Dave C: This podcast was originally recorded in November of 2023. Enjoy. Hey everybody, Danny Brown here, creator of the Knucklepuck, and we at Knucklepuck Camera are proud supporters of this episode of The OP. The Knucklepuck is a camera accessory loved by operators and camera assistants alike that allows the operator to pan and tilt with precision and ease. Check it out at KnucklepuckCamera.com and make sure to follow us on Instagram at KnucklepuckCamera. On today's episode, we'll talk about learning steady cam from Larry McConkie, Eat Pray, Love. The Born Supremacy, Wes Anderson's secret weapon, and of course, defying the laws of physics. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website, theop.io, is up and shock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling. The blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Block it up nice and quiet and let's roll. Victor 30 Echo TikTok. Hey Mark, Mark. Camera set. Hello everybody and welcome back to the OP. Podcast, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. My name is Dave Kamitis. I'm your host and ⁓ I'm I I can't tell you how excited I am today to have ⁓ our guest today, ⁓ Sanjay Samy, who is a key grip, dolly grip, steady cam operator, hyphen it. ⁓ he's done kind of anything. Basically, if you're doing a massive movie and probably even a small movie in It seems like anywhere else but like North or South America or maybe Antarctica. ⁓ you maybe tell me I'm wrong about that, Sanjay. he's the guy that you get. ⁓ some of the movies, his the list of movies that he's done is just it's it's unbelievable. But ⁓ Asteroid City, French dispatch ⁓ dispatch, tenant, sensei, silence, life of pie, born supremacy. ⁓ he's for the last nineteen years been basically attached at the hip ⁓ to Wes Anderson on on pretty much everything that he has done with the exception of ⁓ the animated movies. ⁓ he is, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the only key grip I've ever known that had a full New York Times article done about him about being ⁓ a a director's ⁓ secret weapon. ⁓ a really cool guy who has done some amazing work. And anytime I'll tell you, Sanjay, anytime I mention your name to someone, they go, ⁓ my gosh, Sanjay. Yeah. So ⁓ so thank you for being here. It's so cool to have you ⁓ on the podcast. ⁓ it's a pleasure, Dave. Thanks for having me. This is great. And actually this is exciting because like you and I have have over the internet we've like, you know, emailed back and forth or whatever, or this or that, but we only met what like once for two hours on Moonrise Kingdom or something. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. I I remember I came out, I I did one shot that took like an hour and a half and I left and it was like, okay. I don't even think I met West Yeah. So tell tell me how so you ⁓ by the way, I should mention I didn't mention ⁓ Sanjay is in Mumbai and we're over the internet, so ⁓ that's what's making this possible. But ⁓ and the only reason I think I'm able to talk to you probably is because the film industry seems to have shut down because I'm sure otherwise you'd be working like crazy on some Scorsese movie or something like that. ⁓ no way, okay. Does he do a lot of commercials? ⁓ Not a lot, but he does the occasional commercial, maybe one ⁓ one a year or or you know, something like that. And if I saw it, would I would not knowing it, would I go, that looks like a Wes Anderson frame. You would? Okay. All right. I'm gonna have to look up. I don't know. I you know, actually the funny thing is, you know, streaming and whatever, I don't I don't know the last time I saw a commercial actually, so I'll have to Google them and and I'll link them in the podcast. But ⁓ I'll have to ask you what. So so Sanji, tell me tell me how did you become the New York Times favorite key grip. ⁓ I have no idea. What's your story? Well as you get into this. Well when I was in ⁓ when I was finishing college I ⁓ I started working as a diver, as a ⁓ you know commercial diver. I trained as a commercial diver. ⁓ an oil rig diver basically. And ⁓ so that was I I started off as a as a surface supplied air diver, mainly working for the oil industry. as an underwater pipeline maintenance and that kind of stuff, you know? So I was a commercial diver and ⁓ what I was always planning to do was to find something else to do because you can't really ⁓ you can't you can't be a saturation diver for very long. So the the common wisdom is do it for five years, make money and then get out and find something else to do. So what's a s what's a saturation diver? Does that have to do with like you mean like nitrogen and all that stuff? Like Yeah, it's it's basically ⁓ you when you work it ⁓ at great depths, you ⁓ you don't want to come back up to the surface every day because ⁓ it's a lot of strain going through the decompression. So ⁓ you get compressed once and then you stay in a chamber for the duration of your work, ⁓ say a month, and then and then you you dive every day, you go back into the chamber, then you come out at the end of it, you decompress and come out ⁓ after a month. So It's unbelievable. It's it's a little bit of a change from the film business. But ⁓ Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little bit. But yeah, so I ⁓ I was always looking for an alternative career as well. So the film industry we had a we had a ⁓ had a marine, strangely enough, a marine contractor strike while while I was working in in the as a diver and ⁓ that gave me the chance to kind of explore other stuff and a friend of mine was working on set and ⁓ so why didn't you come and try this out. So I initially worked in construction and ⁓ you know v very I I kind of put my hand you track my hand at various different things. And ⁓ since I had never formally learnt anything about the film industry, I kind of ⁓ made my own rules a little bit ⁓ about the way I approached everything. And ⁓ I think in some ways I still keep doing that, you know? I'd say so. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So do you remember do you remember what those early movies were? Were they like were they Indian movies or were they movies that were coming from the States or No i initially it was ⁓ I worked mainly on commercials. I did ⁓ because it was ⁓ it was all ⁓ you know, one day here, three days here, four days here, bits and pieces. And ⁓ and then slowly I got more and more entrenched and I started working on movies only ⁓ towards the late nineties. I started I started working in the business in the early nineties. I think ninety two was my first year. And then my I started working on movies in the in the later nineties. And were you gripping at that time yet? Or were Yes, by by then I was gripping, yeah. I it was just like a third hammer on the crew or or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All kinds of ⁓ you know, stuff. Yeah. It was ⁓ in in India it's a very loose kind of ⁓ descrip i in those days it was very loose. If you went onto a onto a set you could do pretty much any job you wanted to. You know, really? Okay. Yeah, you could assist anyone in any department and ⁓ there were it wasn't it wasn't ⁓ i apart from heads of department it wasn't very clearly delineated, you know. So I could I could have Like if I was doing a a T V series, for example, with a multi camera setup, I could I could be working in construction during pre production and ⁓ wind up operating a camera on the actual shoot day. That's wild. Do they just grab whoever's like closest to the camera and they go, You're doing this? Yeah, you know, they'll they'll they'll give you a shot and ⁓ it's very low stakes, you know, so they'll give you a shot and see see how you do and if you're doing ⁓ good then you get called back. If you're not doing good you put You you get kicked out, you know. That's pretty that's pretty cool actually. So so let me ask you a question because ⁓ as as as has the Sanjay Sami that I know now, ⁓ and we'll get into this obviously, like you're the type of person who looks at something that seems impossible and tends to figure out a way to make it work. So was that something that in your mind back then you were looking at what was being done and thinking, ⁓ that could be done better. I know how yeah I could figure that out or all the time. I I always thought e even even today, ⁓ You know, I c I built my own rigging equipment. I have my own workshop and because I'm a train I I used to be a welder, underwater welder. And ⁓ I I also ⁓ I'm I'm ⁓ I'm a machinist as well. So I I I the one thing that I always had ⁓ ideas for was rigging. I always felt like the stuff that you could buy off the shelf, you know, from all the companies that ⁓ you know, ⁓ that were selling rigging equipment was very badly thought out. So I started building my own rigging equipment and ⁓ and you know, I always felt like there's a there's a there's probably a faster way to do this, there's a there's an easier way to do this, there's a stronger way to do this and ye and some s I I always come up with something and then sometimes it wouldn't really work. And then ⁓ and I'd ⁓ you know, or it would work but it was so complicated. I thought it was simple and it would be complicated. But sometimes I'd come up with ideas You know, I c the rigging system that I use today for cameras is a system I I basically came up with about ⁓ twenty years ago and I still ⁓ I still use it. I've I I have had an idea to change it now, but I haven't had the time to sit in my workshop. But now I think I'm gonna have some time now. So I have the time. Yeah. Yeah. So so ⁓ let me ask you a question. B b for what you just said about like, you know, looking at things and thinking I mean, in all honesty, ⁓ I ⁓ and I hope you take this the way I mean it. ⁓ it reminds me of Garrett Brown who invented the Steady Cam in a number of ways. Number one, because Garrett invented the Steady Cam, what, fifty years ago now or something like that? And it still essentially works exactly the same way. It's like proof of concept. But the other thing is he's he's the type of person who I mean, just last night we were we were I was at a steady cam class and and he zoomed in. And in the middle of talking, he went, excuse me, one second, and he wrote something down. And it's just I know, I know for a fact he just he suddenly cracked the code on something that he was trying to figure out or whatever. And he's trying to constantly look at things and going, there has to be a better way to do that. Like I can I can improve on that, you know? So ⁓ that that sort of makes me think of that. But the question I was gonna ask you was when you were first starting out, was it tough to hold back and not say something to the people who were much higher up than you about What could be better, or did you get into trouble with that or Yeah, I d I did get into trouble a few times because I didn't ⁓ not being from the film industry, I didn't understand the the protocol of ⁓ people don't really always appreciate some random guy coming up and telling them that there's a you know, that they know a better way to do it because ⁓ and now I I I I understand it now, but I quickly understood it then as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get it pretty quickly, right? Yeah. It didn't take long for me to get ⁓ schooled on the on the on the correct ⁓ etiquette on set. Yeah, but you also mentioned, you know, something about the fact you ⁓ you said something about the the the rigging that you made that didn't work. And that's that's such a big part of getting to where you finally are, right? Is like you you you failing is actually almost as important as succeeding because it it pushes you forward, right? Yeah, I think I think it's ⁓ I think failing's really important and I think ⁓ ⁓ what what I always say is that what experience teaches you and what what really when you're on set and you're one of the experienced people on set, especially the key grip or or as a camera operator, as a as a DP or as a gaffer, ⁓ what they're paying for really is your ability to know what doesn't work. It's as it's as important as knowing what does work. Because sometimes someone comes up with a method and you know straight away that this is not gonna work and you don't want to waste six hours rigging something that's not on on the day is not is not gonna work at all. You're not gonna get the shot the way the director imagined it or the ⁓ s or the cinematographer imagined it, you know? So ⁓ I think I think part of what you get paid for really is your ability to know what doesn't work. I it's as important as what does work. That is such a that's such a great lesson, actually. It's that's so Yeah, because because All those failures, right? If the failures teach you nothing, then they're just failures. But they're successes if you if you put put ⁓ in your back pocket and you go, Okay, well, I'm never doing that again. And so you don't go down down that road. There's no question. ⁓ that that's that's fantastic. So so how long did you did you sort of stay a regular, you know, hammer what on on the group crew before you moved up to King or or Dolly Group? Well, so so I started I started ⁓ on the Dali in about nine around ⁓ ninety seven, ninety eight. And ⁓ and then by nineteen nine I was ⁓ ninety nine, two thousand I was ⁓ king. Yeah. Wow. And how old were you at that point? ⁓ let me calculate I I guess ⁓ thirty ⁓ was born yeah, so ⁓ yeah, about thirty Yeah, the early thirties, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So and and in India does the key grip generally push the dolly? Is that is that a normal thing or is that just ⁓ no, not always. It depends on the kind of ⁓ on on the kind of movie. But ⁓ for me it was always the part I loved the best. So ⁓ I was that what what aspect of it of it? I I love I love ⁓ I love moving the camera. I love ⁓ I love the fact that you you're entrusted with moving the eyes of the viewer, you know? ⁓ i it's a great responsibility because it's ⁓ it's a it's a very powerful storytelling tool and you ⁓ you have the you know stillness tells one story a very slow s ⁓ move tells another story ⁓ moving across foreground gives you something completely different you know a stop it's all it's it's it's all punctuation in the grammar of ⁓ of telling ⁓ you know it's ⁓ it's a full stop, it's a comma, it's an e exclamation mark. All of these things are are are such a huge part of the storytelling process. So I feel like ⁓ like I get entrusted to be able to tell the to to take the viewers' eyes and move them move them through our story, you know. So I've always loved doing that. ⁓ it's such a beautiful way to describe it. It's it's and it's absolutely right. ⁓ there there's nothing like it because ⁓ it's I mean, I I've always said and a lot of people agree with me, I'm sure you would too. I think the Dolly grip should be part of the camera crew. They should be in the camera local. I mean nothing gets the grip local, but it's like what they're doing is is camera movement just as much. I mean, clearly they're doing camera movement, but yeah, I mean it it's it's yeah, it it is. It it is I think the operator and and dolly grip together, it's it's two parts of the same story, you know. It's it's just ⁓ it's two it's two hands Because the the the Duly grip is moving the operator through space, you know. If he if he if he's not if he's not in the right place at the right time or you know it doesn't move, he needs to feel the story as much as the operator does. There's so much to the idea that clearly you have to know how to move from A to B. But the big thing that that to me makes a great dolly grip is that they know why they're moving from A to B. They understand the story. And like you were telling, they understand the punctuation and and and everything. That's that's fantastic. So so did did did that sort of what you learned as a dolly grip make you go, ⁓ I want to be a steady cam operator and be completely in control of moving and and panning and tilting and everything? Yeah, well so a interesting story. Steady cam was i in India at ⁓ in the n and late nineties was ⁓ nobody's child it wasn't in any union it wasn't in the camera union or the grip union and ⁓ so we there weren't very many many steady cam operators so ⁓ when when I did start doing it it wasn't really officially in the camera union or the grip union but I just felt it was another tool to move the camera and to ⁓ to be able to you know it's it's a very liberating storytelling tool. So ⁓ I decided to to I took it up a little bit by accident. I I bought someone's ⁓ rig because it was ⁓ it was for sale and then I ⁓ I operated very badly for a few years until I actually ⁓ actually figured it out. That's great. What what what model did you buy? Do you know? It was a three A. It was a three A. So it was already like an established study cam. It was Yes, yeah, yeah. But it was it was a little bit I bought it secondhand from an Indian ⁓ operator in the South and ⁓ there were only about three or four rings in India at that time and he was selling his rig and ⁓ it was ⁓ the arm ⁓ he had he had done a lot of modifications to it himself. I think he had bought some parts he had bought some parts himself and ⁓ and I think his vest was almost entirely homemade and I had to modify I was a I was a I was a lot bigger than him, so I had to modify it quite a lot to get it to fit me. But it's awesome. I love it. Yeah, but in the end it was ⁓ you know, I was I I got it I got it to work, but my operating was ⁓ horrendous. But in those days, horrendous operating was still considered quite good, you know. So ⁓ That was a great time to get into study camp because people were like, You showed up and you have the equipment. This is great. It was the same year like I used to do these these horrible rap music videos and everyone was just like, Great, you're here. And they didn't and that was the end of it. It's like you know how to put it on and it was a great time to learn. But I think it for people listening now. It's important to point out that when you started Steady Cam, there was no internet. So you couldn't look up how to how to operate. There were no tutorials. There was there was maybe by then the SteadyCam operators handbook if you could find it somewhere. No, no, no. We I hadn't even heard of any of this. There you go. And and and ⁓ and and and equipment, you couldn't like go on the internet and purchase something from Amazon and have I mean there would It it was just what you found or what you made or whatever. So you were really like out there in the wilderness figuring out. No, I I was really lucky because in two thousand I did a ⁓ b I I was lucky in this that I was also a key grip. So I I happened to and I was working on the international job. So I would I would meet steady cam operators, you know, ⁓ real real steady cam operators. and then I'd get ⁓ I'd ⁓ you know, I'd just pump them for information. So I did a job with ⁓ Jeff Mart. And ⁓ you know, we were we were this was in two thousand or two thousand and one, I think. And ⁓ we were ⁓ he he didn't have very much study cam work, so he mostly unemployed really, you know, but he was on set. So any chance I got I'd catch him and ⁓ you know get him to ⁓ get him to teach me. And ⁓ what a great guy to have teach you because Yeah, absolutely. And and and you won't believe it. A few years later, ⁓ I had the same thing with Larry McConkie. I was in another movie with I was in another movie with Larry and ⁓ then I had Larry, you know, who ⁓ who took the time to help me out as well. So I had these two great guys who ⁓ kind of were like, you know, who ⁓ very kindly mentored me on ⁓ you know, on the techniques and, you know, just corrected the way I was standing, the way all of these things that I didn't really ⁓ you know, even the fine tuning of the balance of it and you know, just understanding a little bit about it and ⁓ it it certainly ⁓ you know, to get a month with Larry McConkey or two months with Larry McConkie, I mean there there'd be people who'd sell their house for that, you know? There's no question about it. So would you remember what movie that was with Larry? Yeah. With Larry it was Eat, Pray and Love. That was ⁓ that w that was later. It was in two thousand and eight, I think it was. And ⁓ that was Ryan Murphy d Ryan Murphy directed that. That's right, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was I was I was a key grip and ⁓ and ⁓ ⁓ Larry was the ⁓ B camera, Steady Cam. ⁓ Bob Richardson was on A camera. So that's incredible. Well you know, it brings up something and again I'll just I'll just go back to the fact that I'm helping teach this ⁓ Steady Cam Operators Association workshop this week. We were talking about this yesterday, is I don't know many other ⁓ careers where there's a especially back then. There's a small group of people who know how to do what they do and it's and it's a lucrative career and it's a sought after career, whatever, who absolutely want to share what they know and give it to someone else and in in the h in the hopes that whoever's they're gonna teach is just gonna make us that much better and figure out the next thing. It's kind of amazing. And just the fact that these guys would come out and and meet you and go, Yeah, I'm sure I'll I'll show you everything I know. I'll answer your questions. I love that. It's that's what makes it's one of the things I love about study cam operators. It's just ⁓ everybody just wants to make it better. You know, ⁓ that's really cool. That's really cool. So did you ever did you ever take a for like go and take a formal course anywhere or or just did you ⁓ you know, glean from people you met? No, I d I I I basically learned from ⁓ the people I met, but I did do a workshop with ⁓ with and ⁓ Garrett was actually at the workshop. ⁓ so that's for me that was the highlight of it really was to physically to meet Garrett and you know, be able to speak to him and you know, his stories ⁓ ⁓ just ⁓ amazing. I mean he's It's unbelievable. And and it it's not just his stories, it's his his ability to tell them as well, you know? It's it well, and it's it it's again, I keep going back to this, but just last night he zoomed in and talked for like an hour and a half. And what you realize is and ⁓ I we should say this is Garrett Brown, the inventor of the steady cam, as many wells I think he has he told me he has like a hundred and twenty-three patents or something like that. He's invented so many things, it's ridiculous. He's a genius. But but he is, but but he also He has he has a way of thinking about camera movement that you know, yesterday he was he was breaking down like the the the way the optic nerve looks at motion. I mean it's just he he has thought about it more than most people have ever done it, you know? ⁓ and it's it's really that's that's really cool. That's that's that's a that's a that's a great thing to be a part of right there. Yeah, that's very cool. So at what point did you become sort of the go to key grip, if I can say that, for ⁓ people coming coming to ⁓ Europe and and coming to Asia and whatnot? Well, I mean, I I I honestly don't know. I couldn't answer that question, but I think it was ⁓ I think it just became word of mouth because ⁓ I think in ⁓ many ways I was ⁓ you know I had I had such a wide area of expertise, ⁓ you know well, maybe not expertise, but You know, Jack of all trades. I have ⁓ you know I I I always believe and I tell my kids this as well. learn as much as you can about everything. Because ⁓ everything crosses over. You know, when you ⁓ when you know how to ⁓ when you know how how to fix a car. ⁓ that knowledge will help you in the most unexpected way somewhere else. Not necessarily to fix the car, but it all works together. Yeah. So the the broader your base of knowledge and the broader your base of experience, ⁓ the better you you'll always find, ⁓ okay, that worked for that. I think some some of this will will work here, you know? And ⁓ and I always ⁓ you know it's often when I'm I'm watching YouTube, I'll watch You know, like Japanese carpenters, or I watch ⁓ you know, an Australian Australian guy who repairs ⁓ you know ⁓ huge ⁓ mining hydraulics equipment and mines and you know, ⁓ it's just ⁓ I I I find it fascinating ⁓ to to wrap my head around the way they think and the way they problem solve because everyone, whether it's a guy who's making ⁓ a kind of ⁓ a very ornate wooden ⁓ partition. inside a room or a guy who's repairing ⁓ you know ⁓ excavator bucket in the middle of the Australian outpack. How how each person ⁓ approaches a problem and solves it, I always find fascinating, you know? That's amazing. Well but it's just like look you clearly have a thirst for knowledge and you just realize I don't know when this is gonna help me, but you know, well th they're used to I I guess it's still around. Have you ever seen this ⁓ I don't know what it was on, like life no, I don't ⁓ it was a history channel. I don't know what it was. But there's a there's a thing called how it's made. Have you ever seen that? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess yeah, it's just literally like here's how they make baseballs and it'll be fifteen minutes of looking at the the machinery. And and every I I had to actually after a while stop looking at them because I'd realized I'd start and I'd it like two hours would pass and I'd be like Yeah, I just get sucked in because it's fascinating and and just and and a lot of times the thing that I always found was It was really cool because you'd see it and you go, ⁓ well, of course that's how it's done, but you just had never thought of it before. And then sometimes obviously you're surprised. But ⁓ that's a that's really cool. And I would imagine that that at a certain point, whenever you got to that point, that because the big shows that are coming are going, Well, it let's get Sanjay 'cause 'cause of his history and what I've heard about him and whatever, that you're then learning from some of the best people, the best filmmakers out there, right? I mean it's like these are coming to your door. And I I'll tell you something, I also had the opportunity because ⁓ you know, sometimes a big show would come to India and then they'd they'd already have a key grip that was coming in from the US with them. And ⁓ and I would then for me that was a real treat because then I'd get to ⁓ be a local key grip to ⁓ another key grip and then you know, where do you get a chance to learn like that? You know, you get ⁓ you get the opportunity to ⁓ you know, so for me. One of the highlights of my career really was ⁓ was working with Herb Auld. And you know, he he was a guy who was not just great at what he did, but he was also one of the most ⁓ generous people with his ⁓ you know, with his knowledge and with his ⁓ you know, I I also learnt a lot about how to conduct yourself on set from him. 'Cause he was a he was a real gentleman, you know, I never I never yeah you know, he he handled himself with so much grace. And I always felt like ⁓ you know, very early in my career I was ⁓ you know, there was a DP, an old very who I s I'm still friends with. He's r retired many years ago. But we meet sometimes for a beer and ⁓ just to hang out. And when I was filming in in London, ⁓ he lives in Belgium and he ⁓ he took the train across to London and we had ⁓ We went out for a meal and ⁓ and we were sitting in the evening and having a drink. And he said, ⁓ and I told him, I said, you know, so many years ago, one of the most important things that has always stuck with me, you told me, and it was ⁓ always remember that there's someone else who can do your job who isn't an asshole. So So that's that's perfect. Yeah, so ⁓ don't don't be an asshole because that's that's so great. That's that by the way, that's like it that's like the wisest words you can give anybody. ⁓ that's that's absolutely true. That's great. That's fantastic. So ⁓ so ⁓ at a ⁓ at a point did you did you ever sort of go, I'm only gonna be a steady camera, I'm not gonna grip anymore. Or did I mean was that ever a thought or was it just sort of another tool that you had? No, just another tool. ⁓ for me for me the the overall picture of camera movement was was ⁓ was you know the the ⁓ I I love being a grip. To me that's ⁓ fundamentally if I had to define who I was I would say I'm a grip. That's great. And so when so let me ask you when when when these movies would come over, yeah, they would have a camera operator. It sounds like some sometimes like Bob Richardson, I'm assuming he's camera operating himself. Yeah. ⁓ I w what do you think when when you get when you meet someone, you know, new, a camera operator who's n you know new to you, ⁓ and and the first time you've worked with them, ⁓ what's that is there like a breaking in period? Are you sort of like trying to figure out how do you figure out what they need from you and what you can do for them? And so so as a as a dolly grip, and now I'm gonna talk as a dolly grip and not as a key grip, but ⁓ as a dolly grip, essentially what I do is I would always try to figure out how the how the ⁓ operator likes to work. And ⁓ so often I'd say, you know, ⁓ I'd I'd say, How do you want to do this? And the a good operator would s usually say, Why don't you feel it out, you know? And ⁓ and you if you if you trust your Dali grip, let him show you something to begin with. And I think a good way to start is is ⁓ you look at a rehearsal, you look at the the actor's block, ⁓ you know, you know where they're gonna be for lighting or whatever. And then ⁓ and then you you do a rehearsal and for the rehearsal, you should you you show the ⁓ the operator something. You know, you you take him through the move. And then from there you can correct each other and ⁓ say, okay, you know, maybe I need to be here a little bit. I want to rake over this person to see that or that thing in the background is really important to see. at this point so we need to be over here. So I think I I think a good way to to to kind of feel it out is to ⁓ is to do the i i is to i each one do it instinctively and then from there you can you can start finessing how it goes, you know? And so when you're doing that as the dolly grip, that first let's say that first rehearsal, right? Yep. Are you sort of making mental notes of ⁓ he didn't seem to notice that. So I'll probably keep an eye and make sure we know about that. But ⁓ he's he's very specific about this, so I'll pull back here and let him him make sure he has you know, are you trying to are you sort of figuring out what you what you should do par how how much you should push and how much you should pull, if you will. Yes, exactly. And also, you know, you i initially you have to also you have to when you when you don't know the person that you're about to work with, ⁓ you have to also ⁓ respect the fact that there may be egos involved and ⁓ there's a lot of ⁓ you know there's a lot of ⁓ diplomacy involved in ⁓ in taking forward you can't exert your will on ⁓ on the per so so how you make a suggestion becomes important how until until you develop a mutual trust with each other, you know? And once the once it gets once that gets established, ⁓ it makes everything so much easier. Yeah. So now let me ask you another scenario. I come in And I'm a brand new operator. I I I'm the son of the I'm the son of the DP who he's gone. He you're gonna be an operator on this eighty million dollar movie and I'm in way above my head. And I ⁓ I know I'm I know I'm coming out to Germany or wherever and that you know, Sanjay Sami is gonna be the key grip and the dolly grip. And so of course I look him up and I realize, ⁓ my God, this guy's been working forever on huge things and totally knows what he does. what's w what do I do I come in and just go, Sanjay, what do we do? Or do do I throw you my idea and then go, is do you think that's right? What do you ha you know, i how do I how do I still be the operator, even though I don't know how to be the operator yet, with someone like you behind the dolly? Well so so there's there's so many political things at play here. The first is yeah. The first is your your dad's my boss. So That's true. Okay. Let's take that out of it. Let's say let's let's say it's not that. I just I lucked into it. So so what I would I mean, for sure what I'd do is sit with the operator and say, look, how how do you want to go about this? You know, because ⁓ you are the operator and ⁓ we need to work together on this. So why don't you give me your ideas and I'll give you mine and we'll work we'll work something out. And usually I'll do what I think works and ⁓ and then let him respond to it. And often if in my experience when you have an inexperienced operator, the DP will be coming in and talking to me as well. Yeah. So ⁓ it at the same time I don't want to bypass the operator because it can lead to a sticky situation. But ⁓ but yeah usually in many cases ⁓ i in some in some c some cases like ⁓ like for example ⁓ directors who I worked with a lot, the director will come in and ⁓ and talk to me directly and ⁓ you know in fact ⁓ you know, I'll I'll have I'll have short breakdowns before almost anyone else does because we have a lot like with Wes Anderson, because we have lots of complicated stuff that has to be figured out ⁓ quite far in advance, you know? Yeah. So I I wanna I I I'm I'm chomping at the bit to ask you about Wes Anderson, but I wanna ask you one question along those lines first. Have you had a situation and you don't have to tell me who it is if you have, but have you had a situation where you had a less experienced operator? Who did not want to listen to you? And if so, how how do how do you deal with that? Well, you know, ⁓ the way I look at it is I can only there's only so much I can do. So I have had that on several occasions on on ⁓ well not several, but at least on on on three big films I've had it. And and ⁓ you know I make my suggestion and ⁓ I'm I hope you usually what happens is ⁓ the way it works is there's a little bit of politics involved in w this that they don't want to be ⁓ shown up. They don't want ⁓ they don't want it to look like ⁓ the grip knows more than they do. So you know it ⁓ un it's unfortunate because ⁓ it's just a matter of experience and how many how many ⁓ years and how many films I've done ⁓ versus them, but it it does happen. And in that case what I generally do is I try and stay out of the conflict area with them and I just ask them how they want to do it. And ⁓ and I do I do make suggestions because sometimes I know it's not going to work their way. And I know that if we try and do it their way, it's going to waste a lot of time and and then everyone's going to look bad particularly them. You know, so ⁓ I try and ⁓ you know I I still owe it to the producer and to the DP and to the director ⁓ who brought me in there for a reason to To not ⁓ allow that to happen. But as far as possible, if if I know it's it's still gonna work out okay, I will not ⁓ I'll I'll try and let them let them have it. Or or you can suggest things in a way that may makes it look like it's their idea. You know, and ⁓ that's another way. I mean the the master of that really is Larry McConkie. How so? He well, you know, he can he's ⁓ he's he i if you watch him on set for ⁓ he he can you know, especially when you're working with ⁓ with ⁓ big egos and you know ⁓ fiery DPs and I'm not gonna take any names but ⁓ but I'm sure you can fill in the blanks. But but ⁓ you know ⁓ he ⁓ he will suggest a way to do the shot and ⁓ in a way that's that's so unoffensive and it'll be it'll be ⁓ you know it'll be phrased in a way That makes everyone look like it was their idea. It all comes from Larry. He's his he's a master of choreography. And he will ⁓ but he'll make all of it look like it was someone else's idea and he'll even pat them and say, That was after he after he's done the shot, that was a great idea you came up with, but it was all from Larry. And I love watching him on set because you can learn I mean, anyone who gets a chance to work with Larry McConkie should just take it, you know. Even if even if you don't get paid for it, just go and just go to watch watch him at work, you know. ⁓ I there should be there should be like admission tickets to where you can just do that. By the way, ⁓ on the website at the op dot IO, I'm doing, you know, these things. I mentioned these the breakdown. And ⁓ Larry and I are doing probably one every two to three weeks for one of his shots. So the first one we did was Carlito's Way. I don't know if you've seen it, but it and it actually has the video tap in there and you can hear him cueing and whatever. But I will tell you this, because you you mentioned this and it fits in nicely. ⁓ I don't know what movie it was, but Larry did did a ton of movies with Jack Nicholson. And apparently they had a very good relationship, but it was a very sort of like they they they purposely butted heads and they had fun doing it, you know, and whatever. And and ⁓ and and and it sounds like from what Larry mentioned is that Jack understood how hard the things that Larry was doing was, but he he he liked having fun making them harder sometimes just because that was their relationship. So he said there was some movie and it was a it was a you know, a a thin hallway and Larry had to, you know, do a a move around Jack. And he went over and he said, Hey Jack, when you come when you come to this point, can you lean to the right so I can have room to get around you? And he said, Jack leaned into him and he goes, Larry, I'm acting here. Don't mess with me. And so Larry and Larry stands there and he just goes and he's standing there and just looking around and he's not doing anything, but apparently he's like looking around in in sort of a very, you know, large gesturing kind of way. And finally the AD goes What what's the problem? And Larry goes, Well, I you know, the hallway's only this big and I'm this big and Jack's there and I'm just not and he just put and he just let it trail off. And Jack looked at him and he goes, Hey Larry, what if I get out of the way over here? And Larry goes, ⁓ that's that's a genius. That could you do that would be great. But you know, it's again, I mean, I think they were having fun with each other and that's where it went. But it it's like you said, he's he is the master of sort of, you know. lobbing a thought out there and letting it be someone else's thought or or absolutely how to do that. You have to be a chameleon like that, right? I mean that's Yeah, and and you have to you have to understand the the the politics and egos of the film business. There's no question. ⁓ there's a there's a really amazing ⁓ director, producer, showrunner that I work with named Chris Chulak, who has a ⁓ a saying ⁓ that's the star of the movie is the movie. Yeah. Yeah. Which is basically I don't care how you make this work, it just has to work. So if you have to sort of like make it feel like someone else's idea, that's great. ⁓ yeah. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. I mean we're we're all we're all there to service one vision. Exactly. Hopefully. That's that's what we should be. ⁓ and ⁓ but I think going back to to my question that I had to you about working with someone like you with I think the the key to to the the I just wanna Punctuate for younger operators, which I wish I knew, and I think I suspected, but I didn't know how to do it at the time because I started out very young. Is is use all the people around you. Because the truth of the matter is, with with minor exceptions, almost everybody around you wants to succeed, and for you to succeed, because that just makes the day go better and you do better work. And everybody wins. And so I I think there is that thing where you can go up to someone like Sanjay Samy and the Dali and say, look, I don't really know. the track should go, but this is the shot. Can you help me? And then you go, yeah, let's just do this and whatever. And and you know, everybody and then they learn, you know. So ⁓ yeah, there's definitely that. So Wes Anderson. I I I I I figure I should ask you something about Wes Anderson. ⁓ what what was the first thing that you guys worked on together? Well I was recommended to him when he was doing ⁓ Dajiling Limited because he was coming to India and ⁓ and he was very keen to work with an Indian key grip and ⁓ And I'm I'm not sure how I got recommended to him. I think it was ⁓ I think it was through Mira Nyer, who's ⁓ an Indian director who I'd worked with. and Yeah, so we we we worked together on Dajeling Limited and and he, you know, we were it was a really, really crazy movie. We had ⁓ we were filming on a real train moving through the Indian desert. Every morning we'd get in at the one place and we'd We'd go out half the day out into the desert and half the day back. And ⁓ you know, we're filming inside this real train ⁓ and ⁓ and West was you know, after having decided not to do it on set and do it on a real train, he was stuck for a lot of things and ⁓ you know the the corridor was too narrow for me to fit the steady cam inside. ⁓ we couldn't fit a dolly in there. So I I suggested, I said, you know, why don't we build like a custom overhead duly that we can undersling a camera on to track through these cat corridors. And he was very skeptical. He he was not sure that something like this could be pulled off, that that it would work at all. And ⁓ and I think he just decided that he's gonna Yeah trust that I know what I'm talking about. Yeah. And I built and I built it and and we used it extensively right through the I I ran almost ⁓ three hundred feet of it through the entire train and And we shot ⁓ a huge portion of the film off this ⁓ you know, custom made track and custom made Dolly that that is actually you can see it in the film if you l if you ⁓ you know, you see the track on the ceiling, but it looks like it it doesn't look like anything. It looks like it's part of the trail. ⁓ I'll have to look for that. Okay. Yeah. But a a lot of the things that ⁓ that he felt like most I think he felt like most people would have said, ⁓ you can't do this or you can't do that or And I just said, ⁓ okay, you want to do this? Okay, let's figure out how we can do this. You know, you wanted to be able to change ⁓ ending the windows ⁓ on the fly very quickly. So since we were rebuilding the train, I had ⁓ the art department build like filter trays into the the windows. So and then I had hard hard enties ⁓ cut to the shape of the windows. So ⁓ as the light was changing, we could just drop them in like filters and Yeah. And ⁓ you know, so the there were little things that he thought were really ⁓ good solutions. We also ⁓ you know, we did a lot of stuff with ⁓ with a rickshaw that I'd built. And you know, w we had to have the camera rigged to actors running carrying ⁓ suitcases and I just made them run with a rickshaw and the camera rigged onto the rickshaw behind them. So they had to pull the camera with them. But you know That's amazing. So it was ⁓ you know, he he just ⁓ he he enjoyed my my solutions because ⁓ they were all low tech, simple, ⁓ effective solutions and he kind of liked that approach. So ⁓ we you know so then we took it forward from movie to movie. Is he the type of filmmaker who basically and ⁓ and I would imagine because he has you in his back pocket, ⁓ doesn't consider how it's gonna be done, just considers how do how do I wanna tell this story and then he comes to you and says, All right, how how do we do this? Yeah, exactly. So he that's fair he he does now now he does an animatic, so it's like a cartoon of the of the shot. And ⁓ it's like it's like the the whole movie is almost animated. And ⁓ so we look at the animation. So that's actually there's the shot in the French dispatch which I'll show you the the the the behind the scenes for it. But it was ⁓ it basically we track across and then we track back and and it's all stupa hard stops with very, very specific architectural elements in the right of frame, left of frame, extreme hard stops. And and you know, I was looking at it and I was like, ⁓ this can't be done on a technocrane because first thing we to change ⁓ you know ⁓ lateral pull back across push in. You know the changes of direction ⁓ it can't be dance floor, it's not precise enough. It can't be technocreen, it's not precise enough. ⁓ it can't be steady camp. So I called up Wes after I looked at it and I said, Wes, is this one shot? You know, it it seems to be one shot in the in the in the cartoon. And he says, Yeah, I did, I did imagine it to be one shot. I said, Well, you know, like there's there's four changes of direction in 90 degrees with very, very hard, precise, cent centralized stuff. And ⁓ he says, Yeah, I said, So how are we gonna do that? He said, Well, I I figured that you would find a way to do it. So that's your problem. Yeah, essentially essentially. So so because be because the people listening can't can't see it, although I'll put it I'll put a link to it. I mean, this is a shot that basically is a very, very controlled, like all OS S Anderson's frames, ⁓ Dolly move that makes what, three right angle Changes in directions or four or Yeah, one, two. Yeah, three three right angle changes of direction. It it's I was that the first time you sort of what do you what do you call that square? ⁓ Yeah, w we Wes called it the Mangalore rig because ⁓ because actually we came up with a s with a single change of direction, which is much simpler. ⁓ just a straight ninety. ⁓ the the three the three ⁓ the th three different changes is very complicated. ⁓ I'll for I I'll explain the reasons but but basically the single ninety we did for ⁓ an H and ⁓ commercial which you can watch on ⁓ YouTube if you just put a search for H and ⁓ Wes Anderson you'll be able to see it. And the link to that, yeah. So we we had to do a ⁓ this so when I when I was trying to wrap my head around it, I was actually working with ⁓ I was working with Alwin Kuchler. Do you Alwin Kuchner, the D P? I don't, no. No. Okay. He's he's a great guy. Brilliant T P. I was doing a Tamsung ⁓ mobile phone c commercial with him and ⁓ and I was trying to I was sitting you know with a drawing and and he was asking me what are you doing and I said I have to find the solution because after ⁓ I'm going to London to do a commercial with West and he wants to do this ⁓ thing and he's like he so he the next morning before before ⁓ we were filming in a place called Mangalore. And ⁓ the next day before ⁓ we started filming, I went in early with a couple of the grips and we I had this idea and we built this rig. And ⁓ when Alvin walked in and he was like, Wow, that's brilliant and he he was looking at it and and then I took a video of it and I sent it to Wes. And Wes was like Wes is like, Yes, this is exactly what we're gonna do. And ⁓ and he said, What should we call it? So so we have different names for all the rigs we built for various solutions. I love it. Well well and it is one of those so so was French dispatch the first time you really did that many turns in a in a dolly move? Yes, yeah. Yeah. It's ⁓ it's it is one of those things. It's a little hard to understand until you see it, but then when you see it, because you've got Dolly Track that's moving another Dolly track and it's sort of it's just hard to under like comprehend that it works and that you could 'cause it it definitely is the kind of thing that most people would say, What you can't do that. Yeah. That doesn't work well even even when we built it, ⁓ even when we built it, everyone who was watching us put it together. ⁓ many of the grips who I had with me, who had never worked with me before were like this this can't work. And then I had I had everyone saying this is not gonna work. I had the the foc the focus puller saying that this is not gonna work and ⁓ and then we shot it. And then sure enough. And I mean ⁓ like I said, I'll put the ⁓ I'll put the behind the scenes on there and the shot. Because it's just incredible. And and a lot of these shots, ⁓ there's no DP or operator writing. You are the operator as the Dolly Graph. Completely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We ⁓ it's it's all done it's all done with ⁓ with boom and track. ⁓ W West traditionally doesn't allow doesn't like ⁓ the camera to pan or tilt unless it's unless it's too very obviously reframed something else, you know? So it's you it'll usually be a whip pan or something like that. So are you really ⁓ quote unquote, like I said, just in that scenario, are you really operating most of his movies as the Dolly group? ⁓ a lot of the shots, yes, yeah. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ probably like eighty eighty percent of the shots, yeah. That's incredible. And ⁓ part of the French dispatch move is not only obviously like how is that happening, but it's the ⁓ It's the precision with which you're starting and stopping with the actor. And it's and and that's that's what I think actually makes it work more than anything because if it was slightly off, it would sort of it would be ⁓ sloppy as the word, but it just wouldn't be as precise and it feels yeah, it feels like a computer move almost. It's incredible. Yeah, and it's ⁓ it's part of the thing that ⁓ that ⁓ I think initially people don't understand it till they actually watch what it takes to ⁓ you know w ⁓ to to actually pull some of these things off. And some of them some of the shots when you look at them, ⁓ like an Asteroid City, there's ⁓ the shot of ⁓ General Gibson, Richard Wright, ⁓ I mean ⁓ Jeffrey Wright's ⁓ speech. Yeah. Yeah. You know, welcome speech to the stargazers. And ⁓ and that is such a complicated shot. It w it's so complicated because I had about I I had a a cue sheet about ⁓ with about ⁓ I think there were thirty-eight or thirty-nine different ⁓ cues and moves for that shot. Dialogue cues for you to d do a different move. Dialogue cues and some of them some of them aren't even dialogue cues because my cue isn't on his move. My cue is ⁓ is after he moves, just before he lands, it'll be like like like a like a a beat before he lands, we move and you know, so there's ⁓ West doesn't ⁓ like a lot if you if you rewatch the French dispatch shot. a lot of the shots I leave before him or he ⁓ leaves before me and I arrive on him, you know? So ⁓ some of some of those things it's funny that you say that because I have to I mean I've seen it, but I have to watch it again now because to me it felt like you were going right with him. But I think now that you mentioned it, I realize that. And what I I think what I'm actually meaning to say is not that the not that the I may have stated it wrong. It's not that their movement with the Dolly is married. It's that the feeling the Dolly is deliberate. There's no question that there's a moment exactly when it ha when it's supposed to start. And a moment there's no feathering. There's no, you know, it's No, yeah, well, you know, ⁓ you hit the nail on the head. Wes, i sometimes I can see the camera shaking because of how hard I've stopped it. And ⁓ and ⁓ the next shot, ⁓ I'll look at Bob Yeoman, who'll be at the monitor, and I'll be looking at him and he'll be like, Why he just hint signal signaled to to me, feather it a little bit. But if I feather it a little bit, Wes will notice. And ⁓ on on the and and he'll and he'll come to me and he's like, Did you feather that a little bit? I said, Yeah, you know, the camera shook a lot on the last one. He's like, I don't mind the shake, but I hate the feathering. Yeah, so that that's so funny because it it is it is that back and forth where you try to hide things in for the good of the particular shot. But ⁓ so but I mean it almost it th the funny thing is it i it's seeing all the things 'cause ⁓ you know, I I I see the stuff you post on Insta on on Facebook and every time something comes up I'm like, what is it now? you know. And ⁓ it's almost like it's almost like you're beginning to butt up against the laws of physics to what what what you can possibly achieve. Like you push you're pushing it as far as possible. It's really it's really quite incredible. And it's it's it's clearly he puts a tremendous amount of trust in y you not only as a technician but also as a storyteller. I mean that's that's amazing. It's ⁓ it's it must be a wonderful collaboration to be a part of. Yeah, i it's a it's it's ⁓ it's a lot of responsibility because he really does he does hand over the trust to telling the story in that way to ⁓ to me or to Adam who's his production designer or you know to to so many people he's ⁓ he's very, very collaborative, you know, and ⁓ a lot of people don't realize that because even Even though he's very singular about what he wants, ⁓ he's extremely collaborative in the process. That's right. And ⁓ yeah. And and you and i di did you start working with Bob Yeoman with with Wes or did you work otherwise or no no with Wes. With Wes. Yeah. Well but I did Ghostbusters with Bob, it's the only thing I've ever done with him. And he's just su he's such a wonderful person to work with. And he's he's he's one of the nicest human beings you'll ever meet. He absolutely is. And he's so he he just loves making Making movies and ⁓ I don't know, did you ever work with him with Casey Hotchkiss as an operator? No, but I do know Casey ⁓ just as you know, just as ⁓ because of ⁓ both of our association with Bob. But ⁓ but I I do know Casey and ⁓ but Bob loves Casey. He always ⁓ he's always telling me stories about Casey. The the two of them I actually I should say I worked with Bob before on a movie called The Heat, but I day played and I came in as a steady camera and I never met Casey but I but I I knew him. And Casey's like this sort of just ornery guy in in a in a lovable way. He's just like you know, and he's he's constantly and the two of them are just constantly hurling insults at each other. They love each other, but yeah, yeah. Bob Bob absolutely loves him. ⁓ yeah, and and it so Casey was on on Ghostbusters, but ⁓ he was on the heat also. And I remember it was my first day, and I did a couple study cam shots, whatever, and Casey was great, and he goes, Yeah, like be give him a little more headroom here, you know, whatever. He was and then ⁓ At the end of the day, the three of us are waiting for the the van to take us back to the hotel. And Bob sort of almost physically pushes Casey out of the way and comes over to me and he goes, Dave, it's so great to have you here. And he goes, I just can't tell you like having an actual camera operator is just such a pleasure. And I didn't know what their relationship was. And I'm like, ⁓ boy. And Casey like threw some insult at Bob and Bob threw some insult at him and I was like, ⁓ okay, this is actually they the two of them are so great. And Bob is such a he's such a blast to work with. So he loves the big prank stuff. ⁓ he's completely have you have you have ⁓ have you has he done all of ⁓ Wes's movies with you or have you worked with other D Ps with Wes with Wes? I worked with ⁓ other DPs on Wes's short films. and and on his ⁓ commercials. ⁓ but all but all the all the live action movies so far have been shot by Bob. Yeah, and so and so I mean it just seems like the three of you are like this, you know. I mean yeah it's like three parts of a hole almost. But ⁓ and and ⁓ and and when you work on the commercials and the shorts, yeah ⁓ I mean I'm assuming that they're people who wess a nose anyway, but do those people realize that you are as big of a part of of you know, the process as you are? Yeah, they do, they do. ⁓ I think ⁓ you know, ⁓ on on the HM commercial, we I worked with ⁓ with ⁓ Bruno Del Bonell. Yeah, I love Bruno. I did ⁓ Macbeth with him. Yeah. Yeah, and and in ⁓ you know, I think he told me actually himself, we we're great friends, but he he told me in the beginning he was a bit ⁓ you know, why are they make me work for this Indian key grip? And ⁓ he couldn't he he couldn't quite figure it out. But ⁓ on day on day one he came to me and he told me, he said, you know. This is how I felt initially, but I get it now. But ⁓ That's great. That's one but he's he's lovely. I love him. And and the other DP ⁓ Wes works with is Darius Conji. And ⁓ my gosh, that's amazing. So Bob, Darius, Bruno, and and ⁓ we did a commercial now with ⁓ Linus Sangren. Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah, all amazing people. But clearly they I'm sure they know r ⁓ right off the bat that you are you are a a big part of that. That thing. Yeah. So are you Darius Darius I work with ⁓ otherwise as well. He's a he's a good Okay, so knows you. Yeah. And and so so are you worried that are you worried that Wes like ⁓ is gonna come up start coming up with things that you can't pull off? Like is that a concern? 'Cause it's ⁓ it seems like he probably I mean if I was him I'd go, Okay, so clearly there's nothing that this guy can't do, so I'm just gonna go hog wild with whatever. Well, you know, I think ⁓ I I mean I'm I'm I look forward to the crazy stuff he comes up with because ⁓ in all honesty I I I you know, we keep going crazier and crazier with the stuff we're doing and I ⁓ it's it's kind of what ⁓ i i I I find it thrilling. But ⁓ but I feel like ⁓ in some ways he you know after he did the animation stop motion films, it liberated him to to you know, you can do stuff that the laws of physics don't allow you to do, you know. So I think i he His his style of storytelling he experimented with moving it there and when I started giving him ways to do it, ⁓ he started now writing a lot of his movies into in ⁓ in a way that ⁓ is a little bit ⁓ animation inspired, you know. So it's quite do think you've actually affected the process to where he's actually ⁓ he's he's leaning in that direction because he knows he could pull it off? Or you Yeah, that that that's what that's what he that's what he told me. He says you if you keep if you keep finding solutions, I'll keep finding ways to that's great. But you know, ⁓ because because you and I both said crazier and crazier, I think one of the things that amazes me about it is when I see the shots, they're not. They're actually very simple. Yeah. And that's the beauty that's the beauty of them. But then when you see what it took, or even before you see what it took, when you try to imagine what it might have taken, yeah. ⁓ It it's it's just like this isn't the kind of thing that should work, but somehow it does. But that's the thing that I love about them is they're just very it's very simple, elegant storytelling. And it doesn't feel like it's crazy, which is a total testament to you because ⁓ you know, it's ⁓ it should feel crazier than it is. I guess maybe that's the c that's one of the crazy. I mean, ⁓ you know, some of some of the some of the solutions I'm not sure myself sometimes I know in my head it should work, but ⁓ I keep thinking ⁓ you know why has no one ever tried this before? And then I yeah, and then I try it and it works and ⁓ and then Wes gets really excited that it worked and ⁓ you know then the next time he comes up with ⁓ so that that becomes another another tool in his arsenal and and the next time we come up with something else, you know. Well let me let me ask you a question and maybe I hope this doesn't ⁓ I hope this doesn't sound wrong because I'm trying to think of my head will it, but so take it with a grain of salt if it does. But I'm wondering Growing up in the film industry in India, where you may not I'm making an assumption here, so tell me if I'm wrong, but especially in the early parts, you may not have had all the equipment at your disposal that maybe we might have in the United States where we can go to a grip house and we can go to this and whatever. Do you think that that is part of the reason why you are so ⁓ there's gotta be a way to figure this out and we'll go get this from the hardware store and put it together because you didn't have a choice? Without a doubt. ⁓ you know, when ⁓ I think I think it's two things. The first is we didn't have ⁓ we didn't have a lot of equipment. In fact we had very little equipment. ⁓ we had to we had to build a lot of the things that we ⁓ you know that we needed. ⁓ if if there was a shot that we had to try and figure out, we had to we had to build it to try and figure it out. And ⁓ the other aspect of it is that I was never ⁓ I was never told the right way to do something, you know, because I ne I never I never studied ⁓ to be in the film industry. So and I'd ⁓ so I kind of ⁓ learnt my own ⁓ my own method, which for whatever it's worth was ⁓ was ⁓ not not the standard way. Yeah, well it just occurred to me that that it it's in a weird way Y yeah, you y you may have benefited by not being able to take the easy way out all the time and just going, ⁓ I can buy this widget and whatever. It's more sort of like how can I make this? And then of course as you're making it, you're going, you know what, I could do this better than that or or or whatever. Yeah. That that's amazing. So ⁓ you've worked with Scorsese on a couple of movies? No, just ⁓ just silence. Just silence. What was that like? What's what's it like working with Scorsese? Well, interesting. I was Key Group's second unit. So wha what we what we did was ⁓ we we had many scenes where we were filming out from sea back to land. And so main unit was shooting all the angles looking out to sea and second unit was shooting all the stuff looking back to land. And ⁓ we'd still be reporting to Rodrigo, the DP, but ⁓ but it was like two separate units because ⁓ they had to clear they had to clear complete we would start from a different place and It it was quite complicated the way we were working, you know. So ⁓ a lot of the I I I'd I've worked with Rodrigo before and ⁓ I'd worked with ⁓ quite a few of those people before. And ⁓ it was interesting. It was a really, really tough shoot, ⁓ really tough conditions, very grim story. ⁓ you know, Hard, really hard ⁓ in many ways. we were we were filming a lot of marine stuff in you know really violent sea. ⁓ there was a lot of rain, a lot of the sets were washed away, and you know, we're we're like filled with mud and you know, just just tough, just ⁓ tough, cold, wet. ⁓ and i i it's interesting because it was one of those things where the director doesn't talk to you directly, you know, so all your information comes via the D P. So ⁓ it's not collaborative in that sense with the director. But for me for me it was a a bucket list thing, you know. Well ⁓ and and you sort of touched on one of the reasons what I was asking because I was wondering about this. Is it is it I mean it seems like What do you do, a Wes Anderson movie every other year or something like that almost? And then stuff in between, obviously, shorts and this and then the other. Is it is it tough to be on a Wes Anderson movie where you are literally in the center of everything right next to him? Yeah. And then be on something else where it's you're just sort of waiting for your marching orders and okay, this is this is my job. Is is there like a reset that has to happen with you? Yeah, there's a reset that has to happen. It's ⁓ it's ⁓ it's It's a lot it's a it's a massive reset actually because ⁓ you want to be more involved but ⁓ but you understand it's a it's a much bigger machine and it's ⁓ you know it's ⁓ it has its own way of working and you need to you need to play your part in making sure that your end of it gets taken care of. But ⁓ it's a me it's a mental game at that point. Yeah, it is. ⁓ but ⁓ having said that, ⁓ you know, I've worked on big movies which are also very similar to like Like ⁓ on the Bone Supremacy, for example, on Mission Impossible with you know, with ⁓ I do I do I work with Dan Bradley, the the second unit director quite a lot and and he's ⁓ he can be ⁓ tough. ⁓ not many people like work ⁓ I know many people who don't like working with him. I personally love working with him because he's he's very exacting and I like that because I I like when there's no ⁓ where there's no room for error and you need to you need to get it right, you know. And ⁓ And you know, it's it's a lot of people get lost sometimes in the w when you have someone like him who's ⁓ you know, very, very harsh taskmaster, they get lost in the fact that they think ⁓ the movie is more important than it actually is, you know. ⁓ for for me that never happens. I know it's still a movie, so I don't get ⁓ lost in the fact that I still I ⁓ I mean I obviously always wanna do my best. And I want to deliver every single time. But ⁓ I never get lost in the fact that ⁓ you know, just because there's like ⁓ some big shot screaming his head off, it doesn't mean that ⁓ you know, this is the end of the world. ⁓ you know, you know, I I I I always find it very easy to reset my brain to ⁓ to just get on with the task at hand, you know. Yeah. ⁓ that's that's great. ⁓ have you ever had a t had a time on set where you completely failed? ⁓ yeah, yeah. I've share Yeah, yeah. You know we ⁓ we built ⁓ I built a rig ⁓ which I thought was gonna work really well. It was ⁓ it was a spinning rig for ⁓ we needed the camera to basically what they wanted to do was they wanted to ⁓ they wanted to undercrank ⁓ you know overcrank the camera so it was gonna be very high speed. But it had to look like the camera was traveling around this basketball player in ⁓ in real time. Like it was so so we we had to spin it really, really, really fast. Really? Yeah. And what I'd done was my initial idea was to have a it was a hub that was suspended over the basketball player's head with an arm going out and we were spinning the hub. And ⁓ and my idea was ⁓ initially to have it a rigid. locked off sort of ⁓ counterbalanced arm with ⁓ with a motor on the top. And ⁓ the director could never make up his mind on how far ⁓ what lens he wanted to go with and how far. So I had to make I had to make it adjustable. So it was it was a little bit like a slider. And ⁓ and we finally found the frame, adjusted it, locked it off, and ⁓ I guess I hadn't locked it off properly. And ⁓ and we started up the rig and it was going fine and it was gaining speed, gaining speed, gaining speed. And suddenly I heard this almighty crash and the whole the whole carriage had ⁓ the the lock that that had locked the carriage in place had opened, maybe it wasn't locked enough, or maybe the centrifugal force was just more than we had calculated for. And it's it flew all the way down at to the end of the arm. And ⁓ the ⁓ the mount for the underslung camera kind of cracked, but luckily didn't fall all the way down, but it was dangling off the end. And ⁓ I was like I was holding my head. I was like, okay, back to the drawing board on this one now. All right. So so even at your stage of the game, there's there's there's things that don't work. Yeah, so you know you can you have to basically ⁓ In hindsight, you always know what the problem was. But ⁓ the more ⁓ the ⁓ the more you do it, the more the more of that that whole arsenal of ⁓ of mistakes you have to ⁓ to draw upon when you're ⁓ you know, when you go to it. So Yeah, yeah, yeah. I worked with a a director called Stephen Knight. I don't know if you know who he is. He's an English ⁓ director. He created a show called Peaky Blinders, which is ⁓ It's ⁓ I love Peaky Blinders. My my friend Simon Dennis shot the first like four seasons or something like that. Yeah, so so ⁓ so he's the Stephen Knight's the creator of Peaky Blinders and ⁓ and directed, I think, the first ⁓ bunch of them. ⁓ but he's the writer of the show as well. And he ⁓ he also wrote and directed a sh a film called Lock with Tom Hardy. I don't know if you've seen it about the kind in the club. Hey, so he wrote this film called Serenity and ⁓ And ⁓ they got in touch with me to to work on it. And very interestingly, I was told that ⁓ I was given a reference for for the sort of to he wanted to do a shot that would trigger ⁓ you know a feeling in your in your mind, something that would that would hint that you're inside a video game, but but you shouldn't know that. And ⁓ one of the references he gave me was ⁓ was a camera move ⁓ From ⁓ it was a I think it was a move it was a game called ⁓ Grand Theft Auto. And it's this it's this it's this camera following in sort of a god mode behind and then it it suddenly when the guy stops it swings around and comes to the front lower. And ⁓ and I was like, you know, this this kind of a move is like ⁓ it's not really doable in the world of ⁓ outside of animation. And he was like and they were like, No, no, no, we have to replicate this and you know, we can we do it with steady cam, can we do it with ⁓ motion control? And we're shooting on a small island off the coast of Africa and you know ⁓ geez. You know, in the middle of ⁓ sugarcane field trying to get a motion control rig there. I say, you know, there's gotta be another way to do this. And I came up with a rig which is so simple, it's completely mechanical off a duly. And I'll I'll s I'll show you a video of it ⁓ at some point. ⁓ yeah, yeah. Yeah, ⁓ that's great. That's great. But you just came up with it with basic so it's just like how do the laws of physics work and how do I how do ma I manipulate those to to make this happen? Yeah, and it was just it was all with the with bits and pieces that we already had with us, you know? That's great. That's great. Well, but like we were saying before, like, you know, necessity is the mother of invention. Like you didn't have all the things early on, so you just created what you needed. Yeah, exactly. Is there one rig that you've created over the years that you're sort of most proud of? I mean I I would I would have to say it's the it's the Dolly switching switching rig because I think we've used it so much to to such a to such great ⁓ effect. ⁓ and I think ⁓ the the variance on that that we've done over the years, ⁓ you know, it keeps evolving into something else. So I think ⁓ off ⁓ there's another one with the crane that I've done which I'll show you, but ⁓ but I think the Dolly switch ⁓ switch rig is ⁓ is probably my favorite. Yeah, and the b specifically French dispatch? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it's it started before, but yeah, that that particular shot with the three switches was ⁓ was very complicated to pull off. A lot more complicated than than it seemed. Yeah, I can only imagine because looking at it it seems it seems flawless and simple, but clearly it's not. Well you know the that's the thing when we when we did it, I I until we actually put the camera You know, we we didn't have a chance to test this beforehand because ⁓ the the set was only ready the night before we were supposed to shoot. So I went in in the morning the morning of the shoot and we put in the track and we tested it for the first time about one and a half hours before we were due to shoot. So did you did you was there part of you that didn't think it might that thought it might not work? ⁓ yeah, I was worried. But you know, I I don't sleep very well the nights before these these kind of shots. I'm sure. Yeah. And and did you have a backup plan or did you just go, This is this has to work? No backup. It had to work. There was no other way. That's pretty amazing. That's that's really cool. Well, it works flawlessly and it's an amazing shot. So so you know, congratulations. That's great. ⁓ so so when you're working with Wes Anderson, Bob Yeoman is operating himself, whatever's operated. Like you said, there's not a lot of operating that goes on. ⁓ but But he doesn't use an operator. But you do a lot of movies where you are pushing Dolly with different big operators, right? Yeah. So what do wha when you think of the good operators that you work with, what what do you think it is that makes them good? What makes it what makes an operator a great operator to you? I I think it's ⁓ being able to being able to collaborate with the rest of the crew. I think ⁓ I think that's the that's the key. Because in terms of framing, most good operators can ⁓ you know get that. ⁓ you know the the the the the top the top ten percent of ⁓ the world's camera operators are all can frame up well it's it's how you get along with the crew and how you manage the crew that really ⁓ makes a good operator stand out. And I'll I I you know ⁓ there's an operator ⁓ I was a key grip on a movie and ⁓ there was another Dolly grip and there was an operator and I'm I'm not gonna take any names on this but ⁓ but the ⁓ The operator is a fantastic operator. He's a he's in my opinion, one of the best operators I've ever worked with. And and I, you know, the the the Dolly Grip, it was quite a straightforward push in and boom up to an actor's face. And the Dolly Grip just couldn't get it. He just went on and on and on. And I had worked with the oper the operator before as his Dolly Grip. And ⁓ there were about and this is with a huge d director. And a huge DP. And ⁓ you could see that people were beginning to ⁓ lose their patience. Yeah. And a lot ⁓ and I'd worked with the DP as before as a Dolly Grip. And the DP looked at me, you know, like, Will you take over? And I absolutely was not going to do that because ⁓ it's it's just not ⁓ something I would do. And ⁓ but the operator didn't even once suggest it. He just changed the shot a little bit. ⁓ he didn't once even say that it you know all the Dolly grips. He's like, ⁓ no, no, you know, I need to figure this out. It's a little bit ⁓ complicated. And he tweaked the shot a little bit, ⁓ to the point where it was within the can you know the the comfort zone of the Dolly grip. Yep. And and he got the shot and it wasn't the shot that they wanted, but it was a shot that worked. And he worked around it and it wasn't obviously the outcome he wanted, but he ⁓ took care of the Dali grip. He really ⁓ you know, he ⁓ he made sure that his dignity was intact. He ⁓ he ⁓ you know, he everyone who knew what was going on knew exactly what was going on at that moment. But ⁓ but he ⁓ my respect for him at that point was ⁓ just sky high. You know, I just thought this is this is ⁓ the the right kind of human being, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's well, I I think ⁓ basically it's th there's he's got his eye on a different ball, even though he knows he still has to do the work and he has to get the shot and whatever. But there's a larger yeah. There's a larger ethos to that. So especially on the Wes Anderson movies, but a lot of movies, ⁓ you've worked really closely with a lot of big name actors, some of whom some of whom are tougher than others. ⁓ And ⁓ can you just ⁓ talk about that? I the you know, how d how does that because I mean, you know, in the on the Wes Anderson movies, you're essentially again ⁓ doing a lot of operating with the dollars. So how do you how do you work with them when you have to give a no for to an actor who maybe is a method actor and you know, you don't want to get in their space, but you have to get some information across or any any tips for anybody on that? You don't have to name names. Well there's there's a few things. There's ⁓ you know, ⁓ you've you've got to work with them. There's no way around it. And and sometimes you need their help. And ⁓ there are some actors who are not gonna help you out. And ⁓ and it's a sometimes you ⁓ you just know that it's not ⁓ they're not gonna they're they're just not gonna help you. So you need to you need to figure it out. You need to come up with a plan. ⁓ there's some shots which are really really complicated. I I had to do a shot where we were on a platform. I had the the Pee Wee on in crab mode with the camera offset over over the actual steering ⁓ handle and I had to track sideways, switch into conventional mode and track back while while an actor walked from one window, came up there and and opened the door and charged towards me and I was pulling back. And I ended up almost half off a platform. And I told the actor, ⁓ could you pause for a second before you open the door? And he looked at me and he says, I don't think I could do that. Wow. So what do what do you do in that situation? Well you just have to you know, you you have to ⁓ you have to take a moment and figure it out and try and ⁓ you know, maybe try and get help from the director if if there's no way around it. Sometimes the cinematographer will come to your help. ⁓ sometimes you need to just go to the director and say, Look, can we do something about it? Or take a moment and figure out if there's a way you can you can but it's the main the most important thing is to stay calm at that moment because it's not easy ⁓ when an actor, you know, is ⁓ is going to ⁓ you know go after you. I I've also had a actors, ⁓ an actor coming up to me and saying that, you know. Well, an actor who hadn't who who hadn't learned his lines and who's struggling and getting frustrated and and then everything around him was distracting him, you know, and and he was this my black I was all in black, I always wear black behind camera, ⁓ just because ⁓ you know, it's less distracting and ⁓ and also reflections. But I had w black shoes but with white soles and he came to me and he says, You know, the white the white on your soles is ⁓ You know, ⁓ it's drawing my attention. ⁓ the next day I went out and looked for shoes with black soles as well. Black soles. Yeah. Just just because just because I didn't want to give him an excuse, you know? Sure. Well, and look look, I you could you could look at that and go, ⁓ you gotta be kidding me, that's petty and you're a precious actor and this and that and the other. But the reality is, and I mean I don't know where this was coming from, assuming that it's coming from a real place, if he sees this white thing coming up all the time and it's making him Yeah. Yeah. It is it is an actual problem. So, you know, I always I always with actors, I always look at them and if if look the the easy ones are the best in the world because it's just what can I do for you and what and we all know them. But ⁓ but the harder ones ⁓ the tougher ones, I look at them and I go, I it what you're doing must just be really hard, which it is, and I can't comprehend it. So I just don't wanna be in the way of that. Yeah. You know, so so that's that's But I think I think the way you put it was right. It's almost like you have this checklist. It's first thing is, can I fix it myself? No, I can't. Then can I ask the ac actor for, you know, could you do me a favor? You know, and I always I don't know about you, but I always go, look, I'm not I c I'm having a problem here. And I I put it as like can can you help me? And if they say no, then it's back to is there another way I can fix this? And then I think at that point it is going to the DP or the director and going, Look, I got a problem because physics won't allow me to do this and I've asked But he doesn't want to open up the door slower. So here's three ways we can change the shot, but what would you like to, you know, yeah, yeah, it's ⁓ it's all those things. But it's a it's a it's a it's a slippery slope. Do you have anything when you first get on a movie with a new actor, do you have anything that you do to try to like introduce yourself to them or do you not introduce yourself to them or to try to figure out assess who they are and how they're gonna be to work with? ⁓ yeah, I think I think I think you have to do it ⁓ gently because ⁓ if it's in an environment where they're already stressed or there's something, you know, that they've got so I try and stay out of their way as much as possible. And then ⁓ you know, ⁓ over a movie you have a long period of time and and you try and see ⁓ and hopefully the director has or it hasn't been scheduled where you've got really tough stuff right o right off the bat, you know? So ⁓ Sometimes it does and then there's no way around it. You just gotta figure it out. But Yeah, it's always nice when you have like the softball first day where everybody can just sort of like shake it off and whatever. Yeah. I are you do you when you start a big movie, are you s are you nervous? Yes, always, yeah. Really? Even at this point. Yeah. Even even you know, even even when I'm working with Wes who I've worked with ⁓ so much, I still ⁓ th on the morning of the first day I still ⁓ I still have ⁓ you know, that feeling of anticipation and It's it's a mix between ⁓ anxiety and excitement, you know? That's good. That's great actually. I mean, ⁓ you know, the hope is that that never go I mean it's not ⁓ hope it's not too much, but the hope is that it never goes a away and it's still exciting, right? 'Cause that's why we that's why you I I think I think ⁓ I think the key is ⁓ is to stay ⁓ is to stay excited about what you do. If you d you know, I I still love what I I l I love every day that I go to work I feel like Someone's paying me money to you know, they found the most beautiful place on earth. ⁓ they w you meet the most interesting people on earth and and you know, you get paid money to go then play, you know. So ⁓ I d I find it ⁓ like what's not to like, you know. How how was it opening up the New York Times and ⁓ seeing your your a big story about yourself as well since But how much how much crap how much crap did you get for that? ⁓ I I got a I got a lot of crap. But but I have to tell you I didn't know about it. ⁓ I I did the interview, but I thought it was part of a piece that was for the launch of Asteroid City, for the for the release of Asteroid City. That's that's what I thought. I I didn't think it was about me. So I th I I got a I got a call from Focus Features. Saying that ⁓ you know, these people ⁓ from the New York Times want to talk to you about Asteroid City and you know they've already spoken to Adrian Brody and they've spoken to Wes and they've spoken to but I didn't realize they were talking to them about me. I thought it was about the movie. And and then ⁓ you know, I I and they called me up and I spoke to them and and then I didn't think any of anything off it. I took my kids and where I took them scuba diving on the East Coast and I didn't have any internet there. So I didn't know anything. When it came out, I had no idea. And then I got ⁓ I went one day I was at a cafe and I was checking my mail and I got a mail from Owen Wilson who had said that, you know, I opened the newspaper and what do I see but my good friend and ⁓ and then I was like, ⁓ okay, I n I think I need to check this out. And ⁓ and then I got and then I went and I downloaded my mail and I I had messages from so many people. And then I went online and I looked at it and I was ⁓ I was a bit shocked. I had no idea that it is actually what it's the that story is even better than just the fact that they did this article about you because it's it's a perfect it's a perfect way for it to happen. And ⁓ I I will say that when I saw it, I was just like, Boy, first of all, that is so deserved. And second of all, it's so cool that they're like giving you that moment of because you're you're clearly such a huge part of the way that Wes Wes Anderson tells stories. ⁓ it it was really it was brilliant really pretty cool. Yeah, it was very funny because Wes Wes sent me a message as well. He he sent me a photograph of his coffee cup and the and the newspaper opened up on that page. That's great. ⁓ that's great. That's that's that's very cool. Well, it was a very, very cool and well deserved thing. So ⁓ yeah, that was cool. Well, well listen, Sanjay, this was like this was so cool to me to talk to you because I've never sat down and talked to you really before other than like I said, like five minutes on on whatever. And and truthfully, I don't remember when that was, but it was almost like I think it was before maybe like Facebook and the the study cam group. Because I I remember you you said you introduced yourself and you were like, I'm a study cam operator. And I sort of was like, wait, I don't what? You're ⁓ why am I here that if you're a study cam and then you mentioned something that was like a union problem with it or whatever. But I I hadn't heard of you and I was like, All right, whatever. And and ⁓ but I just remember meeting you and thinking, ⁓ this guy's pretty cool and we had a good talk and whatever. And then years later I start saying all these unbelievable crazy shots that you've created. ⁓ which I hope if if you'll you'll agree, you'll do ⁓ a couple of breakdowns on the shots where you explain how you did it and show the behind the scenes for us, because I'd love to put that out there. It's it'd be just amazing to do it. But ⁓ but yeah this was such a pleasure. So I I'll I'll leave you with the question that I ask everybody ⁓ and you can sort of take us out with it. ⁓ a younger operator moving up, ⁓ someone getting into the business or Sanjay twenty years ago talking to Sanjay now. ⁓ what's your what's your what's your advice for how to succeed in this business? Well I think ⁓ the I think the single most important thing is be enthusiastic and be ⁓ be attentive, you know? I think ⁓ go go on a set. Even if you don't even if you don't have a job, ⁓ see if you can get onto a set, watch people, observe people and ⁓ and Learn, you know, I think more than more than you know, people are now ⁓ very obsessed with the mechanics of operating the steady cam and the mechanics of ⁓ it's not so important. I think it's much more important to understand the storytelling part of it and ⁓ and understand also the ⁓ the etiquette of of conducting yourself on set. You know, I think ⁓ these are really important things and I think they'll take you much further in your career than just being able to hold a great horizon. And ⁓ you know, walking around with the steady cam. I think ⁓ I think a lot of those things are overrated ⁓ as compared to ⁓ you know, the other things. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.