Sarah Levy Final Repeat : The following podcast was originally recorded in October of twenty twenty three. Enjoy! On today's episode, we'll talk about working in the world of reality television, unexpected mentors, the office, the Muppets, and of course, how not to ruin a take when you're cracking up inside. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website, the op.io, is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Victor 30 Echo Tech Two. Hey Mark. Camera set. Back room. In action. Hello everybody and welcome back to the OP Podcast, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. My name is Dave Komides and I am your host. We're here yet again from Panavision Woodland Hills because it sounds better than the Tree Fort in my backyard. I'm really excited today to have a great operator here, Sarah Levy, who's done actually a a ton of stuff sort of across the spectrum, which is gonna be fascinating to hear about. some of her credits, but not all of them. Haunted Mansion, Captain Marvel, Winning Time, Glow. Trial and Error, which was created by my good friend Jeff Astroff, which I think is kinda cool. The Muppets, which is just bec cool because it's the Muppets, and anytime someone works on the Muppets, I have to say that. The Office, which I'm totally jealous of, Garfunkel and Oates, which I'm totally jealous of. The Apprentice, which I'm not so jealous of. American Gladiators, Big Brother, a ton of other reality shows, which I want to hear all about. she was the winner of the 2001 ASC Student Heritage Award for a USC film. And in twenty twenty-three she was nominated for the SOC Camera Operator of the Year Award for Winning Time. thank you for being here. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. This is really cool. We tried to set this up like nine times and it finally finally actually worked. Finally. So tell me about what tell me about your life. What how'd you get here? What's the story? Well, let's see. I'm from Pasadena originally, and I don't know if it was growing up in a town where movies were filming around the corner or what, but nobody in my family was part of the industry. But I do remember being a high school student and father of the bride was literally shooting around the corner and walking down there and looking at a whole bunch of people standing around doing nothing and thinking, What are they doing and I want to do that? I w I wanna stand around and do nothing on that movie show. No, I just remember seeing so many people just, you know, and that's what film is. You you know, everybody's tons of pre production, you're on set, you You know, everybody's doing their job, but as an outsider you don't necessarily know what everybody's doing. But there was something extremely intriguing about it. Did you sit and like watch them work? I did. and I think maybe that was the little bit of a, you know, the movie bug that bit me. But I didn't really manifest till much later. I I went to UC San Diego undecided. I really had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. But fortunately my dorm was near the communications department. And every day I would walk by and I would see people with cameras and I didn't know what they were doing, but something again was very intriguing about it. And so I decided to be a communications major. And all of a sudden I'm, you know, handed a camera and we're making documentaries and it just clicked. Like there was something about the power of the camera where When it was in my hand, I could go anywhere and talk to anybody. And I had never experienced that before. Because it sort of gave you a pass, you mean like she's got a camera, she must know what she's doing. You know, I'm kind of a quiet introverted person, but as soon as you have a camera, you have a purpose. So I remember one of my first documentaries was you know, they say go go talk to a group of people that are, you know, like a a s a fringe group, I think it was the the terminology. And across the street from UCSD was a glider port with people jumping off in La Jolla, jumping off the cliff on hang gliders. a hang glider. hang gliders. wow. And I thought that looked really interesting. And I'd actually like to jump off that cliff. So I went over with my little camera and I said, hi, I'm making a documentary. And then it's they just welcomed me right in. I started doing interviews with people like why they like to do that. And we actually ended up putting a camera on a on a hang glider. And I did a tandem flight. And of course I I did make one big mistake, which was I set up the camera looking at the two of us, thinking we'd have this great view over our backs to, you know, the Vista. But as soon as you physically get on, the weight shifts, and so we had a really nice shot of our butts. These are good times to learn now. But we had we had a good takeoff and good landing. Were you just a one person band then? I was one person behind. And is this just like a little handicam coming? Yeah, a little I don't know. High eight it was maybe and that's great. And we just kind of went off and talked to whoever we wanted to and it it was it really was, I think, eye opening for me. That's very cool. Yeah. So so and then you did the office. Yeah, right. A few things happened before that. But no, I I got out of school, I realized, you know, I was interested in documentary for sure, but also wanted to see what feature film was about. So I ended up getting a job as a PA. Which was kind of a funny way I I first I had a job as a a script supervising intern on a PBS English as a second language show. my gosh. Random, right? Rand that's completely random. I know, and I don't I think it was like something through my university and but anyway, I had a friend working on a movie called Lost Highway. David Lynch feature and she was a PA. And she got a promotion and one day she calls me up and she's Hey, we need a PA. And I left my job as a script supervising intern that morning. And that night I was taking black and white sixteen millimeter to CFI. They were still in pre production and they had just shot if you've seen the movie, there's some black and white porno footage with Marilyn Manson that they were filming in the office. So in the office. Yes. In the production office. So my day, my first day as a production assistant in Hollywood, I started in one job and ended up taking that film to till the film lab that evening. that's great. So that was my but I mean that was my first mini mini film school for sure. 'Cause I was an office PA. I saw how everything kind of Were you on set at all or just a little bit. Mostly to do runs. Okay. it wasn't Yeah, I th it was probably on set more than I should have been just because things were a little And I was gonna say, is it the kind of thing like when you do a run to set like you sort of find a reason not to get back so quickly? Yeah, sure. No, I or I had to wait for something to come back. But no, and the D P was Peter Deming and I remember just being completely in awe of what was going on on set. And I obviously I got lucky with the the f choice of of film. I mean not that was my choice, but I you know, I learned so much. I was Xerox scene budgets and storyboards and production design, you know, all these things. So I kind of got a a little overview of everything. And is part of that experience going I'm figuring out what I don't want to be a part of? So you know, or or did you know you wanted to be in camera? I didn't really know. I also thought editing was very interesting and just from my college you know, documentaries. But you know, it was kind of fun just to see an overview. I ended up working on another film after that as the production assistant, but thought editing was really interesting, so I asked the editor if I could come into cool. So, and that was in New York, and I flew myself out. They I think they what it they paid for something. I think they or maybe they paid for my flight and I paid for my apartment or it was some weird arrangement. But I worked two months with two assistant editors and th they shot on film. So my job was to reconstitute the trims. So, you know, they're cutting They had just tons of strips of film and I would reel I would take, you know, splice those trims back into the reels. Was this back because I vaguely remembered there was like this there was like this basket with this thing over it with hooks and you would put the film on the hook and it would hang down in the basket. No, I remember that too. Because we had it at film school and I remember it was funny because they were they were shooting on film, they wanted to project on film, but they were editing on avid. So then they w we would conform the work print to the avid cut because they wanted to screen this is Paul Schrader. This was it was a movie called Touch. Ed Lockman was a DP. I lucked out, I know my first PA jobs, I lucked out with the DPs. That's incredible. So but they wanted to screen on on on film. So I spent two months in a room with two assistant editors and after that I realized I did not want to do that. I don't want to do this. I wanna I wanted to be on set. But but you know, but that's I think That's so much well, that's so much of life is like it's figuring out what you don't want to do. Because not everybody goes, I know what I want to do when they do it and it's great. You know? It's you gotta go down a lot of roads. Yeah. So after that, I mean it's it was fun to spend a couple of months in New York. You know, that was as a young twenty, whatever. it was a fun experience. But then I got back to LA I pretty sure I just moved home for a bit 'cause I didn't know what I was doing. And my dad worked at USC. And he gave me a school newspaper one day and there was an article about a cinematographer named Judy Irola. And I can still remember seeing this article and you know, she had this like cool short, spiky black haircut and and it said Lady of the Lens. And I remember reading this article and she was this real trailblazer, she was the third woman in the ASC. Wow. And like she was part of this film collective in San Francisco in the seventies and and then ended up doing a film, I think through that, that, you know, won the camera door at Cannes and one at Sundance. And she was a cinematography professor at USC. And I remember being really excited to wanna I I'm like, I wanna go study with her. So I ended up going to US C. and you know, I I was there to study cinematography. I was Did you take courses with her? I did. But it was a general production degree I was getting, but I focused on cinematography. So everybody knew I was there for cinematography. So I ended up shooting a dozen short films and kind of really went onto that. Wait, so this was grad school? I was grad school. Okay. Yeah. And and is it the kind of thing at US C grad school where you go I am here to be a cinematographer, so I will shoot or No, I was there to be a pr a production student, but I was definitely gravitating towards that and I seemed to be able to do all right. And then and people would ask me to shoot their shortcomers. So yeah, it was kind of my own, I guess, design of like I didn't direct a thesis project. I just shot a lot of other people's. But you know, I had some great teachers there. I had Judy. I worked I was a TA for Woody Omens who who had done you know a lot of the Eddie Murphy movies did coming to America. and then my last year there, my cinematography teacher was William Fraker, who did Rosemary's Baby. And it was his first time teaching ever. And he he was so fun. He was like, I don't know what you kids want to learn. Like, you know, he really and so it was kind of like whatever we, you know, he's like, Is this interesting to you? And we were like, Yes, it is. That's so funny. So I can think of like specific things from all of those teachers that, you know, just have stuck with me for, you know, twenty five years. Just like I remember, you know, Bill Fraker, he he grew up when You know, actors were the you know, put on these pedestals and it's you know, the magic of the movies. I mean, I guess that's still there, but there was something, you know, he was there in the Yeah, and people wore suits and stuff like that. It's a different world. And so I r I remember a little bit of advice he gave us, you know, as a student, you don't necessarily know where to put the camera, but you might line up somebody on a you know, somebody's face and he'd be like, When you're at the theater, you know, you're sitting in a chair, you're looking up at the screen. They're bigger than life. When you set your camera Drop it three inches. Make your camera, you know, the the audience and and look up at them. Like not, you know, I mean it's just interesting to think about even Sometimes I think about these little tidbits of advice from legendary people I've had the opportunity to work with or study with and That's amazing. And they just they kind of just stick with you. Like now it seems obvious, but at the time it was like, I'd never thought of that before. Like even like Judy Irola, she did a lot of documentary and I took a documentary class with her. And you know, when you when you first start your you're the camera's on your shoulder and you're you want to keep it really steady and you kind of z tighten up your body and and you're just standing there and you're panning around watching the action. She's like, You can be a participant. When they move, you move. You're not a tripod. You know? And it's like she really helped me loosen up and so Yeah, if they walk away from you, you walk. When they come, you walk back. You know, just again, so obvious, but when you're a kid and you're starting out and you're just don't want to screw up. You're trying to hold your shots steady. So yeah, I still think about these little that's really cool. That's really cool. I wonder what Bill Fricker would say now that everybody looks things on phones. And then one other thing I'll just say, one thing that kind of stuck with me from Woody, For I I was doing a I think like some kind of in-house documentary about the film school and I and we were interviewing Woody Owens and I you know, I f I framed up my shot, I did the lighting, and we did s you know, some questions and he said, Can I see the image? And he noticed there was a little piece of lint on his shoulder. And he said, This is your responsibility, this is your job to make your subject You know, you have to protect their image. A hundred percent. And again, I hadn't thought about that. But now, you know you know, and now like as a as a camera operator on set, if if I'm seeing, you know, a hair out of place or a piece of lint on their shirt, I always think about Woody Oman's telling me. Because you think, okay, there's ten other twenty other eyes on this right now. Someone must hair and makeup and the director and Maybe they're all looking at something else. Hopefully not their phone. But but I I know what you mean. I mean there has there is this weird thing, especially now that we have H D video, and now that the truth of the matter is, most people actually see an image that's slightly better than what I'm looking at on the camera or bigger anyway. That you sort of look at things and you go, Well, I mean other people are seeing that, right? And then, you know, you bring it up anyway and they're like, Yeah, yeah, we're fine with that. But but But a lot of times you bring it up and we're like, Hey, can h hair come in and fix something? Or like is is that elephants supposed to be in the back of his room my gosh, I didn't even see that 'cause they are looking at their phone or something. Yeah. But no, I it again it's like learning what the responsibilities are as as a camera. That's really cool. Yeah. I like the fact that he basically though didn't just flick it off. He basically turned to you and said, This is your job Well he didn't know it was there. Yeah. On the eyes. So yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but I once he saw it, once he realized it was there. That's great. So so so when you came out of what's grad school, two years? if for some reason it was three. Okay. You had a good time. I d well no, I mean that's just the program. I first of all I just wanna say in no way is grad school necessary to do my job. Like and most of my experience I think was working on other people's films on the weekend and you know, learning by trial and error. But I it was a great time to play. And I was very lucky because my dad did work at US C. I that helps. Yeah, that's kind of a free ride there. So I I was I was just there to learn and and Yeah. Well but the thing is that's like I mean look, everybody has different things. For me it was music videos, like rap music videos when I started out. But there are those things that you do, be it grad school or be it music videos for me or something for someone else, where you can make your mistakes and it's not gonna kill you. It's not gonna ruin and you need to make those mistakes because that's how you learn, right? I mean, like you screw up or Or you don't see a piece of lint and then I'm sure after that you like never missed a piece of lint or whatever because you're looking for it, right? But you don't want to do that on you know, on Captain Marvel. You want to do that in grad school. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, I mean film school was it was a great time. And then actually Judy Arvola was the one who nominated me for the ASC student award. that's cool. Yeah. And that was so I I'm I'm not familiar with that award. Is that is that for For something so that's for something that you shot? Yeah, I mean for lighting. I my my situation was a little unusual because again, I had done so many I did I think twelve student films. That seems like a lot. And I had cut a little reel together of a bunch of them and that's what I submitted and I don't think that's the norm. The norm. That's all right. But anyway, I I somehow That's cool. I d I did received that awards. And and did you actually like go to the clubhouse and get the No, was that it was that the ASC awards, like the big to do. is it the the full awards. that's really cool. And it was funny 'cause the year before I was a volunteer at the table signing people in. That's so great. So I mean w like did you go and there were just all these people that you've read about and heard about and whatever? Yeah. I mean and and Laszlo Kovacs was presenting the award to me and it was really Did you have to make you have to make a speech? I think I did, yes. I it's all blacked out for sure. I was gonna say completely pet petrified. That's really neat. Thank my my mentors from USC especially and w was was Fraker there and like Woody Omens and Blues Guns? Yeah, I'm sure they I'm sure they were all there. That's so cool. That's really neat. This was in two thousand eight. Although at the same time I just thinking about it myself, I I could see it as being completely overwhelming and petrifying and everything else like Yeah. What am I doing here? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But no, it's I think it was the third year I remember Lisa Wiegend received it I think the year before, two years before. And I remember being inspired by her. And That's really cool. And I you know, I think the ASC has definitely made an effort to be more inclusive and you know, a again it's no longer just a A a white man's club. Which it was for a while. It's funny because I've talked with other people about that and I mean I it'd be interesting to hear what you what you think of it, but I never sort of saw it as like let's keep people out. I I I think it was more just sort of people tend to sort of pull in the people who they know who are like them and it just sort of was this thing that was happening and then people were like, Wait, this isn't okay and I think for a long time, you know, there there just weren't a lot of women cinematographers and camera operators. and because there weren't opportunities, but also I don't know if women realized that they could do the job. Yeah. Well it wasn't being offered to the It wasn't being offered. And I do remember actually at UCSD one of my first camera classes, you know, I we were shooting on I don't know what, beta or something. Yeah. And every like we had one camera and everybody's kind of crowding around it and it was all the guys crowding around it. And it wasn't until we did our individual projects where we each had our little handicam that you know, I got my shot. I gotcha. I just I wasn't gonna be aggressive at that time and try to find my way in there. I I s no, I I I see what you're saying. B there is a societal thing there, right? Which is just I don't know, it's unfortunate. And I think that's gone. And I think now with you know, everybody has a a movie camera basically in their pocket, there's it's really leveled the playing field. A hundred percent. Yeah, more s more than leveled their playing field. I did a show a little while ago where we had two interns, trainees, I guess. Interns. Yeah, I guess they were interns. a guy a guy and a woman and and he was just Mr. like right in there every time asking every single question this and just and then I noticed that she would you know, sh like you said, she would sort of stand back a little bit, but it was clear that she was taking everything in. And then she would come in after he was done and ask one question, but always at the right time. And, you know, when I had time to answer it. Like, you know, and I ve clearly having thought about the timing of asking the question, having thought about the question. And it was generally so such a better question for information than the thirty things that have been said otherwise. And it was it it was something that I noticed and it was really interesting to me. Plus she's an observer, you know. Absolutely. But but I mean it w I I guess the reason why I say it is in a weird way, it's sort of what you were talking about. But I think that she actually benef benefited from it. 'Cause she's also getting all the information that he's asking, but she's not asking thirty five questions. She's only asking the one that you know so yeah. Anyway, everybody works differently. Were you w what year what year was this? Or what years were you in grad school? I graduated in ninety nine. Ninety nine. So were there was it mostly men in the class? Or were there were there women? I can't remember if she was or became, but she was the head of the cinematography department. Okay. So, you know, I mean that was definitely inspiring. And so what'd you so you got out of grad school and then Okay. So let's see. I yeah, and then so after grad school As an ASC award winner, I'll just throw that out. yeah, okay. Good point. So yeah, exactly. So here I am, I've just won, you know, a student ASC award and I'm like, I have access to To everyone. I can just write a letter and say, hey, you know. Yeah. And so I I did write actually I wrote Roger Deacons an email. And I said, Do you do you ever take on interns? And he actually responded and wrote a very polite email back and said, No. All right. There you go. So that was that. So right out of film school, I knew I'd met Robert Primes. he was doing some kind of experimental short, it was H D, you know, new technology. Okay, that was a new thing. So it was like he was testing. He is a cinematographer for people don't know him. Yeah and I I knew somebody who knew somebody and anyway I got a job as the the camera intern. And it was my first time working, you know, with professional camera assistants and DP and you know I did a lot of cabling monitors and and that kind of stuff. And I thought, okay, well this is this is how you do it. You get a job As a it's a camera intern, you make your you work your way up as an assistant, operator, and DP. This is when I thought, you know, I was gonna be on the D P track. Yeah, yeah. And that didn't lead anywhere. But I did go I did get a call. or yeah, it was a somebody from USC knew a producer on a new reality show that had been a big hit in Germany and they were bringing it to the US and it was called Big Brother. And I you know, I thought great, a network show and they're they're hiring green operators. I was gonna but there must be like a lot of operators on that show. And that's why I got a job. Yeah, well no, but I mean that I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I mean I I had no experience professionally, but I had been shooting a lot in film school, so I knew my way around a camera somewhat. And I got an interview for this job and they needed a lot of camera operators and a lot of camera operators that were okay shooting Around the clock at all hours from behind you know a a double sided mirror. So so was the technical director on that was his name Gene? yeah. Gene, I can't think of his last name. But I so so I did I did ER Live with him and I did Failsafe live with him and I think on Golden Pond Live with him or whatever. He was like a big live guy. Can't think of his name. But I ran into him at were you guys at Universal? we were Universal Studios? No. We were at CBS Radford. okay. And they built they built the house in a parking lot. so maybe it was a later season because I remember being very I ran into him and I said, What are you doing? He said, Big brother, and I said, that must be interesting. And he said, come on and see. And we went inside of a stage, but there was a house built into the stage. But outside the house were these like cameras on tracks and it was there were these There were these two way windows and all I remember thinking was, this is just really kind of sketchy feeling. It's super creepy. It's so creepy. Yeah, and so I spent my first my first professional job I spent in the dark behind these you know It's like a peep show basically. It really was. And we had these cameras on elevated tracks and we would zip them around and you know, you pull your own focus, it's zoom, you kind of but we had I mean, I don't know. We had I remember I was doing like the five PM shift and you would go and then, you know, they had little cots in the back, you take a nap and everybody's sleeping and then you wake up with the Until something happens and they go get up and so yeah, but I mean as a I I how old was I? I was out of film school, so I was mid twenties and you know, I was working on a network show. There was something exciting about it. I mean it was also, you know, a little monotonous at the time. But I was so grateful for the opportunity. Sure. You're getting look, you're getting paid to learn s something. I mean the cold time. But you're not losing money to learn it. But let me ask you a question about that. So first of all, like an eight hour shift or what's your shi w how long is it? Ten or twelve. Yeah. Probably ten. And do do you have like is it Sarah, you're watching the living room and the dining room and if something happens in there you have to find it or or or Yeah, we had, you know, there are the direct technical technical directors, producers, everybody everybody on headset, they'd be like, let's go follow the story and you know, you zip over into another room and and usually two, three cameras on any scene just to you know, you would cross cover and y and so basically do they say, Sarah, you have Joe and you just follow Joe and and then someone else is following someone else or you'd follow the story and then whoever you'd you know, whoever's face is facing you, you're on that person. But that's that's like really valuable I mean that kind of storytelling has to seep into you, right? Especially when you go, I totally missed the story, it's over here or whatever. Yeah. That's amazing. So I ended up doing the first three seasons and I met great people on the show. I mean other you know, people I'm still really good friends with that I met season one. That's great. And directors that went on and did other shows. There was a director, Brian Smith, who I worked with, I mean, we probably did, you know, ten or twelve shows together, the big brother, and then he started doing reality shows that we weren't h hidden behind glass. and that's when I first started doing handheld. So I you know, I remember doing a f a show with him and It was a full handheld day, you know, and I at the end of the day I was kind of in shock and I'm like, wow, everything hurts and And those are big cameras. I those were small cameras. Yeah, they were big cameras with tapes with like cassette tapes. And I r I just remember being really surprised that this was what I had chosen as my profession 'cause everything hurt. And I wasn't in I wasn't in the proper camera operator shape to to be able to do that. But at the time you're young and you just you muscle through and you power through and you'd take some advil at the end of the day. Well and the thing is I don't care how much how good of a shape you're in. I mean twelve hours with a camera on your shoulder is tough on anyone. I mean that's just that's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And I you know, it was nobody ever taught me how to to be a camera operator in that kind of s situation. Nobody like I guess, you know, the biggest piece of advice for up and coming operators, especially doing documentary and sure and handheld body mechanics. Like I mean, I wish contract services, you know, you do all your safety classes. It should be. But you should do a body safety class which is how to how to stand and how to how to hold the camera and and actually even understanding like what what connects to what and and and you know, all that stuff. Because I know I hurt my back. Yeah. For I did reality shows for ten years. Ten years. Yeah. And just even I can't imagine picking out the camera, bending over, twisting, picking it up, throwing it on your shoulder, and back down and back up and back down. Sure. Like nobody ever told me the proper way to do That's probably more dangerous than having it on your shoulder for two hours. Because at least that you know exactly what it is and and it's it's a straight line and my gosh, I can't even imagine that. Yeah. But you know, it was like I I am grateful for those ten years. I am grateful for like I okay. I came out of film school thinking I wanted to D P movies. And at the same time I was doing these reality shows, I was doing independent features. You know, so I I ended up doing four. As an operator. As a D P. As a D P. Okay. But just, you know, small, low budget. But were you operating yourself? Yes. Okay. So small cruise. Yeah. We I did I did two on film. You know, so a lot of great opportunities and experiences doing that. But I wasn't making any money doing that. I was working as a camera operator on reality shows. Yeah. But every reality show, I mean, there was great travel, I I got to go around the world, I made amazing friends, and I was constantly honing, practicing my craft of camera operating. So even when I was shooting some silly dating show. Yeah. You know, you're still looking for the angles, you're working with the other camera operators, you're figuring out the dance, how to cover a scene, what pieces of coverage do they need. Aaron I was gonna say, are you editing in your head or or not editing but going, okay, I I have to make sure to get this and I need to So you're you're in the scene, you maybe two cameras are on a conversation, you know, you're back and forth getting all that, but you can't that's not a scene until you get your your wide shots, your your big wide shots where you don't see their mouths moving. you know, details, your inserts, all those things. So you're constantly thinking of all the things that you need. So that in and of itself helps you d in the long run, because as an A camera operator on a feature or a T V show, it's like, yeah, you're operating, but you're thinking about four other things that you have to keep in mind. Right. So that that kind of mental Olympics. And when you're doing something like that, like let's say you have a a scene with two people, is there a Is there like a lead camera operator that the other person sort of takes off of or does does it Well sometimes an unspoken one. But well yeah. I mean sometimes like and I was DPing some reality shows too and but still as an you know, you would still be operating. okay. So if that's the case, if the D P is operating then you know, obviously you defer to Yeah yeah, of But for the most part we're just we were all kind of on the same You're both getting overs or whatever and and trying to keep out of each other's way. Exactly. That's kind of a but I mean Again, it just must be from doing it so much. It just there must be things that seep in that you still to this day. for sure. And little things like I worked with a D P named Sean McKelvey who I thought was he was so good at lighting. And, you know, somebody as somebody who came from film school also being really interested in lighting, I you know, I was very I was I was always paying attention to what he was doing, but he gave me some pointers that I've I still think of you know, I still think every time I'm setting up a shot, which was he w like we would do these kind of elaborate interview setups with and he would light the background really interesting, but he was always talking about finding within a frame the contrast of, you know, background and foreground and how to make the subject pop from the background. So, you know, he would be you'd have your key side, you'd have your shadow side. He would always put a dark background behind his key side and a little glow behind his shadow side. Yeah. Which, you know, you see an image like that and it pops and there's a lot of dimensionality to it, but you don't necessarily know why it works. So he broke it down. He w he broke it down and he explained it to me because he was the DP, but we would all go off and sh and set up our own interviews and he wanted them to have a uniform look. And so now let's say I'm on a on a set and I'm the B operator and a DP is lit. And I'm finding my frame, and I'm like, if I move the camera over three inches, I can get that little bit of glow behind his shadow side and he's gonna pop. Which nobody's told me to do that. But if I had a shadow side against a dark shadow on the wall, it just it blends. Yeah. And so, you know, little things on you know, this is a reality show interview setup, but I think of that to this day when I'm when I'm looking for that V angle. How do I How do I take the shot that I've been assigned and make it a little better? Yeah. If I if I put that little bit of contrast that is there, but you have to still put the camera in the right place to find it. Yeah. that's amazing. So what was the most enjoyable reality show you did? I don't know. Well you could tell you. Sure. Well, no, you can't, because we're going to talk about that in a minute. the face But you can interpret that however you want, either experience or or whatever, or or or they all just have their pluses and minuses. They all have their pluses and minuses. Like I did you know, some America's next hut model and we went to Italy. We went to China. When you go to Italy and China, do you have time to like mess around and and you have a day off here and there. Yeah, yeah. But you still get to see the still, I mean, we're shooting on the Great Wall of China, a photo shoot. That's pretty cool. How did I get here? That is pretty cool. They definitely have their their And I mean, the crews are all so great, and you just have you know, it's you're playing. It's like this is a this is a long shot, but Pauline Edwards wasn't with you when you were no, we I Pauline from America's Mexico. I interviewed Pauline and she's told me about this story before too. But apparently when she went to China, she had never traveled like anywhere. And so she c she backed an entire suitcase full. Full of like hair care products and like like industrial sized shampoo and stuff like that. She was just like, I don't know what's gonna be and Pauline, or anybody who doesn't know, has like very long hair that, you know, I mean there's a lot to it. But it was just funny, and she was talking, she's Yeah, I'm lugging this stuff around, and then these these pros are coming in with like their very specifically, you know, packed whatever's it's kinda I actually I don't having nothing to do with this, but because I ran into it once, when you When you do a lot of traveling like that, do you learn all sorts of like traveling tips that just make it easier over time that like how to pack and what to pack and all that stuff? I'm sure. I mean I I don't remember specifically. The reason the reason I ask is I did a I did a documentary in Haiti and the sound guy that I was with w did America's g gr the no the great race or the the one that goes all you know, everywhere and they have to follow these people as they're amazing race. Amazing race, yeah. And he had this thing where because we were sharing a tent together, every day's clothing was in a Ziploc bag. And it was so But it was but it was so funny because I was like, What is that all about? And he goes, Listen, after you've been running around after people for fourteen hours a day, you don't wanna think. So if I reach in here and grab a Ziploc bag, it has everything I need for the day. I take my dirty clothes off, I put it in there, I put it in the bottom or another compartment, and I'm done and I was like, That's kinda genius. Yeah. No, I I remember I mean in Italy on America's Snake's Top Model it felt like the amazing race because I mean the show is it's a little crazy. Like you're assigned one contestant. So here you are with, you know, an eighteen year old from Minnesota and they they're they give her the assignment, Okay, now you're gonna go meet with these five designers in Milan and go. And they don't know how to go and where to go. And we you have one crew. And you have to go wherever they go. Yeah. So we you know, you have Camera sound, camera assistant and a producer and you are literally run she's running down the street. It's a hundred degrees, hundred percent humidity, hopping on a bus, getting on a train, you know, it's just completely nuts. I felt like we had run a marathon. That's insane. And there's no you don't stop because they have a time limit. And also not to mention that like you said, there's an eighteen year old from Minnesota who's probably never been to Italy who's calling the shots here. Yes. In and of itself doesn't seem like a great great beginning. But I guess that's part of the charm of the show. Exactly. So it was it was an adventure for sure. That's great. So so you d you did ten years, you said, of of reality. And then and then did that get you to the office? It did. And again, you know, you just everybody has such a unique path and I didn't really know where my path was going, but I had I felt as though I had definitely done what I wanted to do in The run and gun world, and I was interested in getting back to where I started, which was, you know, a a scripted TV film. And I I was interested in getting back into that world. Aaron Was something where you you sort of went, I'm I'm not finding this as enjoyable anymore, not finding it as exciting. It's time to move to the next like was there were you aware that it's like, okay, I think I need to make a change? Yes, I think so. I I was on a show called The Apprentice at the time. Was this with the He Who Shall Not Be Named? Yeah. Okay. but I do remember That's enough to make anybody change. I remember that that sh at that point the show w had lost some of the I don't know. I don't know if we want to talk about them. You don't have to go into details. I have so much respect for the people that work in reality shows. It's it's hard work. And it has to be. and I'm really grateful for my time doing it. 'Cause I learned so much. But there was part of me that also really missed the more formal, scripted world. And I was looking for a way to get back into it. And it's kind of a funny way that it happened. And it's so completely by chance. Like I had it out there in my you know, I I was I think I was trying to manifest it, but you know, how do you do that, right? But I I did I was day playing on a show I'd never worked on before, American Idol. And I met I was paired up with an another guy and we were shooting interviews of people going in and auditioning. And we we spent the whole day together. His name was Owen Smith and we were talking about working on reality shows and working on scripted and and I told him, I'm like, I'm really looking for a way back in. At that time, Parks and recreation had just started. And he got a call to day play on it and he couldn't do it that week. And I was fresh in his mind. And he's like, you know, I I know somebody might be good for this and he threw my name in. I was also lucky because the two operators, Shauna Hagen and Tom McGill, were people I knew from The Apprentice. well there you go. And so my name came along, they vouch for me and I got a day. That's so cool. So that was my f that was my end. Do you remember what episode? I don't but I'm a huge personal fan. I love that show. I you know, I I walked on a set, it was all new, the camera was familiar, the shooting style was familiar, but I didn't really know how it all worked. And I You were on as like a C camera operator. Okay. And I was very lucky. Nick Offerman came right up to me and basically and basically explained. He said, Welcome. He's a very nice guy. He's wonderful. welcome to the show. I just want you to know this is how we work with cameras. We often look right into the lens. You are a character in the show. He gave me the little overview. That makes that that like warms my heart. I would tell you, shameless plug to anybody listening, read Nick Oferman's Build Your Own Canoe. It's such a great book and he is such an interesting individual. Yeah. But he basically welcomed me and empowered me to do what I do and that comfort level to you know and like not be taken off guard when the actors look right into the lens. Which by the way I mean, well, i it might not have affected you because you're on reality T V so maybe that happens occasionally or maybe it doesn't. I don't know. They don't want it to happen. they don't? Okay. So they're like in documentary, you want to be a fly on the wall. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. I I didn't know. But but definitely scripted if someone looks in the front lens, you're like, woo I mean it's actually alarming when it happens. So that's really that's that's so cool though. Like what a great And then the D P on Parks and Recreation at the time, Peter Smokler. Love Peter Smoke. Amazing, lovely person. super friendly, also explaining the rules of the game. He also did the pilot of the office. And I didn't know that. Yeah, okay. And I did I made a I made an effort, I made a point to sit with him at lunch. And I'm so glad I did because he was also on another show called It's All of Sunny in Philadelphia. yeah, sure. And he was really I think amused at the fact that they shot with these prosumer cameras. Yeah, it's like these little like off the shelf cameras. And he was telling me all about that show and he's like, You should come by. You should come by for a visit. And I said, I would love to do that. So I followed up. Of course, this is before, you know I mean f sets were a lot more open back then, I think pre COVID and all that stuff. Yep, yep, yeah. That's but that is what it is. So I went to go visit that set and I was I lucked out. The director of that episode happened to be Riandall Einhorn, who I was familiar with because he was the D P of the office. Uh-huh. So I'm you know, here's the thing. I'm I am not a schmoozer, I'm not like super outgoing person, but I got really lucky because I got I was somehow f fell into positions where I was able to speak with some of these people that I knew I wanted to work with. But I also have to assume th I mean knowing you that You didn't sit down to pee next to Peter Smokler and Hey, is there a chance I can have a job? You probably sat down next to him. We're just like an interesting individual and were nice and he talked to you for a while and was like, she's she's actually enjoyable and whatever. And that's probably why it's probably about cameras. I yeah, or or exactly or or whatever. You know, Peter Peter's thing is he's like a speed skater. He's a he's a professional. He's like a pr I I I always it's funny 'cause he said to me he's a professional speed skater before and I'm kinda like, I don't understand what that means. Does it mean like you have like Sponsors or but but he races. He races. He's also a rollerblader. He would operate well and for people that don't know, he also was the DP of this is Spinal Tap. I was just gonna bring that up. But but before that, which you probably know is like he used to do documentaries about like rock and roll bands in the seventies. Is he ever did you ever tell you about the story about how he upset who directed Spinal Tap? I can't think of his name. I hate to say this, but mead head from all in the family. Princess Pride. Rob Runner, Rob Runner. Is a you know, Spinal Tap was like the craziest like rock and roll things, whatever. And they'd shoot stuff and Rob would look at Peter and Peter p he'd be like, Well, yeah, I mean I've seen worse than that. That's because he had. But he's such a wonderful guy. So great. Yeah. that's great. But yeah, no, he I actually talked to him earlier this year. He called me for something that I couldn't do. And he's like, you know, I'm like, How have you been? He's like, Well, I just won. He's like in his age range, which is seventy. I know at like some he won non Olympics Olympics of speed skating. It's just so funny. I love it. Yeah, no, he's he's such a great guy. And the other thing I love about working with him is I don't care what I've ever worked with him on and it's usually it's usually like half hour sort of I don't want to say sitcom, that's the wrong word, but like, you know, half hour comedy stuff or whatever. It's like he's just so excited about like, yeah, we'll get the camera here, we'll get the we'll do this. He's he's great. So yeah, so he invited me to the set of It's All With Sunny in Philadelphia. and I ended up doing an episode and working with Randall Linehorn. Uhhuh. And I mean Sunny's super fun to work with, but I was also at the time thinking, this is my audition for the office. I okay. So wait, but so you didn't know Randall from the office, you just knew that he didn't this was this is before the office. Sonny and So it was parks and recreation. Sunny, that's where I met Randall, and then Randall and I asked Randall for a set visit to the office. But the office was going on already, right? I see what you're saying. I started into the office season six. Okay. So I was already a fan. Gotcha. That's that's really cool. And was that just a blast? It was very cool. By the way, if you had told me it wasn't, I would just end this now because I would. I can totally imagine. I mean, it's that My kids and I we know we know the whole thing by heart. It's just s we've seen it so many times. It and it's weird. I think you and I were talking about this. There's a weird thing that happened during the pandemic where it almost became like comfort food for a lot of people. It's like they could just like turn it on and be like, this is warm and fuzzy and and Yeah, and I like kids are discovering it for the first time. It's wild, right? Yeah, it's wild. But wha are you are you fighting laughing when you're shooting the show? oftentimes, yes. I do remember numerous times where I actually couldn't physically focus my eyes on the action that was happening and I would look at the headroom. I would look at anything I could to not you know, I'm like, I I know what the frame should look like. So I'm gonna look at the headroom and just the edges of the frame, knowing that the person is doing something in the frame that I can't actually look at. You can't you can't look at it because you're gonna blow I will have an audible laugh. Did you ever blow it? I there were a couple. Not not not out of control. No, I know, but I mean there and there's I mean you can find Like ridiculous bloopers too, which you know, tripping and all those things. So I I blew it in that in that respect. But I no, it was it was I've done that once or twice before on comedies where and thankfully it's been with good people where the person who I have the over the shoulder of, so their back is to me and I'm right behind them, sort of stops and goes, Well, apparently Dave found that funny and it's just like you just you just wanna die inside and at the same point you're like, I'm actually like sort of supporting your performance on some level. Right, exactly. But That's great. Was there was there one particular person who who tended tended to send you more than anyone else or I yeah, I mean Steve Crowell, of course, and Ed Helms and I don't know. I I There's so many funny people in the show. Is there a lot of ad libbing on that show? Aaron Surprisingly it was really the the actors stuck to the the written word. And there were t there were usually a writing team of two that were on set and they they guarded the you know, a script supervisor, they were guarding the the The words on the page. So the scripts were just that funny. They the scripts were that funny. At the end of you once we got the scripted version, there was always a fun run. And then they got super wacky. But and I I'm sure a lot of that made it into the show, but they always got it verbatim first. First, yeah. Yeah. That's great. I I I sort of have to wonder you said you started season six. Mm-hmm. I sort of have to wonder, especially with a show like that, if by season six those characters are so defined that it almost becomes easier to write a not i that it's easy, but do you know what I mean? Like at the first they're trying to find it and by then you sort of know how Michael would respond to something or you know how Jim would respond to something or whatever, do you know? Yeah, I'm sure that's what a what a what a great thing to be a part of. And how many years did you do that show? So I started day playing on season six by I was full time by the end of it and then I did seven, eight and nine. That's great. Yeah. And and you Is there an A camera, B camera on the show or something? There is. The A camera is it's funny. So the the D P shoot the D P operates. okay. So that's the D P and the one other operator. Gotcha. so the technically the D P obviously is the A camera, but they're on the B cam 'cause yeah. They're doing other things. But they're doing other things. So and then I ended up DPing ten episodes because our operator Matt Soan, who became the D P ended up directing how great. So he so it was Randall and and Matt and then then Randall was just directing and then started directing other shows and then Matt moved up and and then I moved up a little too. And and by the way, w one of those shows where the camera is a character in the show. I mean there's no question about it. Absolutely. And it was fun because there I mean we we obviously had direction, but we worked so much the two operators worked so much with each other to figure out what lines we were gonna cover. Like that was really kind of up to us. And when we'd go over to find a line, there's so much, you know, whip panning. Yeah. And it would be like, well I can go get this one. Why don't you go, you know, so there was a lot of discussion like that. So you'd watch the rehearsal and then you sort of huddle and go, I can grab this or you grab that. And okay, I'm gonna set up over here, you're gonna set up in this corner. We're gonna both rotate, you know, left when this happens. And so we kind of discuss that. and then another thing we would do, you know, we would have some discussion with actors because sometimes there's so much back and forth and you can't catch every word. Yeah. And we figured out, okay, if we can just ask them for a little bit of a handle, like a little utterance. Yeah. So sometimes you'd be like, if you could s before your line, do you mind just saying well or or something? And that would give us you know they were cool with it. So you're not just Just well because it because it just becomes ping pong. Right. And also you don't want to look like you're anticipating. Yes. You don't you want to look like it's a natural find. Yeah, yeah. Which which is also part of your character. Like you don't know what happened in another. So and there was there it was such kind of an open family feel on the show. Yeah. I always felt very comfortable to talk to the actors and and I've again I'd been there for multiple seasons. And I I wish I could remember this the exact scene, but it was a scene where Jim and Dwight both had You they were trying to pull off a prank on the other one. Yeah. And I was in a position where they each character wanted to feel like the camera team was kind of on their side. was in on it. Was in on it, exactly. So I went over to so I w so I went over to John Krasinski and I just said, Hey, you know, I'm I'm gonna be right here if you wanna throw me a look. And then I went secretly over to Reyn Wilson. I'm like, I'm gonna be over here if there's a time you wanna throw me a look. Yeah. And so it was Without them knowing. Without them knowing and without even the director knowing. Yeah. But it it worked perfectly because and it kind of worked in one shot. And it was like, you know, I wasn't overstepping any directorial mounts. I was just letting them know I knew what they were gonna do. Yeah. Or what they wanted to do. And I was just letting them know where I could be to to receive that look. Sure. And it it kind of all came together and worked and you know, no nobody knew that I But those are those great moments where you where you've crafted something. Yeah. But but again, as I said, I mean the conceit of that show literally is that you're a character. It's I mean people say on ER that like the camera was a character, and in some levels it was, but like literally the conceit of the show is there's a person there. Yeah. And you're not a character. that's that's fantastic. how much did you bring from reality TV to To your sensibilities there. I mean, d did it all transfer over? I mean is it just both I mean not only were we just the you know doing the camera operating, but we were also pulling focus. We were setting our eye rooks. Yeah. Well if have you seen the show? I have, but but here's the thing, but you c you We buzz it. Yeah, I mean but sometimes people will buzz it so it feels that way. I don't know you're pulling your own. We do it yeah. No, we do we're we're Iris, Zoom, and Focus. So you were perfectly situated for this. Yeah. But it like I you know, you don't even think about it because I had ten years of reality where it's it I like I to I maybe equate it to like playing an instrument. Like, you know, I don't play the trombone, but I've seen it. And like there are no marks on that side, right? And so but you just you know where it is to hit those notes. So I think it's you know, we're playing the lens, basically. but it was fun because you're I mean I love focus pullers. I don't want the responsibility. But I could I didn't have to communicate with anybody when to go to what person. You know, it was all on me. And I also find that in you know, I did other mockumentary style shows where we do have a bigger camera and a focus polar. And when the director says, Can you make it look a little messy with the you know the focus? It never looks as No, no, I it isn't. There's no question about it. I to be honest, I don't think I thought about it that much. But and and zooming our area. It's on a servo. But but are you but you're doing it yourself. Yeah. And and are those just I feel it at the moment. Exactly. Yeah. We're listening to the story and seeing when the jokes land and we're punctuating. Wow. Talk about having to really focus on the scene. I mean and be you have to know every word. You have to know every word. So you're studying your sides, you're watching the rehearsal, you're learning the lines. That's great. You have to know That's amazing. Yeah. And are you on a headset? this is a while ago now. Yeah, I th we must have been. You know, it's funny, I can't even remember. Okay. No, because the the one thing that I'm thinking about is to do all that and have someone in your ear would be would be near. so yeah, there's nobody talking to you in the middle probably. I don't think there w again, we finished the show I think ten years ago, now. Yeah. So if anything you were on a headset so that he could talk to you in the minute between I mean, I prefer it where you do a take and then you know Have a quick discussion. People actually look at each other and say something. And then there can be notes and then you do it again. I when when we did ER Live, which was handheld, I was one of the lead camera operators and there was so so it was the same thing where I was a reporter, quote unquote, but there was an actor who was doing my lines behind me. And there was a moment where someone had the idea that it would be cool if I did the lines a and I was actually the the camera operator. And I actually on Sunday I went over to Tony Edwards' house and we ran lines and he gave me some pointers on this and that and the other. And we tried to do one scene with Laura Innis in a in a in an elevator. And the second I started delivering my lines, I realized this is this is possibly the worst worst idea in the world. Number one, first and foremost, because I am not an actor, and I can act like in the camera operator who's not an actor, I do that very well. But in my ear is All right, camera fifty three, get ready for the and Dave, I think you're slightly focused. And maybe you want to zoom out and I'm going I'm trying to like so we finished it and I could see the look in Laura. I Laura was almost like shaking her head and and I'm looking at her with my other eye going, Look, you and I are on the same page that this doesn't work. But that's all I could think about was like having to do all that and having someone in your ears. I think yeah. I mean honestly, like when I'm in the middle of a scene my brain goes in full visual mode and and like sometimes if I have to give notes after Like, you know, or hear notes, like I have to s I have to actually do the switch where I'm gonna go into verbal mode now. Like it's really weird. Like I I I don't know. I I don't know if it's just t two different parts of your brain working. Yeah, well and I think what it is is one is probably being so overwhelmed at the time that the other has to shut down a little bit to to maintain. But I do know that like, especially if I'm doing big steady cam shots, like you know, when you're doing shots, like as the shot is going You're following the action and you're thinking about the lines and whatever, but you're also going, I gotta remember to ask them to bring that light up a little bit next time. And when I finish the shot, I invariably can't remember all the pieces. So what I'll do is I'll usually walk backwards through the shot and then when I you know, when I hit the thing that I've always hit, I go, yeah, I gotta have to not hit that again. But I can't it's the same thing. It's like you only have so much bandwidth, I think. So so where did you go from from there? So the office ended and then I got a job, The produ a producer from the office introduced me to a DP named Mark Doring Powell. yeah. who was doing a show, a new show called Super Fun Night. Super Fun Night. And that was studio mode, no handheld. Cool. And somehow I got the job. even though I didn't really have much experience in that world. And it was, you know, my first like you know I mean the office was in North Hollywood, a little, you know, sound stages. Yeah. kind of in an industrial area. This is now driving onto Warner Brothers, going through security. Do you remember thinking that's pretty cool? Yeah, it was cool. Yeah. I mean it was it was a it was high pressure, for sure. I had a lot to learn. You were B camera on that or C camera or I was B camera. The A camera was Craig Cockerell, who I learned so much from. Again, you know, I'd been Still doing my indie films and operating and trying to figure that out. I had done one a friend from USC had DP'd a film that he asked me to do a camera on. And I remember not really knowing what an A camera operator should be doing exactly. We got through it, you know, it was fine. But I remember right after I was on on the set of Super Fun Night and watching Craig and I'm like, okay. So basically you're just like sucked Soaking it all in of like this is what you do and he's you know, he's running the set, he's placing background, he's talking to the actors, and you know, all the things that I kinda thought, s I mean, I'd done it like as a D P. Yeah. but I I I didn't really know what an A camera operator really did until and that was another thing. I was still at the time thinking I wanted to D P, but I'm like, I wanna get on bigger, more professional sets and see what professionals with a lot of experience actually do. Sure. And that's when I realized I have so much to learn as a camera operator. And I'm gonna really focus on that right now. Well but it sounds like that was the first time you actually saw quote unquote a and I don't mean this in a bad way, but a an a a can an A camera operator doing what an A camera operator does on on most sets. So that must have been totally foreign to it was I mean coming up in indie films, reality shows, documentaries you know, a lot of it you're just kind of making up. And I hadn't seen like the formal system. And so this was my first time. And I don't know why Mark took a chance on me, but he was so crucial in that transition because he I think he saw potential, but he also took the time to I mean, I got a lot of constructive criticism, but he took time to explain things and not just don't do that, but why and what you can do and And again, I I can think of a you know, handful of of those moments of those little aha moments where, you know, I mean again, like setting up background. You know, I didn't know that was the camera operator's job. I thought, the ADs do that. But so I'm setting up a shot and he's he's like, Okay, when you have your shot here, you see there's a whole empty spot here and then these two people are stacked right on top of each other. You have two people and you only see one of Like it's your job, talk to the A D, place them where you want them to make your frame look good. Yeah. You know, just little little pointers too. But it makes perfect sense because the office it there's no background in the office per se. Yeah, it's not as staged. And reality's stage. We didn't set there were no marks on the office ever. So but again, taking the time to explain and not just fix it himself so he didn't have to fix it the next time. I was gonna do it. Yeah. That's great. Another little pointer remember, you know, setting up a scene, two people at a cafe and I'm sure Even though I had Bill Fraker as my teacher, I think I set up the shot at their eye line. no. I know. But you know, Mark was for TV. TV's normally on the same line. Mark came over and he's like, Sarah, if you drop the camera a couple inches, your subject in the foreground is gonna be now a few inches taller than all the background actors and she's gonna stand out. Yeah. Instead of being all at the same, you know, head height. Yeah. And again, it seems so obvious. A little pointer that somebody took the time to explain to me. As opposed to saying drop your camera three inches. Right. And you don't know why. Explaining why. And now they never need to explain it again. That's that's such a valuable lesson for people who like know what they're doing to when giving notes to people who are. I know. It's like finding those unexpected mentors. You know, just And and being curious and open to the information. And not, you know, obviously being humble, walking on set, I don't know everything, I'm open to suggestions you want to give to me. Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time being confident enough to be there. So it's a fine line. But Yeah, but I think what it is is going and even if you disag like even if you look at that and you g it goes down three inches and you go, I I don't like this as much. That's not my what you realize is it's not an affront to you. It's just everybody people have different sensibilities. And and at the end of the day You're the director of photography, this is what you want. That's what I want to do because that's I'm here to to to get your your images. So there but there is a lot of that that humility. Talk to me about it unless I'm mistaken, that would have been the first time that you worked with a professional dolly grip in the way that that people do. Yeah. How was that? Because that's a whole different there's a psychological aspect to that thing. I think it was just, you know, people had So I didn't have one person the whole time, but I, you know, it was a l a a big learning curve for sure. And I was lucky on that feature that I mentioned before that I was the A operator and I didn't really know what I was doing. The dolly grip, I can't remember his name. He knew that I didn't know he he knew that I didn't know what I was doing. And he gave me some terminology. That's great. And just basic, you know, words to say to your dolly grip in a very Concise and economic way. Trevor Do for anybody who doesn't know how to work with a dolly gripper hasn't yet, like do you have any of those words? I don't remember. It's like so that kind of thing and you know, boom up and hold that and just su super simple, like He's like, you can just say hold that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's but that's great because I don't know, but just so there's kind of this uniform language. But even you just alluded to it, there is that thing of you know, take me back on camera, push me forward on camera, take me left on camera, camera as opposed to saying bring the dolly to the right because the dolly may be turned sideways and that may push you forward as opposed to Yeah, but that but and until you someone points that out or you make the mistake and realize what the r that it's the wrong thing, you don't know that. Yeah. But I also remember on on that show, some dolly grips, especially maybe old old school, they're not a fan of the slider because that's taking away from w their job. Yep. Mark loved the slider because I could creep in little moves and little zooms and hide the zooms within the slider, you know. so I remember there was one dolly grip who if I you know, sometimes on his B camera you're stuck in a corner and you can't do the move and you're gonna The dolly can't move 'cause it's trapped. I remember who always felt a little insulted every time I'd asked for a slider. For anybody who's listening who doesn't know what a slider is, it's sort of a little thing that goes between the camera head and the dolly and it has rails and you can do little sort of super smooth moves on it. and again, yeah, some people it's weird because I like it and I don't like it. I my thing with with sliders number one, especially with B camera operators, is just because you have a slider on doesn't mean you have to slide. Right. 'Cause sometimes I find people are like, and I'll keep on doing this, but why are you moving? There's no reason to move. and then the other thing is yeah, there's there's some dolly groups who will realize like, this is just gonna make it that much easier 'cause I won't have to move the track over, you know, whatever. and then there's some who wanna know, be exactly there and I c I could see both points of it. I mean it makes it makes sense. But so Mark loved it when I was on the slider and I could do these little, you know, smooth, like very subtle moves. Yeah. But that was a show where I was like, I need to I need to get on the gearhead. Uhhuh. I this is a skill that I I started practicing way back when. Like do they even have them on reality shows? They've never had one. The office they probably didn't have I did one short and I'm like, I'm gonna do you know, right out of film school. I'm gonna do the whole thing on the gearhead. And I got through it. Yeah. And then I remember like my first feature that I was shooting on film, I had the same thought. I was practicing in pre-production in the production office. And then, you know, we had this one, you know, larger or bigger star come in to do one day and I had my gearhead and I messed up one tilt. I'm like, Bring in the fluid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was it. I got scared. Again, I was DP and operating. Yeah, well there's a of riding on it. And then on the office, you know, we were through Panavision and I said I mean, can we see if there's a panahead s something sitting around? Completely handheld. But I had I had my gearhead. just to practice. By the by the camera room. wow. And I had my little figure eight. that's great. And I would do my little, you know, lunchtime practice. That's all. And so but again, I hadn't had the opportunity to use it. And so that I was on super fun night where I'm like, I gotta learn it. And sometimes Craig would you know, set up a shot and be like, can I can I do a rehearsal? And and You'd asked to do the rehearsal. And there was one time where it was kind of complicated and it was a one er and Craig's like, You wanna you wanna try a rehearsal on this? I'm sorry, but so he was on a geared head, he was using a geared head. He always used a gear head a camera, it was always on a geared. You wanted to jump on there to go, Can I have the opportunity? So they were setting up a one or and he's like, You wanna you wanna give it a shot? And I said, Yes And I did it. And then Mark's like, You wanna do the shot? And I said, Okay. That's cool. That's great. And it was not perfect. But we did it a few times, good enough, and we moved on. And but again, like finding that opportunity where you have people that are supportive enough to give you that chance. Is is is rare. Yeah. And you have to seek it out because you know that doing that one winner. And getting through it gave me the confidence to I can do this. I've done this and and and like you said though, but you didn't do it in a situation where you're like there are people behind the monitor who are gonna fire me if I don't get the you know, you And I knew if I couldn't do it, Craig would jump on and finish the show. And cover for you and and everything else. when I'm when I'm on A camera and someone's on B camera who doesn't, you know, have have that experience, usually what I'll do, especially if we're on remote heads, is I'll I'll let them do the do the rehearsals, sometimes the shots as well, depending on what They are 'cause never want to show s throw someone in. You know, and I'm sure you do the same thing. It's just like 'cause that's that's where you get the Yeah. But I think that, you know, I've my camera assistant, like we poor guy, we would do this thing where I'd put a laser pointer on the gearhead and he would have a laser pointer and he would like draw you know you'd have to follow his place him like on the on the on the sound stage wall and like a cat. Yeah. But I anything you can do, and I think people saw that I was eager and I I wanted to learn, I wanted those opportunities. So did you c how long did you do that show for? It's just one season. So w d was that twelve or twenty four episodes or it was twenty two episodes. So did you come out of that and you were like I I I I can do this? Like I mean, did you have the confidence at that point? for my one winner. No, I definitely didn't have the confidence. But I just mean as being a B camera operator on on a yeah. No, I was feeling good and then I was scripted. Yes. And then But I was still doing the handheld, you know, I did trial and error, that's you know Garfunkel Oates was a very heavy handheld. That was full size Alexa. That's a really funny show that most people haven't seen. I laughed a lot on that one too. So you did this show, twenty two episodes, whatever it was, B camera, and you come out of it and you're like, Okay, I can I can handle B camera on a scripted show and whatever. So how long how long did you sort of do B camera before you jumped up to A camera? It was it wasn't like a real decisive moment of jumping up because I'd been I mean technically I was the A camera operator on the features that I had shot. Sure. And you know, I'd I had done A camera on a another feature a friend had DP'd. Yeah. and some of the office was A camera. So I was still doing And so I did a show Garfunkal Notes as a camera, but that was with the D P was Jay Hunter, who I knew from my reality days. And so we had, you know, kind of come up at the same time and so there wasn't like some decisive moment. So it's like you're dipping your toe into it every once in a while. And again, these were still handheld shows which I felt very comfortable doing because that had really been all that I'd been doing. So the first A camera jobs were still handheld. Yeah. and then I did ABC had a a one a one season Muppet show called The Muppets. Which is just so cool that you worked on the Muppets. It was probably my second favorite show. That's gotta be after the office. Did you watch the Muppets when you were a kid? Of course. So that's what I that's my thing is just like the Muppets. Yeah. I was really I a big fan. Like I had I remember had like this Jim Henson book, you know, after he died and wow. You know, it's just kind of the the whole history of you know, from Sesame Street to everything. So I mean that was my generation growing up with the Muppets. So Randall Einhorn, DP director, producer on the office, this was his show. He was gonna do an office style Muppet show. Which is like basically a reboot. Of of the Muppets, I guess, because of that. Yeah, except now it really was like the documentary crew following Miss Piggy had a new late night talk show. wow, okay. It was a whole thing. that's so funny. you know, Kermit's producing, you know, you know how it is. That's great. I love it. And so it was super excited. And the the Muppeteers were super excited too because this was totally new for them. Yeah. They were so used to working working to the frame. You know, you set a frame, they know how high they can go, they you know before you see arm. And now we have two handheld cameras whipping around office style. wow. And so they don't have a frame to work to. So you know they they basically have monitors. Yeah. It's everything's up on four foot steel deck. they're down on on They're like laying on their backs. Or sitting on butt dollies. It was so funny. They used to be on these, you know, super old school Little wheelie stools and then they saw our butt dollies and they're like, That is genius. And they all got butt dollies. That's great. They all got butt dollies. Yeah. Like the little which is what's it called? They're there's a bunch of I know, but the ones with the anyway. It was the one we had on set on Thursday. yeah, I know what you're talking about with the steel pipes. I can't think of my name. Creeper, is that what it is? Yeah. Anyway, it doesn't matter. W with five or six wheels on it, so they can just scoot wherever they're So they were very excited about that. and yeah, it was it was really exciting. It was exciting because they are improvising, unlike the office. They really are, and just fully in their, you know, Muppet characters and it was so much fun. That's so great. so I did a camera on that, but that was because I'd worked with Randall as you know, he had d he had directed episodes I was DP on the office. So he already saw me in that role. Yeah. But it was funny. I'll tell one story. we did like a a little pilot presentation. for that. And I should go back a little bit. I was day playing on a show called Murder in the First. And just a little bit, but it was funny, I actually ended up getting that job. That very first show or the Bob Primes thing that I interned on way back when I kept in touch with those two camera assistants, Joel Schwartz and Chris Taylor. And I knew you know, I knew them for like twenty years and I never worked with them. And I ran into Joel against some half marathon or something and and I'm like, what are you up to? We ended up having coffee and he's like, I'm working on the show, you know, you should come in, whatever. So yeah, it's just so funny how you get a gig. But again, it it harkens back to Hey, Sarah's available, she's nice, you know, let's bring we like being around her. She's fun, you know, and and she knows what she's doing. So well Funny you say that. Because so here I'm on Murder the First. Doing some C camera and the B operator is Alan Cadillo. Mm-hmm. I mean Joel is not a camera assistant anymore, he's the A operator. but that's all good and fine. Alan's also DPing splinter units. Okay. And so my next day there, he's on a splinter unit and guess what? I'm his A operator. And guess what? They shoot everything on this little Small technocrane, everything. wow. And which you haven't really used much, but I've never used one. Ooh. Except at Cine Gear. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which doesn't quite but I've been practicing my wheels. Yeah. And so I'm like, here we go. You're talking about like the fifteen foot technocrane. Isn't there a shorter one? There might even be. But the the thing about the technocrane, for anybody who's who who doesn't know the technocrane is is i it's a telescoping crane. But the problem is is like the the fifteen footer or the fourteen footer or the thirteen footer, you know, they're different ones. What I've always found is first of all, it's not really fifteen feet 'cause the usable is like two feet less 'cause the end on either side. And because it's so small, people tend to sort of like like to swing it around, but the back pan is so massive because it it's just it's it's not really a technocrane and people think it is. It's really good at like poking straight in and pulling it straight back. But the D P owned it and it was they used it for everything. boy. So here we go. I'm on a camera and it's deeping. And I'm like, all right. And so we do this first something in a courtroom and we're just kind of doing it back and forth and it's it's going okay, it's not bad. And and then after that, the my dolly grip comes up to me. And again, this is such a small techno crane. Typically the the dolly grip is gonna be on the bucket, you know, swinging back and forth and on the pickle, extending and he comes up to me and he's like, I just want you to know. I've never done this before. great. That's fantastic. boy. So here we are in A camera and I'm like, Me neither. Don't tell anybody. That's hysterical. And then but it was pretty simple at first and then we got into something a little more complicated and I got confused and I meant to tilt up and I tilted down and ended up with some really awkward frame. And Alan comes up to me and I'm like, that don't really work and he's like, Well, I'll never forget this. He's like, Well, it didn't Totally suck. I mean, if it totally sucked, I would have come over and taken over. And the funny thing is, they called me again. They called me back again. And I was just like, what is going on? And I mean he's a friend, and you know, we've and I've told him this story, and I'm like, my god, I was so green, I'm so sorry. But the point of this, now I'm doing a camera on the Muppets, and we're doing our little pilot presentation. And the first part stums I can't remember now. Miss Piggy like dating some actor and we're doing this, you know, civil war recreation thing and we have a technocrane. And we're setting up this shot and Randall, who I only know from the office and Saul was in Philadelphia, comes up to me and he's like, Have you ever done this? And I'm like, Yes, I have I can actually tell you that'cause my hands are shaking. Yeah. I'm like, Yeah, I've done it. 'Cause he didn't know. And I was so glad that I had that opportunity as a day player to mess up. Absolutely. And how did it go? It went fine. good. We did. We we got it done. And so that that was and that's it. It's it was getting into those really scary, uncomfortable, way out of my comfort zone situations and just getting by and figuring out something and then the next one you go into it and you have just that little more confidence. That's the thing, and and learning from it and not doing it again. And and or if you have the ability, like you said, on the wheels, it's like, okay, I I messed up on the wheels. Like, you know what? I'm gonna go to a rental house and I'm gonna mess up with the wheels until I don't mess up. And I I would go to the SSC and w with a friend and we would take turns running around and standing up and sitting down and Yep. I mean I gotta call this is crazy. Rachel Morrison, who I know from way back when and she, you know, did reality and documentary too. She was doing she did Black Panther. We were all so proud and excited for her and wow what I cinematographer and now a director? Yeah. Yeah, now a director. And they were doing reshoots. And she called me. She's like, Hey, you wanna come do Black Panther? Black Panther. Black Panther reshoots in Atlanta for two weeks. And I'm like, Yep. Guess what I did? I went to the SOC and I practiced No, actually I think they were doing like a a workshop. A workshop and I went And I'm and I was talking to somebody on practice and I'm like, Yeah, I'm I'm I'm going to Black Panther reshoots. I I wanna make sure I know how to do this. That's great though. That's great. What's that that's exactly what I know, it's so funny. I mean a lot of that was handheld and again in my comfort zone. But you know, there were But you never know what they're gonna throw at you, right? And and and it's all about it's not about I can handle what they're gonna throw at me, it's it's I need to be able to handle the things that could be thrown at me. Yeah, exactly. Even if you know they're not gonna do it just for your own mentality, right? So you can go in there and go, I can do whatever you're in control. And it's funny, like at that time I just felt like more and more of these opportunities like were showing up and I was so glad that I had, you know, all the previous experience to bring to the bigger jobs. Like I ended up doing a little splinter unit on Fast and Furious seven. And again, it was like I mean, that's kind of a funny story how that all came to to happen. But you know, again, just showing up in Atlanta. I don't know anybody here. I mean I knew one person, which I'll tell you about. But it was you know, it's having the confidence to go into those really intimidating big budget movies. And it was kind of funny though, when I was I was setting up my first shot, if you've seen the movie it's like there's this scene of this I don't know what kind of car, but breaking out of a a safe and go driving around this high rise somewhere in the Middle East and busting through a window and and I'm setting up my first shot and I'm like low to the ground, I'm on the ground, you know, whatever, doing this. And I think he was like, he might have even been this the splinter unit key grip. And he comes up and he's like, finally I'm sick of all these hairy-legged, you know, dude camera assistants around here. And I'm like, yeah. I'm like, actually I'm the operator. Yeah. I appreciate He's like, sorry. Wow. So i it was it was a little intimidating at times. Yeah. But but di but looking back, did you find that there was a reason to be intimidated or it was all in your head? for sure. No, I mean but in other words, w like did you did you have the did you have the ability to do what they asked you? I had the ability to do what they asked, but I didn't know I had the ability. But that's what I'm saying. So it's meant You during playback. Camera three, good, and mine's coming up. Camera four, okay, good. Like I I would I I blended in. Your diary. I fooled them again. No, but yeah, it was you know, there's you don't know until you do it. Yeah. And you don't and sometimes you you g you you're showing up to a shot and you don't know you can actually do it and and you just hope that it's gonna work out. But don't you find that that that Happens again and again and again. I mean, I don't know about you, but I still get I'm still nervous on the first day of a job. of course. Yeah. But you know, I just keep pushing myself and getting into more challenging situations and it seems to be. And the more times you don't screw up, you're like, my chances are getting better. I'm still gonna screw up occasionally, but my chances are getting better. So in telling me about your career, it seems like You've had a lot of situations where like you've fallen in with these groups of people as you've moved up to different levels where they've totally supported you and been there for you and and which is what everybody wants. But have you had any situations where it hasn't worked that well? Of course. I mean you spend more time on set with the crew than you do with your family. And you wanna be surrounded by people that you like because I mean, what's the point of being miserable at work? But every once in a while you come across somebody and for whatever reason you just don't see eye to eye or there's some personality conflict or or they're having a bad day or a bad year or what. So I was on a show, it was, you know, one of the first shows that I it was one of the first shows that wasn't just a handheld kind of run and gun thing. Yeah. So I I still had a lot to learn, but I also felt like I've been doing this for ten years. I've been TPing features. I know I I know some stuff. I don't know exactly how it works in this level, but I'm ready to learn and ready to be open. And I found I had a a f focus puller who was very condescending and I don't think really felt like I had d I deserved to be there. Really? I don't know. He might I I don't know if he wanted to be a camera operator and it never worked out. He was older than me, he was But not supportive. He was yeah. I mean I don't know if it was you know, he was maybe old school. Eastern European. Maybe didn't like having no younger woman telling him giving him direction. I remember one time we're setting up a shot and it's a reality. And I you know, I mean as I love to work as a collaboration with camera operator, dolly grip, camera assistant. You are the three of you, you're telling one story. Yeah. You want to figure out how to tell that story effectively. And for each of you to go, I know how to make it better, I know how to make it better. And also to figure out which what part do does your your part Cutting that out. like how how to work as a unit without having to, you know, you can't communicate in the middle of the shot, but you can discuss before. So I said to him, why don't we rack focus to this person on, you know, this line because that's where I feel like the audience wants to, you know, whatever. Yeah. And then he turned to me and he's like, You take care of the frame, I'll take care of the focus. And I just I sucked it up. And is this like early on in your relationship? And I and But it didn't change. And it stayed like that, and I didn't feel like I could tell talk to anybody. And all that. Wait, but let me back you up a second. So in that moment, how did you handle that? Did you just walk around? I know I said I said, let's just try one. You know, I said, can we we'll we'll do one your way, let's try one my way. And you know, I I wanted him still to feel a valued Yeah. You know, I mean I'm not Disregarding his opinion, but at the same time, I'm the camera operator and I do want to try this. But that's the reason that I asked, because that's a weird that's a weird sort of a gauntlet moment, right? Because the thing is it suddenly becomes less about the shot we're gonna get, as opposed to if I completely just let you do what you want without also looking at what I want, then it then you are in control of this this situation. It's not about control, but The camera operator has to be you know, going, No, this is what the director has asked and this is what we need to do, you know, in certain situations. So But it's like it's like how do you how do you make somebody respect you when they don't respect you? Yeah. It's a it's a tricky situation. And so as you know, a newer operator, I just kind of suffered in silence and got through the season and it was weird. It wasn't till the last day I'd become good friends with one of our stand ins and she Saw one of our interactions and she came up to me after and she's like, I can't believe you let him talk to you like that. So this continued this just continued on. And and did you feel like you didn't want to make waves? I didn't want to make waves. It was a new DP I was working with. I was just keeping silent. So when she came up to me and said, I can't believe you let him talk to you like that, all of a sudden it was like something had been, you know, like the the some like something had been revealed, and I was like, my god, it's like s I mean, it's like being in some like abusive relationship where you just become become. And now I'm like, man, this is horrible. So again, I the show was over, I didn't say anything. But the the D P called me for the next show and I said, I'd like to do it, but I don't want to work with this camera assistant. And he's like, why not? Because everybody loved him and he was he's an excellent he was an excellent focus puller. And I told him what happened. And he's like, I had no idea I wish he had told me. And I said, Well, I mean, I don't know. I don't know if we can work together again. He had a phone call with his camera assistant. He the he called me. He was probably, you know, scared he was gonna lose his job. The camera assistant called The camera assistant, you know, he was probably freaked out he was gonna lose his job. He's like, I'm sorry, it won't be the same way. You know, like and I have no idea what the DP said to him. Yeah. But I've never seen Such remarkable 180. That's great. It was a complete it was a completely different person. Do you think that he didn't realize what he was doing? Or you think that I think he didn't know who I was or why I was there and maybe by the deep he vouching for me and maybe he said some good things about me. Yeah. We and it was fine. Wow. I know. And I've also had situations where I've had you know, issue with somebody and I've brought it up 'cause I'm like, well, it worked there. Yeah. And it doesn't work. And it's just somebody is in a bad place and they're and you can't win with them. I I had very early on in my career, I mean, I y I I sort of stumbled into A camera operating and big things ver T V A wise anyway, very early. So I was very young. And I ran into Dolly groups specifically who were like, Why am I pushing around this kid? And I was always very aware of that and I was always very concerned about it. And there was one show which was a pretty big show where I couldn't bring someone because the key group, I've already got a guy and he'd given him the job and I'm like, Okay, fine, whatever. And got in there. And from the f day one, this guy did not want to work with me. He didn't want to listen to me. He didn't want to be a collaborator. He didn't even want to go, I want to do it this way. He just wanted to do it a way that was different than what what I was talking about. And and it lasted for about a week and I tried to talk to him and I and Finally I called he and the key group together and I remember being actually really kind of scared about this. Not scared of what was gonna happen, but just that I had to like sort of bring it to this point. And I just said, Look, here's the thing. You and I are not working well together. I've really tried with you. I don't know what else to do, and I'm open to suggestions, but if this continues, I'm gonna go to the director of photography and explain that I'm gonna have to leave the show. And he's gonna say why and I'm gonna say, Because I can't work with the Dolly Group and I don't want you to fire the Dolly Group because I don't wanna cost someone their job. And I said, But Who do you think they're gonna get rid of? And it was sort of a like backwards in all fairness, looking back, like I didn't want to take responsibility for what I was taking responsibility for. But I just said to him, like, either this has to work or not. And the key group, thankfully, came to me afterwards and he said, I'm gonna replace them on Monday. I've been watching and and it's not you, it's him. And and I said, I feel horrible. And he said, You shouldn't it's I I've had the same situation. And it's like I want to cost someone their job, you know. And I felt so bad. And he was an older guy who had a family and I This young kid who didn't have a family and I'm like, but but it's not your fault. You know, you're you're I know. I just I like just be cool with each other, communicate, be nice, be respectful. Like it's I mean we have to see each other twelve hours a day, you know. It's like But I think and you alluded to it and I mean I mentioned it when I was doing it. I think also if you're coming in as a younger younger operator, like you also have to be aware that there could be a reaction to that. And and and Show them that you have the respect for the years. And by the way, use that and go, hey, you've done this nine times nine years more than I have. What do you think of this? Would this work? And I mean working with a great dolly grip is th is just a dream. But I have to I'll just on winning time, you know, I had the sincere pleasure of working with Dan Pershing, who if you I don't know if you I know him. He's passing. He is a filmmaker. His name's around. He is he has a he's a Dolly Grip who thinks like a filmmaker. And so he's always he's always thinking about, you know, some some way to improve the shot. So great. And not even our shot, but like how the scene is coming together or a blocking thing. He's you know, and he'll he's very subtle, but he'll kind of mention things, you know, in a in a very humble, nice way. And I'm like A great idea. And like sometimes, you know, he'll say that and I'll go up to the director and be like, hey, what if we do this? You know, and they are you know, it's like, but like he's and I mean not only is he a great, you know, thoughtful filmmaker, but he's a master at his craft. So he makes my job easy. But when you have someone like that, you know, it's just it's hard to mess things up. Yeah. Well, it is that thing where you have a great dolly grip. There are times where I'm like, Wow, I'm really good and then you're like, No, I'm really just hanging on here and this person is doing all this amazing work. But but that's what it's supposed to be is that you're both doing it top notch work and you're working off of each other. And, you know, I interviewed Guy B here and he he reminded me of or actually told me about it, I didn't know it, but it makes sense. Chris Chulak, who was the show runner on ER and has done a number of other things, has this saying that the star of the show is the show. It's not about the operators, not about the Dolly Group, it's not about the first AC. It's the story. And and if whoever comes up with a better way to tell that story, that's that's the way to go. It's not about ego, it's about, you know, making the show better. So you mentioned winning time. Was it just a blast to be working with like 'cause it's like what was it, like sixteen and thirty five in video and high and there were so many different formats and also it was funny when I got a call from the D P Todd Van Hazel about the show originally I'm not a big sports person, but I did grow up in LA in the eighties and the one team I follow I followed the Lakers in the eighties and the best colors, right? I mean I was I was a big fan. I mean it didn't last, but at that period I was. So I was excited to help recreate that that story. Also it's such a cool period piece. I mean that one thing about that show, and it's partially because of how it's shot, is like it feels like you're watching it back in the eighties with that bad video and But no, it was really fun. I'm never done a a six month show on on thirty five and you know the other operators, we were all collectively nominated for Operator of the Year. I mean everybody just brought so much to the table. So that was it was definitely an exciting. But but it's by design. yeah, for sure. Okay. It was primarily thirty-five, but then Justin Cameron was on the on the Ikigami video, you know, doing kind of the the period video and then he was also on all the Super 8 doing all the so you shoot those other things like simultaneously while you're quote unquote shooting the show as well. Yeah then Dominic Bartoloni and I were doing the thirty-five, but then sometimes we one of us would jump on sixteen, you know, depending on like sixteen was kind of the more documentary. And did you sort of like like when you went to the sixteen and when they were on the video, did you sort of like did the adjust headroom and stuff to sort of feel more like that that that time period? Like did you change the way you shot a little bit? I don't think so. No, I th I don't think that was that wasn't really a discussion. But it was it was interesting. you know, at the beginning Todd gave us extremely detailed kind of look book of of what he was going for and a whole list of movies to, you know, clips to watch and just So we could all have that shorthand of like, this is gonna be like that scene from such and such and and and it's you know, it's it's I always love it when a a a DP has a strong visual style and then wants to communicate that ahead of time. Yeah. So you know what you're all looking for. Yeah. And that must have been great because for you, because you've got the sort of quote unquote studio stuff that you're shooting, but then you have all that stuff that probably harkens back to your your reality stuff. yeah, and my favorite time were when I just got the the sixty millimeter camera and just got to be in the mix and And just finding stuff and on the Zoom lens. And no, it was super that was really fun. That's great. You you mentioned the SOC before. Can you tell me about the SOC and what that's involvement with them and w what your thoughts are? Yeah, I mean, I didn't really get involved with the SOC until the pandemic and the lockdown. I mean, I've I've been a member. Yeah. Actually, I joined I don't even know how long ago. Fifteen years. I really I have no idea. But I was definitely interested in joining and I knew the president at the time when I joined was Dan Nees. Okay. Legendary steady cam operator. And I had met Dan on my first PA job on Lost Highway. No, because he's he's like Mr. David Lynch. He was the steady cam operator and we stayed in touch all those years. Such a lovely, lovely person. And and yeah, it's such a such a shame he passed away what, five years ago, six years ago. I don't know. But I was I was interested in the SOC. I was mostly doing reality at the time and I and again we we both lived in Venice, we were friends, and I said, you know, I'm interested in joining this organization. And he f he he actually met I was met with a little bit of resistance because I was primarily a reality reality operator. yeah. There probably weren't a lot of reality operators back then. No there are, but and I and I said, Well, I mean I'm working I'm you know, I'm I have a career, I'm making money, this is what I do. I'm a camera operator and I work in reality. And he's like, Would you be interested in an associate membership? I'm like, no. Good for you. I've been I'm an operator for 10 years. Or whatever it was. And so he he did sponsor me and I and I joined. But I I wasn't that involved until the pandemic and really Mitch Dubin got me pretty involved. I had met Mitch through other S before the pandemic through other soc events and actually did I did a movie with him called Lucy in the Sky. It was his B operator. cool. and you know he I joined the education committee and we were just doing seminars and mentorships and Jeff Haley you know created this mentorship program which I was participating in. So You know, I think it's such a valuable resource and I'm I'm now on the board of governors and I just especially for up and coming oper operators to to get those connections and get the resources and the workshops and yeah. Yeah, I think I I w I I don't disagree. And you can join I don't even know, associate membership is like fifty bucks a year. It's not like I don't I don't remember. But but 'cause you you have to have had I think it's five years of operating. Five years five years consecutive operating to become a a full fledged member. But you still get access to all those people and you can call up you can call up Mitch Dubin, who's Spielberg's operator, and say, hey, can I ask you about this, you know, how to do this or whatever. And most people are extremely supportive in my career. And I know you know on some of these bigger projects, I know I've had opportunities because I am a woman operator. I wanted to ask you about that. Yeah and and How does make you does does that bother you? Does that does that weigh on you? Does that it you know, of course you wanna be o you wanna be hired for your skill as an operator, not as a woman operator. Sure. But at the same time, I f I feel like a lot of people are making more of an effort to level the play playing field, give opportunities, and if there's gonna be a woman on B camera, it might as well be me. Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean but you know I had a an opportunity to do Captain Marvel on B camera. Okay. And that was definitely my my biggest feature. you did the whole movie? I did the whole movie. That's great. Jeff Haley was on A camera. I knew Jeff it was kind of funny. Jeff was Childhood best friends with our sound our boom operator on the office. Okay. All right. So I knew Jeff from way back when. Yeah. We brought him in, you know, a couple of times to do it's funny. To the office? Yeah, because Jeff is, you know, the gay list, whatever. But you know, we brought him in a couple of times on to do C camera. Just, you know, we had time, whatever. Yeah. And Brian, our our boom op and Jeff and I so Jeff was doing these So random. He was directing these UCLA health. I this is a long time ago, twelve, thirteen years, fourteen years. He was directing these UCLA health some some kind of video. So he directed out odd o odd. Like public service items or something. I don't have some in-house. I don't even know what we're doing. Jeff Haley is one of the most bizarrely interesting people. He has so many different things. Well this was a long time ago. But Brian would boom, he would direct, and I was operating. So we did those for a while and then, you know, he again he's he's created this mentorship program. He's extremely supportive. yeah. anybody can reach out to him and ask him. absolutely. But he he definitely gave me my first opportunities as you know, on some big features. So he was the one that invited me to come and do the Splinter unit on Fast and Furious. I was wondering Fast and Furious because he's done like one through fifteen or whatever. He's done a bunch of them. I ended up working on So that one that was starred as just the splinter unit. But then when Paul Walker passed away they you know, they shut down and when they start up again, it was it was a very unusual situation. His brother was filling in for him. wow. To finish the movie and they needed a lot of camera operators. Uhhuh. Because they were basically digitally replacing Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So interesting. I ended up doing I we had like an A, B, C, D and an XYZ camera. I think I was doing D or C camera for some of that. And so I ended up doing six weeks on that. okay. so kind of my first, you know, big feature and then and then I ended up doing he asked me to do a couple weeks on Avengers which again was you know th the biggest I mean, you can't get much bigger. No. And then I I was kind of in this little Marvel period where and then I did the Rachel Morrison Black Panther. So when so he he got Captain Marvel to do he was booked to do A camera and he pitched to the directors, you know, I know a a a woman operator and I you know, I think it was a as a directing team man and woman doing Captain Marvel and I think they they thought and it's again a protagonist is woman and they they thought it was a cool idea of a woman on B camera. So I you know, I remember saying to Jeff, I'm like, you know, there's a lot there's a lot of people in this town that have huge feature experience and I've just done a handful. You know, are you sure you want me to do this? That's that's fair of you. I mean that's cool. I know. I I just wanted to make sure it was the right choice because again, this was out of my comfort zone, you know? Yep. And he's like, I think you'd be great for the job. That's great. And I'm sure you did great. Was it a good good experience? It was a good experience. It was a great experience. And he and you know, we're talking about learning on the job and Doing shots that you've never done before and hopefully as a day player and you know, not a lot writing on it. But Jeff was throwing me in in the mix. I'm sure. And he was having me do A shots on big on huge cranes. That's great. And I'm like, okay, are you sure? You know, and like we did this one motion control thing that my camera happened to be on the rig and but you know, w it it was motion control, but I've still I still had to operate I don't remember exactly the details. And I'm the V operator, V cameras on this rig. That's it's an A op it's definitely an A shot. Yeah. And it was the last shot of the night and it was a big stunt. And Jeff's like, All right, you good? You're going home. I'm going. And you're sitting there going, Wait, no, no, don't yeah. Yeah. And I got really lucky. We got it in one. I don't think it's We got it in one and every called rap and But I mean I'm so like it was he take he took a huge chance on me, you know. Sure, but every I I I and I'm not belittling it but but I think everybody does that at some point. Everybody has to have a have a shot at some point. And and the thing is, from your point of view he took a huge chance on you. I I know knowing Jeff that he didn't think he was taking a huge chance on you, you just hadn't had the chance to to to show that you can accomplish this yet. Like he wouldn't have brought you on if you thought you were gonna fail. No, that's I know he's smarter than the Yes. And y also, by the way, it would be unfair to you. I mean that's that's another thing that I I know like, you know, I've tried to to bring people up and it it's like you don't want to bring someone up faster than they should be because that can be hugely detrimental on a lot of levels mentally in every other way. Aaron But I think about, you know, being on that technocrane on Captain Marvel and I just think about that first time and I think of Alan Alan Codillo's words. Yeah. It didn't completely totally suck. I'm like, I'm so grateful for that mess up all those years ago. Because if I hadn't had that mess up, I wouldn't be here right now. Yeah. So it's just, you know, learning from all those little mistakes along the way. Look, the the the first job I ever got fired off of was my first A camera job on a on a T V show and I lasted less than a week and I got fired because I did not know what I was doing. Mm-hmm. And after being very depressed for a couple of days and eating a lot of like food I probably shouldn't have eaten and drinking too much, I just decided I was gonna go on every show I could on B camera and soak soak up everything I could. And the next job that I got called for as an A camera operator was was ER. Mm-hmm. And it was a while later, but I would not have been ready for that if I hadn't gotten fired off of that first one. So I think it's it's not about It's not about falling down 'cause everybody does. It's about how you get back up and what you take from it, right? So Yeah. And I mean I'll never stop learning. Yeah. And I love I mean, I love doing A camera 'cause you're you know, just really in the mix and super creative. But I love doing B camera because it gives you the opportunities to learn from Sure. More experienced A operators. And also B camera, you're finding you're you're given the a lot of times you're given the the freedom to kind of find your own Cool shots and pitch them and you know, bring something that maybe the D P didn't even think about. Absolutely. And are you as a B camera operator usually standing off on the side sort of looking for those opportunities to pitch? I mean I I really don't like to sit around and do nothing. Like that is my my when I get onto set, that's my one objective, not to like so if you know, a lot of times D P'll say, it's one camera, you know, and if I'm doing B camera, the the idea is that I go off and Do something else. But I'll watch the rehearsal and I'll watch where the camera is and I'll see where the actors are and I'll s and a lot of t more times than not, you'll see an angle that is lit nicely and will not get in the way of anybody else. And I'll go up to the D P and say, Hey, you know, I during that rehearsal I I notice there's an an opportunity for a shot here. A lot of times they'll be like, Nope, I just want to do one. A lot of times they'll be like, Yeah, show me. And I'll set it up and then they'll say, Yep, let's do it or No, I don't need it. But at least we're, you know, staying involved and attentive and and you know what? If they can save a setup for something that I just tossed out there, why not? Sure. So And do you go over with like the Artemis and snap a picture and show it to them kind of thing? So they don't have to For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's that's invaluable. And it and the weird thing about that is as a new as a new operator, I remember it was always like You want to pitch, but you don't want to pitch too much because you don't want you don't want to be like the bird on their shoulder going I can do something, I can do something. I know. There's definitely a fine line and I know when no you know, I know when they really want to do one camera. But yeah, I mean a lot of times I will have just that that shot on Artemis and be like, I could get this if you want it. If this is if this works for you, does this have value? All those all those areas. But again, it's you know, on a set there's a lot of stresses going on, there's a lot of personalities, a lot of politics, and you really have to find that that right time to talk to people and the right time to pitch something and when to just disappear. So absolutely no that that's valid. And you can only learn that from experience and and just watching how other people work. So and watching people fail. That's the best way to learn. Yeah exactly. Or failing yourself. Well this has been really great. I really appreciate this. I'm gonna leave you with the thing that I leave everybody with, which is someone starting out in the business, someone moving up to operator, maybe moving from B to A. or or you talking to yourself ten, fifteen years ago. what advice do you have for for for succeeding in this business? My advice for newer operators, I mean a couple of things and I think I touched on them. Just you never know what what camera assistant y today is gonna be your boss, your DP in a month. Treat everybody with the same respect that you'd want to be treated with. These are the people you see ten, twelve, fourteen hours a day, five days a week. Just be cool with each other. Be nice. And the other thing is, take care of yourself. You know, when you're get a get enough sleep, hydrate. Watch how you you're when you're crammed into a quarter and you're in the most uncomfortable position, think about how your body's gonna feel in an hour when you have to do some crazy handheld shot. You know, you have to think about body mechanics and and strength training and and all the things to keep yourself healthy for a long career. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op dot IO for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.