Dave C: On today's episode, we'll talk about starting out in editing, who the star of the show really is, ER, SEAL team, and of course, watching Alan Arkin and James Kahn throw things off the roof of the commissary. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website, theop.io, is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Black it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Victor 30 Echo Tech 2. Hey Mark. Hey Mark. Camera set. Action. Hello and welcome back to the OP Podcast, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I am Dave Komides and ⁓ talking with ⁓ someone who was really instrumental in my career, ⁓ and ⁓ I learned a tremendous amount from, and I suspect we're gonna learn a tremendous amount from today, hopefully. ⁓ Director producer Christopher Chulak. ⁓ some of his ⁓ credits, but not all by any means. ⁓ SEAL Team, Shameless, Southland, ER, Third Watch. That's where we kind of ran into each other. And I'm not gonna say ⁓ all, but DJA directorial achievement for nineteen ninety-six ER, Helen Highwater, which is considered one of the top ER episodes. If you haven't seen it, you should. Another in nineteen ninety-seven. ⁓ nominated in 1998 and 2005. He also got with John Wells the DJI Diversity Award. ⁓ and on top of that, just as a little aside, 11 Emmy nominations and two wins. ⁓ and interestingly, three for film sound editing, including Fantasy Island, which I was probably not allowed to stay up to watch, and ⁓ Police Story, which I thought was kind of cool. So ⁓ all in all, he's won seven awards and nominated for 13. A really, really smart filmmaker and storyteller, and ⁓ someone haven't seen for a long time. So I'm really excited. Chris, thanks for for jumping on the podcast. ⁓ you're welcome. ⁓ thanks for having me, Dave. We we we just got through ⁓ with Chris telling me that he's he's notoriously shy in front of the camera. So by the way, we're not recording video here, so just so you know. We're good. So so so Chris, tell me tell me your story. How'd you get into the film industry? ⁓ well it's it's a kind of a long story. I'll I'll try to chop it up a little bit for you. So I you know I graduated from high school when I was seventeen. And ⁓ And ⁓ I didn't really want to go to college. I just wasn't, you know, I was I was a little bit of a rebellious kid and whatnot. Anyway, I was this LA? Did you grow up in LA? Born and raised in East LA, graduated from high school, a cathedral high school under the shadow of Dodger Stadium. Okay. So I I ⁓ did did a couple of jobs. I worked at a gas station, then I was ⁓ driving a truck for day and night motor parts and I did that for I don't know, a year, year and a half. And then my dad used to, you know, is like getting mad at me, like, what do what are we doing here, kid? You gotta go to school, man. I said, I don't want to go to school. I'm not, I'm not ready for school. I just his youngest brother, my uncle Fred, was a film editor. Okay. So I called and I was always afraid of him. He was the youngest Chulak of seven boys, you know, and he was a marine and tough guy, great guy, love him. And ⁓ I called him up and I said, Uncle Fred. I said, what is this film editing thing you do? What do you what is it? He says, why? He says, why you asking? I said, ⁓ because my dad's, you know, on me about going to college and this and that and wants her to be a lawyer. And ⁓ he says, go to school. We hung up the phone. So, you know, I ⁓ I waited a little bit, meaning a week, and I called him back and and I bugged him, you know, I pushed him a little bit. He says, All right, you want to know what I do? He says, What do you do on Thursday? I said, Well, I'm driving a truck. He says, Well, you can't drive a truck. You pick me up. He lived in Glendale. You pick me up and you take me to the studio. Nice. I said, ⁓ yeah. So I said, okay. I picked him up at eight o'clock in the morning. We drove to Radford Studios, CBS, Radford. Yeah. And he was in one of three editors on Hawaii 5 0. No way. Wow. The original, original one. And you had no idea. No, I d I just knew it was film editing. Yeah. So drive onto the lot. One of the first pe pe I've never been on a movie, you know, a lot. One of the first people I saw was Mary Tyler Moore. And I was like, ⁓ my goodness. I yeah. So anyway, he takes me upstairs to the cutting rooms and they were cutting Y five O. I think it was the last season of Gunsmoke, or there was a bunch of shows that they were putting up there. And ⁓ go into his editing room. He says, Chris, this is Greg Wong, my assistant. ⁓ Chris is my nephew and he takes his shirt off and he has a a a B neck t-shirt he always wore. And he pulled up a chair for me to sit behind him and we sat, you know, he's he was sitting at the Moviola and everything, you know, and he showed me click click click you know how it works. And that was my so cool. Yes, that was my introduction to ⁓ to film. So anyway, anyway, I I did that for a couple of months and it was fun because I got to go to lunch, go to Duparts. on Ventura Boulevard and and ⁓ and I met a lot of the other editors ⁓ and they would say, Come on, kid, come on in. So ⁓ that was special and I I feel very fortunate to have had that in my life. Yeah. And ⁓ so I did that like I said for a couple of months. He he he in the interim he sent me, he says, Go down a sunset boulevard, local seven seven six, I think it was the it was the editor's guild. He filled out a fo you know like an application. And I did. So then I, you know, I didn't do that for much longer. And and then about a year later, not a year, six months, I get a phone call. And there's a guy on the other phone who says, I'm whatever his name was ⁓ from local seven seven six. He says, Is this Christopher Chulak? I said, Yeah. He says there there's a a posting, all the everybody on the roster is working. There's a posting at Columbia Television ⁓ for for a job ⁓ for delivery. you know, a delivery boy. I said, okay. Yeah. He said, you want to go for the interview? I said, yeah. So I go down and I meet with a guy named Chuck Silvers. He's the head of post production for Columbia TV. And ⁓ I walk into, he says, You're Chulak. Yeah. He says, You can you ride a bike? And I was like, Excuse me? He says, Can you ride a can you ride a bike? I love this. I ⁓ can you ride a bike? And I said, Yes, sir. He says, okay. He says, I got an old man that can't do it anymore. If you can ride a bike, you you got the job. I said, What's the job? He says, Del delivering film dailies and movies to the twenty-two projection rooms on and it was at Warner Brothers, the Warner Brothers lot, the Columbia television shared with Warner Brothers. So I so I come to work, they they ⁓ I park my little Volkswagen, they they give me the bike with a big basket on it, I go meet Sam Wilson, who was the head of shipping, and Johnny Burlach, who was ⁓ the guy that couldn't ride the bike anymore. He was, you know, just and gave me a map where all the you know project where all the projection room and I delivered film all day to various projection rooms. And then put, you know, re got ⁓ back and put the movies downstairs in storage and helped the ⁓ assistant editors pick up their dailies and you know, so so ⁓ After a little while, a couple of months, they had to taft heart lead me into the editors guild. Okay. Can you explain to people what that is who might not know? ⁓ well, ⁓ you know, the editors guild is a union and ⁓ everybody was working and I but I can't I can't not be a member of the union and collect a check. So so I got into the union, got my card as an apprentice. I was called now I'm called an apprentice film editor. Okay. Yeah. And ⁓ and I gotta tell you, you know, for me, money wasn't bad. It's a union job, you know. That's great. So so and that's kinda how I started. So what year is this? ⁓ nineteen forty two. No. No, I think it feels that way. Yeah, it feels that way. I don't know like seventy yeah something? Yeah, it's seventy something, seventy Okay. Well, I'm just thinking Mary Tyler Moore. It's probably like seventy six, seventy seven, something like Seventy yeah. That's pretty good's pretty good. ⁓ yeah, wait. Hey, well, let me ask a question. Was Mary Tyler more spinning and throwing her ha hat up in the air? Nobody's gonna No, she was she was mad, she was throwing it on the ground. She it was the part that they cut out. anyway, ⁓ so did you so you you you you got in as an assistant editor, so you are you getting as an an apprentice. Apprentice, sorry, an apprentice. So what what do you what jobs is that like is that like a trainee kind of thing? Well the assistant editors would send the dailies down to the coding machine. That's where you put a code on the edge of the thirty-five millimeter picture and the thirty-five millimeter s ⁓ single stripe track. That's how they would sync up their daily. Sync it up. ⁓ okay. Okay. Right. So it's a it's a little number that you line up the numbers on, you know, overlap them and then you're you're gonna be in sync. So so it comes straight to them from the lab. It basically gets gets processed. They send it there. The number goes on and then it goes to editing so they can sync it up and start doing their thing. And I'm and I'm downstairs and you know I was taught how to code film. And you kind of work for the assistants, you know. And ⁓ Yeah. So that's that's how that happened. And then eventually I ⁓ did that for a little while and ⁓ it was fascinating to me ⁓ to be on a lot and You know, back then the in those days the lots were like family. I mean, it was like a little coun company store like this. You know, like everybody all the secretaries and people that have worked there for years and wardrobe and you know, they all knew each other and they ate at the commissary and it was very it's great. Yeah, it's so s it was kind of sweet in a way. Yeah, but it's like it's like it's like a little town, right? Like it's a little like a little wild Walled down, right? Yeah. So would you go to the commissary and see like actors from TV shows? Were they in there as well? ⁓ yeah. I mean I I remember being there. I don't know where where it was in my journey, but I mean like I remember being there when in the commissary when I looked and then Richard Dreyfus was in there and it was and he ha remember that scene where he got burned or what like he had subject. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He was in there eating his lunch. I remember seeing. I remember seeing ⁓ Al ⁓ Alan Arkin and James Kahn on the commissary roof throwing shit at people. They were doing Freebie and the Bean Freebie and the Bean. Remember that movie Freebie and the Bean? Yeah, sure. ⁓ that's so great. ⁓ yeah, it was all these editors. I not you know, not only film editing, but sound editing and looping. All those guys worked in the editorial building. So I knew all these men. They were all much, much older than me. and ⁓ And it was quite an education. So I became an apprentice film editor, then I became an assistant sound editor. So we would build the units, the the sound editors would would pick the sound effects, we would build them and then take them to the dubbing or mixing stage to the so that they could mix the show. And then from there from there I ⁓ this guy Dick Friedman asked me to come to work for him. He was the head of looping. So he looped all the actors, you know, like he for all the shows. There was like I don't know, police story, policewoman, Nakia, ⁓ David Gerber David Gerber we'll we'll get to in a little while, ⁓ was the president of Columbia Television. And ⁓ and so it was it was qu it was phenomenal. So I learned a lot and ⁓ would you know as an as then I bec I bec I was ⁓ I'm trying to think what came first, the looping or the assistant editing. Wait, when you say looping, do you mean ADR? ADR. Is that Yeah, looping. Yeah, the I was gonna say they don't really call it that anymore, but I thought that's what it So it's when they go so they go in and watch it and they've gotta redo the lines or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Autom automated dialog dialogue dialogue replacement. Yeah. But looping sounds better. Yeah. So I you know, I would ⁓ w we would go to dailies and, you know, everybody would be at Dailies, David Gerber included and ⁓ Met him, very interesting dude, very powerful guy. ⁓ so I became a looping editor, ⁓ looping assistant and then a looping editor. So I got to deal with actors. You know, Dick Friedman would say, Go you go ahead you go ahead and loop ⁓ us loop Angie Dickinson. I'm like, Really? Okay, yeah. So yeah, yeah. And so when you're doing that, are the are the directors in there with you or are you just occasion occasionally. Sometimes they would come. But ⁓ most of the time no. ⁓ Wow. Yeah. Wow. So that's I mean, 'cause that's kind of amazing. And actually it's it's like it's like an easy way in to learn how to work with actors, I guess, because they just want to get in and out and it's absolutely right. Absolutely right. And I would learn that and I was pretty intimidated at the beginning, you know, like I you know, I remember one a moment where We were doing Fantasy Island. Yeah. And you know how Aaron's Aaron Spilling would have all these old stars come through and appear with Ricardo. And it was great. And so ⁓ the the name is ⁓ this straw man, the the the scarecrow in Wizard of Oz. Ray Ray Bolger. Yeah. Ray Bolger. So Ray Bulger was gonna come in and he had Dental Fantasy Island, he had to loop a couple of lines. And here he comes as a very Ariudite dapper man on stage. You know, I'm I'm on stage in a big back then it was big, big screen, like a movie theater with mixers behind the glass. And he comes in and he says, Is this the place? I said, Yes, Mr. Bolger. Walk up to the mic, there's a stool or microphone. I'm sitting at a desk. And ⁓ he said here's your lines, and ⁓ that's the first line. Play it for him so he can hear it. And then he puts the The ear plug on his ear and he hears beep, beep, beep on what would be the third beep, that's when he should start talking, correct? Yeah. So he does the first line. And ⁓ stop. I said, okay, play it back, please. And he played it back, it was good. And he says, Did you like that, Chris? To me. And I'm and Yeah. And I and I'm thinking to myself, how the fuck did I how did I get here? This guy is the scarecrow. And he's asked the twenty-three year old or twenty-two-year-old, whatever I was, if it was okay for him. And this guy's got fifty years in the business. I mean, like ⁓ literally thinking, How did I get here? I mean, in a good way. And you know what, ⁓ Dave, I I tell you, I'm gonna write a book. And it's gonna be the the t the title of the book is because I had this experience my whole career. I still do. And I remember thinking in the moment, like, how did I get here? That's so great. But by the way, I will tell you something. My personal opinion is because you because you have that ⁓ that ethos is why you're there. Because it's the it's the people I think who go, Well, I totally deserve this, who who probably burn out more and burn their bridges. You know what mean? It's ⁓ there there's an ethos there. That's fantastic. Out of curiosity, I have a c I have many questions about this, but first of all, this is pre I well, this is pre-computer. Forget about pre-internet. So you know you I mean, you know Ray Bulger because people are like, hey, he he was a scarecrow, or or you know him, I mean, ⁓ was he enough of a name that people knew him back then? I can't think of anything before, you know, our experience. Yeah. No, I think it's a little bit of both. I think it's a little bit of both. You know. ⁓ and then it just occurred to me, so wait, so this is obviously film. So you're saying it's actually a full screen that they're looking at, but they're in s you're inside of a booth for sound reasons and And is it called looping because the scene is basically on a loop that's just playing over and over for the way they the way they used to do it before ⁓ ADR was they would literally get the track, make it into a loop, put a little space in there, and it would the actor would just say it over and over and over and over. Wow. That's that's ⁓ and then ADR really kind of changed the whole Yeah. Until until twenty two year old Chris Chulak said, We got it, we're good, let's move on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's amazing. That's cool. ⁓ which ⁓ who who who came in there that totally intimidated you? a c a couple ⁓ until I got to know her because she was doing was Angie Dickinson. And when and I and when I came in down and sat at the desk and I was gonna be the guy calling sync, as they say, she says, Chris, you look handsome sitting there. Man, I must have turned those shade of red, man. I and then and then probably Natalie Wood. ⁓ wow notice that they're women. Yeah, no, no, I I get it. I totally get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓ that's really cool. But that that must have been really cool to sit there and see these people who were, you know, huge on the screen just standing in front of you doing their thing and and Yeah, no. It was cool. It's funny because you were saying Fantasy Island about people you know, the actors who sort of like had had the careers and whatever. I always used to think that like they'd go on the love boat and do the episode and then it would pull up and drop them off at Fantasy Island and they'd do that episode. 'Cause that's kind of what it was, right? Yeah. Yeah. Now that was the whole interch you're exactly right. Exactly right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So how long did you do that? So I did that for You know, a couple years. I mean I I moved up pretty good. You know, I I was really f you know, I was a sound editor and we went and we won an Emmy for a police story that we did and ⁓ Amazing. ⁓ yeah, I was lucky. I learned a lot and I really enjoyed it. And the people were great, all the editors, all the guys. ⁓ so that was a couple of years. So again, I lose track of time. And then and so, you know, I got to know, you know, everybody on the lot and all the producers on all these television shows and this and that. And they Columbia did a ⁓ a mini-series called From Hero Eternity, it was a remake of the movie. William Devane, William Devane, Kim Bassinger, Natalie Wood, ⁓ Will Sampson. Anyway, I worked on that as a sound editor and loop editor. ⁓ and then with shortly thereafter, I was walking to the commissary and Mr. Carl Pingator, who was the line producer of that. mini series Harv Bennett and Harris Cattleman were the executive producers. I hear Chulak and I look and it's Mr. Pingatory says, come here. He says, ⁓ we're gonna do this a regular series from Here to Eternity. It's gonna be NBC picked it up. He says, you want to be my associate producer? And I was like yeah I guess. Did you know what that meant? Yeah, well that's that's it. I said I said, ⁓ well I don't really know. Like he says, Don't worry about it. He says, you know, well, you know, social producer in those days, you know, you spent a little ⁓ you were able to go to the set to take ⁓ clips if they had to shoot an insert or do a reshoot. So so you had a little more license to go on the set. I got So he says, All right, today at five o'clock, come I'll come get you and we'll go to go meet Harve. You know, we'll talk to Harve and Harris. So I did, went to the executive building up there and walked in the office. They were already having cocktails. And ⁓ and ⁓ locked in there, they they kind of knew my face because I was around the looping stage and they, you know, would see me. Yeah. And ⁓ we never talked about the job. It's like, okay, I'll see you, you know, we're we're starting to shoot. I said, okay. So that's how that happened. So I then I became an associate producer. And you know, my and and that exposed me to more time on the set, and you know. Really kind of watching the director's work, what goes on, talking to the A Ds, what ⁓ w learn what a board is, like you know, the production board. And so that was my introduction, ⁓ which ⁓ made me ⁓ eventually a line producer. But you're still a sa you're still a sound editor and an associate producer at that point. You're just associate producer. Associate producer. And you know something? I had to take a cut in salary. ⁓ wow. I did was that was that a c was that ⁓ ever a thought, like maybe I shouldn't be doing this? No. Okay. No, I w I was at Disneyland. Yeah. All right. I love it. It sounds like it. It sounds f ⁓ so so here I I have two questions so far. First of all, one is about your career, which is did you have any thoughts of I wanna like I have a goal of getting to this? Or or or were you just sort of like I'm on a ride and I'm gonna see where it goes? Well once I got on the lot and was was, you know, working as an editor a sound editor. And by the way, I was never a picture editor. I never graduated to that. It was you know Okay. ⁓ but I learned a lot from b w working with the editors. Like why sure this this this fucking director doesn't know why why do we why do you say that, Fred? Look, he brings the guy here and then he gets it the next day. He doesn't bring him through the door and I don't I can't get around you whatever. And so I learned I learned how to tell stories through pictures. Yeah. And ⁓ but But to answer your question, ⁓ I don't think I the I got the fantasy of being wanting to be a producer and a director. Once I was a little deeper into the, you know, being an associate producer, like I said, I'd be on the set and I'd see Corey Allen, who was a director, you know, and he's crying because they're they're doing a scene about this old lady who got beat up. And and I'm thinking, shit, you know, like I was moved by that. Like Yeah. He's he's working. He's working with this woman and he's you know, he's the in it and he's crying. And and I was like, I wanna be that guy. I I wanna I wanna do that. And you know, I struggled with a little bit because, you know, I'm very shy individual. And and then, you know, I I went forced myself to take a couple of ⁓ acting lessons at the workshop at the Warner Brothers Ranch. That was very hard for me, but I wanted to understand how to talk to actors. In fact, I did I did that I did that when I was ⁓ a loop editor, because I was dealing with these actors and we would talk about stuff and I'd be like, I don't know that I quite understand what they're talking about, you know. So I I don't I don't know if you remember this, but but the summer before I directed, which was in season five, I met with you and I said, I don't know what I don't know. What like w like how do I prepare for this or whatever? And you said The best thing I can tell you is to go take acting lessons. And I took acting lessons all summer with Ivana Chubbuck. Eric Lasalle put in a call for me and I was horrible and it was terrible and one of the worst experiences of my life. But I learned more in that than than probably anywhere. And that's I didn't realize you had the same thing. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. I I thought it was I think it's really important. I mean great advice. To be honest with you, like I don't think I Other directors have and young directors like, you know, I don't know about lenses. I say, You don't have to know about lenses. Just tell the the D P and the operator what you want it to what it what it feels like to you. What does it smell like to you? They'll find the lenses and then they'll have you approve it. You don't have then but you know, then over the years you get a little bit of a knowledge and which can be dangerous, but you know, you can't worry about you don't you don't know what you don't know. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. There's one other question I have about back then, and this is just me being nostalgic and wishing I was around in that time, although I sort of felt like honey R I got a little taste of it, but I know it wasn't like you. Was there was there less of a schism between like the actors and the crew in in the sense that people everybody was eating at the commissary and they weren't they weren't the sort of royalty that they are today? Or was was there that same was there as much of a difference? Yeah, there was less of a schism. You're right. It was it was more of a f familial I I ⁓ I went f ⁓ I left Columbia, ⁓ and David Gerber left Columbia and took over MGM television. And he wanted he ⁓ and I was a associate producer at that time on Fantasy Island. And he wanted to meet with me. He would always call me kid when you know, and he wanted me to come and run run his post production. You know, he was an independent producer. Run run his post production ⁓ deal. And I said to them, I said, I don't I I'm I'm an associate producer. I I I I don't want to be the head of post production. I want to move on to become a producer. They said, Well, come on, just meet with him. So I went down to MGM and met with David Gerber, hey kid. And he he was coming out of a projection room screaming at his executives. Something about dailies that he didn't like. And Peter Chernen and Jeff Zaganski worked for him. And ⁓ you know and they've they've become you know they're were bigwigs, you eventually, ⁓ still are. ⁓ And he he sees me. Come on, kid. Going to go into shitty commissary there. It was at Laird Studios, actually. Wasn't it wasn't at MGM. ⁓ and the next thing I know, I'm driving back to ⁓ Columbia telling Seymour Freedom than the head of production. I'm gonna quit fantasy island and go work for David. They ⁓ you know David ran the studio so they knew you know and I did. And ⁓ He convinced me. But what I was gonna say was you ask about the schism. I I Gerber's office was at on the fourth floor of the Thalberg building at MGM. MGM was a great lot. And they had a great commissary there. And I remember going there, and you go in there and everybody knows everybody. You know, you just it's there was just like this cool, I don't know what the adjective is, but it's just cool. And you know, it'd be sitting there and then then On Thursdays, they would have a board of ⁓ directors meeting at the studio. I think Alan Ladd Jr. was was the president of the studio. And the people on the board would come in there and have lunch in the in the lion's den. That was kind of the executive dining part of the commissary. And here would come Kerry Grant, man. Cary Grant, you know, he's older. And I gotta tell you, Dave, he was one of the handsomest men you'll ever see. And he because he was on He was up he was off the board. And you know, the there would be this big din, ⁓ you know, like a commissary and people having fun with him. He'd come through the door. He'd he knew everybody would walk, and man, that thing would just quiet, quiet. So cool. ⁓ that's so cool. So there it was, you know, it was a whole different vibe. There was a reverence and a respect. That's yeah. Yeah. That's that's really cool. ⁓ b so back in the day on TV, ⁓ you know, w w obviously when I worked with you, by the time I was working with you, we got we got you know, dailies on VHS and now we have these horrible dailies online that never seem to work and whatever, but I won't go into that. Did were there were there film dailies? I mean for movies there were, but were there film dailies for TV? ⁓ when I was doing it absolutely. You you it was on six one thousand foot reels, picture and track. I used to have to carry them carry them up the stairs to the projection room, you know. Put them in the rack for the projectionist and you know, then I'd kinda I'd look through the ports and see all the silhouetted heads of all these executives watching dailies. And I I would say at the very beginning, when I started, I said, someday I want to be in that room. And I eventually it was. So ⁓ so so would the director come in before before the day's shooting and watch dailies, or would you the director just get a report back? Some of ⁓ would show up and ⁓ see Or, you know, Har Bennett would send me down to the set and go tell ⁓ Bernie Kowalski you did a great job, you know, the director. So I'd I'd be like the messenger boy, you know. So yeah. That's so cool. That's that's great. So so had so ⁓ wha what was the what was the jump from associate producer into producing and directing? Was there a a linear path for that? ⁓ Yeah, I'm trying to think what the well Gerber Gerber gave me a credit as an associate producer on a show and then he sold another show, short lived show, and he he s he gave me the ⁓ producer credit. And I he was my mentor. I that guy as crazy as crazy as he was, man, I loved him and he was just a real solid dude. And that's very cool. That's that's amazing. Rough. He was very rough. ⁓ we used to probably he speaks Gerberese because he's from New York and anyway, he he's the one that gave me my first credit. I I think that it was, yeah. As a producer. As a producer. Yeah. On on a show called Jack and Mike, which we shot in Chicago. ⁓ huh. So very cool. And so so then then I mean, at that point had you set you'd set yourself sights on directing, I'm assuming. Like that was the goal. Yes, because I remember being an associate producer, I'd see like the crews go out in the morning, you know, the van go out 'cause they were going scouting or even going on location. And I used to say I used to say to myself, I want to be the guy sitting in the front seat. Front seat. Nice. That's the guy that I want to be. So how did how did that ⁓ how did that happen? ⁓ well I always knew, you know, like I mean, I shot a lot of second units and inserts and you know, especially like be being in Chicago. Where there wasn't a studio hovering, so ⁓ the director would say, I can't shoot, can you go shoot a car by? or you know. So I did a lot of that. Cool. And ⁓ and even as an associate producer, little things, you know. And ⁓ I would be on the I would be producing these shows. They'd be short lived, you know, one year, ten episodes, whatever. And you know, you couldn't we couldn't hook on. And in my mind it's like, I wanna be on a show that I'm the producer on and if it goes another year, I'm gonna tell ⁓ that I wanna direct one. And that's what happened. I I was the I was ⁓ working for Warner Brothers and ⁓ there was a show called what the hell ⁓ Homefront and it was like a period piece. ⁓ Yeah. Remember Home Front? I don't know if you know I remember it. And also you you got nominated for an Emmy for that or two Emmys or something like that. No, I don't no, I don't ⁓ well maybe, you know, maybe I don't know. I didn't even know. But but anyway, I I we we went for a year and then they picked us up. ABC picked up the show for a second year. And I told I told them, ⁓ David Jacobs and ⁓ who's the executive producer and the t the husband and wife Bernie and Lynn, who wrote it, wrote the pilot and supervised the writing. I said, I want to direct one. Yeah. And ⁓ they didn't have a problem with that and I did. And I directed how what how'd that go? What what what was ⁓ I mean, ⁓ what was that like and what was the hardest part it that you didn't realize would be hard? I'll tell you what what happened was I can't remember his name. Anyway, I'm I prepped the show. You know, I already knew the A D's, we worked together, whatever. Sure. Kyle Ch Kyle Chandler was in that in that show. I don't know if you remember Kyle Chandler. Okay. Yeah, sure. So I So I'm gonna I'm supposed to have my first day of shooting and we're gonna shoot on the set, one of our sets at at ⁓ Warner Brothers, the house. And ⁓ I get a call that night saying Kyle was fucking around on the set and fell through the window and he cut his he cut his head right above his eyebrow. He got ten stitches or whatever it was. Well, it comes to directing, yeah. Okay. So I had to I had to sh I I could only shoot him from one side. You know, all these plans I had about like I'm gonna walk through here and he's gonna come in there, talk to his mom, and blah. Well, so my my my first day and he was in everything and they wouldn't they wouldn't shut down. And ⁓ I had to, you know, vamp the whole day in terms of my my angles and my little notes that I made and and it came out fine. Yeah. And and ⁓ I balled him out and and he was he was a great guy. Kyle Kyle's a great guy. Great kid. He's not a kid anymore, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A great actor, too. So the episode came came out and ⁓ the title of the first episode I had my name on was c was called Crazy in Love. Okay. And ⁓ and it came out pretty good. And ⁓ that's great. Well what what was the what was the what was the hardest part for you? Because I gotta think you you editing you got down. You know your coverage you need, you know it sounds like I mean, ⁓ working with actors is never easy, but it sounds like you sort of covered that from From taking some lessons and what like what was the hard what was the toughest thing ⁓ for you v of directing, starting to direct or or wasn't there? It wasn't it wasn't that tough. That's great. I mean I I could make up something, but I you know, I mean no, but it well but it also occurs to me that that you were you were a producer on the show, so you've got that group of people who were like, you know, we're gonna we're gonna make sure you succeed and and and and ⁓ y you know, everybody wants you to succeed and and ⁓ I just I mean that's fantastic. That's the way it should be. It isn't always that way, but ⁓ that that's great. And then And then ⁓ after that, ⁓ I got a call from Bob Rosenbaum, who was the head of production. ⁓ the show the show didn't go us ⁓ third year, it was done. We finished that. And then I get a call from Bob Rosenbaum and said, Hey crew, and I and by the way, Les Moonvest was the president of Warner Brothers then. Yeah. He had just he had just took over the job and he signed me to an overall deal. A non writing producer. So wait, well tell me what what does an overall deal mean exactly? ⁓ like he paid me a retain retainer. Like ⁓ yeah, we'll find something for you. Yeah, exactly. Regardless. We're just gonna pay you this much money a year. You guarantee this for a year. Good Lord. That's fantastic. So yeah. Pretty fantastic. so They called me and they said, Hey, ⁓ you they inherited all these, you know, the Lorem Loramar became Warner Brothers was Warner Brothers. Loramar came in, Les Moonvest took over, and a lot of the executives of Warner Brothers left. You know, it was like a merging of two studios. Okay. So I gonna call he says, ⁓ hey Chris, he says, ⁓ there's ⁓ there's a show that ⁓ we got from Amblin, Michael Crichton wrote called EW. And they're they're gonna make it and this guy, ⁓ this c writer John Wells is gonna ⁓ you know rewrite the script. It's an old script, rewrite it and update it. Why don't you go or send you the script and you go you go meet, we want you to be the line producer on it, you know? Wait, it was called the EW? Yes. Which re he wrote it, I think I think he wrote it in nineteen seventy-four or seventy-five, and they they threw it in a drawer. What does EW mean? ⁓ Emergency ward. Rod Holcomb. He ⁓ he he took a liking to me. I mean, ⁓ he would talk to me if he see me riding my bike or in the golf cart and he, you know, big six foot four guy. ⁓ Hu yeah. Fantastic. He was the ⁓ associate producer at what the time that I kind of met him on on ⁓ Wonder Woman, the Linda Carter version of he says, Hey Chris, you ever wanna you ever wanna come down to the set? ⁓ you can come to the set, man. It's great. Now now we're we're we're Rod so Rod sounds like he he had he he was already established. Was John an established name at that point? ⁓ I think as a writer he you know, he was he was ⁓ he wasn't a s he was ⁓ I don't know if you call him. He was a writer on China Beach. On China Beach, that's right. And that's where that's where he and that's where he knew ⁓ Rod from. Okay, gotcha. Yeah. And China Beach is one of the best pilots I've ever saw. I remember watching it on TV that Rod directed. It was pretty powerful. ⁓ I'll have to watch it. I don't think I ever saw that. He rod was such a great director. He was a great director. Great guy. ⁓ like a big bear. Six foot four. I'm gonna I'm gonna interrupt to tell you my Rod Holcomb story quick. Sure. Because I think you'll like this. I think I've shared this before, but so season five, ⁓ it came out, you know, the list of directors would come out and ⁓ the the second half or whatever came out and he was directing that day and it came out and my name was on it for episode whatever I did, nineteen or or whatever it was. And he comes over and he puts his hand around me and he said, You're you're directing and he said, Yeah, I said, Why why didn't you tell me? I said, Well, I didn't know if it was gonna happen and I didn't, you know, I feel a little weird about it, whatever. And he goes, ⁓ my gosh, I'm so happy. He gives me a huge, huge hug, which I'm six four, but when Rod hugs you, you you kind of disappear into the he just was he's a massive individual. But he says, ⁓ he said, Listen, ⁓ a couple days from now I got a scene with Eric LaSalle and this other woman and ⁓ I you're directing it. And I said, What do you mean? I said he said, I'm gonna ask Eric, make sure it's okay and whatever. I'll be here, but you're gonna direct it. I and I said, ⁓ and he goes, No, we're gonna get you in the we're gonna get you in the seat and you're gonna do it and it's gonna be fine. I said, well, okay, but like, should we talk about it? He goes, No, you read it, you know what you're doing. ⁓ you tell me how to we'll that's what we'll do. And and and sure enough, that's what he did. And I would look over at him and he goes, Don't look at me, you're the director. Well, are you happy with that? And I Yeah, I I think I'm happy with that. Are you and I went over to him quiet I I went over quietly and I said, I said, Listen, you gotta tell me if I'm I mean, you gotta tell me if I'm not giving you what you need or I I don't know what I mean, I don't know what you want and whatever. And he goes, Dave. I'd be telling you if you're doing anything that's getting into trouble. You're doing a great job. Keep going. Get in there with your he was it was so amazing of him, like so ⁓ magnanimo it was just such a wonderful guy. ⁓ That sound that sounds like Rod. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so so so you walk in and these guys are there and they're doing EW. Yeah, you were doing E and John, you know, John's at the dryer Ace board and he's writing, you know, 'cause he had to rewrite the whole okay updated and changed stuff and and Rod was in there with him. So we sit down and we talk and they said, Did you read the script? Yeah, you think it's pretty good or you know, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. We're gonna change this, we're gonna change that, but yeah, it's gonna basically be. And so John says to me, ⁓ you have any ideas of where you know, and the pilot all it was all in the ER. I mean, you have any ⁓ idea ideas for a location where we could shoot this? And I said, Yeah, I said I do, actually. I said, the old Linda Vista hospital in East LA. I just shot there, ⁓ you know, as a line producer, I I just shot there on home front. 'Cause it was supposed to be a peri period ⁓ hospital, right? Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So we talked a little bit about this. And I think I asked him what the budget was or whate whatever we're talking and and just kind of yucking it up and and ⁓ I went I went back to my office and I called Bob Rosenbaum and I said, Hey, I met the, you know, I know Rod. I said, You you don't need me on this show. As a producer. I said, the whole thing's shot in a hospital. I'll be tits on a book. Rod Holcomb, who's a producer in his own right, is directing the thing. He's a force. I said, I I'm not, you know, like, what am I gonna do? What am I doing? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So he says, Well, you know, they hemped on. And then they called me back and he said, said, you know, Chris, you're right. He says, We're just gonna hire a good production manager, let the production manager kind of move the strips around and ⁓ you're you're right. He said, okay, great. So I says good. And about three or four days later, he calls me and he says, Hey, he says, you seem to like this guy John Wells pretty good. ABC just picked up ⁓ the pilot that he co wrote with Win Wendy Goldman. It's kind of a dramedy. ⁓ he said ⁓ we want to shoot it non union. We want to shoot it in Portland, Oregon. And I'm like, ⁓ fuck. So all right. So he says, go back and talk to John and ⁓ you guys see what's going on. So I did, went back and talked to him and read the script, talked to him. ⁓ so the pilot was kind of a dramedy, right? And so Peter Rieger was in it, Jane Curtin, William William H. Macy. ⁓ my gosh, who was probably 20 at that point or something like that. Yeah, young dude. And a guy named Rob Thompson was gonna direct it. Anyway, long story short, I went to Portland, I prepped it. ⁓ John would fly up there. Well, they were shooting E R or EW down here, and ⁓ he would come up and visit the set and ⁓ he'd bring me a cassette of dailies, you know, Rod's dailies, you know. Yeah. And and ⁓ anyway, we shot the pilot and We were done, edited it, everything. J John was kind of done with the ER and ⁓ and I was gonna go to Hawaii, take a v you know, ⁓ vacation. Yeah and the the n with my family and my two daughters. And and I got a call the morning before we were leaving, or the night before we were leaving, and it's John. And he says, Hey Chris, they didn't they didn't pick up mystery dance, didn't get picked up. I said, okay, well, you know, he says nice working with you, man. I really appreciate it. ⁓ well, see you on the lot. Yeah. So I go to Hawaii and I think two days after I was in Hawaii, I no cell phones. I don't know how, but I got a message. Yeah. Paul John Wells. I was renting a house. And I call him and he says, Hey Chris, he says, ⁓ They picked up ⁓ ER, call ER now. He says, ⁓ they don't they picked it up for nine episodes. We're gonna need a real producer to produce it. He says, we'll build a set, we'll build a set. He says, but NBC doesn't really like it. He says, so we'll build a set. Let's have some fun. And, you know, and it'll be nine and out. But why don't you come up? I said, okay. That that's a quote. That's that really happened over the phone. I said, Yeah. I said, Can you s can you send me the the send me a cop cassette of the the whole pilot? And he says, Yes, they did. So I w looked at it and got back and we took over stage eleven and began the work of hiring a production designer and cameraman. Yeah. With ⁓ what's it? Tom Del Ruth started it, but he didn't he he was gone. He was there for an episode basically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ And that's how that's how it was. Well, so so ⁓ the the thing that I don't understand is ER was like one of I mean, ⁓ the the story that I always heard was that ER when they put it out and ⁓ when they when they aired the pilot is that it was just in a couple of markets and during the commercial breaks people were calling stations because friends had called them saying you should watch this and It just exploded, right? Is is that is that apocryphal or is that real yeah, I think you know, I don't know I don't know that part of the story. I remember it the pilot premiered on against Monday night football. Okay. And then they they re ran it on the following Thursday. But against Monday night football, I got a thirty-two share. Which is huge. And and just can you explain to thirty-two share means Theoretically thirty-two million households are watching. Well, pretty close. And shares. Ratings, ⁓ how many televisions in America whose t has TVs that were on were watching that? Yes. And then the share of that share of that audience. So for people but for people who don't know, from what I understood, before ER, a hit was considered like maybe a nine share or a ten share, and and things didn't really go bigger than that unless there was some big like Super Bowl thing, right? Well a a hit would be like a seventeen or twenty share. Well okay it's a little higher than I thought. It's a little higher but this is through but this is through the roof. This is in the thirty share, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when I was there, I remember it never dipped below a forty share. I mean remember every it was a forty share and plus ⁓ or the ratings maybe. When I started when I got the show set up, you know, the production part of it, I directed episode seventeen, you know, because it just took 'Cause I had we had to keep and we were under pressure for doing the show on time and on budget and you know, totally on budget. They were really strict because it was a nine a nine order. Nobody thought, you know, it could and they wouldn't let us spend any money. Shit, I was I was like, Well, should we recycle the latex gloves? 'Cause you know you know, you guys are using too you're using too much blood. We can't afford to buy it by the gallon, you know, whatever. Even even though it was that big of a hit, they were still this is before we aired. Before that. ⁓ okay, I'm sorry. I gotcha. Okay. Yeah, remember we gotta shoot for five dollars. That's right. That's right. I forgot that. So they don't know. But well the question that I have is how did they get it so wrong? Because they were thinking it was gonna be a dog and it turned out to be this massive hit. It just happened. Chicago Hope was supposed Chicago Hope was supposed to be the the hit. This was just ⁓ blood and guts, you know, whatever. You know? Yeah. And it wow it it it It flipped television. It was it was a it was a g silver bullet, man. It was it didn't take that long. When I when I directed the first episode that year that I directed, it was episode 17, I remember the number. It got a forty share. Nobody ever got a forty share. That's insane. That's absolutely amazing. And you have to say, and you know, the second year, episode seven, was the Hell in High Water episode. Yeah. That got a forty five share. One of the best pieces of television ever made. ⁓ hands down. Just unbelievable. Now what now I I'm gonna go back to something, but while we're on that, did you did you read that and realize that it was something special? Or was it a process that that that turned it into something? I would say that I read it and and was like it was the first time we were, you know, it was a different show. We were outside the hospital with George saving that kid, and it was just different. And and I I you remember thinking like I wanna how I just gotta make this real and just don't worry about a different rhythm. You know, like so I mean that that that would be the difference. I just didn't want to screw it up. ⁓ you you didn't anybody who hasn't seen Hell in High Water, you should watch it. It it holds up and it's fantastic. ⁓ backing up a little bit, so so ⁓ you mentioned that there there was a there was a D P operator team that sort of started the show in And lasted an episode or two and then there were some changes made and then Guy B comes in. ⁓ Yeah. I I I was thinking I gotta I gotta I gotta bring in a new steady cam operator because you know Steady Cam became an integral part of it. If you know if you look at ⁓ Rod's pilot, he didn't use the you know, that was an ad that was ⁓ it it evolved. How do you do how do you do ⁓ ten pages a day? Well, you don't you just gotta keep them talking and shoot a warner. And you the some Some people say that necessity is the mother of invention. I say necessity is just a mother. And that's how that's how, you know, that's how it happened. Yeah. That's ⁓ that's that's fantastic. But so Guy told me that the reason that he got the job was because you saw a tape where he walked underneath a ladder in a shot. Do you remember this? It's that's true. Did you share that? Did you share that? Yeah. I I was ⁓ looking at tapes that was I was being sent, you know, people ⁓ auditioning on tape. And I remember seeing his tape and some of the a lot of the shots he did, but he did this, I don't know, and I remember looking at him and I'm thinking, this guy's a little skinny guy. What you know and he just did this thing through a ladder with the with the with the steady cam. And you know, I don't have to tell you, it was film in the magazine. That shit was heavy, man. Yeah, you probably have ⁓ some compression discs because of that. I got a couple I can show you some x-rays of, yep. ⁓ sure. and ⁓ so I I talked to him and I liked his personality and he was amazing. That dude was amazing. He was like a guy g he was incredible. Yeah. He was a ballerino with a device stuck to him. Now now when he c when he came in, was it just right off the bat? Well, I I mean no wasn't your episode, but you were obviously around. Was it right off the bat that he just stepped in and took the ball and sort of pushed it farther? Or was it was it a directory? No, it it was a little bit of an evolution. Like he he got the feel of it and he learned the set and and and then I think s you know, direct directors kind of thought, Wow, I could really kind of push the envelope here with this this guy and ⁓ yeah. And I think, you know, it just kind of found itself. Yeah. I mean, just ⁓ the the the stuff that he did was groundbreaking and and and what was amazing to me watching it as as a viewer at home was you know, we'd never seen Steady Cam on television like that before. Like occasionally in a movie you'd get something, but but that was a big deal. And this was just and then ⁓ I don't know if you know this, but but ⁓ I so the way I met Guy was the AOL used to have a Steady Cam chat room. Right I And I was on there and I saw like, you know, B vision at AOL dot com or something like that. I'm like, I wonder if this is him. And I emailed I said or texted him, whatever you called it. You IM'd him, I don't know. And I said, Are you are you guy B, you know, ER? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I ⁓ man, just ⁓ you don't know me and blah, blah, blah. But ⁓ the stuff you're doing, I just can't even I can't even comprehend it. It's it's incredible. And then I I happen to be eating red v or Twizzlers. And and I I texted him something about how I was sitting there eating Twizzlers after watching ER and and and Redvine sucked and something or other funny. And he thought it was funny. And he said, Hey, you should come down, you should come down to ER sometime and come visit the set. And I'm What like on the on the lot? You're kidding me? And ⁓ and he says, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll I'll leave a I'll leave a password and blah blah. And we figured out a time. And I remember Charles Papert and I went by, and you know, this is pre I mean, the internet existed, but it was pre what we have now. And I go in there and You know, we're like, hey, we're here. She guy be. And they took us in over by the director's monitor. We're standing there. And this little guy with long hair and a and a head, headband and and rock and roll pants. Hey man, how you doing? It's good to be and whatever. He's like, ⁓ okay, I'll hang out here. I gotta go do a little shot and walks away. And he goes he puts a steady cam on and we're watching the monitor. And you you remember it used to like come in and go out. It was terrible. And you saw half it. But it was just the most unbelievable thing we'd ever seen. I mean both of our jaws were open and and then he comes back and he's like so how's it going? Like nothing had happened. You know, it was he was just he is was really unbelievable. Unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. And and so so what did it become when you were directing with him? So so it sounds like you didn't direct until seventeen on the first right first season? So it sounds like you I directed ⁓ in Chicago, you know, we made four trips a year to Chicago. That's right. So we and we never shut down here. We would shuttle the actors back and forth. So I sh I was shooting, you know, Chicago scenes, exteriors. Yeah. And ⁓ and then and then I felt comfortable with, you know, we got the pickup for the backdine, and then I told John and I said, just pencil me in and I said, Okay. Yeah. So so you were that's what ⁓ that's what I was getting to is you were sort of watching from the sidelines the evolution of how they were shooting the show and what he was capable of and how they were pushing it and pushing it and et cetera, et cetera. Did that start to change the way that you were starting to see the scripts that you were that that you know, that you were wh when you were directing? I mean, did you start seeing that in a whole different light? I don't know. I mean the scripts got shorter because you know we I mean sc sorry, the scripts got longer because we had so it happen happened so fast. ⁓ I don't know. Again, I think it's just the evolution. I mean we knew the energy was good. We we had a practice of everybody coming to dailies, we watched them together. Everybody. ⁓ really? ⁓ in ⁓ little conference room and and And that's something that I brought to it, like because I was always taught by Gerber, you come and watch dailies, you gotta know what's going on. So I said to John is when you say when you say everyone, you mean you mean the director and the editor and the producers and and the writer and even a couple of the actors if they wanted to, you know? Really? Yeah. Wow. That's fantastic. I mean that it eventually fell it fell off a little bit, but ⁓ Yeah, of course. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah, well, and also like then everybody's at a certain point everybody starts getting their video cassettes and they say, No, I'll watch it at home, but whatever. I mean one of the things that that when I showed up blew me away was how much and and this is all guy and you guys obviously was sort of how much freedom you gave the operator to be involved in the storytelling. Well that's and you're absolutely right. That's what I always preached even before I started director. It's like you you you gotta if you're gonna operate, you gotta tell a story. You gotta be part of the you gotta You gotta be an actor in the scene. You know, and and that and Guy did that really well. And the actors are very comfortable with him. And ⁓ he just you didn't they I would talk to him, they say, I didn't even know he was there. You know, like you know, because he just knew he knew how to get in and out. And you know, we just you know, we do these trauma scenes and every director, you know, get a little intimidated. And I just was like, just shoot it like a set it up, tell the docs, the technical advisor, set it up and you know, tell Guy B, just it's a documentary. Shoot shoot a documentary. Yeah. It was ⁓ that was one of the most special experiences. I mean, it was it was the highlight of my career, there's no question about it. I there have but other been other peaks here and there, but as an overall thing. And and I'll tell you, ⁓ I hope you don't mind me saying, one of the people that I learned so much from was we was you. And and working with you as a director, I remember very specifically you told me once, ⁓ you told me once that ⁓ to always find you another way into the scene. Right and I said, I said, what do you what do you mean? And you said, well, you know, you're gonna shoot the master. And then while you're shooting the master, be thinking of of the coverage and come off of something or come through something. Cause I never know when I'm gonna have to upcut a scene or never know whenever. And I and that's something I've taken to this day of like trying to find those things. You usually I'm not an ER. So I I ask, you know, do you want this or whatever? But I remember you were always so excited when we would just find those moments. And it was just such a pleasure. It's such an absolute pleasure. It's ⁓ spontaneity. You know, it's it's ⁓ that's when the magic happens, actually. You know, that's when you just go, Wow, I didn't expect that. Jesus. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And and the other thing that I I remember from that that I sort of miss, you know, nowadays, and you know this, you you're looking at a better monitor than I am. Yes. You've got a better picture than I do. And and but it used to be that we were running around and especially when we're doing the huge things and you guys were off the set or whatever. You know, your monitor'd come in and come out and come or whatever. And it wasn't what is what it was. And you guys would always come up to me. How what'd you think? How how was it? How we how'd we do? You know, and and there was actual trust in what we thought, ⁓ much more so I think. ⁓ not by not not denigrating anyone there. But the other thing I'll tell you that that you taught me that ⁓ has stayed with me to this day was that ⁓ you I think it was I'm assuming I don't remember exactly, but I'm assuming that it was before I directed. at some point. But you told me to watch other directors and watch the mistakes that they made. And I said, really? And you said, yeah, because you'll you'll see a lot more mistakes than you were successes, because successes you can't always tell in the moment. And you'll and you'll learn not to do that. Right. And I thought that's that's brilliant. It's true. It's true. Absolutely amazing. Yeah. That's what that's what I would do. Just watch You know, and being a line producer, I could observe that. I s ⁓ I saw that a lot, even before I started directing a lot. Like you can you can see it. Yeah. If you and if what I what I got what I got to realize was and there were sometimes with with some directors, not many of them, but sometimes where you could sort of see the train wreck coming down the road a long time before it came. And you're trying to steer it away and you're trying to be kind and whatever, but it does sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work. ⁓ what it w I mean ER ER was a bigger I mean, I think it's probably the biggest hit on television. ⁓ you know, I don't know that you can compare it to things now. It's a totally different ⁓ the the metric is all different. But back then it was basically the biggest thing. What do you think it was that made it special? Well, I think I think as intimate as we got in kind of some of those action sequences when by action I mean trauma sequences and and you know, you it was really very ⁓ intimate, you know, I and I think people and put we put their nose in it, you know, and they were like, Wow, I've never seen anything like this and some of it, you know, it's like a car wreck, you know, you can't take your eyes off of it, you know, s sometimes and it's yeah. I think that that had a lot to do with it. And just the rhythm of it. And it was just honest. There was no opera. You know, it was just interesting people with interesting jobs dealing with the public and how it affects them and their peers and each other. And and ⁓ the stories weren't huge stories, but they they meant something, you know. I used to tell ⁓ The actors, like the guest actors, you know, like you're in the ER. A guest star, whatever. And ⁓ for you it's the most dramatic day of your life being in an ER. And for them, it's thir it's Thursday for them, it's Thursday. That's great. ⁓ that's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's that's dead on. Do you do you ⁓ do you remember would guest I don't remember this, but would guest stars come in and be intimidated by it? Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, when you're doing a f seven page one or and they have the last they have the last line in the scene. The worst thing in the world. That's the worst thing in the world. And George Clooney's looking at you like, Really? Yeah. We just did all that. Yeah. The what but I I will tell you, I remember this didn't happen much, but I remember once or twice a a guest actor coming in and maybe being a little surly with the crew or or or not being the nicest person or whatever. And they got walked outside by number one or number two or whoever was was ⁓ and and they came back in a couple minutes later and ⁓ I'm so sorry I didn't sleep well last night. I apologize if we took that wrong. Like it was there was no we ⁓ one of the th it was one of the few places that I've ever been where we were such a tight knit family and it was across the board. It was it was such a wonderful place to be. And also I was twenty five to to twenty twenty eight or twenty six to twenty nine or whatever. So Like the place where I was in my career, it was just it was an amazing experience all the way around. Yeah, we were lucky to have Tony and ⁓ George. ⁓ you know, they were the two leaders and ⁓ they re realized, you know, when the show was a hit that, you know, it could go south with the egos, right? And Joe John John Wells said something really which I think was he said, We ha our cast is a self cleaning oven. They don't they don't l allow things to fester. If they got an internal problem, they deal with them. ⁓ and they they took charge. I mean, you know, as a group. As a group. And that was that was Tony and George. Did that just happen or was that by the the was that something they discussed and said this is how we want it to be? I I think a little bit of both. Again, you know, like we had discussions like that and you know, got to know each other and ⁓ yeah, those guys are pretty open. You know, they yeah. They were good. And they were perfect. Fantastic. Yeah. I mean ⁓ Tony Tony was Tony was gonna be a movie star and George had seven failed pilots. So he he was pretty well experienced, right? Including one called emergency, I think, actually. ⁓ as I recall. But ⁓ I I'll tell you it dates it a little bit, but I remember very specifically George coming in and going, ⁓ get the VCR out here, everybody stop. You gotta see this, you gotta see this. And we're like what? And he goes, I'm not gonna say anything, you just gotta put and he puts it in. And it's the video cassette of ⁓ Jesus versus Santa Claus that they sent out as the Christmas card to everybody. And and it's funny because I try to explain to people now, it's like now there's irreverent animation, but there wasn't anything I mean, like that was on a level. And I just remember everybody watching it going, I don't understand what is this. It was and and as soon as it was over, it was like, Play it again, play it again. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And actually the other the other thing I remember very well is is George coming in probably around Christmas time and he's You guys aren't gonna believe what Warner Brothers just gave me. And we're like, What? And we're like, He goes, it's this is this thing and and the tray opens and you put a C D in it and you can watch a movie, but you can like you can like pop around from scene to scene just with a click of a button. We're like, You can't do that. That's bullshit. He's like, No, seriously, it's called like a DVC or I don't know what it but I got like two of them and it's amazing. Right? But yeah. Those are good times. I also the other thing I think about is like I don't think it I don't think it would have been the same place if we had had iPhones. No, I I think you're you're right. Right. Like it's just that's that's gone. That that's sort of like nope, we're we're all, you know, maybe someone's doing a crossword or something like that, but otherwise we're just talking to each other and surgerooping things up and and and having a good time, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. Yeah. Amazing. So so you you Well, ⁓ during that you started ⁓ you started Third Watch in New York, ⁓ which you directed you directed the pilot for, right? Yeah, yeah. ⁓ tell me about directing a pilot. ⁓ 'cause I'm I it's gotta be a whole different world than just jumping in and directing a train that's our you know, ⁓ a train that's already. Yeah, no, no, it is. It is. It's exciting because you're you're you're you're pounding the nails ⁓ for the foundation. And and ⁓ You know, you're very involved in casting and ⁓ as a director and ⁓ you're hiring a crew, you're in a city. It's it's exciting as hell. And is it a different skill set because it's a pilot? No, I don't think so. You have more time. I don't think it's a skill set. I mean, I think some people are better at it than others, you know. They have a little longer longer outlook or vision. But I don't I don't necessarily say it's Yeah. I I I think it's kind of it's the same process. It's a craft. It's like you know, tell you you tell the best story you can tell. And you decide whose point of view you want to tell it from or what kind of a point of view you want to give it. And ⁓ yeah, at least on Third Watch it was a lot of fun too, 'cause we we ⁓ had real firemen and real cops as part of the part of the deal. And I was gonna ask you about that because I was out there, I I operated for a little bit and then then you were gracious enough to give me an episode to direct, so I was there for that. And like I mean, it was did you take that from ER? 'Cause on ER we had the real nurses, right? Who who helped with the traumas and and and were they were they all into it from the start just because it was of what it was? I don't know if they were all into it at the start. They eventually love you know it became a family. In fact, to me, it was the precursor to the way I did Southland. And they were all real cops, all real gangsters. Really? ⁓ yeah. Yeah. We we didn't know that. We we would do scenes where ⁓ we'd be on the set in Echo Park or whatever, and there's a scene where the cu cops are arresting these cholos or whatever, and they come to the set and Cop would Hey, didn't I arrest you last month, man? Yeah. Yes, ⁓ you did. I say ⁓ were they were they were they actors as well? Or they were just people who were real gangsters who you said. No, it was it was the look. They were on set, and then we gave him lines. I gave ⁓ Richard Cabral, who's an actor now and had his own man show. Yep. I gave him his first line, and he was I could hear him breathing through the headphone. And now he's a very cool dude, man. And he got out of the whole. Gang thing and ⁓ yeah, no, it's good. It's good. That's amazing. But but ⁓ but ⁓ on on Third Watch, yeah, they ⁓ they c they came to love us because we were do doing the right thing and try to portray cops and the firemen and paramedics real and you know was was that sort of a trust thing that was built over time? Like at first it's like I don't know about this, and then once they started to see it on the air and see that you were being you're being reverent of what they're doing, I guess is the world. Yeah, and you know. New Yorkers are smart, man. They they could smell phony a mile away. So no, we we you know, it was it was really wonderful and they were all into it. And and was it a different experience shooting in New York because you're not in Warner Brothers with ⁓ you know, with mom and dad around sort of in your you're kinda your own satellite? Yeah, it was it was pretty raw. I mean, you know, yeah. And but again, it it it lent itself to the the show. ⁓ because it was real. It was all real. We were going down Fifth Avenue, man, and we were going here, we were going there. And and ⁓ Yeah. Right? So the thing the thing that I liked about shooting there, which I it was the first time I'd ever shot in New York, it it was just so different than LA because LA it's like there's a reverence for sort of like peop you know, filming and whatever. In New York people are like, I don't really care. Yeah, I gotta get the work, get the hell out of my way. I think that's that's that's well put. That's well put. There is no reference. Well, but it's it's Dustin Hoffman. I'm walking here. I'm walking here. I mean it's that's a hundred percent what it was. And they just didn't give a crap. The other thing that I really liked about ⁓ coming over to Third Watch was just the the the characters in your in your in your crew. You know, they were just consummate New Yorkers and such great people. And and interestingly, and I don't know if this comes from you or not, but it reminded me very much of like the family atmosphere on ER where everybody took care of each other and everybody was together. So I gotta assume some of that leaks in, right? Yeah, absolutely. I just I I would always say to the crew on a lot of levels, again, being a producer and being in the trenches with them, own it. This is your show. Own it. The star of the show is the show. So Guy B Guy B told me that when I interviewed him. He said, Chris Chulak always used to say this and I never I had never heard that. And I said, That is the most brilliant piece of advice and directing, whatever you want to call it. It's fantastic because everything else falls away, right? It's just like nope. It's what's going on screen and the story we're telling. And that's that's what's important. I love that. I think that's fantastic. It's funny because until you said it and started to say it, I had forgotten you said that 'cause I would have asked you about it, but You brought it up naturally. So so you went on to do Southland, which was just Southland's just it's a great another great show. ⁓ and it's just it's sort of like controlled chaos. Exactly. In a way. Yeah. And I mean Jimmy Muro shot a lot of that, right? Yeah, Jimmy Muro shot the pilot for me. I didn't know Jimmy. I didn't know him. I mean Unbel another unbelievable. The fact that you ran into Guy B and Jimmy Muro in one career. ⁓ yeah. Jimmy Jimmy's amazing. And and I was told that he would just sort of grab the camera and run around with it, which wouldn't surprise me at all because that's who he is. It eventually, yeah, that kind of evolved a little bit, but ⁓ yeah. Yeah. That's ⁓ that's amazing. Was it was it a good show, a fun show to shoot? ⁓ yeah. We were w we were we weren't on a lot. We we had ⁓ You know what Homeboys Inc. is downtown, the Sure. Yeah. The bake the bakery. R ⁓ right. Well, we used a lot of those guys, gangsters that were in that program. That's a but we had a park we had a parking lot right there in Chinatown, which was our base permanent base camp. So nobody you didn't go to a studio. You went to this base camp. All the trailers were there for the actors. You get in the get in and go to the location. And a lot didn't come back till the day was over. Everything was on location. We didn't build any sets. Everything was practical. ⁓ Yeah. It was exciting. It's it sounds to me like as we're talking about this that you sort of excel and enjoy not having sort of preconceived things that you have to be, you know, you have to ⁓ be a part of as far as the studio and whatever, and just having the freedom to go, no, this works better or that where let's just do this and let's just do that. That's right. Spontaneity. I g I guess like you said, ⁓ the star of the show is the show. So if it works, it works. Right. And the show was, you know, the my idea for the show, the South End one's my conceit. We were, we knew that it was the last year of ER. And I remember sitting on ⁓ John Well's front porch, you know, he was having a Christmas party, and ER was gonna go away. He says, So what do you want to do? I said, I don't know. He said, ⁓ maybe it's time we do that. police show you want to do in Los Angeles. Because I I would always think like, what happened to police story? Why we we go to Chicago, we go to New York, we do all these cop shows. What about Los Angeles? My it's my town. And ⁓ I said, yeah. I said, I want to do a version of cops. That's how I want to tell the story. You know, okay. And and audience doesn't go in the bad guys' lair until the cops bring us in there. I don't want these are first responders. They don't know what's in there. I don't want the audience to know what's in there. Scoring and it was just a way of that and I think that gave the show a personality that nobody really had seen before. I mean, I would watch an episode of Cops, and I know that they got a sound guy and a cameraman in the back and they're on a chase, and then, you know, the the cop would get out to chase the guy and they'd get out and you know, I could hear the lavalier mic on ⁓ the cop, his heart's beating fast, and you couldn't even hear the bad guy, you know, like and I'm like, that's what I wanna do. It's so raw. I don't I don't I don't have to go to the ADR stage. I don't care if I hear him or not, you know. Anyway, so that was the conceit of the show. I love that. ⁓ that's fantastic. Well, it certainly comes through. I mean, it it's it's like I said, it's raw. It's it's just fantastic. ⁓ and then ⁓ and then the you the last thing that you were doing that you were the executive producer on, I think, was n ⁓ was ⁓ Navy SEALs, is it Navy SEAL snows? Yeah, yeah. SEAL team. SEAL team. Yeah. Yeah. And so How how ⁓ what ⁓ did that how did that come about as far as ⁓ coming up with a style for that? 'Cause ⁓ it would seem like you one of the things if it was me, I'd go, Well, I'd done that. Well, what am I gonna do now? You know, I don't wanna just re redo something. Well, I think I I think a lot of what we did on SEAL team was derivative of of ⁓ Southland. Yeah. 'Cause you know, in terms of the action ⁓ part of it. ⁓ 'cause it works. 'Cause it works. 'Cause it works. So you you don't want to be in Afghanistan and show the audience that, you know, before these g these SEALs break into this house. How many seasons did you do that? Seven. Amazing. And ⁓ so before we were talking, you were saying that that recently you've been on a show where you've just been the director for hire as opposed to the executive producer or whatever. What's the good in that and what's the bad in that? Well, I can't say what yeah, we're building it. I'll cut I'll cut money out somewhere else. You get you you're just what you gotta work within a system that's that you don't control. That's that's that's true. And you know, they're all great they're all great people and it's you know, it's ⁓ Studio one on one, Taylor Sheridan's, you know, group and they, you know, they're they're a big group. They've got a lot of shows and and they're all nice guys. Absolutely, but but you the it's But I mean but is there something good in it in that you can go in and go, Yeah, I can see that that's not my problem. That's probably for the next step. Like you can walk away from it and you know, go, I just I'm just doing this little piece of it. Yeah, no, there's a little bit of that. Sure. I mean Yeah. It's gotta be that way. You can't control everything. So I just Okay, you guys tell me what you want to do. So ⁓ asking you specifically about you know, there's actually there's one other thing I want to ask you is is, you know, the the the four shows that I sort of think of you with, you've been involved in so many more, but you know, ⁓ ER, Third Watch, ⁓ SEAL team and and Southland, they all revolve around people who are ⁓ public service isn't the right word, but you know what th they're they're they're in I don't know what you call that, but th they're helping people or or whatever, you know on some level. Or is that just happenstance or ⁓ I think ⁓ you know it's funny, you know you're you're right. ⁓ I don't know. Maybe I am attracted to that kind of dynamic. You know, yeah. Where it's just not I mean, look, I I I I did what I did a pilot with saw only lasted seven episodes with Ray Leota called Smith that John wrote. And it was about ⁓ this guy, Smith, you know, he's it's he's a criminal, but he works ⁓ making paper cups and he's got this whole clan and they go rob art, you know, expensive art or whatever. And it was just really s but it was a really different thing for me. I mean, it was like We're kind of studied and artful and you know, dynamic shots and ⁓ and I like that too. I mean, you know, so I I don't know. Maybe maybe we're just, you know, I don't I don't know. These ensemble these ensemble casts, you know, the Southlands, the SEAL teams, the third watches. I don't know. Maybe there's something about them that I am attracted to. The the group, the group, the family. It seems like it. Yeah. Well or at least let me put it this way. You're definitely good at it. So if nothing else. Can you can you think back to a to to a situation where an operator ⁓ really ⁓ really changed something that you were trying to do and made it into something better? All the time. I mean I I couldn't pick one huge thing, but all the t it happens all the time. And and that's something that you you do you expect it? I I would yeah. I mean if the person's capable. Yeah. And and like I like I said earlier, if he owns it, own it. What's the worst that could h what's the worst that could happen? I say, I don't like that. Let's redo it. That's that's this is why I this is why I always loved working with you because it was like ⁓ it is it was like, all right, so we gotta do that again. But we tried something. You know, better to swing and miss than never to swing at all, right? That's that's right. That's right. I love it. Absolutely. I I wanted to ask you, ⁓ what is what what's what's the worst part of be of of being a directing producer and what's the best part? It's it's always the best part. There is no there is no worse. There is no worse. Okay. So just just the entire thing. It's it's it's only the best. That's fantastic. It's it's what I said to you earlier. It's like, how did I get here? Yeah. Well, it it does sort of seem like in your story you're just sort of surfing surfing the wave and and going, Yeah, I guess I'll do that and I'll do that. I mean the fact that you you basically Turned down EW, which by the way, everybody would have called U and would have been a terrible, terrible idea. So I don't know who came up with that change, but thank you for that. It it was I I guess in the seventies they didn't know, you know. I don't know if did they used to call ERs E EWs? I don't know. I mean, since I've been it was ER, but they must have. But but it duh but you know, it just sounds like you sort of just were like, I I'm gonna embrace every opportunity that comes and make it something better. And yeah, I'm it's so it's impressive to listen to. There's no question about it. ⁓ thanks. Thanks. ⁓ is there something that an operator can do that that you think is a is a cardinal sin? I I I think I've I've had an occasion to have an operator Talk to an actor in the scene, you know, like after the scene. And you don't do that. I mean, there's one voice on the set when you're talking about performance or I'm not talking about technically, you know, like, ⁓ you know, you've got to hit that mark or whatever. Yeah. But critiquing it or and you just you just don't do that. Yeah, giving giving feedback on a performance as opposed to going, hey, when you're around that corner, can you open up the door a little tester or something like that? Yeah. I totally get it, but that's why I asked, 'cause it's always good to hear from from the people who are who are upstairs to to figure that out. I think I asked you beforehand, ⁓ before this, if if you if you read it, ⁓ five movies that you think that every ⁓ every camera operator should see, or five five ⁓ important movies that you think people should see? I think Heat was a movie that I mean I rem visually I remember that. Jimmy Muir. That's right, right? That's Jimmy. ⁓ my gosh. Unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. I would say Both godfathers. I know that they're very different, but the imagery, I mean that shit just didn't happen, right? Yeah. Yeah. wait, can I interrupt for a second? I I like the fact that you said both godfathers as if they're only two movies, because I really appreciate that. We're not gonna we're gonna pretend the third one didn't exist. God bless them, but thank you. Yep. I was dis I was disappointed, man. Yeah, a lot of us were. ⁓ French French connection. ⁓ yeah. Brilliant. The chase sequences. Amazing. Yeah. And again, you know, you it those things just just don't happen. I mean, you you've got to I I sort I have to say I sort of wish people would sometimes bring back the zooming that they used to do in the nineteen seventies. Because there was some cool stuff back when they would do that, you know? I agree. I agree with you. I agree with you. Yeah, when you use correctly. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Apocalypse Now. Okay. Fantastic. And the deer hunter. ⁓ That's that's a list right there. phenomenal. Yeah, actually makes me want to go watch the Deer Hunter again. ⁓ yeah, just amazing. Amazing. ⁓ I also wanted to ask you about from a directing point of view, working with actors. what what do you i is there any any advice you can give to someone who hasn't done that as much anymore? Because I because like we talked about earlier when you came into directing. That was probably the one thing that you'd done the least, I would assume, is working on that level with actors. ⁓ are there any are there any absolute do-nots or or or you know thoughts that you have that you can pass on on that level? I think you gotta judge actors for who they are and be true to them and listen listen to them. But at some point you gotta say, no, this is the way we're gonna do it, or this is the way I want. And you know, and not fight about it. And if they don't want to do it, they don't want to do it. But but I you gotta just have ears for what they're trying to say to you. If they're if it's ⁓ something they don't understand or why would I say that, which is a stupid thing. You know why? Because it's on the script that you get picked. So you're getting paid. So you gotta you gotta pick and choose, you know, your battles. And ⁓ but I think mo most of the time actors wanna be directed. I really do. I really I really believe that. They would Tommy Shalami once told me that ⁓ he said when you run into an actor who's who's, you know, tough with you and problematic and and you know, like sometimes we've seen, ⁓ he said, I always remember that that's an extremely scared individual. And I don't know what they're scared of, but they're they're scared of something or other and and that that changes the way that I deal with them. And I always thought that was really fascinating. ⁓ You can have creative differences as that's as long as that's all there is. But if somebody's being unprofessional, fuck ⁓ All right, that's the t-shirt right there. That's what I thought. But I noticed I couldn't agree with you more because there's a total difference between going, I see it this way and I see it that way and being an asshole. Yeah. That's right. That's right. That's great. That is great. ⁓ I would be remiss if if I finished this interview without asking you a little bit about Richard Thorpe. Who who who's the director of photography on ER when I was there. And is maybe the single biggest character I've ever met in my life. I don't like ⁓ did you guys know each other before ER or ⁓ yeah, I met him on a pilot. He was an operator on a pilot idea. I forget where. I think it was where I was working for. Yeah. ⁓ I don't remember specifically, but I met him. And then when we were looking for a cameraman for ER, John had met him or worked with him. He I I said Richard Thorpe goes, yeah, I Richard Thorpe. I said, What about him? So we brought him in and we talked to him and genius. Remember he always says ⁓ looks more like more lo ⁓ looks like an album cover, more like a manhole cover. He had he had more sayings. ⁓ and he was the most he was the most fascinating guy. And it was so interesting because he on exterior he was kind of like this gruff, you know, gruff guy. And then when you got to know him, he was the most wonderful, open hearted person. I don't think he wanted people to know that, but ⁓ he was just very well he was very very well read. Yeah. Very very smart. Brilliant. You haven't you can you share one good story about Richard Thorpe? No. From your time with him? No. All right, fair enough. I I gotta I gotta try to get him on the podcast sometime, but I don't know if they have ⁓ I don't know if they have phone lines up in Nova Scotia or wherever he has his bunker. Well listen, ⁓ Chris, this has been ⁓ I like ⁓ a r an unbelievable treat for me. ⁓ you like I said, I can't tell you You probably don't know it, but you you you had a a tremendous impact on my career and my and my learning ⁓ my my education as a storyteller. ⁓ with the little bits and pieces that I took off you when we were shooting and and ⁓ just through osmosis. So I thank you for that and I thank you for this. ⁓ it's and your story is just it's a it's it's fantastic to listen to. So I appreciate it. Well thank you made it easy, Dave. ⁓ I appreciate it. ⁓ so I'm gonna leave you with ⁓ My final question, which I leave everybody with and you can take us out. advice for someone getting in the business today on how to succeed and or something you learned along the way that you wish you knew earlier, that you know now. ⁓ I would say you gotta really make sure if you take a step if you put your f toe on the pool of show business, you gotta really know what you wanna do and you gotta love it because there's a lot of rejection. It's very competitive, but you gotta persevere and you gotta do the work. You have to do the work. If you don't do the work, you don't deserve it. And, you know, it's like I said, it's very competitive and that That's the biggest advice. There's no path. I often get asked, like, what which how do I how should I? So you got to do it your own way. I know that sounds scary. I'm not being invasive. You just got to keep going. And and and I can't tell you you got to talk to this person, then talk to that person. It doesn't kind of work that way. Everybody look at my story. I didn't go to film school, you know. ⁓ I I kind of wish I had in a way, because what I don't, what I didn't have early on was connections. I would be on the lot and people would know each other because they went to film school together. They didn't really know any more than I did, but but they they have that camaraderie and connections and and I think that makes it a little easier. And ⁓ but there's no pattern, no path. You just gotta get in there and kinda and you may change what you wanna do once you get exposed to certain situations. ⁓ That's all I can say about that. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.