Annika: Welcome back to Pawplexity a podcast about her living with dogs. Keeps rewriting the way we live, we think and we try to figure things out. One German. Bruce: and cats. Ben: One Brit. Bruce: and one American. Annika: Three very different dogs and three lives forever changed by them. We met on the Isle of Dogs in London and we've kept talking ever since about behavior, instincts, heartbreak, hilarity and all the beautiful chaos that comes with sharing your life with a pet. I'm Annika and today we're talking about something most of us do regularly and still don't feel great about, leaving your dog alone. It's one of the first things we have to learn as parents and for a lot of us it never really becomes unemotional or easy. Bruce and Ben are here with me today to talk about what this actually looks like in their daily lives. Hi Bruce, hi Ben. Ben: Hiya, how you doing? Bruce: Hello everybody, thanks for listening. Annika: Let's start with the moment right before you leave. So I don't know why that moment carries so much weight for me, but Makenzie always knows when she's to be left alone and it's very difficult. How is it in your household? Ben: Still difficult for me to be honest. Bowie's got a place to stay now. I mean, he stays with my parents quite a lot when I'm at work and I do sort of weekend trips to London. But yeah, he's very aware of when he's coming with me when he's not. He's got a couple of key words. See, a bit easier now than when it was. Annika: How do you do that with a keyword? So he knows you say one word and then he knows he's not coming and he's okay? Ben: Uh, I, if I say I'll see you soon, it means I'm going for a while, maybe a few days. If I say I won't be long, it means I'll be back in a few hours. But if I say, Oh, you come in with daddy, he knows he's coming. He knows he's coming with me. So there's three, three different scenarios, which he's, he feels like if I say I won't be long, he'll be fine. He'll go and sit up on the ledge and look out the window until I'm back. If I say, see you soon. Annika: Any? Ben: He'll go and hide under the sofa. Yeah. And obviously if I say you're coming with daddy then he gets a bit more happy. Annika: So how long did it take him to understand that? Or how long did it take you to understand that he understands? Ben: I Honestly, a bit of a weird one, isn't it? ⁓ The word resonates with him for some reason. He knows that it's going to be a few days. ⁓ I don't maybe in the last couple of years he's ⁓ latched on my trips have become a bit more frequent. ⁓ So yeah, ⁓ he knows routine. He knows those words now and yeah, he knows what to expect. But he's happy, he's happy here, regardless. just, it's that initial, right, I need to, dad's going for a couple of days, I need to get over it. Annika: Yeah, he has cousins around him, right? So furry cousins, so he's happy and he's occupied. yeah. That's different here. How is it with you, Bruce? Bruce: Yeah, so Judge, he knows when I'm leaving for sure. I sometimes take him, but not as often probably as you've been. ⁓ But we always left him home from the start. We Cray trained him and it was pre-COVID, so we both worked. So he was always used to kind of being home. And the main thing is he just tries to get out. That's the big thing. He does know some keywords. Like if I say, you want to come? He'll know. like then he'll get all excited. But that's I guess the only keyword to when I leave that he knows. Annika: Didn't you say something about family walks? That he knows that all of you go together? Is that still a thing? Bruce: yeah, he knows that's ⁓ it's still a thing if we say do you want to go on a family walk? He gets all he gets all excited And he says wagging his tail. So yeah, I guess there's a few a few keywords Yeah, it's not like I agree Ben like it's not like I tried to train him on that. He just picked up on it So it's interesting how they pick up on some words and they know what they mean Ben: Yeah, ⁓ Annika: for Makenzie, She doesn't like to go outside, but then when she's outside, she doesn't like to go inside. She's a weirdo in that sense. ⁓ And then in the evening, we ask her, like, do you want to go Which in German we use like a cute word, is Püschern. And whenever we ask, like, do you want to go pee? And she's like, no. And then she hides under the bed. ⁓ That she knows. Bruce: Hehehehe Ben: ⁓ yeah. Bruce: Yeah, the Judge never hides. He's always ready to go. He's always excited. The biggest thing with me is I have to try to like block him from getting out. So, you know, if Tatiana and I are both leaving, I let her go first and then I play goalie. I'm like, you know, stay, stay. And then if I'm by myself, I just back out of the apartment and, you know, I'm behind first. So anyone walking down the hallway, you know, it's kind of awkward. Annika: Is Max picking up the habit? Bruce: Max, when we leave, we keep him in like a playpen. So he, cause he's not getting the fact that he can't just pee wherever he wants to. So we have a diaper on him and we keep him in the playpen. Yeah, still we have the mats. he does well. Like ⁓ it's, marking. So ⁓ I ⁓ once get him neutered, it'll be better. Annika: Mm-hmm. to. Still. Ben: How is it for Kens? Yeah. Annika: They're leaving. Well, it really depends for her. So we need to meet all her needs. So she needs to have a proper walk, proper food, like proper rest time. When you leave before the proper rest time, she usually is anxious and then she does just want to come. And but it's it really is weird about timing. human parents have that a lot when you to go out with a new human baby parent? They're always like I don't know if it works if it meets the cycle and I think it's the same with me leaving her because if too hungry or not rested enough or she doesn't feel well she does want to come and then she sneaks outside the door and then she's in the hallway having an angry zoomie ⁓ and then to try Yeah. Yeah Well, she has angry zoomies and zoomies. Bruce: ⁓ Ben: Angry zoomie I've never had an angry zoomie. Annika: I like physically her body language I think is pretty similar. It will weird Her face is just more tense she's a bit more aggressive So she to she's not like snapping or anything but she tries to physically like to body slam you a bit more like a happy zoom is just running around in the snow on the sand wherever and when she's like an upset zoomie she really is targeting you a bit more ⁓ Ben: Yeah. Bruce: Mm-hmm. Ben: Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, body slams. Annika: she is the most wonderful ⁓ but ⁓ she her opinions heard which ⁓ is Usually tell her like we're about to go but when I'm already anxious thinking like my god this is going to be long or I'm not ready to leave her and she picks up again as usual She mirrors me she picks up my anxiety I think and then she's like I'm not ready to stay alone and this time I get you to stay here Ben: Yeah. Annika: And usually when we leave, both of us, I go first and then Tobias because he's never that flustered. So when he leaves, she's always fine. Yeah. ⁓ Bruce: That's why Tatiana goes first. Because she's always like not paying attention, opens the door, Judge runs out. So gotta go first. He'll come back sometimes. Like another word that he is very well associated with is cupcake kisses. And those like his dental doggy treats. So if you say that, he'll come running back in. Ben: Yeah. Annika: But does he come back in is the question. Bruce: If you say, you want a cupcake? Because I have to be quiet because he could probably hear me. then he'll come running in. Yeah. Yeah. Then I have to give him one. If, because if I stopped giving him, then he wouldn't come in. Annika: actually one ⁓ then? Okay. Yeah. But then can you leave while he chews it? Because Makenzie would pick up even on that step. Like, okay, I get the cupcake thing, but you're still leaving. So she will pick up on that and then not fall for it ever again. Bruce: Yeah. ⁓ no, no, he loves them so much, he'll take it, he runs inside and then I can go out easily. Annika: He's so lovely. Bruce: Yeah, and then, yeah, it's like he eats them pretty quickly. It's not like one of the hard, hard chews It's kind of, I don't even know what they are, but they're like crack for dogs, I feel, because Judge and Max love them both. Like they go crazy. For the second I open the treat cabinet, they're like running up to me. They know exactly what's in there. Ben: easy did you guys do it from like did you guys leave them from though i found it much harder as when he a puppy to do it ⁓ when you're to do it Bruce: Yeah, it was hard. It was hard, but we had to because we both had work. So it was kind of like that was just the reality of the situation. It was pre covid. So none of this work from home stuff that wasn't like that wasn't a thing yet. You know, I think now it would be harder if like we had him during covid and then all of sudden had to go back to work. That would be harder because I think a lot of people unfortunately did get dogs or, you know, a pet. Ben: Yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah. Bruce: during that time period and they never had to leave. And then all of a sudden when the world got back to normal, people realized, ⁓ I can't have this pet anymore, dog, cat, whatever it was and had to give it up because yeah. Annika: Which has been Ben and me. No, we didn't, ⁓ Ben: Yeah, but we didn't give them up. never. No, I, yeah, I found it because like you said, well, both of us were got our dogs in COVID. so he was just so used to having us around. So even like my when there's little trips when you go out to the grocery store and you're to get your groceries. I remember being with my partner at the time I was just sort of like in the grocery trying to hurry her up. And I was like, come on, come on, come on. It's just like we've been 15 minutes and I'm like, can't. just, ⁓ the thought of him being was really hard for me. But it's just, yeah, ⁓ I found it difficult, more issue than his issue. Annika: was just wondering about that because I think it's a human issue and the dog just picks up on it. I mean, they need to learn and you need some patience to teach them. And it's not a natural state for a dog to be alone because they are just not self-sufficient in that way. Bruce: Yeah. Ben: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Bruce: the so that's the part with we got Furbo camera so ⁓ we could watch him and I have say I do love it. I use it all the time, but it does give more anxiety. Because like I can, when I turn it on, I see him and I can hear him barking and it kind of gives me anxiety that like my neighbors hear him. Everyone's going to like complain about us or you know, he's, he's just that miserable that we're gone and it kind of, it kind of breaks your heart a little bit. And so I remember, I think we got it in London. We might've gotten it in the U S before, like right before we moved. But I remember one time, Annika: Yeah. Bruce: I had just hooked it up and we went out somewhere and I looked at it and I literally went back home. I was like, we have to go home. He's still barking. It's like, it's been five minutes. He's still barking. And we went back to the apartment and Tatiana was like, we're never going to be able to do anything anymore. it does, it definitely does give, I feel like it gives me anxiety, but Furbo, if you want to sponsor us, it'd great. ⁓ Ben: Yeah. Annika: Definitely, huge fan of Furbo, not of the new AI tools because they are confusing, but the Furbo really was a game changer for us, or for me. Yeah. Bruce: Yeah, and I can give him treats and stuff through the thing. So, and I can talk to him and I can calm him down a little bit. He still barks, but is a very cool tool to have. ⁓ Annika: Yeah, I agree. Ben: into I think I remember seeing Neil's anica actually it looked quite cool. I did get myself a little camera and set it up and I was just I remember being at the cinema I don't have I've only used it once and I won't use it again because like you said I just gave I was just terrible I was in the cinema and I was looking and I was like look you know when you're in the cinema and you can't use a phone I'm just looking there down at the movie down at my phone and I'm like what's he doing but he fine he was just chilling Bruce: Yep. Ben: He was just walking from my room to the sofa and just sort of lounging around. He wasn't barking, he wasn't crying. Annika: Didn't it make it better for you? for... No. Ben: I know it made it worse. was just sort of like, I was just like, just seeing him pace, I think the pacing, was like, why is he pacing? Why isn't he settled? Why? So yeah, I was just, yeah, I don't, I don't look anymore. I mean, I do leave him now for like, up to three hours. That's my, that's sort of my limit. But he's got, you know. Annika: Yeah, okay. Yeah. Bruce: Yeah. Is that like your limit or is that how long he can go without like peeing or something? Ben: That's my limit. ⁓ no, he would go five, six hours without peeing. Annika: he can do. Bruce: Yeah, our limit is I like to be home in four hours, but like in reality he get to about probably about five before he start to pace because he's got to go out. ⁓ Ben: no, he could. I mean they go out what? I take Bowie out at 8 o'clock at night and he doesn't get up till 7 o'clock the next morning so they can go for a little, they can go for long time without a pee and a poo you know. Annika: Yeah. Bruce: Yeah, if they're sleeping if he's sleeping he'll make it that long but when he's up often like I would walk him around like seven or eight in the morning depending on the morning ⁓ and then I usually walk him 10 or 11 at night like right before I go to bed ⁓ and ⁓ so he does he have 12-hour period but he can definitely make it because sometimes won't like if it's the weekend I'll just kind of stay in bed ⁓ and and he'll just stay there with me ⁓ during the day I usually walk him like to five times a day ⁓ Ben: Yeah. Annika: Yeah. Ben: I'm out of here. Use two. Yeah, he's got some energy, don't he? Annika: Yeah. Bruce: Yeah, he likes to go out. Especially now it's super cold out. This might be a little too cold for him, but he loves the cold. Ben: Yeah. Annika: sled dog right? Bruce: Yeah, exactly. Like here I am thinking I'm freezing. I got to get back inside and he's like he wants to go to the dog park is another another trigger word for him. He knows that would do and he wants to like he's pulling me to the dog park and I'm like, dude, it's very cold. It's below zero. Annika: No! Makenzie goes out for snow. We say the German word for snow. She goes up to the window to verify it's actually snowing and then... Bruce: Uh-huh. Ben: Are they lying? Yeah. Bruce: She doesn't believe you. Annika: Yeah, because we did try. We kind of try to stretch the truth every now and then to convince her to do certain things, but snow she verifies. And then when she's satisfied with this, guess, size of the snowflakes, she's ready to go out and then she's happy. ⁓ with the camera, Ben, feel like because Makenzie, when she's settled, it is the most satisfying feeling in the world to watch every now and then on the furball ⁓ she's like fine and settled and sleeping somewhere. The best furball view for me is when she's not in sight. Bruce: ⁓ You Ben: Thank Annika: because that means she's somewhere in the bed or on the couch, not by the door, and she's not barking. So that if you get to that stage, the camera is really, really worth it. But to watch them like bark or be unhappy or or not settling, that heartbreaking, really. Ben: Yeah. think it's rare that he does that anymore. used to, when I used to go to the gym for an hour, I used to leave the apartment, used to hear him straight at the door barking. He hasn't done that for maybe a year or so now. ⁓ yeah, think he's getting used to it now because I'm back and I'm commuting, I'm going up to London two nights week. He's now getting into routine of not seeing me for those two days. So it's sort of like getting easier and getting easier. So yeah. ⁓ Annika: Hmm. Yeah. Bruce: Yeah, they definitely get used to stuff. That was one of the things that was hard with Judge because we got him pre-COVID, he used to us leaving and then all of a sudden we were home. And then think ⁓ Ben: You will know the way around, yeah. Yeah. Bruce: Yeah, we were around all the time. And so now I feel like he did kind of start to develop separation And then when we moved to London, I didn't work for four or five months. So I was always home. And then think he started to get attached, you know, more so. And also when had our house, ⁓ we had the ⁓ by the window. he was able hop up and look out the window and just that's where he would be. He would just ⁓ he would lay up He basically he looked almost like a cat, like a cat would lay in the window sill. Annika: Yeah. Bruce: And so that's where he would be. like as I would come home, I would see him sitting up there and like he'd start to get like he knew, I don't know how he knew, but he knew when my father-in-law was coming. all of a sudden he would jump up on the thing and my father-in-law would pull into the driveway. the same with the, are so small. I don't know if it was like some kind of noise that it made, but it was far away. like, I would know, like I would know that he's about to come home. Annika: They are so smart. Yeah. Ben: Meow. Yeah. Bruce: But yeah, loved seeing him up there when I would pull him to the driveway. He said he would get all happy when he saw the car. Ben: Nothing more satisfying than seeing the dog sit at a window when you pull up and they just know it's you and you can see the little happiness on their face. Bruce: Yes. Annika: Yeah. ⁓ Bruce: Exactly. He knows that, ⁓ yep, home. We're gonna have some fun now. ⁓ gonna get some attention and scratches. ⁓ Yeah, our apartment we have all these windows, but for some reason he sits on ⁓ table and stares at the door. ⁓ Yeah, on the table. Ben: yeah it's like this is the best day ever Annika: on the coffee table. Bruce: He jumps up onto the coffee table and then, it's actually glass, which kind of makes me nervous, but hasn't broke So I think we're good, but he also puts, he gets a little paw prints on it. So I can never have like a clean coffee table. ⁓ It's got all paw ⁓ Ben: That's his coffee table. Not your coffee table. Yeah it is. Bruce: Yeah, it's his coffee table. Annika: But isn't the couch more comfortable for him? That's a weird choice. Bruce: weird. ⁓ don't know when he started doing it. Like, well, no, he did it. ⁓ did it in London. He sat on that. He would get on that marble coffee table that we had in ⁓ Sailmakers. ⁓ think it's the coldness. He likes the cold. ⁓ Ben: I think it's the coldness, I think, maybe. And Bowie used to sit on a, Bowie used to sit on a, we had one of those glass, like, you know, one of those like glass side tables that like slip under the sofa. a little, Bowie used to sit, he used to sit on that glass table looking out over the street. Didn't use to sit on the couch. And again, like probably the same thing as Charles, like it's that cold, that cold feeling of the glass. But yeah, like. Bruce: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. Annika: Yeah. Bruce: When he wants to sleep, he'll go on the couch. Like, I'll see, like, I'll turn on the camera and I'll see him on the couch sometimes, but that's when he's sleeping. But when he's like, anxious that we're not home, he's on the coffee table staring at the door, and where he barks from. So, he'll up on the coffee table. It's the, I have pictures of it. ⁓ On my Ben: Yeah, yeah, when he wants to... There you go. it ⁓ my god. Yeah. It's like, it's hard, isn't it? When you, cause when you're going through that stage of like starting to leave them on their own. I mean, I spoke to a trainer when I was, ⁓ when he was a puppy and they're like, go like, like we discussed before, it's about leaving them for increments, little increments at a time, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever. And like, when you, when you come back, you don't, you don't reward, don't, you know, get excited. You just. Annika: You have to share them. Ben: because it excites them you know you need to go in and just not act like you've been away and just just walk in don't celebrate that's the hardest thing for me you want to come and be like hello like give them the little like you know give them a little hug and i still do now i that's one thing i never did i never i never did that i always celebrated Annika: That's so hard. Bruce: Yeah, I still do. Annika: same. Bruce: I think that, so they always say, the experts always say that don't have a concept of time. I think they're wrong. I that they can tell, you know, exactly. Ben: I think they're wrong. Annika: I agree. I agree. Ben: They know when breakfast is and they know when dinner is. know, they come up to you at breakfast time, they come up to you at dinner time. How do they know that? Bruce: Yep. Yeah. So I think they understand like if you're going well like you said before you have the different time frame trigger words and so he clearly knows that if it's going to be a couple of hours versus a couple of days he knows. Ben: Yeah, yeah, he knows. with hate, you know, Annika: For Makenzie, it's like four hours she can do, but at four hours every single time she gets a bit more like, okay, it's time that you come back. So she does have a concept of what is too long, which is always around the four hour period. So they do have a concept of time, I think. Ben: Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I mean, you do get smarter breeds, I guess. Maybe the smarter breeds have more of a concept and then, but I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Bruce: Yeah, I agree. Of course our dogs are all geniuses. Annika: They are, but like smart we do have to have an entire episode because there are so many concepts of intelligence and smartness around dogs and I do want to advocate for those that we may not consider smart. They have a different kind of smart. So. ⁓ I think he is. Well, he will show in due course. ⁓ Ben: Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Bruce: Yeah, well, I definitely don't consider Max smart. But I had to say, it's our fault. It's our fault. We haven't been training him as much as we did with Judge. But it's just because he's so hard. Every time we let him out of the pen, he just runs around like a crazy man because he's got so much energy. Ben: Night. Annika: He's still a puppy. There's too much like in his brain, the energy needs to come out somewhere, right? Bruce: Yeah, that's it Annika: coming back to the time, have you actually, when you trained Bowie with the Leaving Alone, have you tried with these increments of time, like five minutes, three minutes? Ben: Initially when he was a puppy, but now, now I just, I'm so aware of like when it gets past an hour, know, ⁓ I getting anxious myself. So, ⁓ not but, I still a little bit, but ⁓ he's got place to be now with his, ⁓ with some So he's, he's, ⁓ I get a little bit less stressed. Annika: I love that. I'm like you Ben, so every time I just turn around, I'm anxious, I can't leave her. it wasn't one of the things that we started training with, we had a trainer, but we had so many other things to look out for. So we didn't really think about leaving her alone because COVID and who thinks ahead. And then, which is also why we didn't crate train her because who thinks ahead, why? Everybody should, but now I have a different opinion. But back then it was just like, yeah, let's not, let's focus on the things that are more important right now. And then we didn't leave her alone. And then we moved to London when she was 11 months. And all of the sudden it was like, now you need to stay alone. And then we met Kasia who was like, why haven't you trained with her? She's 11 months. She should be able to cope. And I was like, well, we just arrived. only been here for three weeks. So we need to set her. like, no, second day you leave her alone. This is wrong. And then we, at one point we just started. Ben: Yeah. Yeah. Annika: to train and it was just a disaster because we just stood outside the door, is what I think is a mistake because she could still smell us and hear us. So she was upset. And then we sat down in the hallway, which I think went better and better. But we had like 10 minutes, five minutes, 10 minutes, five minutes. It didn't really go anywhere. And then we stopped training. And then at one point, because Tobias is the less emotional part in this relationship, she was just like, let's just go for a walk. Bruce: Yeah, yeah. Ben: Yeah. Annika: We'd try, let's just do it. Let's just leave her. Let's just try. And then in that moment, we were out for two hours because she was absolutely happy, fine, like settled We had like a blanket by the door. She was by the door, but she was lying on her side, super relaxed. And from that day on, it was fine. But she was like ⁓ more than two years by that time. And all the training, did build up in her, but she always needs like a month or two. to really, I think, think it through, maybe feel it through. And then all of a sudden it clicks and things are okay. And every single thing that she learned, she learned that way. The moment I gave up and I just ignored it for half a year and all of a sudden she can do it. It's so weird. Ben: Yeah. Bruce: I remember when you were doing the trying to leave her alone thing. Annika: Yes, we met in the hallway so many times. It like with the camera, was like, no, she's crying. Ben: Oh my god. It's so hard. It's so hard. was probably the hardest thing about the training and stuff. the leaving him part was just the worst. You can do everything else, but that separation when you get so attached to your dog is, yeah. Annika: Yeah. Did you ever have to leave them in a moment where you were super worried? So did you the difference ⁓ them when you leave? When you have to, you can't really not leave? Ben: I mean, when we had to leave him, when I got him shipped back to the UK, was the worst day ever. He was only five months old, so he still just this little puppy, this innocent puppy. We met the guy downstairs and he big van. We gave Bowie to him and he got put into the back of this van to this crate and he just stared at me like this and was just so ⁓ frightened. Annika: month. Ben: And I was like, ⁓ fuck now. Yeah, it was just really difficult because I was like, I'm not going to see him for two days. he's... ⁓ Yeah, yeah, no, he was trained. He was great trained. So I knew and had a couple of items of our clothing. So he had ⁓ the... Yeah, yeah, he had to... He could have one bit of clothing. ⁓ he had a t-shirt, I think. Bruce: Hehehehehe. Annika: But did you train in the crate? So was you traveling in a crate that you trained? ⁓ yeah, well. Yeah. ⁓ you were allowed to give that to him, because we weren't. Bruce: Yeah, that would have freaked me out. Ben: But yeah, that was awful. It was just awful. And I was like, he hasn't been away from us for more than five minutes. So now it's two days of him. then he's just so good with people ⁓ adapting to a situation. Like the guy would send me photos of him in the office, just chilling on the floor with ⁓ the people in the office. like, okay, he's happy. Like he's in his element. He's getting lots of attention. Annika: more than five minutes. Same. Ben: But yeah, that was tough because you know, had no choice but to leave him. Annika: I like it's you are always the more emotional element in that regard Same. ⁓ Ben: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah. Terrible. Absolutely terrible. Bruce: Hmm Annika: So he isn't, because as long as he's happy with people, he doesn't seem to be bothered. Yeah. Ben: Yeah, like he's, he's, he's with some, some, he's still, probably when underlying like, ⁓ God, I wish my dad was here kind of thing. But he's, if he's with people and he's always with dogs, he's, he's happy cause he's sort of, he likes to think of himself as in charge. You know, he's the one, he's a big boy. ⁓ it's ⁓ I'm the problem. I'm the problem. Yes, we do. ⁓ Annika: Yes, I figured. We need a trainer for you and for me. it the four I want to say because now it's four ⁓ Patches, Max and Bruce: Yeah. So we haven't really done traveling we've had the four of them. But ⁓ first we ever left him for days at a time was when we were in London. And that was because I was freaking ⁓ I didn't want to trust anybody. We had recommendations for dog sitters. And of course, we had to leave our list. But yeah, was the hardest part. When I leave during the day, I know I'm coming back. I know he'll be okay, so it doesn't really give me too much anxiety. I know for him, he definitely stresses out, but nothing I can do about it. So, he's just gotta deal with it. Annika: How was that because in beginning you said he crate train so he was quite happy at home. But then we go pre-COVID is something that I can't even imagine. So how did you train him to be happy with that? Bruce: Yeah, I So we just put him in the crate. You know, we did what we were supposed to do. You know, when we were home, he was still in the crate. You know, things like that. So he got really comfortable. Annika: Mm-hmm. Bruce: The reason why it freaked me out when he would bark when we moved to London was because we were in an apartment building. We had a house in the US before we moved. If he barked, it was not going to disrupt anybody. I didn't want to be kicked out. We had just moved in to the sale makers, and he's going crazy. I'm like, oh my God, they're going to kick us out. He is a service dog. He's like a legit service dog. Technically, he's supposed Annika: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bruce: to be well trained, he is, but when you leave, it's like all bets are off, you know, like he does what he's supposed to do. But when we leave him home, he wants to come out. So that was why I got freaked out and went home because I was like, ⁓ my God, you know, we're going to get kicked out. then but like said, once people weren't complaining, was like, all right, we could leave him more often. And he doesn't bark the entire time. He eventually calms down. no one really no one really ever complained so I was I was okay with that and it's the same here Well, we are it's like I get nervous because I don't want anyone complaining but I do like some comfort because so many people have dogs now and That like I think people just understand. It's like alright. I know it's annoying but ⁓ I don't think they could hear too much or else they would be complaining, you know Yes ⁓ Ben: you Annika: You would especially in a dog-friendly building you would just expect Ben: And the dog's not gonna bark for the full two, three hours while you're away, is it? It's gonna be like a crick. Really? Bruce: ⁓ he might. Well, so that's why I don't look at this Furbo that much anymore. Annika: Yeah, then you wouldn't, no, but you will come back, wouldn't you? Ben: Yeah. Annika: No. Ben: ⁓ god. Annika: ⁓ Bruce: last night we went out to dinner and I checked it. Every time I checked it within two seconds I heard a bark. we were only gone for like maybe an hour and half two hours, so it wasn't that long So usually gets tired after a little while and then he'll go to the cat He'll be all right there obviously not listening to me. So then go to the couch until they down Ben: Yeah. Annika: Yeah. But was it only Judge or did you hear Max as well? Bruce: last night I only heard Judge, but they usually both bark together. And Max's bark is actually louder than Judge's. I know, but it's more annoying. And it's like a higher pitch and it's louder. Annika: haha do think max will forever be in the playpen when you leave or are you going to train him Bruce: be hell. Yeah. mean he's still fairly young I mean he we he's only he's like seven months like he's still a puppy puppy like he's not I just think that I to do a better training him. ⁓ The thing is we started off I wanted I don't like the wee wee pad thing Annika: Yeah. Bruce: But he needed to do it because it is so cold outside. Right now, I don't think I can take him outside. He's too small. He's short hair, so he doesn't have that coat. Judge has the double coat. So we had to kind of do the wee wee pad training so he goes On it for the most part, but he mark he's still mark Ben: more. Bruce: And that's what I have to figure out So any from everybody out there you could leave it in the comments ⁓ Annika: Yeah, send them in, send them in. But also I feel like he has a tiny bladder because his body is so small, so maybe he can't really hold it. Bruce: Probably and I think when he the second he feels like he's got to go he goes So as he gets older and and gets a little bit more comfortable with that. I think it'll it'll get better with time Annika: A friend of mine has a toy poodle, She's the cutest, but she's tiny. I don't even know if it's a toy poodle or something even smaller, but her bladder is so small that during the night she has to pee because she cannot hold. ⁓ Bruce: up, yeah, I've been waking up at like two in the morning and I put him on his mat and because he has an accident on the bed So now I'm just paranoid. Annika: Rus you shared already that London you left him less alone. So that kind of changed your perception of how you leave him alone, how you feel. So I feel like in London, you were maybe more emotional as compared to before. Bruce: Guess. I because like I said, ⁓ with I started to stay more with him. So it was harder to leave him. When we first got him, I would put him in the crate and you know, like I would think about it, but I also knew Tatiana was coming home to, know, to like walk him and, know, so wasn't totally alone. And, and then had, Annika: Yeah, yeah. Bruce: Like my in-laws moved in for a little bit so they would be there with him. it wasn't horrible. Like was more, it was just us. know, so only time that he went out, ⁓ know, like we also ⁓ used her she would walk him. And ⁓ so was fun because he got to go on his little walks. But other than really ⁓ that was the only, you know, relief that we had. So it was always, I just always with him. Ben: you have a walker as well didn't you and i think it's didn't yeah Annika: Yeah, Kasha. Best. Best time. But did it for you? ⁓ When it change? Like moving countries, did it change anything for you? Ben: I guess it was long as I my own, was harder because I guess there was always two of us when he was in Canada, so it was kind of like give and take. And you know, if I wanted to go out and spend a couple of hours with a friend or something, then I could do that and not worry. Whereas now it's sort of like, is there anyone around or do I have to leave them on their own? So yeah, it's harder when you're on your own without a second pair of hands. Bruce: That was the nice thing about London. It's like, if I wanted to take him to a pub, it was fine. Like over here, it's not that easy. And on top of it, you know, I, I just took the train everywhere in London so I could, you know, took, take the train, go get a pint, don't have to worry about driving and bring him with me. You know, over here, it's like, I can't, I don't take him anywhere because it's just not, it's not as dog friendly. Annika: I agree. Ben: Yeah. Annika: Yeah. take him. Ben: Yeah. Yeah, it's not the same. Yeah, I mean living where we lived was really helpful in London. ⁓ ⁓ so many different friends. So everyone was like, ⁓ so many offers about when I was going to the office, know, leave me with me, leave me with me. ⁓ they were genuine. Like they were like, I to do that. But I used to get messages from from people saying, ⁓ do you want to leave us there if you go into the office rather than me reaching out? Annika: Yeah, it was the best. Bruce: Yeah. Annika: And they were all genuine. Yes. ⁓ Ben: Did Bowie ever have a sleepover at yours? He did, didn't he? was... That's right. That's right. No. He did alright though, didn't he? He was fine. Yeah. Annika: Yeah, while you were at a Christmas party. I'm not sure if you want to share any details. Bruce: Ahem. Annika: He was lovely. was on the bed. Makenzie, surprisingly, she was fine as well. So he was a bit anxious because I think he didn't understand. ⁓ Maybe you just told him that you're going to pick him up in a couple of hours and he wasn't really prepared. Yeah. he was like when were in bed, he was fine. He just jumped on and then cuddled all night and he was absolutely fine. Yeah, very sweet. Ben: Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. yeah. ⁓ good, yeah. Bruce: Yeah, that's how judges like when we had the dog sitter was like ⁓ it's fine that I'm gone. It's not that he misses me. He just doesn't want to be alone So I'll get that straightened out. It's not that he's actually missing, you know, me or Tatiana. As long as he's got attention, he's okay. yeah, he slept. We told the dog centers, we're like, the only thing is he's going to want to sleep with you. And like, you know, he's a very good cuddler. So just let him on the bed and let him sleep with you and everything will be fine. And they did. They send pictures and stuff. Annika: I think for Makenzie is the other way around. She does like attention and she does like people to come over, but then wants her own space because we tried so many ways, like bring her somewhere, have somebody in our place. And whenever it's like getting ready for the night, she just refuses. She's just like, when you get ready for bed, you're not my mom, you're not my dad, you're not sleeping here. This is not where you belong. Go away. So it is very clear that it's uncomfortable for both of them. But even she, we to leave her alone, I think she prefers to be in her own Ben: ⁓ Annika: alone rather than having somebody there who's just like in her space no matter how much she loves them. I remember having having brought her over to Santi and um crystals because I was going out with Tatiana and Crystal and I'm like okay the four because it was supposed to be a bit longer so four to five hours and I felt like well she loves the dragons love Santi why not and after two hours he was texting like can you come home because she's she's not happy she doesn't like to be here Bruce: Mm-hmm. ⁓ Annika: And alone she's quite okay. as we said, when we have met all her needs, can be, the we did was five hours and I don't like it, so I get anxious after an hour. But I think four hours is every now and then we can do and it should be doable even for them, even though they are not made to be alone. But I think it's feasible if it's not like an everyday thing for more than four hours. Ben: Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. Annika: A friend of mine, she's sharing her dog with her ex-fiancé. So they lived together, had the dog for many years and then they split up. So they now sharing the dog. Lisa is her name. She is one week with her, one week with him. And they figured out like a really well, well, ⁓ really good amicable agreement. have the keys to each other's houses. So they spend time together, all of that. But at one point she just, it was so funny because she just, just like, well, I forgot that he Bruce: A custody agreement. Annika: didn't pick her up that day. So I went to work thinking that Lisa would be picked up during the day. And then at the end of the workday, she was like going out with a friend, everything's planned and set up. And at the end of the workday, she was like, ⁓ my God, I forgot the dog. my God. And she's at home all along. She must be angry, anxious, everything. So she just like left everything, went home, didn't have a camera, went home, like crying, exhausted and like embarrassed. opened the door and the dog was like on the couch, super relaxed, absolutely happy. Like, don't worry about it. I'm fine. is amazing. was a long day. And if get to that stage where the dog is more relaxed than you are, that's like ⁓ quite an Yeah. Bruce: Yeah. Ben: Yeah. Yeah, perfect. Bruce: Yeah. Yeah. The biggest worry that I have when I'm out is he's kind of mischievous. And we still our house, Tatiana came home one from work to, to, you ⁓ take him out and make sure he's okay, whatever. And that time he was out of the crate. And so Tatiana saw this stuffing, like this fluffy stuffing all over the place. And she's like, she couldn't see where it was from. It looked like he chewed open a toy or something. And he was laying on the bed and he put his feet like this. And, and then all of a sudden Tatiana moves him and he had eaten a hole in the couch and he covered it And he covered it up. Like it was crazy. He knew, he knew it was wrong. Annika: Aww. ⁓ no. Ben: my god. ⁓ Bruce: And so he covered it up. She took video of it. I have the video of it. And like he gets himself in trouble. now we have the cat, Nipsey, she'll knock stuff over. So even if put it, ⁓ know, out of his reach, she'll knock it over and gets to it. So now I to really, you know, proof everything before I leave. Yeah. Ben: Little devil. Annika: everything but they work so well together. Ben: Yeah. Jesus. Bruce: They do. They do. And Max and Nipsey really, they're a good duo. They love playing. They wrestle. Ben: Bowie did something similar with a mesh crate, one of those like, you know, softer stuff. that was early when we leaving him for 20 minutes. So was 20 minutes, went to the grocery store, came back and he in his mesh crate. I opened the front door and he was just sat right in front of me with a big smile on his face, like ragging his tail. And I'm like, ⁓ my God, just the hole in the mesh crate. Like straight through Annika: Mm-hmm. Bruce: Yeah, yeah. He chewed. chewed right through it. ⁓ Ben: So proud of himself. I'm like, ⁓ Annika: We'll never do that again. Bruce: Well at least it was just a mesh crate. He ruined the whole couch. like, this is an expensive chew toy. Ben: wasn't a sofa ⁓ yeah Annika: quite a large one. So is there, apart from the mesh toy, is there anything that you would do very differently now with all of that experience and time that has gone by? if you had to start again? Ben: I definitely get used to like doing leaving them from an early age and just going to do my own thing for like an hour or so just getting them used to it. I think so, I think so because I think it's so important like knowing the the things that it hinders me from doing now because I still get anxious so like I can't go out for a few hours because unless he's with someone I just get too anxious. Yeah think that Annika: But could you though? Yeah. Ben: having trained the dog to have that sort of independence is so important because it frees you up a little bit more. My life is sort of dictated about who's going to be with Bowie, is he going to be okay? I think that's a good thing because it's a good dog parenting but he still needs to live at the end of the don't you? Annika: Yeah, you need a bit of mental freedom to just like recharge because caregiving like around the clock isn't easy. Yeah, even though it's like if a fun floofball, you still have all that responsibility Yeah. Ben: Night. what about you? Annika: me I do anything different. Why? My life perfect. I agree. I think I would do without a lot of these things that people tell you to do, like the basic obedience, which is obviously important, but I would work much, much earlier on the boundaries, which also includes giving them the security to understand better. Ben: No. Bruce: Hahaha! Ben: Yeah ⁓ Yeah. Annika: make good decisions and absolutely leaving them alone for a bit is absolutely important. So would start much, much, much earlier and not make it such a happening. And just like ⁓ that your emotional state such an impact on them when you leave. If I hadn't known that, think would have gotten there much, much, much, much faster. Ben: about you very soon. Bruce: Yeah, I think Judge, think everything we did was pretty much spot on. ⁓ You know, again, left him because we had to. It was pre-COVID and we worked. So I he got fairly comfortable, especially in his crate. I mean, he's sitting in his crate right now. You know, so just where he goes to when he wants to lay down. Annika: Yeah. Ben: That's so good. Bruce: You know that made us able to at least live our lives ⁓ obviously we a time frame You know like I said earlier I don't I try not do more than four but like he could extend it to five hours ⁓ So it's not we could you know just pick and leave for the day You know and completely leave him but for the most part If we want to go to dinner or lunch or whatever brunch, you know, we we do it We don't there's nothing that's holding us back in that in terms of that and we're doing basically the same thing with Mac. He's just a little bit younger and we've got a little more ways to go with him. then the cats are easy. That's the one thing with cats you don't have to worry about. You you put out, you know, they have Yeah, they're much independent. Annika: Yeah. Ben: cats? yeah i'm ⁓ Annika: Yeah, and cleaner so they don't mind. Yeah, they Bruce: Yeah. You know what? I don't know about that, but they say it, but they look themselves with, and that's how they, so I mean, if you looked at yourself, are you clean? You know, it's, it's like, we take showers at least. Yeah. Well, they say they, they say they have an enzyme that like it breaks down and so it is kind of clean, but yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Dogs do that too. Yeah. Annika: Yeah. True, let's investigate, let's investigate. Let's park that for another. Ben: Yeah. Annika: But dogs do that, do half that as well. Yeah, same thing. Ben: Yeah, don't do it. Annika: Yeah. Okay, for this we want to do another book tip, going back to Leaving Your Dog Alone. And this one is a book called Be Right Back by Julie Naismith. She's a certified dog trainer and behavior specialist, her work focuses almost entirely on dogs who struggle with being left alone. And she also hosts the podcast on the same topic, which is super interesting to listen to. And what I like about this book is that it takes the experience seriously without turning it into blame, because mostly it's about like blaming the human not being able to train the dog or the dog not being able to cope. So, and she takes the blame out of it and explains it in really small portions that ⁓ you digest and just go with. Bruce: Mm-hmm. Annika: So even if separation anxiety isn't something you're dealing with, the book still helps to understand why leaving can feel very heavy, which Ben and I can explain in more detail as well. Bruce has managed better. it's a very good book to read. And if you have any thoughts on that, please share. Ben: Yeah, any stories that any of you have about leaving your dogs alone? Any anecdotes? ⁓ Hit us up. Let us know. We'd to hear them. Annika: it. Yeah, you can message us, you can comment, or you can share your experience with us wherever you're listening to your podcast. So this is Pawplexity and today we talked about leaving your dog alone. We'll be back next time with another everyday moment that turns out to be more complicated than it looks. And thank you, Bruce Thank you, Ben, for sharing all your stories. Ben: Cheers guys. Bruce: Thank you everybody, thanks for listening and don't forget to pick up after your pet.