Dave C: On today's episode, we'll talk about the importance of layers, the art of B camera, snowfall, arrested development, and of course, the origins of the camwak. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website, theop.io, is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Like it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Victor 30 Echo Tech Team. Hey Mark. Hey, Mark. Can we set? Action. Hello and welcome back to the Out Podcast, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I'm Dave Komitis, your host, and ⁓ coming to you over the internet today with a friend in Los Angeles, Mr. Patrick Rousseau, ⁓ who is a cinematographer, but ⁓ I sort of ⁓ ran into him when he was an operator. And actually, ⁓ I don't know if he knows this, but he's he's been mentioned many, many times on this show. And ⁓ I I I I guess he probably knows why, but I'll explain it when we get there. some of his ⁓ credits, but not all by any mean, as an operator, Father of the Bride, Snowfall, Silicon Valley, Six Feet Under, Fate of the Furious, Oz the Great and Powerful, Easy A, Mad Men, Carnival, Arrested Development, as a cinematographer, Good Trouble, and I think like 30 some episodes of it, ⁓ the Mindy Project suburgatory which is not easy to say. ⁓ and ⁓ in ⁓ 2015 he was nominated for best cinematography ⁓ in the Seattle Shorts Festival. He's a he's a really talented operator, really talented cinematographer and a good guy. And I'm very excited to finally have him on the show after mentioning him for so long. So ⁓ Patrick thanks for thanks for coming on podcast. Thanks Dave. Thanks for having me. How's it going? How's it going now in LA? ⁓ it's good you know ⁓ sunny LA Continues to be. It's a little more muggy than it used to be. But that's what I heard. It seems like since I left, people are telling me there are mosquitoes and stuff. And I'm like, wait, what? In LA? Yeah. It's seventy percent humidity today. ⁓ my god. Yeah. Things are changing. But there's no climate change. Anyway, on to other things. ⁓ so tell me, wh how how'd you get into the business? What's your story? My my path is a circuitous one, ⁓ not one I'd recommend exactly, but I studied chemical engineering ⁓ in the Midwest. And got a job at a multinational corporation in San Francisco. And I'm like, get me out of the Midwest. I'll take it. I, you know, I didn't really think about it much. I was like, okay, San Francisco, yes, I'm in. But a job doing a job doing what? So as a chemical engineer, I was working at an oil company looking at ⁓ basically how to wrap. industrial steel around chemical processes to make them ⁓ you know ⁓ d industrial scale basically. Wow. And yeah. So it it was kind of interesting, but I realized a few years in, like, wait a minute, if I'm not careful, twenty-five years later I'm gonna be sitting at this desk at this same company and that I ⁓ I got I panicked. I was like ⁓ my God, I gotta come up with something. Wow. Okay. ⁓ and so ⁓ I ended up working there five and a half years. And after the five years, you get another week of vacation. So I got three weeks of vacation that year. And I ended up taking it all at once in a lump. And I thought, what the hell am I gonna do with my time? I'm in San Francisco. I didn't really have a plan. And I found a flyer for a super low budget indie film. That was just looking for volunteers. So I I go over there and they see that I have half a brain and they're like, You're in. And so so I work on my vacation on this thing, I have a blast. I don't know anything about movies except I I liked watching them. But I learned so much on that and I thought, ⁓ I was I was hooked. Wait, did you just do it 'cause you thought this will be fun, or did you do it because you thought I want to get into movie making, or you just this was like something out of left field? You know, I came from the Midwest where I never thought about movie making as a career. I didn't know that was a thing. But in being in San Francisco Bay Area for five years, you know, your world starts to open up and I realized, hey, wait a minute. I think there is a way to do this, even though San Francisco was a second tier city, it had production. I didn't know anything about it, but the moment I I saw that flyer, it was like, okay, I I gotta take this chance. I was wow just primed for ⁓ trying something new. Was it a feature or what was it? Yeah, it was a feature. I can't even remember what it was called. But ⁓ I I do remember the gaffer interviewed me and I knew I had an interview with a lighting guy, so I went out and bought a book about lights and you know, memorized as many names as I could and threw out the term baby baby or something during the interview. He said, You're hired. So so anyway, on that, ⁓ on that film, I met a guy who was working as a PA at the biggest commercial ⁓ production company in San Francisco. And he and I hit it off and he told me, hey, this company is looking for a new craft service person. And this was a time before, you know, they had specialized food people doing craft services, right? Before I was probably the last guy to to be like a, you know, PA type to do that job. Especially on commercials, right? I mean, yeah. And it, you know, they they trained me how to make it look nice and what to do, where to go to get the stuff, but still I was not that next level that we have today. Yeah. But ⁓ I had to interview against twelve people for this job. And I went back to work after the interview because I had to go back to work. I was on vacation. ⁓ I I followed up, some might say harassed the ⁓ production coordinator so much from my office at work that she said, fine, I'll give you a chance on one job. So it was a five-day commercial, and I had to call in sick for five days to do the job. And I knew it went well because the director owner of the company shook my hand at the end and said, Hey, I know you're new here. You did you did a good job. ⁓ that's great. Yeah. Yeah. And then they offered me the next job. And I I just without hesitation, I said, Okay, that's it. I went back to work. Everyone's like, Hey, how you feeling? ⁓ much better. Much better. Thank you. But I have to give you a one and a half week notice. I'm out of here. And they were kind of shocked. But then when they learned what I was doing, why I was doing it and the risk I was taking, they were vicariously living through it. It was kind of cool. I had people coming into my office that I barely knew congratulating me on the, you know, the new adventure. So that's so cool. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And they're they're basically like, Look, look, let us know how it is out there. Yeah, exactly. That's send letter. Yeah. Cause I think for a lot of people, Engineering may not have been certainly wasn't for me a passion. It was just a means to make a living and be a responsible citizen, whatever, right? Yeah. Now now at this point, do you have any idea what you want to do down the road? Or are you just going, I just I I I'm in the I'm in the I'm in the I'm in the world and I recognized I had my foot in the door, but ⁓ you know, that first craft service job, we were on a stage in San Francisco and the dolly grip wheels out. The dolly with the Panavision four to one on it. And I was like, that's it, man. I'm doing camera. That's what I that's what I gotta do. Cool. And so ⁓ because I was working at that, you know, the most successful, the top company there. ⁓ other LA companies that would come to San Francisco would get recommendations for PAs. I'd end up meeting a lot of different people. One of the people I met on a job was Rob Sweeney. And ⁓ he was assisting on a car commercial and I think the helicopter unit was taking over part of the day. So he had some downtime. So I chatted him up and he kindly listened to my story and ambition and said, if I were you, I would move to LA tomorrow. So 30 days later, I'm in a U-Haul driving down Sunset Boulevard ⁓ with all my stuff. And ⁓ the the the great button to the story and then of you know. I had to pound the payment. I didn't have any connections. I had to blind take resumes to production companies to try to get PA work. But some people, ⁓ like Russell Swanson, I never forget, he was an assistant that was working in San Francisco from LA and he said, Hey, if you're ever in town, ⁓ you know, look me up. So a lot of people gave me opportunities. And I think it was because ⁓ because I had five years of corporate experience, I wasn't just a twenty year old knucklehead, you know, I had I had gone through some maturation. I knew how to had a good work ethic. And so people saw that and gave me chances. And ⁓ the button to the story though is great. Fourteen years later, I get hired as the A camera operator on Six Feet Under. And the alternating DP is Rob Sweeney. So how cool. So I got to come full circle with him, see him go to DP and For me to be his eight camera operator was super rewarding. That's so great. ⁓ that's so great. So wait, what year did you move to LA? Ninety one. Ninety one. So this is pre internet, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yes, it was. So yeah. So so how'd you go about I mean, how'd you go about meeting people back then and and making connections? Like what do you do? Because now it's you know, it's you you Google and you what you whatever, but right, called email, whatever. But Yeah. You know, I had just enough experience in San Francisco and there were big names. I didn't have ton of jobs, but I had, you know, sprite commercials. I had you know, Don Peterman was the cameraman or or you know ⁓ you know I remember Dave Devlin was a gaffer on one of the music videos I did. So there there were all these, you know, I had I had something, you know, up to put on a piece of paper as a resume. And I just knocked on door after door after door of production companies handing out resumes and trying to get and also the few connections I'd made in San Francisco from LA, I really leaned on them to sure to to help me out. Did you did you just have like the LA four one one that that that that yellow pages of and go through there? That's right. God, that and a Thomas Guide. Remember that and a Thomas Guide, that's right. ⁓ but the four one one, I remember going through the DPs and calling them. And ⁓ and the thing with me was I was like, ⁓ please don't please don't pick up because then I'll have to talk to you. And then if they didn't pick up, I'd leave a message that'd be like, Sure, at least I called them. Like, you know, I called so and so some DP the first page. I remember I went through those exact things because it it was not fun to to do that. It's terrible. Yeah. But but I got just enough PA work and and like I said, because I'm a little bit more mature than than the twenty year old PA, maybe, I kept getting the next gig. So And and and basically did you go on those jobs and then whenever you could start talking to camera people or how'd you how'd you get into camera like that into it? I ⁓ what I did was I I I did my homework ⁓ as much as I could. And I I really I gotta thank the Peterman family because ⁓ John Francis, the the the owner and director at this company in San Francisco, would hire Don Peterman and his sons as the camera department, and they were top Hollywood. People and who were his what was this what were the son's names? Jay and ⁓ Jay and Keith was the operator. And those guys ⁓ took me under their wing because they saw the passion that I had and they sh showed me the ropes. So when I was a PA and the sun was going down, ⁓ you know, I'd see some first assistant go, Hey, ten to one, you know, and so I notice, ⁓ he's got the five to one on. I bring the I bring both cases and they look at me and go, ⁓ okay. Hey, thanks, kid. You know, we're keeping him. Yeah. Yeah. The little things like that that showed that, you know, okay, this guy's paying attention. ⁓ helped me get and I took the traditional route. It was ⁓ camera PA, loader, second, first, optic. And and I only ask this, I mean, ⁓ because I think for people who are listening, ⁓ th there's there's that when you're in that position, right? Like you're you're in the you're a PA, but you really but I really wanna be Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. In this case, camera, right? There's that fine line of you want people to know, but you don't want you don't want to push it too hard, right? Because like, but I am a PA. Like I'm, you I'm I'm I gotta do my job. But but you want to ask a question, but you don't want to ask at the wrong time. You know what I mean? Like, right. Did you experience that at all? ⁓ I I was probably n overly nosy, ⁓ but I didn't really I didn't I didn't notice that in myself too much. I think You know, these days I I see people come up and say stuff like that, like, ⁓ I'm interested in camera, and then they don't ask me any questions all day. And it's like that's you know, that that tells me something too, you know. So I'd rather have the person that is passionate and ask me one too many questions rather than be so passive that they don't engage too much. I'm kind of the same way 'cause like usually when I meet those person, I go, Yeah, come over and like if I'm on the wheels or whatever, like try to and and then if they come over at the wrong time, I'll always make sure to go, hey, not a good time, but come back and ask me that question. Like just, you know, it's totally cool. I'm fine with it, you know. And yeah, and and if they don't, I usually try to seek them out 'cause it can't be intimidating, right? Like if people don't You it's it's a little But I I I go out of my way when I see somebody 'cause I know where I came from, you know, I say, Hey, you know, ⁓ don't be shy to ask me questions. If I have time, I'll spend the time and and work with you. So it's an open door. Come come to me. Absolutely. Absolutely. So so ⁓ so you said ⁓ w ⁓ so w wha how did you get your first loading job? Was it with this same group where they finally said let's give them a chance or Yeah, I think ⁓ I ended up working as a loader right before I left San Francisco because the Petermans ⁓ w wanted me on they had stage days where they wouldn't I I forget, maybe do did they not get a second and they just hired me as a loader. I can't remember but but I d I did get my loading ⁓ days in San Francisco and then So I came to LA with a little bit of skill knowing, you know. And I also took I also took classes. Aeroflex used to teach ⁓ workshops about their cameras. So I would go and learn about all of the Airflex cameras and then I'd of course go to all the rental houses and on slow Tuesdays or whatever and learn how to thread the Panavision camera. And you know, you you definitely have to take initiative, especially back then. That's one of the things that I've told younger people now is like, look, it's slow right now. So if and when it picks up, like you kinda have no you have no excuse for not knowing everything there is to know about every camera that exists at this point. Cause you can go at the rental houses and they'll they'll help you out, right? They'll talk you through. Yeah. And when I was really serious about becoming an operator, I went to I you know, I prepped a lot of auto nemens back in the day when I was an assistant and I just would go there on slow days and get the wheels and a laser pointer and just work those wheels, work ⁓ work them, work ⁓ So I never had to think about which direction. So if I got the opportunity, I was ready, you know. Yeah. Now you so when you pulled focus, you were on the knob next to the camera, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we we had ⁓ what was the thing, the Barton box? Was that the like one of the early ⁓ Remote focus. Who's the Barton pot? Was that the one that was wired? Yeah, maybe. I sort of remember that. Yeah. Okay. There was some, there was some, you know, at the end of my first day seeing there were some remote stuff, but it wasn't like it is today. It was mostly so you were but my point being you were next to the camera operator the whole time. So you were listening to what they were saying and it was just so so lost, I think, at this point. Yeah. So sad. I I mean, I was on the whip when they were handheld, I was on the, you know, one foot whip. Yep. Running around with them? Absolutely. And I think I think I mean my guess is you were probably listening, but I think there's all this stuff that just it seeps in whether you want it or not. You just you sort of so when you make that jump, it's it's a little more it's a little softer, I guess, is the is the word I'm looking for. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember when you made the jump to operating? What it was on? ⁓ well, I d distinctly yes. So ⁓ I as a first assistant, I was working mostly in commercials. And two of my DPs, Carolyn Chen and David Stockton, knew that I wanted to work ⁓ as an operator. So they ⁓ they gave me chances when they had B camera and stuff like that. But to to get into narrative was a whole different thing. And somehow a gaffer that I'd work with called me. He had just gotten a cable TV show called Good Versus Evil. ⁓ USA network and ⁓ it was non union, it was low budget, but he needed an operator. So he hired me and ⁓ the show turned union. So I got in that way. Wow. So that was a crit that was a critical, of course, ⁓ moment for me. ⁓ unfortunately he didn't last. They let him go, but ⁓ I guess they liked my work enough that it kept me on. I I got to meet the next cinematographer, Michael Grady. And we went on to do some other stuff after that too. and do were you do were you on A camera on that or B camera or B camera? Only one camera? B camera? I was on B, yeah. Do you remember what the what what were the were there mental hurdles or operating hurdles or whatever? Do you remember what what was the hardest part of sort of making that jump to operating? ⁓ anything stick out? No, not nothing. Well More when I I th what I remember more about this is you cer certainly there's the confidence factor, right? Not you know, second guessing yourself, should I pan at this moment or not? Let ⁓ play it or do I go with ⁓ You know, all all those conversations in my head as I'm operating almost every shot back then. But then when you when I moved to A camera ⁓ in two thousand one, Jim Deneau, good friend and colleague, ⁓ Gave me, for some reason, I convinced him to to let me be the A camera operator on a HBO movie called Real Women Have Curves. And it was a very successful ⁓ movie. And I learned a ton ⁓ on my first A camera gig. And you know, it's the classic thing where to be good at operator, you need to see layers of the image, right? And the first layer is the obvious one is the actor in the box. And that's what we all tend to look at when you first start. But then you have to look in the bottom right corner. What's that shiny thing in the bottom right corner? That's layer number two. That's a C stand leg. And there's a flag over there. And I made all those mistakes at first. And ⁓ Jim was kind and and he was a great mentor and and I learned a ton. But those are those that that's that one of those first early lessons, the layers that you need to see and focus, add that in too back then. And I think for anybody listening, it's important to point out we weren't you and I at that time also, we weren't on headsets at that point. So that's right. When you're rolling, it was the way excuse me for saying so, it should be. ⁓ which is you give it to the operator and the operator does their job. There's nobody in your ear going, You gotta you gotta tilt up. Why aren't tilting? You know, it it's and so so ⁓ so you did sort of struggle with like I should I should I frame for that person or like, you know, they're cutting that person to the back. What do I do? And you just have to make decisions, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I I think I don't know about you, but I think one of the big things for me that changed when I became an opera. Well I mean, I really kind of started out as an operator, did a little bit more before that, but when I got confident was when I just learned right or wrong, I have to commit. Like that is the biggest thing. It's because if I don't commit, it's wrong. It's not and if I do commit, it might be right and it might be wrong. But at least it's one. But there's a chance that it's right. Yeah, yeah. And so there and even now, I mean, I know I know now I do it. It's like there's that internal met this thing of like, I don't know, should I be a little t well, this is where I am. I'm just staying, you know. Yeah, yeah. Or or whatever. It's interesting. ⁓ you one thing about our job is you can't really rest on your laurels, right? Yeah, I st it like I questioned the some of these same questions still. As I'm rolling, God, should I be should I short frame him? Because the background's better. But are they gonna hate the short frame or not? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or the bigger thing is is like you're looking at it and you like the frame and you go, I wonder if everybody else hates this frame. Maybe this is like a terrible, maybe I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know. Why did these why are these people giving me this power? I have no idea what's going on. You know, it's that's funny you mentioned that because ⁓ and you'll understand this because it started on snowfall, but There was a run there of several years. I would say probably five or six years, where for one reason or another, probably due to ⁓ the creativity in the streaming shows, people were looking for more interesting frames. Right. But not everybody, but a lot. I just happened to fall into a series of shows that wanted. Short frames, they wanted architectural frames, they wanted high headroom, they wanted foreground, all this stuff. And some of us who were on good trouble would day play on other shows and we'd just automatically bring that to whatever we were day playing on, and people would be like, What the hell are you guys doing? You know? Tilt down. Yeah. It's so funny, but but I've fallen into that trap, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, ⁓ you want you want sort of normal. Okay. I guess I can I can force myself to do that. But ⁓ so since you brought up Snowfall, you you you may be aware of this, maybe you're not. ⁓ I have brought your name up several, several times on this show because was it season two that I came into Snowfall? Is that right? That's right. So Jody Miller was the opp the A operator there, and John Lindley ⁓ and Jeff Greeley were the D Ps. And and ⁓ Jody I don't know. I ⁓ I don't know. He had some reason he had to leave for like a month and a half or something like that. Yeah. Or maybe he was yeah. He wasn't available at the beginning, or I can't remember. Something like that. I don't remember. But and I came in and I remember calling John and going, you know, John called me up and I Yeah, sure, of course I'd I'll fill him for Jody and I'd love to. And he's he's amazing. And and and I said, Who's on B? And he Patrick Rousseau. I said, I don't know him. He goes, You're gonna love him. You're gonna love him. He's he's fantastic. And and he just couldn't say enough about you. And then and then I realized after I got there. Why everybody loved you? Because I've said this many, many times before. It's like we we would ⁓ Jess was on ⁓ you know, ⁓ pulling focus for me and and and we would we would come up with this shot that was like, you know, stepping off of a helicopter onto the roof and coming through the window down the stairs into the thing and following the gun and this whole huge thing would be like, This is great. And then I'd be look over and be like, Patrick, what you got? And you'd be like, like In the sink with a camera in the perfect place that told the entire story better than what we did. And I'd be like, ⁓ crap, Patrick's got such a better shot than I've got. ⁓ and it was always it was always so amazing. So I was I've I've I've shared that before because like I don't know what it was about you, but you were always coming up with these unbelievable shots. I just it's just my memory of it. And I just I I don't know, I don't know A if you're aware of that. That or and also is it just is it just sort of sitting back surgically and I mean, how does that happen? I don't know. Yeah. That's ⁓ you know, ⁓ a lot of things ⁓ converged at the right moment for that to happen for me. I was on a half hour comedy that was a great show, but it was super conservative. And I was like, Do I want to be the best over the shoulder operator in Hollywood? And so I was primed just like when I left the ⁓ corporate world. I was already primed to f take in the new thing, right? And so I was ready. So I think it was Mark Figueroa recommended me to Jeff Greeley. Jeff calls me, he goes, Hey, we're gonna do snowfall. And the first thing I think of is, God, it's gonna be night all nights all the time. And I'm on this cushy comedy on stage. But I said, ⁓ okay, yeah, I I I I'm available. And I had to leave that show. So it was a little bit of a decision. But And this was for s this was for season two so far or was it season before? Two. Okay. And gotcha. And and the reason I knew about Night's Coming is I'd har already heard about season one through the grapevine, right? So ⁓ but anyway, so arranged a meeting with John Lindley, the you know, the the main DP, and I thought to myself, Okay, I know how this is gonna go. He's got a great resume, he's an old timer, he's gonna say, All right. I'm gonna set all the shots. You'd never suggest anything until we talk about it. And I was I was fully prepared for that. The exact opposite happened. John Lindley goes, Look, we're gonna find something on A. I want you to find interesting visual shots on the B camera. Brilliant. I want you to look for them. I want you to find him. And I was just so ready for that. I was like, okay, I'm I'm down. Let's do it. And The first shot, yeah, I think you weren't there for the first shot of this of season two. I think it was Doctor. Yeah, 'cause I came in I came in like six weeks in. Jody had something. ⁓ but yeah. So maybe Doc was covering for a while. They I forget. There were th three three A camera operators. Doc was there for a couple weeks. He was there at the beginning. So I'm w I'm observing on the first shot and I see Doc in this small house that we're in, see three sixty with his you know, with his finder as he's looking I'm going, Okay, I got nothing here. Yeah. So I'm the new guy. I just I didn't want to be in the way. So I slinked off to the truck and ⁓ you know, just waited patiently there. And ⁓ it's fifteen minutes later, John Lindley's on the radio. Hey Patrick, ⁓ yeah, go. ⁓ in the spirit of what we talked about, see if you can find something here. And I thought, ⁓ man, this is a setup. This is a setup, a total list. And so ⁓ so I I concoct something with my team, my Dolly Grip, my my first AC and my second AC. And I had Megan Morris, my second AC. I had her watching the director's monitors where they were hidden in the kitchen, and she's trying to get a peek of the monitor. And I had her cue us when Doc's frame passed a little side room that we were hiding in. And then we scrambled out there as quietly as we could with a couple of apple boxes and the camera on a walk. on a seventy-five. And the moment I stabilize that thing, Damson walks into the frame. And I was like, God, at least I got something. You know, it w it wasn't the world's greatest shot, but I got something. And I know it was a test. I know Lindley was testing me to see. And then we gained, you know, we gained each other's trust quickly thereafter. And he gave I gotta credit him. He gave me the freedom to just go. And I thank you guys too, you and Jody, so many times would give me another 12 inches of your frame. You'd push in 12 inches so I could get a great shot versus a mediocre shot. And I that's very rare. I really appreciated working with you guys. Well that whole show, I walked into that and I was like, what the hell is going on here? This is like one of the best crews and they're doing interesting work. And by the way, for anybody who hasn't seen Snowfall, you should see Snowfall. It's on Hulu, I think. It's such an underrated show. Yeah. I ended up doing all of season six actually. And it's just They were doing interesting stuff and the the the acting is fantastic directing is fantastic. But but it was always amazing because it just like you know, I'd be doing a shot and I'd look around and be where's Patrick? It's like, ⁓ he's under the table. And you'd have some like amazing little piece, but it was but ⁓ now that I hear that it makes it all of that adds up now. ⁓ because but I but I think it it it's funny because I may be wrong, but I sort of feel like if in that first shot, You had been in there sort of like sticking your claim, like there are some B camera on opera like, ⁓ I'm over here. Like it it would that wouldn't have been the right thing to do. It's almost like unknowingly you played it correctly and then John said, Hey, let's see how he does. And ⁓ it's just that it's it's when you're the new guy on the B camera with John. I I you know ⁓ he he said what he said, but I was like, Okay, in a three sixty, I think I'm not gonna get anything here. But yeah. But he pushed. And I I gotta give a little shout out to ⁓ my friend and colleague Marco Farnoli, who's a great DP and a good friend. he helped me think outside the box. He's a gamer type of cameraman who's just up for anything. And coming up through a lower budget world, he found creative ways to get shots. And he helped me think outside the box. If I hadn't worked with him so much, I don't think I would have come up with this wacky scheme to be able to get that shot. So ⁓ that's great. ⁓ so that's another piece of the puzzle. ⁓ I also want to mention because you mentioned it and I actually forgot about this. You are the reason that I found out about the I call it the cam walk, you call it yeah the the walk. ⁓ because you had a walk with did you was it a metal bar on the top? I don't remember. Yeah, yeah. It was a flat metal bar with a quick release d drilled into it. Yeah, and I was blown away by it. And you were like, Yeah, someone made it for me. And then I I think I asked you about I said, Where'd you get it? And you were like, I don't know. And I said, Do you mind if I make one? And then I I made one and then some other people said they wanted them. So I ended up I think by the end of it, I ended up making them and selling them and I gave all the money to charity. ⁓ nice. And ⁓ I see them around. ⁓ yeah, they're around. Unfortunately, I kinda had to stop because the price of steel got so much that I'd be charging so much that nobody would would want them. Right. ⁓ I'm still trying to figure that out. But ⁓ because it was nice, like every time someone would do one to be like, ⁓ here's some more money to like, you know, ⁓ to to ⁓ to one of the the couple of charities that we threw him to. But ⁓ it was it it's weird because it's like it's got an eight percent usability, but in that eight percent it it does exactly what you needed. It's it's incredible. Yeah. So so you know, in in that particular shot in snowfall, I put I put the you know, I I I couldn't wheel a dolly out. There was no room in that house. ⁓ I didn't feel that handheld would cut with Doc's smooth steady cam shot shot. So the best thing I could come up with is a couple of apple boxes and that that walk and I could stabilize it just enough, even on a 75, because I've been used to operating on it. And it I think it worked. It's in the cut, so I guess it worked. That's fantastic. So so I have to pause right here and and and say the walk was Stolen, I think, from you know, you gotta steal from the best. ⁓ Steve Winden, the great Aussie DP, showed me the walk. ⁓ even on Fate of the Furious, we found places to use the walk. So amazing. So that's where you got it from. Well, ⁓ I have heard from people that it was ⁓ there was a version of it on the original Dukes of Hazard, that someone had taken a walk walk with a two by four that they nailed in the side. So this is clearly Something that people have thought of ⁓ here and there. But ⁓ yeah, ⁓ it's an amazing tool. so ⁓ so you you mentioned something I wanted to ask you about. So as you're watching take that shot for instance, or something I'm doing or whatever, as you're watching the A camera, are you thinking about where can I be, or are you thinking about what you think the cut is? Or are you thinking about both? I mean Yeah. So first thing I think of is okay, where's the A camera? What's the field of view? So that limits where I can be. And what side are they lighting from? Because that gives me one half of the playing field because I don't want to be on the the lit side, right? ⁓ so having a cinematography brain really helps find those shots too. And then of course, size wise, I want to give the editor a different size and I want to give them a different angle, right? So it cuts well. And then the fun part is how can I make it as visually striking as I can, w whether it's foreground, background, a combination of both, low angle, high angle, something different. Especially if they're they're seeking that out. That's I I just lean into that part. Yeah. And that show was so great about just no no uninteresting frames. and it was and it's so it so works for the show. It was fantastic. And and and I think There's there's also in this, you know, you relating that story that I didn't know about about John, but doesn't surprise me and I'm sure Jeff was the same way. ⁓ the thing I love about working with Jeff is ⁓ you know, okay, we're gonna come over here and you're gonna come over here, you're gonna come over here. I'm gonna go like just make this better. Yeah. And he and he sort of but but I think in both of those and in what John was telling you, I think a big part of it is also that you know that they trust you and they have your back and that they're not gonna drop the hammer on you if it doesn't work or whatever. Yeah. And you know, you know what's what makes it ⁓ so easy these days is I don't have to borrow the A camera viewfinder and make a big deal. I can sneak around with my phone with the exact field of view and show John at a moment where he's got a moment to think about it, show him the shot and he he either yes or no. You know, I love it. Or be a little tighter or whatever. And so it makes that process a lot easier. Yeah, and and for anybody who's a B camera operator, I don't know if you do something similar, but ⁓ I'm not on B camera that much, but I I love being ⁓ to be honest, I love being on B camera because it's almost like everybody's looking over there and you can kind of do your thing. And and and so there there there is that freedom. And I remember Jim Deneau ⁓ saying that to me years ago, that he would rather be the B camera. And I was working so hard at the time to be the A guy. Yeah. I couldn't see it. I couldn't see it. And then of course, now that we're talking, ⁓ my best frames by far have been on B camera because of that. They're usually the more interesting things. There's no question about it. ⁓ but ⁓ one of the things that I was gonna say was usually when I go and I snap like if I'm on B camera, even if I'm on A camera, I'll do this. ⁓ but obviously A camera, they usually have a design shot ⁓ that's all set. ⁓ I'll usually snap it and I'll go over to them and I'll and I'll usually couch it as as opposed to like, hey, I found this great shot. I'll usually couch it as like, does this have any value to you? Or is this is this worthwhile to you or whatever? And then you're sort of like passively pitching, right? I that's what I that's why I do. I I'll go, any any interest in this? Exactly. I do the same thing. Not don't not make a big deal of it because you know, sometimes they have a vision of, ⁓ maybe I don't want to cut into I don't want to give them the option to cut into this shot or something. But most of the time I think people, you know, these days appreciate that, you know, going to find the ⁓ the the cool shot. Now you br bring something up that the way you know when you're on B camera, you don't have the attention. Yeah, ⁓ you're you're flying under the radar ⁓ oftentimes 'cause there's all the buzzes around the A camera shot and the lighting it, blah, blah, blah. Meanwhile, you can find your little thing. When I was shooting as a cinematographer, I I had trouble finding the great B camera shots that I used to because I had too much too much other stuff going on. I I didn't have the quiet that that ⁓ I kind of needed to find the great stuff. Fortunately, I had a great B camera operator, Seth Kotok, who never took no for an answer and kept digging just like I would have done. And he found great great stuff. But it was interesting. I kind of need that that just leave me alone, quiet over here, I'll find something good, rather than have the whole company's, you know, agenda on my brain. No, that makes a ton that makes a ton of sense because like like you said before, you do have to go, all right, so I can't be over there, so we're putting that out of the way. I can be in this thing, but that's not gonna work. This might work. And then you sort of find like that, but you gotta go through those steps. And that's right. If you got 12 people talking to you. ⁓ so how long did you operate before you jumped up to cinematography? Well, you know, cinematography ⁓ has come in fits and spurts. ⁓ I it's I never made the jump really, even today. ⁓ even with I don't know, forty seven episodes of TV, it never really stuck. I just gotcha. Yeah, I got bumped up on things and it They were smaller, flew under the radar, and it they there were never hits that just propelled me to the next thing. So I I I've been shooting, you know, basically since I came to LA. I think my first short film was in ninety one or ninety-two. ⁓ I so I was always trying to ⁓ exercise that muscle. And and so are you doing are are you doing cinematography and camera operating, depending on what calls and whatever? Yeah, yeah, yeah. right now, ⁓ you know, I Got hired on Good Trouble ⁓ years ago with Marco as an operator, but he always intended to bump me up to cover him on Tech Scout days. So I would shoot first unit a day, an episode or something like that. So ⁓ then I got bumped up to full time for three seasons. But ⁓ since you know the industry's changed so much, I'm kind of back to operating. And he uses me in that capacity. He Tech Scouts, I'll shoot first unit, I'll shoot splinter units. Stuff like that. So so B camera, A camera, cinematography, do you have a preference? Boy. ⁓ you know, I love the puzzle of cinematography. I love lighting. I love giving the editor the pieces that tell the story seamlessly, but I hate the time pressure of it. I hate the question every 30 minutes, how much longer, how much longer, how much you know, can we I couldn't deal with that. Yeah, it's just it bothers me enough when I'm on a camera, but ⁓ yeah, it's and And the pup part of the puzzle also that I left out is the planning part. You gotta you kind of have to do it on a weekend because you're so busy. But when you show up four days later and the rigging plan worked, you know, it's very satisfying. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. But I gotta say, A camera, B camera, I mean, those are this is the cliche, it's the best job, right? Because it's kind of stress-free. You're having fun, you're involved in the whole day's work. But you can just clock out and be done at the end of the day. So I don't know. I like them both. Yeah. And well, and also as I always say, as a as a camera operator, I get to eat lunch by myself or with other people or with whoever I want to. That's right. Yeah. You're constantly dragging. Yeah. Yeah. Like you like when I'm working with Lindley, I'm like, hey, you want to have lunch? And he's like, nah, I gotta go meet with Wardrobe and and C Nic wants to, you know, or whatever it is. Right. And it's just like it just never, it never stops. ⁓ I saw on your resume that you were camera operator on arrested development. Yes. Which I have to ask you about, not only because it's it's one of my favorite shows, but also I would think as a camera operator, I mean, I don't know what the word is. I mean, it's i the camera's a little bit of a character there, right? It's it's I mean there's very Yeah. Yeah. So is that is that are the are all those shots designed or are they doing their thing in your finding pieces, or how does that work? You know, we went back and forth on that first season. ⁓ Sometimes they we were in a phase where they wouldn't show us the rehearsal. Wow. So we just show up and start documenting, you know, with F nine hundreds handheld and zooming and focusing ourselves. ⁓ geez. Okay. Yeah. They wanted all that. They wanted not finding the focus right away and all that. And and when I have to do it, that's gonna occur because there's too too many rings to to to to be turned. So would Would they do it and then say, let's do it again but change this, or would they say, We're gonna do it again, and we can do the scene again, but do something totally different, like you know? Yeah. I c you know, we went through so many iterations. ⁓ I think they would comment on whether, you know, they like to zoom in when we punched in on that character or not. ⁓ let's try a different. You know, I think they would give us notes like that. ⁓ mostly the DP saying, soft, focus, focus, focus. yeah, that's what they're It's like hey hey man, I'm looking at a tiny image of my viewfinder. Sorry. I don't know I don't know if I ever told you this story. Did I ever tell you the story about ⁓ I did ER live and there was a moment. Yeah, I don't do you remember that at all? No, I remember yes, I remember that it was an event. Yeah. Yeah. So so so for anybody who doesn't know, we did a live episode of ER and the idea was they were doing a a a live sort of newscast from The ER in Chicago. And so there there were two camera operators in it. And the camera operators were characters. Like they actually had lines. And there was an actor behind me who was who was speaking the lines, right? And there was a moment in time where someone, and I don't know who it was, said, Well, what if we just had Dave do the lines, like as an actor and whatever? And so there was this whole thing where they were gonna like taft tartly, I mean whatever. And I remember I went over to ⁓ Tony Edwards' house and and we ran lines for one scene that we were gonna try one weekend and and I was horrible. And he was just like, Don't try to act, just be a camera operator who's talking. And I'm like, Yeah, but that's not what we do. That's the problem. And so anyway, we got through it. And I did I did one one scene with Laura Innis in an elevator, and I'm, you know, doing lines with her or whatever, but I'm still shooting, right? So so you know, she gives her line and while I'm supposedly listening and reacting to her line, they're going, Dave, I think you're a little soft. Can you zoom in a little bit? Hey, like what's the what's the color temperature on camera thing? And and I and she's looking at me. And I remember she at one point and it just looked straight into the lens and she was like, guys, this doesn't work. Yeah. That is hilarious. She looked at me and she's like, It's not you. It's like I can tell that you're listening to them. And I was like, Yeah, I don't know what to do. And they were like, Yeah, this is never ⁓ that's so sweet. So so I I've so I I have I have a little feeling for a moment of what you're talking about. Yeah. ⁓ But but it occurs to me that that what we were talking about before, that kind of shooting on arrested development is really all about committing, right? Because like you're flying of the seat of your pants, but you're going, I'm zooming in and I'm yeah, I don't care what happens. That's what I'm doing. Like that's right. I gotta I gotta do it. And sometimes they, you know, you'd nail it and you'd you'd hear it after that. Take that was a great zoom in at that moment, you know? And those those are satisfying. And I like the challenge of of that when you're handheld, you can dictate what you want the audience to see, you know, and you you you have to know the script well, you have to, you know, reinforce the story as much as you can. But when you nail that, it's really satisfying. That's amazing. ⁓ and just because I have to ask, ⁓ a a blast working with that cast. ⁓ God. It was a laugh a minute. You know, ⁓ the scene would be over and the the cast was so ⁓ They're so talented. They would just riff and keep going and it was we just laugh our asses off. It was hilarious. That's that's the best because that it just I watched that and it just seems like it would be such a great we I was shooting next door on on blind justice, which was a show about a blind cop that for some reason didn't take off. ⁓ but and I I think we came over to visit once or twice 'cause we had it wasn't on in the air yet, but we had heard about this, you know, show that's all handheld and whatever. ⁓ But ⁓ I didn't know you back then. That's amazing. What a what a what an incredible experience. so and you told me you did the first bunch of episodes of Mad Men, right? Yes. Yeah. Yep. ⁓ I think the way that came to me was ⁓ I was working on Six Feet Under and Sopranos had to shoot ⁓ a sequence out here. And I think Phil Abraham got my name probably from Rob Sweeney or Jim Deneau. And so I worked with him for a week with ⁓ Sir Ben Kingsley and others ⁓ out here. And I think I guess it went well because he called me for for Mad Men. ⁓ and he said, you know, I've got this show. I I'm not going to do the whole thing. He goes, I'm going to do the first four episodes and ⁓ you know, I'd love to have you for that. But after that, you know, I'm going to be gone. You could do whatever you want. And so That always stuck in the back of my head. And I had the best time. I mean, Mad Men was was great. ⁓ such a cinematic show. The the art direction. It was ⁓ Dan Bishop on Art Direction, and I had done Carnival, which was Dan Bishop also. And so I looked at these sets and I went to Dan. I said, Dan, I want you in my contract. Wherever you go, I want to be the operator. Yeah. The stuff is just extraordinary, you know, and the costumes, everything. It was just so cool. But I got an offer. I really wanted to do movies. As you know, TV and movies, you know, ⁓ not so much now, but i it's a you know, the there's a hierarchy and and it's harder to get into movies. So I really wanted to do movies. So I got an offer to do a movie with Rohirstoffers and I was torn. I was like, I'm on this show that is so cool on a camera. Right. Do I really want to leave? And I asked ⁓ a a a French cinematographer friend of mine. He I told him the conundrum. He goes, How many episodes have you done? And I said, ⁓ it will it will be four. He goes, You will have done every shot in the series. He goes, Go do the movie. Go do the movie. And I Kind of suspected I was going to do that. I ended up doing it. But ⁓ a few years later, I was working with Jay Roach and we were sitting down at lunch and he goes, Wow, you worked on Mad Men? And no one has ever said to me, Wow, you worked on Lakeview Terrace, the movie that I went to do. There you go. But you never but you don't know that at the time, right? Like who who the hell knows how these things work? And and the funny thing is the way you talk about it, yeah, because it used to be that T V was the minor leagues and and and features were the majors now. But it's not that it's not that way anymore. No, with streaming it's elevated so much that it almost and you have feature DPs doing streaming stuff and ⁓ so it's a lot more fluid. Yeah. Well, and I you know, I'll go I'll get on these I'll get on these ⁓ T V shows now where it's like, you know, you'll have you'll have technocrane two days of the week or whatever. It's like, could you imagine that when we were when we were coming up, like you never saw a technocrane, you know? I mean there was nothing. But ⁓ yeah, it's it's it's changed significantly. But ⁓ and ⁓ did you do Carnival with Jeff Jur? Yes, I did ⁓ Carnival with ⁓ alternating season two was alternating Jeff and ⁓ Jim Deneau. So Jim Deneau, and yeah and Don Dev was Don Divine there at that time? I'm glad you mentioned Don Devine because you know I was it was pretty early on in my a camera operating and somehow I I guess I was good at voicing what I wanted because I I I asked Jim, is is there any way I could operate A on your episodes? And he he I think he's the guy that negotiated this, but Jeff and Don up well Don really agreed to switch to B on Jim's episodes. And I am forever grateful because I learned so much A from him. I got to watch him be such a great A camera operator on the A camera operator. Yeah. And then practice it on the next episode. I mean, it was a dream come true. And I don't think I realized how big of a thing was. If Don, if he's listening. Thank you for that. That was an amazing. He will be. I talk to Don all the time. He's been on the show several times. And actually, he and Jeff did an episode together about the DP operator relationship. So they talked a lot about Carnival, among other things. But it doesn't surprise me at all because I bet Don went, ⁓ this is an up-and-coming A-camera operator. This would be a good opportunity for him. I'll I'll do B, which is fun and I like to do it, a little pressure off me. I could totally see him doing that. And you're right, because there are some A-Camera operators who, if they heard about that, would be like, Get that guy off the set when he's trying to take my job. Kit yeah, you're dead to me. Yeah. I you know, clearly I didn't threaten him. I didn't have the skills to threaten him in in any way. I wasn't ever gonna take a job away from Don Devine after that for but so he saw the big picture and wow, what a gracious thing. It was ⁓ it was a big deal. Do you remember any anything specific that you learned from watching him operate? Like or watching him be He just made it look so easy, you know, totally relaxed, running the rehearsals and just making jokes throughout, super funny. And I just thought, God, I want to be him, you know. And and his commitment to the wheels was, you know, something I knew I could be good at wheels. And ⁓ he really ⁓ was a guy committed to the wheels like for everything. And yeah. You know, that it made me want to be the best gearhead operator I could be, for sure. That's fantastic. Yeah. Well, I will he'll he'll listen to this, but I'll let him know anyway that you said that 'cause he's just he's he's a wonderful person. He's very special guy. Yeah. He's and a great operator. And ironically, t I think I don't know if he took over Mad Men from you or it was a little bit after, but he was the A camera operator for a long time on Mad Men. That's right. Yeah. He was working with Chris Manley. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. I I don't think he took over immediately after me. I think they went through some ⁓ some growing pains after that, but ⁓ I th I can't remember it for certainly by season two he was on because I left early season one. So you did ⁓ you did Fate of the Furious, ⁓ which is what ⁓ Fast and Furious 17 or something like that. Yeah, eight Fast and Furious Eight, yes. ⁓ now I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you very, very plainly so there's no I I don't know that I've ever seen a Fast and Furious all the way through, so I can't really tell you much about them. But I have to assume based on what I know about the f the franchise and that this was the eighth one, that that story was probably not the biggest part of that that show, and maybe it was a little more substance or style over substance. Is that possible? Yeah, you you could say that. Yeah, for sure. I mean it's a little bit formulaic because you have to get all the the action into it. ⁓ But having said that, the action was super sophisticated stuff. I mean I that's what I wanted to ask you about because you do you have something like that compared to something like Mad Men or Carnival. It seems like it's it's you know it's apples and oranges, right? ⁓ for for sure. I mean, ⁓ I was lucky in that ⁓ we had to do a second unit sequence ⁓ that that maybe typically they don't do, first unit doesn't really do, because we have such a sophisticated second unit working all over the globe. But the way the schedule worked out is we had to go to Cuba for some first unit stuff and they just couldn't tack on another, you know, international thing for second unit. So we did a chase sequence there, a car car chase sequence, a race actually, ⁓ for a couple of weeks. And it was fun. I it was challenging. It was like I I was definitely a little bit of a fish out of water. ⁓ until we got to the actor part, then it was like, okay, ⁓ I know this part, but ⁓ it was fun to be a part of that. I got lucky to to be a part of that. So when you say when you say fish out of water, I'm assuming it's because you haven't done the the big action stuff before that. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, I'd done some stunts on you know, T V shows and and and some movies too, but not to that, you know, to that scale. So so what do you do in that situation to Make sure you've got all the information and you're doing, you know, you're able to do your job correctly. But at the same time, I would think that there's part of you that like doesn't want to totally let on that you haven't done a ton of this because you you don't want people to not have faith in you, right? Yeah. Like how do you how do you Well, yeah, you you definitely have to fake that part, but ⁓ y the one thing for me was making sure I understood exactly what was happening from From the stunt coordinator, from the driver, from you know, the actual guy driving the car ⁓ to the A Ds, what are the cues, you know, just really going over that stuff to make sure you you just there was no hesitation or question about what was gonna happen. ⁓ That's great. Yeah. And and of course there y ⁓ you also realize, hey, there are eight other cameras shooting here, so Somebody's gonna get it. Somebody's gonna get something. No, but you you actually said something really important that I don't think that most people do catch. And I learned I learned this very early on. Is like, you know, the stunt coordinate will go, Well, the car's gonna come around the corner and it's gonna fishtail or whatever. And I always make sure that I talk to the driver of that car and go, So tell me what's gonna happen. And just like if they d if if those stories don't line up, I'm like, okay, so I'm hearing this I'm w like, you know, what is it? Yeah. So I always ask, yeah, always ask all the players, the actual people, not because telephone becomes, you know, a whole thing where it's like you suddenly hear a totally different story. That's right. ⁓ and I it yeah, and and that's really important for self preservation on a lot of these stunt things and also, you know, trying to get the best camera work you can. For your shot. And also, ⁓ just because we're talking about stunts, I always like to point out to people, I always go, Okay, I know what's happening if it goes right. And I'll use I'll usually say to the stunt coordinator and the driver, like, what could possibly go wrong here that we should be, you know, we should be aware of? Because I'm not I'm not a stunt person, you know, I don't I don't think about these things. And that's always so but but I have to ask you, what w what was Cuba like? I mean, that must have been wild. Cuba was was it was fascinating. I mean, you here you have a communist government where but it was being opened up a little bit, right? It was I think this was during Obama. ⁓ or at least, yeah, Obama had started to open up the you know, relations. ⁓ but you had odd things where taxi drivers who were shuttling us around were making more than a surgeon because of the communist ⁓ You know, because their ac access to foreign dollars versus the communist's salary. Wow. You know, so you had, you know, just bizarre things like that. all the history of the place. ⁓ it was it was a fascinating time. I ended up reading a couple of books, ⁓ one about the Bacardi ⁓ family there and ⁓ a novel ⁓ during ⁓ Russia's you know involvement with Cuba. It's fascinating the history of that place. Yeah. And it seemed like it's so sad because it seemed like it was going to open up. People were going to really prosper, prosper from from ⁓ tourism money ⁓ that they desperately needed. And now it's there in a world a hurt, unfortunately. Yeah, absolutely. Wow, what an amazing opportunity. And is it still all like 1950s cars that they've been sort of limping along and figuring out how to fix? That is no joke. I have so many photos of 1950s cars. They just have to make do with what. What they have, you know. They're not making new stuff. When we were shooting there, ⁓ we had Fred North ⁓ doing some helicopter stuff, and people there hadn't seen a helicopter in like forty years. Really? Yeah. Even there's no military helicopter because they don't know parts probably. ⁓ post post Soviet ⁓ you know, when when the Soviets sort of l left Cuba h hanging. ⁓ They hadn't seen I mean, w people were just out on rooftops all over the place. It was I hadn't even thought about that. That's a good that's one of those things where it's like, Yeah, we we we we get to do cool stuff in this industry that we would never get to do otherwise. That's that's Cuba's a Cuba's a special one. That's yeah, that would that was a that was ⁓ really a great a great opportunity for me. That's pretty cool. ⁓ tell me about ⁓ tell me about working with actors both as an A camera and a B camera operator, because I think there's there's I mean, there's there's obviously similarities, but but there there are differences there too. Absolutely. I mean with a camera, you you know, you have to gain their trust ⁓ so that you can help each other out, right? So ⁓ when I need to ask them, hey, how How are you going to reach for that thing so I can tilt down? You know, you can help me out. I can help you out and you know, make you look better in a frame also. So you have to establish that relationship, which you don't exactly get to do so much on B camera. ⁓ you know, I don't want to take too much attention ⁓ as the B camera guy, you know. I want to work within what's set up. And if I have to, I'll I'll ask the actor. To help me out some, but ⁓ I don't feel like I could I I feel like I step on toes if I'm working with them too much on B. There's too many cooks in the kitchen. ⁓ how how ⁓ so how do you go about establishing that trust? Do you have a do you have a way of doing that or does it just happen or ⁓ I don't think I have a method. I just ⁓ you know, I just do my thing as a as relaxed and confident as I ⁓ you know, can be. And I think that just Translate. So, you know, somebody asks me a question, I don't hem and ha and hesitate. I I usually know the answer. And once you get, you know, a few questions answered like that that an actor has, I think they feel like, okay, I feel like I'm in good hands here. Yeah. Cause there is, I think there is that thing. Whether I I don't know if it's ⁓ if people are aware of it or not. ⁓ but you know, day one, the actors are are they're sussing you out to try to figure out like do I have to worry about this person? Can I rely on this person? Et cetera et cetera. And just like we're sussing everybody else out. I mean, I don't think, you know, people so I think that that's that's invaluable is like just, you know, that calm air and that ⁓ he's not he's not flustered and he's not questioning things and he's not, you know, being annoying or whatever. like which way do I look Yeah. It's like do I go left or right? Because you know right away. Yeah. You you you know right away. ⁓ Sometimes they'll ask what lens you're on, although that's kind of a old school thing. ⁓ I was working with Giancarlo Esposito not too long ago, and he was he was probing just to see who he was working with. He's like, Uh-huh. First shows up on set after the rehearsal. We're we're ready to roll. He goes, What lens are you on? I go, fifty. You know, I and I described the size and But I didn't want to tell him, you know, fifty on this larger format is not exactly a fifty that you're used to. It's more like a thirty-five. But ⁓ I didn't get into that. But it was like, you know, quick answer. He knew what the deal was, and and we worked well together after that. It was literally one question and that was it. And how you don't have to name any names, but have you have you have you done a camera with actors who are not so willing to work? Well with ⁓ the camera operator. And if so, how do you what do you do? Well, he you know, ⁓ that's a tough one because I I worked on one movie where I was B camera and one of our first setups with this particular actor were A and B side by side, and the B is usually on the inside to get the eye line tighter, but that gives you a narrow window. And I got it working with second team, which is something, but it's not everything. So I c I asked for a first team lineup so I could make sure I had my shots still with their body language. And this particular actor just thought, ⁓ I thought you guys were ready. ⁓ just made a big deal of it. And I and this is the first shot with him. I thought, okay. So it was difficult. I at at some point I just I had to just Do the best I could and adjust within between takes as opposed to asking for anything from him because it was just this weird thing where he was super prepared with all his his part of it and didn't understand, I think, that the technical side, there's a little massaging that we have to do to get it dialed in. And he just had no patience for that. And it was very difficult. But so we just had to do it between takes quietly and do the best we could. I I think that's probably the best. And I've been in those situations where not exactly, but there is that thing of like, you know, we have our time and they have their time. But there's that part where you want to go, I totally agree with you. It's just your time doesn't start for another 30 seconds because we just need you actually, because you know, when someone's stands up, they stand up differently than another or whatever. That's right. Or or two people s side by side, you have a raking shot, you know, they stand differently. They lean differently. Yeah. ⁓ and the thing that that drives me crazy is yes, it is about me a little bit, but ultimately it's about who's in the frame that benefits from a better frame. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ I I will tell you that once when I had something similar to that of like, you know, well, why do we have to line this up and whatever. And there was a moment and this person looked at me and I said, We just want to make sure that the way that you're standing, we're seeing you the way we saw the stand-ins because I don't want you to have some amazing performance and we don't get it. And and and he looked at me and I was like, ⁓ God, I hope that you know what and he was like, Okay, fine. And and then it was sort of like, Yeah, I'm gonna stand like this. Is this okay? Yeah, okay, great. No, that's thank you so much. And then that's I know. I should have come up with that, but ⁓ I was still but intimidated when he sc screamed out over the whole set so the whole set could hear it. ⁓ god. Yeah. Well, no, that that could go a number of ways. And this was also a little deeper into a show ⁓ w where I knew that this person was tough and ⁓ tough isn't the right word, but maybe ⁓ whatever you want to call it. ⁓ yeah, and and so we hadn't asked much, and this was one of the times where we were specifically, and I basically, you know, and I think I was getting sort of frustrated with it at that point. So I just wanted to let him know, like, look, again, the only reason I want to do this is so you don't do it again. Like you don't want to do it again 'cause of me. So I just need two more pieces of information and then we're good to go. Yep. That's smart. That's the way to do it. Yeah, but but it but it can it can backfire in you. There's no question about it. Yeah. ⁓ especially on B, have you been in that situation where ⁓ director wants one thing and the D P wants another? ⁓ boy. Yes. And the and the A operator is going, I don't care what they're saying, you're not doing that. Yeah. Yeah. luckily I haven't had the A camera operator. ⁓ you know ⁓ the difficulties, the friction there. I'm lucky in that regard. But ⁓ but that the two different things is is tough. One of the talents I think I have is interpretation. So You know, I in those cases I know the director's wanting something else. And I try to, know, as ⁓ calmly as I can explain to the D P I think they're wanting this, but it's a very tough situation. I don't have a good answer for it, but I ⁓ I I don't think anybody does. Yeah. Unless unless what the director's asking for is is, you know, bad photographically, I try to lean towards what they're asking for. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I it's yeah, it's a tough one and we've all been there. But I'm glad to hear that you haven't had that from the A camera operator because it's less and less. But I know when I started out, ⁓ because I would come in and do B, there'd be A camera operators who would who would almost sabotage you sometimes because like I was the young kid and I was a steady camera operator and all sorts of other things. So that was that was you you got your spidey senses up a little bit. But it it taught you to pay attention. That was one of the good things about it. So there's there's good and bad and everything. Has has has Do you think that shooting and then going back to being a camera operator has it has it changed your sort of the way you look at it and the the larger picture of things or is it just is it the same as it was? ⁓ you know, because I was sh shooting as much as I could throughout the whole process, even when I was a first A C, ⁓ i you know, I already had my antenna up for for that, but ⁓ So I I I tend to still I think I tend to still approach it the same way. I do appreciate though, probably more so than I did before when I show up and there's a big rig and I see all this has been planned out and it looks great. You know, I definitely have more appreciation for that. And maybe I have ⁓ more of a desire or or or ⁓ yeah, to to to show that off, you know, in frames. So I don't know. ⁓ I wanted ask you about Oz the Great and Powerful, which I didn't see, but seems like visually a really cool big movie. Yeah. It was it was super fun because it was 3D. Now, I kind of suspected 3D wasn't gonna last, but I was really happy to have done a big Hollywood 3D production. And with all that art direction and costumes and ⁓ it was that was super fun. And and Sam Raimi, I don't know if you've ever worked with him. He's he's a character, an interesting, fun guy to work with and pass super passionate. Yeah, I've heard that. ⁓ so but so when you're shooting something three D, do you do you immediately start thinking about the three D of it or do you do you do you do you still just think about, you know, good storytelling, good shots or whatever? I mean Yeah, I I mean, definitely I took the three D workshop like probably so many people did to to try to understand it ⁓ as much as I could and I knew that you would, you know, change the depth depending on how big the shot is, how wide it is, how tight it is, whatever. So it didn't really I don't think we I don't think we Pre-visualize the 3D part of it. It was more basic storytelling ⁓ when we needed a wide frame, when we needed a tighter shot, and then let the 3D team figure out the depth ⁓ for those shots to tell the story. It was I think we could have maybe given more time or more experience with 3D, done what you're suggesting, and really pre-visualized the 3D for every single shot. I'm not sure we did that. On that movie. Well, that's kind of what I was asking because I've never done any 3D, which I'm actually okay with as a steady cam operator, because it just seems horrible. ⁓ but ⁓ but ⁓ I I always sort of wonder like if it was two D, would you have made the exact same movie or does it does it change it? And I guess it sounds like it's sort of some it does and some it doesn't, depends on what's going on. Yeah, I mean we I think we took ⁓ tr more of a traditional two D approach to it and yeah. I I I don't I don't think Sam loved the 3D part of it. I think that's where you know he didn't really design it exactly for 3D. Gotcha. I think most people ended up probably seeing it in 2D anyway. Yeah, which is too bad to put all that was it the two camera setup? Yeah. It was two camera. Gotcha. And here's the the real challenge six frame delay. seriously. Yeah, I'm on a technocr and a technocrane, it's a six it's a six frame delay. That's that's that that's an eternity. So be because it had to like go back to them and then they have to feed it back to you, is that the idea? Something about the signal. I can't remember exactly the details, but that was that was brutal. Imagine stand ups, they're already the hardest shot, and now you got a six frame delay. So what do you do? You just you just you just take your eyes off the monitor and watch them and exactly what I did is I would I would get in a position where I would see them right above my monitor and as soon as they started to to stand in real life, I would start tilting and then I'd switch to the monitor. ⁓ my God. That's it was that's just I mean, my heart's going a little fast just hearing about that. That's that's horrible. It it was rough. It was rough. I remember I remember Peter on the radio, it was Paul Sanchez and I shooting ⁓ A and B s some early stuff in the movie and he's like, You're both missing the stand ups and we're like, ⁓ I don't know what to tell you. Yeah But but the thing is if you missed it, you would then by the time you came back to the monitor, you'd see that you missed it, right? Yes, you'd see you know. It's not that you don't see it, it's just that you miss it. You you you get the information too late. ⁓ man, that's just that's unbelievable that was the biggest challenge of that movie for sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's where you go and you're like, Hey, can we can we have nobody sit down or stand up the entire movie? ⁓ that's that's quite unbelievable. I can't I can't imagine that. But ⁓ but it but it was fun. The three D was just a such a cool novelty. ⁓ but it made the ch camera giant. There were so many challenges with it. It sounds like it. ⁓ god. ⁓ best part and worst part of being a camera operator. Best part is actively being involved in the making of a movie or a TV show or an episode. You're you're there, you're at the heart of the storytelling. And that is super rewarding without the stress of having to organize and put it all together. You're just hanging out, making a movie. That's the best part. The worst part is When you're on take seven and you still don't have the shot. The pre the pressure, right? ⁓ when it's a difficult shot and you know, maybe people had different expectations or whatever, and you can't deliver it maybe ever as good as you want, and they have to move on. That is tough to take. I hate that. Yep. ⁓ it's funny, as you were saying that, I was thinking to myself, There's two ways that that plays out that I hate. One is that you've done seven takes because of you, which is I mean, very clearly everybody would understand that. But the other one is that you've done you're on take twenty three because of an actor or some other thing, and you you start to get like nervous of like I I can't not get this right. Yeah. Right. I can't be the one at this point. Like we finally got him where we need absolutely. That's a good point. Is ⁓ Yeah, if you do too many takes for whatever reason and you've nailed a bunch of them, but you know you don't have it as a company, then you start getting your own head like, ⁓ God, I can't screw up now. Yeah, it's weird. And you start you start having to play these mental games of like calm down. You've done it twenty three times, you're gonna do it twenty four times, and then in the back of your mind it's going, but what if you don't? It's like shut up, we're not talking about that. You're gonna do it twenty four times. Yeah. But ⁓ yeah, that because I had a shot one time ⁓ where I was dolling or or arming or something through a blind spot and then had to pick up the actors again through a window or something like that. And I wasn't thinking about it, I was just doing it. And on like take five the B camera guy went, God man, I don't know how you're doing this. It's boom. It's amazing. And then the worst the next take I start thinking about it and I didn't get it. I never got it as good after that. I d I know exactly what you're thinking about because you're just like in the zone and then someone goes, Hey buddy, and you're like out of the zone's gone. It's just it's just gone. I totally know what you mean. Yeah, that's ⁓ do you get nervous before you start a job? I used to a little bit, but in a good way, like not not debilitating, but like, you know, in a way that sharpens your game, like right out of the gate, as sharp as you can be. ⁓ I think I get less nervous these days, but I I still have a little bit of that day one. I you know, we we gotta show up and bring the bring it, you know. but it's just a sharpening nervousness. It's not yeah. And and I I wanna ask because you you've you've you've done ⁓ a lot of B camera. You know, a lot of sh TV shows especially, ⁓ sometimes you you you come in on B camera and ⁓ You don't have the most seasoned dolly group. Sometimes it's either it's the lesser of the two dolly groups or sometimes it's someone who's like, Hey, why don't you try, you know, pushing dolly this time 'cause our usual guy's in a villain. Right. ⁓ and maybe ⁓ maybe someone like you comes in and your ⁓ your experience is so much greater than this person's experience. ⁓ how do you how do you handle that? How do you work with them and bring someone up, you know, who may not have the chops yet? That is a challenge. And it it has happened. ⁓ Yeah, I I try to try to motivate them through example. Like I'm working the shot from the first rehearsal to the last take, and I might make adjustments almost throughout to try to make it better. And so I'm trying to motivate that person to have that mindset and start, you know. start tightening up their ⁓ their focus. And it it's first it's a motivation and sometimes it's you know technical details like, hey, let's mark this. When I say lower me, let's put a mark there because I'm gonna come back to it. I'm exploring here, but let's mark it. Or yeah, you know, that that kind of stuff. And I don't I know I have to work with them. So I can't I have to do it in a way that Is nice, but still try to up their level and and watch what I'm doing and look at this frame. It's you know, I'm trying to make this better. Help me. ⁓ it is a challenge. I don't have a magic formula, but no, I that's why I I ask because other you know, I always want to know what other people do because we all run into it. And the thing that I'm always concerned about is it's very hard not to get frustrated and not to let that show. Because you're used to work because we're lucky enough to work with really great people. Yeah. And and there's some people who will see that frustration and and then it becomes a downward spiral and then they're just doing worse and you're feeling ups and it just becomes worse and worse and worse. Yes. And it's a and and sometimes you can't stop that. And it's it's the worst thing in the world because ⁓ you know, you want to do good work and you want people to do good work, but that that's why I asked because you know, most people who are operating will recognize, especially and then sometimes you come in on C camera and it's like, well, yeah, this was the third hammer last week and yeah, he's never pushed Dolly before. And ⁓ boy. Okay. And you know it's tough. It's tough. ⁓ and sometimes it results in the changing of the guard, right? ⁓ a changing of the of the of the personnel. ⁓ yeah. But yeah, it's that is a that's I'm glad you brought that up. I don't have the answers, but it is a big challenge. I don't know that there are any answers, but I think I think the the one answer that I'll say to it is this that I've told people before is regardless of whether it's fair or not, and regardless of whether you agree with it or not, it's your job to figure out how to make it work because that's right you have to give them the shots. That's ⁓ I have I have on occasion gone up to a D P and say, I I don't know what you want to do, but I think that the shot we're asking for is above the means of this person. ⁓ So maybe we give that to the other camera or maybe whatever. But I and we can try it, but I just want I want to be realistic about it. And you know, you hate to do that, right? But but you also you gotta be realistic about things. That's right. Yeah. That's a tough situation. Yeah. And most DPs who are good good folks will re w have already recognized, you know. ⁓ and that that's what I was just gonna say. I've yeah, I've been on a show recently where that sort of happened and both the key grip, ⁓ everybody saw it basically. Yeah, that Yeah that I was being a little bit limited or had to explain ev you know, ⁓ way more than normal and that kind of stuff. And they saw it. Yeah. It's it's tough because it takes it takes years of experience to get all that stuff and it doesn't come quickly. That's right. ⁓ five movies that you would suggest any camera operator should see, ⁓ either based on the camera operating or the storytelling or or whatever whatever you want. Okay. ⁓ I it doesn't have to be five. It can be less, can be more. Yeah, it the that's the hardest part is the five. ⁓ well what I what I always what I've started to tell people it's not the five movies. It's just five movies. Okay, five. Okay. That that's good because Road to Perdition. The great great Conrad Hall. The reason I put this on the list is there is a shot in that movie that is For me, perfect visual storytelling, no words needed. And what it is is ⁓ Paul Newman's the crime boss, and his son, Daniel Craig, is supposedly the second in command, but he's he's screwed up one too many times. So there's a a meeting of all the higher ups, and Paul Newman's at one end of the table, Daniel Craig's at the other, and he's dressing down. Daniel Craig, he's letting him have it. The meeting adjourns, the camera pushes in over the table to Daniel Craig and goes soft, like out of focus. And you're like, you go, what the hell? And the moment you realize that, Paul Newman enters the frame in the background where the focus is, and he's got his arm around Tom Hanks, the new number two. As soon as you recognize that, boom, focus back to Daniel Craig finish the move in close up. It is genius. I never would have come up with it. I've never seen it, a push in on a guy in a reaction moment where it goes at soft. It was just it's brilliant. Anyway. Fantastic. I'm gonna see if I can pull that shot. That's great. I I I I remembered I have to see that movie again. And also Scott Sakamoto, amazing, amazing operator, amazing operator. I didn't realize that. Yes, absolutely. okay, here's one that's kind of current. Athena. Have you seen it? ⁓ yeah. Crazy, right? Like just ⁓ unbelievable. So here here's my pitch is Athena, but you also have to watch the making of, which is a 45-minute documentary, because the camera movement in the first 20 minutes of that movie is utterly insane. And they knew what what they were you know, that it was gonna be special, so they documented it and it is it is a pleasure to watch. I even if you don't have time to watch the whole movie, you gotta watch the first twenty minutes and then the makeup agreed. Yep. Yep. Agreed. ⁓ here's one that ⁓ I loved coming out of the gate was the lives of others. German film. Yep. Yep. And it is a movie that all the disciplines come together to make something special. It's the The script, it's the casting, it's the costumes, it's production design, cinematography, all and the direction all coming together to make something just really special for me. Perfect. ⁓ I've always wanted to make a movie where I could hang every frame on the wall. Now that is ⁓ highly idealistic, it's never gonna happen, but. The closest I've seen is a Polish film called Ida. I D A. ⁓ wow. Okay. Ida. It is it's a great film and with a stunning visual language, super interesting frames, one after another. Amazing. I'm gonna watch that. You know what when you were br saying it, I thought you were gonna say conclave, because I felt that way about Conclave. ⁓ that was Conclave, I was like these These frames could be in museums. They're unbelievable. But Ida, okay. I'm gonna watch that. Fantastic. Ida is great. And then ⁓ I had to pick a classic, The Conformist. This is great. V Vittorio Sturraro at his peak, working with Bertolucci, ⁓ criticizing fascism. It's it is a really special piece of work, especially you consider, you know, the time period it was it it was ahead of its time, some brilliant frames. ⁓ incredible movie. That's a fantastic list. And I love the fa it's like totally varied. It's across the across the board. That's that's a great list. Thank you. ⁓ yeah, my pleasure. Yeah. ⁓ that's amazing. ⁓ well, listen, Patrick, this has been really fantastic. It's great to catch up with you. And ⁓ I hope someday we get to work together again where both of us can try to outdo each other on on more interesting shots that tell the story better. Yeah. That was super fun, Dave. I hope so too. It was. That was that was I and also it was just like that whole crew was great and ⁓ there was just that was just that was a really special I remember when Jody came back, I was just like, damn it, why's Jody coming back? Yeah. But ⁓ but it was ⁓ it was an honor to take over for him and that and work with all you guys on that. I'm gonna leave you with the question that I leave everybody with and you can take us out. ⁓ advice that you give ⁓ you Advice that you'd give to someone getting into the business today on how to succeed and or something that you have learned along the way that you wish you knew a lot sooner. Okay. I think it's important to put yourself in a position to succeed. So, you know, we have opportunities in this business aren't handed out on a silver platter. So the sometimes they're few and far between. So you have to be ready when somebody offers you something, you've got to, even if it's slightly above where you think your, you know, your your talent is, you have to put yourself in a position to be ready for that. And so there's obvious things. You got to study films, right? So you have to watch films, not once or twice, but over and over so that you don't get sucked in by the story still, that you're actually watching the technical ⁓ qualities of the film. You know, How did they cover it? Did they shoot a wide shot? When did they use that in the edit? How did you know, did they move the camera? What was the composition? Did these things, how did they affect the scene and how did they propel the story? Right. So the that's probably thing number one. And nowadays you have an opportunity like no other time to actually make films. So make the films, get in the editing room, put it together. And see what didn't go right. Because it ain't gonna go right the first time. But you learn from that. And ⁓ and and I think that doing part, that being in the editing room, that's where you're gonna learn a lot after having studied. For technicians, I'll leave it with this. ⁓ I tell technicians this, young technicians this all the time. Learn the frequency of your boss's voice. so that you're train yourself to hear it above the chaos of the film set and you will do well. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.