Dave C: On today's episode we'll talk about tinkering with Larry McConkie, early days on Home Built Stabilizers dot com, Saturday Night Live, Blue Bloods, and of course, reaching out to Garrett Brown out of the blue as a fifteen year old kid. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website, theop.io, is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Lock it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Victor30 Echo Tech 2. Hey Margaret, you marked. Camera set. Hello and welcome back to the OP Podcast, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I'm Dave Kamides, your host, and ⁓ my guest is coming to me today from ⁓ Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. study camera, conventional camera operator as well, Tori Wills. A couple of Tory's Credits, but not all. ⁓ not suitable for work. American sports story. Law and order, just for anybody listening, that's the mothership reboot, and people in New York will understand what that means. SNL Extrapolations, the Marvelous Mrs. Mazel. Tori, thanks for ⁓ thanks for coming on the podcast. Hi, yeah. Thank you, Dave. It is an honor. I've been, you know, listening to this since ⁓ episode one and and truly feel ⁓ privileged to be able to finally be a part of it and ⁓ and and kind of like ⁓ share my story as well. Wait, wait, so you've been listening to this episode one and you're not bored yet? You're you're the person? I'm I'm that person. I'm I am the reason why your episodes get no, I I w I I love that. And ⁓ hopefully you're the reason why we're apparently ⁓ the number one film podcast in the Maldives. So I don't know if you're okay there, but I appreciate it. So t what's your what's your story? How'd you get to this point? So I've I've kind of had a bit of an interesting arc to my career. It actually it starts much younger than I feel like most people start, although I've I've heard a few of the people who started as children as well. ⁓ so I grew up ⁓ my dad was a camera operator and editor for a show called ⁓ evening magazine or PM magazine, depending on what market you were in. It was a a Westinghouse owned and operated TV station show. Kind of a little bit of a mix between a twenty twenty and an entertainment tonight that did some soft news, some entertainment news, also some hard news. And my dad was there from 1976 to 1993 and actually won two Emmys, one for his work shooting, one for his work editing, ⁓ for his time there. Yeah, so I grew up adjacent to the industry, certainly not in the exact field that I ended up in, but you know, certainly cameras were a thing, composition was a thing. Like every time ⁓ you know in my house there would always be cameras, always this you film cameras, video cameras, we all this kind of stuff. And for years of my childhood, my mom continually loves to remind me, there was a live mobile uplink truck parked outside of our house, because my dad would drive it home from work. ⁓ no way. ⁓ did you what did you understand what that was or was it just No, I had no idea. It was just the big truck. I I mean actually it was funny. My mom always shares the story that ⁓ at at school they were like, Okay, so what does your mom do? And what does your dad do? It's like, My dad drives a truck. And that was the thing I was really excited about. My dad drives a truck. I love it. Yeah. Because you know, when you're like five, that's what you know is your dad drives a big truck and it's outside your house. You said he started in the seventies. So did he start with film? So he started working in news, ⁓ in film. So he was actually the chief of photography for ⁓ a news station shooting and processing his own black and white 16mm film back when that was the thing for news. And then eventually he went to a TV station in Buffalo, New York, where they were just getting into ENG. And because he was the chief of photography, he got the first TK seventy-six RCA cameras and was doing the first ENG. So then when this show, this brand new show out of Philadelphia Evening magazine was starting up and they were looking for cameramen, and cameramen, of course, was the term at the time. ⁓ a little less inclusive in the 70s. ⁓ they were looking for camera people who had experience with electronic news gathering, ENG video. Which was not many, right? No. No, and it was certainly not good ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure, sure. So my dad got recruited and ended up back in Philadelphia. yeah, yeah, was kind of worked out his career there and ⁓ especially a lot of the people who he started with went on to form Banyan, the television, you know, production company Banyan that did all the like TLC shows in the nineties. Like that was evening magazine employees. ⁓ cool. So yeah, so I grew up adjacent to the industry. However, ⁓ I will note that my dad expressly forbade me from ever going into television because of how rotten of an industry it is. And That worked out really well for him. He should have told you you have to go into TV. I will not do anything. Exactly, exactly, exactly. If you do not become a camera person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ so I grew up with cameras around the house and I actually I I had no real interest. I I wasn't someone who from you know, I was a storyteller from what time I was a child. No, I was a nerd. I was a geek. I wanted to take things apart. I my favorite toy as a kid was a power screwdriver, and I would like Take the doors off the hinges as a six-year-old in the house. I mean, that was me. I was 100% a tinkerer, somebody who wanted to work with their hands, and I loved computers. But that then led to my sister, when she was going away to college, my older sister, got an iMac, and it was the first iMac that had iMovie on it. And I was fascinated because I love computers and I love technology. So I was like, I need to learn this new program, iMovie. This is so cool. I can make a movie on a computer. And at the same time, I was going into middle school. And my middle school, lo and behold, had a video program. I don't know how, I don't know why, where they got the resources. Well, what year is this? I mean, what year is This would have been 2000, 2001 in that time period. ⁓ and so they had this morning announcements program that every week would put a video out that's here's what's activities are going on next week, all that stuff. It as a middle schooler, that's fantastic. And As I got there, they were like, Well, we've bought this new thing. It's an iMac and it has iMovie on it. And I went, I know that. I know and I became their editor. And then I was teaching other kids iMovie. And then they were like, Well, do you know cameras? Like, I sure I know cameras, whatever. You you fake it till you make it, 100%. So I started shooting things and lo and behold, discovered a whole bunch of people who were really interested in making films. I'm like, well. Cool, I can make films then too, sure. Yeah. I know that I know the tech side. I'm you know, maybe maybe not coming from it from a storytelling perspective, but coming from a a ⁓ tech perspective. Yeah. ⁓ which then led to in high school, ⁓ several of my friends who came from that same program were making films. So, like every year, every summer, we'd do a short film, I would shoot it, I'd edit it, I'd do all the lighting. ⁓ and that then led me to a very interesting thing, which is when you are a teenager and you're making films. You have grand aspirations, I think as we all do as teenagers. And yet you have zero resources. So suddenly I'm a geeky, tinkering kind of person, and I'm discovering, ⁓ there's all these things that people do with cameras, like mount them on things like cranes and dollies and all of this life and world. And I was like, I want all of that, but I have no money. So I found online this community called homebuiltstabilizers.com. And I'm sure ⁓ several people's eyes just lit up in the audience. And to all of you, I'm so sorry you exper it's the same the same experience I did. ⁓ it was this community of people who were building camera dollies and cranes and especially steady cams by themselves. And this is started back in the nineties before like machining was easy, before all this stuff, like people building stuff out of plumbing parts, people building stuff out of wood. I mean, yeah. And I discovered this and just immediately went, coolest thing I've ever seen. Done. That's my entire personality now. Congratulations. Great. Now now before before this, did you have any idea what a steady cam was? No, none. I actually I I went to that website to look for building a camera crane because I thought camera crane was what I really wanted. I wanted a crane. I wanted a thing that went twenty feet up in the air. You could put a camera on it. And I found that and I'm like, this steady cam thing, ⁓ whatever, that's not fair. And then I started digging into it and it was like, ⁓ this is challenging. And I'm also somebody who I love a challenge. And actually I think it's what's kept me in this for so long in in the film industry is that like I never quite felt like I fully got good at it. I always felt like whenever I got to a point where I was like, ⁓ I I'm starting to feel kind of good, I just get humbled hard. Well, that's that's the film industry in general, right? And it's that's still happening. ⁓ wait, I wanna I wanna interrupt you for a second, throw a name there just on the crazy off chance that there's a connection here. You you never ran into a guy named Bob Fisk on that forum or do you know a guy named Bob Fisk in upstate New York? It's entirely plausible I did, but you know, it's just the reason the reason that I ask is the entire reason that I am a study camera operator, although I mean, well, my history being who knows whether it would have happened anyway, is I did when and you've probably heard this story, I did when I was at NYU, I Went to upstate New York and did ⁓ was first I see on a movie called Craw Daddies, which is a horror movie. And like it was it was amazing. We worked 72 hours one day or something like that, you know, and it was raining and we were in the mud and eating sandwiches that were moldy and you know, that kind of thing. Living the dream. And this guy named Bob Fisk came out with a quote unquote steady cam, which I'd never heard of before. And it was made out of it was made out of like I remember the center post was a ⁓ was one of those paint ⁓ Paint poles that you like turn and extend and but ⁓ whatever. And I the main thing I remember was because I was the first AC, he's Here, you can pull focus with this. And I he hands me this thing and it's a return mechanism from a V CR. ⁓ my god. And that's that was connected into the mo the lens and he ran around. You know, I mean it would the the the best was made out of buckets and whatever, but I bet I'm gonna call him because I bet he was on that forum and it would be hilarious. And actually I I vaguely remember a study cam that had a paint hole as its centerpiece. And he was big into computers and he was geeky. So I bet I bet it's it anyway, but go, but go ahead. That's amazing. Like I can I I sort of am jealous that I never had this experience on the computer like you did. That's great. Yeah. No, no, I I felt very, very lucky. And I built my first study cam. And then I built another study cam because the first one didn't really work. And then I built another study cam because that one didn't really work. And I got more and more interested and I actually, when I was in high school, got a job at a machine shop as an apprentice machinist. ⁓ learning from an ex-Beeung machinist who was the one who did all of the landing gear for the Osprey VTOL helicopters. ⁓ and so he brought brought me in, and I his son was or his grandson was one of the the kind of apprentices in the shop. So he already had a teenager working in the shop. It's fine. And he was like, here's the ground rules. Number one, Everything you bring into me, you have to bring in a fully dimensioned technical drawing to my standards. And if it's not to my standards, I'm gonna tell you what's wrong with it and send you back home. And then when you bring me in something I'm happy enough with, then over your lunch break, you will clock out and you will get the manual machines. You don't get the CNC machines. You don't get to do this the way we do it now. You get to do it the way I did it in the 70s. And so great. Yeah. He taught me machining. And so I I learned as like a 15, 16 year old machining. ⁓ by the way, cut to teaching steady cam ⁓ to people and going, turn the vault off. Yes, precisely, precisely. You have to know what happens when this all breaks. That's great. ⁓ wow. I'm jealous. Yeah. So I built my first steady cam and I was super obsessed with it. Like this was my whole whole personality again at this point. And at the time I was like, God, I really wish I could try a real steady cam. That would be amazing. And my dad. And this is kind of one of those moments of happenstance. My dad was on the Emmy board in Philadelphia for a long time. And he had nominated Garrett for an Emmy at one point. So he knew of Garrett. He knew Garrett was in Philadelphia. So my dad goes, Have you tried looking up the guy who invented Steticam? He's in Philadelphia. So I send an email as a 15-year-old to Garrett Brown, the guy who invented Steady Cam, a man who has no business even like interacting with me. And he So graciously responded and said I would be shocked if you said anything else. That's fantastic. and his immediate response was, Okay, you're a teenager, you want to get into Steady Cam. Why don't you come out to the SOA workshop, the Steady Cam Operators Association workshop? And so as a 15-year-old, I was invited out as a guest for one day, and he made sure it was the day he was gonna give his lecture on the moving camera. ⁓ my god. For those who don't know, Garrett Brown delivers this like Multi hour lecture on the theory of the moving camera. Why do we move cameras? How do we tell stories? What does it mean? How much does parallax and storytelling and timing add to the cinema perspective? And again, I'm 15. So this breaks me. I am completely just like you know, it's it's like the veil of around the world has been lifted, and I suddenly see that I can manipulate people's emotions and like Tell stories and make people feel things and see things that I want them to see. And introducing me to like Garrett and Larry and all of these amazing people who, you know, have have done all this work and like introducing me to to Jake Hilroy, who is part of the SOA and and Jerry Hallway and all these people I got to know as a 15 year old. Wow. And I'm sure every single one of them was like excited about you being excited about it. Just took you right under their wing. I could totally see that. Yeah. And all the people who paid good money for it are probably who the hell is that kid? Why is he getting so much time with you? ⁓ a hundred percent. ⁓ That's so great. And so I went away to college, was super obsessed with study cam. ⁓ actually before I went away to college in my senior year of high school, I went and did a two day study cam workshop with Peter Abraham. ⁓ so the two day Peter Peter taught me, by the way. So amazing. I Peter is just the most giving, kind, respectful, and and but like he really knows his stuff and he also really understands teaching in a way that I have just taken to heart and been like, I I I want to emulate this man in any way I can. so I took a first workshop with him. and oddly enough, one of my fellow classmates was John Beatty, who is now The DP of Law and Order. Well, well, he did Law and Order Organized Crime and he's now on the CIA show. And so it's really funny because every once in a while we kind of get together and reminisce a little bit. And it's like, remember when we were 18 and we both did a steady cam workshop together? And, you know, I was 18, you were 23, and like I didn't have a driver's license yet. Yeah, yeah. That was that was wild. ⁓ now we're like, yo, it's funny. I've worked for him as a steady cam operator as he's a DP now. And it's like that's So cool. That's so cool. I like and yeah, I mean, mo people who are either are not study cam operators within the community or maybe just are like, you know, West Coast and don't know some of the people on the East Coast or like the people that you're mentioning are like just I mean, these are like these are people who live and breathe study cam and like give it, you know, and and are just such a part of the lore and whatever. So like you you you know, you could have stumbled into something else and it would have been totally different. But it's like you hit the jackpot, right? I mean, it's it's amazing. It's okay. I was so lucky and I think what everyone just saw was genuine enthusiasm. And they all went, ⁓ cool. Somebody really likes this? Okay, I'm gonna help them. And and that that generosity was not lost on me for sure. Did did you ever get one of the ones you built to the point where you could actually like fly it around a little bit, or did they never get to that point? ⁓ yeah, no, I shot I shot several films with the study cans I built. I even like went out and did like professional jobs with it. Cause I I brought so I ended up The arm and vest, which are, you know, the support apparatus, those I never got right. I never got a vest that fit my body. I never got an arm that carried weight without breaking. But the sled I nailed. I really I got yes, and like I got the bearings perfect. I designed all my own rod clamps and rod systems to the base. I did all my own power wiring. I soldered all the wiring. I did all of that and it worked so well. I actually flew that rig until I was twenty one. ⁓ and like But but it wasn't a bear it wasn't a gimbal like we know. How did you it was? I reverse engineered. Yeah, it was a full three axis, it had bearings on all the axes, it was fully centerable so you could adjust the XY centering. I cleaned out and reshaped my own bearings because I was using off the shelf bearings, which are greased instead of oiled. In case you can't tell, I'm a huge nerd. ⁓ and No, but the thing is the thing is I'm also a huge nerd, but I don't have anywhere the talent that you have for building things. I mean, my friend Matt and I built a quote unquote, and I'm gonna put quotes around the quote unquote study cam. ⁓ but it was you know, it was like completely useless and whatever. But ⁓ that's amaz do you still have that? No, sadly. I because as a as a twenty one year old, I was like, I don't need any of these patterns and like damn scrapped a bunch of it and sold pieces of it as part of Did you ever bring it to one of the one of the workshops to show them? ⁓ I brought parts of it and I certainly brought photos of it and and I remember like Peter Abraham going, That's really interesting. and and I still have all these photos of it. I may maybe I'll I'll I'll send you a couple of those. Please do. I would love to postp I'd love to see the photos of that. But that is ⁓ that's so great. That is so fantastic. So so you took the two day workshop. Took the two day workshop and then went away to college went to college in a tiny little Catholic college in Buffalo, New York, no one's ever heard of, because my aunt and uncle were both professors there. It was like backup of backup schools because ⁓ it turns out that when you apply with a really strong engineering background, a lot of colleges say, Look, we know you applied to art school, but have you considered engineering? And so I decided, you know what? Forget all that. I'm done. I'm just gonna go to a school, it's a tiny school, whatever, I'll get my bachelor's degree. I don't care. I know what's important is experience. I'm gonna have experience. And I was really lucky because when you go to a college for communications and digital media, and your graduating class is three people in that program, you get noticed when you show up with a camera package and a steady cam and ask to put it in the college's gear lockup. First of all, you get a job. ⁓ I ran that gear lockup all four years, including as a freshman, which was very funny. And the second thing is the lead professor of the department goes, I have a friend who's a cinematographer and he's looking for PAs, and I need someone responsible. And you seem responsible. So that I mean, it's funny. Everything is such a linear line. I feel so so cut kind of lucky to be able to package it this way. But it is, it's it's this linear path of I did this, which led to this, which led to this. So I end up As a PA for this DP in in Buffalo who shot a bunch of commercials. And we shot like AAA commercials and you know, dairy commercials and car commercials. Small stuff. Yeah. But very small crews. And so immediately I show up on set and I'm competent. You know, I've been shooting my own movies. I I know what I'm doing to an extent, obviously, only as much as an 18, 19-year-old can. And so my second day working with him, he pulls me aside. He says, You know too much. I don't feel good about you being a PA because I'm not paying you and that feels exploitative. So from here on out, you're a grip. Wow. And so I worked my way through college as a grip on commercials. And because it was Buffalo and it's this tiny little market, I also sometimes operated a camera. And I also sometimes was a boom operator and a sound recordist. And I also gaffed things. And I also so like You couldn't wear one hat because it was too small of a market. And so like when the DP got a commercial, he called his crew and his crew would come out and do it. And we would all just kind of go, ⁓ yeah, do you wanna do you wanna key this one? 'Cause I I don't I key the last one. Yeah, I key the last one and like yeah, the gear package this one is like smaller, so I don't really want to deal with that. But but but what a blessing because as you know The the more you know about everybody's job, the better operator you become because you just under well, first of all, you can protect yourself, but also you just understand what's involved. ⁓ that's amazing. Exactly. So so I worked my way through college and at the same time was like, I really want to be a steady cam operator. And that DP got me my first couple steady cam gigs with him and actually very notably, you know, his name is Chris Santucci. ⁓ I think I don't know where he is in the world right now. He moved out of Buffalo. He's yeah I think he's still shooting. ⁓ he introduced me to his AC Shannon Madden, that name will come in later. ⁓ and he also bought a Bartek YOS follow focus for me. ⁓ wow because ⁓ my gosh we didn't have one and I couldn't afford one. So he just bought one because I was like, well I want to do steady cam, but like it was in the era of like the 5D and the first large sensor cameras. So you wanna do steady cam. You have to have a way to pull focus. Well yep he was like I'll buy one. Sure, whatever. I'll just That's incredible. So again, tremendous luck. ⁓ and I think it was also just that I I showed him that it was worth it. That, like, okay, I'm gonna do this for you, and then I'm gonna go do steady cam for you. And I ⁓ my senior year of college, I cashed out all my student loans and I bought a steady camera, a big full size one, ⁓ a GPI Pro 1 sled, which was a beautiful sled. Beautiful sled. ⁓ it was a little broken, but that's okay. I knew how to fix things. This was a use slate. Used. ⁓ tremendously used. Yeah. This was this was ⁓ 2011. So like you know, a pro one in 2011 was a little questionable. and I bought a master series, Steady Cam Arm, ⁓ and that had corrosion on all of the bones, so it had to be wrapped in plastic film so it didn't get all over your hands. ⁓ my god. And I bought a model two vest from Ron Baldwin. That the foam inside was just powder. Yep. and it smelled like a Model Two vest. I was just gonna say it probably wasn't foam, it was probably just Ron's sweat from over the years that had getted like you know built up in there. Yeah, yeah. Just just horrible. Yeah. No, I could see this right now. And so I put together this rig and went, I'm a steady cam operator now. Right. And yeah, I kinda was. I I don't know. ⁓ and eventually after about a year. maybe six months of operating with it, I started having back issues ⁓ from that model two vest and I ⁓ sure yeah decided to take out a loan ⁓ and I bought a class and harness. ⁓ thankfully I was in Buffalo, which is two hour drive from Toronto. So I w drove up to Toronto, had them measure me, and the only thing I bought new out of the entire package was a Walter Classen back mountain harness. ⁓ then for anybody who doesn't isn't in the study cam geeky world, that's sort of a a ⁓ That was the first sort of different vest that came out. I think it was the first one with a back mount, right? Where so it was connected to the back. ⁓ and ⁓ I remember actually when I took my class, which was ninety-four, ⁓ myself and I think a couple other people were talking about, you know, how you have to well, you basically when you have a steady cam on ⁓ when it's when it's side mounted, ⁓ you kinda it changes your center of gravity. So you're you're always standing leaning backwards in some way ⁓ to do it. And I remember all of us going, well, like If it was connected on the back, wouldn't your center of gravity be at the center? And like people were people were like, Listen, you don't even know how to operate. Be quiet. Or that's good. How would you put it on the back? Shut up. We're like, Well, I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing. That's why I'm asking. But ⁓ yeah, but that was a huge, huge ⁓ change for everybody when that came out. I I tried a Walter Classen back mounted vest and I so wanted to use it and I just couldn't it it didn't it didn't feel right. It was in the people's bodies it makes sense. For some people's bodies it doesn't, yeah. Yeah. I couldn't do it and I was so bumped, but such is life, you know. Yeah. ⁓ that's that's so so yeah, 'cause back when I mean, it's a good example of that model two vest you talk about, 'cause back when I when I started, you know, you'd put it on and it's like, is it is it supposed to hurt? And they're like, Yeah, it hurts. Just deal with it. Strap it on, go. And and then then at some point, like towards the Walter class, and people were like, Maybe it doesn't have to hurt. Maybe maybe it can support you. Yeah. No, it's it's it's a huge kind of you know, shift in the industry. ⁓ Absolutely. And I felt very lucky that then I had that rig. And and I'd actually I'd been considering picking up a less expensive used lighter weight rig, but I was encouraged by a bunch of people online, mostly on the Steady Cam forum, to buy the heaviest, biggest rig I could. And they were just like, you never want to turn down a job because of the gear you had. True. And that was tremendously good advice because One month out of graduating from college, I get a phone call that, Hi, the Asylum is coming to Buffalo, New York to film a feature. And for those of you who know the asylum, a chill just went up your spine. ⁓ 'cause I am, you know, an easily exploitatable twenty two year old. And they wanted to do this film in Buffalo, shoot Buffalo for New York City, which again, interesting choice. ⁓ but they were gonna film it on the red one. And the red one was like the hot new camera of the time. You know it was a heavy pig of a camera and it recorded onto these big hard drives and it ran through batteries. It was terrible. It was terrible on everything. It took ninety seconds to boot up. It was atrocious. It was terrible. I was the only person within a five hour drive who had a steady cam that could carry more than thirty pounds. There you go. So they had to hire me. So that pays off. Wait, I want to back up for a second. What is the asylum? I don't know what the asylum is. Okay. So the asylum is the company that did Sharknado. The Asylum is the company that did all of the sci-fi channel. You know, those films. You had me at Sharknado. That's fine. Okay. Now I know. I always I kind I kind of joked that our film notably titled Battle Dogs because it was about militarized werewolves and a virus that turns people into werewolves. An original film. ⁓ very, very very original idea. ⁓ that film ⁓ was the one directly before Sharknado. So I always joked that ⁓ sh we walked so Sharknado could run, you know. There you go. And and we all appreciate that. Thank you very much. I was gonna say when you said the name of it, it's like, ⁓ yeah, I remember I think I remember not seeing that. But ⁓ okay, great. But so this is really your first feature film. It's my first feature and it had a real cast in it. you know, I am blanking on the names of right now, but like it had a real cast, it had real actors, it had a real director, real cinematographer coming out of LA, ⁓ real cameras, real assistants. And it was not a great experience, but a very important learning experience because Did did you just do Study Cam? I did B Camera Study Cam. Okay. Yeah. and at the end of the film actually the director took me aside. He had had a few drinks, it was a rap party and said You know, I just really wanna be honest with you. I tried to get you fired on day three. I really wanted to replace you because I just thought you were gonna be no good, but you've improved so much. I guess that's And it's and it's like follow that what a weird compliment. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for not firing me, I guess. Yeah, right, right. But You know, I was 22 and this was I had now done my first feature and it was going to be aired somewhere. This isn't like a student film. This isn't some small thing. This is going to be on the sci fi channel. This is a real movie for some definition of movie. what was the biggest what was the biggest learning curve for you on that? Like being with a the first real crew on a first the biggest learning curve was having someone tell me what they wanted. And, you know, especially when you're coming up on the really small jobs, you know SteadyCam. And nobody else knows SteadyCam. So you can walk in and say, Ooh, here's the idea. They're gonna be over there and we're gonna walk in, we're gonna meet them, and then they go over there. And and this was like, I want you to be on an eighty-five here and see this person come down this escalator. And it's like, No, ⁓ an eighty-five, that's gonna be and it's like, I want it to be on an eighty five. Did I Are you able to do an eighty five or do I need to change lenses to accommodate your skill? Mm-hmm. Okay. So you learn. Yeah. No, that's great. That's great. it's it's really important. It's actually one of the most important things I think I found in my career is like having people who will ask you to do things you don't know you can do. Sure. ⁓ that's that's the only way you grow. If you are only doing things you know a hundred percent you can do, you you're not growing. You're not upgrading your skills at all. ⁓ so so that was really important. ⁓ eventually after that film, I moved back to Philadelphia, moved back in with family. ⁓ I realized that Buffalo was a very small town and There's only so far you can grow your skills if you are the only person in a five-hour drive. Nobody really needs you. Nobody really wants you. Like, yeah, they're happy to have you. You can do a ton of independence blue cross commercials. You can do all those. But nobody was gonna do things that really challenged me. Nobody was gonna do things that made art. ⁓ so I ended up moving back to Philadelphia, and that leads to, I said, you know. I'm I'm doing commercials. I got in with some good people. I started like getting a network building, but I really felt like I was a bit stagnant. Like, okay, I'm 23. I've moved back to Philadelphia. I'm I'm doing work. Like I'm working, I'm paying my bills as a steady cam operator, which is remarkable. But how do I get from here to there? You know, with there being, you know, my idol, Larry McConkie, this person who I have looked up to. This God of Steady Cam who has done all of these amazing things, who is, you know, so many things on steady shots.org, you know, going on there and watching all these shots that Larry did and just going like, I don't even know how to do that. I don't know how to tell stories like he tells stories. I don't know how to be as clean of an operator as he is, but I have this vision. I want to be there. So as a 23-year-old, I again have the audacity to send Larry McConkie an email and Just I figured the worst he can do is say no. boy, I was brave. and I said, you know, hi, I'm a 23-year-old steady cam operator. I have done my first feature, but I'm still obviously establishing myself. If you could give advice to someone at the beginning of their career, like what advice do you wish someone had given you? What advice? You know, very just open-ended. I figured hopefully he'll have something to say. A couple days later, I get a response and Shaking in my boots. I read this email, I think to my mom. I and almost verbatim. And I've been told I go into a Larry voice when I tell this story. So I apologize against Larry. No, don't apologize. Please go into that voice. And I also notably I'm going to use a name here that I used to go by. For those of you who haven't clocked it yet, I'm trans. So, you know, I'm gonna refer to myself as Tom here. I am now Tori. Thank you very much. ⁓ but the email went something like Hi Tom. ⁓ thanks so much for talking. ⁓ I it's been so long since I've started at this point. I honestly have no idea what I'd say. Would you like to come out to my shop for the weekend? This is so great. Did did I do an approximate Larry voice? I think I think you got none energy. You got pretty the tone energy is off. The tone the tone was a teeny bit off, but for anybody who doesn't know but the energy it what what actually what what I was gonna say before was you said ⁓ Something ⁓ to the effect of if Larry had something to say and I was like, Well, that's something that's never been said before because Larry always has so much information about so many things. I actually one of one one of my favorite Larry McConkie stories is and I don't even recall what it was, but I I I think I texted him about a shot I was trying to pull off, you know, because Larry's always about f and you and you as well with Larry about feeling figuring out how to do these complicated scenes or whatever. And ⁓ and And I texted him and he called me back and I was I was in the passenger seat, my wife's in the in the driver's seat. And yeah, Larry ⁓ Dave, it's Larry and and I I got this idea. I yeah, I think I got something okay, yeah. And my side of the conversation was, yeah, but no, but Larry No, but if we well what if we nobody what do you think once he gets going, it's just it there's the he has so much information. ⁓ about everything. It's so fantastic. Any promise, any question. So this guy, and and I I I'm gonna ask the obvious, but basically you know him from like ⁓ seeing ⁓ studying the shot. Like you on studyshots.org, that's pretty much it's like, ⁓ good fellas and snake eyes and and unit. And and especially ⁓ there was a a video he did that was a breakdown of his shot on raising cane. And I think Charles Papper recorded a video of him at the Malibu workshop. At the Malibu Workshop. And he's like playing the video and then pausing it and rewinding it and going, So here's the conversation I had with Steve Burham. And you he wanted me to dodge the camera. And that I when you hold it at that angle, I mean I can almost verbatim recite parts of that video because of how many times I watched I'm off camera as I I'm standing next to Charles's and and and actually if Charles had gone a little wider, you could see my jaw on the floor. ⁓ I will tell you, that was the first first time I ever met Larry, and I was just like in awe, like like you were. ⁓ and and I will tell you the one thing. I remember so many things from that. But the one thing I remember very specifically was looking at because he had his steady cam there. He'd brought his steady cam out. And I remember looking at the hand grip, and there was this, there was this circle around the hand grip where there was no anodizing. Like almost like it the anodizing was gone. And I remember looking at it and thinking, like, because you know what you're you meet someone like Larry McConkie, you're like, what's the secret sauce? I need to know the secret sauce so I can put it in myself and I can be Larry McConkie, right? So I remember looking at it and thinking, like, Maybe does he does he have a way of operating or like is there something like what or maybe maybe that maybe there's a drag there or like that else with whip pad like I come up with all these ideas and finally I got up the nerve and was like, Larry, yeah. ⁓ what what's what is what is this? And he goes, ⁓ that's where my wedding my wedding ring drags on the gimbal. And and I remember thinking like, first of all, I thought it was this way he operated that whatever and then I thought, ⁓ that's actually so sweet. Yeah. A hundred percent. But he's just the I've nothing but great things to say about him. So so he invites you out to the place where the place where he is now. Out to the shop in New Jersey, out to this incredible workshop, and he he brings me in. First thing I see is he has a full machine shop there. ⁓ and I walk in and go, You have a Bridgeport? And for those of you who don't know, Bridgeport is like the manual machining mill. It is Built from the 40s onwards. Like you can still buy one new today. This is if you want to make round parts, you get a lathe, and there are tons different companies that make lathes. If you want to make square parts, you buy a bridge port. This is it. And this is a machine. Yeah. And I go, You've got a bridge port. And he turns to me and goes, You know what a bridge port is? And and of course, now I see it, and I can practically see the gears turning in his head going, This kid knows how to machine. ⁓ the things I can do with them. Yeah. I was just gonna say he's probably going, I've been waiting for you. And and and like I'm also computer savvy, so I'm like helping him with like a tech problem while I'm there. And he is like, ⁓ let's go up, let's have lunch. And he sits me down at his dining room table and we we have veggie burgers. And he's like, So I I watched your demo reel. I will note I had not sent him my demo reel. ⁓ okay there was ⁓ in my signature block at the bottom of my email was a link to my website. And he had just gone there and watched my demo reel. ⁓ So again, that moment of, ⁓ no. Dear God. ⁓ no. The the master of Steady Games watched my demo reel and is about to judge me on it. Yeah. And he gave me something that has really stuck with me because it felt like the most important compliment I think I've ever been given, which was You know, he Yeah, there's a lot of technical issues, there's a lot of flaws, a lot of, you know, things you need to work on. I can definitely see the things I can help you with. But he said, every shot of yours had a very clear start, middle, and end. And there was never a moment in any shot where I wasn't sure where you wanted me to be looking. Great. And I just kind of was like, well, yeah, of course. Because that in my brain is like, of course, every single shot in my reel had to be clean. Every single shot in my reel had to tell a story. Every single shot in my reel had to have a and and like every single shot I do has to have a clear point of view. I have to know the idea. And then I can present that idea. But if I don't know the idea, if I'm at all unclear about the idea, it's not gonna work. And I think I had kind of and gotten that from Garrett and from Larry, from these people who are so clearly about the idea. And so here I am as a 23-year-old with this terrible demo reel, which I still have and I still love parade guys. By the way, you're sending that to so I could put it on your Sure. ⁓ sure. Please do. but it it was shocking. And then he Larry just full on like brought me into the fold and said, Great, I will teach you in exchange for you doing work here in the shop. And so he mentored me and and guided me through that stage of my career. And and again, ⁓ incredibly lucky. That's incredible. And I'm angry that I wasn't that person. but I'm glad that it happened to a great person like yourself. ⁓ that's just that's just incre what what an unbelievable opportunity. But but the thing is, I mean, you know, jumping forward, it's like, you know, I've talked to both of you about so many gadgets and gizmos and whatever. It's clear that it wasn't. just one sided. I mean you were you were bringing a tremendous amount to the table that that helped him, you know, create so many things and figure so many things out. what ⁓ that's just that's just so it's it's also like it it it it to me is so what the heart of the steady cam community is about is is going, no we all we all lift each other up and we all help each other and there's no you're that you're up here and I'm down here. It's more how do we how do we how do we teach each other? ⁓ it's one of those. And he actually he established some ground rules with me, which I it's funny because I've quoted him on this a few times in front of people, and he's gone, I don't remember saying that at all. ⁓ but one of the things he told me is number one, there are no secrets. The secret is practice harder, learn better, be smarter than everyone else. That is the only way you get to be good at this. Is you have to work so hard that you know he's like, there are no secrets. I there's nothing that I am going to hide from you because there are no secrets. There's there is no special sauce that I am doing i there's nothing. And anything I teach you, you have to teach other people. ⁓ God. This is so like I'm gonna cry. This is so wonderful. It's so great. It's I took that to heart. You know, I a hundred percent took that to to heart and said, Okay, cool. This is now my responsibility. I am now the the holder of this information, I am the holder of this history, I am okay, cool. That that I can take on that role. ⁓ so that then led to the Movi. Now, so the Movi, for those who don't know, it's this handheld gimbal stabilizer. It's the first real electronic camera stabilization tool that was available to the masses. Yeah, when it came out, we were all when it came out, we were all like, we're done. Our lives were over. Well, that's it. It was either our lives are over or it was like this consumer garbage. And Larry flew to Seattle. And was like, I need to see this in person. Does it work? Of course it did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he comes back and he calls me and he's like, so I bought one. It's coming here. We ha we get the first one in the world. It's it's mine, it's here, we're gonna do it. Great. I've already got a movie coming up I need it for. ⁓ and so we played with it. And what he realized very early on, I think, and and what I realized is it needed two people. You needed someone to carry it and someone to operate it remotely if you wanted to do anything with any level of precision. And also he needed a tech. He needed another person. So he could be on the mill machining apart and I could be soldering wires the size of a human hair and all of this stuff. We got to collaborate and we worked tirelessly on this thing. I mean, me driving an hour each way to his house just to like get in all of this time. And we really honed in the movie and we we discovered a lot of things and worked on it really hard, which then led to His brother, Jim McConkey, who's also you know interviewed here on this podcast, ⁓ was doing a show called Blue Bloods at the time, a CBS TV show, and had pitched the showrunner on the idea of, hey, why don't we use this new cool thing my brother's using? And we brought it out. But to bring it out, they needed a tech. And congrats, who's the only movie tech we know of in New York City? It's me. There you go. I don't have a local 600 union card because I'm a non-union commercial steady cam operator. ⁓ wow, I didn't even think about that. Okay, yeah, yeah. So phone calls were made and I paid $10,000, like every good union member, which hurt a whole lot as a 25-year-old. and I joined the union as a camera operator to be a Movi Tech. and got my first union job as a as a Movi operator. ⁓ and it was mind blowing. It was like, this is this realm of production I've never been on. I've never been on sets this big, I've never been on jobs this big. And it scared the living daylights out of me because I'm like, I can't fail. Here I have this new piece of technology that we are trying out experimentally. We've spent so much time and money developing remote control wheels, all the ye you know, literally about two years of work in Larry's shop to get to that point. Where we could bring it on a TV show. And and now I'm the one who has to make it work. and that you know, it's terrifying. But we did it and it worked, and it was great. And Jim fell in love with this tool. So that then leads me to eventually working on Marvelous Mrs. Mazel as a movie and working closely with Larry as we develop versions and versions of the movie and Write new software for it and get involved in the RD and the production side of it. And as I help Larry, you know, as he builds out his rigs for stuff, and then he's helping me get really competent as a steady cam operator and teaching me. ⁓ and it was just, it's this beautiful symbiotic relationship. That is amazing. That's amazing. On on on Blue Bloods, because I never really saw the show much. I mean, were they were they using it to to run around with it? Was somebody else? Yeah, we were doing it was it was a big action sequence. The first thing that we did was an action sequence where someone gets brought into the hospital, they're like they've been shot, they're like some kind of witness, they get brought into the hospital, they've been shot. And of course, one of the cop characters' wives is one of the nurses who's taking care of this person who's gotten shot, but they're a witness. And so they have to keep this person alive. But then the killers break into the hospital and they shoot everybody, including the cop's wife. ⁓ my God. So it's this whole huge action sequence. And they're like, we want to do it with the steering wheel camera. They would call it the steering. It's like Okay, no, it's called the Movi. It's okay. Okay. Yeah. No, it's not a steady cam. No, it's not a steering wheel. It's the Movi. Okay. Yeah. And so Jim was operating on, I forget if it was wheels or a fluid head that we rigged up at ⁓ All sorts of wacky stuff. But he was remotely operating and then remotely operating and then it was actually me carrying it for most of it. It was you carrying it. Wow. Good lord. So so I learned hard. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ don't want to. But no, we we we did amazing stuff and then ⁓ you know, obviously I went on to do mil movie work on Marvelous Mrs. Mazel. I've done movie work on a bunch of amazing things, working with Larry and Jim. but I would say that kind of actually more integrally to my story. is what happened after I did Blue Bloods and and kind of, you know, in the interim between Blue Bloods and Marvelous Mrs. Mazel. And one one question. When you were on Blue Bloods, ⁓ you you're just coming and going or you want to ⁓ yeah, no, I was I was there for a couple days here and there. Yeah, that's what I mean. A couple days here and there. Okay. And so are you still are you still doing steady cam on the side occasionally? ⁓ okay gotcha. And and and primarily, I mean I would come in and be like, so I'm a steady cam operator from Philadelphia. And sometimes I work here in New York, but I'm a steady cam operator and I'm coming in to do this for Larry, right? For Larry, for Jim, for yeah. So you're getting your name out there and getting my name out there, trying to build the connections. Yep. At the same time, I also built a little bit of a side business because I'm such a tinkerer, because I take apart gear and fix things and do all this stuff. I had a little side business of buying and selling gear. And so I had sold a bunch of gear. And Mike O'Shea, who I think you've interviewed at this point. ⁓ I I've interviewed the other Mike O'Shea who's in Los Angeles. I have not interviewed the New York Mike O'Shea, who's on my list. I have not interviewed him yet, but he's on my list. He's a good one. He's a good one. But I can't tell you how many times I've I've texted Mike O'Shea in LA, meaning Mike O'Shea in New York, and Mike O'Shea in New York, meaning Mike O'Shea in New So yeah. ⁓ anyway. Yeah. So he's an incredible person, has been a part big part of the SOA workshop for forever. ⁓ And I actually, you know, knew him mostly through the workshop because I had started coming out to the workshop to teach a bit. You know, not not really teach so much, but kind of beat one of the helpers. and Mike asked me to sell a bunch of equipment for him, you know, help him listing things, taking photos of things, because that was something I did pretty well. And I had just left Mike's house after picking up, I think, 10 Preston MDR2s. ⁓ my god. ⁓ You know, that man owns a lot of equipment. ⁓ apparently. Yeah, yeah. And when the MDR threes came out, ⁓ they you know, shift over. Anyways, so I had just left his house and my phone rings and it's him and I pick it up in the car. It's like, ⁓ you're gonna get a call in a few minutes, answer it. It's it's work. Okay, sure. Thanks. Okay. And five minutes later, phone rings. It's a producer from Saturday Night Live. And they say, hi, yeah, we called Mike. None of our usual steady camps are available. We called Mike to see if he'd want to do it. He doesn't want to do it. Do you want to come and do Saturday Night Live this Friday? And the thing that people might not know about Saturday Night Live, obviously, there is the live show that happens live on Saturday. There are also what they call their film units. And the film units are pre-taped sketches. Sometimes it's a fake commercial. Sometimes it's what used to be called digital shorts, where they're little just, you know, short film almost. Sometimes they're a music video. Sometimes they're just some absurdist art piece. But every week they would do between one and three pre-taped sketches. So they have three units sometimes running simultaneously throughout the city, sharing casts, sharing all this stuff. They needed a steady cam operator. And nobody was available. So hey, do you want to do it? And I said yes in a heartbeat. ⁓ it was the most money I had ever been offered to do study cam. ⁓ like they told me the rental rate and I thought the rental rate was the full rate and I was like, Well and they're like and then your hourly is no one. And then your hourly ⁓ So it was it was great. And I went out and I did What I thought was a pretty good job. That the DP Aaron Phillips was incredibly kind. And the A operator was ⁓ Matt Clammer, who is now a cinematographer in his own right. And they were both really kind, really lovely, you know, really great assistants. You know, shot this sketch. It was went well. And the thing about Saturday Night Live, and this is this is a thing I I learned pretty rapidly. You get a script on Wednesday night at about 9 p.m. Thursday, you do all of your pre-pro and camera checkout. Friday, you do a 17 hour to 20 hour day shooting it. ⁓ God. Saturday morning it is already in post. It is in color by 2 p.m. It is in sound mix by three. It is on the air at eleven PM. It's like the professional version of the forty-eight hour film festival. I mean it's insane. 100%. It's insanity. ⁓ Wow. And So Saturday afternoon, and I don't know any of this at the time. I'm just a day player. I just got hired. I did a thing. I'm like, wow, that's cool. That's a feather in my cap. I did an episode of Saturday Night Live. And I get a text message from the DP. And he says, What's your availability next Friday? Because he was in color and he was watching my work. And something about what I did, whether it was my work, whether it was how I was on set, something about that stood out to him. And he Hey. I want this person on my set. And that started seven years of my life. ⁓ Wow. So I was ⁓ full time on Saturday Night Lives. ⁓ I first started on what was called the Good Neighbor unit at the time, which was the third unit, so the lowest ranking one. We meant then after one season, we moved up to Beast Unit. And actually at that point, we changed DPs. We went from Aaron Phillips to Charlie Graway, and then we also changed directors. Paul Braganti came in. Paul was Paul and I, I I think I don't know if he was my muse or I was his muse, but like something about our work together was just electric. Like we did the most incredible work. ⁓ I became the A operator. ⁓ they just were like, sure, yeah, go ahead. You're the you're the you're the person. and lo and behold, ⁓ yeah, then after a couple of years on Beast Unit, bumped up to film unit. So we became the top unit and got to do the biggest sketches with the biggest hosts and all that stuff. ⁓ And it was truly the most fun, incredible, and like skill-pushing learning experience in my career. ⁓ I I I truly don't think I would be the operator I am without having done it, because that timeline of Wednesday night you get a script. And what is that script? One week it's undercover boss star killer base. One week it is a reality show that's supposed to look like some trashy Bravo reality show. One week it's the shining. Right? But it's my Maya Rudolph in The Shining. One week it's like you don't know what it's going to be. And you have to figure out if you care at all. And I care maybe too much. If you care at all, you have to figure out how do I copy that style? How do I build that look? into what I'm doing as a camera operator. Obviously the set design is incredible, the lighting's incredible. All these people are at a hundred percent. Okay, what do I do as a camera operator? How do I, as a camera operator, in three minutes sell the fact that you're watching a reality show? In three minutes, sell the fact that this is the shining. In three like it it is an incredible challenge. And you know, working with a director who relied super heavily on Steady Cam, working with a DP who relied very much on my eye, that I composed the shots and I You know, and like he he had a very distinct voice. That's not, you know, obviously never, never discounting what a DP is doing, but like I was there on set doing it, improvising, composing shots, working with the actors, all of this stuff. And and it is where I learned to be an operator, right? Like, because not every week was Steady Cam, not every shot was Steady Cam. I knew Steady Cam. I knew Movi. I knew all these tools, but I didn't really know how to be an operator. And I hadn't really You know, I was always coming in as either the specialist steady cam operator or as the technician for the special tool. I didn't really get to watch other operators, but I just got thrown into a position where it was like, Hey, you've got to do this, and you've got to run a team, and you've got to like make a dolly grip like you, and you've got to figure out how to work with sound and how to not screw over your sound mixer by doing two frames that are incompatible with each other. All of that stuff was stuff I had to learn by doing wrong, and then figure out how to fix. ⁓ that's ⁓ that's a ⁓ well it and as I'm listening to this what so basically you did this every Friday, it sounds like basically every Friday, you know, we'd obviously have the summers off. We'd all go do a movie, like a little low budget movie over the summer. But yes. So but do do you think that there do you think that part of the part of the val I mean it it sounds like first of all, from the point of view of doing a different genre every week, that's just amazing unto itself because you're just like, you know You're like you said, you're you're either now we're this, now we're that. I it reminds me of Charles Papert doing key and peel. I mean, it's just like you're constantly fracturing those muscles. But then it also seems like as you're you know, you're getting thrown into the fire, but you're getting thrown into the fire for one day and then you have like ⁓ almost a whole week to think about that and go, What can I do better? What can I do? I mean, it seems like the perfect situation. So Larry, I did this thing And everybody yelled at me for it. What did I do wrong? Everybody yelled at me. ⁓ do you remember do you remember what what one of some of the biggest hurdles of you know stepping into a camera was? I think it was really people management, right? It was figuring out how much of my job was was managing people's egos, was making everyone feel respected and valued for their time. was making sure that no one at the end of the day left feeling like I was upset with them and managing people who maybe weren't up to snuff. You know, on that show we weren't getting necessarily like the the best of the best dolly grips. I mean eventually we did. Like eventually I had some really phenomenal dolly grips, but a lot of the times I had a human being who could push a dolly. Okay, well, that's gonna limit what I do. And there are a lot of operators who I think would have gone into that and been like, I can't believe this. You're fucking all my shots. And I realized like you can't do that. You can't be upset with somebody for something they don't know. And so your job is to figure out a solution. And sometimes that solution is to change the shot. And sometimes your solution is to say, I'm gonna need eight or ten takes of this. We can nail it, but I'm gonna need enough takes to get us all on the same page. And you know. Being able to manage that and manage it with grace and decency and and human compassion for these other human beings who are working incredibly hard and who are making a lot less money than you is really important. and and and that humanity, I think, was was the biggest part. And also communication. Oftentimes I am walking up to the director and asking them a question that is gonna affect what the ADs are doing with the background actors, that is gonna affect what lighting is doing, what sound is doing. I am suddenly going to know a piece of information that everyone else needs to know. So I became the keeper of the information that the ADs would walk to me and go, So what are we doing? Where are we looking? What are you going see? And I started making it my job of I'm going to go to you. I'm going to go to the ADs and go, we're looking this way. We're going to see this. We're not going to see over there. This is how long the shot's going to be. This is the focal length. There's going to be a B camera over here. It's going to do this. Okay, B camera, you need to be there. You need to understand. I'm gonna cross your lens a couple times. Like actually, we had a running joke on SNL that we were gonna put a sticker on the back of my Steady Cam vest that said hello, B camera. ⁓ just because that's how often that was just kind of like it's like, nope, Steady Cam is just gonna do this thing and tips and pieces. Yep, yeah. But that kind of people management, team management, and and and just figuring out how to do that and have everyone leave at the end of the day and feel like they accomplish something and are happy to be continuing to work for you, that's that's super important. ⁓ I I love I love that you add that final piece in there because I think that's something that most people ⁓ most people don't get. And it's not to say, I mean, personally speaking, it's not to say that that's part of the job, but that's sort of what you hope for, right? Is that is that you've you is that you've conducted yourself in a way where even though we're doing things that are hard and even though we're doing things that are can be tough to to accomplish and maybe we don't always accomplish them as well as we want to, that everybody is, is, feels like they've contributed and and been a part of something, you know. ⁓ yeah. At the end of the day, you know, I felt very lucky. I I had an experience working with an operator, Peter Nolan, who is an incredible A operator. ⁓ yeah. And was my first ever TV pilot as a B camera operator. And I just remember at one point him just being like, It's just a movie. There's no body on the table. Why why are you so stressed out? What are you what are you worried about? It's it's fine. You're a B camera operator. It's a TV show. Relax. We're not curing cancer here. And you know, also it's not your movie. You know, stop having such an ego about it. You're ⁓ spending all this time and working really hard because it's ⁓ it's gotta be perfect and it's ⁓ my shot's not working. Yeah. Uh-huh. Your shot's not working. Is this what the director asked you to do? Cool, then you're doing it. Great. Then you're doing it. Congratulations. letting go of that ego, right? that's been a big part of my career, I think, is is kind of finding a way to to be a kind, gentle human being, finding a way to be a definitive leadering voice to make sure that everyone is clear on like, here's what we need, but Doing so in such a way that is that is kind, that is respectful, that is gentle, that everyone feels taken care of, that everyone feels respected. That that is like my biggest priority. I quite frankly, I would rather have everyone feel respected and us produce something that is 95% as good than for us to get that last little four percent perfection. Cause nothing is ever really perfect. I'd rather I'd rather we all have a better time doing it because at the end of the day we all have families to go home to and we all have lives and there is so much going on outside of this that we're here to create art, we're here to make people happy, we're here to make people feel things. I th it's not worth sacrificing human beings for So great. So like ⁓ that ⁓ that's I wish everybody well, hopefully everybody will hear that. ⁓ but no, it's it's so it's so dead on because I think sometimes I I think sometimes we lose track because there's money on the line and there's people are pushing and we gotta make a schedule and gonna make this and we we sort of lose track that it's like, yeah, you know what? Nobody's nobody is on the table. And ⁓ I I I like I like the way he put that. That's that's that that's great. ⁓ So how long did it take till you you got to the point where you're like ⁓ I can jump on any show and be an A camera operator and I feel comfortable with I think it was it was about four years, I would say. So so four years after I started on SNL, I got my first full-time A-Camera episodic job. ⁓ it was a show called Dispatches from Elsewhere. It was Jason Siegel, Sally Field, ⁓ Andre Benjamin, Andre 3000 from Outcast, and Eve Lindley and Richard E. Grant. I mean, what a cast. And this was an incredibly personal project for Jason Siegel. It was an incredibly personal project for I think all of us who are involved in it. And it was shot in Philadelphia. So I was a local. I was interviewed, and the DP was just like, I I like something about you. I like, I like how you are, I like how you exist, I like the stories you want to tell. You come from the TV world, so I know you're capable, but you also come from kind of a more filmic style. So I know you're gonna contribute artistically. You're not just gonna be about banging this out. ⁓ And actually, I ended up writing the style guide for how we shot that show with the DP because we were bringing in other operators. And I'm like, this is a very specific show. The camera always has to be at eye level. It has to be, if we're in this part of the show, it's this series of lenses. If we're in this part of the show, it's this series of lenses. We're anamorphic, but we're cropping 169 and we're using one side of the frame or the other. So when we go from one side of the over to the other side of the over, you actually have to shift all your frame lines. So you're always putting the person who's in focus in the center of the lens. So they're sharp. The other side of the person is all distorted. It was an incredibly hard show to shoot, especially as my first show as an A operator is like. Yeah, right. But but it but it sounds like there's something about just the way you talk about it, it sounds like there's something about about it that that you works for you. And and you like you said, you be you geeking out and being very technical and being very specific and whatever. It sounds like it's a good fit. I really like to build rules. Based cinematography. Like, I want to not just walk in and go, yeah, camera goes about here. Yeah, it's like, no, no, no. On this show, are we a little low? Are we at eye level? Are we a little high? When I film this actor, what lenses look good on them? When I'm at this part of the story, what's our style? How do we move the camera? Are things punctuated and sharp? Are they smooth and elegant? Everything at the end of the day is something to serve the story. And By creating a kind of rigid system of here are the reasons we do it this way, it gives you a baseline and it gives you consistency. So whether you're going episode to episode, whether you're going DP to DP, if you're doing different blocks of a show, if you are doing tandems, and sometimes it's different whole crew, okay, well, well. I know that I'm doing tandems on this show, but I know that your A operator was Kyle Walshligger, and I know how he operates. I know the types of frames he does. I know the way he moves a camera. So then my goal is to ask the DP, okay, well, was it Kyle who shot this or was it Ryan who shot this? Okay, great. So Ryan shot this episode. Okay, so I'm gonna make sure that the work I'm doing is trying to ape what Ryan does because his style is a little bit different than Kyle's, and both of them are a little bit different because of this individual show. That for me is exciting. That for me is the challenge. And then like working with a DP who you don't naturally vibe with the style of. I mean, like going on to Law and Order. And and you know, I was brought on for the first two seasons of the reboot of Law and Order. And that was an incredible challenge because Law and Order is a very fixed show. And actually, we kind of got in trouble because we messed with the formula a little bit too much. We tried to make it more cinematic. And we tried to was like way doing way more steady cam, doing all this stuff, and and it was like, no, no, no. More handheld, please. No, no, no. It's no and actually the handheld can the handheld be shakier, actually. Can it Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and there are actions out there. The ⁓ complaint was the steady cam work that you do in the police section looks like the Dolly work you do in the courtroom section. And we need a more clear delineation. So you can't use steady cam with the cops anymore. Which I first. You can get worse responses. But to me, that w what a hell of a compliment. ⁓ your city came work looks too much like Dolly work. my my lobster is too buttery. Yeah, exactly. ⁓ but ⁓ yeah, you know, but like okay, that's a legitimate thing. So then like, okay, then we update our rule book, then we update our style, then then we have we have our guidelines, and that's how we build consistency in a show. And to me, that's like I'm always at any point in my career, I have to have a goal. I have to have something that excites me. I have to have something that makes me want to get up, get out of bed every day and go to set and be enthusiastic. Because if I I I've always said, if I ever lose this enthusiasm, I'm done. I'm out. I'm not interested anymore. I don't want to phone it in. I'm not I'm not cool with that because this takes too much out of me. This is too hard of a job. If I'm ever not passionate about it, it's not worth it. So I I there are easy there are easier jobs to do. If I'm just doing it for the money, that's that's fine. I'm doing this because I love it. So how do I make myself love it? Well So if if you if you get on a show and you start the show and you realize maybe it's not what you thought it was, or maybe there are some people who are who are not as good as you had hoped they were or whatever, do you then try to and you're not passionate about it because of things you can't control? Do you try to invent reasons that that you'll be that you're passionate about? Do you find try to find is that a mental gain It's a mental game. It's 100% a mental game because you can walk into the same show two different ways. You can walk in with this, like, look, it's a paycheck. I'm just here because I got to put four kids through college. Well, you can totally walk in like that and you can show up and you can do a fine job and you can be competent. But you could also walk in and say, I'm working with a DP whose style I do not actually can't make sense of. I'm working with actors who do not believe marks exist. And if I put marks down on the floor, they will yell at me. I'm working with a focus puller who is tired and not getting enough sleep. I'm working with a dolly group who's never done a compound move in their life. Okay, these are these are variables, but there is a solution to this. Okay, so what does that mean? That means I'm gonna use a slider a lot more. If I have to move up and down, then there has to be a slider on the dolly because they will move up and down and I will now do left and right. And if we're gonna do left and right, then we do not go up and down. And I'm working with an AC who's very tired. So that means I need to make sure that if I'm looking at a shot and going, this is gonna be hard for them, that I go, hey, we're about to do this shot. Can I give you some marks? Because maybe they don't have enough mental energy left to ask for that. And I'm working with people who are overwhelmed and tired and exhausted. And I need to actually go to them and be like, hey, are you doing okay? What can I do? Can I do anything to support you? Right. Like all of that, that becomes part of the job of an AOP. ⁓ but maybe not for every app art or but at least for me, that is my goal is is like okay, this is a problem. Everything is a problem that can be solved. And it's just a question of what time, what money, what resources, what people, all of that. What do you have? Okay, cool. Throw all that in the blender and and and figure out what we can make out of that. And that's the best thing we can make. Congratulations. ⁓ It it's it's I'm sure not everyone's style. I'm sure that there are a lot of people who would go, ⁓ you're compromising your integrity, you're compromising what the art could be. You know, you should stand up stronger and say no more. And it's like, no, okay, my job isn't to say no. My job is to yes and. My job is to say, That's fantastic. Why don't we steer the ship towards success? Ari y do you Ari Isler, operator in New York? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Ari Ari was told me the other day, maybe you heard this, and he said some w a director once said to him, ⁓ he said, Don't show me different, show me better. And I thought that's a really good, succinct way of putting it, because it's like, no, I know what I want. I don't want that, but but take this and make it better. And I think at the end of the day, that's that's really I mean, that's so much of our job is like they hand us this thing and then we just we we shape the edges and make it a little better. And and one of the things, I don't know if if you have this sometimes, but I think we all we all want to knock it out of the park every single time. And and sometimes you're just not given sometimes you're not given all of the ingredients to make a great cake. So you go, what ingredients do I have? I made some pretty decent muffins, do you know? ⁓ you it's just like if I'm making it better than I've done my job. And and and that took me a long time to sort of reconcile is like, no, this is not going to be the greatest steady camp shot ever done because The pieces are not there, like you know, the actors aren't pulling it in or you know, or whatever it is. ⁓ no, ⁓ a hundred percent. And and it's you have to be at peace with it. You have to care deeply about what you do, but then have the memory of a goldfish. And the moment that shot is done and they say print, moving on, you go, Great, we're moving on. You know, unless d is it something that I think they're gonna be really mad at me if I don't in in six months when they go into post. Then yeah, I will speak up and say something. But at the end of the day, it's not my movie. I'm not the cinematographer. I'm not the director. I'm not the producer. My job is to take whatever their brilliant vision is and give them the best possible version of it that I can give them with the resources I've been given. And at the end of the day, if I've done that, then I have succeeded. And and I think, you know, I'm I'm very lucky in that I have people in my life and people in my career who've recognized that. Trust me to shepherd their vision and give them the best version. So so you said that ⁓ you know you've been doing so how long have you been operating now? ⁓ okay I'll give you three different answers. ⁓ first time putting on a steady cam that I built was 16 years old. ⁓ so I'm 36 at this point. I'm much younger than everyone expects. Everyone goes, like you're 36? It's like, yeah, yeah, I'm 36. ⁓ I got my ⁓ I took my first steady cam workshop. at eighteen, two thousand eight. ⁓ so I've been full time only doing camera operating and the occasional DP job or things since twenty thirteen. So ⁓ yeah thirteen years. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So so wha what what excites you at this point? 'Cause you said, you know, you need to be excited, you need to be passionate, you know what I mean, yeah ⁓ 'cause it you know, at a certain point it's like And and there's always something in a shot that makes it, you know, or you try to find it. But then sometimes you get on shows and you're like, all right, this is gonna be one I'm just gonna I gotta get through and find something myself because it's not what what is it that that that keeps you going? I think there's there's a few competing forces, and one of which is my goal in everything I do is to be completely and entirely invisible behind the camera. I never want anyone in the audience to ever be aware. That there was a human being making a choice behind this camera or a human being's hands on this camera. And that is a controversial opinion. I I have heard people go like, no, it's great, you can kind of feel the human. And I'm like, no, no, no. I want to be completely disconnected. I want if I'm doing steady cam, I don't want you to be able to tell that it's a steady cam shot. If I'm doing a Dolly shot, I don't want you necessarily even be aware that the camera is moving unless that's important to the story. I want you to be so engrossed in whatever is happening in front of the lens. That I am just putting your eyeballs where I want them to be as the viewer, right? That is so huge to me that anything that I do that is a mistake is usually giving away that something is happening with the camera. And and that so that's the biggest thing I'm fighting is like, okay, I'm a human being. I have nerves and impulses and muscles and electrical wiring in my arms that's going down to my hands. And okay, how do I make all that disappear? What ⁓ what can I do to make all that disappear? And Then how tightly can I know this story to know that I have to move the camera at this moment? Like when I'm doing, okay, go down and tag the phone and then come back up. Okay, well, how long do you tag the phone? ⁓ well, okay, let me develop a whole system. So I now have this whole system where what I do is because obviously we've rehearsed this 10 times, I know exactly what it is. The moment I see the phone, I know exactly what the story beat is. I tilt right back up. No, it's too fast. Okay, how do you know it's too? The right speed. Well, great. I tilt down and in my head I say to myself the words, there's the phone. ⁓ that's her phone. ⁓ that's got the text message on it. And I tilt back up because I figure the speed at which I'm able to say that to myself in my head is about the speed of the lowest common denominator person on their couch in middle America. And so congrats, that's the exact amount of time it needs. I am constantly pushing myself to like, okay, develop systems. rules, guidelines, and also I really view it as a challenge to figure out what a cinematographer's style is, not just in terms of like, okay, well, like how much headroom do they like? That's that's kiddie stuff. No problem. Everyone can figure out how much headroom a DP likes. When you're doing it over, how much shoulder do you want? Do you want shoulder or do you want neck or do you want head? Do you want Body bites. When you're doing body bites, what body parts are acceptable as body bites? How much interference do you like? Do you like air between them? Do you like negative space on the side? Do you want to fill the full composition, especially if you're doing two, three, nine? All of these things are very specific rules. And and actually I have this great moment. I worked with a DP, this is back in 2018, on a movie called Big Time Adolescence, ⁓ DG DP ⁓ Andrew Hubsher. ⁓ incredible cinematographer. I mean, somebody who I I would died work with him again in a heartbeat. and he on day one, he's like, I'm very specific about Headroom. Okay. Suddenly I'm like, okay, time to watch. Time to watch. And I was hired as B operator and three days into the film he was like, Congrats, you the A operator now. That's fine. You know, 'cause he was gonna operate A camera and he's like, I don't feel I don't feel right about me not about you not getting the A camera operator credit. You're the A operator on this film now. It was I mean tremendous gift. Right. But I would do a shot and he'd be like a little more headroom. And I said, okay, great. So it's that much headroom. And I always kind of measured on my mom. They're okay, it's about an eighth of an inch, great. And then the next shot would come up and he'd be like, a little less headroom. And I go, Okay, all right. So then, okay, maybe you want to go into this size little and then I'd go to the next shot. You know, I I really want more headroom on this shot. I'm so sorry. And I'm just kind of, okay, what's what's the what's the problem here? I'm giving him what he wants, and he's not being mean about it. But just he's very specific and he wants something. What is he looking at? And at one point he mentions and just kind of offhandedly not talking to me. He's like the eyes are in the wrong place. And so what I do is actually I've got my own monitor. I always have my own monitor. And I I do not operate it off an eyepiece. I always operate off a monitor because for me, it is so important to see the set around the camera. I want to know when an actor who's off screen is starting to move. I want to be able to look past my camera and see something before it comes into my frame. That for me is critical. So I have my own monitor. So I put a frame line where the actor's eyes are. Just put it right through their eyes. And We go to the next setup and it's a different size. It's going from like a you know cowboy to a medium shot. And I put the eyes on the line, he's like, ⁓ perfect. You figured it out. I figured it out. And it turns out, you know, so then I end up building on my monitor a little red box that was a tiny little strip. And anywhere between knees up and an extreme close-up, the eyes had to be in that box. So in fact, what that means is when you go from one size to another size, the headroom changes dramatically. He had this conception that what he cared about was headroom because that's the way operators talked about it. Operators talk about it as headroom. I need more headroom, I need less headroom. It wasn't headroom at all. And and once, you know, towards the end of the film, he comes up to me, he's like, What are those lines in your monitor? And I went, ⁓ that's where you like the eyes. And he kind of looks at it and he looks at the frame and he looks at the actor and he goes, Huh. Interesting. And what I realized is that in his brain, he's thinking about the cut. And if you are connected with an actor, where are you watching? Your eyes are on their eyes. That is the emotional connection a human being has to another human being is eyes to eyes. And when you cut in that performance, in especially an emotional moment, if you have to find their eyes again, you've actually removed the audience from a moment. You've made them do work in a moment when you want them to feel. So that's a challenge, right? So suddenly you start thinking about, okay, well, what does that mean? About like when I go from a medium to a close up, the eyes have to be roughly in the same place or in close enough place that the viewers' eyes will naturally find them that they don't have to s hunt for them. Because if they have to hunt for them, I'm making the audience do work. And I don't want the audience to do work. I want them to be so engrossed in the story they don't think about it. Interesting. Very interesting. I'm not totally sure I buy it, but it's an interesting and but you know I don't have to I don't have to buy everything. But the interesting thing that you're talking about, because well I've worked on shows before where the DP is very specific about this or very specific about that. And the challenge for me always is okay, how do I incorporate that speci specificity ⁓ so they are getting what they want and still forget about that at the same time and get back to storytelling. Yeah. And and that's always the interesting thing to me is like, okay, so now there's a new hurdle in here. ⁓ it's funny as you were saying that about the dp being specific. So I was thinking to myself, DPs can be so annoying. And then I immediately thought, but no less annoying than steady camera operators can be. ⁓ we we're a difficult bunch. My God. We're a completely difficult bunch. ⁓ no, that's that's fantastic. Do you you have any recollections of like doing a shot that just completely failed? ⁓ I mean, all the time. I I I have this this dream that haunts me of of this shot that I did on a show called Extrapolations as an Apple TV show. I was not the primary steady cam operator, at least at first. ⁓ I was asked to come in and do the first week of the show, fill in for somebody who had an emergency. and I did the first week of the show. It went great. And then he said, Hey, do you want to come back for next Friday? I need to I've got a family thing. Sure. Came in next Friday. And the next Friday, they're like, Great. It's a stairs shot. And ⁓ I hate stairs. I hate stairs shots. And the DP goes, I want a close-up on a 50 mil lens, because we're shooting medium, we're shooting large format, mini LF. So a close up frontal, dead frontal, of an actor who is playing drunk walking down three flights of stairs. Well, this is a simple shot. Yeah. And to be frank, I Really screwed it up. I was like, Do you need a full take of this? And they No, no, no, we just need just need chunks. I said, Okay, because I'm I'm gonna give you chunks. They're gonna be parts of the shot that work. And I had a dolly grip who was not very experienced, who did not really know how to lead me down the steps. The steps had uneven landings. It was 13 steps down, then a landing that was six feet wide, then it was eight steps, then it was a landing that was three feet wide, then it was two steps. So okay, suddenly there's all these height changes and the DP is very specific. It wants to be this how much headroom and not this much headroom. And I just failed. I mean, I like I gave them enough that after several takes, they said, let's just move on. Which is always the the death now. Where you're like, okay. And they're like, let's do something from behind. And so I gave them something really good from behind, but I was like, sure, I'm I'm I'm that's an impossible shot. I I I I tell you, as you just as you say that. I'm getting Ajidara sitting here because on ⁓ The Tragedy in Macbeth, ⁓ it's Joel Cohen directing and ⁓ Bruno Del Benel is the D P and they have this ⁓ set piece that is a massive set of stairs. And I've been looking at this since I've been there, going, I I hope they never ask me to go on those stairs. I can see it coming, whatever. Yeah. And sure enough I go in one day and they go, So okay, ⁓ you know, we're gonna start setting this up. So ⁓ it's It it's a shot of a close up of Denzel Washington walking down these stairs. And the stairs are so steep that I I I think that they probably would be illegal in most public buildings. Like it was so and the and the landings were big enough. And it was one of those things where I was like sure, let's let you know, we'll try it with the stand in or whatever. But they were so steep that I couldn't get to a point where I wasn't below him, no matter how high I got the post and whatever. And when I almost got there, I'm like up up above and I'm barely stepping down. And Bruno kind of looks at me and I said, Bruno, I I never like to tell anybody that that we shouldn't be doing a shot the way that you want it, but this is not the way to do the shot. And I said, And especially with this actor, because he's not going to give me eight takes at it. He's gonna give me one take and that's it. And I said, Do you guys have a crane here? Like it we we could set the crane up and bring them down perfectly. And Joel kind of looked at ⁓ Bruno and he's Can we? And he's Yeah, yeah, I think we can. And I said, I'm so sorry. It's just I can see with this train wreck coming and I don't want to I don't want to not be able to give it to you. But I said, this is a normal stairs. This is the hardest thing. And I felt it's it's so weird because in a w in in reality, I know that actually I had succeeded because I had made sure that we got the shot well and which they did. They did a beautiful job of it and it's a better shot. But I but I felt like a failure at the same time. Do you know? it's really hard to manage your own ego on that. And for me, really at the end of that, I was like, well, it's been fun working on this, you know. This is the end, this is the end for me. And we go to lunch, we come back, and the next shot up after lunch is they're like, I got a steady cam shot. You want to do it? Yeah, okay, sure. Okay. So it's an 18 millimeter lens, which on full frame sensor is incredibly Incredibly wide. And they're like, it's this guy walking through this thing, and the ceiling's really cool. Can you see the ceiling? And I said, Great. Why don't we and drop the rig, make it really long, put it right on the floor, tilt way up so it's this big distorted thing, get right off of his feet. So it's this, you know, crazy distorted. And the ceiling is this like hypnotic shape and very trippy. And we do one take, and they're like, wow. Suddenly you're back in it. So cool. ⁓ my God. That was incredible. So, ⁓ do you wanna do you wanna come in for some tandem units? And it's that memory of a goldfish thing that you have to go, I care very deeply about this shot. And they have said print and they have said we've got what we need, we're moving on. And now I have to emotionally let go of every ounce of care that I had for that shot and every moment of beating myself up about that shot. And I have to say absolutely. Then I gave them what they needed, and now we move on. It's not gonna be my favorite shot. Is it gonna be the first shot in my demo reel? Hell no. But is it going to be something that they are happy with? Sure. My standards are not their standards. And you know, I I'm I'm I'm lucky that I got to redeem myself. And even on jobs where I didn't get to redeem myself, I still got to walk out of there and be like, I did the best I could. and give myself. Better that they're happy and you're unhappy than they're unhappy and you're happy. Precisely. Precisely. It's a simple way to put it. You're there to do their job. ⁓ that's great. That's great. So you mentioned before ⁓ transitioning, and ⁓ I just want to ask you about that. I mean, how how is that I look the the there's the human experience, which you can discuss too if you want, but how has it been from a professional point of view? Well, it's it's it hasn't been without its worries. you know, this it's a very interesting thing that kind of ⁓ I actually I think I have the strikes to thank for this. as I kind of alluded to in if you look at the timeline of all the stories I've told, from the time I was about eleven until now, I've just been doing video, I've just been doing film, I've just been doing television. I never really had a question in my life about what I was gonna do. I was always so steadfast about this is the thing I want. I'm gonna go do it and I'm gonna put everything in my life towards it. And what that meant was from the time I was in college, my social media was work social media. I had a company that I owned. I had all this stuff. I I everything in my life, every choice I made was pushing me towards being a better camera operator. And it was never really about who I was as a person. And there were a lot of questions in my life. You know, I've I've identified as queer my whole life. I've I've, you know, had, you know, a a complicated relationship with with sexuality and gender and all of that. but I never asked myself like, Hey, who are you underneath all of that? Because who I was was Steady Cam operator. And you know, i the thing is it's infectious. I love steady cam. I love all of this. And the strikes happened in twenty twenty three. And exactly at the same time the strikes happened, I went through some incredible family medical trauma. ⁓ you know, ended up spending a lot of time in a hospital with with a family member who needed care. And also suddenly had all of my work pulled out from under me. I had gone from working on law and order, 10 months of 60 hours a week on the biggest show in the world, to nothing. And when you have the rug pulled out from you so fully, you suddenly have to ask a lot of hard questions. Like, so if work doesn't come back for me, what am I gonna do? What does my life want to look like? And and thankfully I had a wife who loves me who cared a lot about me and made me answer those questions. ⁓ I think partially out of her own self-interest. and I had to ask questions of like, okay, well who am I? What am I? Why why is that a hard question to answer? And as I did soul searching, I came to a Conclusion, which it turns out is not a very normal cisgender male thought to say, God, my life would have been easier if I had just been born a woman, which is the thought I've had my whole life. And I just it's no, that's a normal thought. That's a normal thing. ⁓ and I'm, you know, I'm not ashamed to say it because, you know, it's like that was a moment of discovery for me and led me down a multi-year path. And a path that was really uncertain and a path that I wasn't really sure if it was gonna work out for me. And I wasn't sure if it was going to work out in terms of my career. I was def deathly afraid that like, okay, if I come out as trans, are people going to still want to work with me? If if I'm identifying, you know, if I'm using she, her pronouns and I'm showing up on set, sure looking like a woman, are people still gonna respect me? ⁓ you know, because I I've I'm very good friends with a lot of female camera people and I I know that it's harder. I know that it's harder. Like I've seen it happen on set. And it's unfair and it's awful and it shouldn't be a thing we have to think about these days, but it is. but I have been very lucky that like I think my personality hasn't fundamentally changed. ⁓ you know, obviously, I'm still the same person. I just, you know, am able to live a more full version of myself. And a lot of a lot of pieces in my life make a lot more sense now. And I'm very happy and also extremely happy to be in a place where I can be. visibly out. I mean, I really fought with it for a long time of like, do I want to identify as transgender? Am I still going to get calls? ⁓ do I want to, you know, how am I identifying? What pronouns do I want to use? And I came to realize, you know, years and years ago, that there was someone on set who came to me and said, you know, I noticed you have rainbow flag stickers on the back of your steady cam vest. And I always, from day one, I've always had a rainbow flag sticker on the back of my Steady Cam vest, always had a rainbow flag sticker on the side of my Steady Cam. Sled. And this person came to me and said, I wanna thank you for that because you having that told me that if someone could be at your level, if someone could be the operator and show up and be proud of who they are, then I can be safe here being myself. That's wonderful. I mean that's it's it's wonderful and sad sad at the same time. Yeah, exactly. It's it's sad that we have to yeah, but but good for you. That's fantastic. And so I feel fantastic. The same now as a transgender person that this is who I am. I'm not ashamed of who I have been. I'm not ashamed of my ha past and my history. And you know, if you go and look in the credits and see Tom Wills on something, I'm I'm happy for you to recognize that that was me. But I also owe a responsibility to my community to say, hey, it doesn't matter who you are. Be a good human being, be kind, be gentle, be respectful. Tell good stories, be a really, really good technician. And it doesn't matter who you are. Like you can be trans, you can be straight, you can be non-binary, you can be cisgender, whatever, whatever you are and however you are, your unique basis and the way you think and the way your brain works is valuable. And we need your perspective on SAF. That's just all beautiful. ⁓ really, really wonderful. And and I I hope everybody hears that because there needs to be more of that. So thank you for for sharing that. ⁓ I have sort of an odd question. I mean, if if s if someone you've never worked with calls you out of the blue, do do you do you mention something to them? I actually ⁓ I I have to Is that a strange question? I don't know. It's just not When when I get ⁓ when I get an email out of the blue and it's like Hi, Tom. And I go, hi. ⁓ also just to update your contacts. ⁓ gotcha. I go I go by Tori now. I use she, her, she, her, or they, them pronouns. ⁓ and I usually throw in just to disarm people because I think people are intimidated talking about it. I think people are afraid that they're gonna upset someone by by coming Say the wrong thing. Say the wrong thing and and people are and I was deep deeply afraid. I'm like, okay, how do I how do I make sure that everyone feels comfortable and that no? And and I usually throw in something in the email that says it is a very strange time in the world to come out as transgender. politically, this is a delicate time and certainly I don't feel like going into all of that, but ⁓ you know, it's worth it. It's worth it to be an authentic, true version of myself. And I'm I feel very lucky that so far the people who are excited to work with me and who were excited to work with me before are like. I'm so happy you're even more you now. You're able to be in touch with things and feel things. And I am just so happy you are happy because that means I'm gonna get an even better you on set. And that's true important. Yeah. That's that's just that's that's wonderful. Well, I ⁓ like I said, I I hope that anybody who needs to hear this, hear this, hears this, whether it's something that they've considered themselves or or they need to understand that. people are just people and treat everybody with respect and dignity and all that. And and ⁓ you know, I th I think thankfully and maybe you sort of started getting in the business in the mid two thousands, it sounds like it was a little prolonged. Yeah, tw twenty tens I'd say was when I s really started so so you didn't you didn't see the nineteen nineties like I did, or God forbid the nineteen seventies or eighties. It was a it was a it was a tougher place and and it's funny because ⁓ I was talking to someone the other day and they they were talking about, you know, learning as an operator. And I said, I want to be very clear that I'm not saying that this is acceptable, but I will tell you that when I was starting as a B camera operator, you'd be doing what we used to call rehearsals, and I can explain that after the fact to the people who don't know what that is anymore. ⁓ and Literally. It's a very bad time for me to take a drink, by the way. Almost do a spit take on that. Thank you. Sorry to make you spit out do a spit take there. ⁓ but literally like something hard would hit the back of your head and you'd turn around at the DP be You gotta what the fuck are you cutting their head off for? You can't cut their head off for. And you learned really, really quickly that you ⁓ that's important. And so I'm not saying that that was that was a great way to be, but it was a tougher time. There were some things that maybe were were ⁓ a a little better in the ⁓ in there, but in general, ⁓ I just I'm ⁓ it's it's so great that we are in a time now where not only can you you you go through what you've gone through and and step onto sets and people, I'm sure not every single person, but for the most part it sounds like are accepting and also that you can, you know, speak about it openly here and and that you know that there I would like to think there are more people out there who are fine with this than not. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's at least w that's the world I want to live in. Yeah, exactly. And and at at the end of the day, all we can do is be authentic to who we are as people and hopefully, you know, get acknowledged for the fact that like who we are as people is an important part of how we tell stories. And yeah, so, you know, that's valuable, I think. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's wonderful. I I was having a discussion a while ago with someone sort of along these lines and someone said something along, you know, lines of you just need to be auth authentic about who you are. And this one guy who was kind of a wise ass said, Well, what if you're an asshole? And someone else said, Well, then you're gonna get a beat down. And it's like, see, there that that works. And there you go. Go go ahead and give that a shot. See how that works. ⁓ best best part and worst part of being an A camera operator. I think The best part is how how much say you have over how this story gets told, right? ⁓ and it's it's all in little choices you make. You set a style, you set the the way the camera interacts with actors, you get to get to make the little micro choices. Obviously, there is a director who's making big choices, there's a DP who's making you know, big choices. There are all these people who are making big choices. You're making little micro choices and and you get to actually develop a style. And you get to hopefully get recognized for that style and have people hire you because they're like, I want my thing to look like the things you do. That that is that is such incredible power and it's responsibility. But it's also like you get to feel like I shaped something of this. I shaped a style here. I contributed to how this story was told in a way that feels important. I I that to me is a an incredible gift. ⁓ I get to be somebody who made people laugh or somebody who, you know, I did a whip pan at this moment and Video Village erupted in laughter and it's like fantastic. Something about what I did was funny. Great. ⁓ I think the worst part ⁓ is the fact that and this is a a bit strange. I miss, and actually I've been very lucky. I've been doing a lot of B camera operating recently. ⁓ as you know, work is what work is right now. There's a lot more positions where they're like, look, we've got an A operator. Would you be willing to do B camera? And it's like, yes, I love doing B camera. I love being in an actor's face and really feeling their performance. And sometimes as an A camera operator, You are sat at the back of a room on a wide shot and your job is just to put the little tiny Lego blocks in the right places in the frame so that all the eyelines make sense for the close-ups. But you know that the scene is in the close-ups. You know that this performance is all on B camera. And you're sitting there going, ⁓ my God, I'm so jealous. ⁓ you're getting to experience this whole world that I am just sitting here and and hoping that your stuff is good. Yeah, I'll tell you not to sidetrack you, but I I don't do enough of it. But I love being on B camera and and it's partially for what you're talking about, but it's also partially because like ⁓ it's like you're off in the corner and everybody's tweaking about A camera, and you're like, all right, let's set this up over here and we'll bring this over here, and you come up with these great things that it like because nobody's watching, do you know? Yeah. I feel very lucky. I got brought on to Mayor of East Town and Task as a C camera, D camera, E camera, F camera. I mean, I even did you know, ⁓ nobody's watching. Yeah, I did House of Dynamite as as their E camera slash arm car operator for their New York unit. And it was like amazing because they were just like, find me something pretty. It's like, okay, sure, I'll find you something pretty. What if I what if I go over there on a four hundred millimeter lens and and ⁓ just like Okay, cool. This is total freedom. ⁓ and you get a little bit more of that as B camera. As A camera, it's a little bit more established and and your hand is ⁓ held a little bit more by the DP. ⁓ But yeah, I mean it's it's it's it's a gift in both ways. And and also, you know, regardless of what position you're in, whether you're in A, whether you're in B, you know, you you try to do your best job to be an artist and to be a storyteller. And like you also You know, you're at the mercy of who are you with. Like if you're a really strong A operator and you've got a less strong B operator, you're having to pick up more slack. If you're a B operator with an A operator with very strong opinions on what the frames should be, you might be doing a lot less. And those kind of interpersonal dynamics are fascinating to me. And and I and I actually I really appreciate it because it it adds some variety as you bounce from show to show and job to job. I I just I've been loving it recently. I've been loving being able to connect with the actors in that way. And also because again, I'm a problem solver, I love the puzzle of like, okay, well, what's my puzzle for today? The puzzle of I'm used to being an A camera operator, where like, let's just move that furniture. Let's just cheat this, let's turn this whole axis, let's do all this stuff. Well, I'm a B camera operator, but I'm still an A camera operator at heart. So I want to just move this piece of furniture because it's it's messing with my shot and I don't like it. So I'm gonna move that piece of furniture. And then I look over A camera and the A camera operator is just like shaking their heads slowly at me. It's like Okay, so I can't move that piece of furniture. So then what? Because I'm not happy with it. There you go. ⁓ and and so that that problem solving is a lot of fun. So I I I kind of Wait, but I'm sorry, because I asked you what the best part and the worst part, and I thought you were saying the worst part, you were going to the big camera operator, but the the the wor the worst part is that sometimes you you miss you miss the the performances and you you kind of you get stuck in the back of the room ⁓ just doing that white shot. And that's that's that's not that's not as much fun. And it's also there are times where being an A camera operator is especially every once in a while you get a job where you've got a day player who comes in and you have to teach them the style of the show. And especially if you get somebody who's a little less cooperative or you get somebody with a big ego and you have to say, Hey, no, that's not my Mm-hmm. I don't I don't love doing that because I really want to respect what every individual person is bringing. But at the same time also it is your responsibility if you are the A operator, if you are the person who has developed this look with the DP That you make sure you are enforcing that across all of the rest of the cameras. Because you're the keeper of the flame on on some level. Yeah. No, absolutely. ⁓ and you have a responsibility to those operators to set them up for success success. So you have to share that information. But I hear you absolutely it's nobody nobody likes to be telling anybody what to do. ⁓ do you still get nervous when you start a job? ⁓ a hundred percent. I I I like to think if I if I ever stop getting nervous, it probably means I'm phoning it in. So so I I I do get nervous because I really do care. I care about making sure that I come off well. I care about making sure that I am doing what everyone else wants. And I want to make sure that I'm doing right by all the people who both have worked really hard to get me here, but also who I'm gonna be working with and who I am gonna be supporting and helping, hopefully, as they as they progress in their careers. I wanna make sure that like that that's a lot of responsibility and and it's it's scary because you wanna make sure you do it right, but That that fear, that anxiety before I go into a job, the fact that I can never sleep the you know the night before a job, that that tells me that I'm still caring. That tells me that I'm still engaged, that tells me that this is still something I love. Well, Tori, this has been fantastic talking to you. It's always great to catch up. And and I really ⁓ just thank you for your your honesty and your your your information and all the little tidbits you've given and ⁓ it's always it's always nice to hear a fellow geek discuss things. I I I try. I try. Absolutely. ⁓ I'm gonna leave you with the question that I leave everybody with and you can take us out with it. advice for someone getting into the film industry today on how to succeed and or something you've learned along the way that's helped you that you wish you knew early on in your career. So at the beginning of my career, I it was one of my first PA jobs ever. I was taken aside by someone and he said that you know what I really appreciate about you? Your work ethic. You show up and you are excited to work, and you don't know everything, but that's fine. I can teach people anything. I can't teach work ethic. I can't teach you to be excited and happy to sit down and do something hard. And that has served me better than anything else in my career. That I am excited. I'm enthusiastic. I am nice. You know, you can only really be a jerk in this industry if you are really, really good. And so if you want to be a good camera operator, you want to be somebody who has a long career, you want to be somebody who is successful. You have to be nice. You have to be excited to do the work, and you have to be excited to learn. You have to be excited to grow. You're gonna make mistakes and you have to be able to say, I'm learning from that and I'm gonna be better and I'm never gonna do that again. And if you can do all of that, you've got a long, beautiful career ahead of you. So good luck and hopefully I see you on set. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.