes and then she's done and we move on. So and whereas when we were in London it was more like endless play. So she could play much longer and she enjoyed it more. but I think she is a lonely child thing. I don't think she's good at sharing. attention and love and everything. Because everything resolves around her all the time and I don't think she could let that go as easily as Judge did Bruce: boy. Annika: She's a g she's a perfect girl as well. I just think she's made to be an only an only Shiba girl. Ben: Yeah. Annika: I was thinking about a cat because I think a cat can get away, right? So when they can Bruce: Yeah, yeah. Annika: play together because she plays very cat like all the time anyway. She plays a lot with her paws, with her body, she jumps and I thought a cat would maybe be nice for her and they would have Bruce: You should do it, get a cat. Annika: boundaries but but she's so afraid of cats really. We can't she walk past one. She is like she's stopping, freezing, go to the floor. She's super intrigued. But whenever in in Sicily there's so many cats walking around. Whenever a cat comes our way, she's like frozen and I think terrified. There's only two things she's afraid of, and this is cats and cows. Ben: Cows. Bruce: I I have some... Annika: Cows. I don't know. Horses she she likes, so she even runs after a horse if there is one. She keeps her distance, so she's kind of intrigued and she realizes they are physically much bigger. But cows is no. It sh cannot move, cannot be carried past a cow. It's not possible. Bruce: That's funny cats and cows I don't think Annika: It's just we were in Ben: god. Bruce: Max or judge has ever seen a cow Annika: We were in Wales for vacation. It was like this beautiful, beautiful little hotel, like perfect garden, dog friendly, perfect food, perfect everything, near Ten B. And you would walk like two kilometers on the beach to the town. Which is perfect. but and we thought we could we just and there's like ten minutes to get to the beach and then you walk along the beach to town, you have dinner, it's all romantic, all three of us, sun down everything. But to get to the beach you would have to get past cows. So she refuses, Bruce: got it. Annika: absolutely refuses to walk or be carried. It's yeah, she's terrified. Even distance. As soon as she realizes there's a cow, it doesn't work. it's a lovely place if you go with somebody who can walk past a cow. That is I can recommend that place. But Max, you carry a lot anyways. Would he be afraid in your arms, do you think? He wouldn't, right? Bruce: No, no, if I was carrying him he'd be fine. Annika: Yeah. Yeah, Mackenzie doesn't trust us a pair. Well, it seems it now it feels like she doesn't trust us. She does. But cows are just out of Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Bruce: She just doesn't trust cows. Annika: Cows are rules out trust. in your multiple pet households, is there anything that another pet taught Bowie or Judge? Bruce: Yeah, so my friend's dog, Trigger, who's the Rottweiler, he Annika: The right well. Bruce: actually, he's the one who taught Judge, like, after he pees to scrape the ground. Judge never did it until he saw Trigger do it once. And now he does it, like, every time he pees, he scrapes up the ground. Annika: Every time. Bruce: Yeah. Annika: And does Max Max pick that up? Bruce: Max so I don't walk max as much as I walk judge over the winter it was super cold and he just couldn't handle the cold and So we we did the wee wee pad training so he goes on the wee wee pad now I do take him out I don't know if he does it as well. I would have to I think he does do it He does do the yeah, he Annika: It does. Bruce: scrapes. I think he does not as often as judge, but he I've seen him do it Right max Annika: Cute. Okay, and what did Bowie teach all the other dogs? Ben: Bowie taught Bruce to roll in shit. Bruce: That's what we talk about. Annika: Nice, nice. How does it fear bros to roll? Ben: Yeah, Bruce: It's lovely. Annika: It's good then. Ben: Bruce has never done that before. Yeah, Bruce: I'm sorry, Tom. Ben: but now he does it. If you see Bowie do it Annika: He does. Your parents must be elated. Ben: out on the field, he will go and go exactly where Bowie's just done it and do it himself. Annika: You must be so happy. Ben: Yeah. Bruce: So he rolls in Bowie's poop. Ben: He rolls in, Bowie's already rolled in poo. Annika: That would be fox mostly, you said one Bruce: Hahahaha Ben: Fox Annika: time. Yeah. Ben: mostly, Fox mostly, yeah. Annika: There is a special kind of fox poo shampoo. I didn't even know until you asked for that. So so fox poo must be especially is it Ben: Yeah, we've got it, It's so smelly and so hard to get out. And that stench is just, it's next level. So yeah, they do a special Fox Poo shampoo. It's thicker. Annika: Yeah. So you have that on Yeah. And but now you Ben: We have that. We have many Fox Pooh shampoos. Annika: need twice the amount because now you have more dogs rolling in Fox. Ben: Yeah, exactly. Bad influence. Annika: Yeah. Okay. Well, but we Ben: Yeah. Annika: was never a bad influence for us. We want to make that point clear. So he's only bad influence for cousins and brothers. Okay, good. Ben: Yeah. Annika: Is there any part for either of you where things get a bit more complicated? Like during walks, well feeding we already covered is not as at all difficult. Ben: trying to keep them, I mean for me it's like everything is a competition now, everything is a competition. Who's the first one to get out the door? Who's the first one to get through Annika: Really? Ben: the gate? it, Bowie's the worst for it because he's like, and since he's hurt his leg, I'm trying to be so conscious to try and make him slow down a little bit more for when Annika: Yeah. Ben: he's in the morning and it's like the first one to get outside, they're all at the door like trying to push through. If it's me, They have to wait before I go through the door first and then they can go out. But I know that's not the case when I'm not here. It's just a free for all. I worry about the bigger dogs obviously squishing together and like maybe... That's what goes through my head, know, like Dems trying to scurry and get out first. It's a bit messy. yeah, everything is like... It's just kids. It's like everything. I'm just... I want to be there first. I want to get there first. Bruce: So walking the two at one time I always thought would be easy and it's not that it's hard but Max, like a noise judge, so he doesn't... Go to the bathroom necessarily every time so like the other night, you know, I walked I took them both out on a walk. It was a nice evening and Like he'll pee they'll both pee but he won't like he distracts him too much to poop Annika: Mm. Bruce: and So, you know, of course I came back into the apartment I sat down I turned the TV on and like 20 minutes later He's like begging me to go back out because he had to go poop. So I took him by himself I mean that's the only thing, yeah, like feeding them is not a problem. And yeah, I mean that's basically the main issue that's become more difficult I guess. And I don't have to walk them both. If I do walk them both, it's usually like more of fun outing than, you know, like a purposeful Annika: Business. Bruce: outing. And so, yeah. Annika: I have a a a a loaded question. I'd say that do you love them all equally? Or is the firstborn still the most important one? Bruce: No, firstborn is still he's he still has all of my heart Annika: He does. Bruce: I have to say I do I do love Nipsey a lot Max I Did he's just he's a puppy He's kind of new he's not trained well Like he peed on my on the bed a few times and I was not happy about that And then patches, you know, I don't see her. She's like an enigma for me. I don't see her much. Ben: This. Annika: So you have an order of love for the four fur babies you have. And you don't feel guilty for it. Amazing. Bruce: Yes, I do. No. mean, Judge was our first, right? So he's of course gonna hold a little bit more of a place in my heart. Nipsey, I never knew that I would like a cat, but she's just such an amazing cat. I mean, like when I call her, she comes to me. It's like, I've never seen a cat that does that. You know, I'll be sitting on the couch. I'll be like, come here, Nipsey. And she just jumps on my lap. And like I said, Max, I definitely love Max. It's just, he can be annoying, I guess, is part of the problem. He barks a lot. You know, he's, like I said, he's not as well trained. I don't, he doesn't, that's my fault. No, Annika: And whose fault is that? Bruce: no, no, there's no bad dogs. There's only bad owners. But yeah, no, we haven't had a lot of time to train him. We have a plate pen for him. So it's not like a crate where he doesn't have any where to roam. He can kind of move around and he's got his little bathroom pad in there. And so it's actually got two different rooms that he can go into so he could sleep on one side and he could do his business on the other side. So he's in there a lot because I he's just not well, you know, he's not housebroken. I mean, he is for the most Part we let him out and he roams but there is sometimes where he see he marks is what he does Annika: Does Judge ever go into the play Pam? Bruce: Only when he tries to eat max's food Because I have Annika: okay. Well that's fair. That's fair. But you kn Bruce: to I have to feed them separately because they'll eat each other's food and then I don't know who's eating what That's kind of a difficult thing with with patches and nipsey too because I feed them in the bedroom, but Think Nipsey eats Patch's food a lot of the time so I don't know when she eats I have to I actually kind of feed Nipsey separate to now So I know Patch's is getting her fair share of food Yes, it's it can be a little complicated Yeah, Annika: Yeah, a lot of organizational changes, it sounds like Bruce: it's worth it they're all good they're all cute Annika: That's good. Do you think that order of love that we've just established will change in the future? That's going to be super interesting to follow up on. Bruce: I don't know I could see Nipsey I could see Nipsey being like I guess my favorite in the future, but right now it's still Judge Annika: Poor judge. Bruce: Well, because Nipsey's just like First of all, she's a really good cuddler. She loves to cuddle the judge He'll cuddle like on his terms so he'll come and he'll snuggle up to you and then like he gets up and walks away and does his own thing like Nipsey once she's like cuddling next to you. She doesn't move and She's there for the duration of however long you're sleeping for she's just next to you So that's, that's, you know, obviously nice. Judge, I think he gets hot. So he'll get up and he'll walk like he'll, we have stairs that go up to the bed. So he'll walk down the stairs and he'll go into his crate where it's cooler and he'll lay down there. He'll come back up like when he's, I guess, when he's more comfortable temperature wise, he'll come back up into the bed. But it's like, it's like a back and forth thing. Nipsey's just there. She's there for the, for the whole time. Annika: Well, you were supposed to say I love them all equally so and I forever will. But yeah, okay. We'll revisit. Yeah, that's true. Ben: Thank Bruce: I know. I know. I'm honest. I'm honest. Listen, you know, all the parents out there who have children and they say that they love them all the same, you know you have a favorite. I Annika: Yeah. Bruce: don't need to say it. You know you have a favorite. Annika: I do, but that's easy. Ben: Yeah. Bruce: Yeah, exactly. Annika: But y you do too, right? There is none of the other cousins and brothers that you would choose over, Bowie. Ben: Bowie's number one. Yeah, Annika: Yeah, he always he always will be, right? Ben: he always will be. yeah, he's my little mate. He comes over here Annika: Yeah. Ben: with me, just adapts to everything, everywhere I go. I just, I can't imagine another dog, if I get another dog, like it would be the same. Just, I can't comment on whether I like this dog or that dog more. But even, to be honest, when I had... didn't have Bowie and I lived here and we had the, we had four dogs. I did have a fave. I guess she was more my dog anyway, but it was Mimi, her name was. She was a pug Annika: Maybe. Ben: and she just sort of, she just always would come to my room to snuggle. It would always be me she'd come to in the day. Yeah, I think you just be I would I say I would say you bond better with another dog When there's you know multiple there will always be one that bonds that you bond better Annika: Yeah. Ben: with and you know None of this was involved. Yeah. Yeah Bruce: whenever there's snuggles involved. That's the one who wins. Annika: Yeah. I mean, to be fair, if you have multiple siblings, you also always have a favorite, right? And it it may change over time, of course, but there's always one person you like better than the other. Sorry, Ben: You always have a favour to say me. Yeah. Yeah. Annika: I have a brother and a sister, I love them both equally, but there are times where I have more touch points with the one and then it changes again. I do love them both equally, so I'm just like taking back what I just I do. Ben: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you love them both equally, Bruce: No she doesn't, she's got a favorite. Ben: but you get on with one more than the other. Yeah. Annika: Yeah. Also, I have a favorite sister and a favorite brother, so for me, my position is perfect because I have a brother and a sister. So with two brothers Ben: Yeah. Yeah. Annika: or two sisters that might be So Ben, you're in a more difficult position because you have two brothers, right? See. See. See po point proven. That that is Ben: I get on with one more than I get on the other, but I love them both equally. Annika: true. people who are thinking of adding a second dog or who are maybe struggling because you both have kind of not perfect stories but really, really good starting points and you've it's just brilliant how everything fell into place, even though it's a lot of work. But is there anything that you want people to know who are not going through this very good journey or perfect journey that you both have? Just do it, yeah. Bruce: Just do it. Get the other dog. Ben: I don't know, just, it can be, you just do your research on what the second dog, you know, do the research on the breed, Bruce: Mm-mm-mm. Ben: make sure the dog you've got currently is sociable when adaptable. It's Annika: Yeah. Ben: just so important. Like, you know, my brother got another dog and attacked his first dog twice and now that third dog is now Annika: My God. Ben: living with us because he Bruce: you Ben: killed him. So. Yeah, it's Annika: Mm. Ben: just got to make sure that it's going to be... Annika: Wait, but they moved the first dog out to live with you. Ben: because he was smaller and we couldn't have that bigger dog living with us. Annika: Okay, yeah, okay, but that is sad. I mean Ben: Yeah so yeah it's sad but like the the Doug the pug is is much happier Doug the pug is much happier got very human names here yeah Bruce: Doug? Doug the pug. Ben: we couldn't have he got a Bruce: You Ben: he got a big English bulldog thing so Annika: Okay. Ben: we couldn't have him here because he was you know, he had these weird tendencies so he could be a bit unsettling Annika: Yeah. Ben: sometimes. I'm not having him anywhere near mine. Annika: I mean, especially if he there's a track record of maybe not getting onstable with another animal and then you don't move them into a multiple bed household. Okay, yeah. Ben: yeah. Yeah, so I'd just say, yeah, it's just so important. Especially with bigger dog breeds, think you've, unless they've grown up together, just make sure that they're, you know, going to be Annika: Yeah. Ben: compatible. Annika: Yeah. Though I wanna say my sister, she rescued these two dogs, one like half a year apart. And the first one was it was more necessary to move him out of the shelter in Romania because he was really suffering. It's like a a shepherding black big dog. They are always like neglected. And he just a kind of fine. he's like a mama's boy through and through, like complete mamma's boy. When she's not in his side, he's like super, super, super focused, like where did she go? And then a second boy that a also boy, one that she was looking at even before, so she wanted him to come out first, but the shelter said the other is more important and then you just this one and after a year maybe the other one can come. and then the second one he came after half a year I think because it was pandemic and it was necessary to move him out. so they organized a transport with all the other shelter dogs and he arrived and I think I talked to her like last week about it and she said she didn't really plan ahead as much, which we now with hindsight obviously you do h have to do your research, but these two boys are the best brothers. They are so different. Really so one is really alert, the other is a bit more calmer. Now when they're outside, they just like they team up to get out and annoy other dogs sometimes. And they communicate Bruce: Hehehe. Annika: so quickly. And they get along Bruce: you Annika: so well. They eat next to each other, they sleep next to each other, they chew together, which is something that Mackenzie could never not even with Bowie, Dobby or Judge. She would be like Okay, you can chew right next to me. They're like face to face chewing and smuggling. That's amazing. So it can you can also be very, very lucky. Yeah. Yeah. And you can be very lucky. But Ben: That is good. It can be very good. It can be very, very good. You know, some dogs cry. Yeah. Yeah. Annika: yeah. It's it's really hard because I would lean towards do your research, if you can try, test, get them, get them to know each other. But sometimes you just can't, right? Life happens and because Ben: Yeah, yeah, thumbs up, thumbs up you can't, yeah. Annika: You cannot send that dog back. It's the transport is done. You cannot Well, if it doesn't fit all the way back to wherever he comes from, that doesn't work. But Ben: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Annika: yeah, I think the truth is some somehow both. It's just do it, but also don't just do it. But Ben: If your if your dog, if your first dog's been trained properly and he's been brought up properly, then there's, integration shouldn't be a problem, I think. I think if you, you know. Annika: Unless you're McKenzie, maybe because she Ben: No, but I think even if you bought another dog for Kendry, I think she'd be fine. Because Bruce: I think Mackenzie would be fine Ben: she's not aggressive. She's just Annika: She can be, she can be. Bruce: Uh-uh. Ben: possessive, I guess, over certain things. Annika: Yeah. Ben: But like, I think she'd do well with my puppy, you know. I think she'd be protective. Annika: With a puppy. Well, I think once you she she accepts that puppy, yes. So that Ben: Yeah, yeah. Annika: puppy would not have to worry about anything at all, ever. But that but the path towards, yeah. That Ben: No, no. Getting to that point. Yeah. Yeah. Annika: is going to be and i i that can go both ways with her because I don't think she can share her life as much Ben: Yeah. Annika: Because she d she does need these like power naps and all the time. Like she now she's like for Bruce: Over. Annika: Yeah, well it is what it is. Like sometimes after an a walk she sleeps for six hours now and there's like Yes. And that she's not old old. I just think she's serves her energy differently than when she was very young. And if there was a Ben: Yeah. Annika: puppy running around being loud, or like demanding in terms of energy and attention that and then if she's annoyed, then she will take her teeth out and that could potentially be a problem. Also I think for us, she's so good at being alone now every now and then. So for four hours it's absolutely no problem at all. But if there was a second dog I would always worry Ben: yeah, okay. Annika: like when because she tips over quickly. She doesn't show she's annoyed, but when she is, it just like goes in an instant teeth out. And Ben: Yeah. Annika: when you're not there that moment that can potentially be really, really bloody. So b because Ben: Yeah, yeah, true. Annika: sh she doesn't step back. So there's like when she's overtipped, there's it just reason doesn't come back to her. And Ben: Yeah. Annika: that is I'm worrying about that a lot. But I'm thinking constantly thinking we should rescue. My idea was that she would find like a street dog in Sicily that she would fall in love with so hard that we could just not let them lie there. But it's still that is still a dream to to come true. Ben: Can happen. Bruce: It's like an Italian romance movie. Annika: Yes, I mean an Italian boy would be amazing. not too big because they are all very big who are living on the street, but that would be amazing. I So for this episode, I wanted to recommend a book called The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell. she's an applied animal behaviorist who wrote this book to help people like us to understand what dogs are actually communicating and what we are communicating back, often without even realizing. this is a book specifically about the human-dog relationship as a meeting of two very different species. And it's of insight about how attachment forms, how miscommunication happens and what it takes to really pay attention to an animal, which is all we all talk about. So with two dogs, the number of relationships in a room doubles, and this book helps you to be more present with all of the relationship if you want it. It's scientific and written for people like us who want to understand rather than just train. Ben: Cool yeah and we'd love to hear from you guys, know if you've got a multiple dog household, any difficulties you've had, all the good times, please let us know. Annika: Yes, message us on Instagram at Perplexity Podcast. Visit our site at perplexity.dog and subscribe to get even more information on our topics or leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. that generally helps us. So this was Perplexity and today we talked about two dogs and what changes when one dog becomes two or more pets. we'll be back next time with another everyday topic that turns out to be more complicated or easy than it looks. And thank you, Bruce and Ben, so much for sharing all of your stories. Ben: Cheers guys. Bruce: Thank you and remember to clean up after your dog or cat. Annika: Or cat. Bye. Bruce: Bye bye.