Dave C: On today's episode, we'll talk about following your instincts, being ready when the actors arrive, the studio, extraction, and of course, having dinner at Bono's house. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website, the op.io, is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done. The musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Like it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Victor 30 Echo Tech Team. Hey Mark. Hey Mark. Camera set. Back room. In action. Hello and welcome back to the OP Podcast, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I'm Dave Komitis, your host, and have a guest today from Los Angeles, California. Mr. Mark Gelnish, who is an incredible operator, been trying to get on the show for a while, has done some amazing work and some things that when I watch kind of quite honestly exhaust me. because they just look like so much work. so some of the shows that he has worked on, but by no means all of them, Mad Max Fury Road, the studio, Bono Stories of Surrender, Furiosa Extraction, Captain America Civil War, nominated for a BSC Operators Award in two thousand thirteen for the Great Gatsby. Emmy nomination for Bono Stories of Surrender with a group of other folks for in 2025. 2017, he was an SOC nominee for Operator of the Year for Hacksaw Ridge. And in 2026, just this last year, won the SOC Award for the studio for some amazing work there. And also kind of cool is I don't know if this is the only time this has ever happened, but it definitely made its mark. Seth Rogan, who is the star and creator, showrunner, I guess, of of the studio, when he was accepting as either a Golden Globe or an Emmy, we're not sure. I have to go back and look. award on on live TV, thanked Mark specifically. And I think that's pretty cool when you get a shout-out like that. So without further ado, Mark, thanks for thanks for being on the podcast. Thank you. Thanks. It's great to be here. So were you were you watching when Seth Rogan called out nationally? Yeah, I was actually. I was just with a group of friends. We were just sitting around there in their living room and we were just watching it and having a bit of a laugh about the whole thing. And then that popped up and it was really, really cool. I must admit it was totally unexpected. And and he's a very gracious guy and also, you know, incredibly down to worth. So you know it wasn't any surprise that he would he was up thanking the crew and and making mention of certain people that had, you know, he felt that's That's fantastic the show, yeah. that that must just be such a charge when that happens. And also you don't even have to tell me I mean I know I know for other reasons I'll tell you later but that he's a down to earth guy. But anybody who does that is a down to earth guy. And that's so cool that he acknowledges what you bring to the show. So so tell me what's your story? How'd you get how'd you get to the point where you shoot in the studio and get to this point? Yeah, I look I it's it's a funny one because I s I started out very, you know, I was pretty young when I started because I bucked the system a little bit. You know, growing up in Perth, Western Australia, I, you know, went down the normal path of, you know, you you you leave school and then you have to go to college or, you know, university. And I, you know, got accepted into the film you know, to do a film course. and you know, and I also got accepted into another area which was through Whopper, which was a performance and dance and acting side. So I had at least two options, but I but I didn't want to I I I refused to do both. And unfortunately in my for my grandfather and also for my parents, I were like quite shocked, you know, like you've got such great grades and you got accepted into a a university. Why aren't you doing it? And and and for me it was I had this really great opportunity to start off as a trainee camera assistant straight away at a production company after my drama teacher, who was my acting coach and acting because I was really, when I was really young, I started as a kid actor like in at twelve, trying to, you know, make a a mark in that area. And and but I was all really crap at it. I was pretty average, you know, and I knew I wasn't gonna ever make a a living out of it, but I really enjoyed it. And I really liked being around actors. And I really liked the whole performance thing. But I knew I wasn't good at it. But what I was had a natural ability for was photography. And my drama coach knew that I was taking all these photos and I was always and I was winning competitions and I was doing, you know, and I had a real, real passion for photography. And I and instead of it just being something I really liked, I was actually getting recognized for what I was doing at that age. And then I thought, maybe that's the path I need to go on. And then she says, well, what about if you blended the two? That, you know, the photography and acting put that together, and that's working as in cinematography, in, you know, as a camera operator or something like that. And I went, that's genius. And she took me along to a film set that she was a drama coach on, and she introduced me to the camera department. And you know, back then obviously this was in the late eighties, so it was all film. And they were like strapped. And I could see that they were strapped with you know, they didn't have enough assistance and stuff like that. And and so they said, you know, if you're really keen, we can show you how to load load these magazines and you can start, you know, loading film and be our extra loader. And I said Wait, how old do you how old do you And I was seventeen at this time and I was like shit yeah, I'll do that and then So I practiced it and they said, Well, you've got to we before we allow you to do the real thing, you we we wanna make sure you can do it in a timely manner so we're not holding up the production, blah, blah, blah. So that they they would put a stopwatch on me and and and actually kind of test me on how fast I could load load the magazine and and do the whole process. And, you know, and I just would practice a dummy roll, I'd take it home, I'd take the mags home and I'll I'll just practice at home and I'd until I've got the time. Down. That's cool. And I came back to them and then and I said, I can do it. I can do it. And then two weeks later, I think they said, Well, we we might have a chance for you to come and help us out on a job. And I did. And wow. And I was I was sweating like a a crazy person. and I just remember being in the in change bag and my the sweat was literally drooping down my arm into the bag, and I thought, this is gonna ruin the film. But anyway, and this was also in a on a hot summer in Perth. So but Yeah, so that's where it all started. But then I then I quickly realized that, you know, look, I really love the idea of being the one that's composing. That's part of the the you know, close to the actors that's actually capturing the story. And I knew that that's really where my passion was. It wasn't being a camera assistant. It wasn't being, you know, it I knew that was just the path to get to operating. And so I I used it and you know, I assisted for about four years and then I started I got the opportunity to start operating. You know, just little B camera stuff and then then I then I sort of ended up getting into in the tele television world for a little while and that sort of gave me the sort of like the opportunity to cut my teeth and then to sort of like really learn and and make make mistakes and actually learn from those those mistakes. And then also then quickly picked up a fascination for steady cam and what that can do. As an operator. So I'd already started operating, but then I was like, okay, I love this other device that you can you can be very physical with, you know, and you could actually create these very organic shots. And I thought, this is insane. I want to learn how to do this properly. And just so happened that Garrett Brown was coming to S Sydney to do a workshop. this was like in '94, '95, I think it was. And and I s I got work you know wind of this through the you know the cinematography society in in Australia and then I I I signed up and you know they only had a you know select p few sp you know spots or places and I took it straight away and I flew over to Sydney and I I did the course and met all these wonderful people, met some other great operators that you know, like Brad Shield and people like that who were really great steady camera operators. And I kind of got hooked on that and I thought, well, this could be a really good chance to get the the experience with this bit of kit could actually allow me to get onto a drama series or get onto me yeah on onto eventually shooting movies. And were were there not that many steady cam operators back then in Australia? Well certainly no. And and I was still in Perth at this point. So then I used that as a bit of a leverage to then jump on a show. Look it was just a small drama series in in Perth. a kids, you know, a kids series that was set in the in the you know, like in a forest of WA. And it gave me a chance to work with good directors from Sydney and Melbourne and various other places. And then that gave me the appetite to go, okay, I need I need to do something bigger. I need to get into a bigger market. And I knew Perth obviously was not going to be it. So I So you did you buy a steady cam did you buy a steady cam right after the So after the course, yeah, no, I was we I was borrowing one through the because I was involved in this TV, you know, in the TV game at the time at a local local television station, and then they had one. And so I used that and practiced on it and and sort of got my, you know, training wheels on that, and then we use my training wheels on that. And then I got the courage to then buy one. I bought a secondhand one off a lovely guy, Harry Panachin Hot Tides, who's out Melbourne, and he so sold his rig and then it was just from there that gave me the opportunity to then go to the next level and then you know try and get onto bigger series and work in Sydney again work in Melbourne where you know wherever I could on the East Coast. And then that led to me working on a fairly big film television series called Farscape. And that opportunity was just doing B camera and steady cam, working with a really good A operator who sort of really sort of taught me how to speak the language of film on a on a bigger set with you know, there were American actors, there were like, you know, it was a much more international cast and a bigger, bigger budget drama. And so it was a you know science fiction series. And then from there, that led me to want, you know, even go bigger and I want to do I want to wan work on movies. And then I had a chance with this wonderful cinematographer, David Eggby, gave me a chance to work on my first feature, which was just a small you know, a a pretty small Disney movie. And it gave me a then that sort of gave me the confidence that, I can do this, I can do this. And and then doing enough B steady sort of jobs then led me into having the courage to then or and the ability to jump up to A and I got the opportunity with on on taking over on a show that I was, you know, a very big American show, had a chance to fill in for a few weeks on Peter Pan. And then that gave me the confidence to then, you know, be in the you know, to get my name spruoked around. And Don McAlpine was the DP on that. And he was then in LA grading Peter Pan and Dean Semmler walks into the grading, you know, booth here in LA and said, you know, I'm going out to do this awesome movie, big action movie in Australia, you know, in Sydney. I'm gonna get to go back. And you know, Dean's originally Australian and had been working, you know, incredible career here in Los Angeles and and all over the world. But he he re you know spoke to Don Don and Don said, Well you've got, you know, this young guy he's up and coming, but he's Like he's got he's really hungry, he really wants to, you know, do good stuff. And he really recommended me and Dean interviewed me and I thought there was just no way in the world that, you know, I you know, we we he took a call and you know, I I mean I'm sorry, I took his call and I was shocked that he was even interested in, you know, you know, entertaining the idea of using me as an operator, let alone a operator on But you get to talk to Dean Semmler, so at there's not gonna get the job, but you talk to Dean Semler. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So he he he was really interested. And then he says, Right, what what are you doing? And I said, Well, I'm actually doing a little I'm doing an Australian movie down in in Melbourne, outside of Melbourne, actually. It was in Country Victoria. And but I'll fly up and come and meet you, and I'll see if I can get the afternoon off, fly up, see you, and then fly back and then, you know, start the Day the next day on the movie. Yeah. And he goes, You do that to come and see me? I said, Absolutely. And so I did. I got in this little like punt truck plane and it's thing. How big of a trip is that? Based on local country in the United States? No, it's like from San Francisco to Los Angeles. So it wasn't it wasn't a long flight, you know. But still. It's an hour or so. Anyway, so I quickly did that and then he went. Yep, you're the guy. And and I went, I was just thought I'd won the lottery. And and that opened up the doors tremendously. And what movie was it's doing What movie was it? And that was a movie called Stealth. And it was a it was kind of ahead of its time. It's all about AI aeroplanes, actually, which is kind of you know crazy. an artificial intelligent fighter jet. And you know, it was starred with Josh Lucas. Jessica Beale and Jamie Foxx. And it was you know, a movie we shot in 2004, and they shot it down in at Fox Studios in Sydney, and it was actually the first time Dean Sembler sort of like wanted to try out this new system of spider cam, but four-point spider cam, where the camera could actually move on a Libra head, on a remote head, but within the entire space up down. left, right, you know, moving in on different arcs or different it was never a just a linear not you know a lot of people think of cable cam as just a linear move. This was, you know, we could do moves that were, you know, nonlinear, rap big wrap arounds that the the aircraft or you know, so we had this aircraft on a gimbal and, you know, he could light the whole thing to make it look like the you know, the light shifting and, you know, it was quite an incredibly technological breakthrough as far as, you know, it was a The first time that that type of technology was used in this sort of c situation. Yeah. And and you know, obviously it was still back in the days of shooting on film and and the wonderful work that the Libra guys did with integrating that to the system of Spider Cam was insane. Like it was that's really leaps and bounds. It took that kind of work leaps and bounds. Anyway, so that I got the opportunity to play with all that, which was an interesting Yeah, but let me let me let me back up and ask you a question. So so you're going th this is your this is your first full time show, like where you're doing the whole show as an A camera operator. It's a Yeah, correct. Yeah. You've done it a little bit here and there. You've done a lot of No, so I'd done it. Sorry, to be to be fair, I'd done s a couple of Australian movies, A camera. Okay. but this is a big this was the bigger big sort of like US production, you know, the The the two other ones that I've done were like, you know, under ten million dollar movies that were made. But so so and it's and it's dean it's Dean Semmler. I mean, you know, and yeah and look, Dean Semler's big a big name now back in the day. It was even bigger back then. It was like, you know, he was at the top of his game back then. What's what's the mental game going in in like that? I mean, are you just are you just com can you you sleep in the night before or are you completely freaked out? Or you know, what what is what does that feel like? Well, you what? And what's the what's the biggest concern I should say also? Like what what was the thing that you were worried about? Can I can I pull this off or can I do this? Or well one one thing that I I you know, because it was a very much, as I say, the you know, the majority of the movie was shot on a Libra head. And you know, we were doing a lot of stuff with remote heads being discon disconnected from the camera, which, you know, f as a fairly, you know, I'll I'd call myself green operator back then. I was like, shit, I've got to learn this and practice this really well. That I can there is no disconnect. I've got to feel like I'm a I'm one with this system. So, you know, we obviously ironed out all the the the normal issues that you have technically as far as delay, you know, between the head and the the monitor and so forth, because you know, we're working with video splits and you know, all of that. but We we had we were ver we had a very generous rehearsal period. I I think it was at least four to five weeks of you know rehearsing this technology. So by the time we started shooting, we had really already rehearsed some of the bigger shots that we were gonna do. We so and I you know that seems like a luxury these days because it's very rare that you get a you know, a movie that has that level of prep. But it it It stood me well for this situation and that gave me confidence that, you know, I can do this and and it's a little bit of naivety too, Dave. I think it was I didn't know what I didn't know, you know what I mean? Like I just sort of went in guns blazing and just go, I'm gonna give this a crack. And hopefully I'll I'll the director's gonna like what I'm doing, you know. And he did. And r it was director Rob Cohen who had, you know, was famous for the Fast and Furious movies and yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, do you think that do you think that it helped you that you were that everybody was learning this new system together? So it's like, well, we're well nobody quite knows how this works perfectly. So like we're all kind of figuring it out, as opposed to just the standard like going, yeah, everybody knows the drill. Like Yeah, correct. We were all sort of learning it together and you know, and there was a massive team of technicians as well that was backing it all up. And but it it did just come down to the rawness of you know, just being a little bit daring. And I think one of the things that I learned from Dean and from also working with Rob Cohen and many other directors who've is that sometimes just, you know, like be daring enough to try to go outside of the norm, you know, and push the boundaries of what you can possibly do. And on that movie, we really push the boundaries and we We we attempted a one-ar, for example, in the Blue Mountains that on one night that was just insane. No one had ever done anything like this before, where we started with, you know, a close-up of someone climbing down a a off rocks off a off off a mount, you know, rock face mountain and then cha you know, following that person in close-up th through forest, all that sort of thing. This is all on cable cam, on this spider cam system. And then Down down the whole, you know, this the the ins in escarpment of where she was climbing down, then into this like water and she was trying to dodge being seen by the military on the other side of the the the not boundary but the the like the ridge or something. Yeah. And so so she had to be avoid see being seen and then the camera had to give that, you know, be able to see that there was these searchlights on her and So we had then get down really, really low and see what kind of what she was seeing. And then, you know, sho see the POV of, let me dive for this pool. So we go towards the pool, which was like a big pond, and she dives into it. And then as she dives into it, the camera then pull pulls away and goes high above her, completely above her. And then, you know, then this, you know, the shooting takes place because they see where she is. This must have taken forever to set up and figure out. I mean, it was insane. And this was done on a, you know, super, super cold night. I think everyone was freezing their tits off. But it was and you know, particularly the actress poor poor thing was Jessica Beale. But the entire setup we had like I think the hut, you know, right before lunch. You know, so we had like six hours or whatever it is to rehearse it before lunch and then shoot the, you know, the actual shot after lunch. And we only I think we only got that shot done that day, you know, like that was the only thing we had. Those were the days, right? That's fantastic. I'm gonna I'm gonna have to look that up. I don't know. I I may have seen Stealth, I'm not sure, but I'm definitely gonna watch it again. I'm gonna look it up because it sounds fantastic. And I'll it wasn't a movie that really captivated a lot of people, but it was pushing pushing the boundaries. So that that's that's cool. So so where did that take you after that? Like what so then after that, then that sort of took me to on onto a number of other films, you know, again, big American films in Australia out of you know, Ghost Rider and in We Shot in Melbourne with Nicolas Cage and lovely director, Mark Stephen Johnson directed that with r Russell Bo Russell Boyd was the cinematographer. So I did that the year after, which was incredible experience as well. But then then I started getting a real appetite for like, do I need to like stop? I don't want to just stop With working here in you know, Australia, there's a much bigger pool in the US. And I was noticing like in two thousand and six and two thousand and seven that there were more and more productions were coming to Australia, but they were also then also considering bringing operators from the States. And I was like, shit. So I'm now left out of those opportunities because their DPs are bringing their their guys, which is all, you know, totally understandable. And that's still going on till t you know, to to today, you know, the that's still happening. But I just went, well, okay, I've got to if I want to be playing in that market, I've got to get myself over there and show that I can be as, you know, one of those guys, you know. So I started making moves in in two thousand eight and two thousand seven, two thousand and eight. And it was actually I was working on second unit on Wolverine and which is in a movie with Hugh Jackman and He was really, really, really encouraging when I told him my story about how I wanted to go to the States. And he went, man, you've got to do it. If you don't do it now, you'll never do it, you know. And he was just like in this classic Aussie, Aussie, he says, give it a go, man. Like, and I'll, you know, and he was like fully encouraging. And he also said, like, you know, because he knew I had to get a visa and I had to, you know, get sponsorship and blah blah blah. He says, whatever I can do to help you, you know, make that that jump, then, you know, I'll I'm happy to help you out. And along with a whole heap of other DPs who were also, you know, had I'd worked with that that had the experience of working in the US, also added to that, directors, other people. So it was a you know combo combo effort. But I would say that you know, the the period of two thousand and eight when I was actually meant to be doing a movie with Dean Dean again, which was Justice League of America, and it was gonna be Directed by George Miller, funny enough. But then that version got shut down. And we all thought we were going to be doing this movie and we all thought we were going to get employed for the you know that whole year. And we were all excited and, you know, thought this was gonna be the next best biggest thing, you know, the the biggest movie ever to be made down in Australia. And the whole thing fell over. And it sort of gave me a realisation of how vulnerable the whole industry is and also How I, you know, want missing out on that job and it not happening, then obviously you've said no to all these other jobs that, you know, were gonna be happening that year. So then you just realise that this is yeah, big void. And geez, it really shows how vulnerable our whole job is. Yeah. So I just went for some reason I just did the I joined the dots and I went, you know what, I just need to really make that this move to to move over to Los Angeles and Give it a crack, you know. What else have I got to lose? And at that stage, I was also thinking, I'm not getting any younger. I need to do it now. If I don't do it now, I won't have the energy to do it now. You get stuck, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you get stuck. Yeah. So I I gave it a I I did give it a heart long crack. And then, you know, everyone was encouraging me. You know, so and then, you know, Dean did his bit to help me and that he ended up getting me on the very first film that I worked on in the US, which was Secretariat. wow. With great Diane Lane and John Malkovich and and it was a you know a horse movie, you know, about the story about that, you know, the famous horse Secretariat. Great movie. And it it was a it was it was a nice way to get entrenched one into the union. I w worked with the wonderful Tony Rivetti, who told me how you know he he was such a gentleman and and such an incredible person at Coaching me through the kind of like the politics of working with American crews and also how to, you know, just even down to how to conduct yourself and how to, you know, keep you cool and to stay, you know, stay focused and true to what the D P wants. From someone better than that by any means. I is you s you mentioned how to work with an American crew. Is is there a difference? And I mean, is there a big difference between working in Australia and working in the US? No, not really. I mean, look, I I would say that, you know, I really enjoy and I've been back down to Australia to do a a number of different shows since moving here. and I always love it. I always love going back and and working with a lot of my old older mates that I've worked with 20 years ago. namely might the first AC that I work with a lot in Australia is David Elms, who's absolute genius and an incredible craftsman. And there's there I would say that the that the quality and standard is very, very similar in the sense that there is, you know, the A crews there would match up with an A crew here in lot Hollywood. It's just that there's a lot more A crews here. A lot more in yeah in the US. And that's the difference is that you have just more people at that level. And Australia has yeah. And and look, it's definitely got the quality there. And it's definitely it's just that, you know, once you start l going three or four levels down, you then start seeing a drop off. But that's just the nature of any marketplace that is the same. You know, whether you go to you know, any other smaller markets, it's gonna be the same, same thing. But it's getting stronger and stronger all the time. I wanna ask you a specific question 'cause you you've mentioned a number of big name actors and and it sounded sounds like you went from sort of small stuff to big stuff in kind of a quick jump almost and suddenly you're working with like very well established actors that that you know, as opposed to slowly moving up to it or whatever. was that w what was was that a tough thing to figure out how to do, how to work with these actors and and were were there things that you learned along the way that that that worked or didn't work or, you know, because that's that's not always the easiest thing to do. Yeah. And I I think that comes from, you know, some of the a lot a lot of the older older time DPs entrenching you or, you know, p sort of like teach you to be as and this was a you know a a lesson that I think, you know, many DPs sort of taught me and namely, you know, like John Seal always put it the best way. He says Once those actors turn up on set and re they're ready to rehearse, we need to have our shit together. We need to have everything in line that we are presenting to them a stage that they can work with where there's no clutter, there's no extra business that's in their in their way. So if we if it's about put you know marks or if it's about, you know, the light stand or whatever it is. If that's in their way of their path where they have to go, let's sort all that out beforehand. So when they walk on, they have an that have a clean slate on how to perform without any disturbances. You know, obviously there is, you know, little notes you might say to them, it says, you know, we're gonna be pushing into a close-up and we'll be one foot away from your face. You wanna give them that heads up. But like but the the little the I they always taught me that. The less you can say, the the more that you can just have prepared and let them do their their craft, then it sets up a much better respect with the actors. And then they trust you as well. Because then when you do say something, you they they're listening to you because they know that you're not gonna just It's not just chattering that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's that's fantastic. kind of like live to live try to live to that. And obviously it gets a little looser on certain shows that, you know, e you know, for example, even the studio where we're where it is a lot more riffing and more like a little bit of ad living going on, then you you know, there is a little bit of leniency in that situation. But but definitely in the early years I tried to be as cognizant of that that sort of respect you should have for for these actors, especially when they're a lot of them that when they f first come out of the trailer after, you know, getting ready or whatever it is, that's when they're probably at their peak, you know. I feel like that you always want to treat them like a little bit like a racehorse. You know, they're they've they're they're they're coming out of the gate gates. You kind of want to let them, you know, have their moment first, you know, and then if it's not working Hey, let's hey, can we just you know, slow down your walk or can we, you know, because we can't keep up with the camera or whatever it is, you know. But let's see what they can do first. Yeah. I'll I'll I'll tell you something on that note, and I'm not gonna say the project, I'm not gonna say the director, but there was a show that I did where we had a director in, it was a TV show, and he was, I mean, he would he would literally interrupt a take and go, no, no, no, no, you and like redirect or whatever. And after about, you know, Two or three scenes of this. Number one on the call shoot just when he did that, turned around and he goes, Is it possible that I could just have one where I could get through it the way that I want to do it, and then we can talk about it and do anything you want. Just give me the ability to bring something to this, and then we'll talk about it. And it was like, and and yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. And and then you know, and then they finished and director went over and they had a little talk. And afterwards I went up to number one and I I said, you know what? Just out of curiosity, because I knew him pretty well. What did you say? And he said, Look, I just told him there's what you want. I'm bringing something, and I we have to have respect for each other. So just like let me get through one first and get the words out of my mouth. And then then we could do it. But just don't keep cutting us off. And I said, Yeah, that's that's fair enough. And it's the same kind of thing you said. It's like you they just want to you want to inhabit the space and get into it and start playing with it before they get all tweaked to death. I can totally understand that. But by the way, same thing as a camera operator. It's like, you know. Let me get through the first rehearsal or the first take or something before we start micromanaging everything, you know? I think it makes perfect sense. Yeah. And that that's it that's the thing, is like being in sync with the actors as well is like sometimes takes a couple of rehearsals and to feel it out. And that's why, you know, it is can be sometimes frustrating when, you know, DPs directors, you know, are jumping on you on the first rehearsal and going, you know, you're not taking well, you know, give me a second to cat. Yeah. feel it out and you know feel the rhythm and feel the and to sort of like just see it see their movement for the first time, you know. Yeah. So yeah, no, that's definitely something what did your work with John Seal on? So John DP'd two you know, he obvious and also got nominated for an Oscar for Mad Max Fury Road. so we worked together very closely on that. It was a long time in the desert. We were in the desert for seven months. Yeah. And then Furiosa was shot by s a wonderful cinematographer, Simon Duggan, who who did Furiosa and I'd also done Hacksaw Ridge with Simon and the Great Gatsby. So we had we had worked on several things and we And you know, recently we just did a movie last year called Practical Magic Two. again with which was in London, funny enough. But John Seal, yeah, he is, you know, by far the most that was such an incredible learning experience because I was working with with someone who not only shot one of the my favorite films of all time, and I know this question's gonna come up later on. Yeah. Which is but he you he worked The Talented Mr. Ripley, which I think is just the most beautifully told story, the most beautifully shot movie, the most incredibly considered performances, the most like to me it's like, okay, no notes. Like just that's it. Walk away from this movie. No notes. This is the most perfect film. But so I you know, we had many days and months and, you know, long time to just break down so many movies that he shot that I love. it's so good. It was fantastic. And he's so generous in sharing. He's he's such a he's a great speaker actually. If you ever get a chance to spal to him, he's an incredible I would love to. He's one of my favorite so right. He's I mean super entertaining. I don't remember who it was. It might have been John Waldo. I can't remember who, but someone told me that on and I'm sure he did this on a lot of things I was talking about how beautiful some of the environmental shots were in in movie with Robin Williams where he's the teacher Dead Poet Society. That's right. Yeah, of course. Dead Poet Society. Thank you. God, that was gonna drive me crazy. but anyway, but he was he said that they would set the camera and he'd he'd trace out on a on an optical flat where he wanted the N D three cut and pasted on and N D six cut. And he'd leave him there and and you he'd cut it out and then he'd come back and by then the sun had set to where he wanted. And I just like, that's a level of I don't even understand that. I mean, that's that's unbelievable. So you just sat and and talked to him about the movies. Yeah. And then look, there was many, many a day we were just in the war rig in the back seat of it waiting for the actors to turn up or to you know, you know, for another rehearsal or whatever it was. And so we had plenty of time to, you know, ha hash over not only what the shots that we were doing, but then he would then relate it. Or we always have a story, you know, like when I was shooting the tourist with Angelina Jolie or if I was when I was doing this or you know and it was just it was it was a fun fun it was a good way of you know kind of getting through the day as well. You know we didn't have any devices then either. None of these none of our phones could work. It's not like we could be get on and I was gonna ask are you out is the web is it out in the middle of nowhere? Yeah, so we shot it in the in in Africa, in in a country called Namibia, which is on the west coast. And we were very close to a s a town called Swakamund, which is you know, near the sort of like skeleton coast. And it's a very, very incredibly diverse landscape. You know, it has your flat, flat desert, but it also has these incredibly infinite. dunes, red dunes, and then it also has insanely you know, incredible rocky, outcropped sort of canyons, you know, that we could shoot in as well. So it gave George Miller this completely different otherworldly environment that he could shoot all these different settings for the movie at different to show the journey, you know, of time and the journey journey of space of them, you know, going across a long distance. So it was the perfect honestly, it's the perfect location for shooting that movie because that's fantastic. We didn't have to go more than say about an hour outside of the town to find these locations. And it and it feels like you're going across an entire continent in the and in both of those movies, actually. You know, I mean it's it's just incredible. It's ins I mean w it is it How do you keep your gear going in that kind of environment? I mean, it was hard. Yeah, on Fury Road, they had they had it really well thought out because they knew this was going to be a big problem with the dust that was naturally occurring, you know, with sure the wind and everything stirring the dust up and the and the the sand. And the silica there in in Namibia is is like so fine that it's almost imperceptible where it's going into, you know. It's going into the fans of the cameras. It was going into the That's why it's gimbals. It was go getting sucked into the gimbals. It was so we had a a tech that was I think he was ex Ari Ari and he was him and his wife would have a whole truck separate to our other camera trucks because we had like I think three camera trucks and you know, one for each camera and then sure another camera truck. So I think it was four camera trucks all together. Another camera truck that was just for maintenance. And that they would start, they would overlap with us. So we'd we would generally wrap around, you know, six ish or seven ish in the evening. And they would be starting at round five and go through till five in the morning the next day. wow. And they would just go through everyone. They would be wow. They would be, you know, overlapping with us and saying, Okay, we've we've blown this thing out, or we need this cleaned, or we need and can you can you, you know, so they would doing that over through the night. And that was for the entire duration of our shooting. my god. Every single that's just I mean, but but that makes sense. You'd have to. That answers my question. Cause I remember when I saw that you did that, I was like, that's one thing I gotta ask you. Cause I I've worked in deserts, but I that just seems like on a different lab, at least it feels like it in the movie anyway. And so I figured something like that. And we were using this, you know, the new technology at the time, you know, not now we've you know it's all been superseded, but We were using the REM cameras, which was the like, you when they were still yeah. Umbilical cord, yeah. The recorder. Yeah. So we were using th that system. So the camera could be quite small, but the the the recording was off, you know, into another cooled pelican case kind of thing that they kind of devised, which had like cooling fans and yeah. That's crazy. And and was it was was it was it Fury Road that the guys were on the huge pendulum things and whole cats. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just out of curiosity, are they are I mean, are they really doing that? And is it as big as you think? Everything was everything was practical. And George, it apparently it's got inspired by this idea of these guys on these poles from a cirque to Soleil. I was just gonna ask you if these guys were cirque to Soleil. I mean, because it feels though. The whole thing feels like that. Yeah. And he ended up getting, I think, a bunch of stunt guys that were trained like acrobatic guys from Soleil so that could climb up these th poles and do this very thing, you know. So it was an incredible sight because we knew it was all in camera, you know, it wasn't done in visual. So that's incredible. I mean Yeah. So we that was a lot of again, a ton of rehearsing, a lot of time to spent working out the angles, the best angle to see it, the best angle to put the camera, you know, like so it was and George is almost like surgical with his choice of where the camera goes. Like he really is and you know, John obviously has an incredible instinct as well to know where things should go. and we would work it all out, rehearse it, and then, you know, fine-tune hey, what if we just went a little bit this way or a little closer or a little further away? You know, so it was constantly being like, you know, George being this sort of the type of person that is very, very considered and very con you know, very I I I like to use the word surgical because he is he is like this surgeon. You know, he really is so accurate with how he likes the shot, you know. So That w process was incredibly fun. That sequence that we did with the pole cats with the guy, you know, coming into the cabin and then I can't imagine. It took a lot of, you know, e incredible timing. What out of curio out of curiosity, I mean, w and I'm not saying it wasn't, but it wa it feels like it's on the seat of its pants of just going completely haywire and everybody dying. Was it do you do you feel like it was actually done in a manner that was that was s I'm not saying it wasn't done safe, I'm not asking you to But was it sort of like we hope this works, or was it like they'd had it dialed into where you're like, no, I feel really good about this. This is not gonna be a problem. You know what I mean? Because that's a huge stuff. There was a lot of safety factors taken into account ever all the time. Like, you know, obviously all these guys were on wires. We were on I was on a wire when I was hanging outside the vehicle or any of that sort of thing. Sure. You know, we were in full harnesses. So, you know, there was nothing ever I never funny enough, on that film I've never felt I never felt really too unsafe or scared. I've been on other shows where I have been where you've gone, anything could actually go wrong here because we're in the streets of Los Angeles, for example, or we're in, you know, like there that they've been point times when I've been more scared because random things can happen. Whereas when we were in in the middle of the desert, we were in a controlled space that we had pretty I I'm not obviously there is always accidents that can happen, but yeah we they were definitely limited to a very low level of risk because we had been careful about how it was designed, how we how we made the safety for everything and then and then when obviously it was ridiculously unsafe, it was then done in a different way. You know, we but that's one of it's one of the reasons it's one of the reasons I asked that because I think that there's something to When you're doing something that is inherently dangerous and big like that, which no matter how you cut it, like what you're doing there with the big polcats, that's dangerous. It doesn't mean the way you're doing it is dangerous, but there's there's danger involved, right? Then you're hyped up, you're making sure everything works correctly. You're you're going, okay, but what if, but what if, but what if? And and it seems to me like sometimes the more dangerous things are, wait a minute, is that is that Car can that car turn in in here while we're going down the driveway? Have you locked up that you know, like something that's random that isn't dangerous and nobody's thinking about it, then you almost have to be more on top of it and making sure that everything's done. I remember years ago, I want to say it was Eddie Pay, but I'm not sure. But someone told me that on the black on the movie about the black on the movie Panther, which was done in like the eighties, all it was just a shot of a car pulling up to the camera, a guy, you know, puts it in park and gets out or whatever. It's not nothing. And the camera's there, they're on a hi-hat operating it. And car pulls up, stops, wait, wait, wait. And they go, Cut, what's going on? And the guy, the actor or whoever was in it, had pulled up the car and put it in park and and had a heart attack. As he was having a heart attack as it was happening. And he he apparently survived, but he's sitting he can't move and he's sitting in the car. And and all of a sudden they're thinking like, if that had been, you know, two seconds later, he wouldn't have put the brakes on and he would have he would have hit the camera. You know, so it's just those things that you don't think about sometimes. yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's always that weird, you know, I always think about that when we're putting a camera in front of a car. It's like, I know this probably isn't gonna happen. You know, but anyway, but that's why I ask because when you're doing something like that, so tell me, tell me about extraction. Because yeah, I was gonna say when you when as soon as you said that about cars and I thought, geez, when we did extraction, that was like a certainly a the next level as far as this that director is a his he was a stunt coordinator, is that right? Yeah, he's a stunt coordinator. So I'd I'd actually met Sam working on way back on, you know, the first Avengers movie. I was doing second unit at the time, doing A Camera on Second Unit, which was a lot of that, you know, the stunts and the crazy ass stunts they were doing on that those Marvel type movies. Yeah. so I got introduced to him then and then we worked again on Captain America's Civil War, and he was the stunt coordinator and stunt he was also one of the stunt guys. and we had met on that. And then when the Russo brothers decided that they would do this film extraction, you know, I I got put forward through various people and Tom Siegel was shooting it. So it we we got to work together on that. And I've got to say, Because of his experience with the stunt, the difficulty of st the stunts in that sh movie, he actually did, you know, and I to his credit, he he designed and created that whole wana himself. And he actually had to operate it because it was so dangerous. In his head. And so and so also because it was a stunt that he was doing. And for me to do it, I would have to be a you know, qualified stunt guy. Yeah. So it just made sense. You know, he's directing it. He should do it, you know. And he did do it. And and then obviously all the rest of the movie was, you know, I had input into all of that, you know, in the operating of that because that was like more in a a traditional sense. You know, whether it was handheld or whether it was in on Steadicam or Dolly's or whatever it was that we were using. But it was a very phonetic film and it was a very fast and crazy You know, he really did push the boundaries and it was fun. It was actually a fun to be pushed to that level. It wasn't I wouldn't say it was super fun working in India. That was tough. Well how was so Amnabad we were in Ahmedabad, which is you know, north of where Mumbai is, and it's it it was just a very smoggy, polluted city that was perfect for the film, but it was It was tricky to work in. It was, you know, it was also hot as hell and it was you know, the conditions were were pretty tough. But, you know, look, I think when you're on those sort of projects where it is tough, I feel like the crew really bandy together and they just you you kind of almost feel like you're part of a football team or something. Like, you know, you're really all helping each other out to get through it, you know. And again, no devices, you didn't have any distractions. So you were totally focused on what you had to do that day and get it done. And there was no room for being off your game or not paying attention. Cause that would mean someone gets hurt. Or that means that we miss we miss a take that a stunt guy could potentially hurt himself if we do it again. So there was a that there was always that level of anxiety or or pressure on. making sure that you were really, really, really on your game and you know that you were getting the timing right. And you know, so and I you know, and I will be the first to say that, you know, you sometimes you do screw up and it is one of those things. But you try and make those mistakes fewer and fewer and try and do them when you can do it on Rehearsals rather than on the actual takes. Yeah. So I want to ask you a question because you know, these two films or these three films that we've talked about and specifically are huge action movies and there's a ton of stunts. And like you said, you know, you're filming stuff and sure your stuff is tough, but but there are people who are putting themselves at risk doing some sort of, you know, big fall or or whatever it happens to be for that. So is is there are there any techniques that you can speak to, or do you have anything that works for you, or do you know, do you do anything? To sort of push the anxiety out so that you can just do do your job and go, I'm not gonna pay attention to this. I'm not, you know, you push all the noise out so you can just go, I have to nail this because this guy's fallen off of a building, and the last thing I want to do is be be the reason that we don't get it, do you know? Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. And a lot of the times with those things like the falls off the building or whatever, you almost can't look at it's tricky. It's there's so many. It there's a number of operator tricks that sometimes I'm more successful with shots where I'm following a a body or whatever by looking at the actual person, not looking in the viewfinder, not looking at the monitor or whatever, and instinctively going when you see them. Because of that micro delay that might be in the viewfinder or you not being, you know, not seeing it till it's actually in your frame. It's better that you actually just almost go off instinct, you know, if it's if it's let's say it's handheld or whatever. And sometimes and I look I I learnt this on one of the one of the films, I think it was Rampage, actually, funny enough, which was a a movie that was in a we were in this plane that was crashing. And you know, the the plane was doing all this crazy stuff on the gimbal, and I had to follow an actor from one side to another. And then and because it was shaking and the whole aircraft was you know literally physically shaking so much that the monitor on the camera on the handheld camera that I was using fell off. So I didn't have a camera it didn't have a monitor. So I just went with okay, what am I meant to be framing and where I'm going and like and just do it purely by instinct. Uh-huh. The shot that I did without the monitor is in the movie. And the character went that was the most incredible framing and the c most incredible timing because I was in sync with the actual action rather than being slave to a monitor or slave to a viewfinder or whatever. And it it it was a lesson to myself that you just gotta trust your instinct of just being at one with the the feel of that. And then and that's consumptive and I'm not saying that's going to always work, 'cause obviously that's not gonna work in if you're doing some precise, you know, the sure. where you have to finish up on a a precise frame or whatever. But in that sort of action where you're trying to capture the hecticness of what's going on, it sometimes is the best. That's fantastic. it may it it it makes perfect sense. And I it's funny you were talking about the, you know, like someone rolling off a roof or whatever. There is that thing where if you're just looking in the eyepiece, if they're coming into the frame. But by the time they've come into the frame, you're too late because you're never gonna there there's just the physics of keeping up with it. So you do have to watch it. I remember years and years and years ago when I was doing a fall off a roof. I it was one of the first times I'd done it. And I was so I was trying to rehearse it and I and I was trying to like just make sure, you know, I wasn't hitting anything and whatever. I was trying to think of anything I could do. And the first day see, and I don't I can't remember who it was, but he said, Do you want you wanna have someone go up there and drop a tennis ball off the roof? And I said, Well, I I don't What do you mean a t tennis ball? Is he goes, Well, everything falls at the same rate. So you you you'll follow the tennis ball down, you'll follow the guy down. It's like it's gonna be the same speed. And I went, well, that makes a tremendous amount of sense. And so they sent someone up there and they dropped it off so I could at least get a feeling of what the speed of the dropping was, and you know, and and it helped me. But it's like there are all these tricks and and the the idea of just watching the physics of it as opposed to just being Yeah, that that's that's fantastic. But But the other question that I had was what about sort of quieting the noise that I mean, do you have anxiety before these or have you done it enough that you're just like, I you know, I I know how to deal with this? Yeah, that is a good question about quieting the noise. I think what I like to do, especially if I know I'm having to try and get something, I I try and block any of if I'm if I do need to see like for example the crane and I'm do I'm working off a crane and I'm on remote head, I'll always make sure the console is in a position where I can see the action, I can see the crane or I can see the head, and I can be in the corner of my eye, I can see what's going on. And have a clear view where there's no distraction. And one thing I can't stand is if someone, you know, comes into my eye line and then as you're about to do the shot or something like that. So I generally get the grips or whatever to just, you know, put it put a you know floppy or something that can sort of block that that side of your distraction. Yeah. So then you can just be zoned in on what you need to look at and and just be that that's that's a technique I think Especially when you're disconnected from the camera. But when you're with the camera, obviously the more you can have two eyes on what's going on, you know, one on the actor or the the the thing that's a that you're following and the other on the the eyepiece or the the Yeah the you know, the monitor, whate in whatever case. Whatever you use. But you know, w it's always trickier with, you know, like when you're in the arm car where you're you're separated from the actual camera. It it it it's always more difficult in those environments because you are disconnected and then you've got that, you know, so you almost have to then try and think ahead and have pre-visualise what you're trying to achieve in your in your head of what you're trying and if you can pre visualize it, you then almost it's programming your mind to know, okay, I've got to turn this way or I've to, you know, make sure the camera ends up in this position. that's what I've kind of in my head pre-visualized it. Even you've seen it. I love that because I I I think I definitely I didn't think about it, but I think I definitely do that is I pre-visualize it and then there's sort of a this is this is what it this is the movie I saw in my head. This must be working. Like I know where we're going next and and whatever. yeah that's that that's a great piece of advice. I just because I have to ask about it. Bono Stories of Surrender, was this just like some artistic thing that he where he was discussing his career or whatever? I I I didn't even hear about this. Yeah, I had the great opportunity of working with Eric Mesherschmidt, who has shot so many other great movies, and amazing. He had an incredible, you know, he asked me to do this incredible project where we could shoot Bono's sort of like story out of his his. life but told in a theatrical version of that. And he performed it at the Beacon Theatre in New York. And we had the opportunity to film him at the th on stage but with this very small ensemble of people that were you know two two two great musicians that were playing with him but it sort of was done as a musical slash tribute to his life through his music wow and through his songs and he told you know his how he was you know his relationship with his father, his relationship with his mother and when he lost his mother and what you know and it it it it deals with grief, it deals with his rise and fame and fortune and all that sort of thing. It's it's incredibly compelling story. And we also, you know, with that project had the opportunity to shoot in Ireland and and we also went to Italy, to Naples to shoot this incredible performance that he did there. So it was a really, you know, one of those gifts of a job. andrew Dominic was the director who is incredible storyteller himself, you know, and he he really, really dug into that creative aspect of it. And I I I worked as not only with Steady Cam and camera operating, but also doing Trinity. We used that a fair bit on that show as well. So gave us a little bit of a you know extra flexibility to move the camera. Fantastic. Well, yeah, that's why I asked because that that seems like one of those gift things where you get to hang out with someone who's that talented and, you know, such a part of like our growing up and music and everything like that. I mean, that must have been fantastic. I I it's an Apple, I'll have to check it out. I wasn't aware of it. That's really cool. Yeah. It's a really it's a nice special and it's yeah, it was really we were very, very fortunate. And you know, to the point where we we had a rap party in Ireland and We managed to get to you know, have dinner with Bono in in his house at his house in outside of Dublin, you know, which is insane. Like, you know. It was insane. And you know, and he's hosted the Obamas there and the Clintons and the you know, you know. Gaddafi and all these like Yeah, so it was it was an incredible experience and I yeah, I still Treasure opportunities. No, that's fantastic. So so I gotta I gotta ask you about the studio. and before I ask you about that, I'll I'll tell you my little my little story, which is you know what years and years and years ago, I did the movie Donnie Darko, and Seth was in it as one of Donnie's friends for for you know half amenities and a handful of scenes. But whenever he was on set, and there were a couple there were times when he would show up when he wasn't on set, he would, he would just ask Norman Parker, the assistant and I, along with other people, all sorts of questions about filmmaking and whatnot. And I remember Norman, and you know, he was a day player. He had like a couple of lines, it wasn't a big thing. And I remember Norman was like, That kid's gonna be something someday. And I'm like, Him? You know, he's like twenty some years old, whatever. I I guess so, whatever. And sure enough, you know, he's he's turned into this kind of powerhouse. And and I I I it's nice to hear you say that at the beginning because back then he was such a wonderful kid. And and it sounds like he's he he hasn't changed that much and he's still a good guy. tell me about tell me about that show. what what's yeah, definitely it's it's funny that you mentioned Donnie Darko because I only just went and saw it fairly recently. They had a and they showed it for the anniversary, was it the twenty fifth or twenty fifth which just came by or something like Yeah. And it was at Tarantino's Theatre in the New Beverly. yeah, they missed us. Yeah. I went Yeah, and I went along and and saw it there and it was insane. And I didn't even know Seth was in it. I mean I did know, but I'd forgotten that he was in it. Sorry. And but it reminded me of like, yeah, he was this young, very young and green actor. I don't even think Freaks and Geeks had come out yet when he did that. So like no he was he was literally unknown at that point. Unknown, yeah. But yeah, yeah. it's insane. It's really insane. But yeah, getting to what you asked, and yes, he's absolutely a delight to work with. And I have, you know, been in some of the most stressful times in the sea, you know, in season one was I remember it was probably around about the god, was it like the second second week or whatever it is of production and we were shooting with Ron Howard and I was like really nervous about this one that we were gonna do that, you know, took him from the office, you know, his office all the way out, down, you know, down the corridor, into the the the conference room, then into the s inside the table of the conference room, around this entire table, all the entire ensemble of the you know, cast. is this the one where you would go hence? You go inside the sort of yeah, yeah, correct. I do I remember this, yeah, yeah. And and and this thing was like, you know, there were so many beats that I had to hit at certain time on certain words and on certain even just looks or the reaction of someone that there was so many notes in my head, I thought I don't know if I've got eight minutes worth of those and that those notes. You know what I mean? Like and I just went. And Seth, he could see I was freaking the fuck out. I was gonna I was gonna probably pass out with nerves. Yeah. And you know, and I knew Ron Howard was not he's the one of these p actors that will come out of, you know, he'll be ready, take one, and we'll be perfect. Do you know what I mean? Like it's not like he he needs to ramping up. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, okay, we've gotta get this right. And I was freaking out. And then I just remember Seth going, Are you okay? And I said, Yeah, I'm freaking out. And and I said, I don't want to I don't want to screw this shot up. That means we have to go all the way back to the start. He says, It doesn't matter. We we're gonna do this about you know, we're gonna do this dozens and dozens of times. And I thought he was joking, but he wasn't. We actually did do it dozens of times. And we had many times to, you know, get it right. We I think we ended up doing that that sequence twenty-six times. Whoa. And over a period of, you know, nearly most of the day, you know. So it was a really, really difficult sequence. But we massaged it, you know, and there was obviously changes within the the script as well that they were doing on the fly because something wouldn't land right or you know, but then there was there i it then gets to a point where okay, we just need to now fine tune the camera with the performance. And then that just becomes a process of literally memory, you know, and I have for, you know, become very intimately attached to that that script and what they're saying and and every nuance of their reaction to know that they're, you know, you might want to go on the end of a certain word so you get the reaction of the other actor before they that word is finished, if you know what I mean. So you can see their face. So it you know, that storytelling almost like I felt like I wasn't the editor as well, because I'm you know I'm determined what the audience is seeing, you know. So Yeah. Well and and do do you do you I mean, you do so many big wonders on that. I mean, just look look first, total props to you because the physicality of what you do on that show is it just looks exhausting knowing what goes into those. Like you said, like just the ground you're covering. I mean, I'm not talking about operating, I'm just talking about the you know, the the the the physicality of it. But but yeah, remembering all these lines and I mean is there is there any trick to that? Do you do you try to learn the script ahead of time? Do you take it day by day? Like what what do you how do you get to that? Yeah, I you know, obviously I've read the script before the day and then you know a number of times and then when when it comes up to doing the take takes, I will try and learn all the lines prior to the, you know, well during the rehearsals while we're doing second team and while we're doing the whatever rehearsals we are doing with the actual actors and just trying to learn it almost like get it grounded into me like where each of the beats are and because then I'll also be working out my footwork of where I need to be at certain lines. You know what I mean? So I'm kind of making notes of okay on on this line I'm gonna be moving around this actor to get to this person so I can see a two shot or I can then come out to a wide shot to get their reaction, but then pan back when you say immediately after they've reacted. When you say making notes, like are you actually ta like writing things down or are you just making mental notes? Generally doing mental notes. I mean sometimes I'll put little markers on the script on my sides, you know, like okay, I'll I'll I'll do a little shorthand of you know, especially if cause there were certain times when Seth and Evan would come up to me and go, Hey, make sure that we're on, you know, Seth's reaction rather than the line of the actor, you know, the other person for his reaction. So then you'd go, okay, I know I'm gonna go off that particular word to their reaction, then back to the the you know, the person who's speaking, for example. It's dizzying up. Yeah. And often that comes from instinct first, like or often what Adam the Newport Bearer, who was phenomenally talented DP who's shot this series. He and and and season two, he would he would often like let okay, just go with your instincts on this first rehearsal, then we'll fine-tune it and go, Okay, that wasn't nice. That didn't quite land right or whatever. And then we would massage that. You know what mean? So that then it felt like it was still still feeling a little organic. Yeah, it wasn't sort of like, okay, you know, it ends up being too mechanical if it's too Absolutely. Yeah. and I don't I don't know if you find this with these big shots where you're where you've got so many pieces of dialogue. There are two things that it makes me think of. One is like, you know, it'll hopefully you're getting it on take one, but as you're learning it and you're getting better and better, and then you're like finally get it, and then they come in and go, you know, at this point, yeah, don't be over here, be over here. And you're like, god, now I gotta sort of like reorganize all the other pieces around it. So that's always To me that's always like, wow, okay. All right, let me take a minute. But then the other thing is is it it does I don't know if you have this, but I find that like when I when I do these big winners, somewhere around a you know, five, six, seven takes in, when you're really starting to nail it and whatever, it has that tendency to become a little mechanical and just going, Okay, I'm I'm over here and now I know I'm gonna go here and now I'm gonna so you almost have to like you have to you have to trip it up a little bit to get back to that feel, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And also I think, you know, again, you know, I would like to, you know, highlight that, you know, instinct is so important to go off and feel feel the scene and get into the emotional tempo of the the dialogue and what what is going on. Cause then that let that guide you, even on like subtle push-ins or you know, where you you want to be a little wider to see the reaction of the other cast members. You know, it it it you kind of try and go through the mind of the audience. Okay, what are they what is what do you want to see, you know, and then let that guide you to adjust the camera based on that. And then then it doesn't feel so 'cause one one thing we try not to do is we don't want to bring too much attention to the camera. We want it to almost like feel like you're just an observer in the room and that you're part of the scene. You know, you're part of being there. And that's you know, that that's the feel that Seth and Evan wanna try and, you know, emulate in are there any sequences. Are there any specific rules that you guys follow as far as camera work? Is there anything that you don't do or anything that you know, are you like you never do, you know, I don't know, like extreme close ups or never do whatever. I don't know what it is, but or is it just whatever is right for the scene? Well, as you know, we or we we use one lens for the whole show, so it's all 21mm Master Prime and it's a a which is a you know incredible lens because you can go from a a close up to a nice beautiful white shot all within and without any real major distortion or whatever. But it's it's I like the simpleness of that as well and that it kind of makes you keep the camera work really honest because there's no like trickery of like, let's put a long lens on it, make it look beautiful. No, it's not like that. You've got to you've got to make the shot look interesting by your composition and framing and how you've stacked it up or how you've placed someone in the frame, you know. And that can sometimes be a challenge in certain scenes, especially if they're static, you know, or or the actors are static. So w often wanna not that we have a rule, but often we would try we try and create the blocking to then add some energy to the the scene. So there's you know so it doesn't because we don't always want it to just be a camera move or a we want it to also be led by the cam the op the sorry the from the actors led by the actors. Yeah. Yeah that's fantastic. That's that's great. so tell me about the the episode the wonder which everybody that's how I get introduced to the show because everybody was like you gotta see this you're gonna love this what a what a fun it just seems like it was such a it must have been, I mean it must it's huge, but it must have been absolutely a joy to work on. Yeah, it was. Look, we had we were very, very fortunate. They'd you know booked this house out the Silver Top in Silver Lake, and it was a you know incredibly beautifully photographic, you know, like it's such a great canvas to work with, you know, this incredible house. But we Had the ability to rehearse, you know, a bunch beforehand. I think like we had two rehearsal days before we even started shooting the first day, you know, of because it's two shots, right? We basically do it all as one shot all the way through. So we wanted to try and do the whole shot, the entire shot. as a one-up, so the light is the same. Yeah. And then we we then get say three, four goes at it in the in one night. So that's what we would try and do. Like we would try and and then we'd break up certain elements of it that we could then also stitch if we had to stitch. I see. okay good. We did it as we did do it as all a one one to many versions where we just did it as a one. And then we would then try and so then the light was consistent because we One thing that, you know, the whole story is about is that lights going down, they're about to you know this shot because yeah. So Adam had planned it out, he had, you know, he again like so accurately worked out, okay, these are the this is the window that we've got to shoot in. So if we rehearse, you know, umpteen times before that window, let's get it as close as we can to perfect. So by the time we start actually shooting in the in the time window that is good for light, we're we're up to speed, we've got all r got rid of all the mistakes or glitches or whatever, and we're right on. And and that includes all the background artists had to be on perfect timing. All the, you know, the other crew that we're filming that is also filming the actual movie, they have to be exactly in the right position. They have to be also on the right frame. All that. So it was a lot of coordinating to to make happen, not to mention the people who are trying to cut light so I don't get shadowed or, you know, like all these things that were all dancing around me for the entire shot, you know, which is it was insane. It was like a it was like a ballet, you know. It's a complete ballet. Well, and the other thing I I I mean, specific to that episode, but y you guys do so many big winners. Do you do you find that Like everybody just gets everybody just gets on board and it's like there's just this excitement of like, you know, it's almost like we're putting on a play, 'cause really actually you are there, but like nobody wants to drop the ball and everybody's like, No, we could do this or we could try, you know, and like everybody's just excited about it. That's that's the infectious part to me. Yes, definitely. And and look, I think Seth and Evan a genius in knowing the type of guest stars like Sarah Paulie is such a tremendous talent as a director and also as an actress herself. So they knew they had someone very good at doing that part. You know what I mean? So and we, you know, we were we were thankful to have Catherine O'Hara you know as one of the main you know characters in this in that s in that sh particular episode. It was such a perfect cast that were so in sync, so in tune with the the the timing that it it was literally like you were you were playing with this incredible orchestra of of you know in perfect positions and we all had to just do our part you know and be part of that so it was a really really greatly crafted Adam honestly has such an incredible understanding of what works from a shot comp you know shock blocking and crafting the shot to make it work and lighting it and knowing you know all of that just worked so seamlessly and that hence why you know he got all the accolades he did for absolutely completely well deserved. because you mentioned her I just have to ask you because I'm a complete fanboy is Catherine O'Hara just the funniest person in the entire world was she, I should say absolutely the incredible probably the mo most outstanding Actress I've ever worked with, as far as it doesn't surprise me. To be so kind on set, so well prepared. Like there was never a time when you're going, Catherine wasn't ready. And then when we were doing that first episode when we w walk into her house, you know, in episode one, she was she was on point first take. The very first take. She was absolutely perfect. And So that's where, you know, I was g going back to that story about John Seal being ready. You've got to be ready when you when they come out of their trailer and they're ready to to do that first take. You've got to have you've got to be at that level and ready to go. Because what if she does do the take that Seth and Evan like the most? You know, and that's the take is number one. And and often the the the rawness of the comedy also is best in the earlier takes because of the you know sure so yeah and she she because she's done this so long and for s it's been part of her life for so long doing comedic roles she's she is she she's has the ability to keep it fresh even on the 20th take but what I'm saying is she's coming out of the gates straight away absolutely brilliant and it was a real pleasure working with her and also so generous in her her her love for her craft, you know. And you that makes me so happy to hear. well it's such a such an unbelievable loss. But she was I I've been a fan of hers going way, way back and and it's so it's so wonderful that I think she finally got all the accolades that she deserves so much, you know, in these these last couple of years and so many different things. the other person who who I is on the show who I love is Katherine Hahn. I did a show with her years ago and she's just so talented and so wonderful. but yeah it's it just sounds like a complete playground across the board. Yeah, and she's a real knockout in she's really stepped up even more on this season. Yeah. Catherine Hahn, and it's really quite a knockout in this season. She's fantastic. She's gonna get even bigger and bigger and better and more amazing than that's great. That's great. Well did you know that this was the big one show when you signed on to it, or was that a surprise? No, I mean I I Actually it's a good i interesting story about how I got involved in this show. because, you know, at first I was like, do I want to do you know, firstly, you know, I hadn't done much T V series work before. little bits and pieces. I'd done a little bit of Ozark and a bit of you know, so it was this this concept of doing a show, but but I was really attracted to one working with Adam because I'd, you know, heard a lot about how amazingly up and you know, like he was really a new kind of visionary of how you know how he's sort of treats cinematography. And I really liked the excitement of working with someone that young and also that talented. as well as it was shooting in town to be fair and who doesn't want to shoot something in Hollywood where you're you know literally driving 10 minutes to get to work. so that was a big attraction. I had to be honest about that. But and also, you know, look I once I started to see the nature of what they were trying to achieve, because they were thinking in the first first the idea of it, or the first iteration of the show, they were thinking, well maybe it's just more Birdman style. Maybe it's it's all steady camp. You know, maybe it's all you know, a moving camera, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's all gonna be handheld. It might be, you know, steady camera. It might be handheld, but it might also be something else. After we did some more testing on these various devices, Adam and and Seth Rogan and Evan Goldberg kind of landed with the honesty of and the direct feeling of what handheld looks like on the shoulder. And you know, even when I had it in gunner mode or whatever, they'd go, Can you get it back on your shoulder? Because it looks so much better. really? Yeah. There is something intrinsically appealing with the camera when it's connected to your It's grounded. It has a it has a reality to it almost. Yeah. Whereas no matter what you do and what those other modes, there's always a little bit of like floaty, bouncy something or other that's not correct. It doesn't feel the same. And it doesn't feel like observational. Whereas when a camera's on your shoulder, It really is an observation. You know, the camera feels like a human. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't it doesn't feel like this other mechanical device that you're sticking it onto. And look, I also think to be fair, the steady cam is also a a beautiful tool to give you that without all the shake and all the other stuff. But the they also felt that the energy that is infused in handheld. brings a certain life to the to the the and motion the the whole combination of the the energy that you're creating through that kineticness of the the camera as well as the fact that you know it does allow you to be in a space with the actors that's a smaller footprint, you know, than having, you know, as you know with Steady Cam, you you take up a lot more space. Yeah. Everything else. And any other device, whether it's a crane or whatever, you know. Yeah. Well the other thing about the the the handheld in that is is you know, he's on the verge of like losing it at any given moment and tr just basically trying to hang on and figure it out. So it has that it adds to that of this like this is all gonna go off the rails at any g you know, I mean it I think that that it adds to the tension of it. what what's working with Scorsese as an actor like? He was he was we were all Speak about nerves, that was a nervous day. I I think everyone was on edge that day. Come on. They were like we even brought in the second camera 'cause we thought what if you you know, we need to get another angle. Well you discarded. Not that that was gonna be that wasn't gonna be part of the a you know, the the language of how you shot it, but yeah, but they had it standing by just in case. But he was he was we were all so nervous and we were like and I I think it was the first day I actually kind of lost it with some of the crew, which I totally regret and I'm you know apologize profusely to the crew. you know, I you know we were shooting at the Root Roosevelt Hotel in Hollywood and there's only one little tiny elevator to get all the equipment up to the top penthouse. And we were shooting the penthouse of the the Roosevelt and it was this this insane thing where you know you want everything to be perfect so that you can, you know start rehearsing and get the light right and everything. So by the time Martin comes in, we're on our game. Again, coming back to what we're saying. but this this infamous camera was nowhere and I I was getting like, Hey guys, Martin's gonna be here in like half an hour. Like we've got to get you know Yeah. So but that was when I was getting a little freaked out because I just didn't want to, you know, be that person who's going we're still waiting on the camera, sir, sorry. It's like man. But but no, but it w i it was all great in the end. He was actually really cool. You know, you gotta remember he's shot a gazillion films. So like he's he's the ultimate craftsman in the in or master master of yeah of cinema, you know. So he he thir f first thought when we were blocking it with the iPad, he thought we were gonna shoot it with the iPad and it was quite funny. He said, no, no, we've actually got a real camera, you know. It's like, what did I sign up for? that's great. Because he went like put two and two together. It says, like, do you ship whole show on the iPad? Because it's an Apple show. Yeah. there you go. There's that too. wow. That's that's that's great. Well, what a what a what a what a treat that show must be. and I'm hoping I I think I asked you at one point, I'm hoping maybe you'll do a breakdown of the one-or episode for us for the for the for the website, which would be great to discuss that. I wanna ask you, I I mentioned it ahead of time. five or a handful of show of movies that you think that any any up and coming camera operator should see, or or or five that that that are of your favorites? Yeah, that's a good that's a good question. I yeah, I mentioned it before. I I'm a really big fan of Talent of Mr. Ripley, only because it it tells story at the camera is so beautifully Placed. It's so it's it's invisible. I love when that camera just turns into an invisible thing that you don't even you don't notice the the camera work or the cinematography, it just becomes one as a story. And I think that's something that I learned so well from John Seal with and many other c cam wonderful cameramen, is that you know, just try and yeah, but getting back to the films that I love, I love that film. you know, I even go back to Vic Vic Victor Victoria, you know, Bob Foss's movie, which is like a classic, absolute classic for, you know, showing perspective and coming outside of it. Dr. Chivago, I think is absolutely a masterful film. Beautiful. you know, that's a again a lesson in beautiful camera work and so elegant. And then the other amazing film The Road to Perdition was by Conrad Hall, which I think he was one of the greatest cinematographers of of his time. Yeah. and very, very considered, I noticed with all his films, where he places the camera and how he how it how it is, you know, like what lens and you know, everything was so well considered. I love loved watching his films and I think any of them are a a masterclass in How to shoot absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, and and Scott Sakamoto did amazing work on that as the operator. that's yeah, and Scott masterclass. Yeah, and Scott is an you know, one of my all time favorite mentors and along with, you know, Chris Harhoff and and they're wonderful, wonderful human beings that are always so encouraging and and and they're still doing Amazing stuff now. You know, it's increasing. Absolutely. No question. Well well, Mark, this has really been a pleasure. It's it's been great talking to you, especially I I always enjoy talking to interesting people that I haven't met before because it's like, wow, there's there's so many there's so much to learn and there's so many stories there. It's it's it's great. And congrats if I didn't say it before on the SOC Award for sort of raising the bar for all of us. That's always that's always a plus. I'm gonna leave you with the question that I leave everybody with and you can take us out. Advice for someone getting into the business today on how to succeed and or something that you learned along the way that you wish you knew early on. Yeah, I mean I would say use your hunger to drive you to ask the difficult questions and don't be afraid to fail. That's the best thing I could say. You wanna don't be afraid to fail. Don't be afraid to do something that you you're not sure whether you're gonna be any good at or but just give it a tr give it a crack as I say and learn from that. But one of the other things that I learned early on, and I was lucky to come up through film where you're watching dailies every, you know, after you've shot something each day in the lunch break or at the end of the day, we'd be watching you know film dailies, is try and look at these stuff that you've done the day before, you know, from the day before, or get time to watch dailies and study what you could have done better or what went wrong. Cause then if you just keep going from day to day and not you know, seeing what you've actually done, then you're not gonna really learn from those mistakes. So I would highly recommend that. And I know it's a it's a ritual that we're not doing anymore, which is a sad thing. I remember even, you know, on Mad Max Fury Road, we had a long van ride back from set to to our accommodation. You know, it was about an hour hour and a half to get back, usually about hour and half. And I was always in charge of the iPad because it back, you know, we didn't have projection obviously in the middle of the desert. So we had an iPad at least, but we'd watch the rushes from the day before. And I was in charge of like, you know, going through it. And and John Seal would sit next to me and we'd go through it. And he would give me notes on hey, you could have been a little tighter there or you could have been, you know. And it was this wonderful thing where At the end of the day, we could debrief over the shots of the previous day and then you know go over those things. So that's one of the valuable lessons I would pass on to someone starting out is to really, you know, try and get someone that can go through and watch the dailies that you're doing and what you're and what you can learn from that. And generally, if you can work do it with someone who's what your mentor or the DP or the you know, that all is always going to be incredible value. Cause that's what it used to be, that we would sit around in a room and that's what would happen, you know. and and the other thing is just also use your instinct. Like try and be guided by your instinct and so then you become your own operator. Don't try and be, you know, Scott Sakamoto or don't try and be Chris Half or me or you know someone else. It's like you want to be s your own composer and craftsman in your own and have your own sort of flavor if you like. And that's within the boundaries of what the DP's wanting to do and the director's wanting to do, but still bring some level of your own flavor that is something that's unique and and that comes from your heart that you've brought from your life experience. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.