speaker-1: trust. And I think trust is such an important theme on so many levels. And there are lots of reasons not to trust in relationships, faith, and so on. My own view is that trust is really what belief and faith are all about. It's the sort of cash value of faith. And this is about does the early church still trust in Jesus, even when he seems to be sort of far away across the sea? you know, that's obviously a theme that you can bring out into both church and personal faith in the present day.

speaker-0: Hello and welcome back to How Then Shall We Preach from St Martin in the Fields with me, Jolly Gosnald.

speaker-1: me some walls.

speaker-0: Good to be with you, sir.

speaker-1: It's very good to be with you.

speaker-0: Where in the world are you? 'Cause we're not in our cozy little studio in London right now.

speaker-1: We're not in our cozy little studio. I am in Washington, DC, just two blocks from the White House. And I am in what used to be known as the capital of the free world.

speaker-0: Ha you haven't had eyes on the Donald then, since you've been there?

speaker-1: We obviously usually get together when I'm in town. Yeah, My schedule was too full on this occasion.

speaker-0: And are you there for preaching purposes?

speaker-1: I'm doing a number of things while I'm here. of my time is being spent working with New York Avenue Presbyterian Church, which is just a couple of blocks from where I'm staying. it's church that historically has had very close links with Congress and the White House. And like a lot of churches, I guess, has... time has moved on and they're looking to refresh their vision for the next couple of decades and they've asked me to join them. But while I'm here, I've spent some time at Virginia Seminary where they're holding an interesting seminar on AI and pastoral care. And so I spent yesterday afternoon discussing such things as if a parishioner tells you that she has been spending a lot of time with her chatbot, but that chat GBT has updated. And therefore she's the chatbot has lost all its memory of who she is. She feels like it's a bereavement, but she feels too embarrassed to ask for a funeral. So how do you handle the so we've been discussing sort of case histories like that. And it's been rather fascinating.

speaker-0: Fascinating.

speaker-1: Wow. There's people there from the AI world and people there from the what's called CPE, clinical pastoral education, which is quite an industry here. You know, so we've got quite a spectrum. I'm obviously there from a different perspective. And that's been quite rewarding. And I'm also scrolling away to do a bit of writing for a couple of days.

speaker-0: Very good. Well, it's good place to do it. And thank you for making the time to still be with our lovely listeners and viewers.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: we're looking at the readings for the 9th of August this week. and I I think we've got a bumper set here. So I think there's lots to get your teeth into.

speaker-1: I was done jolly well.

speaker-0: absolutely. Whoever wrote it, no, I think we've got lots to enjoy, so I think we should jump in to be honest. and we are starting in Genesis chapter thirty-seven and well the headline as it says in my version here is Joseph Sold by His Brothers. very famous story. obviously this sort of beginning of well not the beginning of the story, but of Joseph's exile as it were from the family. I'm sure there's plenty of things you can say about this, but I suppose I'm wondering who perhaps should we read Joseph as?

speaker-1: So say a bit more about the question.

speaker-0: Well I suppose, you know, I I might normally think, okay, so i is this sort of Israel, you know, and we you know, in exile and that sort of thing. But then I think, well, Jacob is the father of this of Joseph as the character in the story. So does it make sense would one read it as that's Israel in exile or

speaker-1: That's a very good question. it's a multi layered story. It's extraordinary that it takes up a quarter of the book of Genesis. It doesn't get theological scrutiny of quite a lot of other parts of Genesis get. I heard a very interesting reading of the Joseph story that highlights it, Judah and Judah's role throughout the story. the tendency, a bit like Jesus and the disciples is not to pay attention to which of the disciples is speaking is just another of the brothers. know, Ruben is mentioned in this story, Judah is mentioned, obviously, Benjamin gets quite a shout out later in the story. And you sort of glaze over and you don't really notice. But this was a very interesting reading that said the story is really all about Judah. And that was so that's worth that's worth pursuing. And Judah does speak up in this story with words of mercy, and decides to sell him rather than kill him. So there's a top line of the story that is about the themes we've talked about in previous weeks. Fraternal rivalry is huge. And if you haven't reached on in previous weeks, this is another place to do so because it such a big part pastoral in many people's lives. sibling rivalry, I guess we should extend it to. But then the God's ability through providence to bring good out of bad is a huge theme. But we'll talk about that probably more next week, because I think the reading next week is more relevant to that theme. Although the whole story is about that. It's all about you meant it for evil, God meant it for good. But that does come up much more prominently in subsequent week or two. tracing back into history, I'm pretty sure it's called etiology, but I'm not 100 % confident about that. Which, you know, remembering that all of these brothers were different tribes by the time this was written. So that sense of each tribe tracer, you know, tracing back, we were on the right side of this. So the only people whose names get recorded, I think, in this story are the ones that showed mercy. The rest of the brothers, their names are not recorded. So there's a subtle way of not being able to pin the blame on anybody. We get references to other names that come up, Gilead, the Midianites, the Ishmaelites, you know, they're sprinkled through the story. And that's also fascinating. We've got Shechem, which I think is usually thought of as Nablus today, where I spent a summer back in the 80s. And, you know, it's such a small country. as has, you know, can often be lost in the discussion about contemporary politics and war. That these places are only a short distance from each other, and many of them are still there today, and you can go and visit them. You can go and visit them in quieter times. So there's, there's so much going on in the story. I'm not sure this is probably the week, I think it's probably next week that you're going to want to preach on this story. But the sense of a terrible thing that was done that can remain in a family or a country's history for hundreds of years is very powerful. And who was at fault? He was asking for it, really. mean, we don't get in here the story of his dream about them all bowing down to him and so on. But the way that he has this exalted idea of himself from an early age and inspires the envy of his brothers, you know, is fascinating. But there's also, as I think possibly you were hinting at in your question, there are some profound Jesus themes here. You know, he is kind of he goes down into the pit, he kind of dies, and is raised back up again. He from a very early age realizes he's different from everybody else. You know, there are some uncomfortable Jesus themes here at some at some respects. So an awful lot to play with that. But I don't think there's you know, there's a smoking gun. that demands to be preached on all of that.

speaker-0: Yeah, fair enough. You also we talked a few weeks back, about I can't remember which reading we were using for it actually, but we were talking about modern slavery. If people didn't take up your suggestion that week, do you think this you could use this to have that conversation too? or is that too on the memory?

speaker-1: The curious thing about this passage is slavery is presented as a mercy. Yes. Yes. to death. Right. If you were going to do a revisionist history of the slave trade, by which I mean, a close examination of the prevalence of slavery in West Africa. During the years when ships carried slaves across the Atlantic, you know, because people who want to dismantle the case for apparitions will point out that this was people who were already slaves being taken as slaves to America rather than people who were free being taken to America and made into slaves. you know, that would be very complex. If you want to go into all of that, and obviously the history is all disputed. Sure. I'm not sure this would be the obvious one. Because it is a, it is a basically a redemption story from from which out of the slavery came freedom. But there is clearly a parallel here between Joseph being at slavery at later imprisonment and the different kind of imprisonment constituted by the famine. Yeah. And then obviously, slavery. and prison is so written into the story of the Old Testament through the Exodus and exile. So, you you could try and draw all of that together as a whole canonical theology out of this reading, but I think it's a bit of a stretch.

speaker-0: Yeah. Okay, well let's move on then to first Kings chapter nineteen and we have another well famous passage here of Elijah. a thing that stands out to me, and I don't know whether it's worth commenting on whilst preaching, is the big chunk of repetition, which I haven't really I don't think I've ever really noticed before in this, that in verse ten. and then repeated in verse fourteen. It's essentially the exact same words, but quite a big chunk. is that notable or is it just a quirk of the rhetoric or

speaker-1: Well, mean, most of all, what are you doing here, Elijah, is repeated. Yes. The most powerful repetition. It's very much a feature of Semitic storytelling of the ancient Near East at the time. And you get a bit of it in the parables. If you look at Matthew 25, the sheep and the goats parable, you get a lot of repetition in the parable. out. So that it's tempting when you're using it as a reading in church to cut it down to half the length, because it says most of what it needs to be said in half the verses. I think this is a passage, well, it's, I've been doing a bit of reading about the transfiguration and part of my studies here in the last few days. And, you know, this is a contrast with Moses, Moses goes on a mountain, does have an earthquake, does have wind, does have fire. All of those things are associated with Sinai and the giving of the Ten Commandments. then, so Elijah is clearly being contrasted with Moses here. And of course, they both appear on the Mount of Transfiguration. That's a New Testament. But from a Christian point of view, that's not a problem. So there's a contrast. there between the bank crash and the still small voice or the sound of sheer silence as it's translated in RSV. And there's something here about running away from genuine danger. But it is it's a gift really for us for a vocation. So, you know, I think I think you're, you're quite probably going to want to preach a vocation sermon on this. It starts with a whole you know, what are you doing here, Elijah, what a whole lot of excuses. anxiety, genuine fear, but reasons why not. And then an expectation that if God's will is to be made clear, will be done in a dramatic fashion. And then the realization that the sound of sheer silence actually is the way that God has made present, then we get what are you doing here, Elijah, you know, the other side of that revelation. Elijah still hasn't done done anything. And then, you know, comes out with all the same reasons again, which is the repetition that you've referred to. And then is given his commission. So I think in terms of a core narrative, this is very compelling as a as a personal one. And I think Well, the tendency to turn every passage in scripture as a word from the Lord to the individual in the pew is obviously, when I've criticized, I think here it's very, very tempting. I I would probably succumb to the temptation.

speaker-0: to essentially leave people asking or or hearing God asking them, What are you doing here? essentially.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I've sometimes done that a number of times done that with passage, I can think particularly of say, the Elijah and Elisha passage, which we'll probably get to in when we get to this summer, I'm not sure. Anyway, that you can read it three times, you know, can read it in the context of the Old Testament period, you can read it in the context of early church, and you can read it today. And you can perhaps read it personally as well. So possibly four dimensions. And I think that can be very compelling way of doing of executing a passage like this. But but this is such a rich passage with so many vivid things in terms of the excuses and in terms of the kind of Elijah being skewed really, that I think you might just want to take it at face value. You know, include quite a lot of humor, because there is quite a lot of humor in the passage. But basically, lead people to a place where you're saying Elijah was called anointed Hazael as king over Aram. I suspect that's probably not how he's spread Hazael might be today. But Let's look at what those may be telling you through this message.

speaker-0: Yeah, nice. Very good. All right. let's continue on then. and we we talked a bit last week about this sort of journey through Romans from nine to eleven. and we are now in Romans ten. the again, a line that stands out for me. I don't know if we've talked about this before in our in our many years doing these conversations now. but Verse nine here is like it's one of those pas one of those verses that in my old evangelical formation I would hear like every week 'cause it was kind of used as part of this kind of altar call, confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart and you'll be saved. And this was the kind of this was what I feel like quite a lot of more evangelical Christians would like pin a lot of their practice and faith on. would I dunno, how would you interpret such a line, such a line of scripture, and what do we do with it?

speaker-1: Well, I'm sure you've memorized our conversation from last time. Very well. We talked about the kind of four things that are going on in Romans 9 to 11. Coming to terms with Jews not accepting the gospel. Then exploring how it could be possible for Gentiles to receive the gospel. and then perceiving how God uses the conversion of the Gentiles to bring the Jews to faith, and all is happy ever after. So if you recognise that the verse that was so dear to the heart of those who formed you some years ago, is, you know, is not written in a collection of choice quotations to which the New Testament can be reduced to, say, be reading the rest. But he's actually, it has a context, what Paul is doing here is something that most Christians today don't struggle with. But for him was a huge struggle, which is, you know, the two struggles, first of all, how can it be? that the Messiah comes and Jews don't expect on the whole accept him. And secondly, how can it possibly be that God's promises to the chosen people can be extended to Gentiles? How can that possibly happen for him that is staggering? And so he is finding scripture text from the Old Testament as we call it. that might make sense of that extraordinary turnaround. And so he finds this text, the word is near you in your mouth, and in your heart and quotes this text. And he uses this text to say that the you in that passage refers to the Gentiles or can refer to anybody. I'm not sure on what basis he really makes that claim, but that's what he does. And then he goes on to expand on that assertion. to say that the word being near you in your mouth and on your heart. Do you see? then in verse nine, he's using the same language. If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart, then you can be included within God's blessing to God's chosen people. So it's not... kind of thing you simply say to somebody who walks in off the streets and they say, how do I become a Christian? And you give them Romans 10 verse nine from cold is part is part of an argument that says against Paul's better judgment, that you, you can be enfolded into God's mercy, even if you're a Gentile. You know, I imagine in this imaginary scene that somebody walks in off the street into a church, you happen to be there yourself. And they say, I'd like to become a Christian. Paul is assuming you say, well, you don't look like a Jew to me. think you're gonna, I think it's gonna be a stretch. I'm not sure if we can fit you in. And then, you know, verses 10 and nine, change the argument. And we say, well, I think we, I think a seat's just become available. So

speaker-0: yeah.

speaker-1: that's the context before for what what's happening here. And he you know, the and then he goes on to say there's no distinction between Jew and Greek. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, which is a much more compelling quotation than the one he used. But then and then he finishes this passage, obviously, it's a passage chosen for for a reading rather than the whole of Romans nine to 11. But this sort of section, it comes to a climax in if the Gentiles can be saved, then we've all got to be missionaries. So you can follow the sort of the logic of the argument, but it isn't a knockdown way of answering the question. You know, what must I do to to inherit eternal life, if you like. It has its own context. It's perfectly easy to see how it's often taken out of its context, but it does belong in that context.

speaker-0: a very refreshing way to hear those words and I will probably never hear them the same again. So thank you for that. Good. Is there anything else you want to share on that one before we go to the last

speaker-1: I think, I mean, I think there's a couple of things to say. First of all, as I said, I think last time we talked, I think there is a sermon to be preached about how Gentiles come to be saved. I think it's an important sermon to preach in the context of the last few years, where conversation about Judaism has you know, unfortunately, for political reasons being shrunk down into a debate about the horrors of what's been taking place in Gaza. And that's led to attacks on Jews and all sorts of things which are tragic, really, because while there are some people outside Israel who have supported the government's policies there, I don't think that's the majority of Jews in the UK. And that basic humility of the church before the Jews to say we have been grafted into your family, you know, has has been smothered, really. So I think that it is timely and one of the Sundays in August when the when Romans nine to 11 is in the lectionary to preach a sermon about all of that, that doesn't lead with words like genocide and so on. Because there are theological issues here that abide. I'm not saying there isn't a place for addressing those other issues, I imagine most churches will have found that place by now. But this is the overarching theological context. so I'm not sure this is the right passage for that. You know, I think but it might be. But in terms of another theme, the verse that stands out for me is verse 11. No one who believes in him will be put to shame. I think, you know, shame existed before Brene Brown started talking about it. sure.

speaker-0: About that.

speaker-1: I'm not 100 % sure. But her phrase that guilt is about what you've done and shame about it is about who you are, I think is just has been such a transformative for praise for so many people. I think this there are passages that are obviously about shame, the woman with hemorrhages being an obvious one, the woman caught in adultery is another obvious one. And the cross is obviously often referred to as an instrument of shame. But I think this, you know, this could be a good Sunday tucked away in August to talk about shame and how the good news takes shame away and yet how the church has, and society in other ways, have reinvented it tragically. and somehow feel it can do some good, which it can't. Shaming people is now a huge part of social media culture and so on. And there's a thing called holding people to account, which is for their sake, as well as to vindicate those they have damaged. But the way shaming people is conducted in public life today is not about that. so I do think there's something significant to be said about shame, and this would be the time to say.

speaker-0: Yeah, great. Okay, let's go on to the gospel then, and finish up there. Again, a very famous passage, a very one that people will be very familiar with, the image of Jesus walking on the water and Peter sort of drowning and being lifted up. Again, one we've heard so many times. How do we make this fresh for our congregations today?

speaker-1: I think this really is one of those passages you would do at the time in the early church and today. So there are lots of resonances here about the sea and that means the Exodus, know, to some extent the Jordan. It's about Clearly it's a statement of Jesus' power to overcome the elements, which is a sign of his lordship. Obviously that raises questions about why he doesn't do it more often. So, you know, there's some early context there about the divinity of Christ. I think the most interesting parts are in the early church that there is a sense that, you know, as I often say, the big questions in the New Testament is if Jesus, Son of God, how come he was crucified? And given that the end of the world hasn't come. what does it mean to follow Christ in the interim period? You know, those are the two big questions of the New Testament. And it seems to me this is very much about that second question. It's not going very well, is it? Peter's got a lot of reasons to be nervous. And so it's all about your little faith, why did you doubt? You know, the, The doubt sermons usually preached about Thomas, which I think is a bit of a shame because I think Easter should be such a positive thing, you should keep the momentum going. But we do always have the Thomas reading Sunday after Easter and people always relate to it. But this is really, I think, the doubt, this isn't the kind of doubt that does the math and sort of said, what is the probability? of that being a sentient, cosmic being that brought the universe into existence. It's not that kind of doubt in terms of the kind of intellectual objective arguments for and against Christian faith. This is about trust. And I think trust is such an important theme on so many levels. And there are lots of reasons not to trust in relationships, faith, and so on. My own view is that trust is really what belief and faith are all about. It's the sort of cash value of faith. And this is about does the early church still trust in Jesus, even when he seems to be sort of far away across the sea? you know, that's obviously a theme that you can bring out into both church and personal faith in the present day. Yeah. So that's where I'd go with this.

speaker-0: That's really good. Right. I think Sam, that might be all we have time for this week. but it's been great to be with you all the way from Washington. thank you everyone for joining us. as always, you can follow, like, rate, subscribe, all the things on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, if you'd like to see our faces at the same time. you can find us in any place you get your podcasts and of course you can head to smitf.org forward slash preach where you can send in your questions. I know we've got some already for next week so I'm looking forward to putting them to Sam. But if anyone else has any do send them in and we'd be thrilled to try and wrestle with them together. Until next week though, thank you very much and goodbye.