Dave C: On today's episode, we'll talk about the importance of confidence, balancing family life and set life, Scream Queens, BMF, and of course, that classic of classics, Mega Piranha. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website, theop.io, is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Lock it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Victor 30 Echo Tech 2. Hey Mark. Hey Mark. Camera set. Background. Hello and welcome back to the OP Podcast, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I'm Dave Komides and ⁓ coming to you over the internet today with a friend ⁓ in Atlanta. I'm I'm not in Atlanta at the moment, so thus the internet. ⁓ Spencer Hutchins, ⁓ who ⁓ we've known each other for quite some time. He's a really ⁓ fantastic operator ⁓ and cinematographer as well. He shot a bunch of stuff. ⁓ some of his credits, but not all by any means. BMF, She Hulk, 911, Die Hart, Scream Queens, and I have to ask him about this Titanic 2, because apparently there was more, and ⁓ Mega Piranha, which just sounds so much better than Piranha. ⁓ 2016 winner of the Emerging Cinematographers Award is And ⁓ I will post a link to this on the podcast page. ⁓ he had for ⁓ a couple of years actually a podcast called Protecting the Frame that I had forgotten I was on actually when I was looking at it, about forty episodes. ⁓ and and really in many ways probably on some mental level a precursor to what I'm doing here. So ⁓ without further ado, ⁓ Spencer, thanks for thanks for jumping on the podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me. Excited to be here. Yeah, it's good to see you. I have seven minutes. I should say Spencer and I met on screencreens 'cause I came back to LA and you were on A camera and I was on B camera and we had a blast. That was I and for me as a as a younger operator and having nothing close to the experience that you had, that was kind of a fun dynamic. We had a great time. It was and actually it was one of those things where 'cause ⁓ Andrew Mitchell was was on it and he he stepped off and I took over for him. It was one of those things where I I ⁓ I was like, I hope I hope he's okay with it because I don't have any problem with like, you know, with with with you know you being younger than I am. And yeah, we had a good time. It was it's a revolving door of of amazing B camera operators on my second show. Exactly. ⁓ so tell me how what t how'd you get into the business? What's your what's your story? Yeah. So from from early on, my my dad did a lot of videos for our church growing up, and so kind of got the the bite from that point of becoming fascinated of being able to tell a story through the medium and ⁓ just kind of obsessed with making videos and eventually somehow convinced my parents to let me go to a film school, which to this day I'm astonished I could do. What what film school? I went to full sale university university in ⁓ in Florida. ⁓ yeah, yeah. I've s I don't know much about that. I've I've seen the ads on it. Is it a good is it a good school? I mean, ⁓ you did you learn a lot? Depends on who you ask. Yeah. I ⁓ yeah, it's a it's a what I appreciate about it, it's a two year it's a four year degree in two years. And how they do that is you go to school around the clock, which is a great prep for the you know, the industry. So ⁓ that in and of itself was was a good ⁓ lesson. But what I've found was they have a great PR department and so they really got a lot of people in the door and the people who ended up succeeding past the door ⁓ were those who put in a lot of work outside of the class. So kinda dependent. It worked out great for me. But yeah. Yeah. So yeah, then ⁓ I I convinced three classmates to move out to Los Angeles with me after that. And ⁓ so I can keep rent low and got out to LA and started trying to make things happen. So ha I mean, did you get when you got out to LA, did you know people or how'd you get ⁓ how'd you get your foot in door? ⁓ yes and no. So I didn't I didn't know anyone that ended up being helpful. ⁓ however, my my I I thought I struck gold, Dave. I thought I was I was gonna be hitting it hard quick. ⁓ because my best friend's dad was the youth minister of Miss Bonnie Curtis, who was the assistant to Steven Spielberg. ⁓ well that's right. I mean that's just a shoe I'm in. Like I'm in. You're there. You're there. I mean you don't you don't even have to apply, right? Yeah. That's right. That's right. So I had to get I got connected with her and got canceled on for my first time, which was a classic, right? And then I did end up meeting with her and I'll never forget it because I didn't I had never had like a cappuccino before. But I ordered I was gonna order whatever she ordered. I was gonna do whatever she did. I was just trying to fit in here. I'm from Texas. I had no idea what this world was. So she would s you know, stir up her foam. I would do the same. ⁓ nothing came from it, but she was a very nice lady. Well, you're lucky y all she ordered was a cappuccino, I guess. Maybe like a flaming shot of something or other. That was a great one I would have known what to do. Would I mean did she was she just basically like Humoring you sort of and hi, how you doing? Get out of here? I mean, maybe to some extent, but she I mean she gives them good advice. I was I was so fresh. I don't even know if I could have absorbed any actual wisdom she had to offer ⁓ at that point. Did coming out of school, did you ⁓ or going out to LA, like did you did you have a I mean, this is what I want to do, or were you one of all of us who was like, I want to direct? And I mean, you know, or did you did you have a thought? I did get the itch. To direct while I was in school. I remember a directing class and I was like, this is it. Like I this is what I'm gonna do. And then like a week later, we had a lighting class and it blew my mind because it it did not for one second occur to me that they lit these movies. And that's why they look so great. Like I was so naive to the process of what this looked like. It just blew me away. And I was I was just I was so fascinated with it. So ⁓ the camera and just the look side of movies ⁓ was very clear by the time I got to Los Angeles. So that's cool. So that was that was the goal. So so what j so so she hooked you up with Spielberg and ⁓ and that was people people s say it's Mitch Duban is actually me. ⁓ I hear you. Yeah. So Mitch isn't gonna be happy that that got up but did but s so did she give you any practical advice? Like can you can you share anything that she she turned you onto? You know what, she ⁓ she did actually i if it was actually advice I was given that was actually reinforced later on with Miss Jamie Lee, ⁓ who you and I both know. ⁓ but she I forget how she told the story, but essentially her point was if you don't have any clue like the dec what you you know, running for bagels or whatever it is you're about to go out there and do, if you don't know what people want, just get what you would want and then you can at least have an opinion about it. Like you can at least Tell them why you did something, right? Which is great because then later on, season one of Scream Queens, before you were able to join us, ⁓ I'll never forget we had some director was trying to give I don't know if he was intimidated by Jamie or ⁓ just didn't really know what he wanted. But should we say the ⁓ Jamie Lee Curtis for anybody who doesn't realize who you're talking about? Yeah. But yeah. Sorry. I d so I don't know what it was, but on it was a late on Friday, we're all ready to go home and he wasn't getting what he wanted, apparently. And so it just like take after take, but no much under direction. She just stopped and I I just happened to be where they were and she was like, I forget the guy's name, but hey man, have a dang opinion. Just just have opinion. And then we can go from there, you know? I could totally see her saying that. And I took that. Like I I actually needed that advice that I was a young operator who was I mean, I knew what I was doing, but I was also timid and it's like just have an opinion about something and then you can move you can move on. So I thought it was pretty great. No, that is actually really good. Actually that's one of those weird things about operating because like I mean, hopefully you have an opinion of what you like and what you don't like, but at the same time, part of our job is to go, but if that's not what you like, I've got to put that on the side and do what you you know, so there's that weird thing, right? Like it it's a balance, right? It's like, how do I convey to this person that I am capable of coming up with good creative ideas and at the same time I'm I'm here to support you. Like it's it's a it's a it's a balance for sure. And also, you know, typically if you're coming up the ranks of a camera department, the you know, if you're pulling focus, that is not one of those roles that you're necessarily like being asked your opinion about creative aspects. So you know what I mean? So like it kind of a a change in gears in some sense, ⁓ to do that transition well. Yeah. So did so but you started did you work your way up in the camera camera crew then? I mean, how'd you get your first show? Yeah, I I did. I was fortunate enough to to you know, ⁓ preparation meeting opportunity at certain moments that we can talk about that I was able to go through those pretty quickly. ⁓ but but I, you know, I didn't know anything else to do other than at at the time it was Craigslist, it was Mandy.com, it was LA 411. I was just fifty dollars a day. I was my only rule was that I was only going to go out for a camera position. It could now that could be a camera PA. That could be a random person who gets to like talk to the camera people, right? But it was like, I'm going to be camera focused so that people know me for the camera position. ⁓ I don't know if that was actually helpful or not, but that was that was kind of my my mindset. So and ⁓ and so I mean d is that kind of how you learn learned how to start pulling focus and and loading and all that stuff? I mean you just learn as you go or did you a lot of well I did have some experience of that in school. Like we did get to touch some some film. We get to I I did pull a lot of focus. I was kind a lot of people in school were wanting to direct all the movies and by that point I'd kind of figured out that I wanted to touch the the camera with all the stuff. So I was I was kind of the resident focused polar, ⁓ which ended up being super helpful, obviously. ⁓ but yeah. How long did it take you to get I mean, did you did you do the normal like were you always going in for something different or did you do the normal like I'm a I'm a I'm a PA, I'm a loader, I'm a I'm a second, I'm a first, I'm a you know, did you work up that way or was it all a good plus? It might have I guess it was probably a little more all over the place than just straight through. ⁓ But there's also like before I joined anything union, like I was doing, you know, a a commercial one day as a second loader and then maybe operating on a music video and then going back to pull and focus on a short film, right? It was all the any opportunity that you're you're just grabbing for, right? To meet the right person at the right time. ⁓ so it was a little bit of everything. And then once I was able to join the union, it might it was probably a little more of a normal progression ⁓ through that. I think don't you think that non union stuff though is valuable because like getting thrown into this and thrown into that and just having to like sink or swim? Absolutely. ⁓ I I I do think there is ⁓ a large portion of trial by fire that really f and maybe that's an individual like threshold for everyone else. I thrived on that. And there's there's to be fair, there is definitely I think something where if you're thrown into too much too early, you you could definitely burn some bridges. ⁓ I think there's some ⁓ discernment for that. ⁓ but I I think that's the in in a in a world where everything is fast paced, ⁓ why would you learn it any other way is is through being thrown into situations where you have to kind of adapt to a fast pace. ⁓ so I found that to be ⁓ crazy valuable. I I I found myself in really interesting situations, you know, flying in a helicopter where the day before I didn't know I was gonna be doing that. And, you know, just like amazing things that you could only get to if you were willing to jump on any opportunity that came your way. So absolutely. And some of which, like maybe that one, we probably shouldn't have been doing back then, but we all did it at at some point. I'm sort of glad those days are behind us. ⁓ but ⁓ we all made it. So ⁓ were you in the union when you worked on ⁓ Mega Piranha and Titanic too? Where was that? Those were non union shows. Okay. And ⁓ that was that was not James Cameron. That was ⁓ yeah. Yeah, those were curiosity. Was it that they raised the Titanic and and did something else with it? I didn't look it up, but I'm sort of fascinated by the Well I honestly I I can't say that I've ever watched it. ⁓ but I wanna say I wanna say I remember It was like the exact same story and like but we can do it this time. We can build a stronger, better ship and the same thing happens. Like there's no my there's nothing that changes. It's the same movie, less money and again that no one asked for. Well I'm I'm definitely gonna look this up. I ⁓ now back then were you I mean were these things were these ⁓ were you on the knob on the camera next to the camera operator? Yeah, yeah. When I was pulling fo and I don't remember ex like on that those particular jobs that you name if I was a second or first, but in in those worlds, yeah, I was I was on a knob ⁓ next to the camera. There might be a time where it got really exciting when they bring out a bar tech and you get to, you know, pull pull wir wirelessly on a a tool that may or may not work. ⁓ that was always exciting. ⁓ but yeah. Yeah, on the knob there. ⁓ because I mean ⁓ the reason I asked is because I think that I think that's something that's been lost because I think when you were you were pulling focus and you were connected to the camera, like there was just stuff that you learned by osmosis that doesn't happen anymore, right? Like when you're, you know, twenty feet away looking at a monitor playing a video game. And nothing against anybody who's doing that now because it's a different world. But ⁓ Yeah, I I agree. I do think it's it's it's more of it like I I romanticize what that used to be like. And at the same time, if I were going back through that process, there's no way I would get on the knob. And you can't you can't keep up. Like you of course you're you're gonna do, you know, a monitor over the side of absolutely. ⁓ but yet but I think you're right. I think I think there's ⁓ much like any generations that I you know I missed out on before I came, I'm there's plenty of ⁓ relative things that are missed out that you wouldn't do anyways, right? Yeah, but but I do wonder it like what transferable ⁓ skills were adopted, just being able to be close to a camera. While someone else was operating it, maybe that's a thing. Yeah. Well, I th I think that also like there was just that thing of like you heard the conversations between the Dolly grip and and the and the operator, which they don't hear anymore and and and there was that thing of it's changed for a little bit, but w I mean don't know about you, but but when we made the jump to digital, I felt like for a long time they were always chasing focus only because like The dolly would start to move, but they're looking at a monitor and it's like, ⁓ that we're moving. You know, now they've gotten much better at it with the technology and and whatever. But for a while it was like that. And whereas when you were on the dolly, like you're like, ⁓ we're moving. Like, yeah. I'm I better turn this ⁓ while we're moving. You know, I mean, there's a there was a connection that that's missing there. That's yeah, and that's really interesting. I I feel like when I was first operating on on large enough things to where the focus puller cared enough about being sharp all the time. it there was almost like a timid sense of doing of reacting to anything that may not have been rehearsed because you didn't want to throw anyone else under the bus. Like that was kind of a weird dynamic. ⁓ interesting. Yeah, yeah. And maybe that's just me being empath too empathetic to a friend of mine that's pulling, I just should have not done that. But but I do remember that feeling, you know, and nowadays I I feel like that's probably changed a little bit, whether that be technology advancing or just focused pullers continuing to get better and better at what they at the impossible job that they do. It's a little bit of both, but yeah, it is a completely I don't understand how they do it. It's it's beyond me. I I remember I remember explaining that to my wife for the first time, you know, 15 years ago about what that job was. And she was like, that's that job's impossible. How what do you mean do you mean just in general or the or once you've gotten a digital? It it just in general. Like I was trying to explain to how they're chasing a plane that they can't see. And she was The incredible thing to me is look, it it's weird because on the one hand I look at ⁓ like great focus pullers a lot like I used to work with like Norman Parker. I don't know if you ever ran into him or not. I don't know. But ⁓ he was just phen phenomenal. And but the thing is they would constantly be calculating depth of field in their head, right? Like so they they wouldn't they wouldn't be going, I need to know exactly where we are so I can put the focus there. They're like, Well, I got this to this, but now I got that. It's like they were doing like complex math in their head. That's when you had your Kelly Will next to you and you were Yeah. And it's just like I don't know how they did that. And yet those guys, the older guys, look at what the new guys do and go, I don't know how they do that. It's like it's like it's really weird. It's a totally different That's really interesting. I mean I guess that's that's just ⁓ more evidence of how the skills of that craft have changed so drastically, right? It's just almost a different different craft. Let's face it, like any of the any of the focus players that we know right now, they're not doing depth of field in their head because there is no depth of field. There's just focus and autofocus. Yeah, there's no depth of field anywhere. So that that whole Kelly wheel thing is like that's a whole industry that's dead. ⁓ but hang on a wall somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, what are you gonna do? ⁓ so what ⁓ how what how long did it take you to make the jump up to to camera operator? Yeah, ⁓ that's a great question. I trying to think how long it actually did take. ⁓ like I joined the union pretty close to a year after I got out to Los Angeles. So that was pretty quick. And then yeah, yeah. And and it was one like I joined what was it? You could have thirty union days and a hundred non-union days. So I d I went the non-union route because that's how I was working and I was willing to do all the paperwork done. And then so I could just sit on those papers for, you know, I think it was like a hundred days or something a year. I don't remember what it was. So I just sat on ⁓ until an opportunity came around and and first one did, I like, let's let's do this. So like I knew I knew that's where I wanted to be. Did you get in as an operator or as an assistant? No, I was an assistant. Yeah. I assisted for for still a good a good while there. So it had to been, I don't know, five or six years until I started operating union stuff. I I've I was always shooting or operating on the side of course, but ⁓ Yeah. Something that. And and and then it what so when I ran into you on Scream Queens, how long have you been operating for? That was the second season of the the show that I started. So season one of Scream Queens ⁓ was my first season operating on a unishow. And I I don't want to say I was super busy between season one and season two. I don't think I don't think there's a lot going on. Maybe a pilot, but ⁓ so that was probably my second show. I didn't realize that. I have to be honest, if I had known that I would have looked much more down in my nose at you than I did. But ⁓ You probably should have. You probably should have. In retrospect, there were a lot of telltale signs. ⁓ no, but ⁓ no, that didn't I I I gotta tell you, I walked in there and I was like, No, this guy absolutely knows his n knows what he's doing and is on top of it. And I mean, you know, like look I mean, just numerically you're you're younger than I am, so I knew you didn't have as many years in, but that doesn't mean anything. You know, you you ran the set. And of course Joaquin ⁓ Sedilla was there and and I know you guys are good friends and that was a great relationship and Yeah, and that and that and that would you know, that obviously gave me a lot of confidence is is the man in charge who who everyone knew was in charge, you know. Joaquin knows how he works. ⁓ and you know, ⁓ he he trusted me and I think that helped with and also like it I tell you what, if there's any advice to y anyone young out there, like just not being a jerk gets you a long way. Like, you know. So that's that's a huge advantage. So ⁓ or or the opposite that I'll that I'll say to that is if you are a jerk, you're not gonna get b well, actually that's not true. I I I don't wanna say that 'cause we do know people, unfortunately, who somehow seem to rise above You better be really good. You better be really good. ⁓ so if you're not really good, you definitely have to be a good person. ⁓ but ⁓ that's why I was trying to be such a nice person. There's no question about that. So back then you were conventional operating and then at some point you decided to pick up a study cam, right? Yeah. Yeah. I saw a buddy's paycheck. I'm just kidding. Nah Well No, that's back in the day, not anymore. Yeah, right. Yeah. ⁓ so what what was the what was the decision? I do remember talking to a few Staticam guys who were who were that excellent at it, like Andrew was. He was he was one of the first, like just really talented Steady Kim guys that saw and was like, this is amazing. And and And Andrew's unbelievable. And and I say I I say whenever I can that I I was the person who originally trained Andrew. And I take all credit for all of the work that he ever did. He was my assistant on a show in Texas. And I had I literally on that show got got the pro. So it was the first time I'd ever had a new steady cam. I was all excited. And ⁓ and he was there when I pulled it out and built it for the first time. He helped me with it. And then on the weekend he was like, Hey, c can I run around with it and you show me how to do it. And I was like, Yeah, sure. So and you know, he's the nicest guy in the world. We were doing B camera. We had a blast. And yeah, he's he's one of the one of the best steady cam operators I know and and also now a great DP in his own right. Yeah, and just a good person. So it was it was those kind of conversations. And again, I'd I shouldn't have maybe mentioned him specifically towards this, but ⁓ some steady cam guys who have been doing it for so long who were so good at or felt like they were getting trapped into that position. And at the time, ultimately I wanted to I wanted to shoot. I want to be a cinematographer. ⁓ so I was trapped trapped into what trapped into what position. But being a steady camp guy of of kind of you know, golden handcuffs into you're so good at this thing, there's no way we can let you not do it anymore. In other words, if you wanna if you want to go into DP or direct or s something else, you're you're kind of stuck there. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So that was my that was my framework of kind of hesitating on that. ⁓ as much as I found interest in it. ⁓ there's a lot of athleticism in it, ⁓ that I thought I would I would be good at it. ⁓ and it's at some point I just is where I started to have kind of the crisis of, ⁓ wow, this is taking over my life. Do I really want to also become a D P to where more of my life is taking over? 'Cause in as an operator You mean the film industry in general. The film industry in general is taking over your life, yeah. Yeah, and I and I felt like as an operator that it's it's such a good spot in that world where it's like on most shows you have s you know it it ranges, but you have some creative input and ⁓ at least the ability to have some creative input. ⁓ and yet in my experience you can turn your phone off when you leave set, you know. ⁓ and you get to have lunch and and you don't have to have meetings with everybody. Yeah. Exactly. So when I had that revelation, yeah. And as I remember, Scream Queens Did you did your wife have your first child on season two? Yeah. We had our we had our first kiddo. I did. I mean, I kne I knew you had a child, just enough it was your first. ⁓ I do I remember that very well 'cause I remember you being on set and I think you got the call on set or you had you had to leave. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, because I I actually I remember I remember they were like they were like, ⁓ Spencer's gotta leave, you gotta come in on an A camera and I'm like, what in there? Like, his wife's having the baby and I'm like, Well, this is an inconvenience for me. Nobody No one thought to tell me this could be a Do they have any idea who I am? ⁓ but ⁓ yeah, so so so basically you're starting a family and you're beginning to think like I'm away that is that when it starts to hit like how I'm not home that much and et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. And I mean, and people, you know, they could point and laugh because obviously if you end this industry long enough, you see the hours, you could look, you could look ahead, but I'm a I'm a positive guy. You know, I'm an optimistic guy. I could have figured this out. How it all works out. ⁓ but yeah. Yeah. I'll you know what? I'll never I'll never that show in general is really special to me, but that that particular time, ⁓ when I came back, ⁓ James Brownley, the key grip, he ⁓ he would go up to the Perms. ⁓ this was I think we were stage fourteen and fifteen at Paramount. Paramount Yeah, he would make me a hammock up there before lunch would break. And so when they said When they said let's go to lunch, he was like, Hey, your your hammock's up there. He did that for me for months. I had no idea because you weren't getting any sleep at home. So you could sleep. I was getting zero sleep on set. So he was he was so thoughtful and so intentional. He was like, Hey, your hammock's over there, go sleep. Like it was like the coolest memory. I'll never forget It was such a James Brownlee's a great guy. Now I gotta call him because I was sleeping on the truck and I could have you know, I mean what am I? I know I'm only the B camera guy, I don't get a hammock, but maybe I I was a little shorter, so I fit into a ⁓ a a sound blanket a little easy. But I have to tell you, you went up to the perms because ⁓ the berms I that would have freaked me out. I it well, w it was very hot. It was very, very hot. However, it was very quiet. Super quiet, yeah. And no one knew I was up there really, I don't think. So ⁓ that's really that I you know what that that warms my heart. And James James is such a lovely guy. I mean, I I ⁓ that doesn't surprise me at all. That's fantastic. So ⁓ so that was that was where you sort of started to go like, ⁓ wait, there's like a life and a family and Yeah. Maybe these two things are hard to do together. Well I think it was while we were on Scream Queens that you won the Emergency Cinematographers Award from six hundred, right? Or I think personally announced it or something. Yeah. ⁓ which still congratulations. I remember seeing that and thinking this is amazing. Like this this guy's incredible. And but again Steady Camp sort of seems like a detour. Like you got the family thing, you got the Steady Camp thing, you get the D P thing. Like how do you how do you make that choice? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, ⁓ it was so it was much later on where I had decided 'cause it was soon after we had Finley, my oldest, ⁓ I say soon, like a year later, where we we wanted we wanted to make the move out of California. And so that's when we headed to Atlanta. And so I s I still had a few years there of working and it was after season one of Black Mafia Family for Stars that I think it just kinda hit me again of the interest of it. That particular show, we were doing some really fun things. It was still pretty low budget, but ⁓ lot of like I enjoyed the family there. We were we were they weren't afraid to take some chances and most of it was handheld so I could still do a camera and not have to surrender a lot of steady cam stuff that ⁓ but then I was like, man, if I don't want to shoot as much anymore and I'm on this show where we're doing some really fun stuff, maybe that's the time. And honestly I kind of pulled the trigger really quick and then was doing the steady cam on the next season. So it was it was a really quick turnover. And I yeah, and and I think a lot of like you probably couldn't do that 'cause I did like I just start off with a wave. ⁓ so there's there's I think probably I guess that's a good good conversation to have. Maybe you've had that is like it did allow me like the barrier of entry was quicker. However, And for anybody who doesn't know, a wave is a thing that goes on top that maintains the horizon. So all you gotta do is worry about like, okay, now I'm back to just framing. ⁓ you don't have to think about that. Look, it's weird because like there are purists who are like, That's terrible, you shouldn't do that and it's like, but you're also going Hang on, there's technology here that allows me to put this thing on, use it, do a good job. Why wouldn't I do? You know, I mean, ⁓ it makes perfect sense. You know, I like in ⁓ and obviously like the the the con is, you know, if it goes down, you know, obviously there's I think, you know, you and I talked about that when I was doing it. ⁓ but I I wanna say Neil Bryant said it best. He was like, when I get on a dolly, I don't have to worry about horizon. Why do I need a why is that a requirement for SETICAM? No, it it's ⁓ well look ⁓ here's here's the here's the the god honest truth about it is the only people who are upset about it are all the people who had to deal with it forever and didn't have all didn't have all these technology like we're like I spent thirty years keeping that thing you young kids. And I and I get it. You w like I totally sympathize with someone who spent that time and looks at me and be like, I'm better than him and I agree. I agree. You you're more skilled. However, You know, there's there's more to the job. And ⁓ but anyways, that that being said, I was able to hop onto that show and ⁓ still had plenty to learn, but had a lot of people who believed me and trusted me and ⁓ you know I was able to And but by the way, and that i i you know, we were talking about Joaquin. It's like there's so much to be said for that where where wherever you are in your career, just having people behind you who who you know have your back, who you know, you know, expect a lot out of you, but also are there to go, we're gonna make sure this works and what I mean th it's an incredible thing. To have that safety net. So basically, did you did you go out and buy a rig and then spend all the downtime in between the show just practicing every day? Or did you take a lesson, lessons? No, I I did not take a lesson. ⁓ funny not funny enough. ⁓ at that time we had also had a house fire. And so we were we were out of our house in rental homes with my growing family. I'd I think we had two at that time. And I was just like, I gotta figure out the Steady Cam thing. So it was just like pure chaos. And I didn't get a l I I don't even know if I didn't want to or couldn't afford a I don't know what it was, but ⁓ no, I just I mean there's so many so many good resources online too and I and and I was lucky. I had a lot of advantage getting into Steady Cam later, not later on my career, but like I had been operating for at a high level for a very long time, relatively. ⁓ and like I knew guys like you, Andrew Mitchell, all these guys I could come to, but like I do think there was a huge advantage of the ability to move the camera where I wherever I wanted was accompanied by the experience the years of experience I had of knowing when to move a camera versus starting off with with all the moves you want and not knowing how to be intentional about it. ⁓ so I do think that was an advantage. Well, I think but but the the point where you were at, you already knew how to be a storyteller. And so you were just like, Now there's just this new tool that I just have to figure out the the nuances of to to use to tell stories in in a different way. Whereas we were like I don't know how to be a storyteller and I don't know how this equipment works. And I don't know how to walk and I don't know how to hold a horizon. ⁓ so yeah, no, but that that's a it's a perfect so then it's just like putting an it's just putting the time in, right? And going, I gotta figure out how this sits on my body and how to keep it still when I want and how to Yeah. And and I would I would love to tell people that that was all my plan, you know. I thought through all this. I was like, This is I'm I'm super patient, but it wasn't. That is kinda how it shook out, you know. Is that right? No, that's good. Look, when you tell me that you've got two kids a house fire and you're deciding to go into study cam already, I'm thinking he's not very bright. But but maybe it's worked out for you. No, no, no. And then so how how long into the season? I'm assuming it it was within the season, did you sort of feel like, ⁓ I I can go out and sort of do whatever they they they want me to do? Like with confidence. Sure. Sure. Yeah, no, that's great. ⁓ Honestly, the wave probably gave me more confidence than I'd I deserved to have. But I also I feel like like this is what aided me in the beginning of my career of just like not n not considering I could actually fail. Like I I was I was so like I just didn't think I was gonna fail. I I I don't know what I like, I don't know what to chalk that up to. ⁓ like it could be a good thing or a bad thing, but like when I went to Los Angeles It did not occur to me that this was not going to work out for me. And I think I had the same confidence going to steady camp. And I don't know where that comes from. Again, I don't know if that's a good or bad thing, but that's that's what I felt. Like I I knew I would do this. It was only a matter of time. ⁓ so I I wanna say I've like pretty quickly felt comfortable, but I doubt I doubt I actually could have executed everything they wanted to at that time. It takes years to really actually be competent with the thing. And and that's actually why that's actually why I asked it that way is did you did you feel like you could do everything? I mean, I'm still not at a point where I could do everything they want, but ⁓ I I I stupidly think. But so do you do you think that's just a part of your personality across the board? Or is it just I mean, what do you th what do you attribute that to? I do I I don't know how to speak to people I don't know about. about who I am and not sound like a complete jerk. You can sound like a complete jerk. I'll edit it so you don't In my experience I've I've been fortunate enough to to be able to learn things quickly when it comes particularly when it comes to like physical activity, whether it be a sport or whatever. so for whatever reason, it I I have learned to adopt things quickly, I guess. so I guess that's maybe a personal trait. ⁓ but Yeah, I d I don't really know actually. Well, so so segueing here a little bit, and I hope you're okay with me bringing this up, ⁓ you you're you're a r you're a religious man and ⁓ you've you've lived a religious lifestyle. Yeah, I I've always grew up in the church. I would say I would say that I probably adopted ⁓ early on a lot of my parents' beliefs, which I probably couldn't ⁓ in the past at again at a young age really really tell you what I believed, right? ⁓ which is not uncommon for for anyone. But ⁓ yeah, the last I mean my all my dual life I've I've ⁓ been a Christian, been a ⁓ that's been a big part of of who I am, how I operate out in the world, yeah. But that's what I that's why I bring it up because I'm wondering, do you think that that has something to do with with your attitude of of like I mean 'cause As in essence, you're sort of talking about having faith in yourself and faith in your abilities to to do whatever it is your is before you. And I mean, that's it's all faith, right? Like, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And and yeah, I think I think you're right. ⁓ I I do think there is confidence when ⁓ and and to be clear, I don't think that's confidence that I'm going to be good at everything I try, of course, but it's it's is a confidence of like knowing. ultimately things things will end ⁓ as as they're they're supposed to. So I think you're right. I think a lot of that too and I think later in our conversation this might come up again, but like your identity and like where you place a lot of it I think has huge consequences on how you how you see the world and how you interact with it. ⁓ how how it interacts with you and how it affects you and your in your heart posture. ⁓ So I think in that sense, ⁓ my faith is has been a huge aspect to kind of my outlook on life and and how it flowed throughout it. So that makes perfect sense. I mean, but you you said something I don't I don't know the exact words you said, but you said something about ⁓ that that made me think about the fact that look, ⁓ I think that most people when they're when they're when they're thinking about doing something that's hard or or that has obstacles or whatever, you know, they're worried about failure. Right. I mean that's that's what it comes down to is most people that's what stops most people from doing something that's hard, right? They're worried about failing, nobody likes to fail, whatever. Yeah. But I think that if if and you sort of alluded to this when you said it, I I I wish I wish I'd written it down, but ⁓ I i is sort of if if you realize that what you're attempting to do, yeah, you may not succeed at it, but it's going to lead you to something else ⁓ that's just as important and whatever then there's no failure involved. It's just like, ⁓ well that didn't you that's just what I thought it was gonna be. You know what I you does that make sense? That's great. No I a hundred percent. And no, I think you're exactly right. And ⁓ because like I could I could point ⁓ you know I just will 'cause you brought up faith, but like James, the book of James, like he that's exactly what what he brought this is the the brother of Jesus. He says, consider pure joy whenever you face trials of any kind, because you know the testing of faith produces perseverance. So let perseverance finish its work on you so you become mature and complete, not lacking anything. Like it's this idea of how like trial and trouble in the world, although not good, does build you. Right. It's like you like risk like it it it has to happen. Like you don't you don't know what to change until you know what to change. And usually that's through trial and that's through ⁓ Growing and learning. Yeah, absolutely. And and it's also like it's one of those th you know, it's to me it's that that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And ⁓ and and I look back on my career and there are many, many times that I've failed ⁓ outright. There's no question about it. but but but I s but I say that knowing that it's just the only way that you fail, I think actually, and you know, if you're trying to build a house of cards and the house of cards falls down, yes, you've you've failed at Building the house of cards, right? That's that's pretty but but it the question is i i if you can find something that you've learned, if you can find something that you've ⁓ that's that that you've you've moved forward somehow, or if you can take something out of that, then it isn't failure. ⁓ and you know, it's ⁓ I don't remember who it was. I ⁓ there was that whole thing it's not about the falling down, it's about the getting back up. It's not about how hard you get hit, but how Yeah, I mean there's nine ways to nine hundred ways to say that. Yeah, let me tell you all nine ways real quick. Rattle them off right now. ⁓ no, but it but I think it it is that thing of like I what I and the reason I guess I I'm sort of I'm talking around it, but I think it's really important, especially for like people who are younger in this business, to recognize is like I fail all the time and you fail all the time and like Andrew Mitchell fails like we all fail all the time. It's just those those A those failures get hopefully farther and farther apart, if hopefully. and and also we we know how we know how to deal with them and we know and y and you know you know and you also know to how to go, all right, I'm gonna put that in the box and I'm gonna deal with that at the red light on the way home and it's gonna be ugly. But right now I gotta get back to fixing this and and you know I I I think I think that's probably the best advice you can give to anyone young. Th this this is this thing I I preach to my girls growing up. It's like like you you aren't learning what you're supposed to be learning because you're not filming often enough. Like you're like you have to you have to mess up. Like you have to mess up to get better at it. And and you're right, like it with ⁓ with younger filmmakers now who are not only in a social world but but but know nothing but one, ⁓ like that is that is the only thing you're seeing in in a feed and whatever is perfection. We and we're all aware of it. Like we're all aware that's not new information. Yeah, you only see what is what people feel like they want people to see. And so all the stuff that lies underneath, ⁓ you know, is it it goes it goes hidden and you can even though you know it exists, it it can you can forget about it and it kind of feel like you have to you have to already have arrived on your first job, right? ⁓ and and it's a great way to like not take yourself as seriously. Like like if if the people if you're listening to the podcast now and you came here because Dave Commodities and all the people he talks to You're probably gonna appreciate their advice and what they're telling you is they mess up all the time. So if they're talking like that, you probably should too, you know? No, no, it's absolutely well, and and I mean, I I do also recognize that I've been doing this for thirty six years or whatever. I actually my new thing is I say I've been doing this to l since the late nineteen hundreds. That's that's how I introduced myself now. I like that. Sorry. ⁓ but ⁓ I was gonna say something. ⁓ yeah, and and ⁓ you know I I also realize that there's look, there's a luxury in having done this for a while and having sort of a name and whatever. Not that I'm the biggest name out there, but whatever. I I've got a I've got a body of work behind me that if I fail I I n okay, but ⁓ I've been doing this for long enough, it's not my second shot, you know. So I I get that. But but ⁓ You know, it happen yeah, it happens to everybody and it's about dusting yourself off. I mean, I've said it before on the podcast, but the first big union job I got was as B camera operator. I originally thought it was A camera operator, was pointed out as B camera operator on Space Above and Beyond, which was the ⁓ T the next TV show from the guys who made the X Files. So everybody was like, This is gonna be huge. And it wasn't. Okay. ⁓ and I I did I did four days and on Friday I got fired. And and it was devastating. It was just completely devastating. And it was a pretty ugly weekend, I will tell you. Yeah. And and Monday morning I was like, get up or get out. And and I just decided I was gonna bug every camera operator I was on set with and watch and figure out and whatever. And the next big job, like you know, it's basically I was day playing and short terms and whatever. The next big thing I got called for was ER. And and I would not have succeeded on ER. had I I I'm convinced had I not had that failure on on Space Above and Beyond. I I man, I what a great story. Because I I mean that is how it works, right? Like that's how it that's how it works. Well i the thing the thing that is fair is that's how it worked with me and that's how you hope it works. It isn't always how it works because there's so much I couldn't control in there, right? I mean and I may have never gotten the call and been like, well I did this for nothing, you know, but ⁓ but anyway, so ⁓ yeah this has gone like way off the rails. No, but I I do think I I do think you're right. To just to reiterate your great point is like there is an advantage to having having enough experience that people kind of know that you'll do a good take two, even though you screwed up take one for sure. So I I I do I I hear you. Well and I also think in how how how many years have you been operating? ⁓ probably I mean, I don't know. People are gonna fact check me. I know ten, eleven years, twelve years. But again, you're you're you're in the same boat that I am and y you've been doing it enough that you know, yeah, I just I just I just didn't land that frame and I got that light. But it but I'm gonna survive that and and I'm gonna get it on the next one. And that people screw up and and you know, and ⁓ and and there's that thing where you know, D P will come over and be like Did you ever work with Bill Pope? No, but I I'm familiar with Bill. I I love Bill Pope. I love Bill Pope, but he is he is a tough individual to win over and to work with. And we were doing this d I don't know, we were doing pickups on Thor nine or something like that or whatever. And I forget who the actor is. Yeah, big big name actor. I can't think of his name. And he's he's in a pool and he's he's he's crawl craw clawing forward and he's dropping to the ground and I'm on a one thirty five on a remote head on a techno crane and and Bill comes over and he's eating peanuts and he looks at me like during the shot and he goes, You ⁓ you gotta keep his head in at some point. I was like, I'm working And you know, he knew what it was, but yeah. You know, but you know, it could take you down if you don't know, yeah, ⁓ this is this is tough and Yeah. I you know, I I remember a story it it actually might have been on my podcast, but I think it was Mitch Duman and he was he was I mean, I think Spielberg was probably similar, you know, very talented person trying to get something done. So the pressure of those moments. And and he kind of explained how he would have to take in all the notes, hear everyone out, and then before the take, just let it all loose. Like just kind of forget it all. Like I I hear you, I'll make this adjustment. And at some point you really have to rely on the confidence that you've done this before when you get to the point where you can say that you've done this before and just I am here for a reason. No one else here can do the job I'm doing. So I'm gonna do it well. And just really remind yourself that I can do this. Yes. You know, it's simply put. There's no there's no question about it. There's a ⁓ I mean I when I when I teach people study cam, I tell them this. ⁓ Michael Stipe, who's the ⁓ lead singer for R.E.M. was on this program and he was talking about how the career of an artist is like a clock. And he said, So in you know, for me as a guitar player, he said, from twelve until three I just wanted to figure out every single note and how to read music beautiful perfectly and just technical, technical. I can I can look at anything and play it. I could just I could just hit everything and every nuance and whatever. And then from three until six, I'm still perfecting that, but every once in a while I throw in a little of my own like, you know, zhuzh and and I and I I I hold that string for a little longer or whatever. And then from six until twelve, I forget everything that happened from twelve until six and I just live in the music. And it's and it's exactly what Mitch was saying. It's like I gotta figure out this and I gotta figure out that and I gotta figure out that and then I gotta take a big exhale and now I just gotta be I gotta be in the moment and do the shot and and and know that it'll be okay. You know? So you're you're doing steady cam and basically you're doing like T V shows r like you're you it seemed like you're regularly doing T V shows and you're kinda ⁓ your name around Atlanta. I mean, I just came to Atlanta a little while ago, but I knew you already, but everybody seems to know you and and like you. I think what did we bring you out on? ⁓ ⁓ we brought you out on P Valley. You and I were doing that handheld stuff in the jail that was fun and we were sort of like we were like zooming around on butt dollies together. That was actually a lot of fun. We were having a great time because like I think like I was standing up and you were like you were like like butt dollying underneath me and like we were just all over the place. So it was a lot of fun. ⁓ but that's one of those things where you get to work with good people. So yeah, so but basically you ⁓ you you've gotten to the point where you're like one of the go to guys. I mean, you you're people know you and and know you're a good A camera steady camera operator. And then ⁓ just recently I found out that you had made a change in your life. You wanna tell us about that? Yeah. Yeah. So I guess the short version is, you know, we decided to step away from the whole business, right? That's what you do. You you make a name for yourself and you just kinda walk away one day, you know? ⁓ Well what what is it walk away while they want more and not not afterwards or something like that? That's right. Yeah. ⁓ how d how do how how did that come about and what's the what's the thinking? And I mean I gotta assume it's family oriented and Yeah, yeah, and it is. And ⁓ that that's that's the primary. ⁓ I mean ⁓ look, if you go on a set, I think you can probably find fifty percent of the people say that they want to get out of it, if we're honest. ⁓ or at least a high number, right? ⁓ more more than there used to be, that's for sure. Yeah. Just because it's a tough it's a tougher industry than it used to be. Yeah. It's a tougher industry and and particularly in Atlanta, I feel like I I guess I can't really say, but it does seem reasonable to believe that a a lot of people got into a booming industry in a particular town, right? and maybe didn't move up the way they wanted to or as quickly or thought it'd be easier, whatever it was. ⁓ but yeah. So I mean That concern is ⁓ you know, is certainly not new. A lot of people get that they want to spend more time with family and and that was, you know, our our case. But it's hard to walk away from something that pays well, something that you enjoy and something you're good at. in something and something you spend a lot of time building. So ⁓ it was one of those moments where ⁓ we were looking at our life, my wife and I, and our growing family and you know, God's honest truth, there I don't there's no work life balance to this world. It's either the each each does you know, it it's in conflict with the other. That's just the reality. It's like w no one's argument that family is very tough. It requires a lot of time and so does working in this business and doing it well. ⁓ so we got to the point where, you know, we spent years imagining what it would be like to do something else, had no idea what that would look like, had It's hard to look at something that doesn't seem like there's many transferable skills. And ⁓ if there are, how do you pitch that to someone who doesn't know anything about movies? ⁓ so so we got to that point in ⁓ how we operate our life. We spent a lot of time in prayer, ⁓ looking for guidance of like what that might look like and and wisdom and ⁓ how to proceed and just got to a point where we knew we had to make a change. ⁓ I wanted to be part of my family's life more often. I wanted I'd been given these girls I wanted to cultivate, you know, who they became and and who I believe they are. And ⁓ getting really sappy now. But that's that's that's what fueled fueled the whole thing, you know? I totally get it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so so how how long ago did you actually ⁓ like pull the plug or whatever you want to call it? Yeah. Well, so again we had prayed about it a while and then we got to a point where my wife was just Tell her story. ⁓ she pr ⁓ asked God just for some kind of provision. We don't know what this looks like to help us out. Like can you can you show us any any beta means that would provide for us even if it's not what we think is a dream right now? And ten minutes later I get a phone call from a random buddy from church who is hiring ⁓ he needs a supervisor in construction. Get out of it. I don't even know if you know about this. Yeah. And at that point, at that point, one it It helped that work was slow and and we kinda recognized that. So we're like, hey, let's make this happen before the Saints gets busy downside, right? Exactly, yeah. And so I was like, Yes, like we we felt like this was the direction. So I went to go work in the construction and ⁓ I knew nothing about ⁓ helping. I was just gonna say, did you mention to them Yeah you know anything about ⁓ yeah. They they in fact, ⁓ this was great. ⁓ and maybe one day he'll appreciate that he was on a film podcast, but the guy who eventually hired me And I was like, I gotta tell you, man. It's like I'm just I make movies. I don't I don't know anything about this. And he was like I'm really good in chaos. I can tell you that. I can work really well in chaos, but he Yeah. His name is Jeffrey. He was like, Do you know what a door is? I was like, Yeah. He's like, You know how sometimes they they swing open and sometimes they close? I was like, Yeah. He's like, You're gonna be fine. So I had a lot of confidence. That's great. I love that. That's fantastic. But long long story short, that's kind of where we were. Obviously very tough. Went what we believe was a wilderness of ⁓ just trying to be faithful to what we thought was ⁓ being led by God in a direction, even though it didn't all make sense to us. And ⁓ I definitely wasn't there were aspects that I actually did enjoy, but I I could not see myself doing that for a long time and one thing led another. I'm I'm actually now working for ⁓ I'm the assistant director of marketing at a a private Christian school up here in Kinnisal. So ⁓ amazing. ⁓ and so what so how long has it been since you sort of, I mean, left the f or s said I'm not working anymore. That was your question. That's right. it was I mean it doesn't sound like it's a specific I'm just wondering like how long have you been not working non- year and a half. About a year and a half. And and like in during the during the time that I was in that construction world, like ⁓ I made it clear to him as well. It's like If I can day play just 'cause it wasn't enough money. Like I was we weren't gonna make enough money to figure it out quickly. So I was like, if I can day play, like I'm gonna I'm gonna take a day off and they were completely they understood they wanted me there and so ⁓ so I was still kinda dabbling. I was renting out some equipment here and there, but ⁓ but about that sixteen, eighteen months it's been probably. And and what what's the mental game of like because look this I mean, clearly this is something that you got into 'cause you love and and I mean, no one does this if they don't love it. It's too hard not to. Sound worthy, yeah. ⁓ is it is it hard to let that go? I mean, has it been I mean, I I ⁓ I guess I I I'm asking the question, but I also understand that like you're weighing it against no, but I'm with my kids and and and all that. So totally. But it's still it's still a very a really fair question because ⁓ like you know, it's not like it wasn't lost on my wife, even though we were making what we believe was the right decision. It wasn't lost on her that. I was stepping away from something that I like how rare is it that you get to make good mone money in a career that you actually really enjoy doing? ⁓ so it wasn't lost on her in that sense, but ⁓ obviously we were convicted that was right decision. ⁓ in my head it was it was always, you know, if there's a creative muscle, then I'm definitely not I'm no longer flexing like during my job. Like I gotta find somewhere to do that. ⁓ so so for me personally, it was just being aware that that was going to be a need and trying to find an avenue which to put them to place. And for me, it was doing stuff at our church. ⁓ we ended up ⁓ there's I have another buddy who has my church who's an who's an artist. And so it was it was making a podcast for the church. It was it was just like all these endeavors, just like trying to stay into something. ⁓ but but that was like a a big thing. I would I would say a larger a l larger battle, I don't know what the word is. Something I had to work work through more intentionally was was all of this ⁓ identity that I had placed into my job, which ⁓ okay, yeah, yeah. Like that was that was a bigger thing because Mm, because my faith, my identity is in Christ, and yet at the same time, like I still I still had this, like I'm I'm a camera operator. Right? Like it it was so confusing to me because I was like, well, hold on. Everyone knows me as one of one of those two things, and yet they're both they seem so it was it was really challenging ⁓ if if I'm you know being vulnerable about that. Like that was that that took a lot of work of ⁓ kind of realignment of of who I believe I am and and what that what that means and what that what that should look like in my life and how it should reflect and and and again none of this is to say that this job is evil. Like I'm not I'm not getting that either. Yeah, but like for me it was that was a that was two things that conflict with with each other. So there's No, I to I totally get it. And and ⁓ I I mean like you said it earlier, it's this job takes a lot of time and raising kids takes a lot of time. And they're I mean, there's no question that you can achieve both and and do them well, but it's not a guarantee either. And and I think there are enough people out there who can attest to that. so I I I totally get it. ⁓ and And so do you feel like at this point have you been successful in sort of like redefining yourself as ⁓ that you're okay? I like, are you okay with this or is this still sort of like you wish you were getting the call? And I mean, do you mind me asking that? I mean, it's there's a selfish reason for this because the thing is I'm nearing the end of my career and I c I'm out mowing the lawn and I'm thinking like, Well, I'm still a camera, but when I'm not, am I gonna be like completely like who like, yeah. So Yeah. No, I and I mean those are I think those are great questions for for anyone out there doing anything. It's like, am I if I'm placing too much of who I am into this thing that I shouldn't, you know? ⁓ yeah, so I like for me, I I I I wanna you know what I I have so I was hired for this job, I bas I get to do a lot of video. Like this is this is gonna be a really interesting potentially I never called a film the film job a a dream job. Because to me a dream job was going home for dinner every night. ⁓ you know what I mean? Well, I mean, for real though. That that that was that was my position. ⁓ and and this is actually we're potentially at a point where this is gonna be a dream job. But I w I I got to hire some people to be part of my team and a young videographer who's early twenties, who's just learning all this about me because he's you know, asking all these questions, which is great. And we're we're ⁓ I get to now teach him a lot of stuff, but he was like He's like, would you ever go back? And I and I realized it was literally today that happened. And I and I realized that there was no way I would. Like, like I've come I've come to the point, praise God, that like I I I feel great on like where I'm at. ⁓ and it and it feels weird to say, and I and obviously I'm not saying that to like there's no malice or gloat to any of this. It's just like from my perspective, someone who did look at this as an impossible task. at at one point in my career it was like I'm sitting on the other side now and and I'm this it's like this is possible. It it's a lot of hard work and it and it's not gonna work it for me it didn't work out the way I thought it would and it took a lot of time. and it will be different for everyone, but like there's you know, there's a there's a other side No, that's that well that's that was the reason that I wanted to talk to I I had originally wanted to talk to you anyway, but when you well, I I heard you were selling your rig, which by the way, as this comes out, if anybody's looking for a study camp. So there's like a study camp. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ but ⁓ no, but that's what I wanted to ask you because I knew how much you loved the film industry and and I also know, like I said, I I mean I know I know ⁓ you're a man of faith and and family is very important. So and I think we be we even talked about that years ago probably at lunch or whatever when you weren't in your hammock up top James Brownley didn't give me a hammock, but that's all right. I'm not angry. but ⁓ but ⁓ James is off the podcast. ⁓ but ⁓ no that's why I wanted to talk to you because I think there's so much stuff that you've brought up that's important. I mean look number one we're in a tough time in the industry where not everybody is making it and people are having to make choices. But I think the bigger thing that you mentioned, which is so important, whether you're making it in this industry or not, is you can't let you can't let your job define you. You've got to figure something out. You're not your job and your job is not you. Even though, you know, we love this job and I can't think of anything else to do, which I keep trying to, 'cause if I do, I'll do it. But ⁓ mow I'm like, hey, can I mow the lawn for lit? No, I can't mow the lawn. but ⁓ You know, but but only because I think that I think in a in a nutshell is if you let this industry define you and your job is being determined by what's available, which is less and less, and who's calling you, which is harder and harder, and this and that and the other, then your your very definition is being created by something out of your control, and that's not healthy, you know. That's exactly right. I I think whatever it is, whether it's faith, whether it's family, whether it's, you know, your photography on the side, whatever it is, like you've got to find something else in order to be healthy, to where, ⁓ I didn't get that job doesn't send you spiraling out of control, and that's that's the end of it. That that's exact that's exactly right. I think that's well said. Because it your job, if given the opportunity, it will take advantage of it and it will define you. it will gladly it would gladly take the opportunity you gave it and it will it'll define you. Absolutely. There's no question. And I mean, you know, I it's I've always said it it's like this industry is very much a drug. You know, and and you you you get that call on a Tuesday morning when you've got nothing going on and there and someone says, I need you on a plane to the Dominican Republic and it's a high, you know, 'cause like someone wants me and I have value and I'm going somewhere cool and you know, and they're gonna pay me a lot of money and whatever. Yeah, it's I mean it's a high. And then suddenly and then they call an hour later and they go, We got someone else, you're off and you're like, ⁓ I'm nobody and you know exactly. So so so is there is there part of you that Is ⁓ d does miss or or or will miss the fact that the phone could ring and and you could be off somewhere or or Yeah, yeah. No, I yeah, I think so. I think I think in in fact, ⁓ when you wouldn't you wouldn't imagine how often my phone rang once I made the decision, once I was clear on what I thought the goal was and w and and I and I felt like I was being given the answers I was asking and then committing to it. I got I think it was five months in in Hawaii. I I got a big movie coming into town that would have been the next big step for me. I I mainly did t I did some movies here and there, but nothing crazy. This was like a the next thing. like just tons and tons of calls. So like to me, I thankfully had done enough work on myself to where I could recognize what that was ⁓ and and deter from and not get back into the thing that I I didn't want to go back into. But ⁓ but yeah I'll I'll absolutely miss that. That's what a fun what a fun thing to be valued on on been an artistic thing and you're you know, like absolutely, absolutely. I don't know if that'll go away. Yeah. I no, I I hear you. Well, ⁓ that's ⁓ it's it's amazing to hear all this because I think there are a lot of people who are going through all this and I mean, look, the fact that, you know, you've sort of successfully transitioned doesn't mean that somebody else is going to, 'cause everything is a factor, right? But it just means that it is it it is doable and I think there's a tremendous amount of value in that. And I I commend you for Making what I'm sure was was probably a really hard decision, although maybe it wasn't because you your your priorities are such that you were going you were skewing towards your your priorities. So maybe that makes it easier, I guess. ⁓ I'll say this. My my wife knew the right answer before I knew the right answer. That's generally the case. At least that's what they want us to think. And and ⁓ yeah, I think if you asked my wife, she would say the exact same thing. But ⁓ yeah. So sort of in talking all of this, there's there's there's one specific thing that I think I have to ask you and and hopefully it's okay and you let me know. but at any point when either you were getting to the point where you were like I'm gonna get out of the film industry or you made the decision to get out of the film industry or or now that you have made the decision and followed through on getting out of the film industry, is there any part of you that sort of feels like you failed? ⁓ yeah, sure. ⁓ well okay sh the The feeling of what you're describing, yeah, of course. ⁓ that that that Let's see. The temptation to look on my experience and my career in that light is is within grasp all the time, for sure. I I've you know, we've talked about this part a lot of like my identity and kind of the working through that ⁓ and having having a firm foundation for that to ⁓ take to land that's that's never That's never where I end the conversation with myself. ⁓ of of that. 'Cause 'cause it's not it's not a failure. It's not a ⁓ like would I like was there room to evolve the craft that I learned? Certainly. ⁓ was there bigger ⁓ more creative productions I could have been a part of had I stuck in it longer? Absolutely. ⁓ but never like would I end up actually thinking that I that I've failed to some degree. ⁓ I don't I don't think that's I don't think that's at all at all a a some a label I could put on ⁓ the hard work and the you know the success that I've I've been able to find, you know, through through a lot of opportunities that came from a lot of people. But but yeah, that that ⁓ that's definitely something that could sneak in if you're not if you're not ⁓ you know, guarding the doors and the windows for sure. That's a good way to put it. Well the reason that I ask you and just to be clear, I don't think that at all because I was thinking about it and it's like, first of all, I mean you've had you've had compared to a lot of people an incredible career. You've done great work. You've you've got an you've got an award for for some of your work. you know, your peers think highly of you. So there's no question there that you've succeeded. and and ⁓ and on a very different level, like at least speaking for myself personally, you know, you've found a different path that is more important to you and decided to take that. So that in and of itself is actually not only not a failure, but a suc success, ⁓ to be ⁓ and and you know, impressive. ⁓ but the reason I ask it is because there is this thing in this film industry that it's like, ⁓ yeah, I mean I've done this and I've done this and I've done this, but why didn't I do that? Or why did that person get that job and I didn't? And so it sort of occurred to me, like, yeah, there must be that doubt of like, did I fail? So so ⁓ is there a way Is there a way that you push it out or do you just focus on those things that I just brought up basically or or what like what Yeah. Yeah. I mean I like I'm a I'm a sports guy. I'm I'm a I'm a big NBA guy. Like I think of like all those like so many times you'll have this great successful team that made it much further than they should have. And then those are always the questions they get asked by media of like, is is this year a failure? And they're like, A failure? What are you supposed to be here? Like Like I'm not even supposed to like, are you kidding me? Like that's kinda how I see it. yeah, I mean it's you know that's not that I was close to winning an NBA championship by any means. Wait, wait, but you know, you what I'll tell you this reminds me of is years ago I flew to France and Germany for a BMW commercial or something or other, I don't remember what it was, and I'm flying and it was I was flying out of LA and it was right after the Winter Olympics in Utah. And and I look around and I see all these people in these these matching outfits and I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, this is like the French team, right? And I'm like, this is this is the French this is a French Olympic team, right? So I sit down, you know, in my seat and and this guy in a jumpsuit sits down next to me and I'm like, Hey, how you doing? And he's like, Great. And I'm like, You are you guys part of the French team? And he goes, Yeah. And I, you know, what do you what what's your what was your sport? And I think it was like Louge or Toboggan or something like that. And I said, How'd you do it? He goes, I meddled and I'm like You're kidding me? That's so cool. And I'm talking to him, I'm like, ⁓ my god, and I'm thinking I'm sitting next to a medal. And he goes, You want to see the medal? And I go, Yeah, ⁓ like you have it with you. And he goes, Yeah, I'm not gonna pack it. So he opens it up and I remember my first instinct was like, ⁓ it's a silver. This is only the this is only the second best loser or whatever. And then and and it was a half a second because of course I want to see a gold medal. And then I caught myself and I'm like, What are you talking about? But it just made me think of what you were saying. Yeah, it's just like it's never good enough, right? That's so funny. Yeah, yeah, and that's and that's the like like again, like like I think of like ⁓ right now the number one golfer in the world is named Scotty Scheffler. And he's okay. He he happens to be a a old Texas boy who's who's also a Christian and I think I mean, I think that's ⁓ not not maybe not the Texas part, but ⁓ like where his where his like faith is, like he's such a cool guy to listen to interviews because everyone's asking him all the questions like like he has you know a a tournament coming up, it's you know, it's a major and if he wins it's you know grand slam or whatever it is. And he's just like I just I just can't think about this stuff because if I win that, y'all gonna ask him about like the next thing and it's like I'm just not interested. I'm not interested in this cycle for the rest of my career. I'm gonna play the best golf I can and I think that's great again, I can't compare myself to any of these people by any stretch of the imagination. However, like that mentality I think is the only way for anyone to get through this identity crisis or ⁓ this idea that, you know, you are only as good as your your last job. Like I think that's such a silly way. People might like to look at that and and kind of tout that in the moments that they're getting successful jobs. But ⁓ realistically that's a silly way to look at life. ⁓ in in the from a longevity perspective, like you are you are so much more than that. So I think I think for me just ⁓ again, that's that's a that's an easy thing that can creep into your mind if you're not careful. ⁓ but it's never a useful thing. ⁓ like that's never gonna serve you well. ⁓ because it's not true, you know. So it's funny you bring this up, Dave, because tonight we were introducing our girls to Freaky Friday. it was it was one of those movies like, Wow man, this is this is time, they're gonna love it. And we're watching it and they're aware of we talked Jamie Lee Curtis earlier, ⁓ and technically my oldest did get to ⁓ meet her physically but she was an infant, so they don't know this. Okay. But we do like they're aware of who she is, ⁓ because of the proximity of how we work together. And so we're It's like halfway through the movie, and I'm my middle child, I'm like, Do you know what that is? And she's like, I have no idea. And her reminder was like, I worked with her, like, that's JB Lee. And she was like, ⁓ what? And then Chad Michael Murray comes in, we're Yeah, we know him too. And they're like, What? And then ⁓ there's another actress whose husband I worked with later. So were just kind of joking with them, having good time about it. And the the look of my middle child was like, Who are you? And in my head, I wanted to say, Yeah, I used to be cool at one point. And then I and then I kind of I kind of stopped and I was like, Well, hold on. That's going against this whole belief that you have of yourself of like I granted it's a little silly, but in my head it did flash through and I was like, No, like that's not that that's not the point at by any means. But that but that is a trap. Like that's the trap, is that like no no, you used to know these people, you used to work with people, you used to be in this club, and now you're not. And that that should hurt that should hurt you. And also Knowing you and knowing her, I know the reason why you like the fact that you know Jamie Lee Curtis is just because she's a really wonderful person, not because she's some big big superstar. Right. I mean that's that's fun, like you said, but who cares? 'Cause because you and I also know superstars that we wouldn't want to tell our kids that we know. A hundred percent. So ⁓ yeah, that's that's great. When when ⁓ I was doing Studio Sixty on the Sunset strip and ⁓ Chandler from Friends ⁓ ⁓ I can't think of his name. Matthew Perry. Matthew Perry? Yes. Well done. That's right. He wa he was on it. wonderful guy. And ⁓ at one point he came back ⁓ in ⁓ it was actually an episode that I was directing. And he goes, I think that ⁓ your wife and two very small people who are related to you may have come come in. And I'm like, ⁓ yeah, what, huh? They're here? And he goes, Yeah, I was standing outside smoking and this Very small person came up in front of another small person and a woman who said that eventually it was your wife and looked up at me and said, Where's craft service? ⁓ And he went, ⁓ I can show you. And she's like, Please do. She's like, you know, five years old or whatever. And he's like, So I walked her in and and whatever. And I and I I said, ⁓ thanks. I said, ⁓ and there there they are. And my wife's coming over with the kids. And ⁓ I looked at him and I said, So, ⁓ no autographs? And he's They were not interested. But he got a You got a big kick out of it. It is the kind of thing, like they could care less because they wanna they want to know where the table with the candy is. Yeah, well and and they and they and they have it figured out, right? They they understand, like they know where the value is on when you're on a side. A hundred percent. So anyway, good stuff. That's great. Did they like Freaky Friday? Dude, they loved it so much. They ⁓ That's great. I think it like when I watch those movies and I actually got to do film one of those movies, ⁓ but like you You have to in your head you're constantly reminding yourself of who is who and who's acting what because they were right. It was like an inception for them in some sense. that's great. So that's great. They loved it. Yeah. That's the way it's supposed to be. So do you do you do you foresee a future where where like you're sort of gonna get back into video production with the with with the church or with the school? Yeah. So I mean that's essentially what this job actually ends up being. ⁓ somebody I'm What I'm doing is is basically running all internal, external photography and and video for a really large, ⁓ really large private Christian school out here. So it's it's like I got I got a team we're a team of nine and all, but my specific team is of four of us and we're we're doing stuff for a jumbotron from like monitors and the school. Like it's a lot of really fun stuff and and they and they won't they brought in someone who's specifically no storytelling to try to make some changes. So it's exciting. It's like I've actually feel excited about the opportunity. So it's kind of a strange thing. Do they need it do they need a camera operator? Yeah. They don't know the amount of people I'm about to hop I'm about to hire to come into the school. Yeah. All right. Put me in the top of that list, man. and ⁓ and and if I heard you correctly, because I can't quite get my head around this. So you have a job now where you go at the same like at the same relative time in the morning and then you come home and have dinner with your family in the evening. Is that how that works? It's a real it's a really strange thing. Yeah. So I actually get to see my family and eat with them. Yes, yeah. Do you sit down do you sit down while you eat? Like I mean you actually sit at a chair and a table and I that is I have been trained to do that, but it's still it's still I wanna stand often. It bugs it bugs my wife Yeah, you're still I I somewhere I have it. I during COVID I sent I sent my buddy a picture of me in the living room. ⁓ I dragged the garbage can up and I was eating pizza over the garbage can. I was like, I'm just trying to flex the muscles. Do you know what I mean? ⁓ no, that's th that's fantastic. And ⁓ how how great to hear it and and that, you know, you you've successfully transitioned and and I appreciate you being honest about it because I I I figured there have to be things aspects that you're gonna miss. I mean, it's too great of a it's too great of a job not to. ⁓ but ⁓ I mean I'm such a romantic to to telling stories the way we do, right? 'Cause it's and I mean partly like I'm the amount of time I'm I'm looking back at the the Static Him operators that were looking at me when I was talking about the wave. Like I look back at all the time I spent for my craft and I look at that in a very romantic way of like, man, like those like it is such a beautiful craft and it's ⁓ yeah. Yeah, I'll miss I'll miss ⁓ plenty of aspects. A lot tons of the people that you get to hang out with for ninety hours a week. There's that too. Yeah. There's ⁓ absolutely. ⁓ but like you said, then you're hanging out more with your family. So ⁓ as long as you like your family, that's a good thing. If you don't like your family, you got another issue coming, but that's ⁓ that's a different podcast sometime. ⁓ well well listen, I I really appreciate you sharing this and being as open as you are and and and congratulate you on on following the path that you you th you you feel is is right for you and your family 'cause that's not an easy thing to do. And I think there are a lot of people out there who struggle with that. ⁓ probably more probably more than we recognize. so ⁓ it's it's really fantastic and and I will say it's it's a loss for all of us because ⁓ you you were a great camera operator and and a real real pleasure to work with and and your work is fantastic. So ⁓ I suspect that it will just transition to a new a new plane with what you're doing there and ⁓ that's the hope. Yeah. I mean that that's that's that's fantastic. well listen, I will ⁓ I will leave you with the question that I leave everybody with, which ⁓ is a little odd considering that you're now out of the business, but I'm gonna ask you anyway. and ⁓ you can take us out with it. ⁓ Advice for someone getting into the business today on how to succeed and or something that you learned along the way that helped you ⁓ that you wish you knew when you were younger. Sure. Yeah. I mean, clearly we talked a lot about the you probably more often than you normally do of cons in the in, you know, of what this life or the this industry brings to people's lives. And I would I would only say to that, you know, just think of it, put some thought into it of what the future might look for you, the future that you're trying to build and ⁓ and and how it all fits together. It it doesn't have to be the path I took, which is saying, hey, don't go in the film industry. That's not at all what I'm trying to say. ⁓ just speaking to my experiences. But in terms of getting in the business, you know, we said it earlier, I think you you can jump miles ahead of other people when you treat people well. I think ⁓ that's a absolute truth to life that when you treat people well, it usually comes back to you. So I would start there and any any responsibilities that you can take away from people that have hired you, the the better you look. You know, that's that's another way to kind of learn quickly and also show people that you're you're ready to move, ⁓ move up. And anything beyond that kind of escapes me at the moment. But I think those are good good places to start. So good luck there. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.