Dave C: The podcast you were about to listen to is a repeat of an interview I did in October 2023. On today's episode, we'll talk about working with the tough AD, Baywatch, Snowfall, the importance of reading the room, and of course, Steven Spielberg and his bear claw. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website theop.io is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Like it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Victor 30 Echo Tech 2. Hey Mark. Camera set. Hello and welcome back to the OP, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I'm your host Dave Komides and ⁓ Thankfully I am again coming to you from the theater in Panavision Hollywood because it's better than the back of the craft service truck, which I haven't tried yet, but I don't think it's gonna work well. I have a great, great operator, director, assistant, ⁓ person, ⁓ Eric Dyson here with me today. Eric and I have worked together a couple times and go back a little ways. ⁓ a couple of Eric's credits, but not all of them by any means. ⁓ as an operator, hunter's rebel crazy ex girlfriend. ⁓ as a a as an assistant, Snowfall, A Wrinkle in Time, Scorpion Community 24, Judging Amy. ⁓ and as a director, he has made a couple of short films, but specifically a short film Baby Steps, ⁓ won four top awards ⁓ at different ⁓ festivals around the countries and had three other nominations. ⁓ he has just finished directing his first feature film. And just because I have to say it so that we talk about it, apparently the rumor on the street is He was actually an extra in two Michael Jackson videos, which I need to ask you about because it's changed my entire view of the Eric Dyson world. Eric, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. I just looking at the the list of ⁓ guests you've had so far, it's like I am not in the right room, but I'm happy to be here. I think you're absolutely in the right room. Believe me, for what it's worth, ⁓ you are sitting in the seat where a lot of people have sat and by the way, I think at the point where we're recording this, ⁓ there I think the fifth podcast maybe comes out tomorrow. Actually, I'm sorry, like the fourth full podcast, and there were a couple bonuses. But I've I've recorded about forty to fifty of them at this point. Just because since we're, you know, dead because of the strike, I'm like, hey, let me get all these people in here. And I will often sit in this seat looking at the person in that seat going, what am I doing in this room? So you're in very good company. Okay, good. ⁓ so ⁓ tell me your story. How'd you get here? And don't leave out Michael Jackson, because I absolutely want to hear that. And also, if there are any pictures of you at that point in your life, I think we're gonna need those. Yeah. ⁓ well, I'm I I'll start f sort of like way far back because I think like everything that has sort of gotten me to this seat right now is irrelevant and I think a big part of what people who are new in this business miss is really understanding what part their upbringing, their family history, how all that works into film and television telling a story, how you read a script, and how you frame a shot ultimately. So going way, way, way back, ⁓ At one point my father's family migrated from like many others Jim Crow South to the Midwest. Where where Jim Crow South? they ⁓ Georgia, Florida. Okay. Right? So ⁓ my grandfather died when my father was very young, so I never knew him. So all of the, you know, this pieces I put together through other family members, through genealogy, blah, blah, blah. So they ended up in the Midwest in Ohio. And then at some point my father, my grandfather and his brother left Ohio, bought some dirt in San Diego, with their hands, built a small house and a small backhouse. that my 96 year old aunt still lives in today. Wow. So the idea of ⁓ we have nothing, we have to make something, and we're the ones who are gonna do it speaks directly to where my career is and realizing that people are not always gonna hand you things, especially in this business. Like everyone talks about it, but you have to do it. So working with what you have to produce what you want is like something that I look back on my father and my grandfather and all that they went through and my mother, ⁓ to you know, to to get to get the things that that I think, you know, the cur directions I want my career to go. So flash forward to I don't know, probably nineteen forties or so, my father who was a jazz musician, was a, you know Big time West Coast jazz, you know, played all the clubs in Southern California and played in the you know army band. ⁓ met my mom, who ⁓ happens to be white, and at this time it was it was difficult for ⁓ you know, a black man and a white woman to date, much less to get married. But they found a pastor who would do it and they got married. At least was in California. At least it was in California, right. Yeah. and ⁓ So they got married, it was not you know, very ⁓ it wasn't easy by any means, you know, the Watts riots and where they were living really was like the the line between where whites lived and blacks lived was getting very ⁓ you know, is evident. Yeah. So ⁓ Wait, can I ask you a question? You said he was a jazz musician. In that community was it also problematic or was that community more accepting? Much more accepted. Okay. Yeah. So it it was not uncommon for, you know, ⁓ white musicians, jazz musicians, to play at black clubs, right? That was, you know, they felt welcome, they felt like the other musicians were on par and everyone was like just there for the music. So at least they had like some little enclosure. They were accepted and even if it wasn't the neighborhood or whatever. Right, right. Wow. so my mom, many years later you know, didn't have a college degree, ⁓ started a business, she became a payroll entrepreneur, and you know, in nineteen seventy-six, a woman, like there was no Me Too movement, right? There was no HR department, and she started a payroll service all by herself. And ⁓ you know, so now I'm growing up and my dad is a musician, right? He's an artist. My mom is a ⁓ payroll entrepreneur, she's a woman having her own business. He's black, she's white, my friends were everything in between, and like I had no reason to think that, you know, that this wasn't the way it should be. Everybody's like this, right? Because everybody's like this. Right, right. And if only. So right. So when I hit about sixteen years old, ⁓ I met a pretty ⁓ instrumental man in my like filmmaking development. And ⁓ probably a couple years prior for a school assignment, the assignment was what do you want to be when you grow up? And ⁓ I picked director. You're like a freshman in high school or no no this is probably freshman in high school. And ⁓ there used to be a bookstore called Op Amp Technical Bookstore in Hollywood. Okay. and it was like the you the the smell of old books is exactly you go in there and like only Tech nerds and you know big-brained people going there for books. So I told my dad, hey, I need to get a book on directing. ⁓ so he went and he brought me home a small green book, and it was called Directing. It had zero pictures and zero diagrams in it. so then a few years later, I met this man, ⁓ a guy named Fritz Good. And Fritz had a production company called Maasai Films. And Maasai Films. was on the fourth floor of what used to be the Max Factor building in Hollywood. Like the window, his office window looked at the Chinese theater. Like if there's an epitome for I need a Hollywood office, that's where it would be. ⁓ so I met Fritz at my mom's office and ⁓ he said, well if you ever get any ⁓ downtime and you wanna be a PA, like you know, come by the office sometime. And ⁓ Was he a yeah, I'm sorry, was he a producer or what yeah he was a producer, filmmaker. Okay, gotcha. ⁓ he had this ⁓ production company. Jack of all trades. Yeah. Okay. And ⁓ so his business partners were Joe Wilcotts, who I wanna say w was possibly the first black member of the ASC, I don't know for sure. and ⁓ an actress named Denise Nichol Nicholas or Nichols, ⁓ Who was one of the stars of a show called Room two twenty two, like ten thousand two. I I s I remember Room Tw two twenty two existed. When it was on, I was definitely not interested in it 'cause it was like a it was like a ten o'clock drama showing your parents watched it. Right. So those three people, all black, ran this production company and again this is another instance of, hey, you want to be in the in the biz, right? Like This is where you're coming from and now you meet this guy who's got a production company. He looks like you do, so like what's the problem? There's no problem because Aga again, there must be tons of people like this, right? That's what you're thinking as a kid. Right. So I met ⁓ you know, shortly after I started there and I would work after school for, you know, a couple hours. You mean just like you were an office PA or whatever? Like doing whatever. I was an office PA during the week and then he would do a lot of industrials and training videos and like We did a series of videos with Norm Nixon where he wanted to teach kids how to play basketball. And ⁓ so when we'd go out on the shoots, I would do everything, right? Sometimes I would hold the Niagara, sometimes I would, you know, go get lunch, whatever it took. That's great. And ⁓ so at that time I also met Johnny Simmons, who was another like, all right, he was a little more like, you know, from Chicago, let me tell you how it really is, kind of guy. ⁓ but definitely gave me a perspective on what it meant to have dark skin and work in this business. Right. Johnny Simmons was a D P? Yeah, still is. Yeah. Still he still is. Okay. ⁓ for sure. I don't know him. I've I've s heard his name a lot, but I yeah, I don't know him. So if if you were black and it was the early to mid eighties, even late eighties, and you came to LA and you needed someone to connect with, it was Fritz at Masai, who then at some point you would meet Johnny, right? Wow. And ⁓ so, you know, doing all this really low budget stuff and answering phones and getting donuts and setting up cameras and Fritz started to introduce me as ⁓ this is Eric, he's gonna be a cinematographer someday. And I couldn't spell cinematographer. I didn't know what a cinematographer was. So great. But I was on board with it, right? And you also had the directing book, so it's probably like, well, no, I thought I was supposed to be a director 'cause I have the book. The book, right. So Put the book aside. Now I'm gonna be a cinematographer because Fritz says that's what it is. And my my dad was also a really talented ⁓ black and white photographer. We had ⁓ an enlarger and a dark room at home. and so like I was always into cameras and you know, framing and ⁓ w in high school I got a beta max camcorder which, you know, like getting back to like what my grandfather and his brother did, like we wanted to make a movie s and we wanted the camera to like just be on the feet. So we had a wagon and some kind of a screw went through a board and I guess we can screw the camera on it. Like I didn't know anything about quarter twenty threads or maybe it was a three eighths, right? And I didn't know anything about like ⁓ r you know stabilizing things. Yeah. So I had a dolly and a wagon. I made a hood mount for my, you know, sixty six Mustang, right, that Thankfully didn't fall off when I turned a corner. But like this is what I saw in other movies. And I guess this is how you can do it because, you know, you were ignorant. And that was great because you just got what you needed. I love that. That's fantastic. had a Super 8 camera. And we shot a ⁓ We shot a quote unquote music video for Z Z Top's sharp dress man, which was the dumbest thing on the face of the earth. But I remember my buddy Matt had a Jeep and we put the camera on the on the ⁓ you know, on the like the footwell that you would step into the Jeep that was outside of it, and we're pointing at the wheel and I didn't know how to put it on there, so he just drove down the street as fast as I could run, and I held it and then we sped it up and I remember thinking, This is gonna be unbelievable. And of course when we saw it, we were like, It's really boring, but but still it was the same kind of thing. You just did whatever you can think of. Sure. It was cool. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that's when you learn like, what do I have and how can I use what I have to get what I want? And the flip side of that, as I'm sure you and I have both worked on projects where people don't want to use what they have, right? It's like, this is what I want, but ⁓ you don't have the elements to get it, so how are you gonna do it? so I get through high school and I was in the A V club and I'll I'll back up a little bit, which was like I wasn't always the cool guy that I am now, right? So I find that absolutely hard to believe. I just want to let everybody know that Eric is wearing a t-shirt that says drink water, love cats, fight racism. And I told them I have a problem with one of those and we'll talk later about it. But you are exceptionally cool. So when I was in middle school, my No no, elementary school. My brother was in middle school and they were doing a production of West Side Story, right? And this is kinda like when your hormones are starting to like knock on the door a little bit. And on stage I see like these kind of cool kids, right? And guys dancing with girls and like they're hugging and stuff, like Look at that. Like that's their job to be on stage. They're allowed to do that. They're allowed to do that. They're told to do that. Right. Yeah. So when I get into middle school, when I was, you know, a a senior in middle school, ⁓ I get in the theater program and Barry Bialik was the the drama coach, right? Whose daughter would later become Maya Bialik, right? ⁓ Yeah. And so ⁓ Fast forward to high school, so I'm in the theater program in high school. I'm six three ish, horrible basketball player. But when I get into high school, everyone hey, you're tall. Hey, why don't come try out for the basketball team? Six four, same thing. And I'm like, you want me to do that until I try to make a shot and then we'll talk. Right. And that's exactly what happened. And everybody assumes that you're good, right? You're good. And like not only are you not I I was okay, but everyone else was so much better. And people who are shorter than me were like Aggressively like, if I had your height, these are the things I would do. So I got out of ⁓ basketball, joined the A V department, was also in the theater par department, had a Betamax camcorder. Like, this is a recipe for like a really successful high school career. No, I see this coming. This is great. And ⁓ the A V club president was like, Hey, you know, if you are in the A V club. You can get out of class, you can go set up projectors, you can wheel the television with the, you know, VHS deck from room to room. You can t you know, thread the movies like and like, you know, it's totally you like you you don't have to go to class. It's legit. Right. I'll y sign me up. ⁓ but there's one other thing, which is like I'm gonna need you to be here an hour before school some days because ⁓ you know, sometimes the stuff's gotta be ready and it's like, you know what? Let me know when you need help and I'll try to jump in, but there's no way I I'm gonna get here even earlier. but with my Betamax Camcorder, like I was the only one in the school who had one. And like w I would shoot assemblies. Jesse Jackson came to our school and I got to interview him and does all this goofy stuff from the from the 80s. and you know, I gotta say the the theater program was fantastic. I met some of my best friends that I have now still. and Were you behind the scenes or were you up on stage? You were up on you were acting. Yes. I did not know that. It doesn't surprise me, but I didn't that's great. So when please tell me there's some Betamax footage of some of these plays. Yes, there is. I was the afterwards. I was ⁓ we did a ⁓ gender reversed version of Hamlet called Hamlet Two and I was Gertrude. Hamlet two. Yes. Yes. So good, right? Yeah, well I like the idea that Shakespeare wrote it and you guys where is this where is this high school? Fairfax High. At Fairfax High, the kids at Fairfax High finally got it right. That finally did it right. Yep. That's what you needed. ⁓ so as I'm kind of approaching the end of high school, maybe even my first year at LA City College, ⁓ I get the opportunity to do some extra work, right? you know, person extra. So ⁓ through my mom's company, ⁓ they had a division that did casting. So, all right, what the heck? And at the time there was something called the Screen Extras Guild. And if you were a featured extra, you got residuals. Really? Silly. Yes. So do you remember remember Max Headroom? Sure. Okay. So this was Max Headroom for President. And ⁓ this footage does exist where ⁓ we were shooting at the Queen Mary And we're all, you know, I don't know, twenty or thirty people in this room and they're slowly pulling groups of people out, right? You go, you're gonna do this, you're gonna be holding a dumb sign, you're gonna throw confetti, whatever. And it's down to me and another guy, and the other guy says, well, it's just the two of us. I I think they got something special for you. And I just thought, All right, whatever. I'm you know, really more curious about when lunch is gonna be and what time we're gonna go home. ⁓ so this A D comes in and goes, Hey, come here. You know anything about ⁓ video cameras? It's like, yeah. Actually I happen to own a Sony Betamax blah blah blah. Okay, I don't care. ⁓ you know how to hold one of these things? Sure. So I got this fake, you know, like huge ikagami style shoulder ⁓ camera. And your job is gonna be in the crowd, you're just gonna be video, you know, you're doing video coverage of this. It's like a political rally. Okay, great. And I got a I don't know, three second featured close up of me, my badass mustache that I used to have. And not an afro, but like nothing to sneeze at. Well, and also again, we're on a podcast, but but but ⁓ Eric has a shaved head. So the idea of you even having hair it's just so ⁓ just gonna take a quick break here. Anyone who's listening to the podcast at some point make sure To go to the podcast section of the op.io because there will be links to every single thing I can find here. This is great. Well, s that that footage is easy to find. ⁓ I later ⁓ there was the ⁓ Michael Jackson Pepsi commercial where his hair caught on fire. So this is Michael Jackson when he was huge Michael Jackson. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right the the Pepsi commercial. That was a big deal. That was a big one. Wait, were you there when his hair caught on fire? N yes and no. I wasn't in the shrine when it happened, but I was wherever they were keeping kids at the time, which was like in a basement or something. Gotcha. 'Cause I I remember vaguely there was something about like dancing downstairs and there were a lot of kids around I there were always kids around him, which are ⁓ but did you actually like work with him? No, not at that time. I was like I don't know, one of I don't know, two hundred kids or something. But I got to stay out of school and get paid Right. And say you were involved in a Michael Jackson. That's right. That's cool. Then much later during the smooth criminal music video, ⁓ there's a shot where, and this is a little bit foreshadowing of my future camera career, but there was a shot where the POV of Michael Jackson's ⁓ car jumps over a bunch of cops in these kind of stormtrooper outfits and ⁓ The camera was mounted on a ⁓ some kind of a crane arm, right? And it goes cutting super close to the the bubble lights on the and the first pass it nicked the lights and you know like the lights on top of the police car. Yeah. Right. Yeah. ⁓ but I'm in full, you know, like these stormtrooper outfits with a helmet, so I could be any one of any of these guys. So you just have to take my word for it. Sure, sure. I've got that. I'm in there too, by the way. I just want to throw that out there. Right. That's so cool though. So we did I did that and I did a lot of ⁓ there was a a campaign called Rock Against Drugs and I shot a lot of stills for that and am actually in a couple of those spots. That's great. ⁓ That must have been a lot of fun. It was. And and it was like this is all before like my first year of city college, before like high school, city college, and like look at all the people you're meeting and the things you're doing. Like everything was like falling into place like Wha what's the problem, right? Aaron And w when you were on these sets, were you like were you checking out the technicians? I mean were you were you interested in that or were you thinking, no, I'm gonna be an actor and I'm gonna this is ⁓ no, like I I never wanted to be like ⁓ after high school was like clearly the things I was gravitating towards were taking stills and you know, getting hired to shoot like low budget, low quality video projects. I was still working at Maasai films. I was doing more and more like three quarter inch editing, shooting, ⁓ sound. Like so the more I Further I got out of high school, the more it was like the technical stuff was what I was gravitating towards. Gotcha. ⁓ I went to film school at a school that's now closed called Brooks Institute of Photography. I vaguely remember that. Yeah. Was it in Hollywood? It was it was in Santa Barbara. It's in Santa Barbara. I just remember ads for it or something. Right. Okay. So if you're a photographer, a serious photographer, you would either go there or art center in Pasadena. and since I was told I'm gonna be a cinematographer. I had no direction out of city college. ⁓ someone heard about this school called Brooks and like, hey, you should go check it out. So I go up there, and their main campus was in Montecito, and it was an old, beautiful mansion that overlooked the ocean. Like, yeah, I could do this. That's you know, it would be great. So I went to Brooks and I was in their film film program and ⁓ it was great. Right. I met my now wife and it was almost thirty years ago that was. So that was worth it. We've been married, yeah. So she w she was in the same program? She was she was a ⁓ portrait major. But she was a photographer. Also a photographer. Wow. Yeah. That's great. So ⁓ went to Brooks, graduated on a Friday, I came back to LA on a Monday. I d worked a lot of PA days on music videos, on whatever I could. This is what Ninety Early nineties, yeah. Okay. Gotcha. then I had a connection with someone in administration at ⁓ Amblin Entertainment, right? Steven Spielberg's company. Yeah, a little guy named Steven, you know, he's just just cutting his teeth and who who was Steven he was Steven Spielberg at that point, right? He was a big name. Yes, yeah, yeah. Amblin was a well Amblin a force in yeah, by the way. Yes. Okay. So So this is over at Universal. At Universal. Okay. ⁓ So now I can say goodbye to my low budget driving the truck, getting there before sunrise and leaving after everyone else, cleaning the parking lot days. And I w started working in post production. And we were just doing ⁓ post on hook, right? Wow. And the ⁓ like I had zero understanding or appreciation for the golden spoon I was handed because it was just like I got hired and I got hired to do a job and you know, the post production coordinator, like ⁓ super nice guy, and we became friends and like there was just a couple of us in this office and you know, I'm taking handwritten sheet music to John Williams' house, right? Having him make some notes. Okay, there you go. But but not thinking what this actually is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I knew who he was. Yeah, and but That's your job. Bring this to him and then wait for it and come back. Wait for it? Just ⁓ backing up, did you did you know someone and that's how you got the job? Or did was there just like you found an ad, we need noone to work at Steven Spielberg's company. Yeah, come on down. No, my ⁓ so the woman who worked in the administration department used to work for my mom years prior. Okay. So, you know, I started making these phone calls and there was even a time when like ⁓ someone said, ⁓ call this place called local 80 and Maybe you can be a grip and then you can start doing other movies. A grip local movie things in LA. Right. So I was just calling whoever. So I called this this woman and I said, Hey, you know, I'm out of film school. I've done a couple things and I'm just looking to be a PA if you guys do need need anyone. Did you mention that you were the stormtrooper in the Michael Jackson video or did you leave that out? No, I don't I don't really like to drop names. Okay, I didn't sorry, I didn't I wanna bring it back up. I want to be hired for me, not for who I was on screen. That's that was old Eric. New Eric, right? He's making his way. like that. That's right. No, that's respectable. So ⁓ I don't know. I go in for an interview, I talk to this guy. Okay, well, we have a temporary opening of post-production. And ⁓ you know, while they're finishing Hook. All right, so I'm working on Hook and ⁓ yeah, John Williams. Here's the paper. Take this back to my orchestrator, he's gonna do some more stuff, and then you know, bring it back tomorrow. So this was commuting from Universal to West LA and back. ⁓ Then my my big moment and something like, I don't know, maybe later on in the podcast we can talk about when you have an opportunity and you miss an opportunity and how you kick yourself later. Mm-hmm. ⁓ most of my life. Yes. So my my really big break came so I I hadn't seen Steven Spielberg. You I knew I was at at the company and I knew ⁓ that was his office over there and it was like a compound right like you had to go through security to get there. ⁓ like they had their own bungalows kind of thing and everything was like this in-house kind of vibe, right? So ⁓ I had to deliver something they were at a scoring stage called Todd AO in Hollywood. Yep. Take this down, give it to whoever ⁓ and while you're there Steven needs some breakfast. So can you stop and get him you know, blah blah blah. I was like, yeah, I'll do that. So ⁓ I go and I think it was like donuts or pastries or something. So I go and I hand off the paperwork and ⁓ I open the door, Steven Spielberg is sitting there. And it was still a little shell-shocked at the time. Yeah. And I had him this box. I said, ⁓ hey Steven, I'm Eric from post production. ⁓ this is your breakfast they asked me to deliver to you. And he opens it up and ⁓ what's that? And I said, that's just just a couple different donuts and some pastries. I wanted a bear claw. There was no bear claw in the box. I wanted a bear claw. Did you get a bear claw? No, that's all I got. I can go get you one. No, it's fine. Close it and like You you could you could have directed the sequel The Hook, probably. I was this close. You know, you were that close. If they had just had a bear claw, I wouldn't even be able to talk to you, right? No, no, no. You'd be talking to my people who talk to my people. Yep, yep. So it's really all about pastry. Yeah. That's pretty classic. Were you just crushed when he said it wanted to claim? I was fairly stunned. Like, was I supposed to get a bear claw? No one said bear claw. I'm pretty sure no one said bear claw. And I call the office assistant, like, like, was I supposed to get a bear claw? Because Steven said bear claw. Really? He never asked for a bear claw. Well, today he did, and I didn't have it. And you've ruined my career. My career is done. Right. So this 250 bucks a week. Guess what? Say goodbye. Yep. So hook finishes. There's an opening in as just sort of a general ⁓ PA, right? And ⁓ so I said, sure. So I stay on for another couple years. And their program at the time was like, you're there for a few years. And when a show comes up and you're ready to be transitioned out, you go be a PA on the show either in the production office or on set. On one of their shows. So they slowly move people up the up the ladder. Right. If the obviously if they see something where moving up the ladder. Yeah. So like during this time, you know, I got to have a little bit of interaction with development. Everyone kinda knew, ⁓ Eric, he wants to be a cinematographer. You know, I met Alan Davio, ⁓ I met Ken Zunder, I'm Mikhail Solomon, right? These are all people who are doing ⁓ Amblin related big cinematography. Shows Yeah. so Fast forward to sort of the end of like when ⁓ Jurassic Park starts to prep. ⁓ Jurassic Park was a Steven Spielberg movie for those people who don't know. Yeah, go ahead. Right. So the first Jurassic Park, ⁓ Dean Cundy shot it. ⁓ Clyde Bryan was one of the focus bullers. Massive first assistant. Yes. Legend. Steve Svetku was the loader. So I knew the loader position was kind of the entry level. So they're probably They're doing pre-production for Jurassic Park, and Steven had this l lipstick camera at the time, which was a s lipstick-shaped little camera that he would like to use with the production designer and other, you know, Phil Tippett and all the people who were designing ⁓ animatronic, you know, or puppet-run dinosaurs with the miniatures. So ⁓ so he those were miniatures, so he was using the lipstick cam to sort of get a small camera into ⁓ you'd probably use an iPhone now, but ⁓ but back then, yeah. Yeah, so the perspective inside the Jeep, outside the Jeep, blah blah blah. ⁓ wow. So the administrator says, ⁓ Eric, you know about cameras, right? Yeah, go go run this thing. ⁓ they want to do it in a meeting in in ten minutes for Jurassic Park. ⁓ okay, great. So I grabbed a little recorder, the lipstick camera. And I was a bystander, but I turned the thing on, I set it up, and I'm waiting. And here's like you know, like the highest level of filmmakers in this room, and they're playing with these toys, and one guy is making dinosaur noises, and Steven is like, and then the Jeep comes around, and it stops right here. And then it backs up, and then the dinosaur. And ⁓ like that was pretty awesome. That's cool. so Shortly after Jurassic Park starts production, ⁓ I get put on ⁓ they had a show called Sequest. ⁓ yeah. Sequest DSV D S V. Yeah, yeah, Royce Rider. It was like an under they lived underwater or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And ⁓ this was my first experience on a television show. And the pilot, ⁓ Irv Kirschner directed the pilot, who also directed Empire Strikes Back, right? Yeah. And ⁓ it was like a twenty two, twenty five day pilot. Which by today's standards is like does not happen. That's a season now. Yes. And ⁓ so you know, t these days on sets you might have six PAs, eight PAs, not uncommon. On this show we had one PA, me. Wow. The only PA on the show on set Fourteen hours a day. And it's r this is really kind of your first time being on a big show and all that. Wow. So talk about being thrown in the pool. I had z and I didn't even want to be an assistant director, right? Like a good PA wants to be an A D someda. Sure. Right? Which I had no desire to do. So like it would be like, okay, this is the last shot. We're not gonna make the call sheet t ⁓ call time for tomorrow. Eric, we need you to run up to the office. Get those call sheets and they gotta be down here in five minutes. Cause when they call rap, if I don't have call sheets to hand out, it's a bad scenario. And we gotta r you know, ⁓ Sharpie change the c on all of them before we hand them out. So, like I had zero hustle factor when it came to working for a complete dickhead first AD. Abusive, womanizer, so many such so bad. And the poor second AD was like I would see her in the corner of the stage crying because he was so mean to her at times, right? That's that's the dark side of this industry that maybe it doesn't get talked about enough. Because it does exist, right? There are a lot of people who just like Yeah just shouldn't have the power they have and and ⁓ It's good that that things have changed a lot. People wouldn't put up with Yeah. It'd be an HR. Yeah. so this was sort of my first like, you know, like sort of realization that like, hey, wait a second. This movie business stuff is not always so nice and so fair and equitable, right? Yeah. ⁓ and there were like I was probably one of two or three black faces on a show. ⁓ really? So yeah. Yeah, ninety six. And still it was still it was that. I I I lose track of time on things, but I guess maybe that was the case, yeah. Yeah, there was a a grip. Who was black, there was, you know, like I could count on one hand. So the amount of like dialogue that you would overhear, like, you know what, that shit ain't appropriate, but like I'm gonna PA, so what am I supposed to do about it? Aaron Y you mean you mean amount of dialogue meaning thing with racial, really. Yes. Was like, you know, because a lot of these people who were sort of old timers at the time were starting on shows like I don't know, the Munsters or there was a driver who like, yeah, I used to drive the three stooges around, right? So like the old old Hollywood When it was acceptable to just talk openly, like big time. Yeah. That's amazing s a grip say, Yeah, bring me bring me a Gary Coleman, you know, and you know, on a C stand. Yeah. You know, things like that. Or bring me that one. What was a Gary Coleman? A Gary Coleman Was a short C stand or was like a short ⁓ Solid. Short shor flag. Okay. I vaguely remember people. Right. Well that's that's one of the nicer ones that people used to use. ⁓ for sure. I I remember do you r remember ⁓ when you first f found out what a Ubangy was? Yeah, 'cause a Ubangi for people who don't know is and I'm using it now for e reasons to explain it, but it's an offset off of a dolly, which is basically just this sort of like long what what would that shape be? Oval almost flat oval. But you would put it on the dolly and so it would sort of move the head, you know, three feet out or two feet out or whatever. And I came into the business you bang, you bang, you bang, you bang, you bang you. And then at one point someone said, You know what that term is? And ⁓ no. They said, Well that those are that that's an African tribe that used to put the things in their lips to move ⁓ out. If you look at the ones that have done it forever It has a similar shape. And so everybody stopped calling it that. And every once in a while the funny thing is now I run into older folks who say that and for my first thing is like I j the hair on the back of my neck goes up and then I go over and I go, dude, you can't say that it's an offset. Yeah. It's just not acceptable anymore. But it's amazing how this it's it's interesting for me to hear you say all this because number one, it's amazing how how well it's amazing how much has changed in in a relative short amount of time, which is good. But it's also amazing to me how clueless I was to the fact that probably a lot more of this was going on and it didn't impact me. Sure. Not because I didn't care, but just because it, you know, I'm I'm trying to be an operator, I'm trying to do whatever and I'm I'm so busy with but ⁓ but so you were very aware of this. Yeah. I was aware that like people who were closest to me, my family and friends who were either black or white. Like th this kind of terminology was like Like you would often joke about like, you know, someone who who was a friend of yours, but not really like from the outside. Like, how can you say that as a joke and you don't even know me? Like like you don't have that level, we don't have that rapport yet, right? Yes. So I Wait, let me just ask you a question before you go on. Did did that negatively impact you when you heard these things? Like how did you how did you What did that do to you? Yeah, it did at first. Like it made me really like ⁓ feel like I should say something and many years where I didn't say anything and I would just like quietly step away and back away right now. And you would but but you would then take sort of like the maybe shame isn't the right word, but you would feel badly about the fact that you didn't step up and say something. Yeah, like you But you're a PA and you you're Like you're the lowest on the totem pole and like what could I do? It's weird, right? Because there's that thing of it's like, well in the structure of the film, I'm nobody. Yeah. But in the world I'm I got just as much rights as as you do, but I also want to keep my ja ⁓ that's true. Man, I can't imagine like the emotional sort of stress that must cause. I I have no I have no frame of reference for that at all. And and you know, like the as the the kind of the years go on and there starts to be more of a tide shift towards, hey, let's have departments represent, you know, what society world looks like or the world. Like, you know, it wasn't uncommon for me to like all the the early on assistants and, you know, operators who like were super nice to me and gave me all kind of chances, like To hear them later on say, like, ⁓ yeah, I'm I'm really looking, you know, I c I can't find work because they want a woman or they want someone of color, and you know, it's like and now you have to process like that, like, ⁓ I feel for you because you know, we've always been cool together, and I know you're an excellent ⁓ technician and artist. but ⁓ have you seen the camera departments lately? Right? Like this has been ongoing like since the beginning of my career for twenty years. And ⁓ in a perfect world, everybody gets a chance and everybody gets a job based on their skill level and their potential. ⁓ I think the initial pushback, and tell me what you think about this. Y you know, there was that I I don't know, years anyway. But there was that point where it's like, we're just gonna get a camera department just using camera department is it is it? that looks more like the world. So we're gonna get women in there, we're gonna get people of color in there. But unfortunately, because it was like a w a a white male club for the long time, and I don't know about you, but I never from what I've learned, it wasn't as much as like it was like, let's keep those people out. It was more just like, no, the only people who got in were like the sons of other people. And of course if you started with white guys, you ended with white guys. And that's kind of the way it was. I mean I'm sh I'm not saying there wasn't some of that, of course there was. But I think at the beginning it was a little bit like we're just gonna fix this by getting people in here. And at the beginning, unfortunately, there were people who got into some of those positions who weren't quite ready for it. Right. And and of course, just like you and I, they were like, Yeah, I'll take that that opportunity. I don't care why it's coming 'cause I'm I'm moving up. And so I think at the beginning there was all there was some pushback and now I'm finding at least that that you know, there they're there are people of color and women who are ha have moved up the ladder and have done the work and are are in there because they deserve to be in there. Right. But did you did you does that does that mess with your mind sometimes of like am I getting this job because I'm good or am I getting this job because I check a box? ⁓ yes. Like there is no doubt that especially when I first moved up to operating like ⁓ you know like I look around and I see a cast that's either almost all African American or pretty much And a DP who I may or may not know, like no one actually says, hey, ⁓ we want a black operator, so can you come and like do the show, right? But it just kind of feels that way. Like I know there are operators way better than me. not a lot, but there are some. Exactly. And ⁓ like what am I doing here? Like when I did Hunters, like I loved Hunters was the Amazon show. Yes. Season two of Which by the way, like known for its camera work. I For sure. Or I don't know if it's known, but it should be. Having seen it, it's like the camera work is insane in that. Right. So John Lindley, who I've known for years, and great cinematographer. One of the cameramen who like I was an assistant. I met him on season two of Snow S Snowfall. Which is where I met you. I think I don't know if I knew you before. You didn't. I knew your name, but I didn't know what you look like. And I remember the day You came to put your stuff on the camera truck because you were starting to be much better looking than I was. I thought you'd be No wait, wait, you you I was better looking than you thought I would be. That's what it is. No, no, you had it right. Yeah. So we were over by LA City College. I remember I remember the shot we were doing, the lens I was on. We were you came and I was like, who is this guy talking to all the camera people? He's putting it 'cause I knew a ton of people there. Yeah, of course. ⁓ So I met John Lindley on that as an assistant, and then shortly after that, I did one other show as an assistant, and then I bumped up to operating full time, and I finished that show as an operator. And ⁓ so John really gave me the opportunity. Like he put my name in the hat for hunters, and it may have been because, like, hey, we don't want an all white camera department, and like you're at least can sit there, be quiet, and do your job. Yeah. So that was a show with ⁓ John Lindley. Will Rexer and Terry Siegel. Will Rexer's the other cinematographer, great guy. Right. So Terry Siegel was who? ⁓ one of the cinematographers. ⁓ there was three. ⁓ yeah. Gotcha. so John I already knew. He said, Hey, do you are you interested? I'll put your name in the hat. Yeah, okay. So Will is on the East Coast, he'll probably call you. Terry called me. I think she was in maybe Chicago at the time. So I just phone interviewed and you know, I looked up the show and like Al Pacino's on this show? Like there's people better than me that, you know, clearly have a better resume. And ⁓ I was on a show and I had another sh I got this show, right? I had a show lined up, like maybe two weeks off. Like this is great. ⁓ Ron Baldwin was the A camera stuff that came operator that yeah. Right. Great, great guy. Great actor. ⁓ so this is a big budget show, period piece, great cinematographers, an opportunity to to really like Will is such a ⁓ like his only requirement was like if you got an idea for a shot, and it if it it's gotta be a cool shot, you set it up, it's a cool shot, you can do it. And ⁓ so it was a a little bit of a free for all. Like I could always ⁓ find something to get. ⁓ and one of the things I learned really early on, like Todd Dos Reese is a cinematographer who I met as I was he doesn't remember this, but He was a focus puller on a show and I came in as a day player. I think we were both day players. And I was his second. And this is another thing where I remember the location we were at, the shot you were doing. I was your second, like very specifically. Yeah. so Todd was also a DP who I assisted for and then operated on a number of shows for. Did you do Crazy X Girlfriend? I Crazy X Girlfriend. I bumped up on Crazy X Girlfriend. We did Rebel together. ⁓ I did probably two-thirds or half of ⁓ a show called ⁓ Council of Dads with Todd. and like I my ability to sort of survive and you know navigate this industry, I think has always been like, I'm gonna look at other people's fuck ups and I'm not gonna do that. Right. Everybody who's listening who's trying to get into this business, listen to what he just said. Right. Because that is n what, ⁓ 90% of how you learn? Easily. Yeah. Keep your mouth shut. You don't always have to be the loudest guy on set because that's not your job. Your job is to keep your mouth shut, look at other people's fuck ups, and don't do that. Because when you do the opposite and you have a department head who is still thinking their wheels are turning about what someone else did that got them fired, and you don't do that, you're gonna hear someone say, Y you got good instincts. I'm so glad, blah blah blah blah blah blah. And you're like, well, you know, it's that's just what I do, right? But really, it's because You keep your mouth shut and you watch other people's fuck ups. And by the way, while you're saying that, you're going, I wonder if you can see the sweat on my forehead. On my bald forehead. But you know, I I I one of the people that I learned a lot under was Chris Chulak, who was the showrunner on ER. And ⁓ and I was just I was like a kid when I got on ER, so I was just like sucking in as much information as I could from everybody. And you know, he said to me ⁓ at one point, he said, Listen You will learn more by watching people fail than you ever will by watching people succeed. Because when people succeed, first of all, sometimes it's very quietly. You don't there's nothing to see. Like you don't really even notice it. And then sometimes you see something unbelievable and you can take some notes from that, but it's very, very rare. But you see people screw up constantly All the time. And people who get made paid good money. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so, you know, you just go, okay, ⁓ that I'm not gonna do that. Or if I do that, I'm gonna do it that way. So I don't get you know, but it's there's there's there's so ⁓ if nothing else, people should recognize that because it's ⁓ when I learned that I was like, ⁓ that makes a lot of sense. Such a big part of the Then I'd be like, you know, I'm running next to the guy as he's driving off the lot going, Why did you get fired? What did you do? I need to know. Hang on, slow down, come back. There's a great line in training day where Denzel Washington says Keep your mouth shut and your ears open and you'll learn a lot. Like when your mouth is shut and your ears are open, and you see someone else screwing up and you remember to not do that, then you're gonna you're gonna be okay. Early on, I was a loader. There was a show called Baywatch. And the loader on that show, the camera truck was parked on Santa Monica Pier, and we were shooting probably on the beach one or two lifeguard stations away. And this guy, he told me, Eric. When you're low when you go from the set to the camera truck, always be running. Like everyone should see you hustling all the time. That's the only way you're gonna make it. So funny, 'cause that's the opposite of what everybody tells you, right? Like so Randy told me, Eric, when someone's running around on set, it's because they've probably screwed something up. Yeah. So cut to there was a movie called Seven, right? And ⁓ David Emmerich was the operator on that. Brad Edmondston was one of the ⁓ assistants and Johnny Walker was one of the assistants. I think Johnny Walker may have been the key assistant. Okay. So the same loader was on that show. So I came in, right? Day player, right, extra cameras, ⁓ Aton 35mm mags, notoriously horrible to load. Really hard to load. Right. Yeah. And Johnny Walker told me, like, ⁓ if you can load these, you'll be fine. If you screw it up, we'll find out in dailies the next day, and we probably can't have you come back. So everything was fine. So the loader ⁓ called in sick. Eric, can you come in? ⁓ of course. I come in. ⁓ doesn't check in the next day. There was very few cell phones, maybe a pager at the time. Yeah. And ⁓ so because I was covering him, I didn't know who the loader even was. I was just coming in, filling in the thing. So three days of him not showing up, and then the ⁓ Johnny says, Do you want to just finish the show? I have no idea what's going on with this guy. ⁓ of course, no problem. Next day I come in, I'm in the dark room, and I hear bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Like like ⁓ hang on, someone's in here. I'm like in the middle of a mag. So I'll get the mag closed and taped up and I open the door. So now I'm seeing the same guy from Baywatch who told me to run all the time. Wow, who who came back going, Why did you take my job? Right. So he's there and he's late for work and finally showed up on day four and he said, What are you doing here? And I said, ⁓ what are you doing here? You better go talk to Johnny. Click, close the door and I log it, and I just hear this cacophony outside the you know, the dark room of like, get your s and I think it was Brad Edmondston said, Get your stuff and get off the truck. Wow. And like after I mean it was a little chicken shit of me, but after it was like totally died down, I kind of stuck my head out like, Whoa. That's a tough one. Wow. So be careful when people give you advice, always think of what is the source and what's their motivation. ⁓ yeah. W I I assisted on twenty four for a handful of seasons and Rodney Charters, who was another That's a name I haven't heard in a long time, Rodney Charters. Like great guy, great eye, loves the technology. When something new comes up that helps him do his job better, he fully embraces it. And you know, I watched him like ⁓ excuse my French, but like An operator pointed a camera in a certain direction, and Rodney said, What the fuck are you doing? Don't fucking point your fucking camera over there. I don't fu I'm not fucking lit over there. What's wrong with you? So ⁓ when I was working with Todd, he also like is zero filter on how he's feeling and how he thinks the shots are going and When you're the cinematographer, you're processing what the producers want you to do, what the director, who sometimes has zero clue, wants you to do, and what your crew is capable of, and you know, outputting a result that's like on par with your work quality or even better. so learning from cinematographers like when you're w when you're on the B camera, like You know, I've heard through this podcast there are certain operators who feel like there is a big distinction in A versus B. It goes both ways. It goes both ways. And I've heard people say, like, nope, it's it's just a way to distinguish who's doing which shots. So I as a B f B camera f focus puller, especially on snowfall, like really embraced like we're not gonna get any marks. ⁓ we're you're gonna wing it and some of it's gonna be great and some of it's not gonna be great. But there's gonna be enough pieces to where you like the editors will come down or the the director when they're cutting their episode will come back and s you know, r appreciate those little pieces that you got for them. And you it's worth saying that at least when I was working with you, you were with Patrick Rousseau, who's the B camera operator, who was just so great. ⁓ I I had Jess Lackoff here who was the A camera first. She was the first thing with me. And We used to joke about the fact that, you know, I'd I'd spend forty five minutes setting up this unbelievable shot and I was like, This is now the greatest shot ever created in the history of mankind. People were gonna sing my my name in the streets. And I Hey Patrick, what you'd have? And you'd go, I just got this small thing over here and I'd look at it and I go, God, that's so much better than anything I've ever thought of. So at least y you were you were always doing interesting stuff. You guys killed it. Yeah. And you would hear from Video Village like As the shot, right, you're going through the scene and the director calls cut and the director would say, Patrick, that was fucking great. And then you just hear me quietly sobbing in the corner. Right, yeah. But no, there's no question about it. I mean I I have to say, and I've brought it up before on this podcast, that show, Patrick on B camera, ⁓ is some of the best use of B camera I've ever seen. Just yeah. He was so great at going Well, if I'm underneath the faucet in the sink when he walks by, I'll grab this moment and it's like, ⁓ God, that's so perfect. One of the worst things is when you're do a shot, the take is wasted, you have to do it again, and you know what the actor needs to do to make the shot successful. Yep. If the director doesn't give the actor the note on what to do, then I feel like if I don't say it, we're gonna do this again. So you really have to tread lightly when it comes to giving an actor a note, because if the director specifically wants something and what you tell the actor con conf conflicts with that, and then the actor says, Well, Eric said I should do it this way, then all eyes are on you, and you end up ⁓ you know, feeling like a schmuck. I I was on ⁓ as an assistant on Wrinkle and Time on one of the last sort of multiple second units they had. And the operator who was a day player operator or someone had to leave and they bumped up and whatever. And I was focus puller and ⁓ the director, Ava Duvarne, was sort of offset. It was a huge green screen thing and proximity was not, you know, possible for her to be close. So every time ⁓ Mindy Kaling's character would turn around, Oprah Winfrey would be blocked. And we were on a long lens r so like it was a simple thing of all you gotta do is turn around and lean on your left to clear her. So ⁓ I had this ⁓ hoodie from a show called Black Jesus that I was wearing and ⁓ so we did take one, she was blocked. We did take two, she was blocked. Ava would come out and say, I don't know what's going on, but ⁓ you know every time you're blocked And the operator, who I was really glad it wasn't me at the time, didn't have the you know, know really what the protocol was and how to like get it right. So we just kept going in. So Oprah looks over to me and she said, Black Jesus, what's the problem? And it's like, ⁓ damn, now she's asking me for notes. So now not only am I, you know, doing what the director should be doing, but the operator, who I had no idea who it was, yeah. And I said, Well looked at him and he had his hands in his pocket and his head down. That's a tough situation to be in. And I said, Well, maybe if Mindy leans on her left a little bit and if you lean on your right a little bit ⁓ clear. It'll you'll clear because you're just really too stacked up. Yeah. And she said, Well, why didn't anyone say that? I said, Well, you know, there's a lot going on and people have to Because the industry is based on fear, and that's Yeah, the industry is horrible and we all should have made better decisions and stayed in school and become dentists. But But it is ⁓ it's a tough one because you don't wanna be too much in the mix and and at the same time you want you wanna be an asset and move things for For sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know I've been in situations like that before where, you know, something hasn't been said, so I'll just go up to the director and go, I just wanna make sure do you want them clear here? Because I can clear them, but it seems like you haven't tried to fi and that they'll let's say no I'm specifically doing that 'cause I want to force the cut or something, you know, whatever. Right. ⁓ it's like, okay, great. Then I th I didn't say anything for that reason, you know. Yeah. ⁓ and then then the other weird thing that happens is then you get hip o hip actors who will come up and go, Can you see me there? Yeah, for sure. And then you don't want to sell the director out and go, Well no, he doesn't want to see there. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ you know, and it's ⁓ I don't know what the answer to that is actually. I mean, there's there's no one right answer. Yeah. Like I really like it when the director trusts the operators and you know, ⁓ If a shot is not working for the B camera but is for the A camera, you know, to have a director yell out, Eric, fix it, right? Then it's like then you know you have ⁓ you know, the opportunity to like, okay, come a little this way, da da da da. But I always I always check with ⁓ the other operator. Like I don't wanna set up a shot that's gonna be good for me, but bone them. but you know, then I've also had DPs who will Tell the A operator, don't be so greedy, let B camera get some of the some of the, you know, coverage. ⁓ so it's really like both operators have to work together and you have some operators who have a bigger bigger ego than others. And like, I'm gonna shoot this like a true single camera show. And you mean the A camera operator when you're B camera. Right. Yep. And you'll have the you know, you might get an insert later, but This is really a one camera show. Yeah. so you kinda really can f feel out what's the vibe of the show. Like does the other operator have a chip on their shoulder? Did they want someone else? Right? Like at the end of the day, there's always someone who knows someone else, and you might not be everybody's first choice, but you're there right now. And ⁓ you know, getting back to what we were talking about earlier, which was when you speak up and when you don't speak up. Right? Like hundred percent. Usually if it gets really vocal on set, like I'm committed to this being my last day, right? And if this is how it's gonna go down, it's gonna go down and everybody's gonna see it. ⁓ but ⁓ more often than not, like I've been in situations where the for whatever reason, either the A operator or the B operator or the B dollar group or the A dollar group has an issue with the way I'm doing you name it. And ⁓ You know, let's get through this shot, right? Let's make it as good as we can. And then ⁓ I'm a big fan of can I talk to you for a second? Like, come over here for a second. And a lot of times like being quiet and being subtle about it is more intimidating than throwing a fit in front of everybody. So what y when you say come over here for a second, what do you what do you say? I'm the A camera operator that you're calling over. What do you So if you're the A camera operator and I'm so aggravated and frustrated that I can't do what the DP wants me to do. Because I'm basically blocking you out or I'm not working with you and you're like, can we just move this desk two inches? And I'm like, no, that desk has to be there. And you know that that's not the case. So I can get in close. Nope, sorry, can't do it. Yep. So I I'm a big fan of like Dave, can I talk to you for a second? Look, I know we both got a hard job to do and ⁓ for whatever reason I feel like like you feel like my shots are not as valid or as important as your shots. And it shouldn't become a thing where someone has to tattletale on someone else, but you and I need to figure out how to make this work. Otherwise it's not gonna work. You know, if it doesn't work for me, ⁓ it's gonna get extremely difficult. And, you know, like the truth is we gotta be together like twelve, fourteen hours a day. And we don't have to like each other, but we gotta, you know create a result that leads to both of us coming back the next day. And if your reaction is like, I'm the A operator, I don't give a shit about the B camera operator, and I would really prefer you sitting on the truck than being here taking up real estate. If it gets to that level, then you know, then like, okay, maybe I need to say something to the D P. Maybe I need to say like, you know, this I love working on the show, but it's really not working out and ⁓ You know. I've thankfully knock on wood in my career have yet to be fired off of a show. But I always have this like going out in a blaze of glory, you know, ⁓ plan that, you know, I I thankfully haven't had to use. But most people, unless they're really sociopaths, have the ability to like you know what, you're right. Like let's Let's just let's figure this out. Like can you go maybe out a little longer lens and come in a little closer or let me talk to my dolly grip and see if we can do this. Right? Like Yeah. And y you know, w what I'll add to that that usually works for me is I will and this is this has nothing to do with operating, this just has to do with psychology, is I'll give them an out. Hey, first of all, I feel like I'm in your way. Yeah. You know, and and I don't want to be in your way. but I gotta g but ⁓ you know, they they give me shots to do and we're not gonna make our day like Maybe I'm misunderstanding you and whatever. And nine times out of ten what I find is if I give them that out where it's like, I I'm screwing up, not you, you know they'll usually take it and be like, ⁓ I didn't know, I didn't realize that was happening. ⁓ I'm so sorry. And it's basically like wink wink nudge nudge, but you know, it's like it's like the warning shot of like this one I'm giving you and the next one I'm gonna basically stand up in the middle of the set and go, This guy is screwing No I wouldn't do that. But but I think and and in talking to the director of photography, you know, Something worth mentioning because I've done this before, where I'll just go, look, I I there's a situation that's going on here that I just don't think is working and I I'm not able to do the job you're hiring me to do. So I think maybe we're better off getting someone else in here who can you know and again sort of putting it on myself and going, look, I just am not giving you the work. ⁓ and and so, you know, as opposed to going, I won't put up with this or, you know, hell hell with you or whatever. Yeah. And most DPs will kinda already know what's going on, I think. You know, somewhat. Yeah, and I don't I don't think finger pointing and you know like that never like when the words come out of your mouth, you never get them back. That's true. Right? It's like toothpaste. Once you squeeze it out, you cannot put it back in the tube. I've tried, it does not go well. Just doesn't work. It's messy. No. ⁓ but over my so this, let's see. This is my next year will be my thirtieth year as a member of Local Six Hundred. And how many years operating? ⁓ pr full time, probably five. Okay. Yeah. And then there was a handful of years where I was kinda go going back and forth. And then it got to a point where I got the phone call from Local Six Hundred saying ⁓ Everybody. Yeah, everybody. It's time to ⁓ you know Yeah, and for anybody who doesn't know you can you can work out a category for thirty days, I think. Yeah, thirty days. ⁓ a year. And then if and then if you don't ⁓ you know, if you're an assistant you work as an operator for not thirty one days, but fifty days they'll probably find out about it and and call you and they'll go, look, you gotta either like recl re reclassify or you gotta stay an assistant. So what was that like for you to go? 'Cause you were you were a like very well you were first of all you were a great assistant, but you're always a very well known assistant. Like people knew you and knew when you call Eric Dyson, you get good work and he's easy to work with and all that. And then suddenly you you go from being like, hey, I'm super comfortable and I don't even need to get marks anymore and blah blah blah to like, ⁓ God You know, what was that like? Yeah. So ⁓ what do they call it when you're ⁓ Abject fear. That but also when you're ⁓ you're impersonating impostor syndrome, big time. ⁓ there were so many t it's when you're on a show and the director of photography supports you, like, yeah, you do B camera. Yeah, that's cool, we got you. You know, you know that and like You're just screwing up left and right, but everything is all right. Like it's a safe environment. And the assistants are like going, No, we want Eric to make it and hey Eric, you gotta take the lock off the wheels before you turn it. Yeah, you do that, right? This this is how you make it go up right now. ⁓ okay, yeah. Right. So like supportive environment. And then you go out and people who don't know you as an operator, and then it's like and I had this conversation with myself a lot, like, if I was a focus puller, like I could be chilling over there on that seat. with my monitor. Mm basically like what have I done? Yeah. Why why did I do Why am I doing this? I'm making less money because I'm not working as often. ⁓ I am not as comfortable doing the job. Yeah. And, you know, basically every day I go home and like ⁓ I don't leave anything on the truck because if I get tapped on the shoulder at rep, then you're not coming back Tomorrow to get your steady. Yeah, the the slink back to get your stuff after you've informed stuff. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, like I'll be like, well, I guess I should go get my study camp, but I don't really need it. Maybe I'll just leave it. Maybe this is it for the I don't want to go back there. Yeah. But ⁓ so why did why did you move up? Was it just were you bored with ⁓ ch that you needed a challenge or No, I mean I've always I've worked with enough people over the years that were super burnt out, whether they were firsts or seconds or operators who like ⁓ Like, ⁓ I fucking hate this shit. ⁓ it's a grind. ⁓ you it's not like it used to be. ⁓ blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, ⁓ yeah, you sound miserable. Like that totally doesn't make sense while you're here every day. I mean, I get it. Like you make any of those categories, if you work enough, you make a healthy living and you can do okay. It's golden handcuffs. Exactly. Right. ⁓ and I always felt like I stayed in each category a little longer because it was comfortable. And kind of when I got to that point, like I really started to make ⁓ you know, want to change to move up to the next category. So, yeah, so I a s was a focus puller for I don't know, probably ten years, maybe twelve years. And at that point it's like I could do this the rest of my life, or ⁓ I can be an operator and I can really start to, you know, like if I really think I want to direct someday, operating is like Like I know with a good operator's eye, I can give the director shots that they will use and an editor shots that they will use to condense all of this screen time where nothing is really happening. and once I got over the fear factor of hi, I'm an operator now, not an assistant who wants to be an operator, and I felt like my voice and my shot selections were valid. And I I stopped sort of listening to all of the sort of inner demons that like, you know, don't just wait for someone to say, this is what I want you to do. Start pre-planning it and start auditioning shots that even if it's not what they think they want, if you set it up in a way that they're like, ⁓ yeah, that's cool, go ahead and do that. Like, you know, you can really start to pave a way for yourself to not just be like, ⁓ it's the B camera operator, he's probably on the truck. He's, you know, kind of tuned out. ⁓ like I always like to read the scripts. I always like to talk with the cinematographer about like, you know, if there's like a visual style that they wanna like keep in place, right? Like I wanna be not overly enthusiastic, but aware of what all the important beats are in the episode, in the scene, if there's a Bible that they've put together. I worked a little bit on the tail end of winning time. in their last season. And we were like, I don't know, eight cameras, ten cameras. ⁓ on the basketball games also. Yeah, yeah, for all the coverage for the Lakers versus Celtics playoffs. And what I've heard about that show, it's just just shoot cool stuff. I mean there's some things that are specific, but the rest is just give us cool stuff. Right, right. Give us cool stuff. Know when to shoot the green screen and when not. ⁓ but that show, when I later look at it was like wow, as far as like a completely different style of d kind of documentary mixed with narrative filmmaking was like all those little things I kind of put in my toolbox so when I'm shooting something or if I'm directing something like I'm gonna pull from this and I'm gonna pull from that. ⁓ one of the things that Spielberg did ⁓ early on, like before he was who he was, like he would know shots he wanted to emulate and like totally just rip ⁓ off and he might have a pickup truck instead of, you know, a ⁓ a Chapman crane, but like just make it work with what you have. So that keeps on repeating in my head. Gotcha. Right? Like what do you want visually what's the story you're trying to tell and what are the tools you have that you can use to tell the story. When you made the jump front y your first day or your first week or whatever operating, ⁓ and I know it happens slowly, but you know, when you really were were were this is it What were the what was one of the what were some of the hardest hurdles you had to overcome? ⁓ definitely like set etiquette as far as like ⁓ what's in your frame, right? And what's in your frame that you need to tell the A camera can it move back a little bit or can it come in a little bit? And also the key grip and the gaffer, what you need because if they say, Okay, set and right, bring in first team and like My good friend John Lindley, who was always like, you know, so supportive and a nice guy, like when you see the other side of someone who's super nice and super fantastic because you didn't do your job a hundred percent, that's when you realize, all right, I won't make that mistake again. Yeah, John is a wonderful person, but he also expects you to do your job. Yes. And and and he is also the type of person who I I'm gonna guess, ⁓ you know, will go, Yeah, we'll totally support you to move up. Yeah. And and we'll give you a couple of breaks, but you're not gonna get a lot. No you've gotta be ready to do this and you've gotta do the job, which is fair. For sure. Yeah. So knowing like w when to speak up about like, you know, that's totally in your shot. Like you you need to get a good shot. You can't just pan left or pan right. Yeah. Right. So being proactive enough to first of all, remember the key grip and the gaffers names so you can you know, speak to them directly. Yeah. ⁓ to make sure that, you know, you're when they say when the eight camera operator says, All right, we're set, like you better be set too. Gotcha. ⁓ that was a hurdle, you know, prepping the first assistant for like, we're gonna do this, but we might also do that. ⁓ only because you weren't sure of you weren't sure of it? Like the dog is gonna come in and the dog is supposed to sit and bark, but if it doesn't, yeah, I don't want to waste an opportunity to get something a little bit different. Gotcha. But I'm saying your your your problem with that was more you just weren't sure what to tell them you might do. Right. Or to tell them like or to tell them at all. Yeah. Like, you know, you're so sphinctered up like not even knowing what you're gonna be prepared for and like Because most focus pullers are not right at the camera right now. Yeah. ⁓ That's so funny because coming from where you were, that obviously is something you would expect from an operator. But the weird thing is and and I've seen this many, many times, it's like you jump up to the next level and you completely forget the last level. People people look at it, you know, like I I I've had operators who have jumped up to D P and I'll work with them. And you turn him and be like, Did you ever operate? Yeah, operator for forty five years. It's like, well then how can you be this stupid? Like you know what I have to do here. But it is amazing because you get so overwhelmed with your new job that you forget about all that stuff. Yeah. So when I work with a focus puller who's like, Settle down, buddy. I got you. Here's what's gonna happen. That's a good thing. Right. It's so fantastic. Like then you kind of Which is what you would have done probably, right? Yeah. Probably so. I more if if I could be on the lens next to the dolly, like from my cold dead hands, that's where I wanted to be a focus puller. ⁓ so when you have a focus puller who's like either they've been doing it long time or they're committed to it for their career, and they tell you like s you know, 'cause they're seeing it from a totally different perspective. Absolutely. Right. And a lot of times they've worked with assistants who've become operators so many times and like can kind of talk you off the ledge a little bit. ⁓ it really kinda lets your guard down a little bit and you super appreciate it. And ⁓ like when you have a when you're first starting out as an operator and you have a first assistant who wants you to succeed and wants the, you know, you as a team to get really great stuff, that's like money in the bank. Yeah. And I think the the part of that though is you have to be able to tamp your own ego down to go Okay, the discussion that we're having now tells me that you recognize that I am not as good as I want to be. Right. And that I need help. And I'm okay with that. Because there's some that you know because I think what it is is you want to go, no, I know how to do everything and I know how to do this job well and whatever. Because you do. But but I think that's an unbelievably important part of and I still have it by the way, right. When with new technology especially where I'll go I don't know how this works. Like you know how the can tell me how this works. Right. Like how many remote heads are there? Right. ⁓ God. And how like the the methodology for speeding up or slowing down the pan and the tilt and dampening the starts and the stops. Like like hey Eric, ⁓ why don't you hop on the crane and do the remote shot? All right, good. So I'll stand at the console for like, you know, getting the sweat off my palms because you gotta know which way to turn the little wheel things. Yeah. Right? Yep. ⁓ the more you think about it, the worse it is. It's unbelievable. And after thirty years it's still the same thing. Right. Never changes. And like, all right, so I'll kinda give it a little bit of a thing and I'll look at the thing. Is the camera moving? Okay, it's not moving. ⁓ which is the okay. And either the head tech comes over or the first AC comes over and like, dude, how do I just make the thing work? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, but it's absolutely right. And and the thing is If your ego gets in the way you'll go, ⁓ well maybe if I turn this button, I don't want anybody to know or whatever. Whereas I'll just go up and be How do I make this go faster? 'Cause I it's like ⁓ it has to happen quickly. I'm like, which knob is it? You know. Yeah. I I mean I was just doing an Apple commercial the other day and I showed up ⁓ I was filling in for someone, so you know, the crew was all together and it was yeah, I don't it was one of these ⁓ heads that I haven't used in a long time. Of course. And it's things are in front of me and I ⁓ the first shot up, I just needed I needed to be able to pan a little faster and I Look for two seconds and then I was Can you ⁓ where's our head tech? Can you just make this go fat? Yeah, okay. Turn this up. And then of course I know and it's fine. But but I think you have to have the mentality of going, I don't have to have all the answers. I just gotta be able to get the shot. So there was there was a time like when a Panaflex was like completely foreign to me. Like I had a Panaflex is a thirty five millimeter Panavision camera. I didn't know what an IRC was, I didn't know what an L R B was, I didn't know what a any of that's I don't know what any of that is, by the way. Yep. So there was a time when I was a loader and I thought, all right, I can load mags, put the film in the thing and keep it from getting exposed, and then take it out and safely put it in a can. But I will never be able to know all these parts and pieces. And then as an assistant, like realizing I c will I could be blindfolded and if all the parts are in the room, I can build a panaflex, I can pull the movement, I could probably thread the camera, close the door, right? Yeah. So Knowing that you might not know it right now, but you know, you're gonna bite off a little bit at a time and you're gonna get more comfortable. ⁓ you know, coming to that understanding with all the technology, I think, is like pretty key. And the technology keeps changing, right? Like at this point the technology absolutely does. And I think also part of that is recognizing you're gonna screw up. Mm-hmm. And everybody screws up. I mean, I again I've been doing this a long time. I screw up all the time. The key is to not let it destroy you. Yeah. And also to hopefully not let anybody know. Yeah. And what happens is over time, hopefully you screw up less, but you never stop screwing up. Sure. And and but what you do do is you get very ⁓ I just said doo doo. ⁓ you get very good at hiding the screw up. Yeah. And they're like, Hey, did you just ⁓ did you just knock the Knock the wheels in the middle of that? No, I was throwing a little emotion in there. Did you not like that? I don't have to do that. I don't have to do that. No, totally. I made an executive decision there. Maybe that was the right Okay, yeah, absolutely. You know, ⁓ but you you you basically get better at bullshitting is what it comes down to. You do. And my go to when I was a focus puller was like the thing about being a focus puller, when you screw it up like because there's monitors, everybody knows. Right. And after the thing Eric, was that out of focus? It's like, ⁓ could i I think there's some people in Crafty who didn't hear you. They didn't hear you, yeah, in the production office. But like, you know, hey, the actor was thinking an out of focus thought or what's in focus is as important as what's out of focus. ⁓ did you want him in focus as well? Okay. We can do that. That's not a problem. Yeah. You know, you really gotta call out the elephant in the room. Yeah. And ⁓ you know, like an actor can sit there and like fumble a take for like Five minutes. And it's cute. It's so funny, right? It's like, ⁓ that's great. Yeah. ⁓ you burped in the middle of the scene. ⁓ that yeah, we'll go again, no problem. Yeah. Right? But you chop a little head on a stand up or you buzz a nose or an eye, then it's like World War Three breaks. Well and that that's the irony, right? Is the actor only needs to nail it once because we're expected to nail it every single time. Every single time. And ⁓ and it's always amazing to me where people are like, I don't understand. You've only done this steady camp shot twenty two times. Why was t take twenty three bad? And it's just like I think it's actually It's in the question. If you back up a little bit, you'll understand what's in there. ⁓ yeah, so it's ⁓ that's interesting. Now what do you do when you show up on a set and you're the B you're the B operator? You've got a dolly grip who's usually someone maybe maybe learning, but maybe the B dolly grip, but but usually not a person who's an A dolly grip 'cause they would have moved on generally. Right. And how do you what do you do to judge how good they are, what they know, what you can count on them for? 'Cause that's a little bit of a dance, right? It is. And I had the unfortunate like I've had great I've had great dolly grips with me on B camera that were so good that they get transferred over to A camera. That's why I say they're usually not on the B. Yes. When they're that good, they go to A. Yeah, oftentimes it's a day player or someone who's sort of transitioning, whatever. So like we did this shot in a gym where the horizon line was these ⁓ high windows, right? So as it's like a Forty foot dolly move, bringing some, you know, characters into the gym. And the DP is looking at the top of my frame relative to the bottom of the window. So it's easy to see when it's doing that. When it's going to level or something, yeah. And I mean, and I can feel it. I'm getting motion sick because on the dolly, like I can feel the track like rur. Basically because the track hasn't been put down level. Okay, gotcha. So So what'd you do? So the the The Dolly Grip hi the first thing out of his mouth when I met him was, ⁓ it's so good to meet you. Yeah, I do a lot of really cool shows and like, you know, I really like laying a lot of track and doing these really cool moves and like I really hope I get a chance to bought. Okay, well, this shot is just A, B, and C. Da da da. So, ⁓ we do take one. D P says, that was terrible. Eric, you gotta keep that horizon line ⁓ even. And I'm thinking like All right, so we do I said, Hey, let's let's rehearse one more time. So we go through it and I'm like trying to compensate, like that's not right. I shouldn't have to compensate. So I pull the dolly grip aside and I said, Look at see how your track is like doing this and doing that. And you know, he wasn't getting a ton of support from the rest of the dolly the the grip department. And that was part of the problem, like the A Camera Dolly Grip was off doing his thing and the key grip was like not this is not my guy in the first place. So I said, You like get some help, get some wedges, and let's try to like, because this is not gonna work. Yeah. And then of course, like at lunch, ⁓ the key grip says, Hey, what do you think of so and so? And I said, Well, you know, he definitely has his challenges, but who doesn't? He says, Yeah, you got any else you anybody else you want to bring in? I'm gonna cut him loose. Mm. And I said, nah, not really. Like I now I don't want my guy to come in and be right. It's it's a tough situation. It's a tough situation. Yeah. And you hope that if they're gonna get fired, it's after rap and preferably on a Friday, but it was during lunch and in the middle of the week. So after lunch, the Dolly Grip says, Hey Eric, yeah, ⁓ I just got got canned, so today's gonna be my last day. Was there something going wrong with like You know, our relationship. And I said, you know, there's a lot of moving parts in setting up a shot. Yeah. And ⁓ yeah, it was just, you know, they were going for something different. Like I didn't want to tell them you were a crappy dollar grip because you were had a lot of talk and little experience. Which is weird because it's kind of what he needs to hear, but is that part of you that's like, I don't think this is my job. It's not my job. Yeah. It's the it's ⁓ it's the key grip's job. It's a really tough place to be. Yeah. So I said, you know, obviously there were shots that we didn't get. Because, you know, we were in a time crunch and it took too long to set the track and they don't want to wait for it and blah. Said, no, I get it. I'm just bummed out that I really couldn't show you you know, what I'm really capable of. So, you know, like Well that it's it it's an interesting after you told that story, it's an interesting thing to say 'cause it's just like you should be capable of doing very simple shots well. Yeah. And and and then and then doing complicated shots well if you if you want to you know. Yeah. ⁓ 'cause you gotta You gotta do it all. And at the end of the day, yeah, I mean I always say this is is I'd rather them be happy and me be unhappy than me be unhappy and ⁓ me be happy and them be unhappy because at the end of the day you're doing their work. So of course it comes it comes out after you. Yeah. and how about when you're a director and you're working with operators? So I've t as of now, I've done four really good shorts that I'm proud of that They've all won awards. They people always comment on how, you know, ⁓ the cinematography is so good. Like what's your background? ⁓ okay, well then that makes sense. ⁓ and now I, you know, have recently just done this feature. So most of the camera people know, you know, I have a camera background. and so, you know, we can always approach every shot with a little more of like ⁓ how they're used to, you know. To to shooting a scene and shooting and composing and things that. And a lot of times on shorts, like you have assistants who want to be operators. So I have more experience as an assistant, as an operator, and now I'm the director. So ⁓ a lot of times I'll, you know, have as much patience and grace as I can because they're either low budget or freebie. And, you know, when people are coming out and they're they're doing things at that level and you're trying to get work that's at a higher level, like I want a state of cam operator who's gonna be like, ⁓ we did that cool shot. It was tough and we really did it. Yeah. And the reason it worked is because, you know, I'm trying to keep things in mind, like what what's their skill level? And what's gonna make me look good and also make them look good. Trying to push them but not asking for something they can't deliver. Right. Because if they're not getting paid or they're getting paid in a subway sandwich and they don't end up with stuff for their reel, then it's a waste of their time. Yeah. so you know, the communicating with operators and like if I see something that that's okay, but this would be way better. Like I just did this thing a couple weeks ago and it was started off very pedestrian as far as these four guys at a table. And like this is boring. Like the dialogue is interesting and the acting is also good. This is something you were directing. Yes. Yeah. But like, you know, this is a standard, you know, over over. Like we don't like let's do something. So and it was a matter of like drop the camera. Okay, lower. Okay, lower still. Like let's feel the underside of that table. And that's like very much a Patrick Russo thing that from Snowfall, like I'm gonna do that when I have a chance. And it really changed the dynamic of the perspective of the shop and the operator was like, ⁓ that's so cool. I'm so glad you set that up. ⁓ even like let's cover the scene on an eleven to one all the way in from forty feet away with some f a lot of foreground elements so that you get a voyeuristic type of thing. So those are the things like having a camera background, when people look at it like I don't know what makes your shot so cool, but like I really liked watching your movie because I really felt like da da da. It's like there's a difference between a close-up on a fifty millimeter and a close up on a two hundred and fifty millimeter. And ⁓ most of the public has no clue why it's different, but you know, we know why it's different. Well, and they may have no idea why it's different, but it evokes a feeling or an emotion. It's part of telling of the story, right? So when you have that vocabulary. Yeah. And is there a lot is there a lot of that stuff that that that snuck into you while you were assisting that you didn't realize and now you look back and you're like, ⁓ I didn't even realize I knew that. ⁓ for sure. Yeah. Like, you know, d d directors who who have know the terminology and sometimes as an assistant you're like, you know what? I don't give a shit. Just put the lens on. Let's just shoot it so we can all go home and play Pokemon or whatever. But ⁓ yeah, realizing you know, ⁓ when you have actors who are s you know separated by geography and wanting to keep the cameras also separated, ⁓ like those are the things that I really like when I have an opportunity to opportunity to direct something and I look at the set and I look at our camera package I look at the lighting package and I think about what can really make this, you know, look visually a little different. Yeah. like that's when I think like assuming the actors know what they're doing, right? Like they can kind of be a little little bit on autopilot and I can shift into like what are the visual elements that will make the audience, you know, feel something that yeah supports the the narrative. Yeah. So you take all that with you. Yeah. What do you think the difference between a good camera operator and a great camera operator is? The difference between a good camera operator and a great camera operator, a great camera operator knows who to collaborate with on the set, and there's so many voices coming at you. A great camera operator will listen and can filter out what's not gonna support Like you gotta know the difference between people who really know what they're doing and people who are sort of posturing and how you can use all those things to make your shot, you know, ⁓ whether it's A camera, B camera, or C camera, ⁓ as great as it can be, right? Like you really gotta know the most efficient way to navigate being on set. Oftentimes the DP is at the D I T and you know A great camera operator can really set the tone for the noise level, the you know, the amount of like just crap that comes flying in at the last minute, right? Like you really gotta know if the DP is lit and my frame is great, okay, now it's everyone else. Like you gotta know when everyone's turn is as well as yours. Because it's it's not always your turn to be like, all right, everybody. Clear the set. I gotta set this up with the second team, and I gotta, you know, make sure my set dresser puts the ⁓ the vase in the foreground. Like, you gotta know when it's your turn. And operator, assistant, set dresser, craft service, like everybody has a turn. And one of the great things about having a fully staffed show is like when visitors come to set, like a lot of the commentary is like, that's cool, but like Why are there so many people standing around? Like so many people are standing around because when it's someone else's turn and you back up, they come in and they do their deal and they get out. It's like the pit crew. Exactly. Although nowadays I I don't know. I mean it's just reality is like I'm I'm going I think we should go with a twenty two millimeter right here and they're like already lighting the set and you know, they're painting in the background. It's like there's forty five people and they're doing It's a free for all. Yeah, because well just because nobody's given any time anymore, which is frustrating. Yeah. But I know what you mean. Yeah. ⁓ there have been operators I've worked with over the years who are so good at at the technical side of things. ⁓ Barnaby Shapiro is a fantastic steady cam operator and who also now shoots a little bit. ⁓ his D P, John Aronson, has gone on to direct a handful of episodes and when that happens, Barnaby bumps up and shoots. And he always had the ability to like ⁓ Forget what the first AD, you know, what the tone they're setting, because the tone we need to set to make sure that camera grip, electric props, wardrobe, all these departments get to do their deal. Like, I feel like if it doesn't start at the camera, like it's not gonna happen anywhere else. I mean, you can have a first AD who's like all they're good at is really yelling a lot. Then they're right. And then sometimes you have ⁓ ⁓ I worked with a cameraman, ⁓ David Tattersall, super soft spoken. And like everyone else, their level because you want to hear what he's saying, because he's a talented person and very smart. And if everyone is just yammering away, you can't hear it. So like being able to and this is, you know, doesn't matter what classification you're in, but being able to read the room and you know, sometimes it's okay to play flip the water bottle and see if it lands right side up and Sometimes like, you know, you gotta see what everyone else is doing, right? To know when it's okay and when it's not okay. Yeah. And and actually the weird thing is especially being on A camera, but B camera sometimes too, and i I think people take terms is i I try to tell people this is like sometimes you're the cruise director, you know? Because people are looking to you and it's like if things are just going haywire and you just sorta crack a joke or make some stupid like I I I I'm good with dad jokes and stuff like that. Some like just really groaner. It it can kinda break that moment. For sure. And the other thing I think it does is it people will go, ⁓ well, you know, he seems like he's not that concerned. Maybe this isn't as bad as maybe we're maybe we're okay, you know. And sometimes it's complete BS because you're screwed, but you're just like, We gotta bring everybody back up again, you know? Yeah. Or or you know, when you're in the fourteenth hour sadly or or whatever, sometimes you gotta be the one who goes like, Hey, come on, let's go get this or whatever and it's it's tough. And ⁓ Yeah, it's it's a weird job, but it's interesting to me that when you talked about great versus good camera operators, nothing had to do with operating. Yeah, I mean that's because I assume like you know how to frame a shot, you know how to do a stand up, you know how to do the technical ends of things. But there's so much that happens before that frame is perfectly set. There's no question. Right? I tell people they're like what You know, I'm going to college, should I go to sh film school? I'm like, no, get a psychology degree. ⁓ for sure. Film school you can learn that stuff online. Right. But the but you want to learn how to be able to look at someone and immediately go, okay, I know what type of person you are, I know how to talk to you, I know to get you you to do what I need quickly and not let you think that I'm getting you to do what I need to do. For sure. It's all that weird stuff. Yeah. What about working with the first A D? Do you ⁓ how do you how do you work with the first AD as a B camera operator? Like what's your interaction? ⁓ a lot of times the first A D Feels like the B camera is there to help them make their day, right? Like their A camera's gonna do a medium and B camera's gonna do a close up, and that just means we don't have to do another take, right? ⁓ so I don't feel like I have a ton of interaction unless it's something background related, right? Like ⁓ tell your team to make sure we have, you know, background who's paying attention, things like that. Sometimes if you have a first AD who's like a screen. Dreamer and ⁓ is is not really helping with the whole vibe of the set. And if I feel like the A camera is setting the shot, dealing with all these different elements, like if I feel like there needs to be a conversation from camera operators, oftentimes like I'm totally happy to go to the first AD and you know, try to navigate like it's really difficult for us to set shots when You're standing in front of the lens and you're screaming at everybody, right? Like I don't know why ADs do that, but like ⁓ like an AD who will come in and says, So guys, how's it going? How we how we doing in here? Yeah. Like, where have you been for twenty minutes? Because we've been trying to light and you have a breakfast burrito in your hand. ⁓ but that goes back to the psychology thing, right? Like sometimes, you know, they're just clueless and they don't know like who they should really get on their side to make the set run as smoothly as possible. Yeah. I mean well the good ADs that I work with know that that that the more they're collaborating with everybody, the easier their jobs are. And I there are those ADs who who are screamers and whatever. There's ⁓ there was an A D that I worked with on a show in a place. That's what I'll say right now. ⁓ very in this in this business in my career. ⁓ who had a tendency to stand in doorways. Yeah. And anybody who's ever been on a set knows you do not stand in by the way, anybody who's trying to get in the b film industry, do not stand in doorways. Do you know why? 'Cause people have to come and go through doorways. That's what doorways do. They're like they're entrances and exits. So he would stand in a doorway and I'd go, Get out of the doorway and f and and at one point he came up to me. ⁓ I at one point I I remember we were in this teeny apartment and I said, Get out of the doorway like I I was just You know, 'cause we're in a teeny apartment and like, you know, every time I try to lean down to look over the look in the camera, like someone else is going, I gotta get by you, so I gotta stand up and you know, there's like rats running around and just whatever. I mean, it's just ⁓ everything. And it was like, get out of the doorway and so ⁓ sorry. And he g and he ⁓ goes and he stands and now I've said he's a he. ⁓ or she, ⁓ goes and stands in another doorway and I happen to catch it with my eye and I said, Get out of the other doorway and if you can't be in this room, get out of the room. Yeah. And and ⁓ and I I was just really, you know And at lunch this person came up and said, You know, I I really think you were rude to me in there and I I was. I was absolutely rude to you in there. And I said, And I apologize for being rude because nobody ever likes to be rude. I But first of all, I was at my wit's end because I'm doing everything I can to push ahead and and make your day, by the way. And you're doing what you always do, which is standing in doorways. He's Well, I have things to do and it's like, but not from the doorway. Right. And I said, You look, ⁓ there's nothing personal in it. I'm sorry about it, but you have to learn that you can't be standing and impeding people's progress and you have to be more aware of what's going on around you. And and thankfully he took it I probably didn't even deliver it that nicely, but he took it to heart as something that was was something that he needed to learn. Right, right. Or she. they. but it was it you know and and afterwards it's like I a you know I I actually felt badly 'cause I don't wanna like speak ⁓ rudely to anybody. Sure. But at a certain point You know, especially when when the A D is saying, We gotta go, we gotta go, we g and you're going, Well, we can't go because of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just get a little to the end of your rope. And it's like, you know, there is a little bit of like, look, either help me push the train faster, stand on the side, or lay down on the tracks and it's gonna run over you. But one of those three things is happening, right? And hopefully it's the first. If not, it'd be the second. But if it's the third, you know, there's only so much we can do. It's rough. So ⁓ You know, it's a it's a it's a tough thing. But yeah, and and a lot of times, you know, they'll look at you as the operator and go, Why why are we not ready? And it's just like, Well, you know, 'cause of this and 'cause of that. You know, a camera's ready, but there's all these other things you gotta do. Yeah, yeah. Or y y like you'll be setting the the D P has, you know, s set the last light and you're trying to get one clean look at the stand ins or you know, first team comes to the set And they've been in hair and makeup for whatever. And there's a thing called last looks, right? Which is, okay, now hair, makeup, costumes come in. At the last minute. Right. Actors by the way, last looks, actors are in the room generally. Right. They're in front of the camera. So you're you're basically ready to go. Basically ready to go. And you know, it's like it can be really aggravating when it's not time for that and they are standing on the mark and then here comes someone in front of the camera to do their last look. And like you really hate to be the person to say, so and so, step aside. ⁓ I'm just trying to do my job. I know, but it's not your turn yet, right? Yeah. And unfortunately probably someone has told them it's their turn. That's that's the bigger problem. It's like okay, we need we both have things we have to do that are absolutely important. Yeah. But we can't do yours without mine and mine without yours. So, you know, let's move forward. And that's, you know, a lot of times that's a a really good thing for the first day for you to pull the first A D aside and say, This is an ongoing problem. Like they can do last looks, but I gotta get a look at ⁓ so that the D P can see them on the monitor. Yeah. And sometimes you have ADs who are really good at like telling ⁓ to hold off and then sometimes they're not. Sometimes they're not. But it but it's a good it's a good point is I'll usually pull ⁓ aside and j go Look, we have a situation that's not working. This is what keeps on happening. And right and and what I'll always do is I'll always go, and it's costing us time. Sure. Those are those are very good words to say to an A D. It's costing us time. And I think it would be more efficient if and generally nine times out of ten if they're aware though, ⁓ you know what? I'll be more on top of this. I apologize. They're getting told by so and so I will I will make sure. And and and even if that's the case, if they will say that and it doesn't happen, I'll just go up and I won't r you know, but I'll go Hey, so it's not happening. How do we make it happen? What can I do to help you make this happen? Because it's because they've also got seven hundred things to you know, to think about where we've only got four hundred things or whatever. Right. ⁓ so it goes it goes all over the place. I want to ask you ⁓ a question about ⁓ I know you're a religious person. Mm-hmm. How do you work in this industry as someone who who who is a religious person? Yeah. How in the world can you call yourself a practicing Methodist and shoot a f ⁓ scene in a strip club. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. So there's a couple of things that have sort of kept my sanity because I've s known people who are like married, divorced, alcoholics, overdose, blah blah, you name it, right? It takes its toll on you. It takes its toll. There's no way you can be gone from home if you're single or in a relationship for twelve to fourteen or fifteen hours ⁓ and not have it take a toll on you. So ⁓ thankfully like my wife and I have been married almost 30 years now and she has like from we went to school together and I was a PA and I was making no money, which like this year I'm making no money because there's a strike. But ⁓ she's always been so supportive and w early on when our kids were small and I was working, you know, a television series, right? Like She stayed home with the kids. I never missed a birthday. I never missed a Halloween because those are the things with little kids that they remember and are super important, right? So, you know, kind of getting back to your question, like I don't I don't look at someone's spirituality as completely separate from ⁓ how they interact with people in a work environment, right? Like you may not, you may not. feel comfortable. Like there's a lot of sarcastic people on movie sets, right? Like we're all jaded. Like. Right? Like, you mean to tell me someone who was a hundred years old gave birth to, I don't know, 50 children, and then their wife was 200 years old? Like, all right, like making films, we take things out of context all the time to tell a story. Right? So if I feel like I can relate to a person, regardless of if they're Catholic, if they're Jewish, if they're whatever. and somehow our relationship, you know, gets a little stronger, right? Person to person. ⁓ and they'll say, ⁓ do you ⁓ are you a ⁓ what are you Christian or you're Buddhist? What's what's going on with you? Like, yeah, you know what? I'm happy to say that, you know, I've taught Sunday school for over twenty years. ⁓ I, you know, I've been going to the same church for twenty years and feeling like what I'm doing right now is not as important as the big picture. And the big picture is like whether you believe there's one God or many gods, like I don't think our job as humans on this planet are just to be here, suck up oxygen and eat donuts. Right? Buy stuff. And buy stuff, yeah. I I I feel like like there is a creator because everything works so perfectly, right? You get up, you go outside, you see a beautiful sunrise, you take a deep breath, and you feel better. That's not by accident, right? And I don't think that a creator would create this for us to not support each other to enjoy what is on the planet. ⁓ and part of what's on the planet is entertainment and it's on the television, it's in a movie theater, it's on your phone. so that's a a little bit of a a ⁓ like I don't really get into specifics of what I believe as a Methodist. I'm happy to, but I feel like that's just the that's just the category I fall into, right? Like I may be a six foot three black man, but that's not all I am, right? It doesn't mean that I play basketball. It doesn't mean that ⁓ you know, that I'm good at dancing. It doesn't mean all these things that you might stereotypically think, right? It's like there's a bigger picture to everything, including what you are as a religious or spiritual person, what you are as a filmmaker and a storyteller. And you really only get to that point when you're doing like we are and just having a conversation. Does that answer your question? That totally no, that totally I mean there wasn't a right answer to that, you know. ⁓ I just was wondering because you don't you don't I would imagine that actually I probably meet more people who are religious than I than I recognize. But they're not a I you don't always get get close to people the way that I've gotten close to you over the years and realize it. So and and so it's just I I don't know why, but for some reason finding people who are devoutly religious if that's the right word in this industry i is more sort of makes me go, hm, as opposed to like, you know, I don't know. Baskin Robbins. Yeah. Well well the thing about it is like when you survive being in this business, and I guess it maybe it's true for any industry, but when you get to a certain point and you have a certain demeanor about yourself ⁓ that people can appreciate, like to be around, like to work work with, and then they find out, you know, ⁓ like, ⁓ and you go to church, you know, three or four Sundays a month. Yeah. Right? It's like that also kind of paints the picture of who you are. Like like I don't I don't necessarily like I cannot name every book of the Bible, right? ⁓ you know, I'm I'm not that well read. But like you gotta have a strong support system. And people you meet that come and go on television and movie sets are not always the strongest support system. But over time, if you develop enough relationships and like, you know, you can talk to someone at lunch and like You know, they may be going through things with their kids or their family or whatever. And you know, you might have an opportunity to fall back on some of the spiritual side of things, right? Like maybe they just need you to listen to them, right? You're not don't need to be their therapist, but when you're in the middle of trying to hurry up and make the day and everyone's p rush, rush, rush, then Who cares what your feelings are and what's going on with you at home and how your kids, you know, ⁓ just OD'd and and you can't be there because right? Someone will steal your job. Yeah. ⁓ like that's when, you know, you really need an opportunity to connect with someone and you know, having some kind of grounding that, you know, no matter what, this is who I am and where I'm from. I think. Well, I'll tell you, I it doesn't actually I I'm I'm saying this right after this and ⁓ it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with this, but the the the thing that I remember most about snowfall was that Jess who was the first A C was was breastfeeding at the time. And I didn't really know that that was the case when I first like the moment I came in, I found it out pretty quickly. Yeah. But but she would have to leave set like what, three, four times a day to go pump or whatever. Right. And you and Megan and and and who was who was my second A C on that it's terrible. Yes. I c ⁓ I can't I can see his face but I can't remember his name. I should find out. ⁓ anyway. ⁓ But you and Meg and and everybody on on the camera crew just sort of like swooshed in and said, you know, and you'd you'd come help set the A camera shot and whatever. And I remember I was sort of like, What's going on? You're ⁓ yeah, she's ⁓ she's breastfeeding. I'm like, ⁓ okay. But it was great. It was just it just obviously that was that was who you are and and who everybody on the camera team was was like, no. This is just something that has to happen and we just have to do something a little differently, but we're all gonna be professional and get it done and it was just like I mean most I would say that most directors who came in probably didn't even know it was happening. Didn't even notice. ⁓ it was and and that's a testament to all of you, ⁓ you know, ⁓ just on a personality level, which I was I was just sort of floored by. ⁓ which maybe I shouldn't be floored by, but but it was it was a wonderful thing to see because it just To me that sorta goes, these are people who have their priorities in the right place. For sure. They're still proud of the work and they're still they still wanna do everything really well, but they're like, there's something more important. Yeah. And it used to be it was not uncommon for like once you started a show, like you're not gonna you can't take any days off, you can't do this, you can't write and a lot of people's ⁓ family lives suffered for that. Yeah. and, you know, I was on a show and I My father was very ill at the time and I told the D P starting it, like, there's a very good chance that I'm gonna get a call and I'm just gonna leave. Yeah, like and here's who you call what so and that was totally fine. Like w come back when you're ready, da da da. But you know, like when my kids were small and like I worked my mentor as a focus puller was a guy named Randy Chinofsky. I know Randy Shinofsky. Love him or hate him, he and I got along fantastic. Randy Chinofsky's the guy who does that weird thing where he finds out where movies were made and then he goes and takes the exact same picture scene. Yeah. So I was on a show with him when my kids were born and were super young, and that was like a thing I established. Like if Halloween was on a weekday, I would either take the day off or leave early and have someone come in and I would just pay them out of my pocket. Yep. or if it was a birthday or something like that. Right? Like I think it's always okay to remind everybody, like, this is our job, but this is my life. Yep. Right? And if I don't have this, then I'm not gonna be able to do this. Yeah, the thing I'd say to anybody who's who's starting out in this business who's has a family, is thinking of having a family or whatever, and I think you'd probably agree is I will always remember my kids' birthday parties. I get ⁓ a little confused at this point, but I'll remember ⁓ generally. Right. I could not tell you what we shot that week on whatever show it was. Sure. Because it's not important. Right. And and in the end, the bigger thing, like you said, is my kids know that I was at their birthday parties and they don't th you know, they they don't care, you know, like that I did a big wonder that day. You know. That's a that's that's pointless to them. Yep. Well this has been really great. There's so much good stuff here. ⁓ I'm gonna leave you with the question that I leave everybody with, ⁓ which is someone getting in the business Someone moving up to camera operator. ⁓ Eric Dyson beginning versus Eric Dyson now, maybe something you wish you had known. What what are your what what's your guidance for success? Well, the industry has changed so much in the last 30 years and will continue to change and evolve and get better or worse. ⁓ I would say, like, I wish someone would have told me when I was you know, a humble film loader, ⁓ like whatever it is you think your trajectory should be, don't ever wait for someone to like don't don't you're not standing in line getting to the front to place your order, right? You you want opportunities, start creating them like right now. If you want to shoot, whether it's your iPhone or you have a you know ⁓ an old I don't know, camera from a rental house that they're not using. Whatever you w whatever you wanna do, like st start figuring out right now what it's gonna take to start building your reel and your resume. ⁓ and don't wait for anyone to give you a chance because that's not how this industry works. It's unfair. ⁓ people are who are the h highest paid on the set are sometimes the most ignorant of what it takes to even Do their job. So when you're a technician and you want to keep pursuing that, like you want to be a focus puller, then you tell the first AC, let me do the rehearsal, right? Let me da-da-da-da. Try to try to be your own ⁓ you know, you you be the voice for moving yourself forward because if you wait, like I have zero regrets for my career. and I have done a lot of great shows and I've done a lot of You know, like whatever, forget about ⁓ kind of shows. But I definitely wish I would have been more proactive with like when I move up and you know, like I think the best operators and DPs are the ones who who have done the other categories for some amount of time because then you know what you're asking other people. but that's not necessarily doesn't always have to be the case. You could be a loader, you want to shoot. You can get yourself a DSLR and you can make pretty pictures. So what are you waiting for? I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.