Dave C: On today's episode, we'll talk about shooting on outdated film stock, learning not to overshoot, Hollywood, Peaky Blinders, and of course, having your mom be your first gaffer. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website, theop.io, is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done. The musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Like it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Victor 30 Echo Tech Team. Hey Mark. Hey Mark. Camera set. Back room. In action. Hello and welcome back to the OP Podcast, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I am Dave Komitis, your host, and coming to you from my basement over the internet today with a really, really talented cinematographer, a good friend, someone who I've worked with in the past and Hope to be working with a lot more in the future because our our our schedules never collide, but hopefully that will change soon. Mr. Simon Dennis. Simon is a cinematographer from across the pond, as they say, but now resides and works in Los Angeles. And a couple of his credits, but not all by any means. Dr. Odyssey, fellow travelers, Candy, American crime story, ratchet Hollywood. Peaky Blinders, just to name a few. The 2013 winner for best cinematography at the Fargo Film Festival for the film Dimensions, and 2015 nominee for a BAFTA award for Peaky Blinders. as I said, really talented cinematographer and just a great human being. Simon, it's it's been a long time that I've been chasing you, and I'm finally happy to get you on the podcast. Welcome. Thanks. Thanks, buddy. It's always a pleasure talking to you. Always a pleasure. So so Share what's what's your story? How'd you get into the film industry? How'd you get started? Can I can I also just jump in and just say a big thank you to you? I did before I start talking, because I I just w I just in my mind to tell you. About three and a half years ago, we got a coffee and caught up and you said to me, I'm thinking about writing a book about the craft of operating. And I was like, Cool, you know? I don't know if you remember this. I remember having coffee. I don't I you're saying well maybe maybe I that was an idea or okay. Anyway, go ahead. Anyway, you said to me, I'm gonna start writing this. Maybe I can, you know, throw you some stuff and you can tell me what you think. And then I was like, sure. And then what was it, a year later, you pop up with this amazing website, which I think the whole industry has been waiting for, in my opinion. So I just wanna say a big thank you to you before I start warbling about my my life. No, thank you. I you know what? I think now that I think back on it. I think originally I think originally I was thinking of well, originally I started sitting down and writing these like essays or I don't know what you call about just stuff that I was thinking about about the film industry because I was I was mentoring people and I was starting to go, hey, but this is a thing, this thing. And then I think I think I did think I might make it into a book, which was when I talked to you to get your thoughts on it and see if I could turn it by you. And then and then ended up sort of somehow becoming the podcast on the website. But the musings on the the website is basically what that book would have been, as I put those all into into those things. So so it it well wow. my gosh. Well thank you very much. That coming from you that means a lot. And Yeah. Yeah. you deserve it, man. You know, you're one of the good guys and you're you're so so such a supporter of everybody. And I've known you what, seven years now, and you've just been such a great guy. Anyway. I appreciate that. Listen, that's all the time we have for you today, but thanks for being on the podcast. I don't think we have to say anything else. It's only getting worse from here, Simon. yeah, that's very that's very kind of you. So so yeah, what's your story, man? How'd you how'd you get into Peaky Blinders and all that stuff? well, as a kid I was very introverted and the only thing I was really remotely good at at school was art and I did a little bit of photography. And I remember a career advisor saying to me, You're seventeen now, you gotta go out and get a job. And and the only job that they could kind of link to what I was good at was graphic design. So I naturally was like, Okay, that sounds okay. Long story short, I w I ended up going to a art school in Torquay in Devon, which is actually the home where it's where Roger Deakin was was born. I knew many, many years later. Nicely done. Nicely done. And essentially I was kind of okay on the course going towards graph design, but I my heart wasn't into it. And I did sort of have a love for movies and filmmaking and and all that. And weirdly, right near the end of the course, they asked us to adapt a little passage from a book. It was totally random and it didn't make sense the course, but still this was actually the passage that. got me on my journey as it were. So it was just a passage from a book and you had to adapt it how you wanted to in any visual style. And so I did this little kind of artsy short and and then I basically stole their equipment over a weekend to make a short film my family. With my with I had no clue what I was doing. I wrote a little short story. It was a ghost story it was about one character trapped in his house and my brother was the lead. And remember my sisters were kind of helping out. I guess they were production assistants, I guess. that's great. And the weirdest part of the shoot was my my mum was the gaffer, essentially. Like she was the first gaffer I ever worked with. Because I had this little box of red headlights and you know, she w there was like these little light gimmicks I was doing where the lights were going on and off. So she was doing that. I mean, looking back it was it was so naive but so kind of cool. No, but like you you g it's just like for the pure love of it. I love how like let's put on a show it sounds like, you know, kind of thing and and get everybody involved. Or this was film or what? No, this was video. I I mean I did dabble a little bit in Super A. I mean film came obviously much later for me. but yeah, it was back in the days of the Sony Hi A cameras and essentially I sort of downtooled in life, I just dropped everything. I had a year To kind of I had a year because I was hoping to go on to a a film course, but I didn't get in. So I was like at a down year. So I effectively made a bunch of short films with all my friends at at in my hometown. that's great. One of my friends was actually at that point a carpenter. So he built me a little track and dolly and an actual mini jib for a little video camera. So so you could say I'm a small town boy, I coup I was very introverted but sort of very artistic and I kind of yeah, I just made a few short films and then finally I got into film school in Napier, which is in Edinburgh, which is like a B A on's B A honours degree course. So wait, is that is that like college here or is that graduate school? Like what is that? It's graduate school. it's it's a it's an honorary course, you know, a bachelor of arts. So it's but it's after col it's after college? Like you'd already gone to college and then you went there? Okay, gotcha. Yeah. Cool. So yeah, I said art I did art art college and then film school. And this was actually quite a lot. It was like a back then it was like a three year course. And and at that point I still had no concept or focus of any part of production. I didn't I think everyone just wanted to be a filmmaker. I mean that's all I knew, but you know, make filmmaker. And then of course during the course you're taught To basically respect every department. So you do a bit of sound recording, you do a bit of script writing, you do a bit of editing on the Steam Beck, by the way, back in the day of the Steam Bex. And and lo and behold, one of the parts was naturally cinematography. And I never even heard of that occ, you know, that role. And I sort of passed with higher scores in that than the other things. And so I thought, well, okay, I kinda like this. And also I kinda figured that I'm not really a director. I'm pretty introverted. I'm not gonna kinda be able to have the balls to do that. So I kinda like the idea of being and I always have since loved the idea of being completely a force of creativity, but behind the curtain, behind the camera. So so yeah, so that's that's how I kinda got into like the knowledge and w focus of being a cinematographer. And then of course we graduated and that was a big moment because we we w I remember we we went to the park and got really drunk. There was like four or five of us. And and we we we sort of banded together because I wanted to be a cinematographer. My friend Martin wanted to be a director, my friend Drew wanted to be a producer and and then and an ed editor of my friend Alan. So we were effectively a little a filmmaking team, but we didn't know what the hell to do. And this is the another weird part of life how it gives you kind of luck and gestures and you know little angels here and there. Is my friend Martin went to the corner store to get some more alcohol and he came back and he's my god, I just jump just bumped into a friend that works for Virgin Records and they need to do a music video like literally next week, and they've got nobody to make it. So I told them that we're gonna make this music video. Simon, the way Simon, you're gonna shoot this and you know, Drew, you're gonna produce it. And and one small point I messed up lift out my story actually is during the course. The film course, I kind of spent my entire grant. I don't know if they call it a grant in America, but your educational grant, you get you get given money. I bought an old secondhand REST camera from a BBC cameraman. wow. And and that's when you asked about earlier about video and film. This is where I started to really know about film. And we used to like beg, borrow film stock. We used to kind of contact the TV companies and they'd have boxes and boxes of stock that's not been used. That we found out that was out of date and it and it was so brainy when it came through the final Telecine. Anyway, so I at this point I was sort of I was a very good amateur cinematographer. I I I knew the basics and I and and this is the funniest weird thing. The first music video we did, we were so excited. We had something like thirty thousand dollars. It was like so much money to us. Unbelievable. And we we did and of course my friend Mine, he can't just shoot a straight performance video, he has to shoot an entire short film narrative on every music video we did. And we two days later we got the dailies back and he was in London, I was in Scotland, and he phoned me and I was so excited when he phoned me and he's like he just said to me, You're never gonna work again. You are you are so screwed. And was like, What's going on? And he said, See all the stuff we did in the slow motion and you lit it at exterior with those big lights? Everything was flickering. Everything was flickering. And so I I learned behold learn flicker-free ballasts on HMIs. man. And and and the weird thing was for about six hours he was calling me back and he was so angry. And and then the and they said that we can fix this problem and it will cost like more than the budget music music video. Yeah. And then the following day he said, Well, we had to cut it, we cut it together anyway, because we I felt like we had to for the record company. And All those bits that are in slow motion and strobing looked amazing. We I loved it. I loved it. In fact, I think I'm gonna use that mistake on the next music video. But that was mus that was music videos, right? That's like how we all learned to do because no b cause you could do anything and it if you if you screwed up, you're like, Well, it's a style and you don't like that style. Yeah, exactly. I mean I was using s different film stocks on every music video, different lenses. We were at this point it was at this point, Panavision have just moved to Glasgow. So and at that point I lived in Glasgow. So I was getting really friendly with Panavision there. And they actually they just had a bunch of anamorphic lenses. And of course everyone shoots music videos wide open, anamorphic, that whole style. And yeah, I just cut my teeth. I I learnt a lot, basically. My my cinematography film score was probably those two years of shooting just a bunch of short films and music videos where yeah, if you make something go wrong, it's kind of like a a kind of great ac happy accident. And Yeah, and then God, what happened after that? I I ended up sort of making a lot of low budget, micro budget movies. the best. The best. You know, everything is round in a box van. The all all you know, camera lights, everything. And yeah, I was just piecing my Red Show rule together one movie at a time and they were terrible movies. but a lot of fun, you know? Yeah. I mean it was the w Weirdly well, first of all, I have a couple of questions. What was the what was the what was the band for the music video? Do you remember? They were a band called they so we ended up getting given the bands that are just signed. We never got any established bands. So they're I think they were called thirteen thirteen. And I think they lasted about two or three years and then they you know. And do you still have the music video somewhere? I do. I do somewhere. I I'm gonna see if you can find that because I really wanna see this one. I think a couple of them online. But and by the way, Mart Martin, the director, long story short, became one of my best, best friends and huge rock. He's kinda like you. He's always there for people. And when things are up and down, you know, we kind of sort support each other. And now he's he's directing a lot of television. Anyway. that's great. And and well, but the other thing that I wanted to I wanted to say or ask you was I mean, I l I did this you know, we all we all did the same thing in some level, which is we started out in nothing and we tried to make something out of it. We screwed up and hopefully we we got past it or whatever. And and and and I did those micro budget movies too, which are way too many to remember. but like I I have to be honest at this point in my career I sort of look back really fondly on them because it was just like like I don't know, just because I don't know about you, but like we were so s we were so naive. Like we didn't know what we didn't know, right? And and And everybody was just like this like, yeah, we just worked 24 hours straight, but who cares? Because we're making mov like I'm I'm living the dream, do you know, even though it was like it was terrible on so many levels. Yeah. And that and you were creating your own rules as you were going. And you kind of realize that pretty much everybody in the room, the director, writer, everybody, they're all in the same boat. They're all there to just try to kind of make the best and and weirdly, I mean you appreciate this, I'm sure, is that when When you know when the dogma movement came through, I don't know if you remember in like eight ninety five when Lars Van Trier created this this kind of ten rules, and you think rules are bad. Actually, the rules were actually quite liberating. You know, you had to shoot in natural light, you had to shoot with the soundtrack recorded on the camera, and all these things. And I think that the we have we were creating our own rules and the less you have, the more you have. Does that make sense? Like the less you have to play with, you're kind of shunted into a corner and you have to fight. And you use different parts of your brain to survive. And this is something I'll maybe talk about later. And it's how you end up becoming a stronger and stronger creative, because on a set, what you're basically doing is problem solving in a sense. You're trying to put together this puzzle visually and then hope it all fits. I think sometimes like on the on the things that you and I get to work on now, which I'm not knocking, 'cause we do get to go, we need a fifty foot technocrane on Wednesday, and we get a fifty foot technocrine on Wednesday, but but but In a weird way you lose something when it's like you can't have there's we're there we don't even know what a technocrane is. So how do we get the camera from there to there and do an elegant move and whatever? And yes, y sometimes you didn't do it so well, but but like you c you did come up with some some cool things and I I kind of miss that in a weird way. But I always felt like one of my favorite Speedman Spielberg movies is Catch Me If You Can. And I know I know for him and I I say for him, it was a s it was a smaller budget and a tighter a tighter schedule. But I I almost wonder whether maybe that was on purpose or or even if it wasn't on purpose, whether maybe that ended up like it 'cause it was just storytelling, right? It was just like we're just gonna even though I mean it's still a big movie and all that stuff. But anyway, yeah, those were good times. There's no question about times. Yeah. Do you do you do you remember any of the names of these classics that you you made like? They will go nameless. I I do I do remember working on a movie, it was like a horror movie with Jeff Fehe. And I mean and I remember I was like Jeff Feyhe is the guy from the lawnmower man and and he brought in his friend who was one of the senseis in karate kids, what's he called, Martin or something? And and they were best friends. And I remember kinda thinking, I haven't made it, but I've sort of I'm working with this kind of cool kind of washed up actor, but he kinda wasn't because weirdly he went on to do some Tarantino stuff. He's kinda like a cult actor really. Anyway, you know, there's moments that kinda go, Yeah, this is kinda crazy and cool and but but the thing is you feel like you end up kind of going around in circles and you have to like break the mold. And I got kind of lucky So this is where my kind of life kind of turned into some breaks. I got some breaks. And w and one of them was a movie called The Sweeney. Now the Sweeney is a it's like a 70s cop show in England about a flying squad who basically go after like hardened criminals, okay? And it's very NPC and it's all male male dominated. And it's so they made a movie of it with Ray with Ray Winston and Haley Atwell, and and and this is the little link with me me and you and Danny Bip. Danny Bishop was the operator. no way. no way. the great Danny Bishop. The great Dan Bishop. Yeah. So if you're listening, Dan, I still have that photograph of you cowering in Trafalgar Square, not knowing how you're gonna do this while you're in a steady cam. anyway. It it was it was a cop movie. It was a lot of fun. and it was my first kind of break with the budget. It was like four million dollars and I kinda remember it because it was for one week only, it was number one at the UK box office. And that's cool. And that that to me was a friggin' cool thing. And you know what was cooler is I I drove my mum. My my dad was working at the time, I think. I drove my mum to the multiple. I took my gaffer because I knew that she might have some notes on my on this movie. So I t I took her to the multiplex and it was it and this was like a week after the red carpet in in London. Okay, for the movie. And I had I was so much more I had so much pride taking my mum into the cinema. And I'm I remember this moment, she turned to the guy giving us tickets and she said, Do you know who this is? And and and I was like, Mom, mum, mom, she's like, You're in the you're so what did she say? You're in the company of greatness. This this man made this movie. Yeah. And I went in and I watched the movie. We we got like you know when you get in this in the multiplexes, you can like VIP comfy seats. Yeah. You pay you pay six dollars more. So we did that. And I just felt so proud. And That's so great. that's so good. Can I I I'll I'll share with you my version of that. The first thing I ever worked on with that, you know, had a credit, was when I was in college I went out to LA for the summer and I worked on the movie Tremors doing miniature effects. No way. Yeah, it was my first thing. I was a production assistant, but I was the only PA for the entire forward productions for the the visual miniature visual effects unit. So like it was like, hey Dave, come over here. I gotta teach you how to how to load the Mitchell because you're gonna be loading it tomorrow. And like I need you to hang lights. And by the way, now we need you to make like a mini Coke can out of a picture of a Coke Coke or Pepsi can. And now we need you to like sit under the dirt while we break through like everything. And I it was glorious. I loved it. So I remember it it premiered, what premiered it came out in in the wintertime and we were I was home in Connecticut and my mom and my dad and I think my whole family and a bunch of friends, we all went down on Saturday night to see it. And it was like a snowstorm. We drove through the snowstorm and I remember we watched it and you know, and it's a great that's a great first movie to be a part of. and then my name came up and everybody everybody cheered and it was it was very cool. But the but the the thing that I'll I'll say is Like three weeks later, my I was at NYU and my mom drives up to she says, I'm gonna come up to see you and or down and she comes, she goes, Come on down to the car, I have something. And I go down and it's this massive lobby card from Tremors with like the ground that opens up and this whole thing. It's like it's literally like ten feet tall. And I'm like, What is this? And she goes, Well, when we were there, I told them that you had been involved in the movie and you were in the credits and asked them if we could have this when we were done. And the guy said, Sure. And so I got it and brought it. So this was in our This is in our three person dorm room for a year. It took over like half of the room. That's so cool. But anyway, you gotta love moms. That's the best. that's just fantastic. And l and listen, I think, you know, deep down my passion was to try and make make my parents proud of me. I remember for many years, like that was a big discussion point when I was like having, you know, why why are you doing this? You know. Yeah. you know, it's not be the bee or end all, but it's definitely a huge chunk of of of your passion really and keeps you driving forward. That's sweet. that's nice. Did she like the movie? it it was a lot of action, a lot of a lot of men, a lot of very un unpolitically correct scripting, but that was because it was based on a T V show that was just like that. I I I'm not saying it's maybe Hill Street Blues might be a good comparison. conversion. So what the Sweet. Rough around the edges. Rough around the edges. Take no prisoners. You know that kind stuff. yeah. And so then I kind of felt like after the Sweeney, I was like, okay, maybe the phone's gonna ring a bit more. And lo and behold, it doesn't. You know, you just kind of keep moving. keep moving. And this is where a sort of weird kind of start of a bigger break happened. My agent called me and he said Hey, listen, they're doing Doctor Who season, whatever. it was the new it was the new season with Matt Smith. And would you want to do an episode? Just one episode. And I was like, geez. I remember thinking, what, television? Like, my God. But but but at the same time, you get older and you start appreciating the little inner kid in you. So I remember thinking, sh screw it, I'm gonna go in the TARDIS. And lo and behold, I you know. I got the episode and I ended up working with a lovely gentleman called Colin McCarthy, who is a very, very talented director. And we immediately hit it off and w it was a weird shoot because I remember they had a they had like a a Christmas special that they were running behind on and I remember running, sprinting between stages because I was DPing both units at the same well, somehow I agreed to do it stupidly. Yeah. But I was sort of setting up two units at the same time. It was kind of crazy, but it was a lot of fun. And Matt Smith, of course, a lot of fun. And yeah, so we did we did Doctor Who and we went our separate ways and about I don't know, three months later Colum called me and says, Listen, I've been offered this TV show, it's like season two and it's called Peaky Blinders and I was like I was like, I know that show. What why And all I remember was the the Nick Cave, the famous red right hand song that you might know, or it's definitely all the Peaky Blinder fans know. And and he says, I think I've got it, and if I have, you're coming with me. And this was basically what after one hour of tele one hour of television, right? I mean, I I could have been doing like twenty, thirty or a hundred hours of TV before you maybe make a break, or you end up just simply going around in T V circles, you know. Was PQ Blinders was was that a big thing at that time or was that still sort of a sleeping It was surfacing like it was it was like it was like being more and more talked about as this really freaking cool show because okay you know l listen the lead the lead characters are antagonists. They're they're kind of criminals effectively. Yeah. But you know, Tom I I think there was a very close relationship to like the Godfather and the sense of loyalty, you know, being in a gang, wanting to go straight, that kind of thing. And you know, has themes of domination and taking over. So when we did season two, it was kind of exciting because actually they kind of coined it the Godfather part two, because Geor George George Steele, who amazed did the amazing job of doing season one actually and the new movie, the The Immortal Man, George set up a really beautiful visual language, which we just kind of like we kind of took and then like expanded. Well effectively it was the Wild West Meets the Godfather. And that and that that was like the the two coolest references I could even imagine. And we had an amazing production designer who was kinda like he was kinda like Napoleon. He he sort of he he was they would kind of give him like a yard of budget and then he'd just spend four yards. Like he he he would like like there was there was one sequence and it was in this it was in a London club and it was famous, I believe, for Frankie goes to Hollywood, shot one of the music videos there, Relax. And and the concept was it's a gold, it was gold, right? But they only gave him so many cans of gold paint, right? So to do like two walls because that's what they thought we could you what it's like. They give you two walls He ended up painting the entire thing, went four times over budget, but we got 360 Steadicam shots. This is what, by the way, when I started to really respect Steadicam. And we had an amazing operator called Barney Davis. And and at this time, with T I don't know if it's the same with up-and-coming TV shows in America, but I was on B camera the whole shoot. So so I yeah, so I so I I and by the way, I miss operating and I I I I've done it for many years and I I will sort of say quite proudly that I think I was pretty good. I was quite proud of handheld. I I loved handheld and a lot of I used to be an editor way back before film school and I used to work on documentaries with a company to two with the Americ this is a slight tangent, but it does make sense. Yeah. I was working on a Vietnam War series for Discovery and I was doing it this in the evenings whilst at film school. So I was one of those kind of night owls. But I j I was blagging a job as an online editor, which basically means I was compositing all the editorial decisions with the master tapes, right? And I lied. I told them I could this. But my point was that I I I was what we at one point during the documentary, they got some red tape released and they got like rushes from the Vietnam War, not just propaganda recycled videos. Yeah. And you will not believe so when we started to run these tapes, it was like it was shot like last week. It was like You know that kind of Kodak? Cause it was like it was just so rich. And I remember and I remember they're obviously using it to edit, but I remember watching these tapes one night and kind of understanding what handheld was as a concept, you know? and hand ha handheld is a thing I'm sure you know where I might go with this. It's been slightly bastardized with a style that it's not really should be associated with, which is social, which is realism. But I I I I suddenly realized that handheld, and this is where I learned it when I was operating, is that you knuckle down on a shot. You don't kind of shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle. You're not constant you gotta kind of knuckle down. get the moment, move, reframe, get the moment. You don't like constantly do this, dance around. I don't anyway. So that's where I coming back full circle to being back on set, I was B-comer operator and there was variations of styles we had handheld and and all that. But yeah, I that's when I started to like in fact the first day we worked with Tom Hardy on Piggy Blinders was a really special day because obviously it's Tom Hardy, it's was a big moment. Sure. And Colomber designed this shot that was running all the way through this brewery, this underground brewery that like was it was like tar in there. It was so black and dark and and kind of menacing and beautiful. And he says, I've got this idea in my head. I just want to follow this character for like, I don't know, three f I'm gonna go through three rooms before we introduce him meeting Keelan Murphy's character, Tom Thomas. And I remember the producer sort of saying a comment was like, Well, that's like three rooms before the even the script begins. Like that's not even gonna make the cut. And you you know what I'm talking about. Like in TV, they're just gonna shred as much as they can. Yep. And they don't care if it's gonna And Colum just turned to me and he was like, Right, okay, just watch. Cause I'm gonna call I'm gonna call the sh because Peggy Blinders was made through the BBC, but it Tiger Aspect. So he called Tiger Aspect and and lo and behold, the shot is in the show. And it's it's the in the intro shot to his character, which is also now a cult moment with his character, and that's why I love when you meet director when when when you're lucky enough to be on set with a director that doesn't buckle to pressure, who just says, Yeah, no, you know, you know what? I'm gonna shoot this anyway. And if you want to cut it, you can fight me and we can maybe get it cut. But it'll still be in the dailies. And that's all I care about. And I I that's great. That's I've had that experience along the way where I did another TV show with a director called Kieran Hawkes and he he was just relentlessly focused. I mean he would just he taught me a lot about we had two cameras For this show, it was called Ripper Street and another period, very very similar period to Piggy Blinders, but it was like a 180 moral compass. It was like about cops. It was about you know. So but he said to me, I'm just we've got two cameras, but I just I just want to use one camera. And Danny Bishop, by the way, was on that show as well. No way. wow. And yeah, and this is where you start to kind of get in you congregate creatively in a room with other people that just are hell-bent to do what they think is right. If I met different people on different paths that have kind of gone, okay studio or okay BBC, I'm gonna do it like you asked me to. But weirdly, now with all the the stuff that we did on Piki, a few years later I was working on a show called Black Sails in Cape Cape Town, which was a phenomenal show because it was pirates. And who doesn't love you know pirates on on on On scale one to one warships, by the way. This was a huge show. Wow. And I was I asked to come in. I was asked to come in because it was so big such a big show. I was asked to help out. Anywho's, I was on set one day with this director I just met the morning of, 'cause there was like four units rotating. And he we start doing a couple of shots and then he said to me, Okay, so now we're gonna do the peaky shot and I was like, What what do you mean? Peaky shot. And he says, well, you know, you know that shot they do where it's slightly so of it's a single on a person, but it's like three quarter down and it feels quite psychological. And I was like, yeah, we did that. And and then and then lo and behold, you get shows that are very inspirational. You know, I think I think in America there's shows like Euphoria, right? That break some rules. They shoot on film and they have and I'd love to talk about film a little bit later in a sense of Yeah. Not look, but discipline. Like there's something that we don't really talk about. But anyway, yeah. So but yeah, I just love shows that break the mold because they took that risk a l all along the way. And that goes for production design. That goes for I mean, Peaky was just a really special show because you just knew it was special. It was one of those shows you felt. It was like planets aligned. Like the script was so rich and beautiful. And yeah, you had two of I I remember shooting a two-hander with Killy Murphy and Tom Hardy. And I'm working with the scarecrow and Bain, opposite each other. And and all it all it is is simple dialogue between two guys. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like a and it's like a boxing match of of acting. Like you get Killian, who's super Steve McQueen. Like there's very he's doesn't give anything away, casts the chest. And then you get Tom Hardy, who's given this bravado performance, which at the time everyone thought was a way over the top, but actually it's kind of It's kind of like the Jack Nick. It's kind of brilliant in this sort of Jack Nicholas in the shining. It's like it's so accentuated. anyway, I I've been talking for a while. I don't know if No, no, no. There's a this is all this is all amazing to hear. The other thing that I think about Piggy Blinders is it, I mean, the sets were just unbelievable. I I don't understand. I mean, it felt like you were in that time period and just that I don't know what that big there's the there's that big set piece that's like It's sort of the street between buildings and there's always like there's always like sparkleing and the furnaces and the fire. That that was in am I gonna get this right? I think it was in Liverpool. so we shot we shot Manchester, Liverpool in the Black Country, which is like halfway down England where the coal mines were basically. And but actually actually one of the centerpiece exteriors is actually a museum. It's an actual Black Country Massive museum. And that's why just by luck and not luck but the fact they found this place, that's why it does look authentic. Cause it actually genuinely is everything you see there is is is is is is wood and and metal from that era. Yeah. Well it's it's so I look like you said the writing is so amazing. The acting is incredible. And and actually to a I I have to ask you, like I mean when you're doing a scene like that, you're saying a two handy w hander with the two of them, it is it kill Killian, is that how you pronounce his name? Correct. Yeah, Killian. Yeah, with Killian and Tom Hardy. I mean, I I don't know about you, but i is it one of those things where you're like, I can't believe I get to be two feet away. Like it it's like I like you can sense you can sense the energy. It like it's I don't know how to describe it, right? It it it is undescribable because I would take a four page dialogue scene between two great actors like that than shooting a huge action sequence. You know? Yeah, right. So to me I actually remember Column said to me, I wanna cross shoot this. And I was like, Okay. And the thing is, in period, it's actually quite it's easier to cross shoot because the lighting is much more simple and naturalistic. It's generally for one or two sources or one. yeah. So so as long as long as you can kinda and he said to I'm gonna give you another hour and I just want the guys to walk in and I just wanna and so we ended up cross-shooting that entire scene. And kinda like what you said, I was operating B camera and Barney was on A. And I just remember it was handheld, but it we had to be buckled down. We had to like it was like it wasn't going anywhere. We're just sensing some unease. Mm-hmm. And I remember I remember I was like, Don't blow it, don't blow it. Just keep watching the just don't don't look into his eyes. Don't look it I I think I was shooting I think I was shooting Killian. And I remember thinking and there's one point where he has a nosebleed and it and it's such a subtle moment. But Yeah, so anyway, yeah, Piki was a just a dream project and I felt so I do remember sort of being feeling very, very grateful for having the opportunity to do that. I I could totally see that. I mean, it it it it I don't remember what I mean, it might have been ER, but it definitely was West Wing. I just remember I I can't remember exactly when it was, but the but but at some point there was that first time, you know, after shooting those things that you won't mention early on, right? Like which is just like, you know, it's not the greatest drama in the world. And we we all had those. But then you get to that you get to that thing where you're with two or three or whatever amazing actors with an amazing script and a director who's letting them go. And you're suddenly like, wow, like this is This is like what I always wanted to be a part. Like it's like this is the I I I I don't know. I I guess what I'm frustrated about is I I for someone who hasn't experienced that, I don't know that I can I can explain it. But it there's like there's like an understanding, like you said, like you said in a weird way, you're like you have to stop yourself and go, don't get t caught in the story and the drama, what's going on, because if you do, you're gonna not be doing your job. Like do your job so you don't mess this up. Well, yeah. Well, exactly. I think I think when when you get a project where you do walk through the doors and you know the scripts are amazing, this the the sets are amazing, it is a lit literally, it does put the this beautiful pressure on you. And I say beautiful pressure, it's like it gets the best out of you. Whereas you could sort of panic. And I I do remember it's a lot of pinch me moments. I remember I mean actually I mean Sam Neil, God you know, God rest his soul, was was also a key character in that show and Helen McCrory as well. You might not know of Helen, but she is a again extraordinary. And we had a two-hander between Sam Neal and Helen McCrory's character in a prison. And it ended up with it kind of cuts before you see it, but effectively the the illusion the the assumption of rape at the end. And and it's a power it's a power play thing. And again, it's just I will take those moments forever. Like I I there's a lot of moments that I I remember fondly, but they're mostly like, wow, like this is why the the this like hair stands up on the back of your neck. And you're kind of going And maybe we I can talk about this a little bit later. But like I was even starting to get imposter syndrome on that show. I was like am I is this I'm on the call sheet. I don't understand why I'm on the call sheet. Or rather, I'm still on the call sheet. That was what I remember. but actually, you know what? I I I felt like it was such a moment in in the TV world in in England where we didn't know what was gonna happen from the outset of this second season. We didn't even know it was gonna go to sixth season and then a movie. and and now and and now it's got a some kind of stage show and it's like it's revered everywhere. I mean, i I have to say it was the one show that I would get stopped in an elevator in America and say, Hey, you you did that show Piggy Blinders. Yeah. a and I remember being on location shooting a show called Candy in in Atlanta and it was the end of the day and we're all hanging out 'cause we were getting hotels locally. And somehow somebody got talking to a guy at the restaurant bar and he said, Can Simon come over and speak to me and my son? And I went over and he says, Can you can you sign this and And and and I and I was like, What and and then and then I was and then it w I was getting genuine like fan mail. I was getting people asking me to sign photographs of me on set. Like it was not that's That's amazing. How you know how cool is Yeah, I mean I would take I would take it you know that over Oscar, maybe but Yeah. but anyway, yeah it's yeah but I but I also think like when you get in those when you get on those projects, which are few and far between, unfortunately. I th I think I again I've said this before, but and I don't and I don't play golf, but I have gone out and hit balls golf balls and and it's when you connect, you're like, now I understand why I've been doing this for two hours. Like it's that much of a like, I get it. Like this is what it is. And and to just to be a part of something like that and know that you're elevating it as well, hopefully, or at least, you know, doing your part or whatever. It's just the coolest feeling in the world. I it's and and that's such a great show. So how so did you just do how many seasons did you do? How long were you there? I I did season two and it was six episodes. So it's it's in com in Amer in comparisons to America, I guess it's a little bit less on the episode count, but it was interesting as well because I remember chatting to Killian about this and this was the time in T V where actors were sort of slipping in to TV and TV the writing of T V felt like it was getting a bit more superior to movies. Yeah. Yeah. Pure purely in the sense of longevity. And the thing that he was nervous to come back for season two because he said to me, I was very nervous because I didn't quite know. And then he he had an epiphany where I he sort of said, Listen, I I could do a movie with this character and play him for two hours or I could play him for six hours and then twelve hours and then eventually six seasons and a movie. And it becomes you know, an investment, you know, and I and and and each season was a deliberate handover to to a new round of crew of directors. Not not not I think they just wanted to keep it fresh and moving along. Yeah. but but yeah, I mean I I yeah, you just get lucky and I think you know, when you mix luck with talent, hopefully, it's kinda like you're kinda going, Well, if I'm not doing this, somebody else is gonna do it and Maybe they'll do it better, maybe they'll do it worse. But I, you know, I mean I I actually I had a quote I was gonna I I there's a couple of quotes that I carry around with me a lot in my head, and one of them is and I think it was Freddie Francis who said this. he says, You know, there's really good cinematography, there's really very rarely bad cinematography, but there's also the right cinematography. And and when you and when you and when you kinda listen to that quote, you kinda it makes me completely understand what I'm doing. Like you gotta do the right thing. And I think and I thought about that quote because I think that applies to operating as well. It's like there's good operating, there's bad very rarely bad operating, but there's also the right operating and there's the right sense of composition and the right sense of understanding of what you're all doing. It's a it's a kind of and and and I've since coming to America because Peaky was one of the last things I did before I got invited. I got invited in 2017 to work on a Ryan Murphy show based, I believe, on either my reel or Peaky Blinders or both that Ryan had seen. but at that point I I I was still kind of plugged into the UK aesthetics of filmmaking. We don't have unions, we don't have This and that. We're we're not protected in a in that way. and so I was still very much like expecting to come to America to s for instance to jump on B camera. And I realized just how much of a of a of an organized machine it was. But I but I was getting onto the point about the right operating and coming, you know, working working with operators that are spending those evenings before the call to understand what the next day's shooting is and understanding the language. And it took me a few months when I first arrived in America to kind of let go to kind of say, these guys do it for a living or these girls do it for a living and they're paid to do it. And it really blew my mind. Like it really blew my mind how much like I really respected operators. Like wow. that's I was gonna say that's not what I expected, but that's great. I was pretty good. I was a good B camera operator, put it that way. I suspect you were very good. I I mean you have an you have an incredible eye. I know that for a fact. But but so it was there so you said six months, so I'll I'll s talk about six months. What w was there was there an internal struggle when you're watching the monitor to think like, no, he they should be doing this or they should be doing that and not and not not jump in and do that and see what happens, or did you jump in or like, you know, how did you deal with that? I I think privately, the in a word, no. I I privately was saying to myself, basically it's on me. Like if I can't translate what they've got to do, if I can't communicate clearly over radios or in person, and and and if they're not getting that direction, then I realize that I need to up my communication skills or focus very precisely on certain phrases and certain words that could articulate what it is because you know I could show you the shot, but that's stepping on your toes. I would sooner you understand and articulate that through hopefully my direct. So I get direction from the director and I direct the operators and da da da da and sometimes it's a triangle, right? So you get that weird triangle where it's like you, the director and operator, and you're kind of going, So am I listening to the D P now or the director? whereas you have never happens. No. But But you know, and just to rewind a little bit in time, I I I did get invited because of PK and a few other things, but I o I I'd also spent about a year kind of using Facebook as a as a network tool. And I was I I sort of I saw it as obviously a great back then it was, you know, what it was. It's not that now, it's like one giant advert. Yeah. But but but I used it to actually make friends with technicians all around the world, not to say I'm gonna go traveling and meet them. I was actually like a forum. Like if I got a a lens, I can ask somebody that might know in whatever. And one of the people that I ended up friending, because I'm friended a number of cinematographers, of course, who I respected. And one of them was a guy called Nelson Craig. And at that time, Nel Nelson had been kind of coming up pretty fast. He I think he did homeland, a lot of homeland. And long story short, I knew that he wanted to go into directing and he He was in touch with me on Facebook and I I this was at the time where I was also posting everything I could. I was like throwing it to the wall. And he would been following my stuff and this was where the invite came to America. I was just back from a shoot and I just got a message on Facebook and he said, Hey man, what are you doing for the next nine months? And I was like, I don't know, what am I doing? And he's like, Do you want do you do you wanna do you wanna come to LA and shoot a a a crime show about Versace. Wow. about the assassination of Johnny Versace with by Andrew Kunanan. And I was like, yeah, I'd love to, but I don't have a I don't have a visa, you know, and you're in LA, so why aren't you just picking somebody out the wind? Well you could throw a brick out of a window and hit a DP on the head, right? And he's like, No, no, no, no, no. I'm gonna I'm I like your work and I'm gonna show it to Ryan. And I was like, Ryan who? And he was like Ryan Ryan Murphy. And even then penny didn't drop. Because Ryan Ryan was a huge export, but he wasn't necessarily like reaching England in large quantities. I gotcha. Okay. So or maybe I was just too sheltered. Anyway, he's like Ryan Murphy and I quickly Googled and was like, Holy shit. Okay. And then literally to his word, twenty minutes later he said, and this is what I loved about it. It was so kind of like it was so sort of firm and direct. He's like, Ryan loves your work, you come over to America like this. We'll we'll get your visa sort of go. my gosh. So yeah, Fox Fox Studios paid for my visa and on I think it was 10 days later, I was driving through Fox Studio Gates. Like wooden gates into this amazing new world. And and I I think I was shadowing for the first week just to kind of catch up. And Nelson had lit all the sets. So these gigantic sets. you know, Ryan Murphy's known for his scale and beauty and you know, caution design, everything top to bottom is like and you know what? It was so weird. It felt like it felt like Peaky Blind is on steroids. It felt like I was like I was just in awe for like a week going, but then I kind of then I was like going, actually I started to relax. I was like, he's lit he's lit he's lit it all. And it's it's you know It's it's lit. I mean, it's like, you know, twenty K's coming out of your your ass, like everywhere. Like it was all perfectly lit. And the the the the sets were all as they are with Ryan's world, they're all livable. You can live in these sets and they and you can and it's a steady cam's wet dream. Like you could literally go into the ratchet set where we were and steady cam for five minutes and still not look off the the backing. Amazing and their set his sets are unbelievable. that that's yeah. Yes and and it'd be hard to make them look bad on top of that. Yeah. Well that was the slight relief in the sense of pressure, is that the the work a lot of the work with his world is done. He's built the world. So you just gotta choose the right angles to tell that certain scene. And I remember doing years later, I did a podcast and somebody would talk to me about wide shots. And I've got few fascinating insights about well, what I think a wide shot is because it's an experience, is that sometimes the first thing you want to do is just do a wide shot when you see this spectacular set, right? Yeah. And then and then three days later you're back in the same set and you're like, you're lining up the same twelve mil wide, and you're like, why am I doing this? Why don't I just start unraveling this scene? And to me, like a the better wide shot is a three sixty steady cam of a room. Like to that's a wide shot. That's how I s like I you're it's actually bigger than a wide shot. You're scanning four dimensions. that's you know, I don't know if you've ever thought about it like that, but I think about you know, unraveling you it's almost like you you're you know, where you've got these apps now where you can scan the environment into a 3D model. To me, that's a wide shot. I mean and it's also you experience you're experiencing the space. no, that's fantastic. So wait, it sounded like you had some sort of concept about wide shots or was that it? No, I learnt about that. I learnt about not not over jumping the gun with too many glor gorgeous wide shots. it's the notion of where and when to use them. Mm-hmm. I'm sure the editor would love them on every scene, but I come from a respect of, you know. I know, the Godfather or the Cone Brothers. Like if you watch a Cone Brothers movie, there's very, rarely a wide shot in there. And if they do, it's completely for one purpose and that's for geography. And that and that can teach you a lot about not over overshooting, basically. Like I I I you know, you learn over the years to be a much stronger artist in the sense of covering things as it should be covered. And this is where a good respect for an operator comes in, is that They could be a part of that discussion. I'm always an open book on Seth. Like if somebody wants to say, Well, you know, in fact, this is why when we first worked together on Hollywood. On Hollywood, which was a mid shoot takeover, because the gentleman that we had before was let go. And you came into my world, and that's the first time I met you. And you were the first people to kind of question, not in a you're not like questioning it as in the criticism, you're kinda going, What if we do this? Or what if we do that? is that right? I Yeah. I'm not saying do that instinctively. So I'm not saying that everyone wasn't like, I think I think a lot well, put it this way, Andrew Mitchell, the amazing Andrew Mitchell. Amazing Andrew Mitchell. beautiful man and was basically Ryan's go to steady camera operator. And he was I remember it was in a it was in a long kind of shining S corridor and he did this steady cam down, met two characters and bounced back with them. And honest to God, I thought it was on a on a techno. Andrew is is all right at this point I think I should say Andrew was a animal steady cam operator because I think he's technically a DP now. I'm not sure I will take this moment because I haven't said this in a long time to point out that Andrew was my assistant on a show in Texas and I got my new Steady Cam while I was down there. He was very excited. I was very excited And at some point he said to me, Would you teach me how to do steady cam on the weekends? And I said, Sure. So I basically am responsible for everything that Andrew has ever done. That's amazing. Take it, take it. Take he would laugh at that. He would appreciate I've told him I've told him that before. but no, he is an incredible he's an incredible artist and an incredible technician. yes and an incredible person. Yeah. He and he and by the way, yes, he is up deep D Ping now. And I there was a transition moment of about a year where I would get on the phone with him probably for maybe two hours and I wasn't like bending his arm, but I was like I think he felt like he was letting a lot of people down by not jumping to another career choice. And and I said, Look, if you're not gonna do it today and you're not gonna do it tomorrow, when's it gonna happen? You know, you just gotta jump and learn but I don't think I was the reason why he ended up kind of bowling becoming a a great D P but but he I learned a lot from him because, you know, he listens. He's a listener. He listens to exactly what you say and and he has so much stamina. And I think every operator is a little bit like a different animal you meet. You know, you can meet people that basically don't will just kind of do exactly what you want. And there's DPs or operators that will would love to discuss things. And I'm I'm kind of open to both those avenues. I'm honest. Like I don't mind. well I I remember when I came into Hollywood because I came in literally I think in the middle of an episode maybe or or Yeah, it was a it was a sharp transition because they were going through rewrites for a week. There was something weird, but but I had I and I and I met you in that British pub on Hollywood. In that British pub, that's right. Yeah. And Yeah. But I but I remember coming in and and I you know, you and I had just had had that beer and that was about it. So I didn't really know what I was walking into. And remember one of the things that impressed me was was you know you basically were were w you'd go we'd go into every every scene and it wasn't sort of like all right, I want this and I want this, I want this, I want this. It was sort of like let's let's look at this and figure out how to best tell this story and what what if we were over here, but what well what do you think? And and it was there was just like a I I really appreciated the fact that number one, you clearly you are you were always talking about the story. And and that im impressed on me. 'Cause you know, I mean, look, you probably do this too when you first start working with someone, you sort of just like sitting back going, All right, who the hell is this person? Can I trust this person? Do I like this person? and but but it was just like it was always like, How do we make this better? And and and even if as at the last moment, if I came in with an idea and you liked it, we were like, Yes, that way, give give us ten minutes. We're just gonna do this over here and whatever. There was no There's no frustration about it or anything and I yeah, we that was that that show was a lot of fun actually. We had a lot of we had a lot of It was it was so much fun. Yeah, I I remember going to Panavision to, you know, sort some gear out and I just book I just bought a book on George Horale and you might know George Horale who's the big famous Hollywood portrait photographer and and I d I don't know whether I went in my eyes closed every time I went into the foyer, but I I I was sat in the foyer waiting to meet Dave Dodson. And I looked up and I was like these these like silver prints of George Harrow all down the wall, all the way down the corridor. And I was like, my god, this is beautiful. And you know, any anyway, you take it as a little bit of a sign from above, but Yeah. And those those literally could have been on could have been on the set of of Hollywood. I mean there were stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we had we had a lot of fun. I remember that exterior where we had a lot of like searchlights and the the premium. my god, that was great. And and and Yeah it was funny 'cause you know what I love, you know, it's I think it's a bit of a hand down situation of communication. If a DP can let a sorry, if a director can leave a DP alone for like an hour and not feel nervous and you know they're looking after you. And if you leave an operator on set for an hour, you know they're looking after you too. It's like this it's not even a pecking order. It's like a it's like a funneling of creative process and Yeah. And and and I and and I had to leave you alone to do some things because I remember literally jumping on a camera that was hidden behind some wall to get another secret shot because a lot of it you know and it's it's funny because like Ryan Murphy's shows are they are immense but they are in a weird way no different in the sense of like you still have to get those five pages you still have absolutely if if anything the the the Antes is much higher on his set because A the everything's so beautiful and you don't want to screw it up but B There was a lot to do. There was there's a lot of content. And I remember were you on the la the day where we shot the interior with like six cameras? yeah, at the at that big at that big it was in downtown. Yeah. Yeah, and we had like we had like six cameras on stage all looking out at the audience. Six cameras. Yeah, I do. And and I actually remember er I t I spoke to Eric, the producer the night before and he no, it was not the night before, but it was like two days before shooting and he's like, How are you gonna do this? Cause we had to do like I think it was an entire run of the last section of the episode. So into the Academy Awards, right? It was the Academy Awards. So I think it was by 15 minutes of screen time. And he's like, my God, how are you gonna do this? And I was like, well if you can give me six cameras, I think I can do this. And the thing the thing that you learn as a DP is I I decompart my brain goes into like this this kind of f working out mode of like it will just figure out where I need to put certain cameras at a certain time at a certain place. And I think that you know to survive, partially to survive as a cinematographer in this world is to come and make the days. And and I remember at the end of that day, Eric texted me and was like, holy shit, well done, you did it. You know, and and then if and a producer is genuinely r r you know happy and relieved And recognize it and and and also if you can do that, but also make it kinda look single camera-y. Yeah. Yeah. I mean still I did I did an ASC Clubhouse with Stephen Lighthill and he he said something really lovely. He like, Yeah, I love the show. It looks like a single camera show and I was like, Holy cow. That's great. So it's Hollywood you're talking about Hollywood. Hollywood, yeah. So I remember Gar Brian Garbellini was was on B camera, but who was the C camera guy? Do you remember the C camera guy? I can't remember his name. Mark Mark Likowski, I think it was. I think that's it. Mark, that's right. Do you I the the thing that I remember him about? It's funny because I remember when I met with you, you told me it was a three camera show. And I remember thinking like, you've got it. Kidding me, it's a three-camera show. Like, it's a hose down or whatever. And then yeah, you I remember you said in the bar, you were like, No, no, no. We got this guy, and like his whole job is to find just like artistic moments and just this yeah, cool stuff. And sure enough, that guy, like I he would find the most interesting things like shadows and just like artistic avant-garde stuff. he would end up, he would end up in a cupboard. he'd end up he'd end up in the rafters sometimes. You're like, Okay, Mark, where are you? He's like, I'm up like and then wait a minute. I know what you're talking about with the rafters. There was there was a scene in a in in a in a sound stage with like just tables. Anything was a table read. And we were like, Mark's gone AWO, he's gone missing. Where is he? And you know what though I I love Mark as well, because he I I wouldn't say this is necessarily good advice to pass on to future operators, but he was kind of ballsy. He you know, he if he didn't like a shot idea, he'd actually just say, I'm not doing that shot. That's I mean, I'm gonna do this shot. I'm gonna shoot through this mirror. And I was like I don't I actually don't mind that attitude if you really know and as Peter O'Toole once said, Peter O'Toole talked about you don't read a script, you study a script. Like you don't read anything. You study, study, study. And as long as an operator's done their homework and they're not just doing some artistic shot 'cause they want something else in their showroom, I'm happy. I'm totally happy. And I don't I don't mind that attitude. And it's not even attitude, it's like, Okay, I think I can do better. And it's like, Okay, great. Well but but I think it's fair to say that that that that that definitely worked for him as a C camera operator. If he was an A or a B camera operator, there might have been yeah. Yeah. But he was like he was like a painter or something like that. Like he was really an artist. And there was just always this fascinating stuff that he did. And I always appreciated the fact that you were like, we were all like it was all embraced, right? But but the interesting thing, and I don't know if you felt this way, when I watched the the show, in a weird way, I almost felt like it suffered from it a little bit because I found the show to be really cuddy. And I often wondered now, maybe it would have been without it, but I often felt like They were given too much stuff and we have to use it. Like I don't know. I agree. I no, I do. And I can see it because I can I have, you know, you know what it's like. You got this weird muscle memory, you remember each scene and what and how you did it differently. The thing that the I think this was when was this? So I did so I for Ryan Murphy I did the Fersace story and then I did Pose w in New York, which is an amazing transgender show based on nine 1980s Paris is Burning documentary. and then I'm and then I did Hollywood. No, sorry, then I did Ratchet, which was the nurse Ratchet story. Back in the actual same period as a Hollywood, Ryan's got this love of 1953, I think it is. but what I was getting at is that as at this point I was still learning the the tools that were given to me. Like I was still learning about Having a technocrane every other day and what the hell to do with it, having three cameras, and what you do is you start to kind of saying, Yeah, three C camera. I in fact, this is this is I I've said this to you a couple of times, is that I don't look at cameras like ABC, like the alphabet. I look at them as like I think I said to this to you, it's left eye and right eye. It's it starts, it's it's a part of the same brain. I don't know where C camera is, maybe it's the middle eye. But but do they call that the third eye? The yoga? The third eye. And and and and the thing is, Mark Mark was that kind of like, you know, that kind of like just go for it. Like just go for some shot. It might make it for a second in the cut. But I do agree with you. I learned a lot after Hollywood about almost leapfrogging sh cameras. Like if there's a scene coming up on the next stage and they've got it pre lit, you know, why not get the wide shot? you know, lined up, why not get like a intro tracking shot or you know, whatever it is. And that way you're using a tool to to actually bounce. So when you're bouncing, you can kind of roll pretty quickly. And I and I always believe in like turning over every 40 minutes. Like whatever you gotta do. I mean that's that's what that's what I think is going to keep you employed in this town. Like it yes, you gotta be artistic, but also you gotta kinda tick the right boxes for the producers. And what do you mean turning over every forty minutes? Well, I don't like you wanna be constantly, you know, rolling. Not constantly turning over rolling. Yes. Yes. Sorry. Yeah. Not not turning over like a puppy and having your your your stomach strokes. I thought you meant like moving on to the next shot or something like that. And I was like, wow, he times them. Well, you know you know what you what freaked me out when I first came to Hollywood, I guess, you know, or Ryan Murphy would is there was a person paid to text all the executive producers that the the setups as we're shooting them. That's that's a thing that I don't know when that started, but but yeah, it's it's weird, right? It it's very weird. I got used to it very quickly because I was quite proud that I was kind of turning over quite quickly because I was again my brain was getting a lot faster in figuring shit out. but you could look at that PA and go, holy shit, this is a lot of pressure. I gotta I gotta shoot something. But really, you know, you know, you just shoot it when you in your own time. I mean, I I've learned from a couple of I worked with a lovely man called Ben Semenoff, who was the operator on a on on Oz Ozark. great man. And he was directing an episode of Candy, and he he said to me, Listen, I come from the Ozark world. I'm gonna spend two thirds more time, I think, setting up a scene, but one le one third less time shooting the coverage. I know exactly how I want to shoot this. And I was like, holy cow, this is amazing. Okay, great. And he was like an artist. He would he was working as a director, but he also had this kind of operating communication thing of I mean Chris Trover, Chris Trover was the operator on on that's right on Candy. Yeah, sure. On Candy. And so him and I believe him and Ben knew each other. And and I remember Ben had Ben had this first shot that he did in this the set of this house was this retract. It was like a the the It was like a fifty foot techno opened right out through the house. And then it was like it was panning left and right with his characters and coming through the corridor and down to this bedroom. And it was all in one shot. And I remember he just he took like three hours to do it, but he got it and it's in the cut. And to me, that's like, yay. You know, like that's to me that to me is directing. You know, and I think well like you said like you said before, that's the right cinematography, right? I mean that's it's right choice. It's the right way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Telling the story. and I think, you know, streaming has let a law a lot of pressure about, you know, the the the duration of episodes now. So it could be fifty-eight minutes, it could be fifty-three minutes. And I think that's why T T V is is competing with I don't think TV will ever get to the I don't know if it was Tarantino as somebody said about the kind of There will always be a formula to TV, just naturally. Because you'd naturally on some level. There has to be on some level. But I think the artistry, I remember I remember thinking there's no difference between this set and a movie set that I'm on now. There's no difference to me. Yeah. A lot of you've been on. In in fairness, you know, when you're doing Ryan Murphy stuff. the the sets are probably actually better than most most movie sets. I mean the stuff you the the the quality and the and the the visuals of it, like I mean that's that that's hard to compare to it it so yeah it's kinda like you know when you have those dreams and you kinda kinda open a fridge and there's something inside the fridge and you kinda go, how can that happen? 'Cause it's in a dream. How can I know what's in the fridge? Like when you open a drawer in Ryan's set, there'll be something it's something tangible about it. And yeah, it's it's Yeah, I feel very grateful to have kind of come through what, I think eight seven shows for Ryan. That's amazing. Wow. Yeah. And I and I met so many great friends along the way, including your good self and many, many other good friends. and I learnt a lot and I'm very grateful. And I and I think I spent the first show just praying that I was not gonna get fired. You know, that's why I With I was like knuckling down. I mean, I know I've we've had you know a coffee or a beer where you like you literally have to check the call sheet in the day, and I'm not gonna get in my car until I see my name on that call sheet. That's exactly right. And I'm like, my God, I'm actually still on the call sheet. Yeah. There's one thing I meant to ask you about when you f that first day that you drove ten days later, you're driving into Fox Studios. did you get a convertible? I th no, I think I was drawing a driving I think I was driving a Prius, but looking at me. You almost had me. Yeah, I know. I dropped the ball there. No, but that is the that is I was just thinking about that. That's like I mean, it's it's one thing to be, you know, driving into a studio and you're like, I've arrived. Like this is what I always thought of like I'm I'm I'm in Hollywood. Like this is it. But it's another thing to get be in England, get a call, and ten days later like that's literally like that's out of the movie, right? Yeah, I mean it's it's ridiculous. It is ridiculous. And that whole moment in my life was ridiculous. And I I tell it quite proudly to a lot of people who still kind of they just kind of can't believe that yeah, that that happened. And I I think that there is I'm not gonna say angels in this world, but there's definitely good people that may not have even met you, but they appreciate who you are and they get a feeling of who you are and they may have talked to somebody about a second opinion, but they've I literally was like, You're spending so much money to fly me all the way over when you you're in the you're in the epicenter of cinematographers. You know, and then and at that point I was when was I? I was BSC in 2018. So just after Peaky. And at that point I was in awe of the ASC, of course. Like I was like, holy cow. but yeah, I just remember being in Fox Studios like kind of getting I I it was like it was like a bucket of cold water was thrown over me. I was just like, keep keep calm, keep calm. Just just I don't know, just I don't know how I I it w the first few days were surreal. I remember sitting in my own office with a plaque and kind of going You know, some somebody's gonna come in and ask me a question pretty soon. I'm pretty sure Gaff is gonna ask me. I hope I can answer it. How how many twenty Ks they want in a set and how so so so does that so so I mean the interesting thing about that to me is you've done Peaky Blinders, which at the time sounds like I mean it wasn't the show that We all know it is now. It wasn't as big as it was, but it was still a you know, it was a budget and big actors and whatever. So you know how to light sets, you know how to you how to this, you know how to that, you I mean, you know, you know how to play the game, you know you know how to work with a crew, you know how to make a schedule, all that stuff. And but then suddenly, you know, it changes up because at least this is what I'm thinking and I'm wondering. Someone from a ma the United States, which I'm assuming maybe naively that that that there's sort of You grow up in Britain, there's a dream to go to Hollywood and and you know, live the Hollywood, you know, dream sort of. So so someone contact someone big with who can have anyone they want contacts you out of the middle, you know, well Nelson wasn't the middle of nothing, but but you know, randomly somewhat and says, We're gonna spend money to bring you over here. We're gonna like, you know, we're gonna we're gonna bet on you. Like it's not just come into the office, we're actually like doing something. D it I mean, does that does that play with your head a little bit? Like does that is is because you still know what you're doing and all that stuff, right? Yeah, I it's a funny it's a funny feeling because like I mean I I talk a lot about imposter syndrome and it is a real thing. I mean, Danny Bishop, I think, mentioned it of on your last chat. And it it's Danny and I Danny and I when we met at the SOC, when you pretty much introduced us and we both won, we're both looking at each other going Why the hell are we here? Yes, I know, right? And I remember you leaning to me and saying, You know we're not gonna win this. Can you but can you video it? Can you video it for me anyway? And lo and behold, the best the best people want. But but I I think I think imp imposter syndrome is a is a is a healthy thing in a sense that you're grounded and you're humble and you're like, Holy shit, is this really for me? rather than going, hey, I'm some kind of big shit now. I'm I'm I'm like the dude. I deserve this. Yeah. I deserve this. Whereas listen, I come I'm self-taught. I've spent 20 years of my life, many of them on the early days of sleeping on couches. And at one point I actually slept in a garage on a low budget like Karage movie. you know, it's like how low can you go before things start like you know, picking up? And you know, and I I've I've had a a a long journey, personal journey in myself because I did it all in the sense of like Yes, I luck came my way, but I I feel like you make your luck in a way by just working your ass off. And yes, the planets align here and there in your life, but sometimes they don't align. Sometimes you get you know, I mean, you get a script that's like, my god, I don't I don't have any connection to this whatsoever. But I have been very disciplined in the sense of choice. I mean, I I've just had a choice. I've turned down certain projects just because I'd really didn't, you know, c like I said, connect to the script and I could have so I'd be out of work for three months because of my decision. But I felt like another bus is gonna come along and maybe deliver maybe something better, maybe not, but I at least I know I'm not selling out by just doing anything. which I think, you know. The industry right now is an interesting place, but I think it's also a place where we need to be completely optimistic and and and we can't and I and I don't think it's worth like naysaying or just saying, it's terrible. It's but it's not. It's just the state of affairs that are out of our control. And I think that the way I see it is like you just gotta wait for the for the for the the tornado to go pass through the town and just you know. pick up where we left off and just start shooting and you know that kind of stuff. So Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. a question for you about camera operators. what's what when you think of good camera operators that you like to work with, is there something that stands out about them that I'm asking because for up and coming camera operators, are there facets of their personalities or their ways that they work with you or the things that they do that you you appreciate it. That you can that you can put your finger on? Mm. It's just it's a it's a weird like X factor feeling. Like it it it a lot of it is like incredible focus and and understanding. Understanding about what you're doing. You do your homework. I don't think there's any shortcuts in life with operating. You can't just turn up and set and wing it. And if you are, you're not really contributing to a a a scene. In fact, you're damaging a scene. I think that I I hand the responsibility down to an o or across to an operator, I should say, and say, Hey, we know what we need to do in this scene. You know, and you've you've brought this to the table. I think it's all about accountability and how much of that pie is made up of the director, operator, or just the director. You know what mean? Like, I'm sure you know you've met directors that literally know Colin McCarthy being one, he would call numbers out to the camera team. Like, I know this is gonna be a hundred mil. Like he he was like he was that focused. He was like, I guess I know I've seen Spielberg work in that way. He's very much a numbers guy. He knows exactly what he wants. And then you get directors that are giving you and the operator a brief to interpret the day's work. And and it's kind of like you adapt that and it's like that's the style I like more. I like being given that. And I also love the the joy of a set where we don't get too fussy about who's taking credit for what. And you know, life's too short. You just you just gotta go you gotta gonna really I think the credit is being proud of it at the end of the day and kind of saying, hey, check out my show, it's on Netflix, you know. Yeah. and and being genuinely proud of it. But I think, yeah, I mean it's it's also like I I like people who are quiet but not silent. Does that make sense? I gonna say when you said quiet, I was like, I thought you liked me. It's it's kinda like you you kinda know when to keep your mouth shut. and I think that goes the same for a DP as well of how they were with directors. I think it's a little bit of a chain of command, but I but I I think more than anything, focus and attention. Like they know what we're doing. you know, the COVID was a very interesting time where you would have basically it was like mm, what do they call it? that game where like the you know, everyone's sitting in chairs and moving around. It's like every day I was getting my crew thrown offset and we'd get a a guest operator in within two hours. And then there'd be another operator in the afternoon. So you were constantly given somebody who you had to talk to quite concisely about what the day work was. And I think unless I kinda like said it earlier on, but I think it's about how good you are at communicating. It makes you a a and I think that goes for everybody. You gotta be a good communicator. I I will say that it I I didn't say it at the time, but I was very impressed when you were saying because I I actually somewhat believe this. I mean, I I don't well, you were saying that if the operator isn't isn't able to do give you what you want, it's probably because you're not communicating it well enough. And I and I to yeah, I totally appreciate that. I will say there are times when you know People have communicated things perfectly and I've just misunderstood that because of my own you know, prejudices or whatever I'm I'm mentally putting in, and that's on me. but but I I I appreciate the fact that you realize that it's it's there's two sides to that. Well, there's more more than two sides to that, but you know, that it's about it's about passing on the information and then on and then on the operator side, it's about interpreting the information. I was talking to a really good friend of mine who did a great podcast, Ari Isler, and he's an incredible operator. And he said that a director wants a dire director, do you know do you have you worked with Ari before? No, I admired his work. He did did La La Land, right? Am I on the right no no no that's that's Ari R that's Ari Ari Robbins. yeah Ari Isler i did Boston Strangler and he did Ozark with me or I did Ozark with him and just amazing. But he said he was working with a director who said to him, don't show me different, show me better. And I thought that was really good. And he was basically basically he said what I realized was he was like, Here's here it is, make it better. Don't don't change it, just make it better. And it's I think that's that's a tremendous part of that's That's the fun part. I think I I mean listen, I come from a real appreciation of and I guess you might ask me at some point about my five movies that I've love on the sense of that is that a lot of it is about understated to me the power of operating is about being understated and not flashy and you know you know, it's kinda like, you know, what is the old saying, like if a shark stops swinging sw swimming it dies, that kind of thing. Like we've got to keep things moving. Whereas I appreciate operators that you know I mean I I I remember the SC Awards and I remember the clips being played and it was like the basket was it the basketball TV show it was like woo everything's moving but brilliant. I mean absolutely perfect for that show. Yeah. And then it was like this and then it was like the bear which was like the wanna in the kitchen. Yep. And then and then up up comes Ozak and it's like this molasses slow tracking shot through through a living room Which I was mesmerized by because I was like, Where is this going? And then it goes out the door, doesn't it? And then it ends up behind a car. And I was like Yep. I was like, nailed it. I was like, that that's everything you need to know. Yeah, that's also all Jason Bateman. I mean, that's just like all you gotta do with that one is not screw it up. But yeah, and yeah. It it helps it helps when you have someone that smart putting things together. but what I'm I I think I know the answer to this, but Do you do you get nervous before the first day of a show? I get butterflies. I don't know if that's I I don't I I've learned you know, back in Eng England there was less sleep because you were worried that the gaffer who was on a certain rate wasn't hiring the right lights or the right gels or whatever it is that's gonna turn the next day. Yeah. And I've had that happen. I've had a I've had a crane and a light delivered four streets down because somebody did a typo. It actually happened on Piggy Blinders and we ended up getting it back just in time. But when I came to America it's such a I'm not gonna use the word machine. It's so friggin' organized in the sense of like every single HOD is responsible for their equipment. And if they don't do it, they're gonna get fired or very potentially told off. And so I sleep a lot better here 'cause I know that a lot of choices are gonna be made. Like like, you know, I've worked with Dave Donahoe, the grip, many times and I know that Dave is So organized, so passionate, has a great team. And if he says he can get this by 7 a.m. the next day, get like a 2020 silk or whatever it is, I'll believe him. And if he doesn't, you know, he'll work something out. But you you sleep more. I don't know whether whether this was what's was the question, but you sleep a lot more and you're more relaxed because the responsibilities are in people's hands that deserve it. Like I have responsibilities. So I don't really get nervous. I just get nervous that I've made the broader decisions. correctly, you know, like you know, it's like when we're doing the White House and impeachment, you know, giant maze like set. And I remember Jeff Chin, the ga wonderful gaffer, said to me, Okay, it's time now to pick your your jails for the 20 Ks because we're gonna go for like 40 of them and you know what do you want? And was like, God, here we go. commitment. Commitment and you know and you can you can kind of You can fix it and re gel and all that of stuff, but yeah, I just I just I I get excited actually on a first day shoot. I kinda get that's great. Pumped up. Well, I be it's funny you say that because I I that I that was sort of a word I was looking for before, but I didn't quite get to is Working with you, I enjoy working with you because of you're always so excited about what we're doing. Like there's thank you. There's very much there's very much and sometimes I was on a show a little while ago that was kind of low budget and wasn't being it was a tough one. And the DP came in one day and could just tell that everybody needed any and he said, Guys, we're working on a movie set. Like this is what we always wanted to do. Like, I mean, I know this isn't the best or whatever, but like we're still working on a movie set. And it was this moment where you're like, Yeah. And I feel like like that that's always the case when I'm working with you. It's just like I this is so exciting. Exactly. I I mean you you worked your life towards this goal of being on this set and you're on the set now. So why are you whinging? Why are you moaning? Like this I don't I don't like complainers. I really don't. And I don't like I don't like people that you know find a negative angle on everything. Like it's like, okay, you need to sort your life out, maybe, you need to make some decisions, but And this is why I've been very thorough when I crew people, if I'm going to say Atlanta, like somewhere foreign or Toronto, I'll I'll make sure I work five times harder to interview as many people as I can because I it's down to me to not be lazy and get the right family together and it is a family and and I've touched wood, I've had such I I don't think I've really had a bad egg or a bad day on set. So earli earlier you mentioned the difference between film and vi and and digital and I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Yeah. So I you know, obviously we're in a you know, when digital started, my in fact the Sweeney we shot on the Alexa, that was my first time with the Alexa. And I remember being very impressed with the sensitivity, of course, and a lot of it was like exterior nights in London and it was it was almost like you need to take well, I have two quotes about film versus digital. First one is Film cameras loves light and digital cameras doesn't great have a great relationship with light. You have to like be very careful about how you how you give light to a digital camera because it it it's weirdly I don't know whether this is the trend because everything's getting darker on TV, but it seems to work a lot better under low light. But the other thing that is it's not an unspoken thing 'cause I'm sure there's been seminars where people have talked about it. But if I gave you a film camera and four rolls of film and the next day you've got to shoot this scene. And then the following day, I'll give you a digital camera with a hard drive and well with six cards and you can shoot six hours of footage. And then you play those two scenes that you shot on those two different formats. I guarantee that the film one will be better because you thought about it a lot more. You you'll think your brain is engaging with the next day's material. And I I'm not I'm not sort of bastardizing digital format. I think it's gotten better and visually it's got better. You know. I mean, I Wally is it Wally Fester said, you know, the reason why film looks so good because it's film. Like there's no real discussion here. It's film. Like but the thing is, film also has to me many it's like a chameleon. You can watch an old movie like Taxi Driver and the decision was to shoot on very slow film stocks at night and it looks frickin' amazing. But then you can get you can get a print of a movie which looks terrible. Like you can get some movies that look so grainy. So you you To me it's kind of a discussion about w what is it that it's supposed to do. But I think it naturally gives a director and everyone on the set. I mean, I think even actors talk about when you hear the purr of that mag going through, there's nothing that beats it. And you know Yep. This is why I'm really excited that, you know, I had some notes about not notes. I'm not gonna give Chris, I'm not gonna give the Odyssey notes, but I did have a few notes. but loved it, but I but I love the fact that it's it's kind of putting the cinema experience back on the map in a big, big way. And I think that we needed we needed something to happen. And you know, but I think I think it's a discipline thing. It goes back to what we were saying. When you have less lights and less equipment, you think you have less, but you have a lot more freedom. You know, I don't I don't think having a technocrane and everything you want for on a day is freedom. It's actually it's a huge ratchet strap around your neck that you've got to get that working. I remember working I think it was I'm not gonna mention the direct 'cause I might get it wrong, but it was a director who had got given a technocrane one day and he panicked because he felt like it was basically a typo. It was it was booked by accident, but he felt obliged to use it. He felt obliged to use it. And I think he used it and it totally didn't make sense sense for the scene. And and you can I I can kind of see these in when you see a scene in a movie where for some reason there's like like these wild crane shots, there's six or seven of them in one scene, and then the next scene is like, you know, nice and still and static, and you kind of go, Yeah, well that was the technocrane day. They had like that was the technocrane day. It was like it's like the producers going, You know how much this costs per minute? Mm-hmm. well and you know, going back to what you were saying about film, I think it was Matthew Reese told me He said, the thing that he misses about film was there was always that take where it was like, Hey, we are like five seconds short in the mag. So we're gonna do it and just see how it goes. And everybody just pace it up little bit. Pace it up, pace it up a little bit. And he said that was inevitably the best take. It was always the best take because it was just it had an energy and it had an immediacy and whatever. And he said and I had never thought about this. He goes, It doesn't happen anymore because you don't care whether whether you use it the the whole card or not. It doesn't it doesn't mean anything. And I was like, that that's absolutely and he said and there was this thing of like you wanted to get the scene out before you heard the So you were like you were like racing it. And and I thought about it and I thought, you know what, I I remember those. Yeah, it was always like there was just something it was just an extra something there. So it's changed it in so many ways. Yeah. I mean it's kinda like wait for it, film's on set, you know, get get with the program. You know, films on set now. You know, get with it. And I don't know. I j I it's it's kind of weird though because it's like a pendulum. Like sometimes it's too much pressure. Like sometimes it's like, why am I just getting four hours of film? But but I I can't I remember I remember when we're doing music videos with my good friend Martin Smith. Hey Martin, just wanna say hi if you're listening. He's such a great friend. and I he'll he'll laugh at this every night before the following day shooting, which is always done in one day, like this these like 20 grand music videos, he would always I would always test him on the shot list. Cause he'd written a shot list, but it was very specific. And yeah, it was it was always the night before. Just, you know, because we knew that we had six rolls of film and that was it. And and what you don't get, you don't get like tough shit. But I th I think I think sometimes that can be a little brutal. I think if there's something in between that just kind of goes, shit, you know, you're not we're not gonna walk away with not a complete scene but yeah yeah I don't I mean digital digital is great. I mean it is so great in so many ways and I think I slept a lot. You know, I mean Deek Roger Deacons talked about this, right? Like the moment he started shooting digital he his heart you know his blood pressure went down, he slept a lot more you know but you know if if you ask me about my opinion about people's arc of their career, I I'm more of a fan of, you know the early Corn Brothers than the later ones, but you know that's just evolution. Yeah, that's absolutely. and and look, the other part of that, I I get that Roger Deacon's and everybody else's blood pressure you know because it w it was basically for anybody not understanding is because you're looking at a monitor and you're seeing the final product. You don't have to you're not guess guessing anymore. But the producers are also seeing the final product. And I and it used to be that you could go You can go, but there's not going to be any image on the on the film. I mean that if you want that, that's fine. And they they couldn't do anything and now they're going, This looks good enough. Let's go. Let's go. Yeah. you know, I I a friend of mine pointed out, he said he said, Remember when the D P used to sit right next to the director at the mine? And now they're not even there. They're off in some other they're off in a yeah. Yeah. yeah. So, you know, it's it's I think everything has everything has pluses and minuses. you you brought it up first, but I'm gonna bring it back to it. five movies, and I'll be careful to mention that it's not the five movies. Five movies you think every camera operator should see. All right. Well, th this is these are personal movies of mine. I've sort of I I I sort of thought that I might better pick something with a little bit more educational sense of like what they can learn from it, but I will I will just run through these quickly. So the first one is the conversation. It's like so I I i you know, it's a slow burning movie. It's got a beautiful opening, three minute slow zoom. It tells you everything you need to know. You're not cutting away, it's just it's just narrowing down. And from that three minute opening, I remember like I was like, This is my f I don't care, this is my favorite movie. I mean I've got an aff I got a love for the seventies anyway, but and it's also, you know, it's a beautiful movie about paranoia and surveillance, but it's also about faith and a lot of other things and and it's a character study. You know, and I think that it's a very underst like I think I said earlier about understating. I'm not saying understating is like a no style, but it's it's so reserved and there's so much atmosphere in some of the scenes, and there's so much beautiful decisions and some of the imagery that and I and I I don't know whether it's Ford Coppler or I think it was Haskell Wexler who shot it. Was that there was two DPs on that movie? Am I right or wrong? Yeah, there were two DPs, I think, as I recall. I can't remember. And I don't know whether I think Haskell might have been one of them. Yeah. One of them. so that's that's one. The Shining, because I also need to like I need to weave Garrett into this somewhere. Garrett Blan. and and and I know and I know it wasn't technically the first. Study cam movie because it refined it, right? It was was it Bound for Glory? Was the first one. Bound for Glory. Yep. And then and then and then Rocky. And then a couple of years later, this movie, you know, obviously Kubrick tested Garrett to the point where he was redesigning the mob modes. And the thing about this movie is it's obviously a maze movie. It's a it's a psychological maze movie, but it it's it's to me like when the camera's floating. I remember this being one of the big movies that my my film tutor was talked about at film school because it's like an onion. Every time you watch it, you're peeling back another layer and it's it's so analyzed and it's so it's like a sleight of hand movie. You you see things and you kinda go, What what? and there's been so many documentaries made about it. But to me, like say for instance, if that camera's floating down that corridor behind him and a tricycle. To me it's not just a beautifully gliding shot. To me, it feels like I'm a ghost floating through this space. You know, it doesn't feel like it's showing off. It just feels very apt. And I think a lot of the movie is, you know, I love the movie particularly because it's it's it's a it's a daylight horror movie. It doesn't really there's a couple of night scenes, but yeah it's all about it's all about it's all about time and space that movie. And and I think that John Alton am I correcting it's John Alton? D P? I think so. who was I think the gaffer on two thousand and one, but he DP'd John Alton. Yeah, and he sh and he okay and he shot the other Kubrick movie. Anyway, so I'm off on a tangent, but it's a really great movie to study 'cause it's a really great film that you that it's clearly making great cho choices about time and space. Mm-hmm. and and it's slightly confusing but in a good way. So there's that. I could talk for hours about that movie because it is my favorite movie. I love it. This is great. another one is I'll talk briefly about this, but again, it's in the same mode as the conversation is the sacrifice, which is I you know, I got I've got a there's a time and a place for Tarkovsky, and it's generally in your own private living room when nobody's around. Because it's not it's not he's no, he's not a party director, you know what I mean? It's one that's kind of heavy, but listen, it's got a 10 minute opening. Dolly shot that is just beautiful and so understated, and and you and you and you kind of digest everything that's being said between these three characters, walk along this now this like no it's like a Norwegian landscape. And and then it's bookended by another beautiful, could be close to 10 minute shot of the house burning down and all the stuff that was happening around that. And I I read a story actually just before I came on from yesterday that. Apparently they shot the house scene and the and talking about tail out on a film, they tailed out. Or no no, the film jammed. So so the film jammed halfway through the house is burning down. my god Sven Nicefist, who shot it, insisted that they should probably get a backup camera next to it, just in case it happens. And I cut apparently Tarkovsky said, No, no, no, we'll be fine. And of course, lo and behold, it jams, the house burns down. And then after we They have to reshoot it. It's like one of those moments like, But but I think I I think Tarkovsky is like, yes art house, it's beautiful, it's slow. I mean he's famous for you know having the less almost like the less edits in any film put together, you know. Yeah. So the Shining Bow I did have one I mean the I love children of men. I I I l and I love it for it's it's like got a real purity to the photography and the camera operating. And there's a lot of really bold choices in it. You know, namely the shot in the car. There's some really beautiful stuff at Twilight. I mean the it just feels a re it feels like a really beautifully timed film. You know, it's like a w it's like a winter film, you know. And I love I mean, I used to say this like my my I have a love for autumn films and autumn films are like New York films in autumn, like ordinary people and you know, very, very simple character movies. But I like Children of Men because yes, it has these really intense wanners, particularly the one where there's the war zone going on and he's handheld to yeah. Yeah. it's incredible. It's incredible and it never feels like it's trying to like dazzle you. It's just like it's almost like it's almost like it's trying to hold on for. good life to kind of get the shots. It's like a documentary. Yeah. Yeah. And it go and it goes back to what I was saying about like the operating of that feels like the operating that I saw in like the Vietnam footage. Like it's it's it's it it knuckles down when it needs to. If if you get shot, you're gonna like you're gonna flinch. Mm-hmm. And that's totally fine. If you need to duck around and reframe, that's fine. You know, and it just feels like that it's that movie, but it I think it's the combination of that and the photography and the texture of the image. I something really simple about it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Agreed. It's it's awesome. That's fantastic. Yeah. and I had what did I put here? the tenant. So the the tenant is have you ever heard of the tenant? So it's it's it's it's a so it's like a based on a first person book like Catcher in the Rye. So you're you're in you're in the head of this character who is basically moving into this very old building and he's living in this attic apartment and just weird things start coming happening and it was Polansky after I believe it was after Chinatown Before something else he shot. And he stu he ended up like he ended up starring as the lead in it. Mm-hmm. and it's just I saw this a long time ago. It's a weird movie, but it's a it's a weird movie, but it's a really great and I I for forgive me. I i he hired an a European cinematographer. but there's something really I mean he he made it as a part of a trilogy, I think, you know, Repulsion being another movie and Rosemary's Baby. It's like that it's like being trapped in that building where like weird shit's happening. And when I was a film. Yes. Well, i there was a joke where when we come from England, because I got the most boring second name, Dennis, but I was like, if I put Dennis Deniski I might get more jobs as a European cinematographer. Yeah, exactly. There was that whole that whole time. no question. that's the yeah, the tenant I have not I've not gotten on the li list before, so I like that. Actually, I I'm sort of mentioned it hasn't been anybody's list either. Yeah. I mean I've sort of mentioned I mean, listen, I've got so many I mean one of them briefly on the list was Die Hard. I mean I think Die Hard is a spectral. I don't disagree with that. I think it's got some of the b it's also inverse hot action movie. Coverage and Yander Bond being Dutch did an apparently had loads of heated conversations on set with the director, but they they bond it was good heated. Like they wanted to get they were testing themselves. And if you watch that movie, A, it's brilliant at geography, like you never feel lost. And B, it's something really just believable about it, weirdly. Like it it's it's a there's a whole thing there's a whole thing in that movie with flares that's really interesting with light flares. He he uses light flares so well in that movie. And it's funny you say believable because I was having a discussion with the other day with someone about this because I have this thing where I decided when I'm on the treadmill I'm only watching like old guilty pleasure movies. Like I'm not watching anything new. So like I just finished watching Air Force One, which by the way, it's like I'm not gonna say it's a great movie, but it's a great movie to watch. There's no question. but diehard, there's the point where he where he ties he's on the top of the building and he ties himself with the with the hose and he jumps off the building and shoots the glass and goes through. It is the most preposterous thing in the world. And yet you're like, I can see how you could do that. Like that makes sense. Yeah, but yeah, and actually on that on that note and the same same note to this, like I just finished watching Speed. Speed speed is a really is real and what it made me think of actually, and Die Hard's in this speed is in this, ironically coming out now. Wiley Coyote versus Coyote versus Acme is this. I sort of miss these I sort of you do you know about this movie? I yeah, I I saw the trailer, yeah. But so I I sort of miss these movies where You could very easily say one line and you understand the whole movie. Yes. A bus a bus a city bus that if it goes below fifty five miles an hour will blow up. I know that I like that's all I need to know. It it's the old give it to me in fifteen words or less. And if you can do that then I got it. Most of the things that we see nowadays I don't think fit that mold. They're not that simple. You know? Yeah, so so yeah, that's why I was I was bringing up I mean I I mean Yeah. But like, you know, you could put like point break into that list as well, like as I watched on the treadmill. but you know, they're all these great movies and and they really they really are. And and from a storytelling point of view, like especially Die Hard, by the way. There's so much stuff that like early on just sort of gets passed by and then you realize it comes back in some major way and they've fed it to you without you knowing it. Yeah. Yes. It's great. And it's also a movie it's also a movie that could have starred who is it gonna be in it originally? old blue eyes. It was someone in someone who would have been horrible as I remember. I can't remember who it was. 'Cause it was it was based on a seventies book. detective or something and it was like it's not Clint Eastwood but it's somebody like that. Anyway. Was it Bert was it Bert Reynolds? It might have been Bert Reynolds or something like that. Yeah. There's some horrible, horrible thing. By the way, the other one that I just finished watching, which I think is actually on a different level than most of these, and this has gone sidetracked but I don't care. Is Witness. Like Witness is an absolute masterpiece. And it's a beautiful film. And the moment the moment where The kid is looking at the trophies and sees sees Danny Glover and Harrison for he points. It's like you get shells. I it's incredible it's incredible. Anyway, but yeah. no, that's a that's a that's a great list. I I I love We obviously need a second podcast just to just to talk about great movies. Yeah, I actually I actually you know, there are so many other great podcasts about movies, but you know what well, well, Simon, this has just been fantastic as I expected it would be. because I enjoy talking to you and you have such a love for film. Like I said, working with you on set is so much fun just because you're so excited about it. You know what I you know what I remember by the way, is like when we were in the Hollywood, we would set up some shot and you would go, you know what that this is like you know, this is like Unxian Andalu or some, you know, some like some like a crazy movie or whatever. And I always go, really, because I'm feeling more it's like it's like Beethoven's third, the one about the dog. Yes. He'd look at me like, who the hell is this guy? Can I actually just can I add to that story? Because that that that's that's a really fun. So so so on Versace, I would find myself kind of walking up to Andrew Mitchell and kind of whispering in my ear, I'd just say, This is like that scene in CS a game. And he just and or it's that like this is that like that scene in you know some random movie. Yeah. And he and he turned to me. With all genu like he just genuinely was like, Okay, yeah, I can do that. And then at the end of the shoot on the wrap, he confessed to me that he didn't know any of the references. And he just did the shot. And I thought that was so beautiful of him. He But listen, if it was a Pixar movie, I'd be I'd be there in a second. I know Pixar movies. I love Because of my kids. If anybody's listening, go back and listen to Andrew Mitchell's podcast because he's just fantastic. But that's hilarious. But the funny thing about that is It that's interesting that you say that because so then what Andrew did was he went, I'm gonna tell the story I'm gonna do my job, which is to tell the story well and do an interesting shot that we've set up or whatever. And that you you having having the the background in film that you have sort of infuse that with those things that you see from other films because that's what you're s you know, that's what you're pointing out. But so it's interesting to me. No, yeah, exactly. And I don't think it's like giving them direction. I I think if they take it, but I think It's like a little Easter egg for me. Like I know that was a reference to that movie. I know I've ticked off most of my movies. If I mean Raiser Lost Ark is one of my favourite movies and I managed to tick off at least six shots in that movie secretly on another T V show. And you just and it's just like you that's what gets you up in the morning. It's like I mean, I don't if you're gonna steal, steal. Like I I but I don't like I don't like leaning too heavily into things. I don't like too many references. I like to know that you can still bring your own DNA to a a story and sure and and and and but on on the other hand if you've seen something and it works great it works and if it tells your story better then then I don't think it's I think it's an homage. I don't think it's definitely a I mean I I mean I I remember like when when Lawrence set up Shot Deck, right, a couple of years ago, which is like the database, you know, and and it's all four K imagery. And I was like, God, bad time because I didn't know, back then you had to Google references. And I remember I remember on one of the sets we were working with, we were doing a scene and it reminded me for some reason of Science of the Lambs. because there was a female character surrounded by this team of FBIs and she looked tiny. And I was like, kinda remind me of the and I remembered R R Ryan looking at the shot and he raised the phone up to everyone and says, Everyone, this is the next setup. And he just said and he and he and he he didn't say thank you because it Ryan just knows what he's doing. But yeah, yeah and and I and and somehow you you you can these little things pop in your head, you don't know why. No And I mean the the other thing that I always fall back on is sometimes people go like, Well, you know, the ripping off and this and that and the other. It's like, I'm sorry, but every sing that shot in Silence of the Lambs is somehow a rip off from some it's from some artist from from from the fifteen hundreds or sixteen hundreds. It'll be from a Jacques Jacques Tati movie. You what I mean? It's exactly from yeah, from from exactly from Playground or something like that. So like it's all been done before. so you know, I think paying homage to those things is is fantastic. But it it really for exactly the reason that we just segue, it's always a pleasure to talk to you and I hope we get to do it on set sometime soon. but I'm gonna leave you with the question that I leave everybody with, and you can take us out. advice for someone getting into the business today on how to succeed andor something you've learned along the way that you wish you knew a lot sooner. okay, so the world is very different than when I I I'm kind of more old school and kind of new school. So I was straddling film school and the old days where you'd mail your your real your reel in a in the post, you know. To I think there's there's so many opportunities for people to kind of get seen. I just think be true to yourself about what where be wary about where you want to go and just know who you are and and kind of picture yourself in five, six years time. 'Cause it will probably take that for you to A, learn something and B, really discover who you are and what your tastes are because you can't read that in a book and you can't you can't find it from a conversation with a friend. You gotta it's like soul searching. And I and I said earlier about discipline. Discipline's a really good thing. T just saying no to something is actually a really great thing as it's just as powerful as saying yes. And I think, you know, get with your friends, hang out, you know, shoot shoot some experimental stuff, shoot some arthouse stuff, shoot some commercial stuff, whatever you want to do. you know, there's so much you can harness these days, but I think before you harness anything, any equipment, know who you are. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.