Pauline Podcast Rerun: The following podcast was recorded in February of twenty twenty four. Enjoy. On today's episode, we'll talk about starting out in reality TV, faking your way into your first job, snowfall, grays anatomy, and of course, jumbo sized toiletries. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website, theop.io, is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Like it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Victor 30 Echo TikTok. Hey Mark. Camera set. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the OP, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I'm Dave Komites, your host, and coming to you yet again from the Panavision Woodland Hills Theater that they allow me to use because it sounds better. Then the ballroom at Chuck E. Cheese, which probably nobody listening to this gets the reference. I have a great operator and a great friend joining me today, Pauline Edwards. Pauline and I worked on Snowfall, which is where we met, so very excited to have her here. Some of Pauline's credits, Mayan's, Grey's Anatomy, Snowfall, RuPaul's Drag Race, America's Next Top Model, The Room, which I have to ask you about. I think you were an assistant on. She was nominated in twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two for an Emmy for RuPaul's drag race for cinematography with a host of other people. I guess that's how that works. And twenty twenty two winner of the SOC Camera Operator of the Year Award along with Mino Rojas for snowfall. Pauline, thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. This this is pretty cool. Yeah, man. We we talk all the time on set and then like here we are. I know, here we are talking awesome. and and nobody's I actually to to have it be right I should have Michelle one of our first ADs standing next to me. How long is this gonna be? You gotta we gotta go. Come on. Well yeah, yeah, I know, right? No, by the way, I love Michelle. Actually actually I'm interviewing her later today. wow. but but yeah, it's sort of like it doesn't feel like it feels weird not having someone say, Why are you guys taking so long? Yeah, yeah. Ask her about a shoe game 'cause it's ridiculous. so hey, tell me your story. How'd you get here? Well ha thanks thanks for having me. Yeah. first of all. and I'm not really, I'm not really used to doing stuff like this obviously. So, I'm from New York. I gr I grew up in New York. I was born in England and You were born in England? Yeah, so my parents are Jamaican and it's a British colony, so they went to Eng to England and my mom is a nurse and my dad was doing carpentry and it's they needed nurses in New York, so she was able to come over to New York and work and and I think I was three when I came over. so did you wait, did you have a little English accent when you were three? That's what they say, but I have zero memory of it. so yeah, I don't I don't remember. so yeah, just growing up in New York, kinda not really knowing what I wanted to do, but th when I was I think when I was ten, they were filming something at my school. I don't know why. Well, at my elementary school that was in my neighborhood. So I will go by and I'm like, Holy shit, there's a a camera and a camera operator and all this big, camera stuff and it always was in the back of my mind. Plus my dad was like like a camera was always glued to his hand. It was like You mean a video camera or a still camera? A video camera, a still camera. Like he had he dis like he loved it and ever since like he was young he was all about cameras. So That was always in the back of my mind but never like a reality. You know what I mean? Like I was going to high school and in New York you could take these tests like you could take like bus and police and like like an aptitude test to see what you would do or you could take all these tests and get your name if you pass on a list. Okay. And then like they will call from the list and you you could be like a bus driver. You know what I mean? that could be your job. And and so there would y everybody takes all of these I don't know if they still do it like that. Wow. But you take all these tests and then you just kinda, if nothing else, if you didn't really have a plan, then that could be it. You'd be like, I passed the police test, so now I'm gonna be a cop, you know? So I was kinda going through aimlessly. I went to college, like community college. I was taking like really nothing classes just to say I was going and so nothing was really going on. hold on a second. So did you take that test? I did I took all the tests. And what are you supposed to be? I yeah, I g I guess I guess I I was either supposed to be a cop or like a like a corrections officer or something like that. But I never I never pursued That part of it. You know what I mean? I just I'm just wondering what you're actually supposed to be, so now that we can go on the road. Yeah. Yeah, who knows? You know what I mean? Like but yeah, so I was kinda not really doing much. My parents had decided they wanted to you know, they had enough of New York and they they moved to Florida, they bought a house, you know, my my brother went. I was like, nah, I don't I'm not going to Florida. But I wasn't really doing much. I had a tragedy happen. I had a a couple of friends that were that were killed and I was usually with them all the time. And so I wasn't with them on this day. and and that happened. And so everybody was always like, all the time. All I heard was, if you if you were there, like you you wouldn't be alive. And so I was always thinking like, well, what am I supposed to be? You know what I mean? Like Yeah, yeah. Like if I'm spared for a reason, like maybe I should be doing something that I really wanna do. You know what I mean? So cameras and and that stuff was in my head and and my mom was like, Why don't you come out here and and check out the schools? So I moved to Florida. Yeah. And I went to Valencia Community College and they had a because they had a film program there. So it was like a a one year kind of or two year program. I don't remember now. But the the professor was Ralph Clemente. He passed away, I think it's I think in like 2015. which was sad. But he was always like, he was so passionate about film and about ever like he invited us to his house once. And he had a theater in his house, a legit like you like a ticket booth and all that stuff. And he invited us over to his house to watch the Oscars one year. And he e everything about that program was so good, e except I think it didn't have a photography course attached to it. Okay. I think that would have helped out a lot. but we learned in that in that s in that school, we learned how to be the crew. So I kinda immediately went to camera and I was like, Well, I just wanna be, you know, so I learned to load. I think we had like a Airy sixteen. I learned I learned to load that and I I think we had like maybe a Panavision, a old Panavision camera. And so the basis of the school was after we'd kind of, you know, watched movies and stuff like that, is he would get like a director And the and they they would have the script and they would hire keys and we would be the crew. that's cool. So you got actual real Yeah, so I was like a loader and a second AC and I was like, This is this is it. Like this is the job. Yeah, yeah. So I I think like originally I had was I I want to be an operator, but like once I was an A C, I was like, This is this is it. You know, and I met people that would just like they would in AC for twenty years and I'm like, I found my job. Yeah. You know, and so when we graduated, we decided to come out to LA for the summer just to hang out. Some people had like internships. I didn't have anything. And so we all just kind of it was like ten of us. And we just drove out to LA. So Ralph, he gave us all these all the walkies. He like, Just take the walkies and that way you can communicate 'cause we had five different cars. Or while you were driving, you mean. While we were driving. So he were like, You can communicate with each other and I'll come out there and I'll I'll grab the the walkies or whatever. So we were like, Okay, so we we did this whole long drive across country. we get to LA and you know, the place was staying. It's it's like we got like These furnished apartments that was supposed to be like Oakwood apartments, but it was like like a offset of it. We were in Van I's we were just like, wait, this isn't what the brochure you know what I mean? 'Cause it was Van I's the Van I's not as nice, but back then it was like rough. And I was like, What what so what what y what is nineties? When is this? we moved out here in ninety nine. Okay. And and how old were you? I'm not saying. Okay. Well, you're only twenty-one now, so you must have been four. So I started super early in life. good. All right. So nineteen ninety nine. Yeah, yeah. So we we get out to LA and we're just trying to figure it out and w like someone has a internship on a movie and then we all go, so it's just like So we get there and they're like, wait, we just need one PA you what I mean? So but we're all you all showed up as we showed up as a crew, you know what I mean? With your own walking. Yeah, yeah. So they're like, yeah, just go. so so I I kinda inched towards the camera, you know, the camera car and This was movie or this was w what was this? I think this was a movie. I don't remember what it was. Okay, but I kept inching towards the camera car and they were like, Get out of here, like, who are you? And then after a while, every day I would just show up and no no money. Wow. And then they were like, you can push the cart. And and like I'm like so happy. I'm like, shit, I'm pushing the cart. And then so one day, well not on that show, but like we were doing that for a little bit. And one day, I guess an AC was playing football or something and like broke his ankle. And they were know how to load? And I'm like, I do. I do know how to load. I had a a book. It was a camera assistance manual. And in that book had diagrams of every like camera. I remember that. And so I always had like dummy loads. So I'm like, yeah, I know, I know how to do it. So I go into the dark room and I lock the door, and I know. So I open up the book, right? And I'm looking at the camera and I'm like, all right, well, I loaded Aries 16 before. So Airy thirty five, I have it's the same setup, so I'm just with my dummy load, I'm just and now they're like banging on the like w hey, like where's the mag? And I'm like, I'm coming, you know what I mean? And I haven't even started yet. I'm just kinda going through like, all right, I figured this out. Let me now turn off the light. I was gonna say, so you've got the light on figuring out the I have the light on with my dummy load. And then you're gonna turn the light away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now I turn off the light and like I'm I'm loading For anybody who's never done that before, that's especially when you're not good at it. I remember because I loaded for a little bit. It's a really daunting thing because it's pitch black. Yeah. And you're feeling around with the And if you have something that's not where you usually have it, then you're like stuck. Because the good because the good loaders have they they just okay, I always I I always take the lid off and I put it to the left and I was But if you're starting, you don't have that routine, so you're like feeling all over in the walls and stuff like that. Yeah. And then the gears and you're like it won't catch and man, it was it was it was something else. But that's how I learned to load and that's how I was getting my jobs. It was just loading these little short ends and yeah, with these ridiculous cameras and the the aton and all all But you did it and you kept the job there, I'm assuming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I was able to Panavision was the easiest 'cause it was just like no gears just sliding and everything, you I was killing those mags. And yeah, so I was doing that and and then Ralph Comente came out to LA to to you know to hang out for a little bit and he knew David Nutter, right? wow, David Nutter b big directors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So David Nutter David Nutter was his like student. I think I'm not sure if they went to my university of Miami. I'm not David's a super nice guy. So he interviews with all of us, right? And and so we we we go to his office and we all interview and he's like interviewing people, people like, Yeah, I wanna be a PA I'm like I so I go in and I'm like, I don't wanna do any of that. Like I just wanna be in camera. Can you get me like in a camera house? And he was like, Nope. You know, and and I was and that that was kind of our interaction. With with me and David Nutter, with us and David Nutter. We also went to his house, he wasn't there, and we had this big barbecue and I looked at his Emmys and I was like, Man, this is amazing, you know what I mean? look how close I am to this and it it just keeps not the awards and stuff, but it it just allows you to dream big to think that someone that went to film school was able to achieve you know what I mean? well it's not this weird thing that's out there. It's like, no, this is this guy that I I just met and he's Yeah. I think then he had done Roswell and yeah, he was the Well also especially David, he's such a nice down to earth person. It's not like he's some big ego, whatever. Yeah. he's a normal dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm figuring my career will come full circle when I when I actually work for him. So that's in the universe. So we'll see what happens. Tell me the truth. Do you take a picture with the Emmy at his house? Come on. No, no. It back in the day, dude, it wasn't it wasn't even light. you think you had flip phones and stuff like that. that's true. Yeah, yeah. That's a good point. Okay. But you would have. I would have, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Mine. So what so what happened after that? You start like beating the beating the streets? Yeah, I went to Panavision to try and get you know, like a a job there, and they were like, you need a bachelor's degree or you like to join their they had a a program or whatever. So I was just kinda beating it around, going to different camera houses. So I went to one which was like Rocky Mountain Motion Picture. And they were across the street from Pascal Lighting. Yeah, I kinda remember. so I went up in there and they were like, No, get out of here. We can't And then a month later they called me, like, We got your number from so and so and I'm like, what? Like You guys would kick me out like a month ago. So I go there and I get a job with them and I'm I'm like cleaning their cases and driving like their parts to like different things and I worked there for a while and they kinda went under and yeah and then I worked at I had like odd jobs. I worked at UPS, I got fired from that. I worked I worked at Staples Center. and that was great, but they had plans and they really came through with all their plans. They were like, We're gonna build hotels and we're gonna do this and we're gonna do that, I don't know. I was like, Well, I don't I didn't come out here to may have a career at Stable Center. Yeah. So they were giving me time off to do some jobs here and there, but but eventually, they stopped wanting to give me time off. So I ended up having to quit there and and then just yeah, I was able to just start making a career as a As a second A C and a loader. How how long between when I'm not gonna ask you how old you were? Yeah. How long how long between when you came to LA and and where you started working as a second A C and as a loader, full time? is that a is that a year or two years or I think it was probably two years of working on this super low budget fifty dollar a day kinda kinda shows. I didn't l I I used to speak to some A Cs and they're like, I never did you know, I just started working in commercials and I like, what like when I did my first commercial, I couldn't bel I was five hundred dollars? I made fifty dollars a day. I could barely pay rent. I'm living with eight people in a two bedroom. I remember the stuff where I'd show up and I'd be like, You're gonna feed me, right? Yeah. 'Cause I'm saving money if you feed me. Okay. Okay. I would take the food like if I worked on I I work on music videos and I would take the trays of food and put them in my car and bring them home. You'd eat for two. So we so my my f so we could all were you guys all still living together? Yeah. We lived together for a long time. We lived together for at least I think four months in Van Nuys and then we moved down to the beach and we had like we rented this house. And we would we were all together for a long That's great time. Like a lot of us we just you know what I mean? Eventually we started thinning out and everybody started getting their own place, but we lived together for a long time. And and did most are most of them in the film industry now? did most of them persevere? They were. I have my friend John, he does I think he he does like industry stuff or not industry stuff. What I'm thinking industrial? Yeah yeah yeah it does stuff like that. in Florida, my my other friend Jen, she had her own thing going on, like her own company. Okay. She the none of them are like crew people like you. some of are it is like my friend Alice is still script supervisor, I think in Florida. my friend Ben moved to Atlanta. He's I'm not sure if he's a key grip or best boy grip. but he was big. He was working on Ghost Whisperer when he was here. He was the one that was actually making the most money out of all of us. He'd bring home the most food at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was so it was good. It was good to have I I give it to people that are like I'm moving to LA. I I give it to them 'cause I don't think I could have done that. I don't I'm not sure if I had like the guts You mean by yourself, you're saying to move out here by myself. I I had a a one hundred percent support group. Yeah. And when you weren't working it was like we just when someone was down there was always something to pick you up and if you didn't have enough money to pay rent, we always figured it out and food and everything. So I had this massive support group. Yeah. I had a I had something similar. I lived in a house in Burbank with five other guys and like one was in the living room, one was in the dining room. I was in like this This crossway between the bathroom and the and the hallway or something like that. Yeah. But we were there for I don't know, a year a year or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause it's just and literally it was like it was like someone had a good paycheck, so they'd buy a ton of rice and beans and that'd be in the cover. Yeah, and you live off of that. Those were good times. I don't know whether I want to go back, but they were good times. Yeah. Yeah. There's less stress in a weird in a weird way there was less str 'cause you had nothing to lose, right? Dude, there was way less stress. You're like, I'm so close to being lost. You know what I mean? It was like If I couldn't if I couldn't pay rent, then my family would help me. But like it was just I don't know. It was for for me, it was it was great. It was great having your friends and just surrounded by not naysayers, you know what I mean? People like, you wanna like you you need to get a real job. Like you can't make a living doing you know what I mean? We didn't have that. We had everybody who had a goal and we were all just in our each individual way. my friend John at the time was doing sound and you know what I mean? So we all had our own Yeah. And Ben would try and get me though Ben tried to get me on to his shows because I wasn't getting as much work as an A C so he was like, You could be an electrician. yeah. Like, okay. And then he put me on a rigging crew and like dragging around this four rot and like the huge cables. The dudes are grumpy and I get why now because they're like Fifty and they're do you know what I mean? And they're dragging around. And they're hauling around massive although truthfully I don't know if that's a thing anymore because everything's LED now. So maybe those maybe those big cables aren't as much. Dude, I didn't last. I lasted like fifteen days, maybe. Those cables are yeah. I mean my fingers are permanently dirty. It was I couldn't clean them off. And then my back was on fire. I'm like, I don't wanna do this job. He was like, You're almost there, like I can get you in and I'm like, no. So how long did it take to the p t till you got to the point as an A C I'm assuming you got to this point as an A C where you were like, I'm making a I'm making the I'm making a living, I know another job's gonna come, like I I I'm working. I think it was after the strike because I I was working here and there. Strike in two thousand eight? Yeah, yeah. So So t I was a second A C and then the strike happened. Okay. And then I was like, shit and then My friend got me a job on top model. and that's how I started working like in reality on a scripted world. But w top top model you were operating or top model you were I was AC. You were f you were pulling focus or or No no no. Just no A C and at the time on that was like a battery and a tape. okay. Gotcha. like a disc. So it's almost more like a utility in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I was so so I was I was doing that and I was doing like I was getting a bunch a ton of work in reality world. did you just it was so many clock. Did you look into it? did or did you know someone or how'd you get into reality world? Well, my my friend Robbie, I don't know, I'm not sure how he got the call, but like they were looking I think Tomato had just turned union and I was union and they like a lot of people weren't were non union and they they weren't really about joining. So they were looking for union ACs. okay. And that's how I got in. That's cool. And then I like the operators were awesome. They were ten or fifteen operators, you know what I mean? on a shift. And so it was all these ACs and we're all interacting with each other and interacting with the operators. And I AC'd for Ruben, I see for Gretchen. Gretchen Worthing. Yeah, so Gretchen was like all about like Gretchen's hard card. Bam throw a camera on my shoulder, g foot in your back, get in there and try and I'm like, shit. to you to you saying you get in there. A hundred percent. Yeah, 'cause she's also a big supporter of no, no, we gotta get more ladies in here. So I'm Gretchen would throw a camera on my shoulder. I would run in there and I'm shooting up a storm and then I realize I didn't hit record and it's just you know what I mean? 'Cause you're so excited. But there are ten other cameras. You said you said the bunch of camera. Yeah, there's a lot of camera but d there's downtime. Yeah. You know, sometime like 'cause on top model it's like you're you're there with them from the morning until night and you know, they're doing all different things and sometimes there's some people that stay in the house and some people go off and do like photo shoots. So with filming all of that just and some of it is just like filler. Yeah. You know? so Well the thing that she was telling me b which maybe helps her throwing a camera on your shoulder and going go in and shoot something. Yeah. Is there's almost nothing that if you miss it, like the whole the whole thing falls apart. It's cause they can always use audio and they can always rebuild something in an interview or something like that. Yeah. So she was like, you know, you're trying to grab as much as you can, but if you miss something or you you know you're zooming at a bad point or something like that, it it's not so important. Yeah, yeah. So there's a little bit of error error. So so you would go in there and just shoot stuff. And are you on a headset or are you just going, I'm gonna follow what's going on? Yeah, yeah, on a walkie and then she would her and and and Claudio as a director and they were great and they would just like go in there and and just shoot and and and then they would let AC shoot on Elimination Days, which was like a big to do, like on a stage and so like three ACs would shoot and I I would shoot like me, Teresa, Vitale. But it's still handheld. No, that those are that's on sticks. that's on sticks. Yeah, so your sticks and a zoom control. And then let you because it's more it's more controlled than design and it's just like you're gonna follow this person. You're you have your your shots. I think at one time I was like this crazy wide shot that when the person walks in then you just kinda zoom in with them and bring them to an over. Yeah. Or or then you or you zoom in and you're one of the judges cameras and like Our our director was a screamer man and you couldn't mess up and sometime like your finger be like shaking on a zoom control 'cause you're like, fuck, like I don't want to mess up. You know what I mean? So it's it you know, just even like handheld when we did handheld stuff, like we would have a screamer on top model and it was just rough, man. When you say screamer meaning they're in your ear and they're going, Why are you doing that? Yeah, yeah. But that's a g but as as look, that's not a lot of fun, but But it sets you up, right? it makes it it's like it's like practicing under a live fire, you're like Yeah, yeah, yeah. when you yeah, if you go to another show that there's no screaming, you're like, This is great, you know, like I don't have any pressure like But it was it like I felt that working on top model and working in like unscripted like I was so comfortable as a shooter. Yeah. that like nothing at the time it was like there's nothing that can phase me really. Like I know exactly what to do, I know exactly where to go, I know like if people are moving around, I know the line, like I know all of that. but I was still ACing and I c it was hard to make that leap to like have someone hire you as an operator. Yeah. So what I did, I had an opportunity to work on a show that was in a whole nother state in Mississippi called Bring It. it was like a dance reality show. A dance competition show, sorry. And I left and I worked on that show. Because they were hiring you as an operator, yeah. Correct. And they didn't know me as an A C. And I think I saw you you you had like sixty eight episodes of that or something. Yeah, for a while. That show was on and off for f I four or five years. Wow. I was in Mississippi for like I gave our apartment. I had no idea. Yeah, yeah. I I basically moved to Mississippi. But so basically you kinda went there and went, No, I'm an operator. Yeah. You needed to go somewhere where any they thought you was they hired me as an op they knew me as an operator. Did you ha did you just randomly you heard about this and put in a resume or like you knew someone or what? No, ye she was working on Tom Motto in like production 'cause Tomato would travel Overseas, which was the the best thing about because people are like, Well, are you still working on a show? I like, I want to go to Bali. You know what I mean? 'Cause we they went somewhere every year. So which amazing. Name some of the places you went to on top model. man, I went to China, I went to New Zealand, Amsterdam, Brazil. All on company dime. Yeah. And when you went Hawaii, when you went to these places you have time to actually check it out, you're not working. You can stay later. So they'll they'll be they'll they'll accommodate you. They'll say if you wanna, stay like however long, we'll figure out your flight. you just have to pay for wherever you stay. Yeah. so I would go somewhere like New Zealand was amazing. So we went and then when New Zealand when we we wrapped with that, we backpacked all the way up to the northernmost point. of New Zealand. When I say backpack, like we were in a car, but there was four of us. Yeah. And their hostels are like a apartments. Their hostels are amazing. That's incredible. Not like hostels here where you're like, No, no, no. Most actually most of the West of the world the hostels are just you know better than I do. telling you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I I remember you vaguely telling me something about going to China and you brought an entire extra bag just for hair care products or something. Because you didn't really usually when you work on Taumato Your first season, you don't get to travel, right? Because they bring the the the more. The more seasoned people. So Gretchen I was ACM Gretchen. So he's You wanna go to China? I'm like, Yeah. So I don't know, right? So I have like a fa you know, 'cause we're gonna be there, I think, three or four w weeks. So I'm bringing like family size shit. Like I'm like, Well, I don't need my family size, like Listerine and family. I had the biggest bag and I'm dragging it into the airport. It's not one of those nice ones. It's like this massive bag with these little tiny wheels. So they're not rolling. So you're just dragging it. And Gretchen's there and I'm I'm already like sweating just from dragging this bag and she's looking at me like, Well, I'm just gonna meet you at the gate. And I'm like, All right, and like I drag it and I put it of course it's oversized, so they're like, You have to pay like all this money. Just to bring the bag up. It's full of Listerine and shampoo. And shampoo and con family s like stuff you get at Costco. That's so funny. It was bad the bag was massive. It's like and I think I have a pillow. I have I just don't even know. I'm in a button up shirt. Was that your first time every first time flying? So usually you didn't know and you're going to China. It's not like you're going a this flight is long and people are like in pajamas and I'm in a button up shirt that's like Not comfortable. And I'm guessing by that point in her career, because I talked to Gretchen, she's like probably knowing her, she's like the p total professional packer. Like she's just Yeah. Gretchen have everything rolled up, like probably in a backpack. I gonna say or like all in Ziploc bags where she just pulls one out. Everybody, like Coleman, I don't know if you know Coleman. He everybody was like s like knew what to do and what to bring. Those guys dial in. I brought clothes for like months. Yeah. I I I did a I did a documentary that I shot in Haiti right after the earthquake in two thousand ten, which is a whole nother story. But the sound guy that I was with who like we were attached at the hip, Scott, I think Hanlin, he did the amazing race. And I remember Yeah, it's like and that's a whole nother thing 'cause like you're actually travelling I mean you're you're tr you're traveling. But I remember the thing that he had was he had every day's stuff in a Ziploc bag and ha two days in I was like what's with all the Ziploc bags and he goes, Listen, I never know where I'm gonna be, where I'm gonna be, whether I'm gonna have light and whether I'm gonna do this. So if I reach into the the bat my my backpack and I pull out a Ziploc bag, that's clean clothes and dirty clothes are not in the Ziploc bag. I never have to think about it. Everything I need is in there and I was like that's brilliant. Yeah. So I mean but I think those guys like they they learn it quick how to how to just dial it in and and meanwhile you're you get the sixty four ounce I got the the two hundred extra extra money. That's hysterical. I love that story. That's so great. So that's great. So you went all over the world on someone else's diamond with good people and and did most people stay extra and and take advantage of it? Yeah, yeah. But not in Ch I think China was my one regret because I that was my first time ever flying anywhere. you know, like overseas like that. And I I think they had just unearthed the the terracotta soldiers. yeah, sure. Right? Yeah. And I wanted to see that so bad because in like I brought my my camera I had my my 5D at the time and everything was interesting. You know what I mean? Like, sh the stop sign is in charge, you know. Yeah, right. So I'm like taking pictures of everything and I hear about terracotta soldiers. The the problem was it was like you had to fly it's not close there and everybody was like, I'm outta here and and I and I panicked and I but meaning you didn't you didn't go there, you wish. But if I was a seasoned traveler, if if I had a couple of years in under my belt, I one hundred percent would have Well, you had to lug all the shampoo in the list. Going back, everybody was like, Just throw wait, what are you doing? Like you can find this stuff here. It's like I didn't know. so so you did what's it called? Br Bring It? Bring it? No Bring it. Bring it. In Mississippi, yeah. And is this sort of like what's the dance what's the dance the dance thing that's Like dance moms you think about? No, I don't no the one with the with the stars. Dancing with the stars. Is it sort of like that kind of thing where it's competitions and stuff? or is it more like following them in their daily life kind of thing? W i we it was mostly so I don't know if you know about H B C U so black colleges they have they're big about their bands. yeah marching bands. Yeah, so they're marching bands. So with the marching bands is also like they have dancers. Sure. So the the dancers like so the the football game is going on and they're the dancers are in the stands and they're dancing and they're battling back and forth with the other teams. I gotcha. Dancers, right? So they call it stand battle. So what this these girls were they were young. They were the ones we were following, I think they're they're the ones on the team are I think from like twelve to eighteen, right? And so they it was kinda like that. It was kinda like a a stand battle I gotcha thing. But they they also had like other kind of dances in there. And they would go to different gyms and they would be different teams and they would have these battles back and forth and then you know, someone would well a team will move on or a team would win and and then, you know, next week we'd do another battle. So what we did was we the the teacher, Diana, was like super strict and like real like r great for T V, right? The teacher meaning sort of like the coach or whatever. Yeah, so she's a coach will coach the team and we would show up we do interviews I think in the morning and then we'd show up to their practice and we'd follow their team and and all of them and then they'd go off to different they'd battle people in different states and and so we'd follow around. So it was great. And how many cameras or how many camera operators there were there were four of us. So two were with the moms because the moms always had their own thing and then two me and Letty. So Carl and Danny were outside when we filmed at the studio, they were outside filming the moms and and Letty and myself were inside yeah, shooting the girls and practice and stuff like that. So we got s really close with the kids and the you know, the moms and you know, we were just we were there for so long. It was like we were just part of their That's really cool. Yeah, it was but you know, I I felt bad for the producer 'cause sometimes they had new producers come in and they're like, We wanna try this I mean like They're not gonna like that. You know what I mean? 'cause we knew. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they'd be like, we're gonna go anyway. And this so that would make our life a little harder as as you know, the cast would push back. And is all of this handheld? Yeah. So you I mean that's that's we'd be handheld for I I would be handheld just like four hours straight. Really? Yeah. With not and we're talking full size cameras. This these aren't like Yeah, like the well, th they were what do we shoot with the like the Sony the X D cam when I took the disc. But it's not a small camera. no no no. This is lot of time you have your zoom and the battery. I think, you know, I think we weighed it one time with a luggage thing. I think it was like forty one pounds. For four hours. Four hours for that. Like if we're shooting Wow on the day like a competition, like you're running around. Yeah. I was I was Diana Cam and she would get in a her arguments and Sometime it would be like fights and And you're going where if she goes back she goes to the bathroom. Sometimes I'm with her exactly by myself because Letty would be with the girls and if Diane was like I'm gonna I just have to follow her. And you have someone on your back or or is it just you? It's just me and my and and my sound guy. So okay, so your sound guy's helping keeping an eye on you if you're backing up at least or something? Yeah, I just you know, I'm gonna So so when you When you're doing narrative stuff, it must be like, I get to rehearse this. This is I think th you know, when so after I did bring it, it was like Gretchen Gretchen knew Maddox. So let me back up. So I was ACing on this show called Real Husbands of Hollywood. So Gretchen was on it and Maddox and sorry, Gretchen, Ruben and Coleman were the operators, right? And this is I'm sorry, bef after you were operating or before? This is before I left Mississippi. Before you left for Mississippi. Right. This is before before I left, right? So I was still ACing. so I was I was ACing on that and then the D P was Bill Sheehee and Bill Shehe was he did Kerb, Kirby enthusiasm. Okay, yeah. Right? So he had So Gretchen worked on that. I worked on that. I worked on it for three seasons and then I left to go do Bring It. Yeah. Right. Gretchen stayed on that show and Bill Sheehe had left and Maddox came on. This is Tommy Maddox Up Show? Yeah. GP So Maddox came on E S C, right? Right GP. So he came on. Wait, he came on this is a reality show? No, no, no. Real Real Husbands of Hollywood is like a fake reality show with Kevin Hart. It's a narrative. It's like a shot like a yeah, it was shot like a reality show. So it was Kevin Hart's show. I was like Maddox style started. Yeah, yeah. So Maddox Maddox DP'd that and that's how he met Gretchen, right? And then when when I was on still on Bring It, Bill Sheehe had called me and was like, I gotta I gotta show. You know, do wanna come operate for me? 'Cause he knew I wanted to operate. And I was like, Yeah. So I called the union, I'm like, I need to I need to to to jump on. I gotta jump classification. Yeah, I g I gotta change my my classification right now. so they did all of that. So now I'm an operator in the union. Yeah. I'm working on a non union show in Mississippi, but I told them, I'm like, I got a job, like, I'm gonna go. Yeah. Right? So I'm I I didn't know what the show was. But I knew Ruben was gonna be on it and I was quitting This show. Who's who's I gotcha. Okay. So you're sorry if I'm jumping all over the No, that's right. No, no, but it's it happens a lot on this because we all talk about as if everybody knows we all do it. but so basically you were like there's a union show that needs an operator and I'm gonna be surrounded by some people I trust, so it's you know it it's it's gotta be good. Yeah, so I'm leave I'm gonna leave, bring it, I'm gonna do this show. And this and you knew this was a narrative show. Yes. Okay, yeah. And that that was that really w had you been going, This is where I want to get to? Yeah, yeah. I think everybody not I can't say everybody. I know a lot of shooters that in unscripted wanna do wanna do wanna do s wanna do scripted. The problem is is unscripted it's like two operators. You know what I mean? And unscripted it's ten to twenty. You can have so many operators. But on the flip side, if you get the camera on your shoulder for eight hours, I can't understand why anybody wouldn't wanna do narrative. Yeah, ex shot's three minutes long? Yeah, I can handle that. I know, right? d trying to no, I'm good. Meanwhile, the other narrative operator, which is me, is going, This shot's three minutes long. Yeah. Anyway. so so what what what show was that? So I don't know. So Bill Sheehe s was gonna hire me for the show. I was I decided I was gonna quit bring it. Then like a couple days later I get a call from Ruben and he's like, Something happened, like the read Something's going on with the show, like I think you should make you know, and I'm like, What? And he's like, I don't think the show's gonna happen. And then I got a call from Bill, and he was like, I'm so sorry, it's not gonna happen. So I was like, Okay, so I go back to bring it 'cause they had already hired someone and I'm like, Can I have my job? my gosh. Well actually I'm gonna interrupt for a second 'cause this is actually a great note for people who are starting out. It ain't happening until it's happening. Yeah, yeah. I mean you you're probably the same. I ha I have I can't tell you how many jobs that I'm like, all right, I'm selling the house and I'm doing this and whatever. And you're standing on the curb with your bags going ready to go to the airport and they're like, Yeah, it it fell through Yeah. It fell through and you're like, What? no backup for Yeah, the first day, at the end of the first day, by then it's usually happening, but that's about what Yeah. Yeah, so that happened. that's r and and you basically kinda burned your I it burned your bridges, but you but you were like Replace me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I well I didn't burn the bridge. No, no. But I d you know, I told them I had an opportunity I was leaving. And then they were like, Okay, we'll figure something out and they let me come back. nice. And then when the show ended, like I got a call from Maddox and he's like, Hey, I got your number from Gretchen, you know, that's FaceTime. And I FaceTime with him and he was like, Yeah, so we hit it off. Yeah. you hadn't met him before? No, no. I got I was in I was in Mississippi and FaceTime. So he's like, I I have this show. It's a handheld show. You know, are you interested? And I'm like, Yeah. That's what I do. And it was actually perfect because Bring It was ending. And then I so I came back to LA. I didn't have an apartment, some Airbnb in it. And I'm looking for a place and I'm on the show and like it's my first scripted show, but it's handheld. What show is this? Huge in France. It was on Netflix. Okay. It's with this this comedian, Gad. He's from France, right? And then he so it's kind of like a, yeah, like a loosely held, you know, he's he's just it's a lot of ad lib and stuff like that. But it's still scripted, so you're rehearsing. This other operator, Robert Arnold and it's great. So you're the B camera operator on this as well. Well or I'm a A camera, but I don't like I don't think Maddox it mattered to him. You know what I mean? Like A or B. Like it was just we were both shooting all the time. So let me stop you for a second. What other than obviously just being able to hold the camera 'cause I've seen you you do handheld before and it's just like you put me to shame as far as being able to hold yeah, yeah. but What what did you take other than that, the th the the f physically you were ready to run around with a camera, but what did you take from script from unscripted to scripted that helped you you know, in your job? Like what what what did what did you learn from there? You mean shooting wise? Yeah, I mean just or the way you think about things or whatever, because I'm sure some of it I mean, in other words, in in scripted, you're not gonna go, Okay, I gotta be ready to run out the door any minute if they have to run out of the you know, what's gonna happen. But so What translates over as far as ba doing handheld? 'Cause you're a great handheld operator and I'm just wondering thank you. How much of that how much of that came from unscripted and how much of that was learned and I think your your instincts, I think I was just I was I was able to like look at a person and tell when they were gonna talk or anticipate. I was I was able to anticipate So body language and stuff like that. Yeah, I knew the line really well. It which which kind of messes me up a little in scripted because I'm like, well, I don't know, they're crossing the line and they're like, it doesn't matter. And like my head will just melt away because I'm like, wait, what? So like I j I felt like I was really able to tell a story 'cause sometimes in unscripted it you know, you you're single camera and you just y you have to get like all you know, this person's talking and you decide when You wanna see this person or you decide what's important. Well you're kinda editing in your head a little bit, right? So you're making choices. It it was it's so weird because it just was natural. And so to come into the scripted show, it just felt and being handheld, like I didn't have to think about anything. If everything just felt natural. Cool. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it went on like that. Even like my next show. with Maddox was on my block and that was more of a a dolly show, but the dolly grip was amazing. I didn't have any problems, and then I got on Snowfall and it all fell apart for me. It really did. It was just like all of a sudden like I was thinking too much. You know what I mean? It was just like all everything that I felt like I had learned had just kind of went away and that, you know, like the the two shows I had done were lighthearted shows and kind of comedy-ish. Yeah. And I come in a snowfall and it's like serious. And the, you know, the actors are, you know, like super serious and like the just the the script, like everything was just like heavy. And Here I am now I have to communicate with this dolly grip that I don't now all of a sudden it's like I don't know how to communicate with people. I'm afraid to talk to the actors. So do think you just got in your own head? a hundred percent. I can't when I got to Snowfall, it was you how many years did you do a season before you did with me? So two seasons? Yeah, I started on season four. Maddox had tried to get me on season three. he got the whole crew 'cause their whole crew travels together. It's amazing AC crew. Yeah. They're just like family and they just all are together. And when I I came in and worked with them, it was like it just messed with them. And then we just started going for show to show. And then they got on all of them got on Snowfall for season three. I go in the interview Crash and Burn, you know what I mean, with with Elliot, who's the the the other D yeah, 'cause they're called D Ps. And so I go in and I'm just like 'cause I done never interviewed before. So but this is a really good good good thing for people to hear about. So w it wasn't that you didn't have the talent, because I've seen you, you have the talent. But you just you just got in your own head and you got in your own way. I g I tripped over my feet at the interview. I don't mean to laugh. Right? But so I didn't so I didn't I didn't get it, right? So I trip I trip and fall. On my face. Maddox isn't there. So I know Maddox. Because Maddox already said just check her out with. Do you do you mind me asking like what he asked you that you think you trip like how how does one trip up in an interview? I don't even I I I wish I could help you. Okay, just a blur. I f I feel like I blacked out, right? And I feel like I stumbled out of there. And and do you think it was sort of like Where you think mentally you were going, This is like a big show. I'm not I can't do I'm not ready for this and what it was a big show. Maddox wasn't I had never I hadn't done a show, a scripted show without Maddox. So when I when I FaceTime with Maddox, I didn't know him and we hit it off. And and i it was just like that for every show. It was just So you felt protected and you're good. Yeah, no, no, I I heard it was fun. Everything was just we were doing our job, but it was fun. I just had a blast and it didn't seem like work. It was like, I can't wait to go to work tomorrow. All my friends all my friends are there. We're just gonna have a great time and everybody was happy. It's comedies and stuff. Sure. so I get to snowfall and it is I don't know, I'm meeting with this this DP. I don't know. I've never interviewed Yeah, I'm sitting down and I've never interviewed before ever. Yeah. the only thing I think I've ever done, like in reality, was kind of like here's like my resume every once in a while. Someone doesn't know me. No frame of reference, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But for the most part, like even that back then when people are like, Can I have a resume? I pfft I was well, I even want to work with you. you don't know who I you know what I mean? It was just like what? no, I don't remember. So anyway, so I get into this thing, I crash and burn. I don't get the show. So they're doing, snowfall and I'm right back into back into work. Yeah, yeah. So here I am, like, man, I failed, you know what I mean? I'll just How'd you ha how how'd you how'd you handle that? I mean, what'd you do with that? I mean, I was sad that I wasn't with my friends. Yeah. but getting work again, I I I just kinda fell right back into it. and it was fine, you know. I am so comfortable working in you know, in unscripted even like we did a a stage show, it was called Rhythm and Flows on Netflix and I was doing the handheld part and then they were like, Hey, do you wanna do the studio part? And I'm like, Sure. And and it's like this big ped and I'm like, shit, like I never But Coleman is there and he's like, so you do some that's how I figured out how to do Wow, 'cause a ped camera, that's a whole that's like Yeah. That's popping your head and rubbing your belly at the same time. Yeah, like it's a whole I don't know how those the people who are good at that, that's a whole 'cause you're diallying, you're zooming, you're focusing. You're booming up and down, booming up and down. You have your your like your your set things you have to do. Wow. So it was it you know, you have like your little pad and your thing. So but that's the thing of hearing all this. It's like Clearly you have all the technical. It's just that you got you you mentally you mentally took yourself out for that. So I get a c so I get a call again for snowfall season four is coming up and like Maddox is determined. I was gonna say from Maddox, so he's like, No, we're getting you back in. He's like, We're getting you in there. So good. I I we go in with you know, we're meeting with a boo. So Maddox has talked like Elliot into hiring me. So Elliot is still the other DP. Yeah, yeah. So he so he's like, she can do this, right? And you're gonna meet with John LeBrucherie, the the So the three of us are in there. He's the producer. Yeah producer. And and we go into the interview and I freeze up, right? So I Is Elliot Davis also in this interview? E Elliot no Rocket. Rocket Is the is the well is the D P. there's a different D P Ro I didn't even know Rocket. Yeah, yeah, Elliot Rocket is the DJ. Elliot Rocket. I'm sorry, not Davis. I'm sorry. So he did he did Grim. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was thinking. So and Perry Mason and stuff. So But he's but I'm saying he's in this meeting as well. He's in there. So Maddox has convinced Elliot that I can do this job. So they're both in there now trying to convince John LeBu that I could do this job. Right. So I'm in there and I kind of freeze up. You know what I mean? is asking me these questions and that now basically Maddox is answering the questions that Laboo is asking me 'cause I'm just like Yeah. freezing up. So anyway, so they ended up getting me on. I I I get on the show, I'm working with the grips and I have to now communicate with these guys. And your B camera your B camera on the show. I'm B and I am just I I don't know how to communicate with these guys and they are moving fast and I'm like, Well, put the camera over, you know, and they're just like, No, you know, let's check with you know, see what Maddox wants and it like so nothing I was saying like they would you know what I mean? It was just like, Well, let's see what Maddox they didn't trust me. It sounds like they didn't trust you. They didn't trust me and so Xavier Thompson was A. Yeah. At the time. And then he was like, they just don't trust you yet. you have to earn their trust. And I legit did not know. I was what do you mean I don't trust me? And do you think that's because that other show that you went in where the Dolly Grip like that? He d it I'm assuming it was a guy that he just that he just immediately was like, Hey, we're gonna take care of this, we're gonna do this and what they just did everything, you know what I mean? Like So that was your norm. Yeah, yeah. I mean Maddox is super hands on, right? So he'd be like, he would We all be standing around, he I I want the camera here. And they would just build it out. They would you know what I mean? Instead of So it sounds like the norm to you was Maddox tells what the shot is, the grips do what he told them to do, and then I get on and operate it. That's my job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I I 'cause I don't think I was at the point I became the get at that point, but I don't think I was at the point where it was like I can pick a spot. You know what I mean? Or I can sell a this is where the camera needs to be. Right, right, right. And I I it wasn't I wasn't there yet. And Maddox works super fast and so the way that that was all working was fine for me. Yeah. when I get on snowfall, they're like, Where do you want the camera? And I'm like, You know what mean? Yeah, yeah. And then and then I'm working with Elliot and Elliot works different than Maddox. Yeah. And so I just felt like every day I felt like I was gonna get fired. I'm like we get off the van and the entire AC department, our camera crew, would stand there and prop me up, so I wouldn't cry. That's well it's so great. it's terrible, but it's so great also 'cause I know these people and they're they're just the best people. Yeah, they would they Alexina and Jose and Prentice and and and and and Xavier and they no, no you're fine and I'm just like, I don't know, I'm just like You know what I mean? It was just so bad, and so we were w we're shooting and shooting and then COVID. Yeah, right. I didn't even think about that. That's right. COVID. Yeah. When COVID happens. It's like you're starting to get your footing and then it's like everything stops. I really wasn't getting my footing, dude. I was I was You're trying to I was I was holding the pl the like the plane is tilting and But then I have to assume that when it was a handheld thing, you were like, okay, I now I'm in my element, I'm good. So So they would see the I was gonna say, so they're yeah. So it wasn't like y y you weren't doing the work, it's just that, okay, this is in your strong suit, but you got a strong suit. So I think once I think that's when I started getting a little bit of respect is when we had to do like these and usually w like the the handheld kind of stuff is like when there's this huge shoot shoot up scene or or so I was able to do some s I think like so right before we shut down, we had this shot with the director was Greg. so Greg is like, I wanna do this one or so Maddox is like, yeah, I I gotta like I got Paul Inca do it. So I do this like handheld one or we like twelve takes You know what I mean? It's like the car drives up. I'm outside. I follow them in. I w I walk past Angela and I'm following Jerome in. And like some people are stealing from him. And he goes and he grabs them and like throws them to the ground. And it's just huge, like fight, he pulls a gun, he shoots the you know what I mean, spinning around. There's lot to it. It's so much to this scene, like shooting like 360 and So twelve takes and the where they got it and he's showing it to Damson and like everything is great and then anyway, so I think the next day we shoot and then we get shut down from COVID. And but I felt like I left, like I felt like the grips were like, Good job you know what I mean? Like good job. Like even the hardcore, you know what I mean, was just like yeah, all right, nice nice job and I'm like, shit, you know? Yeah, yeah. So And then, Xavier was always trying to help me. Even they had the dolly on the road and and he'd be like, You wanna do this shot? And I'm like, No, I'm afraid and and so when we shut down, Gretchen had bought I guess the small like these small wheels. like a practice set of wheels for home. Yeah, yeah. Wheels, right? A little like a little gear head. Right. So I asked her I think she had put it out there that she had it. And I was like, Can I borrow it? And she was like, Yeah, I went and picked it up. And I set that up in my apartment. And for months I just while we were shut down. It's good use of time right there. I just play I played with this thing for hours. And when we came back, it seemed so easy after that. Like, because the stuff I was doing on my wall was like these little intricate moves. And like it was the hardest thing for me, like was someone standing up. That's friendly. You know what I mean? But everything else I was like I like I loved working with the wheels and we and that's what it was because we have four cameras and two of were dedicated to the doll you know, the dolly. So the dolly grip because they wanted to keep us the footprint away from the actors. Yeah. So it and Manolo, you're saying When we came back from COVID, Xavier wasn't available anymore and Manolo came in. Yeah. And so it was me and Manolo and we we was just two cameras. So it was just Dolly Griff's are just like It was amazing. And it was I just if you mean a no. So you you you guys were in another room, dolly griffs were No, no, not all the time. Or maybe the back the back of the room anyway, away from it. Yeah. I try to keep an eye because sometimes you can kinda get lost a little bit more. Yeah, sure. No, no, absolutely. But but in other words, the idea you're saying just to not have many people near the actors 'cause of COVID, the dolly griffs are moving the dolly around. There was a Ronin on each dolly and you were just remotely operating. Right. from either another room or from the back of the room or whatever. Yeah. So you you were Put the so it's great that you most of the season it was like that. Was it really? I didn't it's funny, I have to go back and watch that and see if I notice the difference, which I'm sure I will. But I just knowing that. yeah, I remember it's funny when we all came back, everybody was like, No, operators are gonna be seven states away and you're gonna be at home and do you know. So you're looking at a monitor through like a visor and like glasses and but like you said, it it it just It it it kicks your butt into gear. you gotta you gotta do the work and that's that's what it is now. So you Yeah, it just felt good on the wheels natural again. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. man, I loved being on the wheels. And then and when you came in for your season and then it was just like, we only have like one roan and I was like, Wait, what? We're doing what? Yeah. I have to be on the dollar. I wanna be on that, you know. So Yeah. It was it everything is just an adjustment, man. And I think season four for me was like where and working with Manolo, it was just I didn't have to I was able to kinda calm my brain down. Because, you know, being a a a a black female, you know, camera operator, it you know there's a lot of us out there now, but I I think at the t you know, at the time there weren't a lot you know there was some OGs like, you know, Michelle Crenshaw and you know Diane Diane Farrington. Farrington, yeah. so there y there was a lot, Sabelle, Martin, you know what I mean? So a lot of operators, D Ps. but I was I felt like if I messed up, like I was messing it up for everybody. Like, no, we tried you and so So you felt the weight of everybody else on you. Like you think that's what got in your head a little bit? yeah, yeah, yeah. I put it on me myself. No, sure but it had to be perfect. Everything had to be perfect. You put it on your yourself, but it's also just out there that you you don't want you don't wanna i if you mess up, it's not just you messing up. It's it's it's a black woman messing up, like you said. And true or not, that that that weighed on you. Yeah. Which is 'cause I felt like, you know, Wow. Like you have so much to prove already, you know what I mean? Like I just felt like I would especially when I first stepped on a snowfall, I felt like to looks like I was like, What? Like She doesn't know what she's doing. And then and then it I could I was showing that I didn't know what I was doing. And then they found people knew I came from unscripted. So it was just like I was gonna say my guess is, and I don't know anything, but my guess is it was probably more she's coming from unscripted that that people were concerned about because then they're like, Does she know how this works? Does she know how to work with a dolly group? Yeah. Because we all I am DB each other now, right? You get on a show and you're like, Who's this? Who's Yeah, We all do that. But so so do you still fight that, do you think, or have you gotten now that you've got enough things under your belt. No, I feel like I feel like I'm pretty confident. in and I I think confidence is a big thing to and and to get out of your head. Yep. like know you y you know you can do it, what I mean? And and to me it was like I'm not proving this anymore. And now I think there's always gonna be a hurdle, right? So for me it was like Just trying not to be perfect. Also, sorry, backing up, during COVID, the SOC had a mentorship program. That Gretchen Gretchen is like so Gretchen told me about the mentorship program. Yeah, so so so like I she's like you should like g go in for the the mentorship program. So I I apply, I hear back from Jeff Haley, right? Jeez. And he's like, Hey, so I'm running the mentorship program. there's a whole bunch of people that wanna be in it. The problem is is because of COVID, you won't won't have people be able to come to set. We could do it over Zoom. You know, if you're interested in that, then I'll put you on a list. If you wanna wait until things open up and and get back to normal, then you know, you can do that. And so I was like, Well, I don't the way it was going, I'm like, I don't think things are gonna open up anytime. So I said, All right, well I'll do the the Zoom thing and he was like, All right, I'll put you on the list and we'll try and hook you up with with an operator. And then like later on he he gets back to me and was like, I'm sorry, like, I can't find anyone to, you know, hook you up with Yeah, I don't yeah, I don't have enough mentors. He was like, so, you know, would you mind if like I was your mentor? And like I literally almost dropped You know what I mean? I was just like Jeff is not only a great operator, but he just, as you know, it's like he just has a way of like really Explaining things and breaking things down. He's an extremely intelligent individual. And I'm telling you, I was coming off of the crash and burn with with the beginning of snowfall. Could couldn't have better. And so I get Jeff Haley and we almost don't talk about anything he becomes my psychologist. Just the ment the mental game. But that but that's truthfully everything you've told me and everything I know about you as well. It's like that's the only area that you had a problem, Well, no, there's a lot of things, but You can always be better. But I'm saying you were pulling all the rest off. you can get b I I I can get better, you can get better, whatever. But that's what was holding you up. So it's amaz and it doesn't surprise me at all that he talked to you and went, All right, here's what we gotta work on. Yeah, it we when I spoke to him, I was just our talks and I miss it too, because our talks I felt was so genuine. Yeah. And he helped me so much to kinda get over that that hurdle. And so when I went back, I went back with so much more confidence. you know, i I wasn't with Xavier, but I was with Manolo. Like I knew how to do the wheels, like everything just seemed to kind of be falling into place. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I felt like that's kind of where I was learned things started to slow down 'cause I I felt like I was jumping onto a moving train. Yeah. And things started because snowfall is super fast paced. It was like, here's the the size. And you're like, we got eight pages and four moves, it was just No, it's a b it's a big show. But just because I don't want to go past it and you mentioned it, it's worth mentioning and I don't mention enough actually. for anybody who's listening, SOC i is just a phenomenal organization. Society of camera operators. And they have I think they have a they have a y you you have to become a member to get access to all the videos and the mentorship and whatever, but I think they have like a student membership, they have an associate Yeah, they have an associate membership. Associate membership and then they have the full membership, which is, you know, if you've been a camera operator for five years. But if you're not you can get in on one of those sort of not lower tiers, but different tiers. And and you the mentorship is an incredible program. I mentored a couple of people in loan And the videos they have. Because when I first joined the SOC, I got invited to the award show and I'm sitting at a table and you know, I'm sitting next to a a guy who's an agent. And I'm like, Ooh, you know, like, do you know, like who do you represent? And he's like, And I got like three guys up there that are getting, you know, that are nominated for camera operator of the year, and I'm like, Wow, and I Who like do you do who do you take on? And he was like, no, I only t I only do steady cam operators. I don't I don't remember his name. He was nice, but he was like I only only steady cam operator. So I was like, okay. Yeah. So and then everybody I f felt like was going up there was like a steady cam operator. And so at the time I was thinking, I don't think this is for me. You know what I mean? I don't Yeah. How how do I fit into sure this organization? And it ended up like you know, basically during COVID is when I learned snap. they got all this educational stuff and and to the point that you just said, look look a lot of people a lot a lot of people who are A camera operators now happen to be study cam operators, but there are also a ton of operators, Mitch Dubin, Don Devine, yeah, Dan Gold is retired, but he's in there who who are not study cam operators who are some of the best A camera operators on the on the planet. And and B camera operators too and whatever, and students and and you name it. There's just so much information there. But that's so great to hear that that was like that turned the tide for you. For sure. And that's what I mean that's what we all should be doing for each other and what the SOC exists for is, you know, mentors mentorship on the larger level of teaching and all that stuff. It's great. Yeah, because when I really when I felt like I was coming up in before I went over to reality, I felt like people weren't helping as much. You know what I mean? Like opera you know what I mean? It like just anything like me. Mean you you felt like you were kinda on your own, you're saying? I felt like I didn't have the encouragement. The support. Right? Yeah. So I saw like I when I when I first saw Steady Cam, I was like, I w I wanna do that. You know what I mean? But I I didn't feel like I had the encouragement. You know what I mean? Like I I spoke to one steady cam operator and he was like, Yeah, it costs a hundred thousand dollars and here I am, I live in a a two bedroom with eight people. You know what I mean? I'm I'm like, I I can't afford you know what I mean? Like it just seemed like like I went into like a f a place that sell Ferraris and was like, Yeah, I don't if you wanna own one of these, you know? And I'm like, I can't that's Yeah. So I just put it out my head, but I kinda wish because listen to other people's stories sometimes I'm like, I wish I figured it out, a lot of people did. a lot of people didn't have money and they figured it out in a way to get a rig or rent a rig or something like that. So I that that is a regret that I I didn't go that route. So if I would tell anyone anything, it'd be really like don't let If you're c confident like if this is what you want to do, 'cause some people say it's what they want to do and it's not really you could tell like they don't have the passion. But if you have that passion for it, then it'll work itself out. Like it'll find a way. You spend this money up front and y it will find a way to pay it off and you know what I mean? Like if you're if if you have that tenacity and that drive, I feel like you can make it work. Yeah. Yeah, no question about it. Well I'll tell you, so you w you you did you came back from COVID, you did snowfall. Then you did you go and do something with Maddox? Did you guys did you White Men Can't Jump? yeah, yeah, we did yeah, we did White Men Can't Jump over the over the summer. That was fun too, 'cause that was some handheld and some you know, w a lot of people were from Snowfall. I worked on it. Yeah. Well and that was sort of the same well, camera wise, that was sort of the same crew, right? Somewhat from snowfall. So you were sort of with with family stuff. So we had Dennis Noyaz, he came in as as A camera, steady camera. And he was amazing. Like that dude is so funny, you know what I mean? He has his his music and he's building his rig and he's just like, he'll work with you. You know what I mean? Like it just felt like a partnership. Yeah. And I you know, there hasn't really been I I've been lucky, man. I haven't really been with an operator that's just like No, I'm not giving you an you know what I mean? an a I've heard of it, that doesn't work with you. Yeah, yeah, doesn't make space for you. I think those days are going a away a little bit. There was that point where it was like, I am the A camera operator and you will do what you can around me, and it's like now we're all like, let's just all work together and get the best work we can. I'm not gonna lie, when I because Maddox, it it it doesn't really matter to him, A or B. Yeah. Which is great. Coming from unscripted where you have so many cameras, like there's A, who's usually like the D P you know, he'll that's his camera. But all the other cameras, B to G, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter like you're like if your G camera doesn't mean like you're like way down on the line. You it it doesn't matter. You got the shot, you got the shot. So coming into scripted as then working with Maddie's. I didn't know there was a difference between A and B. Yeah. I just thought that they were just letters. Yeah. Well they should be. that's the truth. That's a great that's a great situation. Yeah, I did I I didn't know. It's the ideal situation, let's put it that way. But coming and working on other shows now, then I see like okay. Yeah. All right, so like A and then I'll stand back and I'll let him get his thing and then I'll commit you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, there's no question. But so I was gonna say you did White Man Can't Jump and then and then you came back to Snowfall and you guys all I I I came in it was great working with all you g such a great crew. But the thing that I remember very, very specifically was we finished Snowfall and then I think you went I don't know how soon after and you did Grays Anatomy. Yeah, I got the call for five episodes or something like that or I got the call for Grays and that you know that situation was like they have been through I don't know I don't know the reasons why people were leaving and stuff. but I I was day playing on Mayans, like Vanessa, she was a DP over there and she called me in. and that that show is a handheld show. And that that show shoots on like they were shooting on like anamorphic and their whole setup, which was great because they were able to like move the eyepiece way forward. Because you couldn't use any kind of rig, so just said stick your shoulder pad on the bottom of a plate. Yeah. But but they're the the way they had it set up was super balanced and I loved like their environment over there. I was like, man, 'cause they I think it was this season five and they were f they were wrapping it up and and I I was like, This is amazing, like this environment you guys have. Yeah. It's just awesome. Everybody's trying to help everybody. And I absol I I did like I don't know, maybe five or six days with them, but it was just an amazing time. But in that time I was got a call from Gray's Anatomy and I went in there and you know, it was different. but I don't know, I just hit it off with them. I think a lot of things is like a personality thing. You know what I mean? And I think that could have been a big hurdle for some people. personality wise they might not have yeah it might not have worked out for them. But I went over there and it was great. It was like I'm working with Steven who's A camera and Greg was C camera and and me and me and my my dolly grip. There's nothing on that set that he didn't know. And he is a hustler and we got along great and so yeah. And then the thing that I remember was I I don't know whether I called you or you called me whatever, but it doesn't make a difference. I think I hit you up for a a a a a recommended because they wanted names. Yeah, maybe that was it. And so I gave like your name. Yeah, I I gave I'm Which is of course how all this works is someone has a job and they're like, hey, call so and so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I gave it But I just remember you telling me which which you said you said it was so great because as much as you loved Maddox and Alex and Gina and all those guys, you you had to go into a set where you really knew nobody. Right. And it's like sync okay. Now n 'cause I think there is that thing of when you're surrounded by your friends all the time, there's probably that part of you and I know early on it was for me, that you're like, Yeah, I'm doing this, but am I doing this? Like or people helping me. And when you get thrown into a situation where it's like, Look, you got the job, keep it, you know, or or we'll get someone else, then you're like, All right, I actually like in talking to you, I guess what I'm trying to say, and I'm not really saying it, is I what I heard from you was you were like, Yeah, I I did this. Like I came in here, I nailed it, they're happy with me. I'm doing you know, you did the rest of the episodes of the season or whatever. And I was so psyched. I was I just I went in there like w because I knew they had been going through a lot of B ops. Which is the best way to call it. That I kinda went in thinking I you know, I'm not gonna last with this either, you know what I mean? It was just whatever, I'll just go in. Low expectations? Yeah, yeah, yeah. if I get it, I get it. If I don't, I don't. You know what I mean? I kinda went in like that. But you were you weren't in your head, right? You were just like, No, I know what I'm doing. I'm gonna go in and do it. If they like me, they'll what I noticed was they have a little Scorpio crane. And so the A camera's on that. And so when he's on that or he's doing steady cam, the wheels are just sitting there. So I was like, hey, you mind if You mind if I use the wheels? So so he's like, take whenever you want. So was like, cool. So I'm on the wheels now. I got the airy head because I haven't I've only worked with the Ronin, which is a remote head. So I haven't worked with the Airy Head. I've never been like on the camera with the with the head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I get on this and I'm on a I'm on a peewee. 'Cause I'm it's so he's So small. He has the big he has the Fisher. Yeah. But I'm so I'm on the peewee. Which is the classic big camera. Dude. You're on the small and you're like falling off the the the deli because it's so small. It's so small, right? So I'm doing this shot, so I put it on. I'm like, I want it. So they put it on, and the shot is is the guy comes in the door, right? He walks over to like this wall, he comes back over and talks to someone that's sitting down, right? So He's kinda tall. So now I'm standing up, right? And and we're dollying and he c he comes in and then we're moving and then he goes and he talks to the guy sitting down and the and we drop d because I gotta get the over. Yeah. And so now he booms down and I am like like a crap. I'm now the the the wheels are by my ankles. Right. Standing up leaning over Eloise. I am leaning over, hunched over, wondering why you're doing this. Trying to get this shot. And I'm like, fuck, like I like this isn't the right tool for this job. And I because I just wanted to do it so bad. Yeah. And I'm like, hold so the first shot obviously is no good. So the D B Jean, so Jean and Byron. So Jean is like, that was a little squirrely thing. Yeah and I was like, Yeah, I can get so we do a second take and it's a little better, but I'm just trying to position I am I'm like I am bucked right now. Yeah. And I'm looking around, I'm in panic, I'm about to hit the like bring the head, bring the head but I didn't like my pride wasn't letting me d and then I felt like I it would be too much time. You know what I mean? 'Cause like they're ready. You don't want to disrupt everything. Yeah, like the time to make those changes are when the 'Cause they do a lot of second team stuff. Yeah. So the time to make those changes are then. By the time you act when the actors are there. You don't want to know. So I'm like, I gotta make this work. So I made it work, but then I realized because I didn't even realize until he was on his dolly and I was looking and I was like, wait a minute, that booms up and down with the head. You know what I mean? So the he's the It booms up and down. He's his seat is on the Well, the big dolly, the seat goes with the camera, so you don't have to do what you're doing. His seat is on the camera, so he's just like everything is just fine. Like his and me, I'm on a Pee-wee where my seat is like up here locked and like I'm just trying to do all these kind of crazy dances. So as much as I wanted to use the wheels, I definitely was paying attention to the rehearsals and seeing like what and like w if I saw that it wasn't too crazy, then I'll be like, all right, we'll put the wheels on but I I would just be with the But it's it's also for people who are starting out it's an important thing because you do get excited about I really want to do but you gotta make sure it's the right it's the right thing for what you're doing, right? It's the right th y you you hear it, yeah, but then at least when you get excited for something, that kind of just yeah, you you kinda lose focus. So you the thing is is you can't lose focus. Yeah. on these it is and Gray's Anatomy moves pretty pretty fast too. So you just can't lose focus. You know what I mean? Like you have to kinda be in it. Like for me it's like reading the script like my memory's not that great. So I have to read the script like a couple of times and then, you know, and then familiarize myself with the sides and watch the rehearsals and you know what I mean? And then decide like what I wanna do. And it you know, as I said, like going on that show there were the grip department my dolly grip was just it it's it was more of a like, Hey, what do you think? or I need to be over here, That's great. I just felt like I I was working out a better way to talk to Yeah. To communicate with them. Which you're because they want to help you. You're constantly learning that, right? And it's different. And you may go next week, well, not next week 'cause we're in a strike, but when you go back to work. Yeah. it maybe you may you may have all that skill set and and come into another dolly group who just works a different way. And then you gotta go, Okay, now I gotta work this way. 'Cause some people are into it. Just like I think j j j like any job, you can tell like who's really into it and who and who's not. And and the people that are not, it's like I think I is trying to figure out what common ground we can have in and it to to to make it work together, to make us be able to achieve the shot together because it's not just me, it's us. So, you know, like I feel like sometimes if I get, you know, if I have a dolly grip that's not really into it and then you know, I I'll start talking to him and maybe he will get into it. And then if if he feels like he's just not there just pushing me around. I feel like making decisions together, I I I felt like that works. Yeah, involving them in the process, there's no question. Well Pauline, this was this this was really fascinating to hear all this. it's it's coming from sc unscripted is like such a different world than I'm used to. So it's so cool to hear and there's so much valuable here. I'll leave you with the question that I leave everybody with. someone starting out, someone trying to get into the business, you know, their their whole career is ahead of them. What advice would you have to give them to succeed and or what do you wish you knew when you were first starting out that now? I I wish I knew that, you know, like the world isn't gonna end if you know you you mess up or you you get on a job that isn't going the way you want. You know what mean? Like everybody has been there. I think that's the best like no matter where someone is, they started somewhere and th you know, it I always feel like it's like Instagram. Like you look at Instagram and everybody's happy and everybody's like, you know, you're like, why am I not that happy? And why you know what I mean? Like they're out partying and how come I you know, I'm not doing that. So you know, but and then when they the cameras are off, you know, they they they're they could be just, you know, like things just go back to normal for them. Like they're not always happy all the time. And so Camera operators don't just start at the top. And I have people ask me, what do you you know, like how do I become a camera operator? And I almost feel like you maybe you not don't want to talk to me about it because my route was so long. It took me so long to get from A to B. But it all comes, I guess, when you're ready. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.