Barbra Carlisle: Hello and welcome to Unlikely I'm Barbara Carlisle, Executive Coach and Trainer for the Construction, Housing and Engineering sectors. ⁓ And today I have a honour to have ⁓ Nike with me, Nike Folayan is the Chairperson of the Association for Black and Minority Ethnic Engineers, an organisation she set up. And she's the technical director at WSP. So welcome, Nike NIke: Thank you. Thank you for the privilege to be on this. Barbra Carlisle: it's a pleasure to have you, Nike Your technical director at WSP and is that a leadership role or an individual contributor role? NIke: I have ⁓ a number of roles. technical director, which means from a ⁓ technical perspective, I lead projects, ⁓ some quite significant projects, but also I am technical discipline leader, which means I manage all the competencies within my division. So across the UK and in India. I have a team of about 43 people across the world Barbra Carlisle: So you mentioned telecommunications and when I had a sneaky look on LinkedIn, you started in the telecommunication space within this sector. What attracted you to that sector? NIke: That's right. sort of decided that telecommunications was what was going to me have an understanding of televisions. So right from when I was really young, at the age of eight, as far as I can remember, I was always fascinated by how TVs work because I never understood how you could turn on a box and there were people inside. And initially I used to think that people lived inside the Barbra Carlisle: Alright. NIke: And so my dad would say, ⁓ it's an aerial connected to an aerial. you see this piece of metal. And so that I've been, I've been consistently curious about how signals work. And so I didn't know it was engineering actually. So I just thought, you know, this is just the thing. And that's what got me into telecommunications. And that's what I followed through. So I did a PhD in antenna design. technology. serious. So I'm one of those people like I heard in on the topic and I'm like I need to know everything about it and yeah so that's when I got into the transport tele communications sector so I've been in telecoms a long time. ⁓ Barbra Carlisle: Ha Wow, so that's definitely an advert for allowing your kids to watch TV, isn't it really? ⁓ NIke: Exactly, Sesame ⁓ Barbra Carlisle: I won't go down asking you which character you identified with on Sesame ⁓ NIke: Well, I'll tell even though you didn't ask me. I like Big Bird and I felt her friend, her imaginary friend, I always bad because she always missed ⁓ her imaginary friend. She could see it, as soon as left, everyone would come back and she's like, he was here and no one would believe her. Barbra Carlisle: ⁓ yeah. sharing that. I think mine was the cookie monster, So telecommunications from an early age ⁓ and a PhD, Was that a addition to ⁓ professional portfolio or was that done a while back? NIke: a while back over 20 years so I did a degree and I wanted to work in telecommunications but I found that in working I didn't really fulfill that desire to really understand what I needed to and so when the opportunity came to work and Barbra Carlisle: Mm. NIke: do a PhD I took it because I was doing research for an organisation so I was working and studying towards a Barbra Carlisle: ⁓ did you manage that boundary? NIke: Yeah. ⁓ it was for me, to be honest, my was different because I was doing the PhD to fulfill the company's understanding of a particular topic. So the PhD work was the work. Barbra Carlisle: Okay. Mmm. NIke: I had the luxury of this was something that the organisation wanted. Barbra Carlisle: yeah, that's like a bit of a golden nugget, isn't it? ⁓ really, really ⁓ to you. ⁓ one of the other things I'm curious about is ⁓ I'm coaching people, particularly women in the engineering sector, ⁓ a desire, NIke: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Barbra Carlisle: many of them ⁓ want to stay in the technical field, but seems to be them into management or something that isn't technical. have you to stay within that technical expertise which a lot of women in construction, find quite difficult to do NIke: So. . Yes. Barbra Carlisle: pressures. NIke: I really recognise that and I've had this conversation with people the journey trying to get to the top. Personally, I have been quite clear on the fact that I didn't want to be, whilst I wanted to be promoted, whilst I wanted to go up the food chain, I wanted to make sure that I was going for technical excellence. So even when I took on the job at WSP, for me and at the time when I joined the company there wasn't actually a team. There was myself, my boss at the time, there was one apprentice and two contractors. And so we basically built this team from scratch. I was very clear even at that time that my ⁓ I knew my strength was in the technical areas. I'd had an experience where I'd been put on a project which is with the Queen Elizabeth line previous to joining WSP and I was asked to do something I considered non-technical interface management. ⁓ And really almost destroyed me because I thought I have all these abilities and it's funny that even years after I remember meeting one of the architects on the project and he was like, I'm surprised I didn't realize you were. Barbra Carlisle: ⁓ yeah? NIke: technical person, I didn't realise you were an actual engineer, I just thought you were an admin person that we brought on to support the project. ⁓ And what tends to happen to a lot of women in these spaces where people think, okay, you're good at organising, so you go and organise it. And so I always say to people when those sort of things happen is that you have to be very clear. Barbra Carlisle: Mmm. NIke: of what you want to do and even whilst you're doing those roles you have to be looking out for other opportunities to go back into something a bit more technical which is what I did. Barbra Carlisle: Yeah, yeah, no, that's really good advice. It's been that being clear. even if you don't necessarily see yourself as the best expert in the room, because that's area that people sort of think, ⁓ maybe I should go into this X, Y, and Z area, but be clear and then also look out for future ⁓ So never just stay complacent is what hearing there. And in of now, you're ⁓ still managing do the technical side and managing people. What would you say were your biggest challenges at the moment? NIke: I think my biggest challenge is people's expectations of what it means to be a senior woman leader within an organisation. people expect you to be strong but weak, passionate but not showing your passion about your work. They want to be everything and all things at the same time. So that's my biggest challenge. They want you be ⁓ assertive but not assertive. ⁓ Barbra Carlisle: Mm. NIke: So it gets really, really confusing for lots of people. so I rely a lot on, on, on mentorship. I also rely on coaching as well to help me balance these kind of competing, things, understanding when to be passionate, understanding when not to be passionate, when your technical ability is challenged, because I get often. or whilst your voice is loud enough, even when you speak aloud, no one seems to hear until someone else, this male, says the same thing. And those moments being quite challenging because thinking, when do I get to belong to this industry? I've been in this industry for 20 years. When ⁓ do get to belong? ⁓ So are the things that even now, Whilst on the face of it, okay, you're in leadership, you're doing this, you've built a team, there's the evidence there that you can do this, on a day-to-day basis it is still a struggle and I think it's a struggle for a lot of women in sectors that are male-dominated, that you continue to feel that you need to show more, you need to be more, or sometimes actually you need to be less, so that everyone else feels comfortable. It's about making other people feel comfortable and Barbra Carlisle: Mm. NIke: sometimes it feels that people don't do the reverse where, I need to be comfortable as well. But I'm so busy trying to make sure everyone doesn't feel that I'm so technical that they feel that their technical abilities have been questioned. But at the same time, I've got to be technical enough to be able to lead. So yeah, all those conversations and questions I have all the time. Barbra Carlisle: Mm. So does that mean that you're ⁓ 20 plus years in and you still don't feel that you truly belong in this industry as a woman? NIke: I have many moments of feeling that I don't belong. Sadly, I have many moments. I like to be honest about this because I think that it only will help other people that identify this feeling of wanting to feel like this is my space. And I'm recognised for being in this space Barbra Carlisle: Yes. NIke: I still constantly have to prove myself like I just started in the industry and it's really tiring. Barbra Carlisle: Yeah, You mentioned that you've got mentors and coaches, but obviously ⁓ that's like person ⁓ to ⁓ to or to share your thoughts with or to hold that space for you. But how do you manage in the day to day, How do you nurture self care in the moment? NIke: Yes. What I do a lot of ⁓ in to ⁓ talking to I actually listen to a lot of conversations, people that I look up to that, What I really enjoy doing is listening to authentic ⁓ voices that talk about the challenges but about ways of maneuvering and dealing with those challenges. The other that I do a lot of is on a day-to-day basis is that I have a plan. I don't if I don't achieve the plan. I don't care. But I have a plan Barbra Carlisle: Okay. Right? NIke: say this a lot and say this to my team a lot, eyes on the prize. I always have a sticky note on my screen that says this, that, is what I'm going to do today. And so it doesn't matter what is happening in the day or, you know, the challenges that I get in the day. I always think, okay, well, okay, that's, that's, that's tough, but I have this list to do, so I need to focus and do it. The sticky note. focus notes has really helped me to look beyond what's actually happening in a particular situation. Barbra Carlisle: Yeah, that's really useful, isn't it? To not get carried away with what's coming up, but know what it is that you want to achieve that day, that week, eye on the prize. And ⁓ I guess after all these years, it's about being realistic what you can achieve in a day, because as a leader, you do get blindsided. NIke: That's That's right. That's right. That's right. And to be honest, I learned that one later on because at a point I put so much pressure on myself. I remember a point in my career, I was working on eight projects and I was working ridiculous hours. I'd leave the office sometimes at 11 o'clock. In fact, one day I left the office and I had to get to my sister's. I fell asleep on the train and Barbra Carlisle: ⁓ NIke: I ended up in Dagenham Dock, it was far away from where I was going. But yeah, know, but I learned very, that, you know, ⁓ you need to manage ⁓ your own of ⁓ You cannot be 100 all the time. We'd all love to say we're 100 % all the time, but we're not. There are times when you just need to understand that, yeah, these are the things that needs to be done. Barbra Carlisle: Yes. NIke: I've got through two, that's a win. Yeah, I'll get through another two or another three in another few days and that's okay, you know, because it's moving. The important thing is that it's moving. So yeah, so it's taken me a long time to get to that point because I, point in my career, I put so much pressure on myself it was making me ill. ⁓ Barbra Carlisle: Mm. Hmm, yeah, and making you end up in Dagenham Docks, which I'm sure is very nice, but not where you wanna be How would describe, your leadership NIke: Yeah. I'm quite assertive I what I want and I know what I don't ⁓ want I'm very feelings person I want everyone to feel like they are so my leadership style is such that when we had the office space before COVID, people would say we're the loudest team in the office because we'd go all to lunch together, we'd come back to the office. I spend time chatting with doing one-to-ones with various people in the team. So not just finding out about all their technical skills and abilities, but find out about what makes them tick. I have a team of people that have been in the industry. as in telecoms, as you can imagine, quite a long time and they working as part of my team. And so what I try to do is I try to give them opportunities to share their experiences because sometimes they're just in the team, not feeling like they're valued by anybody. They're feeling, okay, there's a new generation of people that kind of very different approach. ⁓ I try to bring them along the journey. So. think my leadership style is one that is quite clear on what we want to achieve but at the same time understanding that everyone is at different places. For me it's not about the best team, it's about how the people in the team are feeling about the performance. You know, you can perform but if the people in the team are feeling that they're exhausted because they're, just carrying too much, it's very difficult. So for me it's about... making sure that everyone feels okay, the goal is clear, but there's flexibility around what I can achieve in that space. Barbra Carlisle: Yeah, so you're allowing people that autonomy to do it in the way that suits them. Just curious to ask a little bit about NIke: Yeah. Yeah. Barbra Carlisle: have you experienced that boundary blur where people think you're one thing, as in more friendly? than manager or leader and how have you navigated that if that has been an issue for you. NIke: I'm not speaking on behalf of all women, but I think that's an issue for a lot of ⁓ women in leadership setting boundaries of the that you're trying to be nurturing comes into play. So I had moments where I have had to speak team members in particular and say, whilst we can have a conversation about this lunch or whatever. when we're in this particular space, I do expect you to meet these particular targets. I do expect you to do this. I do expect you to that. ⁓ I remind people that it's a place of trust. I can have these friendly conversations with you and nurturing conversations because I am building trust and that trust is not just one sided, it's reciprocal. Barbra Carlisle: do you get nervous before you have those difficult conversations or is it something that you actively look forward to because it brings clarity? NIke: I get very nervous because I don't know what the person's reaction is going to be. There have been good reactions, there have been not so good reactions. So some people have taken on board. I remember having a conversation with a member of my team that I thought she particularly a lot of potential, but I felt that she had become ⁓ not as Barbra Carlisle: Mm. NIke: And I talked about my disappointment actually and that really got to her and she thought ⁓ my goodness I don't want to ever disappoint you so I'm going to do everything in my to make sure that we achieve the things that we need to achieve. On the flip side I've had conversations with people that have thought ⁓ right okay you know kind of taking the way that was negative ⁓ and ⁓ For those sort of people and for those sort of situations, what I tend to do is I kind of give it a bit of gap I think there needs to be an understanding that I'm not going to back down because you've reacted in a way isn't progressive towards what we're trying to achieve. And I wasn't like before. Before I'd be so worried and, ⁓ you know, this is a problem because again, my natural instinct is to make sure everyone's okay. that's taking a lot of work to understand that, ⁓ want everyone okay, but often it's not up to you that everyone's okay. You've just got to create the space for people to be and maybe over time they will get to the where they realise we're all working in the same direction. Barbra Carlisle: Yeah, and what I'm hearing there is that clear articulation around expectations, that safe trust, but it has got to be reciprocal and you are professionals with jobs to do and that holding that space for yourself and for them NIke: Thank you. That's right. That's right. Barbra Carlisle: I'll that, Would you mind sharing a reflection on when times have been tough you on that journey and how you've ⁓ developed your resilience? NIke: you There's been number of occasions. Firstly, when, as said, I was working on 8 projects and I remember one particular evening I was in the office, trying to leave the office and I bent down to get my shoes on and I couldn't get up because I think it a spasm of sorts And my colleague called 911, the ambulance came and then the first question they asked me is, Are you on any drugs? you taking any drugs? that was a moment for me to say, okay, you're working too hard. If you think that you're on something now. And that was a point of reflection because I'm a 'Yes' person. So, ⁓ can you do this? Yes. Can you do that? Yes. yeah, I'll take this on. And that was a point. That was one point that I decided that it was okay to say it's too much. I've got enough to do. Barbra Carlisle: Yep. Sure. NIke: I always felt if I said no I might miss an opportunity fear of missing out and so that was number one moment. I thought okay ⁓ now I need to be quite that when people ask me can you do a million things I need to check I can comfortably do them and I need take an approach of okay I've got eight things to do. I can't take any more until I shift one That approach has really helped me and that was ⁓ support from a coach actually said, you you need to do that to be to have better capacity. was when I had my he's six now and leaving and coming back. He was born around COVID. And coming back and thinking, do I really fit in? a feeling that everything's changed. What is the next stage of my career? Is there a next stage? Is this it for me? And working through that and working through that with a number of my mentors, having meetings with them and say, Barbra Carlisle: Yeah. NIke: I feel stuck. don't know what to do. What's the next step? Or maybe I should go another industry. And those conversations really helped me to slow down. Because bear in mind, I'd been working on my career and then I had ⁓ my son in my ⁓ 40s. that moment of can't continue. at the pace I was going because, this is the most important person in my life, gave me another significant point to reflect on what do I actually want to achieve in this industry? How do I want to carry on? ⁓ What's the legacy piece for my as well that I want to see? And what is the priority? And that was a tough as well I've always been very... in the next five years I'm going to be doing this in the next five years I'm going to you know and changing from that to what is important to you ⁓ what do you to ⁓ achieve ultimately ⁓ Barbra Carlisle: Yeah, yeah. And It's interesting, isn't it? You mentioned the word slow down, but I'm sure you haven't slowed down. ⁓ I'm sure your is still quite fast when you're in but it's about the priorities, isn't it? With the first example, it a moment of trauma. Your body was physically, that's it, I'm done. Put your shoes on, we're done. NIke: Yeah. Yeah. right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Barbra Carlisle: But then having a baby, it's a different type of perspective, isn't it? And the two together say, right, okay, so what is my purpose? How can I enjoy both work and motherhood and time for myself, presumably at some point in your plan. Yeah, I know, but so thank you for sharing that. just, I was curious as you were talking about the first incident. NIke: That's right. Barbra Carlisle: Where you were, even though you were a yes person, you were working on eight projects, where you were that your was taking, the workload was taking a toll on your body, or was it just the spasm seemed to come out of nowhere? Right. NIke: came out of nowhere. I thought I was doing absolutely fine. I share this, people are quite surprised because, yeah, I thought I was fine. I thought, yeah, it's just, you this is life. You just work and work and work and work and it's okay. And my body wasn't very happy with it because ⁓ wasn't very happy at all. And it thought, no, no, I don't think you're guessing it. I think we need to... Barbra Carlisle: It doesn't sound like it was very happy. It's happy at all. ⁓ NIke: We need to show you how bad it is. Cause I wasn't sleeping as well. was, I was working and I was not sleeping because obviously the mind, takes a bit of time to relax. So, straight away get up in the morning, straight away in the office, doing this, doing that. And alongside all of that, was doing the AFBE as well. I think the body just said, ⁓ at point I had to listen and I was grateful that it wasn't worse because it could have been something more significant and ⁓ yeah. Barbra Carlisle: Yes. How do you check in on yourself in terms of your ⁓ physical and emotional state now? Do you think about it or are you not thinking about it? NIke: I do. I do consistently have check-ins with myself. I do consistently check What have I actually done this week that is for me, not for anybody else, for me. And just making sure that I'm not. Barbra Carlisle: Hmm. NIke: guessing because half the time it was getting to the point of ⁓ there's a deadline and you know you always go into panic mode all the time. I'm checking that I wasn't going into ⁓ any panic about anything and I keep saying to myself no one's going to die. I know this sounds like no one's going to die so that's perspective. ⁓ Barbra Carlisle: Yes, yeah, sometimes I end up sounding like my mom, know, trying to get into perspective, but it works and it is true. NIke: Yes, yes, ⁓ Barbra Carlisle: I want to ask you about ⁓ AFBE. Do you want to remind people what it stands for? And if you just give us a little bit of background as to ⁓ how it came about. NIke: Okay, so AFBE is the Association for Black and Minority Ethnic Engineers UK. It's an organisation that was founded in 2007 by myself and my brother, Ollie Folayan and at a time, I always say at a time when our industry was even less diverse and less inclusive than it is today. Ollie had joined the industry four years before me and I thought everything was fine and I joined the industry and then realized within the first week that I didn't quite fit as much as I thought I would. So I walk into the building and I find that I'm the only female engineer on the floor of about 150 and I'm the only black female. And that turned into a situation where I had constant reasons to wonder whether some of the comments and things that were said and things that were done were either because of my gender or what the issues were. I remember feeling very down about what was going on. I was very much looking forward to joining this industry and why is all this happening? And I remember I used to go to ladies and have a bit of a cry and just wipe my tears, come back to desk and act like it was all okay. And talking to Olli and finding out that he'd been having really experiences where he was working as well. Some of the comments that were said to him were even harsher than some of the things that I'd experienced. thinking that, there might be someone looked like us in more senior position that we could talk to. And then doing a scan and realizing there weren't that many people colour in senior positions that we could talk to. And then reaching out to our friends and saying, what's actually on in the organisations you're working with? But more importantly, at the time we lived in the Croydon area. There was a lot of gang crime in London. Barbra Carlisle: Mm. NIke: and so all sorts of things in the news. So we knew about young people of colour were being stabbed And that stereotype was scary because the prime minister of the day said that culture was responsible for crime. So it seemed like everything was happening all at the same time. The Royal Academy of Engineering was calling for more role models from diverse backgrounds. And so we then wrote to our friends and we had our first meeting actually in Ollie's flat. back in 2007 and we said one, we wanted to showcase that are a community of people that could make a difference, a positive difference, so through schools outreach and so on. But also wanted to be there to support each other in the challenges. So turning the challenges were having and trying to put something into someone else was our approach to helping ⁓ the situations were in. And so whilst these situations in our workplaces didn't change for long time and we still had those challenges, there was always an outlet to say, look, I'm supporting someone else. I've got to keep on going. Otherwise, what is the point? So yeah, that's how AFBE was created Barbra Carlisle: Yeah. So what's kept it alive? NIke: yes. I think, to be honest, I think it's it's it the passion that has kept us alive and the and the difference that we kept seeing that we're making. So we have around over the years, you know, being around 19 years now, over the years, we've had about 30,000 beneficiaries. We've seen people that we met at secondary school working in the industry now, senior engineers in the industry. so we've had quite a few people come through our programs and now working in the industry. And those people wanted to give back as well. Those people seeing the need, those people understanding the importance of role models and the support that they got, especially when you talk about that transition journey into the world of work. So there's stats that the Royal Academy provided this shows that 33 % of undergraduate engineering students are from black and minority ethnic groups. However, in the industry at the moment there's only 12.4 % of us at the time actually when we started this I think only about four to six percent. So we know that there is a challenge there's an over representation of black and minority young people Barbra Carlisle: Yeah. NIke: in ⁓ studying to get into the profession but when you look at the profession you out that ⁓ the has very few so that there is a challenge in that transitioning from studying to work and so we continue to bridge those gaps and it's been a rewarding thing to do just be part of someone's story be part of someone's journey and those people getting inspired to do what you've giving back to other people. So that's how we've kind of sustained it. And obviously, we've also had the support of many organisations seeking to change things in the space as well to diversify the industry. yeah, that's, it's a lot of hard work, but it's just so rewarding when you see a young person that you met at, know, 16 in the industry thriving. Barbra Carlisle: Yeah. Can I just check, is AFBE a membership organisation or do larger T1 ⁓ sponsor the setups? NIke: Yes! Yes, so we have a ⁓ membership organisation, so we have a student membership, have a professional and then we have corporate members as well. Every other year so we had the gala the AFBE gala which had around 600 people and then we have AFBE live conference 2026 which is October in Birmingham for the very first time because we're always in london ⁓ and we have Barbra Carlisle: Wow. NIke: being able to create a system whereby if you are really wanting to make a change, either as a company or as an individual, or even if you're trying to get into the space, we've created avenues for people to reach in and be supported. Barbra Carlisle: That sounds absolutely amazing. And I think, you know, I'm going to ask you, what's the highs of working with your brother? And is he still involved? Is Oliver still involved? NIke: yes. ⁓ yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. We We're quite similar. sometimes we almost say the same. So we are very, we are very similar. The highs of working with Olli is that He's specifically very knowledgeable on a lot of, I mean, on an incredible range of things because he reads a lot, and he's someone that is on a constant journey of learning. And You have no that this person is you and wants the best for this organisation. Barbra Carlisle: Yep. How might people get in touch with you? NIke: I'm still on LinkedIn so people can get in contact. I always love to hear from people, especially where they are and if any of the things I've said resonate. ⁓ But also I'm available via the AFBE website, Barbra Carlisle: Thank you ever so much for taking time ⁓ talking to me today. Really appreciate it. Thank you, thank you. NIke: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I really enjoyed this. Thank you very much.