Barbra Carlisle: Welcome to The Unlikely Executive, the podcast for leaders who never expected to end up in charge, but are determined to do it well. I'm Barbra Carlisle, Executive Coach to founders, CEOs, and purpose-led leaders who want clarity, confidence, and a team that thrives. Hello and welcome to the Unlikely Executive. I'm Barbra Carlisle, Executive Coaching Mentor and this week I have the privilege of talking to Learie Gonsalves who is the Director of Blackbird Property Surveyors. Welcome Learie.

Learie Gonsalves: Thank you very much, Barbra. Thanks for asking me on.

Barbra Carlisle: Each episode, I dive into real conversations with leaders who've navigated pressures, and big decisions so that you can lead with courage, honesty, and impact. Let's get into it. No, it's an absolute pleasure. And I'm looking down because Blackbird Property Surveyors is a new baby for you. You were previously known as something else, which I knew you as. ⁓ want to explain ⁓ the audience in a couple of sentences what your organisation delivers the world?

Learie Gonsalves: Great stuff. So the organisation was called One Building Solution, which is a firm of chartered building surveyors. Had been in existence for the last 10 years. So we kind of took the opportunity on the 10 year celebration is to relaunch the business, Blackbird Property Surveyors. It's... I'll say sort of redefining of the journey that we've been on and And ⁓ there's services that we started right at the beginning of One Building Solution. But now we've kind of tailored that provided a more defined sort of service in of what we do.

Barbra Carlisle: Okay, and people would say that rebranding is risky. So what made you actually go, it's the right time for us ⁓ rebrand?

Learie Gonsalves: ⁓ is, but I think I'm not in the fortunate position whereby sort of the brand dare I say, headlines the delivery. Yeah. Well, yeah, no, not yet. I don't know if I welcome...

Barbra Carlisle: Yeah, you're not global yet. You're not global yet, yeah?

Learie Gonsalves: I'm kind of running out of time to be honest, because I'm 59. So I don't know. I'm not sure if I'll get there. Well, I think in essence what I'm trying to say is that we're not a Nike, we're not a Shell or anything, a large company. So, predominantly the business that people buy from me or the business that they're doing is Learie Gonsalves themselves. I am the business, so to speak. So it wasn't really that risky.

Barbra Carlisle: Yeah.

Learie Gonsalves: it wasn't really a ⁓ massive risk. And to be honest, what we wanted to do is get a bit closer to the property and the surveying service, hence the Blackbird Property Surveyors.

Barbra Carlisle: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's funny isn't it, can think the name at the time is the right name and then as we evolve as a business we say actually we are property surveyors. what we're known as, that's what people come to Learie for. Why not ⁓ on that?

Learie Gonsalves: Yes. Yeah. it's essentially people are buying from person that is selling that business.

Barbra Carlisle: Yeah, so it's about that classic more like and trust isn't it And so you've fessed up at your 59, which you know, not everybody would do that. So what do you see going forward as your ambition for your organisation? And then we can talk a little bit about unpacking who you are as an individual.

Learie Gonsalves: It's that balance, I think. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. In terms of the of the organisation, it is that, you know, quite cheekily that I said it's sort of running out of time to become global, but in fact, really, I think the business was really centered around sort of controlling my own sort of destiny, really, and having that balance between we always talk about that work-life balance and having control over your own destiny. So in terms of sort of going forward, it's just to continue that balance and having control over your life and what you can and what you can't do.

Barbra Carlisle: Yeah. Yeah. mean, so many entrepreneurs and founders like yourself say something like that, it's about balance, but an entrepreneur myself and I've set my own business, I know that sometimes there ain't a balance, It is, and my fault there's no balance, it's only down to me, I can manage my time, but somehow I don't. ⁓ So have you managed to keep that balance, or keep that balance effectively?

Learie Gonsalves: No. Well, again, mean, I think one of the things I sort of learned from one of my previous employees it was the work life balance was, as you can imagine, was pretty, pretty heavy there, quite full on in terms of working in that commercial world. And one of the things I went to, I went to a workshop, ⁓ talked about work life and me time.

Barbra Carlisle: Yeah.

Learie Gonsalves: ⁓ kind of stuck with me. So, ⁓ that's something I've been able to do now and very conscious about doing. Don't get me wrong, at the start of doing your own business, ⁓ is, it's very, very, very, very difficult to that. But I've slowly, ⁓ particularly with the change of the last 10 years, because we always hear about businesses flopping in the first year, the first seven years and whatever.

Barbra Carlisle: Yes, absolutely.

Learie Gonsalves: But I think I'm confident enough now to be able to address the, particularly the me time around that. And don't get me wrong, there's still days where possibly, you you kind of pay for it. You know, you work at two o'clock in the morning, but then, you know, the next day, that's me time. I might not get up until whatever time. So it is difficult.

Barbra Carlisle: Bye. Yeah. Yeah.

Learie Gonsalves: and I know it may be easier said than done, but I think there's more that become matters more in terms of your health your state of mind. So you really, really do have to push for that.

Barbra Carlisle: Yeah, you do have to work for it, don't you? And I know that the other director is your wife. Is it like working with your partner? Because I could not work with mine. Well, respect both of Sorry, Alan, if you're listening.

Learie Gonsalves: Well, you see, it is quite strange and dare I say, we always, again, we sort of laugh, we always watch Dragon's Den and we see, it drives my wife absolutely up the wall when they stand there and talk about, they don't, know the numbers, you know, they don't know their profits, they don't know the difference between net and gross.

Barbra Carlisle: ⁓ no.

Learie Gonsalves: I'm pretty much like that, to be honest. So in terms of being creative, possibly getting business or delivering, I'm pretty good with that. So there's a real balance. My wife's really good at sort of the financial side and the commercial side of the business. So we sort of pretty well together. as I said, a lot of the time I spend is out on the road. So we don't have to share ⁓ office this together all the time.

Barbra Carlisle: All Right.

Learie Gonsalves: But I mean, my wife is, she works in HR anyway, So when I say she's a director of the business, she's not fully, fully involved in that. she sort of directs the financial parts of the business.

Barbra Carlisle: Yeah, so it's not that intensity of a business with somebody in the middle. Yep.

Learie Gonsalves: No, no, not at all. I think, yeah, she respects what I do in terms of what, in terms of professional and technical side. she adds a lot of value in terms of the commercial side of the business.

Barbra Carlisle: I'm sure people are really dying to know, Learie, you know, what led to you being the director of Blackbird Property Surveyors? What's been career journey?

Learie Gonsalves: I left school 1984 with no qualifications. And back then it was the CSE, wasn't it? Before it was the GCSE. Yeah. So but

Barbra Carlisle: ⁓ yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Learie Gonsalves: I had a grade one CSE in art and yeah, was pretty good at drawing. And I think maybe I spent too much good time at school, didn't really apply myself. And I wasn't really, dare I say, one of the brightest tools in the box. So left school and I thought, God, I've only got one CSE, what am I gonna do now? So I sort of went back. to college, to my own levels, English, maths and sociology. Still pretty difficult get a job. And didn't have a clue what I could do at the time. All I I could draw. And there wasn't ⁓ anything around me around that to inspire me to ⁓ follow a career. didn't know anything about graphic design, didn't know anything about architecture, which possibly have been a particular avenue. So after few going back to college, working, doing shift work, 6 2am, 2 - in factories, working on scaffolding yards, working in the market, working in factories and whatever, I seen an come up, which was... seen by my sister and brother-in-law to work for a housing association. They were taken on trainees and there was a sort of a community scheme and they were taken on three trainees for two years. I saw opportunity, it was a service supervisor. I thought, well, this sounds great, working for the housing service supervisor. Didn't know what it was, what it entailed. ⁓ But of fast forward, really what it was is,

Barbra Carlisle: All right. Yeah.

Learie Gonsalves: organizing and supervising caretakers around the estates. wasn't a to do to be honest with it. most of the time then, it was like fetching bacon butties on a Friday from ⁓ the shop. ⁓ photocopying, so it's a real office junior sort of job. What they had was an in-house architect department, which he was responsible for the refurbishment of properties that the Housing Association acquired.

Barbra Carlisle: Yeah.

Learie Gonsalves: He was the architect and had a technician. ⁓ He saw me photocopying and thought, ⁓ guy, what's going on here? So the Keith Horton, took me under his wing. used to go out holding a tape, measuring it, taking photographs, cetera. And there's one day we were just talking my background. I said, I did art at school. And he said, did you do any technical drawing? I said, yes, I did that as well. And he asked me if I fancy drawing up the existing plan of a terrace property So I surprised myself to be honest. Yeah, I drew up the existing plan. And so my responsibility then sort of changed to drawing up existing plans where would do the proposed drawings. That slowly went on and then day he asked me if I would like to draw up the proposed plan So I drew the plan and I did it quite and he said, kind of wasted so he nabbed me from the service supervisor and I worked under him. He sent me to, well the organisation sent me to where I did my ONC building Studies and my HNC but terms ⁓ of of drawing it was all learnt within the office and then ⁓ an architectural technician, assistant architectural technician. Coming close towards the end of the two years, I became quite an integral part of the staff in terms of that. So we came very close towards the end the two ⁓ Keith kind of battled for me to have him me on. We had so much work on. He said, you know, we need to extend this, or give him a full-time job. ⁓ They couldn't afford to do that. So they put me on another year, at which time...

Barbra Carlisle: Yeah.

Learie Gonsalves: I was sort of suitably sort qualified. I saw an opportunity working for Leicester City Council in what was then the Architects Department. Job came up as an ⁓ technician. I applied for the job just Successfully got the job there. Worked my way to become a senior architectural got to a bit of a crossroads in terms where my career still lied, should I continue work for the local authority. had a thought about doing the architect's degree and becoming an architect, but it seemed a very long time in terms of the course. I think it about seven years or something like that. ⁓ And wasn't too sure, of doubted myself if I had... the real architectural flair or the know-how or the, dare I say, the brains to do that. Went through the transition that's still at Leicester. And so from drawing board to CAD, so I was really... worked really well on CAD, took qualification, but I thought of, got sort of ⁓ an appetite for learning and became very ⁓ curious in of the building. construction and defects and whatever. of the guys actually in the office who was an architect, he did a building surveying degree. So I asked him it, And I became very interested in surveying then in terms again, buildings work, why they fall down, why they crack, why So I became very ⁓ inquisitive. this, I'm very curious. So I asked my boss at the time, I said, oh, yeah, I think I'd like to do the building surveying degree. And he said to me at the time, well, you don't need building surveying to do your job. hmm, it kind of raised my eyebrows a bit on that. And I'm the kind of person, I think, particularly more in my later years, particularly after leaving school, is that when someone says to me, you can't or won't or puts walls up, then I find a way to, if I can't get over it, I'll go around it or go through it.

Barbra Carlisle: Yeah, you shouldn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and look at you now, yeah, it was good that you didn't listen to him. So fast forward and now you've been working for long time, you've got your own business, but there must have been challenges other than one person saying, you know, don't need that for your job,

Learie Gonsalves: No, I didn't. Done that, yeah! In terms of getting to where I am, I never would have thought that because, I think I grew up in there, which pretty much stands out at the moment, is that you only can be what you can see.

Barbra Carlisle: Absolutely.

Learie Gonsalves: So I came from a community or area that didn't know anything about building surveying or architecture. So when you're in a sort of an arena where they don't see many people like yourself, either from a working class background or being black, dare I say, when you're around, there's challenges around that because, you know, I believe a lot of the time it's becoming a lot different now, but people that work in those environments. there's a bit of an acceptance around the people that they're working with or for. So that's a challenge in its own right. So to show that you are good enough and you do belong within that particular arena or industry. So that in itself is a challenge. And the way I got over that is for me is trying to be the best I could be and forever self and pushing myself. to gain the qualifications of the experience. So I think always gonna, I don't look at them anymore as obstacles or ⁓ they're ⁓ and that you just gotta accept really.

Barbra Carlisle: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then embrace and deal within the way that suits you. And can I ask you, so you were, went into employment after school and then you chose to set up your own business 10 years ago. What were the push and pull factors there for you?

Learie Gonsalves: There was a few actually, you there was no single factor. I think when once I passed my I went on to do the APC. And I say the in terms of sitting your APC, it was much talked about, what part of it was setting up your own business. And it, you know,

Barbra Carlisle: Right.

Learie Gonsalves: They asked questions in your final interview about talking about setting up your business, talking the governance. And it was almost a, that gave me the inkling really that it's something that I could do and maybe should do ⁓ later on the future. And again, it talks about what I talked about control of your own destiny and your own sort of work life balance. ⁓ I was. working through some of these ⁓ ⁓ very little time, working away from my ⁓ wife and etc. So, and well in terms of opportunities, progression and I think some of the industry again is that the only way to get on really is sometimes is that whether you look like someone in that organisation have the same business culture. A number of the businesses I worked to, and I think back at that time, again, there was a big drinking culture around the businesses. or if were into, dare I say, I don't know, for example, rugby or ⁓ if you in that mold of the business.

Barbra Carlisle: Yes.

Learie Gonsalves: enabled you to progress. I don't believe I was able to progress in the way that I wanted to. again, said to me, ⁓ another colleague said to me, well, Learie ⁓ you're handy with a shovel. ⁓ And yeah, you know, so I kind of got it. So, know, you Gabe, thought it's pretty harsh. What are you talking about? And I thought,

Barbra Carlisle: Too good at what we do, yeah.

Learie Gonsalves: We had a long conversation around this and he it maybe to the army. if you've got somebody on the front line who's a really good paratrooper, he's never going to become a sergeant. So going to always keep your best people in those positions. So ⁓ I was, as again, for me, I was very technical in terms of what I was able to do. I delivered a amount of fees for my position within the job. And I wasn't really a salesperson. That wasn't what I was really about. was maybe a lot to do with the progression of the number of people there. So thought, well, I'll leave and coupled together with the fact that I'm having control of my own destiny, I can do stuff for myself, that work-life balance, those, I'm not working that ⁓ hard to enable of the partners to

Barbra Carlisle: Right.

Learie Gonsalves: buy another holiday ⁓ in or something like that. I've got more control of that. So that was the real driver really.

Barbra Carlisle: Wow. Yeah, brilliant. if somebody is like you and wanting to ⁓ take more control, what one piece advice you give them?

Learie Gonsalves: think learn as much as you can and be very curious, ask lots of questions ⁓ yeah, just believe in yourself. I think that's the biggest thing is believe in yourself. I think, and take advice wisely because I listen to everything and everybody but I take bits from it. Some of it goes over my head and a lot of the time is to, yeah, just... Take a bit of a pinch of salt, what some people say, and just information gather and take the good bits and in yourself.

Barbra Carlisle: Yeah, that's a great piece of advice, thank you. And the final question I want to ask you is what do you do in your spare time when you're not founder, director of Blackbird Property Surveyors?

Learie Gonsalves: ⁓ that's a great one I've recently I suffered from sort health in terms of mental illness and also I was diagnosed with prostate cancer about four years ago. I had a radical projectory about four years ago and I thought I've been given another chance so to speak. So in terms of my health I have to say I'm getting older. I've started running. I'm starting running now and I've started playing pickleball. Yeah, so it's...

Barbra Carlisle: Right. yeah, yeah, yeah.

Learie Gonsalves: I know, as you probably know, it's a bit of a mixture between badminton and maybe slow tennis. I don't think I'm maybe bit too old and not fit as I used to be to get around a tennis court anymore. So, but yeah, so that's what I do now. I go out for long runs, really great for the mind. It gets you away, keeps you fit. And those are the two things I do in my spare time now.

Barbra Carlisle: It works. Wow, I'm sorry to hear about your prostate cancer it's great that you identified hopefully dealt with it but thank you for sharing. ⁓

Learie Gonsalves: No, no, I've been given another chance. I thought, yeah, feel totally elated by the fact that I've come through that. And it's one of the things I do give back to in doing trying to raise money and awareness for prostate cancer. And again, I do that through my running So there's two things there. It you the awareness and also raising much needed funds for investigations around that and keeps me fit.

Barbra Carlisle: Yeah, fantastic. Yeah, no? Wins all around? you for spending some time with me today, Learie I've really enjoyed hearing your stories. If people wanted to get in touch with you, how might they do that? What's the best way?

Learie Gonsalves: Well, the best and easiest way I'm all over. I'm trying again, trying to keep up with modern technology and sort of branding. You can find me on LinkedIn and most of the social medias really.

Barbra Carlisle: Okay, brilliant. Well, thank you for your time and have a great rest of the week.

Learie Gonsalves: Great stuff. Thanks a for inviting me and all the best with the rest of podcast.

Barbra Carlisle: No worries.