Dave C: On today's episode, we'll talk about being inspired by Carlito's way, working with Ari Aster and Tim Burton, Midsummer, Werewolf, and of course, getting a big hug goodbye from Tom Cruise. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website theop.io is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Block it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Victor 30 Echo Tech Team. Hey Mark. Camera set. Hello and welcome back to the Out Podcast, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I'm Dave Kamitis, your host, and ⁓ very excited today to have a really wonderful operator ⁓ who's done some amazing work. ⁓ Fabrizio Shara. He's coming to us from Reading, England. And ⁓ Fabrizio has been around for a while. I've known his work for a while. We actually just recently met and and I'm so excited to talk to him. ⁓ couple of his ⁓ credits, but there are a lot. Mission Impossible's seven and eight, which I didn't even realize there were that many at this point. Dungeons and Dragons, Werewolf, Wednesday, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Midsummer, Krypton Emerald City. ⁓ he was nominated for the BSC ⁓ operators award in 2023 for Wednesday. ⁓ and has just done some incredible work with some really interesting filmmakers. ⁓ and ⁓ just very glad to have him on the on the show. Thanks for being here. ⁓ thank you for having me here. Thank you very much, David. Pleasure to see you. Yeah, absolutely. So tell me ⁓ how what's your story? How'd you get into the film industry? Right. ⁓ My story is ⁓ a very odd one. I I I I can ⁓ proudly say I jumped into the window to come into the industry. ⁓ I started ⁓ long ago. when I left Italy, being Italian, ⁓ I left I was around twenty-three and I left Italy as a scuba diver instructor, ⁓ basically to travel the world and have fun. And so I did for a few years. and then I started taking pictures on the water. And ⁓ that led to doing videos underwater, and that led to film underwater with film cameras. So ⁓ yes, wow, and and one day I I found myself doing what I was passionate about, which was coopering and ⁓ and wildlife, and and while doing that to the my other passion, which was filming. So I've been double lucky in that. ⁓ and so I've done it for a few years, and ⁓ One thing after another, one day I was re-watching a film that I love and watching it with different eyes. Don't ask me how and why, I don't know, is one of those things in life. And ⁓ watching the film I fell in love with a shot and the film is ⁓ Carlitos Way and the shot is Larry McConkey's amazing, incredible shot in ⁓ Central Station. And at that point I was jaw dropped. looking at the screen and I I I just stopped breathing and I th I told myself, okay, this is something I have to look into. This is what I want to do. I d I didn't even know what it was. It just I I I need to go into this and I need to go and study because ⁓ my god, you know I I was ⁓ basically yes completely you know burned inside and just ⁓ my lord this is something new I I need to look into. And and so basically I did and I started looking into Stadicum and the word of Stadicum, start reading everything that was around available, and as you well remember, at the time was all through ⁓ you know the Stadicum Forum and ⁓ Yeah, when was this? What what year is this? This was beginning of two thousand, probably around two thousand and two, two thousand and three. Okay. And ⁓ so ⁓ I at the time I was ⁓ based and living in the Middle East in Egypt ⁓ because of my underwater filming. So I was living on the Red Sea and being very busy doing underwater filming. And I decided to take my very first ⁓ stadicum workshop because looking around I thought you know that's the way to do it and ⁓ asked everyone possible ⁓ in the industry and ⁓ everyone said well you have to start somewhere you know and take your first workshop and so I did so I traveled to the UK Funnily enough, ⁓ where I later on moved without knowing, and traveled to Manchester, England, and ⁓ and did my very first ⁓ Stadicom workshop. And fell in love even more with with Stadicum, you know, found it incredibly hard. So day one, of course, loads of questions were in my head, like, what the hell am I doing? ⁓ this thing is heavy, the pain is unbearable, it's it's incredible. But at the same time, I was so hyped, you know. I am doing it. You know, it I I this is the very start. It doesn't matter how much I have to suffer. I wanna do this. ⁓ was that a w was that a week long class or or in a who talk? Well it was it was a full ⁓ full on ⁓ steady gum course. I think at the time was the only thing that was available. There wasn't any ⁓ yeah, any taste there around, you know, you had to go fully committed and ⁓ And and and that was the package, you know. So I tried remember who taught it? Who who the instructors yes, absolutely. ⁓ Howard Smith, which at the time was very busy. at the time was owning MKV and and so I'd done the course with them and came back home. ⁓ you know, left a slice of heart in in the stadicum in the stadicum room and ⁓ immediately bought ⁓ a very light ⁓ studicum system, ⁓ I think a flyer was ⁓ to start practicing. And yeah I think I practice, I don't want to overthink, but probably thousands of hours. I'm no kidding. We all did, right? That's that's you just wanted to figure it out. Yeah. Yes. We I I think at the time we all did. You know, it wasn't a time where the vault or any other aid was around, you know, and I and I really wanted to master it because Do you do you remember do you remember well first of all, let me let me back up for a second. ⁓ and I should mention, by the way, ⁓ on the website, and I'll put a link to this on your page, ⁓ there's a breakdown that Larry McConkie did of that shot in Colito's Way. Have you seen that? I did. I I because he has the video tap, it's it's incredible. ⁓ so I'll I'll put that on there. And that's a that's amazing. So but but did you have before before sort of going, this is what I want to do, you said you were doing underwater stuff, but this wasn't professional stuff with like professional film cameras and stuff like that, was it? It it was it was, it was, it was. I ended up I ended up shooting films ⁓ underwater, you know. And ⁓ yeah, yeah. I I I ended up ⁓ at the end towards the end of my underwater career, I ended up having a film camera, proper film camera. ⁓ okay. I didn't realize that. So w Yeah. Are you shooting di Are you shooting documentaries then or what were you shooting? I was I was doing documentaries and I was doing films ⁓ in the Middle East. this ⁓ at the time, at least when I was based there, the industry was quite busy, you know. And in Cairo there were a lot of ⁓ films produced for the whole Middle East. So I ended up ⁓ shooting ⁓ films underwater. ⁓ wow. I yeah, I I s then ⁓ quickly got bored out of it because I realized that instead of shooting ⁓ incredible wildlife ⁓ you know in documentaries films ended up mostly in a tank filming the classic that bodies ⁓ falls into the water and you're looking up backlit, you know. And like ⁓ okay that was exciting but yeah moving on. You know and done that before. Yeah exactly that so I ticked many boxes and at that point I was missing what I was doing with wildlife because You know, I'm I'm a bit of a shark freak. So I spent many years filming sharks. It was very, very exciting and ⁓ and incredible. I I'm I'm very lucky. ⁓ if I look back at what I've done, I've been I've been so lucky to take all the boxes that I wanted to. And ⁓ and that made me they gave me the motivation to move into Staticum and and on land filming because I've done so much that I've I never look back and think, ⁓ my god, you know, I c I could have done that. I'm missing it, you know, and i it no. It just I I I'm fulfilled, you know. You did that and you're moving on. So had you had you seen had had you seen a steady cam before this? Like did you know what it was? I knew nothing about it, Dave. I knew zero and yes, it I come I dunno, I I can't explain it. I just fell in love and I I I knew straight away is what I wanted to do. Don't don't ask me how. I I still can't explain it. That's how I'm Do you remember though the first do you remember the first time you put it on? Like what ⁓ I mean, 'cause you you said it so well. It's like the first time you put it on, it's like, why does this hurt? And I can't stand straight and it's and it's running away from me, and they're telling me not to hold it, but I have to hold it because you know, there's all the it none of it makes sense, right? Do you remember do you remember what it was that made you go, I want I need to do this? Was there something specific that you can or just the the I fell in love with ⁓ The aesthetic of it. my entire life is driven by aesthetic. ⁓ I'm wired this way, you know. I can barely do two plus two, but I'm glad the kind kind of cane aesthetic. so being anything, being art, being ⁓ cars, ⁓ being ⁓ human beings' faces to to to portray, you know, it it's the way I'm wired. ⁓ and and the aesthetic and the language of stadicum ⁓ in in specifically the specifically that film you know that sin the rhythm and everything ⁓ it was to me was poetry you know and yeah and I thought ⁓ my god if if this is possible I want to do it you know ⁓ yeah never never came close to to Larry's skills of course ⁓ Larry's on a different level. And and and also i I've said this before, in in fairness, there's Larry, which is its own he's his own thing. And then there's Larry being able to work on a movie with someone like Brian De Palma who who can you know, I mean you need all those pieces, right? You could be you could be Larry on some movie with no no vision and you're not you're not making stuff like that. But that's just so so very well said, Dave. I a as you well know, you know, they did the mechanical skill of moving aestheticum and a camera in three dimensions is it falls apart and is nothing if there isn't a vision behind and and as we know is is teamwork, you know, is the direct the director vision, ⁓ director of photography, ⁓ you know, i to embrace the lighting for Stadicam, which is ⁓ as we know, extremely challenging, especially in set conditions, you know, and and and the actors taking on board the all the ⁓ caveats that goes with a steady cam shot with the complications of moving in three dimensions, you know, and and and and doing it in in a in a graceful way. So so you got a you got a flyer which ⁓ I mean can that fly a film camera? I forget the flyer. ⁓ was no video key no because ⁓ there's another story behind I I bought a flyer to train myself and I quickly learned how ⁓ tricky it was to learn to fly a light camera on a flyer because it requires an incredible ⁓ surgical touch with your hand on a gimbal. I call it my right hand because I'm goofy. ⁓ so I there learned the huge difference of you know f flying ⁓ a full system, and you know, and the difference ⁓ applied to flyer and That took literally hundreds of hours to to develop that skill. And then translated back into a full rig, which I owned, an MKV at the time. That was my one of my first rig, ⁓ carbon fiber rig, four stages. which looking backward wasn't right for me because I'm not that tall. ⁓ it would have suit you probably much better ⁓ had it seen you in person. ⁓ I'm five seven. so it four stages were was very long to me. And where I was based in the Middle East, ⁓ in the early two thousands, ⁓ the ⁓ digital revolution came quite late. So while you guys were flying what at the time was probably the red one, which was the first wow thing to fly, we didn't see yes, we didn't see any in in the Middle East. And my bread and butter daily camera was a five three five. ⁓ wow, which is a heavy film camera. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. I'll I'll tell you, I I'll t I'll say this. So I remember this from the red one. You didn't miss much because the thing that I remember about the red one was I the first time I had it, I was doing ⁓ I was doing a whip pan and I whipped and the camera shut down. And I went, What what happened? And the guy goes, ⁓ did you whip it? And he goes, Yeah, yeah, because I was I was just r rehearsing. And he goes, Yeah, you can't move it too quick or else the the connector ⁓ Yeah, one of those things back in the days. They it took them a while to figure it out. They did eventually. But anyway. ⁓ so I see. So it's so you had an you had a full size rig that you were using for film stuff anyway. And so did did you did you just contact all the people that you knew from underwater and say this is what I'm doing now? Or I mean were there other people who were doing study cam as well? ⁓ there was one very well established ⁓ guy in Egypt, ⁓ Egyptian of course, and ⁓ I was basically the other one. So I found myself ver yes, I found myself very lucky again. And I met incredible people, lovely DPs and ⁓ and I started from, you know, being known ⁓ in the underwater world, ⁓ then translated into Stadicum and ⁓ and I I I I I've been lucky because ⁓ let's say the culture in the Middle East is ⁓ vastly different from European American culture in terms of I would say details and precision. Which allowed me for a bit more room to wiggle at the at at the beginning of my career. ⁓ I didn't skip any step because I spend literally hundreds of hours in a flyer and and I had the flyer at home because I was based on the Red Sea, but all the films were made in Cairo. ⁓ so I I I I used to fly an hour to Cairo and that's where I kept my big rig. So without flying forth and back every time. So I was skipping the big rig in Cairo. And it's where I was doing the filming. So that's where the five three five used to go on too. So wait, you you what you said there was a difference there. I didn't understand that. What's what's the difference in how they work versus how how they work in So the the the the the culture is absolutely different. We we could spend hours and hours talking about it. But But how does that translate on a film set? It translates into chaos. Okay. Th there's no shortcut to that, Dave. ⁓ 'cause there's no chaos anywhere else, right? On any other film side, but it's the normal. Imagine yes, imagine the chaos that we are used to and multiply that to ten. And that give you mid gives you middle eastern chaos. ⁓ you know, it's i yes, it's a lot to digest. ⁓ imagine something else. I had to work in Arabic. ⁓ yeah. Yes, there was very little spoke. I I I did speak a little bit of Arabic because I spent it in total eleven years there. Okay. So I'm I I a little bit of Arabic, let's say ⁓ a five percent of the language without making it too big. but luckily film film language it's it's still film language. So even if it's in Arabic, once you know the numbers of lenses and and you they they they inherit few words from French language, you know. So ⁓ a after a while we we're all understanding each other anyway. You know, and and sometimes I ask for a word in English to understand things and you know, and and sometimes I get back in Arabic and and I was quite the novelty because ⁓ you know ⁓ an expat working there speaking a little bit of Arabic everyone was equal to you know sure yeah and it was amazing fun did did the chaos ⁓ did the chaos allow you to sort of like ⁓ get not it's not the right word but get away with things while you were learning a little more is that is that how I I I I like to think I like to think so more probably more just mentally it was just in my head you know, thinking I could get away with a bit more than than I would have wanted, you know. But ⁓ but i i it it al always worked well. Yeah. Well how l how long would you say it was after you started doing steady cam where you could you could go onto a set, they call you for a job and you you you you you didn't sweat Can I do this? ⁓ you know, I I I would say solid couple of years, ⁓ which is what I recommend. ⁓ I I I I used to run STEDICAM courses for the Guild of British Camera Technicians, the GBCT. ⁓ we used to do a course per year reserved to focus poolers and ⁓ and second ACs ⁓ and operators, of course, that wanted to take on board STEDICAM. So ⁓ a course, let's say reserved to the industry, you know. people already working in industry and very few. So a a good selection during the year and six or seven candidates only. And i i it's the first thing that they recommend on day one. Never, never skip steps and and don't look for shortcuts because sadly there aren't any. You if you wanna be good, you have to commit and and it's a long way and is the hardest thing. ⁓ that you can learn on set as we know as a camera operator, you know, is the hardest skill. ⁓ s so rewarding at the same time, incredibly rewarding, so fulfilling, so amazing, ⁓ but at the same time very hard. And, you know, pi people has very high expectations when you're hired. You know, it's a it's a privilege to be hired and to show on set. And that privilege at that point is on your shoulder when camera roll. You know, so That that's what I always like to keep in mind to myself as well. You know, never never show unprepared. Yeah. Were you showing up and just doing Steadicam or were you doing conventional camera as well at that point? At the at the time, ⁓ you you may remember SteadyCam ops were specialists, you know. That that's when I started. So I've seen a lot of morphing in our positions in the industry because as I said, when I started where the steady cam operator was coming with His own focus pooler, his own remote focus, his own ⁓ the remote wireless, you know, he's on everything. And we used to take ⁓ control of the set, we used to take the camera, and we used to have our own Staticam assistant. And and and at that point we were in the center of attention even more than nowadays. And and later on, as you remember, we it became something different. We went from there to ⁓ well. B camera operator should do steadicum, you know, and and should train for that. So that's when I started morphing into operating as well, to fill the role to to to stay to stay involved as much as I could in the process because it's what I like. and and then from B camera to A camera. So ⁓ I would call it some sort of a of a natural ⁓ growing. Yeah. And so how many how many years did you How many years is did it take you to get to the point where you were doing a camera on shows? ⁓ I started doing a camera on shows I think around 2015, something like that, 2016. Okay. So it's a good ⁓ a good 10, 12 years or so. And ⁓ yeah, and I do a camera or B camera or study camera, depend depending on what the show is, but ⁓ yeah. Sure. But until you were ready for it. Do you remember do you remember the first show you made the jump up to full time? Like you were the you were the A camera operator for the whole show? ⁓ that's a good question. no, I don't. Makes me feel old. sorry. I'd have to look back on AMDB. Yeah, no, well, the reason that I was gonna ask was just ⁓ you know, that's a big mental it's a big mental game, right? I mean, the interesting thing is, and I was talking to someone about this the other day who pointed this out. You know, when we when we were on when we would go in and just do steady cam, and it's funny you said something that I had forgotten was that we used to bring our own assistance. I had actually forgotten. Indeed, yes. That was such a long time ago. but ⁓ you know, even when you were just coming in and doing doing just a steady cam shot, or you're doing B camera and steady cam shot, we still got that taste when we went in to do steady cam of being the A camera operator. Because we we basically it was like, okay, what do you need from us? What do we have to do? Where do we have to go? And so you sort of ran it and then you get to like step back a little bit, right? And go, okay, now I can watch the circus again. So I was just wondering, was there a big was there a big mental shift ⁓ when you were sort of like, ⁓ now I'm the camera operator? Absolutely, as you described it, because we we've been a camera without having the label on it, because When when we used to show up on set and and get hold of the whole set, you know, and ⁓ and take the lead, ⁓ URA camera operating is the and and ninety-nine percent of time the stadicam was the only camera rolling on set when we were around. ⁓ very rarely was a B camera shooting B roll because we would have been, as always happens, in the way of everyone else and filling the frame of every other camera operator. So ⁓ we were by all means ⁓ doing encover in the role of a camera. And and and and as you know, yeah that feeling becomes addictive. You know, or at least that was to me, highly addictive. You know, you you you come off the hype of the adrenaline of a shot well executed and you and the the only thing that comes to my mind is I want more. You know so ⁓ so is this are you still living in Egypt at this point? Are you or have you moved to London or are you traveling around for stuff? I moved I moved in ⁓ London in ⁓ 2009. So I left in 2009, luckily, ⁓ unknowingly at the time, ⁓ just a year before the Middle East Revolution, which crumbled the ⁓ the film industry there. So yes. J just in time before that. ⁓ unknowingly, so I've been lucky again. and then moved into the UK, ⁓ which wasn't an easy move at all because I knew nobody. ⁓ I knew I knew literally nobody, so I had to restart all my contacts from scratch. ⁓ at that time I had I think something like 17 films, ⁓ full features, you know, ⁓ f feature films ⁓ on my CV, but Nobody cared, you know. I I I wasn't British and I I I was just again, ⁓ I I I was simply ⁓ c coming ⁓ in England without knowing anyone. So it took me I would say a good couple of years ⁓ to put my name around, you know, shake hands and ⁓ and try to to know as many people ⁓ as possible and ⁓ and and and try my luck, you know, and ⁓ and again a bit lucky and ⁓ perseverance. you know, pays off. ⁓ i it does indeed. So never stop dreaming. so you move to you move to England and it takes you a couple of years. And then how how do you I mean do you just spend that time trying to meet as many DPs and operators and whatever and slowly it starts to come in you get established? Or how do you how do you reinvent yourself like that? Yeah, more more or less like that. I was lucky enough when I was still in Egypt to ⁓ do a commercial for a lovely DP that I met there and was a British DP. ⁓ that ⁓ gave me the contact of ⁓ an agent. So I got in touch with the agent, he introduced me and ⁓ the agent took me on board. ⁓ so he helped me out ⁓ to you know to to meet people and you know between being produ producers, ⁓ directors, ⁓ director of photographies and and and and that's how I started and then one thing after another, ⁓ you know, here I am. And was ⁓ y you you mentioned how in Egypt it was chaos. Was ⁓ well I mean did it seem like compl the going to London and working out of those shows, did it seem completely calm and and ⁓ collected as a result? Yes. I I would say yes. That definitely yes. ⁓ a a big yes, a capital yes. Was it was there a learning curve between how how they ⁓ besides the chaos, but how they work in in Egypt versus how they work in England, or is it the same kind of setup? No no not really because I ⁓ Because when I was in Egypt, ⁓ I had the ⁓ chance to work with ⁓ many ⁓ foreign DPs, ⁓ especially on commercials, because locations ⁓ yeah, you know, e Egypt offer amazing locations, ⁓ so a lot of commercials were shot there, ⁓ being them underwater or steady come, you know. ⁓ so I I got to meet a lot of people and worked in many different ways. So not no not much of a shock, definitely no. e i that was a very ⁓ easy ⁓ tr transition I would say. Yeah, fantastic. So listen, I want to ask you s about some of the specific movies that you've worked on because you've ⁓ one of the things that I noticed in looking at you know I don't know if this is maybe they seek you out or not, but you know, you've done Midsummer with Ari Aster. You've done a couple of things with Tim Burton. You just did Werewolf with Robert Eggers. ⁓ without knowing is v the little that I know These all seem like directors who have very, very specific visions. ⁓ and I'm wondering, i is that something is it is it different working with people like that than than say working with, you know, some big action director who kind of is out there and let's grab this and let's grab that and let's grab that. And am I right about that, I should say. ⁓ yeah. Well, ⁓ y you just nailed it, Dave. ⁓ I I've I've been s so lucky. I I still can't believe ⁓ how ⁓ privileged I I've been to to work ⁓ with these directors, you know. ⁓ every time I look back, I I still have to pinch myself. ⁓ and so I did every single day on set when I've been with these directors because because it's a privilege, you know, and ⁓ and it's it's been an incredible i each and every experience has been incredible. And ⁓ and as you say, those those directors are so specific and so visionary that the the the most important thing you have to immediately try and wear the issues and and read their minds because that's where the film is. It borns in their minds and ninety nine percent of times it's a very specific vision and you have to your your your your responsibility is to put the vision into practice. You know, a and and and make it work the way this they see it. Talking specifically on Midsummer, and by the way, Midsummer, ⁓ the DP was Pavel what's his name? ⁓ Pavel, I I hope I'm gonna pronounce it well. May Pavel ⁓ forgive me. ⁓ pa is we're still friends. ⁓ Pavel Pogorozelski. That's I didn't even try. he he contacted me early on and sent me the script, and I remember reading the script and going. This is either going to be the best movie ever made or the worst movie ever made. I couldn't really tell. It was crazy. You're so much right, yes. Then when I saw that movie, so so my question is first of all, are all those I mean, that movie is so specifically shot. I mean, you know, there is such first of all, the work you did is in it is incredible, but ⁓ it's really on a different level because the operating is so specific to that story, to that movie. Was that was that all in Ari Astor's mind? Was was is that all him? ⁓ Ari Astor is ⁓ is a genius and there is no other way to see it. ⁓ and ⁓ I discover that he's a genius ⁓ only step by step while we were filming. the the hard part for me was that Ari and Pavel were ⁓ longtime friends. They've been to film school together. they shot their first film that was incredibly successful as a as a first film. And and then they were ready to shoot Midsummer, and I had an interview, ⁓ a Zoom interview, ⁓ with Pavel, and Pavel described the film ⁓ which sounded crazy to me, completely crazy. ⁓ and I thought I as you as you did, I thought, ⁓ my god, this is either incredible or or better not have the credit on. But i it was so so crazy that was exciting to to me, you know, it was challenging and ⁓ and and and he he been very, very honest. He said, Look, ⁓ I'm the DP on the film, ⁓ I'm crap at ⁓ operating camera and Ari wants a good operator, ⁓ that is somebody that is really good on wheels. And I fit the bill because ⁓ ninety nine point nine percent of my work is on wheels. ⁓ so I I Most of my work is on gearheads or or remote heads. ⁓ so there there was me in in Hungary on a sunny field ⁓ where we ended up shooting in July and August in 45 degrees. and and and the film and the film was crazy and ⁓ and everyone realized how crazy it was ⁓ day by day, you know, was such ⁓ such an empowering experience. ⁓ And and and the vision that Ari had was incredible because Ari had his film in his mind sitting there for 10 years. So the level of detail of detail that he had in his mind was absolutely astonishing. I can't describe it to anyone unless you watch the film form five times to start understanding how exactly. Everything had to happen at a certain time in a certain place in a frame. And n and he would not absolutely compromise with anything. ⁓ which bless him was, you know, the beauty of the film is the whole thing. Yes, and I still remember the first few days, ⁓ we we were shooting probably with 60, 70 extras that funny enough, they weren't extras. They were Swedish actors, proper Swedish actors, not actress. ⁓ wow. ⁓ because they wanted to keep it real as as a proper Midsummer, Swedish Midsummer. So I I and I learned it later on, you know, I learned it while on set. I've been told, no, no, those are real actors. And they were just standing there in the sun, you know. ⁓ my god. i everything, everything was out of ordinary from beginning to end, you know. And the first few days moving moving away from a shot where where we rehearse half a day and then we shoot a few takes and then moving on we're out of the scene. And and I was frightened and it's like Ari, are you are you sure we got this? You you happy with this Yeah yeah there's no coverage. That's us. You know the camera is ⁓ the camera is a witness and not even a witness is more the camera is is somebody there. It's the camera is the story. We are the story. We are we are in it. That's it, you know. We're never gonna cut away from that. So the pressure was immense. Well, good I I remember early on in that movie, I can't remember what the scene was, but there was one scene, I think it's in the apartment before they leave, where they're talking and the camera just very slowly and methodically starts to pan away from them and then almost becomes their POV. ⁓ and I remember thinking this is something very, very different and very, very special. Yeah. Yeah, ⁓ that was a shot that I I haven't shot, so I won't take the credit for it. That has been shot okay in student at a later stage, I think I think in Canada, I may be wrong. ⁓ I I don't know because I simply wasn't part of it. Sure, but you but you had established that style with him, obviously, because that's what the whole movie is like. I mean, you know, that's just where it fell in the movie. ⁓ one specific shot I have to ask you, which I assume maybe you didn't do because it was Did you do the helicopter shot that goes upside down as they're driving? Yes. that was a very tricky shot. Yeah, tell me about that. Because first of all, that shot when it when it happened, I I think I I think I gasped just because it was so ⁓ it it was such a piece of storytelling in such a simple way. It was fantastic. But tell me about that. ⁓ y you meaning you mean in the shot where they're traveling into the into the van and they're going into the into the city, into the village? Yeah, they're driving they're driving and it and it goes and it just basically turns and completely comes upside down and then they're still traveling in the same direction, but now the whole world has turned upside down. Yes. ⁓ it took me a while ⁓ to understand the shot. ⁓ I have to admit. When Ari was describing it, I was like, ⁓ okay. ⁓ how do we do this? yeah so Pavel did ⁓ a fair amount of research and ⁓ we basically hired a remote head that ⁓ was capable to do that and the only one available available ⁓ it was summer I think 2018 ⁓ that we were shooting in Hungary. ⁓ it was pretty busy summer. ⁓ there was ⁓ the there were many ⁓ remote heads available so the we ⁓ we hired one from abroad ⁓ I think from Germany or Austria, something like that. I I think Germany. and ⁓ we had it flying over and ⁓ we did some tests and funnily enough it's supposed to be a head ⁓ that was ⁓ the perfect head for that shot. Now for a laugh if you watch the shot back you will find a glitch. So the headway, you'll find a glitch. I don't know if I'll find a glitch. You'll find a glitch. What's the goal? It all happily ⁓ it happily happens ⁓ in a place where it's very hard to see. It's it happens in the sky because the software couldn't cope ⁓ with the switch, with the entire switch on both on on the three axis basically. There was a lot of handwork behind that, a lot of work on the wheels. And and while moving the tree axis and and the lens pointing straight up, there was a glitch in the software that basically give up for a fraction of a second. And and if you look ⁓ attentively at the at the clouds in the sky, you can see there's some sort of a glitch. But you really have to look into it, otherwise it looks like a good shit. Well now you you you've you've ruined the whole movie for me now. I don't even know if I can go back and watch it. You know what? We we said because it happened in the sky and and on a cloud, I said, Ari, we're safe here. W we can ⁓ classic, we we can fix it in post. ⁓ you know, that dust off the shoulder and say they they're gonna fix it in post because it's on a cloud, there's there's nothing that can't be fixed. It's it's one frame or two. And funny enough, they never touched it, they left it as it is because you otherwise you wouldn't know, as you say it you haven't noticed. ⁓ d does does he is he the type of person who he has Every single shot in his mind, then it's just you having to get it out, or is it you have an idea for it and then it evolves? No, he has everything in his mind. ⁓ he had very, very clear ideas and and and clear needs in in a in a shot, in a sin. ⁓ let's call it a sin more than a shot, because every shot was a sin. So he had true in his mind very, very detailed path. for everyone and everything to fall into the right place at the right time. And in it and that combined with performances, of course, it made it very challenging, you know? So it it so it seems to me, and I don't know another director I can I could put here, but it seems to me that that look, there there are certain directors that I've worked with. I've never worked with anybody quite like what you're talking about. And it sounds like there are not many people quite like what you're talking about. ⁓ But it seems like a lot of directors will come to us and go, you know, here's the shot and we're over here and this is the story and this and that. And then we kind of take it and and we improve on it. You know, we offer them suggestions. We, you know, that's that that's what a lot of our work obviously is. But it seems to me like in this situation, it's you're not trying to improve on anything, you're just trying to get all of the specific beats and and and trying to get exactly what he wants. ⁓ it it goes back to what we were saying before because ⁓ Ari and Pavel were very close friends and and and and Ari had this idea i in his mind for for ten years. He was a a a grown-up baby. And ⁓ I felt I was nobody to interfere with this vision, ⁓ which was a pristine and an immaculate vision. I felt at that point my role was to not interfere with his thoughts and and serve the and serve the film, serve the picture without upsetting any of the balance because would have been sacrilege in my mind, you know, the way I say it. ⁓ while some other times I I feel and always felt allowed to say what what I think because I I think I can improve something somewhere, you know, with Ari, ⁓ it was much more delicate environment to step onto. ⁓ because I needed to be trusted as as as an as a as a newcomer for him and and and need to be accepted in his own mind. So it it it was a delicate environment to step into. So I I tried to interfere the least amount possible, if you like. That's amazing. ⁓ because the there's ⁓ look every shot in that movie is designed and and and I I I mean that in the best possible way. But it's clear that someone had, and obviously that's what I was wondering, is I assumed it was from him, but I wasn't sure. ⁓ he obviously had the vision. And and and not only that, but because I'm sure you've done this before, you work with people who have vision, and then when they get to the location and put it the vision in place, it doesn't quite work. But for that movie, it just absolutely, it absolutely works. So did you do, did you do a lot of takes of of different things? Or you said you actually didn't do a lot of takes of of many shots or some shots. No, no not many. I don't know now, but it wasn't at the time our style to do many takes. ⁓ plus we had huge timing constrictions. We had a couple of months to shoot the film. And we were shooting, remember remember the title midsummer, we were shooting in Hungary in a field, July and August in forty five degrees. ⁓ it was extremely challenging. So yes, we had people fainting, ⁓ you know, we had it all. So it imagine for the whole of us, for the the whole cast, the whole crew was very, very hard. ⁓ and there was no escape. We were all under the sun, and it was a mission. We were all on the same field, under the same fierce hit, you know. So sure. And and ⁓ but I would imagine that that especially those longer still well those longer, there are a lot of longer shots in there. I I would imagine that with all the orchestration, you must have rehearsed it quite a bit before you rolled, yeah. Yes, ⁓ few definitely, ⁓ definitely few rehearsals. And ⁓ and now that we talk, I remember yes, I gave some suggestions on on very technical shots where we had to time ⁓ towards the end of the film the ballet that happens. ⁓ when everyone danced around Florence and we know there were a lot of head scratching to make it happen ⁓ in a ⁓ in in in a in a in a in an achievable way, put it this way, ⁓ with the time we were given. So that that there I put my expertise and and the technical side of it, you know, and when Ari was you know doubting how to do it, I was putting it on the table and ⁓ And was happily taken on board. But that was towards the end of the field. And at that point, he trusts me way more than when we met. It's an important role, as you know. ⁓ absolutely. And how how long, ⁓ how long do you think how long did it take into shooting for him to realize, like, you know, because I would well let me put it this way. I would imagine that someone like that, his biggest fear would with an operator, ⁓ who he obviously relies on heavily, would be twofold. One is can he do the job? That's just its own thing because it's a very technical thing. But two is am I gonna say ⁓ you know, at this line I want you to pan very slowly over to here and then find that at this point? And is he gonna is he gonna adjust that or is he gonna do what ⁓ you know, exactly as I asked because he's so specific. How long did it take for him to ⁓ you know, realize that that that you were a collaborator that he could trust? ⁓ I think it took us a couple of weeks ⁓ to both of us to to glue each other, you know, and and and trust each other. And and more than anything, we we we we trusted each other straight away, but more than anything was understanding each other. Because Ari was talking his vision out of his mind. He wasn't talking camera. And and and that stayed for the whole film. And for me was quite challenging. You know, I had to just absorb his vision step by step, frame by frame. the way was describing things happening and then translated into camera. So we used to have basically start a scene with a chat, you know, the three of us, myself, Pavel and Ari, and and and and having listening from Ari his vision about what was gonna happen and and the way he saw it and the way he wanted it. And then from there started to put it in practice without without going too technical with him because that would distract him for from his vision and the performance, you know. So I didn't want to put on the table, ⁓ you know, I'm gonna be in trouble with this lens here. What am I gonna do? So I tried always to solve those issues by myself with Pavel on the side and keep him fresh with his vision without interfering too much and and just offering the solution, you know, without going through the problem, you know, just present the polished version of what he was asking for, basically. That was my declaration. That's fascinating. That's fascinating. ⁓ I was just talking to a friend of mine who's a great operator, Ari Isler, the other day, and he said that one of the best things a director ever told him, or one of the best pieces of advice he ever got, which was from a director, was ⁓ don't make it different, make it better. And I thought totally, yes. Sound sounds great to me. Yes. Yeah, yeah. But well what a what a fascinating by the the war again, I'll just say it that some of the some of the best camera operating I tell camera operators watch that movie because talk about telling telling story with camera operating. Did was it was it hard sometimes? 'Cause some of the stuff that I see in there, after seeing it, ⁓ I I understand, you know, that it works, but it seems like the instinct on some of it would be a little hard to fight to to make some of those moves. work was that was that a hard thing to get used to? Extremely for me. It was it was extremely hard for me. ⁓ Ari's A Ari's vision again was so precise and and and I had to stick with it and and the first thing that he always only wanted and I cheated only a couple of times in the film, I can't I can say it now many years later, but of course. Yeah. Of course, as we like to do. He he's extremely fixated on center punch. So every actor has to be in the exact center of the frame. And for me that was a violation of my brain. ⁓ I was bleeding inside, you know. And and and and so much so that still remember the first few days and we we were starting on ⁓ on a on a close up of ⁓ Florence. ⁓ she's resting on a pillow and and every time he was turning away, I was trying to give the half a turn of the wheel, slowly, slowly, to make ⁓ Florence eyes ⁓ just ever so slightly in a more aesthetic, pleasant way that was for my eyes at the time, you know. Yeah. And every time I was going back, now I can see you put her back there like you know like I tried I tried. I tried. But You know, I i i it was ⁓ every time then it became a joke, of course. And ⁓ but then again, I had to embrace a ⁓ own vision. There was no other way around because it was a strong vision and I respected it from the beginning to the end. So it it was the way the the way to do it. No other way. But I think there's some I think there's something really important in that because at the end of the day as operators we We have to become who they need us to be, right? It's not because it is their it is their film at the end of the day. And yes, we're there to serve that story and serve that film. Yeah. You're so much right. ⁓ sometimes ego may go in the way. I I like to to pat myself on the back and and and say that I always ⁓ always think about twice ⁓ my if my ego is going in first and I always like to think of the story. that we're telling at the frame that we're telling and ⁓ and the director's vision and and as you mentioned before if I can make it better that's great or if if I have an incredible idea and I know that the director ⁓ it's it's you know it's ⁓ can can take it on board or or or can you know can s can discuss it that then then I feel free to say something, you know, and ⁓ and and offer up something. But otherwise I like to respect the vision first and and not put myself first. Well, ⁓ as I was saying before, I mean, you know, I I I d I didn't use this word earlier. I mean, he's really one of the few directors out there I th who I really consider to be an auteur. You know, ⁓ he's the complete i ⁓ it it's an i it's it's if it's it's his movie when you see the movie, do you know? Whereas you and I have worked for so many other directors who are fantastic in their own right. But it's much more of a collaborative, this is what I have, and you make it better, and you make it better, and you bring this and you bring that. ⁓ and ⁓ it's just that it it it it has the stamp of who he is on that. There's no question about it. And and we know now since seeing other movies. ⁓ do were you were you involved with the actors on a level that you were on other movies in that? Or for that reason, do you sort of pull back a lot? A lot a lot involved with the actors. ⁓ I was a lot involved with the actors because Because it was extremely hard to be there on set. And Florence, which is an incredible actress and a very nice person altogether. we spent a lot of time there and she had a very hard time there being in costume, you know, covered in flowers and you know endless scenes in in incredible hard sets, you know, to be. ⁓ We i it's it's a film that I keep in my heart because we ended up every night ⁓ together with all the cast and ⁓ in the same hotel, having a drink all together and and give each other a pat on the back and say, Hey, we've done an amazing work today, you know. Thank you very much for being there for me. You know, it it it i i it basically we we established, you know, friendships that lasted for many years. So I I I came across Florence ⁓ a couple of times on other jobs and ⁓ And she just hugged me when she sees me, you know, and we share a big hug that last a minute without saying nothing. You know, it's incredible. That that's the best. And I would imagine I mean, look, there was a lot of emotional stuff in that movie. And and from the looks of it, you know, exactly. You're five you're five feet away from her or four feet away from her or whatever. ⁓ but ⁓ you know, and and I don't know if ⁓ I would I'm gonna guess that you feel this way. I mean, that's one of the things that I love as being a camera operator, is that is that Many times they're performing for you when you're that close, don't you think? It it's such a privilege, Dave. A as you describe it, you know, being being a a foot away from somebody that has to go into such a demanding character, can you imagine? I mean, she she she cried ⁓ most of things, you know, in the lens and and I was there with her. So and and you know, her process to do things is incredible. So I I I Respect for her, of course, and her craft. What a what a privilege to be a part of that movie. ⁓ so ⁓ so so jumping from that to working with ⁓ Tim Burton, which you've done, I know at least two projects. I don't know if you've done more, but did you do all of Wednesday? I've done all the season one ⁓ with him. ⁓ I done all Tim Barton's episodes, I've done ⁓ old Tim Barton's episodes of season two, and then I've done ⁓ some of Bitter Juice, Bitter Juice. But that was on B camera. Gotcha. While on Wednesday, on Wednesday was on A camera. I mean he seems like another he seems like another director who knows what he wants. Yes. ⁓ Tim is an incredible Tim is an let me start with this. Tim is an incredible human being. ⁓ and ⁓ and now an incredible friend. I I I love him to bits and he knows. another incredible privilege to work with him. ⁓ I pinched myself every day that I wasn't set with him. well I I mean that's what I I'm looking at your movies and I'm like, wow, he works with all these geniuses. He's so lucky. It's amazing. Team ⁓ team never never work on a on a pre set ⁓ idea, you know. the The the way the way Tim works, he he's very visual director, luckily what that's what makes it incredible for me and for many others, of course. ⁓ Tim Tim will ⁓ will block a scene and rehearse a scene with the actors, and Tim will give an incredible freedom to the actors to express themselves. And Tim will want to see what they do in space and how the scene comes alive. with the with the actor's work and and that becomes a scene. And and when I witness every time I always shiver because it it's it's an incredible process. And and and I'm so lucky to to to have been part of it, you know, and and that's how the scene burns. And that borns there and then on set ⁓ at eight o'clock in the morning. And that's that's that's the first scene of the day. ⁓ And you can't, as you can imagine, in that way, you can't do much beforehand. You you have to be prepared, you have to be on your toes, you have to be very good, you have to embrace it, and and you have to be ready to shoot it. So Tim will look at me and go, You got it? Yep. And off he goes to his trailer. So there is me, prepping everything, you know. ⁓ First A D, ⁓ myself and director of photography, everyone at that point working on the on the blocking and ⁓ and make it work and start the rehearsal with the stand-in, ⁓ make it work into space, and then when everything works, ⁓ mechanically wise, call Tim on set because the first thing you don't want to do is to distract him with a mechanic thing that doesn't work. ⁓ Tim is very focused on performance. ⁓ he expects you ⁓ at a good level to to succeed straight away in what you're doing. He doesn't want to, you know, to to be the camera in the way of the process, which is so very understandable to me and and is clear, you know. We all have to be on board and ready to let the actors do what they rehearsed with him and and make it happen, you know, in a very fashionable way. And and from there on improve take by take and and it would take shape while team directing and giving notes and and and it's an incredible process to be part of. ⁓ yes. The incredible part is that team master give me probably two or three notes on in in three different projects that we worked together. That was it, you know? ⁓ that's to to give you an understanding of how we see his camera, but that That was i is not to pat myself on the back, but I I always managed to to understand what he wanted and read his mind. So Tim is is extremely precise on on setting up a room and all the details that goes in the background. So the way I saw it is just it it was played that plays actors into into a frame that we all see is working and then It takes shape from there on, you know, and then the actors start to do whatever they like to do and we work around that. But it it all starts with lines and shapes that has to make sense for our eyes. And and so do you so do you and the director of photography come up with the with the way it's gonna be shot in the blocking and then you offer it to him or does he involved in that at all? No, it's it's mostly Tim having a vision and and sometimes ⁓ it He skips steps because because you can see a lot is going on in his mind. And at that point the scene is taking it it's ⁓ it's already alive. It's ⁓ it's like him sketching and you can see that is happening in his mind. So ⁓ many times he he he tells me, Okay, I I want I I I want this happening here, you know, this and then at this point Jenna does this, okay. So Wednesday does this. And and I take it on board and say, Yeah, sure, Tim. And and he can't be bothered around listening to where or on which lens goes that into place, as far as it goes into place in a very nice way and the way he wants it. So it that is the detail that you have in the scene. So you have to be ready to make everything sit around that detail, you know, and the and then the rest comes together by itself. Yeah. It sounds like a lot of stress, is it? ⁓ Yeah ⁓ yeah ⁓ I would say so. But it's ⁓ I I call it I call it nice stress. I loved I I I would call it challenge more than stress. ⁓ and it's challenge because and it's challenge because Tim is is incredibly old school and incredibly experienced. He he was successful when I was still licking ice creams, you know, and barely going on a bicycle. So he be he's been around forever. So i and he is been why it's been what my one of my inspirations. So it I I always trusted him in the process. And he knows exactly like many other experienced ⁓ people in in that surrounds our self onset, he knows exactly every step of the process and he knows everyone's job. So He knows things can go wrong. He he he knows when you work hard, he recognizes your work. And it it it doesn't bother him if if something doesn't work that is part of the process without being annoyed, you know. He goes, okay, okay, we we we we can go again for this, you know. And and it's so old school that ⁓ as soon as we cut, the first thing that it does, and that reminds us the old days, he looked at me and he asked me if we got the shot the shot. Because at the time yes. ⁓ tell me about it. I tell me about it. I'm still shivering because as you well know, at the time we were the only ones looking in the viewfinder. And there weren't 30 monitors around and set. So we had the optical viewfinder. We were the proprietary, you know, the the ones that knew if we had the shot or not. So every time it that's the habit, you know, Tames looks around and goes, have we got this? Yeah, okay, we're moving on. I I I and that makes it so so fulfilling. Man, it's it's hard to describe, yes. A d a dream, seriously. Yeah. ⁓ and it also must just be it must be a complete playground to work on his stuff because it's so visually I mean, it just seems like you can't go in there and and shoot something bad. It it just seems like the sets are amazing and the production design and everything. Yeah, I would say it's I would say it's hard to make it bad. ⁓ yes. ⁓ Well we we we we with some yes safety ⁓ in there. He his set designer ⁓ is incredible. I mean it's ⁓ Tim is a genius, he is a visionary and that applies to yes, to everything it does. So he has a vision on a set what it has to be, and the set will show you know, will come up as as it needs to be incredibly well built and full of details and and you are into into a dream. You know, you're into a dream with the responsibility to transfer it onto film, you know, over digital cards. And go going back to the idea that he's kind of figuring out as he goes, I mean, not in a bad way, but watching watching what the actors do and then then responding to that. That said, does he go into his scenes with an idea that he wants this to be fluid or he wants this to be static or or or does he is it is it a blank slate until he sees what the actors do? most of time most of time is a blank slate because he wants to see what the actors how the actors fill the scene ⁓ what the actors ideas are about the character where the character is going how they're developing it what what what's the right direction what is not the right direction ⁓ and and that's the beauty of the process that I haven't seen with any other director. It all happens there in a blog, which is a privilege to watch. It's just incredible. And he he gives not just to the actors, that the beauty of working with him is it gives everyone he chooses to be with, it gives incredible freedom. So that applies to every HODs, ⁓ the camera operator, the DPs, and and Tim likes to trust the people around him. That they will do their best job. And that it creates an incredible, unbelievable vibe on set where everyone is eager to be there and the air is fizzing and is electrostatic, and you are creating magic. And and I'm still shivering when I say it because it's just incredible. That's what a what a privilege. That's fantastic. Well, but the but the funny thing is, like you say that is And and I've seen this before, and I know you've seen it. Well, you've seen it here, obviously, but you know, once you once you sort of charge people with making it better and and trusting them to do better, 99% of the people will step up and do even better than they would have normally, right? It just becomes it becomes what they want to do. indeed. It's the good old process of filming, you know, that you you you step it up and you step it up and you step it up, and and from there it becomes magic. And that reminds me the fact that ⁓ the first time I worked with Tim Burton and the first time I met him, he was ⁓ to put it mildly, allergic to steadicum, or better put it, frightened, frightened of steadicum. and that is unfortunately an experience that I ⁓ went through with many other directors, and that was because probably had bad experiences and and he didn't like the language of it, bad experiences, and you name it. And ⁓ I think was day one on season one of Wednesday, so no pressure there. ⁓ we were in a corridor and something went very, very wrong. I can't ⁓ I can't elaborate now, but something went very, very wrong. And and we had to shoot The shot on Steadicum. And the shot was Jenna walking in the corridor in an extreme close-up, the lens ⁓ I would say three inches away from her eyes. And on a very tight lens, on a steady cam again. And and and and the pressure was immense because Tim didn't, I don't want to say he didn't believe in it, but he at that point he was frightened and sitting in a corner and And needed to see it if it was close to his vision and his ideas. Yeah. ⁓ and I I went to Jenna and ⁓ I and ⁓ and and Jenna is incredible. It's that that's another podcast entirely dedicated to her. Because when I met her, I think she was 19. I didn't know her work. I know she was already very well established in ⁓ in in films, doing Scream and whatnot, and ⁓ But it it I we were very new to each other. And I went to Jen and I said, Look, we're in trouble here. I really, really, really need your help. ⁓ that's the only way we got to shoot it. ⁓ I need you. I explained there the shot and I said, Look, your eyes will need to be traveling with the camera. You know, we're traveling together. If I see your steps at that point, you will be floating into the lens. And she looked at me and she went, Don't worry, I got you. And On first yeah and I say okay well I I I she better does and and first rehearsal you walk away you're not sure whether that what that means, right? Yeah exactly you know and you are okay you pr I'm I'm praying with with everyone else and and and we show we show we show a rehearsal to Tim. So first rehearsal it it went extremely well. So the the first rehearsal is basically working, and and at that point I hear Tim screaming goes, ⁓ ⁓ my god, that that that's working, that's working. Let's shoot it, let's shoot it. I love it, let's shoot it. So that that was day one. that was day one of me with Tim ⁓ not liking Stadicum, forcing him into Stadicum because of what was going on and and him liking it. So ⁓ my god, you know, I went out of ⁓ of a bad story with some blue stars on the on on my shoulder and And that set up some yes, some some great stories, you know, to go away with and and some respect. So Tim was happier to shoot with Stadicam and and day by day we starting using it a little bit more. And and then he was by you know, block four was very excited to shoot in Stadicam, you know. Amazing and good for you, by the way. Thank you from all of us. That's fantastic. So so it's funny because between these two movies, I mean, ⁓ well, two experiences, two directors, they really are the complete extreme opposites, and yet both of them sound like they're amazing to work with. Yes, I would say so, yes. ⁓ yeah, they're both very extremes in the in their visions and and and and both incredible to work with. ⁓ yes. ⁓ you just finished ⁓ Werewolf with Robert Eggers. Yes. ⁓ I I've done ⁓ it was another incredible ⁓ another incredible ⁓ set to be on, ⁓ another privilege. ⁓ and it all started at 11 30 at night ⁓ when the phone rang and ⁓ a producer ⁓ asked me to ⁓ join a set the day after, somewhere lost in some forest, and ⁓ and then I get a text from ⁓ A very good friend of mine, focus pooler, ⁓ Ashley Bond, the I'm still grateful that he brought me on board, ⁓ saying, ⁓ we are in trouble. ⁓ we need your help. We need ⁓ we need to shoot something that ⁓ we're supposed to shoot on a on a 70 75 or 78 foot crane. And for whatever reason the crane failed. ⁓ but still the crane wouldn't have been able to shoot a shot. ⁓ I learned that later on. Anyway, ⁓ I show up on set ⁓ to do ⁓ a one day steadycom daily, you know, to do the shot. ⁓ which was a night a night shot anyway, and nobody described what it was because they were all ⁓ busy filming and ⁓ Robert liked to shoot a camera only, so it was Chris Bleving that was ⁓ the incredible Chris Chris Pleving. shooting a camera that was ⁓ doing the shot. So I was away from set and ⁓ just getting ready. of course on film so on an Aricam LT that I had incredible memories ⁓ of back in the days. ⁓ but and sadly nowadays has turned into something else because the AHD video tap on top is as big as two bricks ⁓ hold to get held together with a bit of tape. So The whole contraption was weighting. I I I can't remember what was the weight, but needless to say, I was at that point on black canisters on a pro arm at the end of the black canisters with a sled that was as tall as tall as to have a picture somewhere. Crazy heavy. And ⁓ and then I get described the shot, which is ⁓ which was an incredible ⁓ Shot, ⁓ at least for my legs and my back and my mind. with something like probably 30, 35 characters. And I counted, I think, at least seven steadicum switches on my body. at a fast pace ⁓ at night, only lit by ⁓ fire, a real fire. And 30 characters dancing around in a ritual, and I won't say much more because the film is not out, ⁓ so I can't say anything else. Yeah. Yes. ⁓ and ⁓ and again, you are talking ⁓ about Robert Eggers, which is incredibly specific, and ⁓ and Jaren, ⁓ his DP is even more specific. ⁓ so Jaren Blashge is BSE is is another incredible visionary director of photography. You may have seen the trailer of Werewolf. incredibly specific on the way it needs to be shot and everything needs to fall into play. So again, deja vu, why did you guys call me and I end up here at midnight shooting this thing until four o'clock in the morning? Am I ⁓ is it a curse, you know? but I think it is a curse in in some good good and bad way. But Th there I was again sho shooting something extremely hard to put together ⁓ in a night ⁓ or what was left of a night ⁓ with a very incredible heavy package on a film camera, ⁓ on a steady cam ⁓ six seven switches ⁓ trying to make everyone happy. And to say Robert Eggers was, I like to say, another director, and Jaren was another DP that hated the stadicum with a passion. ⁓ Because it's just not not part of their languages. Everything is on a crane or on a dolly because the travel of camera is way more specific and less free to move around. It's all part of a different language, as simple as this. ⁓ So I had to make the Staticum fit into that. ⁓ Good luck. Yeah. ⁓ but after that night, ⁓ I found myself ⁓ in something must have worked because I found myself to stay with them for the rest of the film. So with dozens, few few other Stadicam shots in ⁓ you know in very hard conditions and and and you know at the end of the film the the best thing that happened was that Jaron came to me and said, You know the way I see the frames, you know, you know my opinion on Stadicam. ⁓ you're my new guy. You know, you're my guy for standing now. and it was it it was so I mean, I was so humbled, you know. It was it was the best thing that I could hear. It was that was a testament of of a job well done. And ⁓ you know, it it was very fulfilling. Fantastic. Did did did I hear correctly that that film is shot on two lenses? Yes, you heard correct. ⁓ it was shot on ⁓ on on just two lenses. We had various ⁓ set of lenses. I don't know what I can disclose yet, so I won't go into specific. ⁓ that's all right, but I I heard that and yes, again, Robert and Jaren very, very specific on those two lenses because it's the way they envisioned the story, you know. What an interesting way to way to make something. And the other thing that I understand is that that he, at least for this, wanted everything to be level, ⁓ not tilting up or tilting down. Is that is that true? Absolutely true, absolutely correct. And that was another requirement on that first night. And I'm dealing with ⁓ a ca a lens position that has to be not tilted and at the same time a hip height. And this led was so long. that the battery was scraping the floor in few parts. So ⁓ I still have I still have PTSD about that shot. ⁓ I'm no kidding. That happened in November and I still have ⁓ I still have bat nights, you know yes. ⁓ it was I'm I'm sweating the I I'm sweating listening to it, but ⁓ but they liked it, so you're ⁓ you were obviously made the right call, right? ⁓ that's that's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was lucky enough to get out of it ⁓ winning, and ⁓ and after that I was even more lucky because we found ⁓ a 435 on the camera truck that wasn't get used. ⁓ there were only two camera bodies, only two camera LT bodies and ⁓ one studio and one LT. That were used and only a camera was playing because Robert is an A cameraman, he doesn't like second camera. So the four yeah, the four three five was sitting there taking dust. And ⁓ the focus pooler, my focus pooler Leo Holber, ⁓ said, you know what, what why don't we ask and ⁓ and swap this for ⁓ two three five? ⁓ you know, we we had a few weeks in the forest in Wales ahead of us with gruesome work to do, and ⁓ and luckily they said, Yeah, okay, let's test. you know the the camera and see how it works tet test filters and everything so i got to have a 235 which was a dream because then we built a proper dream rig made for gruesome you know ⁓ situations and luckily we got it so we we went out of some other very hard shots that i can describe into details again but ⁓ lucky we had that because we were into mud up until the knees and ⁓ it was it was incredible. ⁓ Wow. Well I look forward to seeing it. ⁓ although now I'm gonna have PTSD watching it. and ⁓ jo j jumping to the one other thing I want to ask you about because it seems like something totally different than all these ⁓ the Mission Impossible movies that you've worked on. ⁓ because that just seems like a very different scenario than the the other ones that you just described to me. Very different, yes. Yeah, that was ⁓ incredible experience. Wow. ⁓ yeah, I didn't sleep much before to make it on set, as you can imagine. the my first time on ⁓ on mission was on ⁓ on mission seven and was ⁓ to fill in for Chunky, incredible operator, ⁓ Jonathan Richmond, ⁓ an incredible operator, a camera operator. ⁓ he he needed ⁓ just to ⁓ give you an idea of the amount of work on that set and ⁓ of stress and overload he needed two weeks of holiday ⁓ to step back and work you know and and yes and and take his life back ⁓ because he was going s so through so much. and so I had the privilege to to step in and ⁓ and fill in for himself for a couple of weeks on a camera on on main unit. ⁓ no pressure. ⁓ so ⁓ it it it's it's been incredible. ⁓ I I've been lucky enough to to to start with two weeks ⁓ as a daily operator and ⁓ and I stayed with them three years and a half on and off. co covering many many things being a camera ⁓ B camera on main unit or ⁓ going on on ⁓ going off on ⁓ on second unit or DPing second unit. i it I I've done a bit of everything. It's a it's a very let's describe it as a very tight environment where ⁓ it's very hard to succeed, but once you succeed, ⁓ they won't let you go. So I still remember the first after after the first two weeks when I filled the shoes of Chunky. I was packing my equipment on a Friday afternoon. And ⁓ and Mary the first AD came ⁓ came to me and said, Hey, hey, hey, stop what you're doing, Tom. Tom wants wants to say goodbye to you. And ⁓ and and and I stepped back in and I was ⁓ very frightened in a corner, you know, and and and and Tom was there and and and and Mc McQue, Chris McQuarrie was there and and Tom started shouting, Hey Fabrizio, come here. Hi five, you've been amazing. Thank you so much, man. Amazing work. And he gave me a hug, you know, and he lifted me off the floor and it was holy cow, okay, that's an experience. And but that's how Tom how amazing Tom is, you know, it's it's an incredible man to work around. Wow. And and again, he's another one that really knows everyone work and he really appreciates if you work hard for him. So yeah. So that that that became a very long relationship when I get cold again for three years and a half. ⁓ You know, ⁓ being on the side of Chunky and ⁓ and doing everything That's great. And and it was incredible, yes. A very, very different experience, of course, from working with Tim Barton. Yeah ⁓ as you're Well l let me ask you. So so you you you're going in for that that that first two weeks and on that first day, like you said, you're not sleeping the night before. How do you I mean you've been doing this for a long time, but still how do you how do you I mean that, you know, you've stepped into a huge level there. And like you said, you're filling in for a friend. So the last thing you want to do is drop the ball on top of just not wanting to drop the ball. How do you push out the what what do you do to push out the nerves and put out push out the anxiety and do your job as well as you can and not let it get to you? Right. That's a very good question, Dave. it's a very good question. And I learned that during the years. I think you I think is ⁓ it's a skill to master. And That said, I I never I never slept okay anytime I had to go on that set. Never because my brain starts spinning at midnight and it goes into shooting mode and there's nothing I can do to help it. It it's not just stress, it's just i i my mind goes in I'm ready. I'm in ready mode. That that said, w when you step on set, you can't show stress. And and on my book is very important, is on page one, I do not allow myself to share and spread stress onto my team and and onto any other department because because that would create a vibe ⁓ that is polluting and is and is wrong, you know. so that is a skill, in my opinion, to develop and and to have. You can't go away if you want to be around on those kind of sets that are very, very, very demanding. There's no shortcut to that. and and you have to possess the skill. Doesn't matter the way you reach it, ⁓ doesn't matter if you're gifted to have it already in you. And a lot comes from self-confidence, I think. And is the self-confidence. That doesn't come through the last 12 hours of your life. It comes through the past 20 years of what you've done. And you got you failed many times before. I did at least. And ⁓ and ⁓ and you you you now know that that you can do it. It doesn't mat it doesn't matter what it is, you can do it, you know, and you can tell yourself, yes, I can do it. It doesn't matter what it is. Being Tim Barton telling you at eight o'clock what the shot is, you better get it right, or being Tom Cruise telling you, okay, that's the shot, you know, I'll now jump in there and and and that's the lens, you know, and you're there to do it. So i if you can't cope with that, i i i i it it falls apart. ⁓ but to give you an idea of the pressure, that was a fun a fun story. But ⁓ the the my first day I was filling in for Chunky. ⁓ I still remember the key grip came to me. It was around midday. And he put an arm around my shoulder and he said, Hey Fab, you you you're gonna be with us forever, you know that. and and then he laughed and and went away. And that I I couldn't I couldn't picture what he was talking about. And then I realized later on, I learned later on that ⁓ there were few operators that they went through in a very, very quick ⁓ you know, ⁓ manner. ⁓ and many didn't last. So I realized that I passed the four hours mark and and I was still there. It was a very good sign. And ⁓ I I can say he was right three years and a half later. ⁓ yes, bless him he was right. That's that's fantastic. Well, look, sometimes that's the best way to come into a job is when you come in after one or two people who haven't done well because the bar is a little lower and Then you just gotta sort of get past that and then you can step up, right? Yeah, yeah, and and and sometimes ⁓ I I I I know the people that was there before, they they're incredible operators as well, you know. But sometimes it it's a very ⁓ hard and demanding and and and fast-paced environment. And ⁓ and and sometimes you you have to step up the game. I always say around Tom at 150%, because that's the way he does things, is always 150%. So You better be above your best because that what is asking you at that time. So if you can do that, fine. If you're not ready for that, mm, you're not gonna last. So sometimes not everyone is cut for that, you know. so I I can see it, you know, and that and that's the reason why I I I couldn't sleep before to to to go on set, you know. ⁓ it's what it is. That makes sense. What's the ⁓ what's the best part of your job and what's the worst part of your job? Hmm. ⁓ could be both the same answer. ⁓ it could be both the at the same time the the privilege of witnessing some magic happening unfolding in front of your eyes, ⁓ seeing incredible actors and incredible directors and incredible l lighting going on at the same time. And and and at the same time the the responsibility that is on your shoulder to to make it at the best of the best that you have seen it and and and and make it even better o of the way it's offered in front of your eyes, you know, offer your experience and and and your vision on top of that, w without altering, but at the same time enhancing it. So it can be a privilege and a responsibility at the same time. That's a great answer. That's a great answer. ⁓ I think I asked you ahead of time, but ⁓ five movies that you think that every camera operator should see, every up and coming camera operator should see. Right. ⁓ that's a tough one because my list is very long as you can imagine, as I imagine yours is. Well you can you can you could give a couple more, whatever. Yeah. I I I would put the first one, ⁓ the very first one at the top of the list. ⁓ and I talk about earlier on is Carlitos Way. ⁓ and ⁓ it it takes a special place in my life because I watched it the first time it came out, it was nineteen ninety-three, and it was just before I left Italy. And it was a story that stayed in my heart for many, many years. ⁓ the just the beauty of the story, the romanticism around the story, so beautifully told. And I watched it probably fift ten, fifteen times, up until the the magic time that I watched it. one of a too many and I fell in love with Stadicam without even knowing it was Stadicam at the time, you know. And so that that film is for me it's in a special ⁓ place on its own, you know, it's it's more than a film for me. I am who I am, thanks to to that film. And ⁓ I every time ⁓ I had ⁓ the pleasure to work on set ⁓ on ⁓ Wednesday with ⁓ Luis Guzman. ⁓ which was at the time ⁓ on the Kalitus way it was Pachanga if you can remember incredible character so incredibly well performed and every time I was next to Luis I was pinching myself and and I speak Spanish ⁓ luckily and ⁓ and ⁓ I I've I've been in South America for a while in Caribbean islands and in Mexico a few years or so I I I I speak ⁓ Spanish with South American accent. So he always threw jokes in ⁓ you know in ⁓ in Puerto Rican ⁓ accent and ⁓ and and I was getting back to him and ⁓ and sadly I never had the chance I never had the chance to tell him ⁓ how important he was to my eyes. I always kept it for myself. I'm a bit of a shy person so I always I always kept it for me but you know incredible really. ⁓ yes ⁓ after that I would say hit ⁓ hit incredible film ⁓ Al Pacino Robert De Niro, one of the most incredibly shot ⁓ shootout on streets, Jimmy Murro, Steady Cam. ⁓ my lord. ⁓ I I I I wouldn't know where I wouldn't know where to start how to describe it. Again, a film that I watched probably ten, fifteen times. ⁓ I I could still watch it to be amazed, beginning to end. another amazing one, ⁓ a bit more dated, but that left a mark into my aesthetic ⁓ senses, ⁓ Kill Bill Volume 1. the the graphics, the colors, the framing, ⁓ the aesthetic I'm again of Larry going through corridors and angles, and I spent hundreds of hours trying to mimic his way he was operating through those corridors with those Details and stares, and ⁓ he's always been my inspiration, of course, in Study Come Words. So ⁓ that is another film that keeps ⁓ that I keep in a very special place, ⁓ where I've been absorbing a lot from Joker, ⁓ another incredible film to my eyes. very heavy to absorb. ⁓ I I I I still remember ⁓ when I watched it in cinema, I was just wow. ⁓ I I couldn't I couldn't talk after the credits. I was still absorbing the the the performance of the acting and and the colors and ⁓ and then the rendition and everything. Wow. What else to say apart from wow. yeah. Interstell interstellar, maybe less operating, ⁓ incredible operating without taking anything away, but the story ⁓ still stays with me. And ⁓ I I have a daughter, so to me, to me it's incredible. Yeah. That's a fantastic list. That's a great that's a great story list. ⁓ Interstellar, I I I hasn't made I think anybody else's list, so I love that that's in there. Yeah, I I I loved the the incredible way of how the story was told and I love the ⁓ authenticity of the story despite being so sci-fi ⁓ but in incredibly well told. ⁓ I have to add a sixth one because I can't go without Annie's gladiator. Another incredible film and ⁓ another incredible ⁓ incredible acting and ⁓ I had the luck to work with ⁓ Russell Crowe recently on ⁓ on Highlander, ⁓ which I was doing some camera work and ⁓ yeah, I mean every time I look at him I couldn't stop just daydreaming and joke look look at him in and and couple of times it was looking up on ⁓ on another actor that was on a on a first floor on a set and I was in front of him and he was and he still had that exact look that he would give to the tribune, you know, to Caesar. And it was like, ⁓ my God sh shall I cry here? Or or that's great. Or go around in the detent and and cry Yeah, I I'm still a soft for those things. I was just gonna say, so you still you're still affected by this and you still love it after all these years? ⁓ totally. I I'm I'm absolutely not immune to those things. I'm I'm ⁓ magic magic is magic to me and ⁓ and that's what keeps me going. I I wouldn't I wouldn't want to do this job if I didn't love it still, because I think I think especially as a static cam operator or a camera operator, I think it's too hard if you don't like it. Because because My my wife grew grew both my kids ⁓ thanks to her, you know. ⁓ I've always been away. I'd never been home when ⁓ when I was needed. I've never been home on ⁓ on birthdays, I've never been home on important things, ⁓ I never be home full stop. So i i it it takes a toll on your life. This is the less glamorous part that people doesn't see or that they don't like to think about. But a as you well know, i you know, we we we pay a price there's always a price to pay, put it this way. ⁓ money doesn't come for free, the the you know, the success doesn't come for free. Th always have to invest a lot into and ⁓ and it's definitely a huge toll that I think we we pay to do what we do. But if you love it, I I wouldn't swap it with anything else. ⁓ I I still love it. You know, I'm I'm I'm I think I'm still extremely privileged and ⁓ and lucky. you know, and blessed. Fantastic. Well, listen, this has been great. I'm gonna leave you with ⁓ a first of all, thank you. ⁓ it's been wonderful listening to you and talking with you. Thank you. Thank you for your patience and listening. ⁓ it's it's my pleasure. I'm gonna leave you with the question that I leave everybody with and you can take us out. ⁓ advice ⁓ for someone getting into the business now on how to succeed and or maybe something that you learned along the way that you wish you knew a little sooner in your career. Right. ⁓ something that I would love to have ⁓ learned before. politics. That's the hardest part ⁓ in ⁓ in our word. The way to navigate, the way to navigate on set and around set ⁓ politics, ⁓ with with everyone, because politics apply to to everyone, to apply to to your focus pooler to To your camera team, to your director of photography, director, producers, actors. ⁓ it you know, you get to work with some incredible talented people and and many actors, they have their own way to do things that you may not know. And it it it it can be incredibly challenging to fit into it straight away, you know, from day one and click with them and ⁓ and keep them make them comfortable, make them relaxed, letting them know they they can trust you. fully in what you when you say something you know that is related to the framing and the aesthetic and applies to the shot and then they they can know that they are in good hands you know and then they will start asking you for your opinion on how things develops you know ⁓ I would say which is what I ⁓ what I what I say it very often ⁓ during study camp courses or or is the same advice that I give to ⁓ all my trainees and ⁓ and second ACs that asks for suggestions. there there's no shortcuts. It's ⁓ it's a hard climb, it's a hard way through. it it it there's so much to learn but it's so enjoyable on the way. To do. If if you're passionate about s build be passionate. still be passionate and and and dream and dream even bigger. That's so important. Never stop dreaming and and dream as big as you can because that is the motivation that will bring you far one day. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.