Dave C: On today's episode, we'll talk about remaining calm in the chaos, being of service to the project you're on, get it sold, thank you, Mr. Brown, and of course, when you show up and the director is wearing a red beret. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website, theop.io, is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Like it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Victor 30 Echo Tech Team. Hey Mark. Camera set. Back room in action. Hello and welcome back to the Out Podcast, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I'm Dave Komitis, your host, and coming to you for the first time actually from ⁓ the basement of my home here in Connecticut. ⁓ because ⁓ I have a friend and a fellow operator who has actually come to ⁓ involve me in a project that he's doing, which we're gonna talk about. ⁓ Andy Schwartz. ⁓ he is a steady cam operator and conventional operator as well, and ⁓ has been doing it for a while and is just has also ⁓ talked quite a bit, which is actually I think where we met, but we'll find out. ⁓ some of the things, but not all by any means, ⁓ that he's worked on. ⁓ new TV show called CIA, ⁓ bunch of documentary stuff, including a movie called Audible, ⁓ stuff for the International Rescue ⁓ Committee, ⁓ Discovery, National Geographic. ⁓ director of a movie called A Path to Follow, DP of a movie called Guest House. He's does sort of a little bit of everything and is a really interesting guy. And I'm I'm actually very glad to have this opportunity. ⁓ Andy, thanks for being in my basement. Thanks for having me. ⁓ so tell me, how'd you what what's your story? I got out of college not doing film or photography or anything. What'd you go to college for? I went to college for economics. Okay. And I studied a lot of anthropology and religion. It was like a liberal arts school. Wow. And so I was not into economics, but you know, at that age, people are telling you what you should do, what you should get your degree in. I was really into music in high school and I thought I was gonna go to school for to play music. And I I have recently realized this bit of a dream that I had that when I started playing guitar in eighth grade, like I really wanted to play in a band. And I wanted to like travel around the world and play in a band. Who didn't want to do that? Especially, right? The the issue was I knew if I told anybody about this, they're gonna be like, hey man, good luck with your You and everybody else. Yeah, good luck with the dream. And so I kind of put it to bed. You know, I sort of like didn't tell anybody about it. And I think I didn't pursue it because it seemed impossible. And I think as I started to play guitar and when I started to graduate high school, I very good. I was even teaching a little bit and people were like, What are you gonna do? I was like, Well, I think I would go to school for music. And and they were like, ⁓ what are you gonna do? Teach? And I'm like, No, man. Like I I I don't wanna tell you about what I really want to do because you'll probably laugh. Well, it's sort of your own fault then, right? De definitely my own fault. But it was just sort of like, you know, the culture around me. Yeah, you know, everybody's very supportive of me playing. But I think had I said, like, hey, I'm gonna play in a band and travel around the world, yeah, I maybe I could have gotten that done. I But I definitely wasn't gonna tell anybody because I'm you know, people are gonna laugh you. And plus I didn't have a lot of other musician friends around or anything. So, you know, slowly I got into school and I had to pick something. I ended up in economics because everybody's like, you gotta get a job when you get out and all that stuff. Yep. I got a job when I got out ⁓ interning at Discovery Channel. ⁓ no way. Yeah, and ⁓ and it was ⁓ it was good, but it it wasn't I wasn't very interested in the job, but I was very interested in Discovery because I watched a lot of talks. And I was really into climbing and mountaineering and ice climbing stuff and rock climbing at that time. I what interning, but you're like in the office mostly in the In an office. Yep. Working in like a a ⁓ a department that did like some legal contracts. So I was like reviewing these contracts and you know, kind of going through them to see if there was outstanding things that needed to be settled or if they were valid still for different shows they were acquiring. So they would buy shows from the BBC or something and license them reversion ⁓ whatever, and then I would review these things. I did it for about six or eight months. And at the same time, there was another film unit that was in-house at Discovery, and there was only one film unit at Discovery Channel. Everything else was made out of house. ⁓ I got you. You what I mean? It was all f farmed out to production companies, and that film unit was getting ready to do a show called Eco Challenge in Argentina. And Mark Burnett, who's Survivor guy, he was doing that. That was his thing. That was like before Amazing Race and Survivor. Before he was Mark Burnett. Before he was real Yeah, he you know, he was doing this eco challenge thing. ⁓ and they had done Morocco already and another one. And so this one came up. And the crew that was going down there from this unit, they didn't have a lot of outdoor experience. And they had like three shows to do down there. And so they said, Hey, can you helped these guys get outfitted with gear, you know, tents or whatever. I had all these connections at North Face and the Mountain Hardware. And so I kinda called around and I got them some free gear and credits for credits in the shows and all that. And they basically moved me from that little legal job into the production unit as a production assistant. ⁓ no way. Like so you went down there with them? I did not go down there. And so I I ⁓ I they were sending footage back and they were down there for a while and then I ended up being a production assistant and assistant editor on all these shows. Cool. ⁓ around Eco Challenge. I did a there was a show for Discovery Health Channel, there was a Discover for Travel Channel, and then a show for Discovery. So there's like three shows. And so I worked at a place called Roland House, ⁓ where I met a bunch of people that were in the film business. And I remember just thinking like, Man, this is these are like my people. Like these people are like me. That's so wild though, but you had no idea. Like till you till you saw it. I had no real clue that you know, I loved docs and I watched a lot of docs about Everest and stuff like that and I just didn't really hadn't put it together that like somebody made this stuff and they went out there with cameras. It just didn't I hadn't th you know, what's hard about the film business, even in docs, it's like it's hard to see into. You know, like you can see a band on stage and figure out what they do, but like it's hard to see on to a TV set or a movie set, you know, if you're not in the industry. And even if you are, it's sometimes hard to get access to. So I just didn't know what it was. I mean, I grew up right outside of DC, so I was working down in D C. That's where Discovery was. And there just wasn't a lot of film sets and stuff around. I didn't know that many people, I didn't know anybody that worked in the business, so I just couldn't see into it. And then finally I did and I was like, ⁓ okay, cool. This is good. Like this is editing. And I learned how to edit under a guy named Josh Berkeley who was amazing. And he I remember one time at lunch quartered me and said, What do you what do you want to do? And I was like, you know, I wanna be outside. And he was like, You should think about shooting, like, you know, and I was like, ⁓ okay. Maybe I'll get a camera. I was like, actually I'm going to climb this Mount Hood with my friends, like and maybe I'll take the camera and whatever. And I took the camera and we f kind of filmed. some of that and I got this editor to transfer my footage and he was like, I remember he said he goes, You're you know, you're doing the right thing. You kinda like filmed the wide shots and you got some feet walking around and hands on the ropes. I'm like, ⁓ cool, great, you know, awesome. And so they were just kind of like pushing me in a direction and That's great. And I realized I really wanted to sh to shoot stuff, but I had no idea how. I didn't know what to do. And so I really got into editing. Because that was like, you know, to me, a very technical and creative skill. Do you think the stuff that you were shooting that they liked was I mean, did you basically go, well, when we edit, this is sort of the pieces that they use, so I'm gonna try to get those kind of pieces or was it not that I had already shot that stuff before I had this job. ⁓ okay. And then I remember I had it on like a high eight or something, so I brought it in and they were like answering. And then once I saw what was being edited, and then there was the other significant thing at that time was in that production group after we did Eco Challenge, I was in charge of watching all this footage by a guy named Wolfgang Bayer. Wolfgang Bayer was like a wildlife cinematographer who would travel around the world with his family and film wildlife in Africa and all this stuff, and he would film whales and he would film, you know, bison and yellowstone. And so I would watch all of Discovery's library and I'd be like, hey, we have all this great whale footage. Cool. We should make a show out about out of the library about whales. ⁓ And so we would do and so I was watching this and I remember specifically, I had my camera and I had a tripod and I remember watching him pan across these like plateaus in Africa and Yellowstone. And I remember the pan, it would rise just a little bit and then it would kind of settle down. It would sort of tilt up and it would pan and then it would tilt down and it would stop. And I remember thinking, I'm gonna do that. And I would take my camera and I would go out to the Potomac River and I would work on the pan and I would try to do the rides and I'd watch it and I'd be like, it's too fast. It's too slow. Like that's boring. Or that's too bumpy. Yeah. And I would just mimic what he was doing. And so worked for that production unit. I was pretty eager. And they eventually a woman Anne Lustig who worked there, who passed away. she was like a real first mentor to me wrong along with some of the other people. They sent me on a scout to Yellowstone and I brought my little camera and then I ended up on the shoot with a cinematographer named Bob Poole. Cool. And we went on this long shoot and we did a show called Hidden Yellowstone. And that was the first time I was like I'm in the field on a show. And Bob did Steady Cam. ⁓ and so I was this is, you know, two This is the first time you've ever seen one. I I he had a big pelican, well, sixteen fifty, and He had backpack straps on it and we were shooting Super Sixteen film. And so there's a whole crew. There's a guy named Scott Simper there who's a sound guy. Scott had like just come back from Everest. He was like, you know, so I'm like, these are the people I want to be around. And I remember Scott was reading this book, The Poison Wood Bible, and I was reading the same book. And I was like, Man, this is great. And so we went out there and I remember we hiked to this waterfall. I didn't know what the steady cam was. But I carried the steady cam on my back in the sixteen fifty, like four miles into the wood. It was really heavy, but that's what we did. Got it out there. And then they unpacked the sixteen and I was like, ⁓ I thought I had the camera in there. Like, no, that's a steady cam. I'm like, I don't know what that is. And then they built it, he was balancing it. I'm like, I don't know what this is. And he puts a vest on, he takes off his shoes, he puts it in low mode, and he's doing these sets this these shots up this creek to this waterfall. In the creek. That's nuts. Up to the waterfall. And I was like, That's cool. And I was like, this is unbelievable. Like I had never seen anything like this. And I could I could ⁓ see what the shots were gonna be. Yeah. And I'm watching this guy walk, and I'm like, this is like magic. This it seems so beautiful, but it also seems so physical and elegant. You know, it was like all these things. I'm like Do you remember what kind of study camera was? Did you know enough to know it? Yeah, yeah. I I had asked him a couple years later and it was basically like he had like a EFP that he had modified a bunch. Okay. He never took a workshop and he told me, he was like, You have to take a workshop. I never did, I should have, you know. And I because I was like asking him all these questions. So then we ended up on another shoot in Yellowstone. And I remember in the hotel, I was like I cornered him. I was like, So you own all this gear? And he was like, Yeah, I'm like, so How does this work? Like who hires you? Where do you tell me everything? You know, yeah. And he told me he was like, I get around for this and do that. I'm like, I'm like, man, I think what year what year is this ballpark? Maybe two thousand one. Okay. All right. You know, two thousand, two thousand one. Yeah. And I'm you know, I I was so moved by the steady cam and I wanted to do it so badly. And so a couple years later, I think in two thousand four I fought I had left Discovery to go freelance because every I had gotten interviewed for a job at Travel Channel. It was a supervising producer role. And I remember the woman I interviewed with, I told her what I wanted to do, and she was like, This is not your job. And I said, What do you mean? She's like, You're gonna go out on set, but you're gonna go visit with production companies making shows and then you're gonna come back here and tell me how it's going. You're never gonna be making anything. And I was like, ⁓ I'm a spy. She was like, But this will be a great job if you want to move up and everything. And I was like, you know Think I want to freelance. She's You're have to freelance. And I went back and I told the people that I was working for, I was like, I don't think that's my job. And they were Yeah, it's not. You need to be in the field. I said, Okay, great. So I left, went freelance, got a worked for a production company, and I bought a steady cam mini which from B and H. Which was what? That little handheld thing? It no, it was like a sled with a little monitor and had battery, and it was like a f it was like the pre flyer. Okay. Remember the flyer? Yeah. And it had this weird sock on the arm. It had a one section arm. Okay. And it had a sock that you would cover it up with like a fleece sock. Right. And I was carrying that thing around at my parents' house and I was just trying to figure out how to I had the video that I Yeah, I think I had a GL two. Yeah. Okay. All right. Stuck that thing on there and I'm walking around with it. And I remember thinking like, I'm gonna do some shots with this thing. And actually, you know what, I should back up a little bit. Before that, a friend of mine named Marissa Ronka, we were both working at Discovery, we were working for that group. We wanted to try to make a short film together because she wanted to do sound and I wanted to shoot. And I said, Well, maybe we can try to shoot a story. In the closet of Discovery, there was like a glide can that you would carry with your hands. ⁓ yeah, okay. And so I used that and we made a short film and it did pretty well. It like won some awards and it went places and we won like 500 bucks somewhere. That's great. And I was like, ⁓ we did it. We made a film that was cohesive and people understood it. And like that was my first little steady cam thing. Then I had that mini a couple years later. ⁓ huh. And then ⁓ I got hired at a production company and I shot a pilot. So I'd been shooting on different things like associate producer and I would do B camera and stuff, second camera with other DPs, and I was just learning. Shot a pilot in Baltimore for a show about urban exploration in 2004. And the Discovery picked up the pilot for five episodes. And so I was the associate producer and I was basically the other DP. We hired a DP and I became a DP and that guy was like, ⁓ you have a steady cam, bring it. And I'm Yeah, but I'm not very good at this. He's like, who cares? It's gonna be fine. And he really was like one of those guys who said, Don't worry about what you don't know, just figure it out. Yeah. And it was great working with him. That's great. And ⁓ so I remember bringing it on set and we were shooting in Chicago the first episode. And I built and we were walking around the hallway and he helped me get it better balanced and stuff because he worked with Bob. And then I had it and I took that thing into tunnels underneath the city of Chicago, like walking under the city. There's all these tunnels that were train tunnels that used to bring coal into the city. Yeah. So I was carrying the steady cam underneath there and I was like, Man, I made it. That's cool. I was like, man, this indust Did you feel like you knew like you could control it? I mean, was ⁓ Yeah, I wasn't it when I I just looked at those shows, they're on YouTube still. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ and I was like, you know, it's not that bad. Really? It's not great, but it's not that bad. And ⁓ And I was, you know, shooting on a wide lens, like walking around with an autofocused camera. But I mean, I was in all these crazy buildings and missile silos. Like we were in like abandoned buildings. I had I fell through a floor in an old bowling alley wearing the steady cam. And like the steady cam stopped me from cause the arm got caught, stopped me from like falling all the way down. ⁓ my god. you know, we did all these like crazy things happened and I was just like, man, this is exactly what I want to do. I want to be out exploring the world. I love toting the camera around. the steady cam sort of frees me up to make beautiful, interesting cinematic shots. And then I took to workshop in 2005. Now let me let me go back for a second because you said that you were just amazed by how how ⁓ sort of magical it was when you first saw it. Like what was it about it that that do you remember do you remember what it was? Was it just like how it floated or that That someone could do it, or the fact that he was in the stream, or yeah, it was the the thing that is in my head is looking at him. I can still see the shot, or I can see what he was doing and where I was standing, is that he kind of carried it over there and it was attached to him and he was just walking around with it and he was bouncing and doing stuff. And I remember looking at him, and I remember thinking the camera is like floating, he's moving and He's moving in a different way, the camera's moving. And I felt like there was this sort of like, you know, the camera is doing something magical, but a person is still doing it. And what he's doing and what's coming out the other side are two different things. It was like he's inputting this kind of like walking over rocks in the creek. And the camera is just like that's crazy. Smooth. And I was like, what? How is that? Like it's like disembodied basically. It like took everything away. You know, yeah. And I remember thinking that was the magical moment for me. And then that same setup in that same shoot, we went to another location and he was telling there was a ghost story, and and they did these shots around these trees, you know, ⁓ of the camera, like in regular mode, and they're he's walking through the trees and he's wrapping around these trees. And it was the same thing again. I was like, I can imagine the shots because I see what the lens is doing. But what he was doing walking around with like Teva sandals and shorts on, you know, stumbling through these trees because it was all kind of in the middle of the woods. Sure. And the camera is just moving in this like beautiful way. And I remember thinking like I don't know what that is, but I had felt that similar thing watching somebody play like a musical instrument and thinking like what's coming out is is like I'm seeing some like complicated thing happening and the music that's coming out. doesn't match the complicated thing that's happening. That's really it's a really interesting way to put it. ⁓ it's funny because the first time I ever saw a quote unquote study cam was was in a in a river. ⁓ it was in upstate New York. I was I was the I I was the focus puller, I think. Yeah, I was the focus puller on a on a movie that Corey Garyak, who's now a really big DP and a he gaffed all of Wally Fister's stuff and whatever. ⁓ He was he was directing called Craw Daddies. It was a a ⁓ a horror movie and like, you know, it was one of these things where we worked like seventy two hours straight or whatever. But this guy named Bob Fisk brought a quote unquote steady cam and I'd never even heard of one before. And ⁓ it was made out of like the vest was made out of plastic buckets and the arm was made out of tubing and the the center thing was a was a paint pole that he you know, you would you would but it worked. And I remember the same kind of thing where it's like it wasn't I don't think he was quite as smooth because the the equipment didn't work as well as the guy who re but I remember looking at it going, ⁓ wow, that's really amazing because it's floating over the water. Yeah. So it's a similar kind of thing. Yeah, it's it it was it was such a cool time for me because it was like I didn't know film and now we're shooting film. We got these like really nice cameras, you know, the SR two. We got a steady cam. I'm with all these like really professional people of all this experience. And for me, it was just like I c I I couldn't have wished myself to be in a better place. That's really cool. And I didn't even know it existed. And so it was like such a gift that I stumbled into, but only because people saw something in me and pushed me towards it. Like, you know, I think I got there kind of on my own, but I definitely think like people because of what I was saying or what I was searching for, people that that were around me luckily pushed me into that. I wouldn't have gotten there on my own. Yeah. And that that to me is something I don't forget. And it's just it feels weird because it was such a huge turning point for me. But I think for them it was sort of like, Did you have a good shoot? And I was like, it was, you know, I couldn't even exp articulate how good it was. And they were like, Great. So next time we're gonna do this. And I'm like, ⁓ my God, great. You know, and so I just dove into this world because the camera, the steady cam allowed me, I had a, you know, I I really wanted to do docs because I wanted to experience what other people lived, what they had done, the places they had gone. I wanted, you know, I really enjoyed, you know, the travel of going into somebody's house and just sort of like talking to them and hanging out and all the things we were doing and uncovering history and, you know, all the stuff that I got to do over those times, it was really great. So I just kind of traveled and did a lot of that stuff for maybe five years and I got pretty burned out. And so then I went back to DC w much better at the study cam now. I'd taken the workshop and all that stuff. And how long had you done it before you took the workshop? About a year. Did did you go into the workshop and have to d was there an unlearning that had to happen? Or was it just a building off of Yeah, there was a it was a there was a definitely a wake up call with the amount of weight and the size of the rig, but I remember thinking those rigs are so much easier to deal with and they're so much steadier. Because they have the mass. Because they have weight. And I remember thinking like I don't care about the weight, I was in really good shape. So I like, I'm good with the weight, it's just heavy. But man, I remember thinking, Man, this is way easier than this tiny little wit rig I have where like a you know, someone can breathe on it and it goes weird. Yeah, you know? But it's but i it's kinda like swinging with two bats and and in a weird way. Yeah. It's the opposite. And then like you're like, ⁓ swinging with one bat's actually so nice. Yeah. And so I took that I took the workshop. I remember being extremely intimidated by ⁓ you know, some of the instructors there 'cause they were in New York in New York. It was Jerry, not intimidating. Jerry Hallway. Yeah, he was great. Garrett. Mike O'Shea. Okay. Said Mustafa. Jake Jay Kilroy, Alan Melbreck. ⁓ my gosh. Okay. Yeah, it was great. But I remember thinking like, Man, these guys are like not the guys I've been hanging out with. These guys are like Like these are filmmakers, like they they seemed more like it seemed like walking into like an auto mechanics garage and they know what they're talking about, but I don't know what they're talking about. It was like that kind of thing. Like they were talking about like the grips and this and that and I'm like, dude, I'm like been in the woods. Yeah. With like four people, so I don't know what d a dolly grip is. But they I I would bet that they were sort of fascinated by that. They w ⁓ they would no one knew because I didn't say anything because I was like just absorbing. You know? Gotcha. Alan Melbreck was like he liked me 'cause he was into the same type of stuff I did. And so he very much kind of was like, Hey, you you know, you should hang out with us. Yeah. And like I became tight with him and Jay and and you know, obviously Mike and all those guys, you know, over time. But, you know, at that workshop I remember sitting in the back of the room It was in a different place than it is now. And just thinking, like, man, these guys know so much. This is like a whole new whole nother world now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was still unfamiliar with the one I had been in. So it just took me a little bit to want to even be in the narrative world because I was just sort of getting on the road and traveling and going to Alaska and all these places that I was in Costa Rica. And I was like, ⁓ man, like I d you know That's great. It was really good. Yeah. And, you know. some of the D Ps I worked with, they had done commercials and stuff and they're like they were like, This is so much better and I was like, Really why? Like wouldn't it be nice to have like a big crew and do all they were like, No, it's like slow. Like here we just run out, we do our thing, we go back and and I was I w always wanted to do it but I was afraid of it. And there was well there's probably a lot to them that it's like we just do what we want. Like nobody's nobody's looking over our shoulder going, Why are you doing that? Or the client wants this or whatever. And there's like, you know, I think for docs and stuff you know, and for outdoor adventure things, you know, there's a bit of the expedition mentality, which is like we have to do two things. We have to make our film, but we have to be safe and we have to survive. Yeah. And we have to take care of ourselves. And that comes first, but we have to do them simultaneously. And we can't do one without the other. And that that was like a big draw for me of of sort of, you know, putting myself in like kind of strange situations that were physically very challenging to begin with. Mm-hmm. And then having the camera there, which sort of made some of the physical stuff go quiet. Whereas normally if I was doing that, I'd be like, this is tough and it's cold. But when I'm filming, I'm like, I'm just, you know, it sort of takes your mind off it. Yeah. And I loved that about it because I had already been in out, you know, as climber and doing all this stuff. And, you know, what's what's kind of a bummer about it is that the more I got into filmmaking and and spread my wings in like different types of things that I was doing, getting into steady cam. a lot of that outdoor adventure stuff that I really did for a long time, which I sort of stopped doing as much. You know, I still love it, but I just I kind of moved away from that a little bit into more different types of filmmaking and DP work and directing things and stuff, you know. And and I have other friends that, you know, stayed with it. You know, like I remember a sound guy I worked with was like At one time we were on a shoot and he was like, You gotta meet this guy, Jimmy and he Jimmy's like a screen photographer and he's like such a cool dude and whatever and I he was like, You guys should like meet and I and it turns out I think it was like a year later, I was like, Is that Jimmy Chin you're talking about? And he was like, Yeah, man, and but this was like a long time ago. So, you know, Jimmy's, you know, incredible. And, you know, it it was just, you know, the the that world at that time was pretty small. I was I was gonna say it's gotta be and and it probably I mean it's obviously bigger now, but But among the people who are doing really top-notch work, I'm sure it's pretty small. Yeah, like Pablo Durana is a great cinematographer who came out of that DC group. And like, you know, he's incredible and an unbelievable athlete, but also like a you know, a great human being and a great you know person. And him and I never met, you know, but like I knew, you know, everybody was like, ⁓ you guys should like meet and whatever. But then he moved and was traveling. I was you we were never home. I mean, my friends I was just with a friend of mine today and he was like You rented our office space and then we didn't see you for like two years, you know, 'cause some years I was gone like forty weeks. Yeah. You know, and ⁓ but just going wherever, you know, it was kinda cool. And you so you're doing steady cam on these documentaries, does that mean you're in the rig for long periods of time? So I was DPing. Okay. I was a DP, so I was shooting, handheld, whatever, shooting interviews, lighting, doing all the stuff, and doing study camp. Uh-huh. So we would pull the steady cam out when we wanted to do stuff. We had a jib sometimes. We had all those. But it was mostly like dramatic, artisticky type of stuff or sometimes, but sometimes it was like that yellow sun stuff. You know, or like find somebody through the woods, or we're like, you know, you know, I would always like try to pull it into s sh places where I thought the story it would could impact the story and it could set a mood. And I remember early on thinking like I can shoot this stuff and show you what's happening, but with the steady cam, I can mi allow you to feel what's happening more. And that clicked with me pretty early. That the steady cam was like this umbilical cord for like the feeling and the emotion that I was having being in these places and sort of drifting through the snow or drifting down this, you know, weird hallway in this like abandoned building. You know, or just because of the ethereal feel of the movement. Yeah, because there are certain things like I could follow somebody around a house, but if I did it with a steady cam, it was like you got a feel for what it was like to be in the house. It definitely had this like more presence to me than anything else I was doing. And so I started to just push it into everything I was doing when I thought it was a better fit. Yeah. and then my friend got a job. Well, we became friends, she got a job. doing an HG T V show. And I was like, I don't think I want to shoot an HG TV show. This was like home and garden network or something? Yeah, it was like home renovation stuff. Home renovation. And it was happening in DC, so I didn't have to travel. All right. Which was good because I'd been on the road for a while. It paid pretty good. And I said, okay. And I remember at that time, MTV Cribs. And I remember thinking, ⁓ that's kind of fun. They're like flying around these houses with the steady cam, like Peter Avery. Yeah. And I remember like, ⁓ man, if HGTV did that, that would be even better. And so I said, I'll do the show if you let me do steady cam and give me a little rental. And then they said, Okay, show us what it does and whatever. And I did it. And they were like, This is incredible. Because you're floating through the houses. Yeah, flying through the house for what what was the show? ⁓ man, what was that show called? Get it sold. Okay. It was like a real estate show. Yeah. And this girl, Sabrina, who's Very popular now. She her and I became really good friends and you know, I did steady cam four days a week. And so I was like it was my excuse to be in the rig constantly. We do walk and talks down the sidewalk. We'd like I'd push into the house, I'd fly up the stairs. It was like I was just doing it constantly. Just means you're owning your craft and knowing it, right? I was in the rig four days a week for like two years almost, like all day like doing any and just making up shots and I got good. ⁓ Doing that basically. I feel like that's where I really figured out like what I could actually do with it. And then I started to drift into like, ⁓ I could probably actually follow like a story and a narrative and work with a director and all that. But it took me, you know, four years or so to feel comfortable. And at that point, is it i is is the biggest problem your confidence or your your abilities? Confidence. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I I mean confidence but not in like I don't think I could do it, just I hadn't done it. So I was a bit I didn't know what it meant. Like if someone would have said, Hey, you just gotta walk down the hallway with these two actors, yeah. I would have been like, That's it. But I thought it was something else. So I don't know what I don't know and that's what makes that's what makes me afraid of it. Yeah, but that also was like what drew me into it more was sort of being like, well And had you done any narrative? yeah, like a little indie things, like s you know, people had done stuff like you know, I remember one time we shot a forty eight hour film festival and I was like, ⁓ let's do Steady Cam. No one had done that. And we did Steady Cam and I remember it was a narrative thing and like I remember the shot in the up on the screen. And the whole theater got quiet and people were like, ⁓ my god, and they were like cheering. This is big time. 'Cause it was like such a cool it was like a long wonder. ⁓ yeah. And I remember I was like The whole the whole thing was a wonder? It was a wonder within it. There was like three winners during this okay the four minute thing. Sure. And I remember I was like, ⁓ that actually looked pretty good. That's pretty cool. Yeah. And I remember it being then people responded to it and and I was just like, all right, like that's that's cool. You know, 'cause I, you know, it's like a paintbrush. I'm just like, what does it work over here? Can it work over there? What can I do? Sure. You know, I wasn't in New York and I didn't know the film that side of the film business. So I'm like trying to put this thing out in the world where I had access to. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and so, you know, over the years I had shot all these shows and used this thing all over the place, but was still DPing and all that. And T V really got into like pretty much like reality television. It started getting really fabricated and, you know, some of the shows and the producers I was working with were like not doing it as much. And, you know, I either was I had gotten in doing natural history and outdoor adventure stuff. And it started to turn into like, you know, there's monkey wrench shows and there's this and there's that. And like it's kind of outdoor adventure, but sort of fabricated. And I was like, I don't want to do this. I want to do like documentary feature films. And that's what, you know, led me into more like ⁓ I guess I'm gonna use this word very lightly, sophisticated forms of you know, formats, I guess. What and what do you mean by that? Like doc features that were longer and had longer story rather than like TV shows. Rather than T V shows. Yeah. And so I sort of like, you know, moved into that and then got into commercials and I was doing some like music videos and you know. When you get onto the commercials and the music videos coming from where you came from, w was there a learning curve to like w what is the key group doing? What is the Dolly group doing what I mean? How d did you just sort of like keep your head down and and how do you how do you deal with that? I'm still battling the ⁓ I mean you could ask the ACs and the do my dolly grips from the last show, is that I'll I don't really shut down and I'm like I'll d I'll do everything. Like I'll hold the camera all day, like that's fine. You know what I mean? And so I you know, I wasn't used to someone like putting taking the camera off my shoulder and Building the thing. You I'm like I'm like coming over trying to build it. Because you're used to doing everything all yourself. Yeah, I'm like, I'll change the filter. And they're like, no, no, no. You can go over there and don't even look at the camera. And I'm like, ⁓ okay. But I'm happy to help. So it's hard to shed that. It's it's a it's you know, I I always had the feeling that we're like a team. And so I I always want to be a helper on the team. And you know, I I think it's not Like I know I'm not supposed to do that and I don't want to do anybody else's job. But I'm also like, we're a team. Like, you know, we help each other out and so but I'm also like, Well, when it's my turn, it's my turn and that's cool. Mm-hmm. ⁓ but yeah, it's just, you know, I some people don't like it and some people are like think it's funny. Did you run into problems with that early on? I was just I was confused when I would work and there'd be like two ACs and a loader round or something. I was kind of like I'll build the like what can I I'm I'm used to doing all the stuff. And so I was like, Well, tell me when it's my turn to go. You know? and that happened for a while because those jobs were like sporadic. Sure. My I have a funny story about the first music video I did, the first big music video I did. I had done a few in DC and they were like local D C artists and stuff, nobody big. And so I had been come back from I think I was in Alaska and I came back. And someone called me to do a music video in DC and I was like, ⁓ when is it? And it was Monday. And I was like, ⁓ sure. And this was like the week or two before. And I was like, yeah, that's cool. I'm available. I'll do it. Steady cam. And they said it was on Super 16. I was like, ⁓ cool. I haven't seen that in a while. So I called Alan Melbrick, got like a LOMO bracket or something from him. So made sure I had all the stuff, any cables. And I'm not nervous about this job at all because it's just a music video. Right. And then I on the Friday night before the shoot, I go to a party and people are interested in what I do because I'm the only one around that does the thing. And they're asking me what I'm doing. I'm like, ⁓ I've been doing on this show and doing that. And I'm doing this music video on Monday. And like, ⁓ who? I'm like, I don't know, some somebody in DC. And they're like, well, who who's the artist? And I'm like, I don't know. So I have to dig like dig out the call sheet. And I'm like, it's a guy named Brad Paisley. And they're like, What? And I'm like, I don't know who this is. I don't know who that is on this. So he at the time was this huge country singer. Okay. And they're like, I'm like, I don't know. How big is this guy? And then the a woman in the kitchen grabs a people magazine or something and he's on the cover. And I'm like, ⁓ this guy's like a big deal. And they're like, he's like the biggest country singer, period, right now. And I'm like, so I like look him up and I'm like, ⁓ my God. So I call my AC, Ian Axelrod, who's great. Call Ian and I go, Ian. He's like, Yeah, what's up? And I'm like, this this guy's like a big deal. And he's like, now your head's exploded. Yeah. So I'm like nervous now, right? Yeah. And so Ian's like, So what, man? Some music video. And I'm like, I know, but it's like, you know, this guy's like, but you pressure. I don't want to mess this up. He's like, who cares, man? It's a music video. All right. He's like, I'll see you on Monday. I'm like, okay. And so I get there early in DC and like the dire I never forget the director. I'm like, we're I build the rig and everything's fine. I'm All right, I gotta chill. And and ⁓ the director comes over and he's got a beret on. And I'm like, ⁓ shit, this guy's got a beret, he's like serious, you know, like and then we did some shots of these kids playing football, and and he was like, Yeah, that was great. I'm like, that's it. Yeah, and then the rest of the day, I was like, ⁓ this is pretty easy. Yeah, you know, it was just a music video, and it did really well, and I never saw the music video, and then later the following year, I was somewhere in Texas or something and we're there was like a TV playing in a bar. No way. And I saw the shots. And I was like, ⁓ what are these shots? What is this? Like I remember. I'm like, I shot that stuff. I was like, I shot that. And then the people were like, What? They're like, This is like an award show. And it had won that song had won like a Grammy. And they were playing the music video. ⁓ that's really cool. And I was like, ⁓ cool, man. I'm like, they're like so like you shot that? What are you doing? I was like, it's just too much to like go into Yeah, right. But it was like cool to see. ⁓ that's pretty neat. That's cool. Yeah, it was funny. So you you got out of your own head in time to to do the work. Yeah, but I mean I still kinda go through that process sometimes, I think, which is good. You know, I think it's good it makes me know I'm paying attention. Yeah. When I don't care, I don't get nervous. And when I do care, I get a little like ⁓ make sure everything's like buttoned up and it kinda keeps me sharper. 'Cause I've definitely been in jobs where I'm like, ⁓ I don't really want to be here. I'm not nervous about it. I show up. Not you know, just don't do my best work, I think, when I'm not a little bit like ready. You know, like stimulated, I guess. I I can agree I can see that. I I I find that ⁓ I find that when I'm nervous I actually will will almost do better work. Only because like focused. It's almost like you're you're you're you're looking for the wildlife that's gonna attack you. So you're you're your energy is up and and your your instincts are sort of like firing all over the place, you know? Yeah. ⁓ as long as you can keep that in check. If it gets out of control, then then you got another problem. But ⁓ but yeah, I find I find a lot of times that's when like like when everything's sort of like it's almost like electrifying. Yeah. In a weird way, right? Yeah. I just feel like I'm a little bit more stimulated. I'm a bit more engaged. I actually was doing a documentary a ⁓ like a I've done a couple documentaries with about gun violence and been like on the streets in Philly and Baltimore and stuff. And the this woman from The Wire was directing this documentary in Baltimore that I ended up only shooting a little bit on, but ⁓ she asked me what what was like a strength or something and I said What was a strength? ⁓ she asked me what what she's like, What is your strong point? ⁓ things are going bad or something. And I said, Well I said, when things are easy, I kinda can relax. I said, but when things are going poorly or we're in danger or something bad is happening, like I get super focused, but I'm really calm. And I feel like that was like my strength is that like in chaos, whether we're like out in the middle of the woods or something, or we're on the side of a mountain, or I'm like in the city and we're in a not a safe area, it's like I'm so focused. I get very focused and I'm very aware. and I think that just comes from a lot of the people I was around and you know, a bit of just paying attention and and a little bit of those nerves, you know, I think are really good at times. You do better work. Just you I think you're just more aware of the people around you and the world around you, what they're asking you to do, what you want. And I think when you're when you're too w at least for me, too relaxed, maybe a little passive, maybe I missed something that they asked, maybe I heard it the way I wanted to hear it. You know? ⁓ that's good. Yeah. And I think, you know, being a little bit, you know, I think the pressure's good because I think it forces us to sort of pay attention a little bit ⁓ better. Mm-hmm. So I find that if I'm not nervous, I'm sort of like, Well well, what's what's happening? Like why am I not on right now? I feel like I'm feel like the dimmer's down. What am I missing? Yeah. Yeah, I just wonder what like why am I not engaged? Is there is it not my time? You know, and and I've definitely gotten better about being able to do really nice work and be relaxed, but it's just like my brain has to be like turned on, you know. And that's why I f I kinda like that feeling. And so so do you find artificial ways to do that when it's not happening organically? No. It just doesn't happen. I just I'm just like it's okay. You know, I mean I definitely, you know, with the steady cam If I don't have a s an emotion that I'm chasing, I'll try to create one. ⁓ especially on commercials. A lot of commercials I've been on, there's like ⁓ this is the story, but it's a commercial, you know, it's advertising. And so, you know, you could just stabilize the camera from A to B. Yeah. But it doesn't do for thirty times. Yeah, but it then it doesn't really feel like anything. And I've definitely Had a couple occasions where I've imposed my emotional will on it and they have said that felt too heavy or too dramatic. Can you relax can you like make it a little bit more playful? And I'm like, ⁓ good. Yeah. Playful's an emotion. Yeah, I can use Give me something. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Rather than, you know, I mean, I feel like so many times people come up and they say, I'm like, Well, what's the shot? And they're like, Well, it goes starts here and it goes over there and it's kind of slow. And I'm like, Man. like kind of slow. Doesn't mean a lot. D doesn't, you know, and it's and that's why then I'm sort of like, do they not know? Do they not know how to communicate? Do they not, you know, so I'm trying to f always figure out like what where are they and where can I meet them? And how far down the road do I have to go to meet them? And I'm happy to go all the way back to s and then find out like they don't necessarily know. So let me help them build something that it is what they want. Or they actually know but they're busy, they got something else they're talking about. Or you know what? I just need to show ⁓ something and then we'll find our way together. That's fine too. There are a lot of those people that I work with who can't as weird as it is, they can't they can't envision stuff as well as they show me it. No, no, it's gotta be a little faster than those they've got to see it before they can give that feedback. Yeah, and I I have realized the the more ⁓ I really prefer and I know this is maybe not how a lot of people like want to hear this, but I mean I know some people that won't wanna hear it. I guess I don't know if it's a lot, but I know I know a few that this would make them mad. Is that I'm trying to get to showing them the thing as fast as I possibly can because that give them something to react to and I like to put the rig on and be like this and then they're like yes and I'm like, Great. So we're gonna go for that, put it down and then we work. But I wanna I'm always trying to get the lens up to get a reaction bec in l if they don't know or I'm not getting clarity from ⁓ so you're saying the people who don't like that are the people who are like, Yeah, we're still building it or we're still we we've got something to do or whatever. Like they they're not ready to have it put up. Yeah, I mean like if there's no finder out and we're not looking at shots. Yeah. You know, 'cause there's so many times like that and and it's, you know, we're watching the rehearsal or whatever we're doing, you know, and it's sort of like we'll find the thing or we're gonna cover the heck out of it anyway. Mm-hmm. You know, I I think it's just nice to get a frame up and you know, no matter what it is, and be like, this is the shot that we gotta work inside this tiny little TV screen. Mm-hmm. And it's gonna go from here to here. And it's like great. So like forget about everything else here. This is all we're trying to get to. You know? And I think part of that comes from me directing my own stuff sometimes, of of realizing how much things kind of we go through the motions of so many things that we never get to or we never use. And, you know, I realize like, ⁓ man, and even editing, I'm like, man, so much stuff doesn't get used. Why can't we just decide on the thing we want? You know, and so well, especially narrative, so much of that is the thing that frustrates me so much is this is what we're gonna use, but we have to give them this too. You know, and it's just like there's the politics of it and all that. But of course that's a whole nother story. Which is which is good. I'm good with that too. You know, I just I I very much you know I think at one point would do anything anybody wanted. And now I think I really want to help them say like, let's commit to the idea. Which can be s which can be tricky, right? Because not everybody wants that. Yeah. And I'm just like, let's just do let's like this is gonna be good. And if it's the only thing we have, we know it's fantastic. But you know, that doesn't always work and it doesn't work in television all the time, and that's totally cool. It does work on narrative feature stuff more for sure. And you know, but ⁓ yeah, so I I think like trying to create emotion with the rig and the steady cam and and me and and what's happening in the story and trying to respond to something, you know, it's it's not always given to you. So sometimes you have to kind of fish for it or you have to create it. Now when you're talking about creating an ⁓ an emotion, I mean, you know, so much of that has to do with framing, so much of that has to do with speed, and so much ⁓ you know, there's all those things, right? That ⁓ Yeah. Is it the kind of thing that you think about what that is and then you try you you i is there an actual thought process when you're doing that? Like is it i is it I'm gonna do this and it's gonna feel spooky or whatever, or is it just sort of that you just start to move and you kind of adjust till it feels right? Does that make sense? Yeah. ⁓ I think that's a good question. I think it starts with w is there tension in this moment? Of any sort. I'm like, is there tension here? If there is tension here, where is it coming from? I mean figuring out what you're trying to create first. Yeah, like from the story. Yeah. You know, because ever I feel like every scene has should you know, it generally has tension of some sort or it does not have tension, or that tension is on the playful side or the joy side or whatever. So it's sort of like, is there tension that needs to be felt to the viewers? Because, you know, sadness can be seen, can sadness be felt in the movement and all that stuff. Like and so you know, once I kind of determine, I think through questions or observation, like what is the the emotion that is happening in the scene that we want to evoke and bring to life in the people watching it. And so then I start to think about, well, should I be what lens are we on? I mean the lighting, all this stuff goes to that thing. And so the l the the only thing I generally have control over as an operator sometimes is what the camera's doing. You know, maybe I can make a suggestion on a lens or an idea to the T P depending on who it is. But, you know, you know, I'm sort of thinking like, okay, they're they're lo they're having this moment, they're lonely, they're reflective. Like what is this thing doing? Whether I'm on a dolly or handheld or whatever, that's invisible to the audience, but can be felt a little bit. And it adds that little bit of that umbilical chords type thing to the emotion that the character might be going through. You know, because sometimes you're filming somebody who's not talking at all and they're veer very much as an actor embodying the emotion of whatever this character's feeling by staring out the window or, you know, staring at the floor or thinking or wal pacing and, you know, That moment I think is so key for the audience to pick up on and I think that's where the operating really can kind of come through. Do you do you think that because you and tell me if I'm I'm on to something here, I'm not sure. It seems to me that because you started in documentary, which is the story is happening and I can't control it on some level. I mean, obviously you could do recreations and things like that, but but when it's something r real, ⁓ for lack of a better word. That you in the moment have to decide what the emotion of your movement is, what the emotion of the framing is, because you y you you only have that one chance to grab it. Do you think that that makes you a better narrative operator when you have all the time to create it? Or or like d does one translate to the other? I don't know if it makes me better in any way. I d I do think I think about that a lot because I always thought, well, I'm a documentary guy and people have told me this. Yeah, doc you know, you do docs and we do narratives and I was like, okay, and now I think the documentary stuff very much informs the narrative things. I mean, maybe vice versa, but for me I only know the one way. And I can tell you that I I can s when when I've been following people in their real house and they're having a moment, even if they're trying to hide it, like I can pick up on it. And if it doesn't fe and if you know, depending on what I decide to do in that moment is is one thing, but being on a narrative film And trying to understand what these people are going through, you know, my intuition and my sensibilities kind of go up to be like, this doesn't feel right. Like I I see them doing this thing. The camera's moving not in concert with it, but it's almost moving in a way that doesn't feel connected to that invisible thing. And it's just a feeling you have emotion is a thing that you you you know, you can see it, right? But it's also like something that you know, people might be crying 'cause they're happy they're crying this, but it's like if you're not careful, like it might look it you might pick up on the wrong thing and it might feel you know, so trying to, you know, find that music of emotion from the scene and move the camera in a way that, you know, I think at least n is neutral to it or adds to it. Adds to it. Well, because there is that it's funny as you're saying that I was thinking about it, especially doc documentary 'cause a couple of documentaries I've been involved with. There's a that thing where something is happening And you don't want to overpower it and you don't but you don't want to you don't wanna not give it its due and you don't wanna make it about the shot. You know, I mean so there's that there's that constant at least I had, there's that constant questioning of like what is the right thing to do at this moment to to allow this to play. Like 'cause sometimes not moving at all is better than moving, you know. And yeah. Yeah, you're definitely you're yeah, ⁓ and that that is a good insight, I think, because I've found myself many times going Something's happening, do I move closer to it? Do I move closer to how close like, ⁓ I think I think actually right now they trust me, I can be close. And they trust that wherever I am, I'm in support of whatever microphone I'm trying to provide them for their story. Do you do you find that having done that stuff that that taught you to commit? Because that was the one thing that I found was no matter what I decided to do, I need to I need to commit to it or because otherwise it's it's it's gonna blow the moment no matter what. Yes. Yeah. I definitely feel like I once I decide that this is the thing to do, like I should try to do it. And I should and I know that like if I'm heading in a direction, like I could probably change, but I can't give up on it. Like let it evolve a little bit. Yeah. It's there's an improvisation to it, I think, that I think I can bring that I think that's maybe that's the sort of thing to get back to your other question is that I think the documentary thing has given me like a very quick response to the improvisation of what occurs in a scene. And it and I watch you know, I've spent so much time watching real people on camera through an eyepiece, you know, interact with each other and like around a kitchen table and these things. And so, you know You just sort of get in tune with the pacing of what it is. And when you have incredible actors doing it, it's you're it's like they're almost doing it in the same way. Yeah. Sometimes I'm almost like, ⁓ I I I'll do something that I think is coming and I'm like, ⁓ that was weird. Like and then then the director might come out and say, Well, I don't know if I like that thing and I'm like, ⁓ good, okay, I didn't like that either. You know, like it didn't feel it felt ill unnatural to me or something, you know. Yep. So yeah, it's interesting. And you know, it's like you kind of look at things and go, I don't know what's not working here, but I can only control my little piece of it. So how can I how can I make this thing work better with with my instrument that's part of the scene too? I mean, you know, I I think the camera is so much a part of the scene, as much as it's not in the scene. You know, it's very much a part of the pacing and the timing and the lensing and the lighting, like all that stuff I I over so many years. having lit things that I did not like on docs and then figured out how to light them in a way that helps the story and isn't just a vanity thing to show people I can light and stuff like that. It's right for what you're shooting. Yeah. And so like being on set now with all the tools and all the talented people around that are so good at their jobs doing the things most of the time. And like and then being like great. Like all this stuff is headed towards the right point. Mm-hmm. And then when that happens, it's great. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. You know, it sort of feels like we land on three points and not one. Well d w has there been a documentary that you've worked on where you went in and you thought that this was the story, but you actually realized no, that's absolutely not the story. This is the story, like where it's just completely changed. Yeah, I think almost every time. Is that right? Yeah, I don't think there's one I think I o honestly kind of directors think they know the story that Well, I think they know the story they want to tell and then the story reveals itself to them. To as to be so But it's like, you know, the experiencing of a story and an adventure or whatever, ⁓ is so much different than sort of talking about it. Uh-huh. Especially when people get under pressure, you know, when when challenges face them, it's sort of really much it just becomes on like what what they do. I mean, I've definitely been, you know, in in people's houses or in their spaces or out out in the wild with them or something and you just you realize like this is really about us. It's really about them as much as it is about the thing. It's never about the thing. You know, you're following the people. Yeah. You know, the people are carrying the story and their desire forward. And so you end up following that. You know, all the time. I mean it's the same with narrative, right? And i absol well, if it's done well. Yeah. When it's not done well, that's the problem. And have there been stories where have there been documentaries you've worked on where you get I mean, y you get emotionally involved with what you're shooting and it and it becomes hard to actually continue to do, you know, what you need to do? Always pretty emotionally involved, I think. not Not to where it's hard. Definitely where you I I've been in situations where you would be in a room with people and you're sort of, you know, your empathy is like through the roof because you're like feel for what they're going through and you're trying to sort of say, like, I want to be of service to the person. I need to be of service for the film. And you start making decisions ba you know, sometimes it's like you know, being in the room with somebody going through something, you're impacting their decision just by your presence. That's sort of what I was wondering in a weird way. And so once I realized weigh on you, right? Well, I'm sorta like, well, I can't not be here. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so I I was doing this film about women who were, you know, in prison and I followed them out of prison for a l quite a while. They were drug addicts, they were prostitutes, you know, they had terrible childhoods, all this stuff against them, you know, and they come out and they're like, We're here we are, you know, and they're living in a in a house and they're trying to get back on their feet. And I remember being in the room with them sometimes 'cause I spent so much time with them just by myself. And I was like, I would leave and I was thinking like I think just my present s ⁓ helped them make a better choice. ⁓ Interesting. In a way that is the I mean, like I didn't tell them to make a better choice, but I think they're not there. Yeah, you know, and they knew me, like we talked. Yeah. You know, because you you know, it's sort of like you know, I think the strictly observational documentary to me is very interesting. But it also feels like you're just taking from them. And I don't know that I really like that aspect of it because I think our presence, you know should at least let them know we care. We're not here to just take, exploit, anything like that. I don't think people do that too much anymore, but it's out there. I've seen it. And so, you know, your presence helps. I think then you build a relationship with them as a subject. But they shouldn't feel like the subject. They should feel like I have a camera. I'm using all the tools, the lighting, everything to help you tell your story so other people can hear it. And I think you know, that becomes their value sometimes. Like a lot of these women felt like they had no value. Like they had no real they didn't know how to operate in the real world. They walked around and they felt like everybody knew that they had been through all these terrible things. And I and I remember just thinking like just telling their story has so much value to to everybody, whether they're like them or not like them. You know, and I talked to the one woman about it after that. And I remember later on she was like, you know, I never had thought about it like that. That's very helpful. you know, f moving forward. And so you do have an impact on people through the making of the film. ⁓ for sure. But I think my you know, I don't I don't steer, you know, anything what, you know, but but I'll tell them like let's say we're doing a steady cam shot and I'm like, you know, hey, I want to do this shot, you know, and you know, here's why. What do you think? Mm-hmm. Do you think that would be cool? Do you think that's something we could do together? Yeah. It becomes like a little art project. Yeah. Yeah. Because it becomes like well, you're collaborators at that point. As opposed to just a subject. And I and I asked them, is that a part of your story? This is what I'm picking up on. Is that a part of your story that's important? And do you think this is a good way to articulate it maybe? ⁓ yeah, that's actually pretty cool. ⁓ that's cool. You know, so it's like because I think our job is to sort of like help them tell their story. Sometimes it is to just document it some you know, depending on what it is. You know, if you're on a you know, a c a kayak thing down a way, you know, you're documenting the thing, you know, but if you're, you know, dealing with an addict or, you know, someone who's been a gunshot victim or something, like it's a different story. And that's what's so fascinating is trying to figure out like now I have the same tool, new story, new people with real stakes. You know, and that to me is just feels like a real cool use of my time. Do you have if I were if we were to ask you to name five of your favorite documentaries that everybody should see. ⁓ man. ⁓ putting you on spot. You know, one of the things that impacted me first was Woodstock. ⁓ wow. because I was into music and I just loved the freedom that they filmed that with. And I remember specifically watching that when I was younger in high school and watching the guys on stage with cameras and I was kinda like, man, they were they they put that whole thing on. It was less about Woodstock and the music for me. It was more about they did an endeavor and they just did it. Yeah. So it was very much the let's pack up our stuff and head out and see what happens. Just put your head down and move forward. Yeah. And I I really took away from that. ⁓ that was good. The one the earliest thing I really remember, older one was ⁓ the conquest of Everest. And it was about Edmund Hillary and Tanzig Norway climbing. And I remember watching that in college relentlessly. And just thinking that there was something about the film and there was something about them that was like came together and like very it it just felt like the film and them were like one thing. It didn't feel and that's what that you know, and I liked I had already been in the outdoors and stuff, so it just very much felt like that's what it didn't feel like a film about it, guys. It felt like the film was the event. You know, ⁓ and that was pretty cool. ⁓ a thing that hit me later on was Dogtown and Z Boys, the skateboard documentary. I remember watching that. It was the first thing that I had seen a non-traditional dock that had style and music and timing and pacing that was so unleashed feeling. I think it was, you know, at the time when I was finding film and learning how to run around with the camera in two thousand one. And sort of getting into this whole world and I saw and I had seen so much like nature documentaries and kind of traditional things and I saw that and I was like, ⁓ this is this is really great. You know, like I just loved the style of it. Recently I watched a documentary that kind of did the same thing for me called Ten Thousand Days on Earth about Nick Cave. ⁓ wow. ⁓ that's one I I really find stylistically very cool. I think documentaries, like there's so many good stories out there. Kid Stays in the Picture. You know, there's so many cool stories out there that I love. But it seems like they're having a little bit of a moment right now, but they're also some of them are veering into sort of like almost true crime ⁓ kind of things in a way. Is there some that I turn on and I'm like, ⁓ this is a really interesting story and then it's just like, No, this is just sort of exploitative for for I mean, you know. Cartel Land, like any of the I mean an outdoor adventure doc at you know, travel, stuff like that's always great, you know, in my case. But I think 10,000 Days on Earth was cool style. Like I'm always looking at these docs to be like, how do they a documentary to me is as much of a narrative as a narrative is. You know, it's still a story. It's it's a real situation. You have to craft this stuff. You know, you're you're you're you're not always following something. Sometimes you're digging deep, you're reflecting, you're pulling stuff out of the past, you know, you're, you know, trying to project into the future a little bit. I mean, you know, there's very much the following nature of possibly a following nature of a documentary, but you know, sometimes it's, you know, a reflective thing and a historical thing. And and the Nick Cave documentary, I'm not a big fan of his music, I guess, but I think after that I was more. But that was a very cool film because it was just so different. And it's sort of like Testing the boundaries of what could be done in a dock stylistically. Woodsock Conquests of Everest Wood, you these are they all like have this similar, like they're unique in their style. And I like that about those. So, you know, I watch a lot of narrative things too. Shows, but you know, I watch a lot of different things. I listen to a lot of different music and I'm always sort of trying to draw on that stuff, you know, here and there. And it doesn't always happen because a lot of times I'm also just trying to like make the most of the thing we're in and not hold an idea so hard that I can't see the opportunity that's in front of us, you know, because sometimes that happens too. It's like I know what the shot should be, and then I show up and I'm like, you know, if you're too closed off and you're grappling with that idea, then you there is no room to sort of never want to ha lose an opportunity that's in front of me that to build something or collaborate on a new idea because I have the idea so locked in and And I've been on a lot of things where you know, the DPs are the directors or somebody's got this idea and there's definitely a better thing in front of us because now that we're here and we're all here and the light's different and this is different and all the things are happening and we see the costume or whatever. I'm like, let that idea inspire us, but let's not hold on to it so tightly that we can't seize an opportunity that could be more interesting or much better. Something that's our yeah, that that's come up in the moment. Which ⁓ I mean we've all we've all been there. ⁓ sometimes it sometimes it's allowed to happen and sometimes it's not. Yeah. ⁓ but ⁓ so I y you drove you drove up here from Baltimore because ⁓ you've been gracious enough to include me in a project that you're starting. Tell us tell us about that. Or not starting, you're in the middle of, I guess, or you're somewhere in the journey of and if this is starting, I gotta I shouldn't say starting. Yeah. No ⁓ yeah, thank you. so I approached Garrett Brown ⁓ The inventor of all the cool things that we use, the steady cam, the sky cam and dive cam, Moby Cam, and the fly cam. And we and I approached him and like, man, that's probably it had to be like 2014 or 2015. ⁓ was that long ago? I didn't remember. And I was at his house and I had worked on this idea about a documentary that was it that demonstrated the effect of the steady cam. Mm and the effect of his all his work. Well, you're saying you you you had worked on something? I had like curated the idea in my head and I had written it down. Yeah. And I brought it to Jake Kilroy and I was like, I have this idea and he was like, D you can ask him, but he's not gonna do it. He's everybody asked him to do a doc about him and he's just ⁓ yeah. He said like everybody's asked me, you no and everyone was like, It's not gonna happen. And I'm like Does he does he say why he would say no? I don't know, I don't think he told me. I I no, I don't think he ever told me My guess is knowing Garrett is he would be concerned about s someone getting it wrong. Well, a hundred percent. Yeah, that well that's definitely the case. Yeah. I mean he's probably concerned about that with me, but but I brought him the idea and I told him this is what it is and I think I must have said the right things because he was like, I'd never say yes to this but yes, like Write up a treatment, work on it. And I and I remember thinking like great. We got the green light from Garrett to make a doc about Garrett. Like, how did I get here? I'm screwed. And I thought, well, shit, now I really gotta figure this thing out. And so I kinda went home for a couple of years and was like, What am I what is this film? What is it? Like I knew I knew what I wanted the film to do. Uh-huh. Because I know for me what Garrett inspired what I was inspired by him. I see a lot of myself and him or him and me or something, whatever that is. And so I knew what was important to me, but I just didn't know what the film was gonna be. So I I knew what I wanted it to achieve, I guess. And so I really had to figure out like, well, I don't know how that's gonna happen. Mm-hmm. So I just thought about it and thought about it and did some writing and like, you know, I didn't need to do the research and whatever and and so you know it wasn't until maybe twenty eighteen or twenty seventeen I started really writing a treatment out and a deck and sort of trying to figure this thing out and and like you know made a sizzle reel and tried to like dial in what this story is and that was like twenty twenty. Mm-hmm And then we took it the sizzle reel and I had the deck and we went back to his house and we showed him the sizzle reel and he like broke down. He like got he like got it's if it's the one I saw, it's amazing it's like Yeah, it was early version and and he you know and he was like this is it, this is amazing and whatever and we were like, Man, that's good. Okay, cool, we're on the right track. Like we didn't you know, we still got the green light, you know? And ⁓ and then even then I remember thinking this is not the film, you know, like this is like a piece of the film, but it's not the film. And I would say that was twenty twenty and then we w went through some iterations and worked on it and we were trying to raise money, you know, and everybody was like, ⁓ you're gonna raise the money right away and Yeah, it seems like a no brainer, but of course nothing's a no brainer, right? It's COVID, you know, and I think, you know, a lot of the directives of the streamers and stuff change all the time of what they're into. They're projecting out, they're scheduling for three years out, like whatever they're doing. And ⁓ you know at the time, you know, we we were just trying to shop this thing around and everybody thought it was gonna get picked up and I was a little bit I was I was excited, but I was you know, it sort of gets swept up in everybody else's opinion. But I was very like, Man, I still don't know if I know what the thing is. And Is it the kind of thing because I think I would be this way, is it the kind of thing that you're a little afraid of because it it is something that is so Dear to you, that you don't wanna you don't wanna stumble and get it wrong? No, I'm not afraid of it. I just you know, I didn't know what it was. Mm-hmm. That was all. I wasn't afraid of it at all. I was more of like, I know it's there. I just can't like I'm mining for it. You know, like it's like I know the thing is in the sand somewhere and I just can't find it. I just can't find it. And it's probably not even that deep. And so I I really it's odd, man, because I I thought about this. I mean, I'm saying like I thought about this thing every day. ⁓ bet for multiple hours a day. Every day. For like the past six years. Wow. Like I don't think there is a day. I mean, I can think of very few days where I didn't think about it. Yeah. Because I might have been doing something else. But I mean, like, it is just constantly there. I do I I know that, you know, whatever comes out will be good. And so anyway. You know, fast forward, like we finally found an investor for the movie. And so we have a little bit of money to make the film now. ⁓ had you ⁓ before you got the investor, had you had you started interviewing him at all or you were waiting. ⁓ okay. So I got a camera. Yeah, I started interviewing him almost just for like more information to like get him comfortable with me. Like, you know, I went to his house and I set up lights and I you know, did my DP thing and he was like, ⁓ you need a fill light. I don't like the way this looks. I look old. I'm like, well, you are old, you know? And and I was like, What do you want to DP the movie, Garrett? And so, you know, it was very fun. And we were, you know, we went on his boat and, you know, collected a lot of good things. And it was all kind of me sort of, you know, feeling around in the dark a little bit, I think. And it wasn't until literally like This year where I finally like even like the past maybe I would say two months where I've really understood like that of what the film is now. And now I'm like, okay, now I can go make the thing. But interesting. But I mean I and I I wonder that, you know, what's interesting to me is that I've been wanting to make this for so long, but I didn't know what it was. And then we got the money and I know what it is now. And it's sort of like ⁓ Like, thank God we didn't get it because it's so it's been so hard to figure out what this thing is. Thank God you didn't get what? The money to do it in twenty twenty. Because I don't know that I would have made the You would have gone down the wrong road, basically. I just I mean, maybe I would have figured it out. Okay. But I don't know that I would have because I think my priorities were a little different. I was less mature. Yeah. You know, there was definitely, you know, the the sort of like I wanna make a s you know, we're making a film about a s a guy who made tools so we can tell stories. It better be a good story. And I didn't want it to be an A to B to C film. And now I sort of understand how I think I can get around that and make something great. And so part of that is we have to document th what happened and the effect of the tools and on people's careers and a community and the sort of opportunities that I think, you know, these inventions provided filmmakers with some freedom and some instruments to go make their films better. You know? And I don't know that like I don't know where we'd be without some of the stuff he made and some of the precedents he set. And I think it's in everybody's face all the time. I just think it'll be fun for people that are not in the film industry to meet this guy. And I hopefully it's like inspiring to them to say like man, I should just go try to figure it out. You know Well I think that's what that's what I sort of I mean, like you say, people who haven't met him, I mean his his I obviously have a place in my heart for him for a number of reasons, but he's also just the most interesting, charismatic, funny, bizarre. Like, he's larger than life on so many levels, right? ⁓ man. ⁓ and he's he's a great storyteller. ⁓ and it is the kind of thing where when you when you learn his story, ⁓ you realize like this was just like I'm I refuse to give up. And everything is telling me that I should. You know, so many times, right? And and and so many wrong turns and this and that and the other, but just not giving up, which I think I think there's a j that alone there's a tremendous amount of value in, right? And and when you know, when you think about it, I don't know if you agree, but I've always felt this way. I don't think there's one s singular person who's had as big of an effect on the way we tell stories in film as he has. I can't think of anything. I mean definitely directors, right? Well, but there are directors but but I'm saying he created something that literally changed the way that we the way that we make movies. And yeah, I think and it was one person. I mean there there are groups and you could say people created the Panavision cameras, unbelievable, but that's a group of people, do you know? Yeah, he definitely created the thing. And I ⁓ you know what's funny is I I was telling somebody the other day who's not in the industry about the film and I'm like I was like I think he kind of invented the guitar. You know, like I said, that's like the closest thing I can get to because it's an instrument that can sort of like you know, people can learn to artistically play, technically play. It emits some sort of sound in a way that is a story and an emotion and it does this and it can be dynamic, it can be quiet, it can be loud, it can be all these things. I was like, that's the kind of thing that it is to me. Uhhuh. And it's interesting to me because I grew up playing guitar and I love the steady cam for all the same reasons. And I feel like it just kind of replaced it for me. Yeah. You know, and so I that's the closest sort of thing I can get to as like a metaphor. No, I like I like that as a metaphor. That's really great. And then and then, you know, as you said that I thought, yeah, and like it's like Eric Clapton would be nothing without the guitar, and the guitar would probably be nothing without Eric Clapton or, you know, whoever you want to put in there, right? Right. ⁓ so I think there's a little bit of that too, right? Because then it's like and that's that's w you and I have talked about this. The part of the beauty is look, he created this thing, but but then but then he gave it. You know, he he said, No, let's let's like get a big tent and bring everybody in who wants to do this 'cause we'll all make it better. And and and that's sort of the larger beauty of it, I think sometimes is is that he achieved that because then you got people, you know, like like Ted Churchill and Larry McConkey and and and on and on and on, who just kept on raising the bar. Yeah, the tons of guitar players that go out and like make better music than we ever make, you know. Exactly. And it's fun to see. And that's why I like teaching because it's like, you know, I taught guitar growing up a bit, and it's like seeing people catch the bug of like, ⁓ I know what this is now. You know, that sort of little bit of wake up where you put it on, you're like, ⁓ this is weird. I don't know how to do this, and and then you get like three seconds where it's like, ⁓ everything was working. Yep. You know, and like, ⁓ I felt like everything was moving at the same speed and like the frame was like, you and you're like when you see a student hit that moment. Yeah, and you're like seeing it. And you and it just clicks and it's like two seconds, three seconds, and you're trying to get ten, and then you're trying to get a minute. And it sort of becomes this like tightrope walk that you're always doing. And once you get that little like, it's like a drug where you're like, Can I do this? For a while. Like, and then and then it's like, okay, now I know how to use this thing. Ask me to do something. You know, and then you're like, ⁓ that's good. That's somebody else's idea. Let me see if I can bring their thing. And then you start to become, you know, you know, it sort of becomes your instrument where you're like, tell me what you want me to play and like I can do it. Technically right, I can do it artistically right, I can create emotion with this thing, I can go slow, fast, all the things, all the nuanced stuff becomes part of your little bag of tricks. And it's so much fun watching students that, you know, get that little thing in the week that they click and they figure it out. And also like when I'm teaching it, I learn so much more about what I'm actually doing. ⁓ And then it's just great because I get to hang out with my friends and people that I learn from and listen to you and listen to Dave Emmerich and see like, you know, Harhoff and other people come in and do, you know, a little bit of time with each person and Garrett comes in and at the at the workshops. Yeah, at the workshops. It's just it never gets it I never It's so exciting every time. And I find that there's very few things I can repetitively do that are exciting every time. I totally understand what you're saying. Well, it's funny, there's so many things I think about as you're saying that. Number one is and I've said this before, it's like I don't play golf, but I have gone to like the driving range and I'm terrible. But I do understand that thing and study camps very much like that is a per you know, you you you connect with the ball and it goes Well, for me, really far. And you go, ⁓ I totally get this. And then you can't do it for like thirty balls and you're like this is horrible. And then you connect again and you're like, ⁓ wait. Yeah. But I've seen that look on on students' faces where they get like those three steps where they're like, ⁓ and then it then it's gone and you're like, Okay, it's but you'll get back there. Like it's gonna happen. Yeah, each but and and the other thing that I always loved about, you know, I I took the class in Ninety three, ninety two or whatever. and ⁓ I took an EFP class when they had them and then I took the the Malibu Classic Workshop and it was just like all these operators who I didn't know because this is pre-internet, so I was like, I don't know who any of these people are, but like, ⁓ wait, you said you worked on this, I saw that. Like I was like, ⁓ you're these are big people. They were showing up and they were like, No, you don't hold it like that, you hold it like this, like you wanna do this and they and it it was like you're giving away all your secrets and then I realized like, ⁓ there aren't any secrets, like this is just Everybody's sharing their way of doing it because they're hoping that they'll learn something or they'll teach me and I'll do it better. There was just this like big tent mentality. Yeah. And it's the same thing like you were saying, like these operators show up and they'll I mean, huge operators will walk in for a day and go, Hey, come on out, let's go over here, I'll show you how to do this or whatever to some student who's never, you know, never been in a film set before. Yeah, I mean I mean I think there's this sort of thing that You know, I'm very competitive in a way, but with this stuff, it's like you're not because you like I like to compete when I play tennis or whatever, you know. But like when I'm doing this, it sort of feels like I could you know, we could teach one student every single thing we know and get them good, but they'll never do it like us. No. Well and I love that. I'm like, do it like you. Like that's what you want them to do is like find your own version of this thing. Find your language and yeah, yeah. That's such a cool thing. And I think In the entire industry, I feel like that's sort of a thing that can get applied everywhere, which is like teach people can teach each other how to do so many different things and like let them no one's everybody's gonna do it different, you know? And like if you bring yourself to the thing, then it's yours, you know? It's like you can't, you know, no one can do it like you, no matter what you teach ⁓ And I I do have friends that are in the industry that feel like, ⁓ you're teaching these workshops are gonna take our jobs. I'm like No, what really? Like I don't I don't think so. Like and you know what? Then then good for them. And by the way, if they're that ambitious then they then they should. And that's you know, then then it's my time. But ⁓ yeah, I was just thinking as you were saying that there it's like I think part of that becomes there are wrong ways to do a shot, but there's no right way to do a shot. Like you're gonna do it a little differently, like your push in is gonna be slightly different than mine. My and they're gonna say different things and and you know, they're gonna have a different language and it is that thing of you finding your own language there. But ⁓ That's a good that's a really good way to put it that there is no right way, but there is definitely a wrong way. Yeah, there's definitely a wrong way, which is like, well, you didn't even have them in frame. That's clear. Yeah, right. But yeah, but there's just there's nuances and everything. And even even when we're doing a shot, you know, like you'll do 16 takes or something, hopefully not. Maybe you do five takes or whatever. But th they're never gonna be exactly the same, right? Even if you're trying to, they're not gonna be the same because your cadence is gonna be different. I don't know if you have this or not, but I mean, I've been doing this for thirty-five years. I can't tell you how many how many hours I've flown a study cam. I have no way to calculate that, but it's it's thousands. And I will walk into a workshop, because it's usually one of the only times I see this, and I'll walk into a workshop and I'll see, you know, like David Emmerich or Chris Harhoff or you or anyone there flying a study cam and look at it and go, That is really cool. Yeah. Like I still I when I see it I'm like, Wow, how does it do like I mean I know how it does it, but it's still like that shouldn't be like that. Do you get that? Yeah, that's what I was saying about that first time I saw it is that when I see somebody do it, I'm still like Man, the thing is so beautiful. It is yeah, there's something flying out, but like what are they doing? You know, it's like or like or I'm like, ⁓ my god, look at how they move. Like I don't you know, I like there's certain people that move like the steady cam and then the steady cam fli you know, it's like And then there's people that it's almost like there's people that are just like walking around and and then the thing's doing the thing. And I'm like, ⁓ man, it's so inter it's so everybody's different and everybody's bodies are different, their postures different, and nobody starts in the same place and some people are stronger than others or taller and it's just so cool to see somebody and that's why I go back to the guitar is like it's ⁓ you know, it doesn't discriminate really, you know, against, you know, and like It's fun to watch people show up who perceivably are inexperienced, maybe are don't have a good sense of composition and all the things that are required to make a nice shot. And by the end of the week, they have like these skills emerging that they didn't even know they had that that may send them in another direction altogether, you know, and it's like so fun. It is kind of amazing, especially when you get those people on like day one who at the end of the day one, they're just like, I can't do this. And it's just like, no, just stick with it. Well, I'm sticking with it. I but I just I'm worried I can't do And then day four, you're like, remember day one? Yeah. When you said you could like look look at what you're doing now. You just like you just successfully like, you know, did a did a roundy and came one eighty into a close up or w or whatever. Is it's so cool to see that. Yeah. ⁓ and it kind of r ⁓ it's it's one of those things that whenever I I'm at one of the workshops and I teach, I just It reminds me of how how much fun this all is, which is it's just at the end of the day, I think why we s all stick with it. I think that's it. I think the other thing aside from the tool is that, you know, a lot of my friends came because of Steady Cam, but they're not my friends because of Steady Cam. You know, like I'm not friends with you because we both do Steady Cam. That just brought us together. Yeah. And that like I think about how many of my friends do that and I think about other careers and other people. It's like I don't know that bankers hang out with other bankers all the time. I mean, I'm sure they do like by default, but probably not, you know, and I'm like, man, I talk to my Steadicam mates all the time. You know, not about Steadicam. They're j it's a similar it's a type of person. It's just like the doc my friends that were working docks and travel and, you know, like we it's just similar personalities that are drawn to these things. and and there are different people. Yeah, and it's just it but it's it's fun because it really is such a unique smart, smart, really smart, ⁓ sharp group of people that do this for some reason, I think. You know, it's yeah it takes a lot of persistence, it takes discipline and it takes, you know, artistic you know, intuition and like you have to be aware and you have to be able to communicate and all these I mean you don't have to, but definitely the better operators I think are really keyed up on all those things. And I I think they're interesting to be around. Well and I think there's something to you you you you sort of you sort of hit on something there which is this is not something that you get good at. It's not easy to get good at this. And I think that There's a certain type of person who doesn't give up on it, you know, and and Garrett, by the way, yeah s leading that charge of going, I can't figure this out, but I'm gonna figure this out. I I think there I think there's a lot to that. And that may that may be why a lot of us sort of, you know, stick together and whatever. I was just thinking as you were saying that there's probably not a week goes by that I don't send Buzzmoyer some really terrible pun in a text and then he sends it back to me and then You know, we usually get Lisa Cine in there and and and the three of us are going round and round and it's just stupid, but it sort of, you know, it connects us. Yeah, it really it's ⁓ it is. It's fun. And I mean, it's a language too, you know, like the language of of shots and steady cam, whether you're, you know, n even not a steady cam operator. I mean, it's like, you know, and even, you know, like working with a really good dolly groups, like they kind of have the same mentality for composing a shot and stuff like that. It's just it's yeah, it's really cool. And, you know, for me it's it's something I didn't expect. So I feel very grateful to to do it and to be a part of it. And, you know, you know, to sort of wonder like, you know, what am I not doing? Like what else is out there? And, you know, all that stuff. You kinda like, you know, it's easy to just keep going in the same direction and take one thing after the next, but it's sort of like, well, what else is there? Like that I don't know about because someone opened this door for me, thank God. Like, is there another door that somebody could open or I could open that go somewhere else? Like it's that's what's kind of fun about this career for me. It's like it was a bit of an accident, I think. So ⁓ we didn't say the name of the documentary, which is ⁓ thank you, Mr. Brown. ⁓ which, you know, ⁓ We're basically where we are right now is I've shot some interviews and your the first interview after Garrett. I'm sort of ⁓ I wish you hadn't told me that. Yeah. Yeah, no. Although although I'm happy to be your guinea pig 'cause then it means the other ones will be that much better because you'll figure out what I'm doing wrong. No, it's not definitely not gonna be you. ⁓ I think you're equipped for the interview ⁓ more than I am. And so, ⁓ but yeah, and so we'll you know, my goal is to have this done in a year and ⁓ you know, make something that captures Garrett's story but and uses his story to like inspire other people. That's You know, to g to go do whatever. And and I think hopefully, you know, I think what I learned is like there is the matters of Garrett's story that go through the film. But then there's like the story of the inventions that that other people use and do things with. And then there's sort of like this little layer on top of like my, you know, purpose for trying to get other people to go do the thing that Garrett did on top of that. So it's been it's been a really interesting thing. It's very it's been super challenging for me because it's not a follow documentary. and it's not a an adventure thing. It's not an outdoor thing. And it's like it's fifty years of history and movies that I can't com comprehend. And, you know, it's it's an industry I can't see all the way into and whatever. So it's just been really a bit complex to sort of try to you know outline this thing in some sort of structure that feels like a movie that everybody could watch. Yeah. So we'll see. I'm looking forward to it. Well good luck with it. I will put ⁓ put some information on the website on the webpage. Yeah. ⁓ and thank you for doing this. This was a blast to sit down and talk with you. I mean you and I are going to talk more for the other thing tomorrow. But ⁓ but this was great. I'm gonna I'm gonna leave you with the question that I leave everybody with and you can take us out with it. ⁓ advice For someone getting into the business today on how to succeed, andor something you've learned along the way that you wish you knew early on? I think the thing that has come to me recently in the past five years is there's no straight line to success. Everybody has like their own path, and everybody a lot of people will say, ⁓ you should do this. You should make a short before you write a long thing. You should do this. Like, you know, and maybe they've done the thing that you want to do or maybe they haven't done the thing you want to do, but they're still giving advice. And I think the thing that I realized was that I'm looking for a map all the time to go forward. And I think you just make the map as you go. there's not really a map out there, there's not a handbook, there's no strategy, you know, in terms of like, ⁓ you should do this and this will lead to that. Like things just happen as you start to take action. And I think the faster and sooner you sort of put a dot on the map and then try to get there. And then once you get there, try to put another one, then your journey starts to move a little bit. If you wait for someone to come ask you out and put a dot on a map for you and then you go say yes, like that's fine too. That'll happen. But I think the best thing is to sort of say, like, I want to do this, so I'm just gonna try to do it. And then you start moving yourself a little bit. I think that's the secret is like consistently trying to do that thing ⁓ and not look for the answers before you go. Like the answers will come. I wish I would have known that because I think I I sort of prevented myself from sort of, you know, doing some writing and some other things I wanted to eventually do. And I was like, well, I need to figure out how to do this. And I'm, you know, that's not what I do. And, you know, now I'm starting to take a lot more action than I used to because I realized that that's what's going to bring the results. And I think, you know, maybe other people know that. It was new, a little bit news to me. and I think it's just sort of like, you know, you have to kind of go out there into the unknown a little bit and see what happens. And I think it's taking the workshop. It's you know, if you're trying to be a steady cam operator, it's just writing the script that you have an idea for and if it's terrible it's still script, you know, and then you learn how to make another one, ⁓ or be a photographer, you know, and I think, you know, those build skills, but it also gives you experience, but also just moves moves you forward. And so I think my advice would be to don't think too much, just kind of start doing stuff and little things add up very quickly, you know. ⁓ And s and maybe don't look for like the map that has the answers to get you to the next thing, like just kinda go. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.