Dave C: Hey everybody, Danny Brown here, creator of the Knucklepuck, and we at Knucklepuck Camera are proud supporters of this episode of The OP. The Knucklepuck is a camera accessory loved by operators and camera assistants alike that allows the operator to pan and tilt with precision and ease. Check it out at knucklepuckcamera.com and make sure to follow us on Instagram at KnucklepuckCamera. The following podcast was recorded in September of 2023. Enjoy. On today's episode, we'll talk about how to know when the shot is good enough, Elvis. Hidden figures, creating space for your actors, and of course, hoping they don't realize you don't know what you're doing. Just a little bit of business before we start. There may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website, theop.io, is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done. The musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Lock it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Victor 30 Echo Tech Team. Hey Mark, Mark. Camera set. Background in action. Hello and welcome back to the OP, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I'm Dave Komitis, your host, and we are one more time here in the Panavision Woodland Hills Theater, because it sounds better than the back of the camera truck at lunch, only slightly better, but a little better. ⁓ Really excited today to have a friend, a great operator, steady camera operator, a camera operator, ⁓ Jason Elson. some of Jason's credits, but not not all of them by any means. Black Panther, Black Panther Wak Wakanda Forever, Elvis, Mulan, True Detective, Hidden Figures, Mortal Kombat, and Mortal Kombat 2, I think, right now. ⁓ I didn't know this. He won the 2009 Emerging Cinematographer Award from Local 600 for ⁓ the movie Aftermath. And in two thousand fourteen he was an Emmy winner ⁓ for the documentary cinematography of ⁓ show called One Life. He has had SOC camera operator of the year nominations for Mulan and Elvis. ⁓ is just a great operator and I'm really excited to have you here. ⁓ thanks, Dave. It's ⁓ geez. ⁓ yeah, it's a real real honor to be here, mate. I I I think it's ⁓ Yeah, I think this is really great what you're doing. It's pretty cool, I have to say. And and you know what it's funny, this is definitely one of those situations where I I sit down with people and I'm like, this is more than I've talked to someone 'cause we don't ever sit down and talk. Like I'll see you at like the SOC Awards or something like that. Maybe we talk for ten minutes with our wives there while we're having a drink or whatever. But like you know, 'cause especially steady cam operas, we don't we we sort of pass in the night, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. It's rarely, you know, an occasion where we're You know, kind of on the same same project together. I had I had Guy B in here and who did ER before me. And it's funny 'cause we have so much in common. Yeah. But we probably had never talked more than fifteen minutes. Yeah, right. We sat down and talked for two hours and it was hysterical. We had a blast. That's so great. So tell me your story. How'd you get here? Yeah, I mean I started off in T V News in Adelaide, Australia and ⁓ you're from Australia. ⁓ We kind of it was like you were not quite the sound recorders, but you would sort of like carry this pack. You know, they back in the day we'd you the camera would would use the it was like a an old tube camera and it was kind of attached, you know, with an umbilical cord and with the pack and you'd slap the pack. ⁓ so it was like the recorder brain. The recorder brain, exactly. And then you'd also have the mic plugged into it and you'd you'd kind of wave that around. ⁓ It's a little different than an iPhone. A little different than an iPhone. Yeah, covering news events in Adelaide, which is a you know, quite a small city. And then from there you got the opportunity to if you wanted to progress to become in, you know, a camera operator or a news camera operator was to kind of work night shifts. So you'd do these kind of ten day stints of night shift where you just Covered the worst of the worst. Wow. Because because the the people who knew what they were doing didn't want to do nothing. No way. Yeah. And go out and find the news. Yeah, and you'd you'd go out and How old were you at this time? ⁓ Eighteen. Eighteen. Well that's pretty that must have been wild. Yeah, it was pretty crazy. Wow. And were you going out and doing like were you here at the or or was it just purely just sort of Yeah. So depending on what it was, i if it was a major event then you would you would phone it in and they'd either get, you know, the on call reporter up to go out if it was, you know, something really Or you mean you'd call them up and hey, there's a fire going on at blah blah blah. Well something like that, you'd just kind of go and do it. You knew what you'd just go and cover as in you'd film it and then the next day they'd do a voiceover to it. Or they'd go there and the reporter would go there and and ⁓ do a stand up or But you were a one man band, basically. One man band. Wow. That's wild. Yeah, yeah. I remember my she's funny, I remember first my first night shift, there was a fire And I remember being so I I mean I was just so wound up and and and ⁓ stressing and I you know, God am I gonna mess this up. So I remember I remember sort of like getting out of the car with the camera and and and running and I tripped over this fire hose, you know, just in haste. You know, anyway. It was ⁓ Did you trust the camera or No I didn't. I didn't. I think I must have I I know I went down, but Everything was all right, but God I was embarrassed. ⁓ you all these slight barriers. Do you think that some of those instincts that you probably got from there of like filming something but keeping an eye out for whatever app is open have have pushed forward to this day? Absolutely. Yeah. I think a lo you know, and then, you know, from there I you know, I was in T V News in Adelaide for for about five years and then I got an opportunity to go work for a production company in Singapore. So I was based in Singapore working for this production company that basically Did a lot of news and current affairs around Southeast Asia. So Singapore was ⁓ a kind of springboard into those areas. So we would do a lot for BBC, we'd do a lot for NBC Dateline, CBS sixty minutes, you know, covering news and current affairs. Wow. ⁓ in in the region. Yeah, it's pretty wild. And are you always basically getting a call, you gotta jump on a plane with your gear and go to wherever Exactly. Yeah, it's exactly that's exactly how And you're like twenty two or or whatever it is. Yeah you're absolutely right. I moved there I moved there when I was twenty one and it's probably around twenty twenty one, twenty two. Yeah very good. Yeah. Yeah, I know it was back then it was yeah it was crazy, you know, it was and and this was what, nineteen eighties? Yeah, this would have been Ninety five. I was there ninety five to two thousand. Wow. Moved to the US in two thousand. Wow, wild. So five years, yeah, five years ⁓ Southeast Asia and and it was amazing. It was there just wasn't in Adelaide where I came from, I mean I always wanted to pursue a career in in narrative work, but there just wasn't a lot of opportunities there. I remember going out on a film set Black Beauty and and just doing kind of work experience. to just go and watch and learn and see if that was something that I I really did want to pursue. Because you know, my I kind of backtracking a little bit is ⁓ my dad was a stills photographer, so I was I was brought up with you know, with a very strong influence of of photography. Did he develop himself? He did. Then w d were like in the dark room with him? Yeah, absolutely. It's so funny 'cause I was too and there's there are a number of operators that I've talked to. Yeah. Who's who's usually their dad, but I should say their parents, but ⁓ tend to be the dad, I think. w were were on some level still photographers and they can remember being in the dark room. And I know for a fact that there's inherent ideas of framing that I sort of have from back then. I I don't remember ⁓ specifically, but I know just wha I remember watching the pictures develop and sort of Like it was this magic of seeing what the picture was. That's really interesting, Dave. That's really interesting. That that's 'cause those are your formative years, right? Absolutely. You're in the dark room with your dad and there's all this yeah, it's yeah. There's no question. Yeah, so the so the school I went to offered photography as a a kind of side course, a elective ⁓ course, if you will. And so the school had a dark room and I just at lunchtime and stuff like that would just kinda bury myself in the in the dark room and you know having the background with dad is I I just loved it, you know. So I just would always be out taking photos and you know, developing stuff at school and yeah, it was It's funny because when I talk to students now or or even mentoring people or whatever, and they'll say, Well like how do I, you know, what how do I I I I'm not operating, how do I learn to be an operator or whatever? And I go You got a phone. Go take pictures with your phone, you know? And just frame things and then crop it and see what the story tells and whatever. Or if if you if you have a D SLR and you have a zoom lens, like shoot it wide, shoot it tight, shoot it you know, and and 'cause I think all that stuff just it seeps into you, right? You know? ⁓ absolutely. You don't even realize it. No. Yeah. No. And yeah, I just had a I had a this kind of insatiable passion for kind of taking photos and and then And I never really thought about it until you said that just now, but d the developing process and just watching these images come to life, 'cause it's not like these days where, you know, it it's instant. You know, you take the picture, you can look at it, you can you know, it was a whole thing. Is you you'd you would have the the film, the stills camera, you would have a light meter. Yeah. and yeah, it's I just remember why like Sitting there and and moving that tray back and forth. Yeah. I don't even know what the hell it was 'cause my dad did it and I never completely understood it. I could never do it on my own. But I just remember it slowly watching it like come to life, sort of, right? Yeah, absolutely. And you were like, ⁓ that's like or you know, or like you know, you do one and like be a one of the family and like my half of my eye would be closed to be you know, to ⁓ that's not gonna do another one or whatever, you know. Yeah. Popping the popping the can of film in the dark and you know totally. Yeah, those were good that was good stuff. Were you into films back then? Were you like a film nut? No, that probably c ⁓ well I was. I mean you know, my my dad worked with Dean Semler at the ⁓ at the T V station. Dad was in stills whereas Dean was a news cameraman at T. Dean Semler was a news cameraman. Yeah, yeah. Dean Semler, great cinematographer. Absolutely. ⁓ but apparently hadn't quite hit it then. Or maybe his news stuff was fentanyl. I think, you know, watching the first Mad Max Road Warrior and just being blown away by it. And there was knowing that there was this kind of connection to this person of going, you know what, I like doing this. Gosh, that person's done that. Yeah. And ⁓ I think that's what really kind of triggered it for me. Was it it's interesting you bring that up. What was When Mad Max came out as an Australian, was that like a huge 'cause I don't know whether there were big movies before that, I'm sure there were some, but that was like a massive movie. Was that like as an Australian was there sort of like, Yeah, we're on the map kind of thing? I don't know. I just don't know back then if I was mature enough to have you know have an opinion on that. I was just like this thing is just so cool. No, it was just sick. I wanna do that. Yeah, yeah, it's exactly right. I want be a part of that. Yeah, and now that you're older you're like, wait, we're gonna do what? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't wanna do that. That's pretty cool. So w so what'd you do after the five years you so you moved the United States after the five years in Singapore? Correct. And and you hadn't really done narrative stuff yet other than No, I hadn't. And and I'll I'll backtrack again a little bit 'cause when I was in Singapore during those five years, the owner of the company bought a steady cam. So we had one of the only steady cams in the region. Really? Yeah. So they sent me out to do the Rockport main workshop in ninety eight. The Steady Cam workshop that was who who taught it? Paul Taylor. Paul Taylor. I remember Paul Taylor. Yeah. Yeah, Paul Taylor is a great guy. Heard from them in forever. Yeah. Rockport's one of those big it's there's a couple of big study camp courses in Rockport. I'm not sure if it's still going. I don't know. But it wasn't a study cam thing actually. It was like they had photoc photographic and I mean it was like a film workshops. Yeah, film workshops. And one of them was study cam. Yeah. But ⁓ yeah, those are legendary. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember where there were there other big like people have gone on to become other big operators in that class? Like people you people you keep in touch with or you don't remember? No, I honestly I don't I don't really think I don't really remember because I I think, you know, I I did the course and then I went back to Singapore. Sure. So you sort of st and it was the pre-internet, so it wasn't like you were in letters to each other. Right, right. I actually think it was just we're just getting internet. Yeah. But that's pretty cool. So they they basically said you're the guy who's going to do this, we'll go send you to get right. And I don't think at that point they knew in what capacity they were going to use the tool. It was, I think the Got the own the company had an opportunity to buy a steady cam from another company that was dissolving or something like that. So it's like, okay, well I'm gonna snap this thing up. Get the you know, get Jason to learn how to use it and we'll see what comes of it. Sure. So for me I was you know, went into the course and was just ⁓ this this is just for me. This is So you basically tripped into it though. It wasn't like you wanted to be a steady cam operator and then this opportunity came up, this thing just fell ⁓ fell in the door for you. ⁓ I mean I was familiar with the tool and I I like the idea of it. I just didn't know enough about it. Yeah. And as I've said before on other podcasts, it wasn't it wasn't like you went to the we sell steady cam shop. Right. Getting a steady cam was not an easy thing back then. Right. It wasn't it was expensive. There was another camera operator in Australia and I remember, you know, when I was trying to before I moved to Singapore and I was trying to figure out this this path of of narrative, of going out to and it's this has just jogged my memory, of you know, he would do a lot of commercials. Okay. And I remember he had one of the very early steady hams. And I remember going out with him and watching him and going, Okay. This is what I wanna do. This is I wanna Yeah. somehow figure out a way to get into this. And then when I was in Singapore and then that opportunity presented itself was was a a great comment. Yeah, with me it was a guy named Bob Fisk in New York who by the way wa technically speaking wasn't a steady cam operator. He showed up on this this this really I mean no budget feature that I was assisting on and he had a steady cam, quote unquote, that was made out of ⁓ a paint pole. that you know you could you could tighten and loose to make it longer. And ⁓ the r the the wireless ⁓ follow focus was a return mechanism from a V C R he was like he was like ⁓ what's the guy's name from Back to the Future, the Mad Scientist, ⁓ whatever his name is anyway. But he was kinda like him. He would just make stuff. And the the the vest was made out of old paint buckets and whatever. But it but it actually worked. I mean it probably didn't work as good as a great study cam, but it worked and I was like I don't know what that thing is, but I want to do that. Right, right, right. Yeah, I want to be part of that. Same thing. I was like that's Totally cool. I remember he walked across like a riverbed, you know, a a stream. Right. And I was like, That's really cool. Right. Right. Yeah. So that's that's g I but I think a lot of people have that as you just see it and you go, ⁓ that's that's cool. It was just cool. Yeah. It was cool and it was you know, kind of seeing what it could do and the opportunities it enabled was pretty awesome. That's great. Yeah. So so you took the course and went back to Yeah, I took the course, went back to the course it was in ninety eight and then I took the course, went back to Singapore and you know, I just every day I wasn't I you know, we were still doing news and current affairs and and you know, documentaries and I every day I could put it on as I'd put it on and then we would do these kind of corporate and commercial work and and I'd use it a lot in that. I'd just sort of like put it on and we'd just, you know, do a corporate video and and steady camp. And then there was a film rental place in Singapore and I remember going there as often as I could. There was a this was with a pro it was a Provid. So ⁓ it was a st ⁓ s it was I don't know if it was Tiffinate though. don't think it was still cinema products or whatever. Smaller rigs, exactly. And I remember going to the rental house and and and it mounting ⁓ you know an SR sixteen onto it and and seeing if that could work. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And So where did where did you move to you moved to you moved here in two thousand, right? Right. So I moved to yeah, I moved to Where'd you move to? I moved to LA. I moved to LA in two thousand. ⁓ I had an opportunity with one of the BBC correspondents that I'd worked with in Southeast Asia basically came up here to head up the LA Bureau of the So you're sort of still in the family a little bit. You know, it's like the group, yeah. Completely 'cause there was no other way I was gonna get sponsored or or ⁓ you gotta th yeah, that's right. You gotta worry about like visas and all that. Right. So I knew that I wanted to pursue this career in narrative, but it was how do I make it happen? Yeah, yeah. And that was an opportunity that that I sort of like jumped on to go, all right, well look I'll I'll get there, do that. It's you know, will afford me to to pay the bills while I can then, you know, when I'm not working, I can then go off and do short films and just Which which is what we all did actually. And ⁓ you know, I like to tell people ⁓ there was a year after I bought my study cam, which was a model one. It was serial number twenty three, so it was like the oldest steady cam you could get. They made twenty five when they first did ⁓ I delivered prosthetic hips to hospitals around Los Angeles for a year to make money so that on the weekends I could do short films and music videos and figure out how to do it. And I think it it's funny there though, like I I think that people who look at, you know, established operators like yourself, they don't realize that there was that time where it's like, nah, I look I worked at Kentucky Fried Chicken to make money, you know, pay my rent. And it's and there And there's nothing wrong with that 'cause you did what you had to do to get where you had to go, you know. You're absolutely right. And I think at the core of it all though is 'cause you know, it was it was tough, I'm sure it was tough for you as well, all all all of that stuff. But I think you could not th there was just such a passion for storytelling and a passion to be in this industry, to to make films, to be a part of that. And for me it was just this insatiable hunger that I I I just would pursue. It doesn't make a difference what I have to do to go. It doesn't make a difference. And I think there's actually something beneficial to it not just being handed to you and and Los Angeles going, ⁓ Jason Elson's moved here. Let's just give him a big, you know, a job and a big feature. It's like that you've you've actually like sweated and toiled to get there that it's that much sweeter when you actually get that opportunity because it took quite a while to obviously build a reel up meet people. What w what were you doing with this is so this is like two thousand and two, two thousand and one, something like that? Yeah. Yeah. So this is pre is this pre internet? No, no. Look I I wanna say we I just got an email address in Singapore before I left. So I think around. But so how did you how'd you find jobs? Who'd how'd you connect with people? Because you didn't you didn't even know people socially when you got here. I didn't. So what I would do is I'd go to the film schools and put a a a flyer up. And you ha did you brought the study cam with you or or did you have a steady cam at that point? No. I was Renting one from ⁓ Was it Dennis Lane? Was that his Buffalo Den? There was also Derek Whitehouse, but he sold stuff. Yeah, I don't think it was. Dennis Lane sounds familiar, I can't. I think it was Dennis Lane. Okay. So basically you'd get a job and you'd go, I need two hundred dollars to rent the equipment. Exactly, exactly. And I'd say, Hey, you know, I I've got this I'm building up my real would you accept this as it's not I'm not making money off of it? It's just to cover the bills. Cover the bills, yeah. That's cool. So you're just doing short films on weekends, AFI, UCLA, USC, whatever. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Still a valid way to do it, by the way. Yeah. And I also had there was still the Dean Semler contact. ⁓ so the so you you sort of knew him on a level. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. By then Dean Semler was a big I mean he'd hit Massive. ⁓ yeah. Massive. He wasn't going back and doing news stuff on the weekends. He was not. He was not. He was not. No. and So I would every year I'd call him and I would write him ⁓ I would write him a long email of just to say, Hey, this is what I've been doing. You know, I was just I really wanted to get in there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I so I I just kept plugging away at him and he was so gracious with his time and just such Was he living out here or was he living? No, he was living here. So he'd moved Yeah, he he he was here. So ⁓ That's cool. just you know, I I I got a lot of advice and another contact I had was Josh Bleibtrail. Yeah, why do I know his second unit DP who's just a wonderful, wonderful And you met him on a short term? I met him 'cause his brother was a news cameraman based out of Bangkok. So we would often in in the region would would cross paths. So you know, I was kind of planning this sea back then of of, you know, ha these kind of degrees of separation and and how can I try and make this happen. So Josh was another contact that I had and yeah, and then also I got in touch with Andrew Rollins and and Andrew Rollins, ⁓ I I can't speak Great now DP. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who basically mentored me to sort of like help get me? Did you know him from Australia or you didn't know? I did not. So, you know, we kind of fast forward a little bit and I I'd saved up enough money and I'm like, okay, I'm I'm just I'm going for this now. I'm going to do documentary and at this at this point as well I'd I'd done ⁓ you know, a lot of natural history documentary work which I I thoroughly enjoyed and I felt that when this Emerging Cinematographers Award with this little short film called Aftermath came out, I felt like okay and the the the the greater documentary that it was basically it was part of a documentary that was a series of shorts. Okay. So basically it w it was a longer movie and it w this was a piece of It was a longer exactly it was a longer documentary that was nominated for an Oscar. Gotcha. Okay. So it was called Operation Homecoming was the the name of the And you shot one part of it. Documentary. I should shot the whole documentary. ⁓ really? But this was like a vignette. Yeah, I see. That sat on it. That I thought was pretty cool and it was as a standalone. Yeah. And so Yeah, and I felt at that point that, you know, with the documentary winning the Oscar and I'd I'd by this point I'd been kind of in that field for quite a while and I felt like if I don't do this now Do do which? Just kind of go all in. Steady camp. Like I I gotta commit, I gotta buy one and I've gotta buy one, I've gotta you know all all this stuff. So I did you remember how much it cost you? Ballpark? No, I don't. Did you buy a new rig or you a new rig? I bought a new rig. You bought a new rig? I bought a new rig, but I also remember going into another strike straight after I bought it. ⁓ God. Yeah. Yeah, but a new rig back then was like I mean, at least sixty grand. Yeah. I it was it was a lot of money, which which yeah, it was a lot of money. Yeah, I think it w it was a combination of of of money I'd saved and you know, we'd bought a place here. So I think we kind of leverage that. You know, to figure it out. But the point being the reason I bring it up is for anybody who doesn't know it's it's it's planting your flag like it y you don't you don't really just do that and then go, yeah, I don't want to do this. No. No. And I knew I knew at this point that I I I I you know, I I'm gonna give it a go. And I always knew in the back of my mind that and even when I moved to the US and all of that, that if all else fails I got a bed at home. With my mum and dad. You know? And I just that was always in the back of my mind going going, you know what, take the risk. Just go for it, you young But sometimes you gotta jump off the Sometimes you gotta sometimes Do you remember when you got your first rig? When you like the day you got it? I do. I picked it up in Vegas actually to save paying the tax. Of course you did. ⁓ I ⁓ I I waited a week until I waited I waited and ⁓ I was gonna buy my first new rig, which was a pro. Yeah. And ⁓ I I I I think I was going to a movie in Texas and I wanted it for the movie, but then I did the math and I was like, ⁓ I'll save like a thousand dollars in Texas taxes if I have it sent there. Right. So I waited a week or so or whatever it was. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's so great. ⁓ I love it. But yeah, but I don't I don't know if I I just remember opening up the case the first time and just being like I could it was I mean it was it It was like it was like ⁓ the Tarantino movie with the light coming out of the game and it was just I couldn't believe it. It was kind of unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. I know. And it was and then obviously all the other emotions that go with it, like, ⁓ gosh, now I've got this thing now completely. And you're like, I can't make any money with this. So what were you were you starting to do movies at that point? ⁓ No. No. No, I wasn't. ⁓ I I was still sort of like plugging it so what I was doing was I was plugging away at the shorts, yeah, building up the real. I would a Andrew Rollins again was was extremely gracious with his time and would you know, suggest me for things and I would keep doing basically each month I'd go, All right, what what do I need to cover my monthly expenses? And I would sort of like Delve back into the the world of news and current affairs to basically cover that. Yeah. And then go, I'm just gonna make myself available on the off chance that something comes up. Sure, sure. So then I got offered this ⁓ commercial that Andrew couldn't do, and it was with Bill Pope. Love Bill Pope. So yeah. So Bill Pope, big cinematographer, Matrix and So many Spider Man and who you name it. And I remember yeah, getting the opportunity to go out and do this and ⁓ Dave, I was so n I mean, I was a mess. I don't think I slept for like five days five nights. Bill Pope's a tough guy to work with. He demands he demands that people know what they're doing. Yeah, yeah. Bill doesn't suffer fools lightly. And and and I I was just like ⁓ my w and I remember saying to Andrew, I just I I was beside myself. I wasn't absolutely gave you a job with Bill Pope when you didn't know what you were doing. I know is either really cruel or really cruel. I know. I know. I was like, what have you done to me? anyway and and and to make matters worse is so I kind of tried to find out as much information about this commercial as I did not knowing Really how you go about doing that. Which of course, by the way, there's no information usually to find out. Because it's not like it's been well, we've been shooting for two months and we could tell you all. Right, right, exactly. And I remember I think I got sent the boards. Okay. And I r I remember seeing the boards of this eight foot giant strolling through a fairground. Okay. And you know, going, ⁓ my God, w how how am I gonna do this? I'm like five foot five. Like what are they gonna expect of me? And I remember I think I kind of maybe emailed Bill or or someone was like, Hi, it's ⁓ Jason, you know, you don't know I'm still I just wanna let you know that's what's the plan for this and It's like, no, no, no, no, we want it to be low and and have that, you know, that that pressure ⁓ I could do that. The thing that I like is that and I I'm just trying to think the last time I thought I saw Andrew Rollins, Andrew's not six seven. I mean he's he's not small, but he's like he's probably five ten or five eleven or something. I don't know what he is. So so ironically it it's not even like he's that much different. Right. But still the what you immediately do when you're not when you're new is you go, ⁓ I can't do it 'cause of this and I'm not gonna be able to do it 'cause of that Right. I still do that. I know I still feel I still do that. Had a massive imposter syndrome. I have the most massive imposter syndrome. So that's hysterical. So so you did that you did it okay on the We digressed. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, it went it went really well. And you know what? It's funny. So I remember it was a night shoot, and I remember the next morning I was flying out to Trinidad and Tobago to film frigate birds for a documentary? For BBC Life. Okay. And I remember you know, we'd finished the shots that I need to do probably was around eleven or twelve or something like that. You're saying after you got down there. Right, right, that night. And then I was flying out at something like six thirty the next morning. Yeah, I got you. Okay. Right. And and this was I think it was Santa Clarita or or or somewhere like that. But I wanted to stay 'cause I wanted to watch. I wanted to watch Bill. I wanted to watch the ⁓ so they were like we have two steady cam shots and you can go home because we've got the rest of the night. Right, we've got the rest of the night to to to finish it off. And I and I hung around. And I remember hanging around and getting back home to the apartment at at four in the morning and basically just pulling, you know, getting the steady cam cases up. The escalator, try not to wake my wife up. And then getting the other cases that I needed to sort of like go back downstairs and and get on a plane again. Get on plane without sleeping. Without sleeping. But that's what you did back then. You just wanted everything, you know? Just just couldn't get enough of it. Do you f you you find even though at this point that you're still sort of like I that you're an A camera operator now, so you're there the whole time, but do you still find that you're like, no, I just want to be involved and I just want to watch and I just want to see what other people do and ⁓ absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I think that I think that's part of the job requirement, right? That you are there, you want to it's observation, it's it's observing People observing personalities, you're constantly you know putting out fires and and not necessarily big fires, but it's like, ⁓ there's a water bottle over there, I've can't You know, there's no. But it's funny because the what thing that I think about is and it doesn't happen often, I don't know if y you're the same way. I'll go visit someone on set, like someone will go, Hey, we're shooting around the corner and I go sit and and I'll walk on and there'll be someone doing steady cam and I'll look at it and I'll be like, Wow, that's really cool. Because I don't really get to see people do something. Absolutely. And I'm like, Wow, he looks so smooth. Like and I'm thinking myself, No, but I know what he's doing. Like, why is this so impressive to me? And there's this part of me that like I'm I'm sure I'm guessing you're the same way. Like ⁓ you've probably been operating as long as I have, give or take, like thirty some years or whatever. And you know, you get jaded and you get sort of like, ⁓ god, I don't want to you know, we've been doing this twelve hours and wanna go home. Right. But then you see something and you're like, ⁓ this is a really cool job. Yeah, absolutely. This is really great. And and my hope is that that never completely goes I mean, it's not as much as it used to be, I'll be perfectly honest. Because like, you we're older and we're kids and et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, there's a there's another set of But there's still this point, again, like when I go on a set and I see a steady camera operator, I'm like, ⁓ that's really cool. Yeah. It's funny. I remember I remember you talking about this a while ago, with I think you went and saw something that that Andrew Mitchell was doing and you watched Andrew Mitchell, you know, doing Andrew Mitchell's such a great operator. He's such a great operator. And he's he's like he's like he's like pre he's like a precision operator. It's just it's incredible. And absolutely he he's a superlative operator. ⁓ superlative steady camera, ⁓ a camera operator. And I rem like his work on Glee is just incredible. And he would just because I would go in double ups Glee. Okay. Yeah. So it was really Maybe we'd see each other at lunch. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I remember one day, you know, I'd I'd finished or whatever and and going over to see Andrew and and watching him do one of these routines and like you said, just going, ⁓ my God. ⁓ you know what I bet it was? I like second season or third season, they were doing the like, you know, regional finales or whatever it was in the show at some major theater in Los Angeles. And I was teaching environmental ⁓ education ⁓ in my off off time at a school and they had a glee club and so I thought it'd be fun and I heard they were doing this 'cause ⁓ they had called me to do camera work, ⁓ do you know, C camera and I couldn't or whatever. Right. But I said, How many days are you there? And they told me and so I called up the production manager and I I know this is nuts, but ⁓ you know, I this is Glee Club and could I bring him and put him in the audience so they could watch this? 'Cause I think they think it was cool. Maybe I could get your your your musical director to come talk to him and she said, ⁓ yeah, totally so we went up there. But so I got to s sit up in the balcony and watch Andrew doing these huge numbers. Right. And it was just mesmerizing. I mean, because I you know, I think it's like anything. It's it's really, really hard and he makes it look Really, really easy 'cause he's done it so often and he has this shorthand, but it was it was really beautiful to watch. It was great. Yeah, he's he's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I that's it's it's it's funny because you do have that thing where it's just a lot of times it's just kinda boring and then it sparks up and you're like, ⁓ that's why I like this. This is really great. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. ⁓ every day, you know, you go to a a set and you drive up and there's all the trucks and all that. It still puts butterflies in my stomach. You you still get nervous when you start a show? ⁓ my God, I'm a hot mess. I am an absolute hot mess. I it still to this day, even if I go out and do a commercial, I probably won't, you know, I have a horrible night's sleep the night before. Really? Upset stomach. Yeah, I'm I'm I don't know, 'cause I I e again maybe it goes back to this imposter syndrome. I don't know. I just feel like Someone one day is gonna go, you know what? You've actually got no idea what you're doing. And I keep waiting for I keep 'cause I just find, you know, you go out and I'm I'm so passionate about what I love what I'm doing, but I I don't n i i there's no real right or wrong with what we do, is it? It's not like you can go, ⁓ that's th that shot's right. Well, why is the shot right? Yeah. 'Cause you might interpret It differently. I mean, you know, not to put too big a word on it, but there's no right and wrong in it. I mean there's wrong in that you just saw a light in there, that's a different thing. But even now that's not wrong because it's like, ⁓ well, paint that out. Paint it out. I know. So you start shooting the light. Exactly. Right? You're shooting the light. They're What are you doing? Well, but hang on the light show. They they there's the opera other B camera or C camera operator in shop. It's har i it's hard right now. Because and look I I it's funny because I fight I fight with people I mean ⁓ fight's not the right word, but I'll go, Let's move those carts. No, no, no, someone'll just paint it out. And actually the funny thing is the reason that I really do it is 'cause my wife is a visual effects artist. Right. And a lot of times I'll go in and she'll be like, Why didn't the camera operator just move the stuff from the window? That's interesting. You would move it and I'm like, Yeah, I would. Well, why didn't they move it? I was like, It's not my show. Sorry. Yeah. I'm sorry you have to paint it out. But it drives me nuts because it's sort of like and I know, by the way, from her that the budget it's like, here's the amount of money And then they go to the VFX department and they go, We have a hundred and twenty shots, can you do it for this amount of money? And VFX goes, it's a little bit of a stretch, but we can do it. And then they then they could go, ⁓ here are these eighty cleanup shots too. And VFX and there's no more money and and of course the VFX people like us like or they want to do a good job. So like then my wife's there, you know, taking taking stuff out of a a window b that could have been moved. Could just been moved. Like, you know, a camera assistant eating a sandwich or something like that. It's just yeah. you know, it's hard to clarify those rules of engagement. Like what ⁓ am I gonna fight? What am I gonna let go? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause you wanna you wanna do right by everyone. You wanna, you know, if you can enhance a shot or f you know, fix something like you said, like there's a l there's a light standing there, save that person having to pay. Well also there's a monetary thing down the road, which the the problem is on the on the set there, they're going, Well moving that is going to take five minutes and I don't want to take the five minutes And then you're like, Yeah, but if we're gonna compare it, compare the five minutes against the time well someone doesn't have the time to take it out at the end, so maybe the editor has to cut around it or or whatever. You know, so it's not it's not really you can't really compare it. So what I just sort of always try to go back to It's nineteen ninety and we have to do it the right way. And then if someone says we don't have time for that, I go, Okay, I tried and you know, and whatever. But ⁓ the other thing that bothers me a little bit is like I think it's really easy to get lazy. Yeah. Yeah. And go, Well, they'll just fix it. Yeah. And I'd just rather go, No, let me give you what what works. Yeah. Yeah. Or here's what I suggest and you can either shoot me down or or or we'll take a we'll take a minute to Yes. But but it is but you bring up a great point. It's like You have to decide when to fight those battles. And how far to fight those battles. And that yeah, that and that's all you that that goes across the board with, you know, do you want a second take? You know, d how ⁓ you know, I'm sure you're like me is every shot I do I dislike. ⁓ I've never done a good shot. I've done three good shots, but I could have done them better. Right, right. Yeah, no no no. And it's it's it's that of when do you ask to go again because There might have been a great actor performance. And I remember on Elvis, you know, Mandy would say to me, Mandy Walker, who you know. Won the Academy Award for Elvis? No. She was nominated. Nominated, nominated, yes. She won't something that she won. She won the ASC award? Yeah, and and you know, who was who was nominated for a bunch of other laundry list of of of awards. ⁓ And I remember Mandy, you know, I'd be like You know, I could have done that better, or I could have and she goes, you know, look, you've got to realise that what you think is a bad shot is actually a really good shot. Yeah. But isn't that what we do? Isn't that what we strive for is we We strive for the perfect shot. And it doesn't exist. It doesn't. Because no matter what, if if I if I go that shot was perfect, but I could have turned that corner faster. Right. If I do the exact same shot but turn the corner faster, I'm like, ⁓ that shot's really good. But if I just tilt it up a little I could've held that little bit of wall for like a few frames low. But it's interesting ⁓ that's So one of the things I ask a lot of people, I'll ask you right now is is but I think we were talking about it there is the the difference between a good operator and a great operator, I think is the great operator always thinks it can be better. You know? It's one of the things. I mean there's many things, but but I think there's also something in the great operator, and maybe this is what she was talking to, also knows when it can always be better, but it's absolutely a and I don't want to use good enough because that has a n sort of negative connotation, but There there's other realizes there's time and there's the actor doing it for a fifth time for no reason and and and and the big thing is to me, it it told the story. Yeah. And and that's that that's when the shot is perfect, right? You're you're you're absolutely right. And and you know, you might have had a good take take one, you might have blown take two, but the actor had an awesome performance and and how can you go back and say, y can we do one one more on, you know. Could you yell that again? Yeah, could you that that that emotional kind of, you know. And you're right, and it's it's kind of having the maturity to let go and go, Okay, ⁓ you know what? Yeah. I I'm not gonna this has all the elements they need. I'm not gonna rock the boat by just for my own Ego. Yeah. Yeah. Although it's weird because I don't know at least the little that I and I know you and I think I'm the same way. It's not my ego. It's not because I I I want people to look at it and go, Dave Comites is great. It's just because I want it to be right. It's my person sorry, let me rephrase phrase that my personal ego. ⁓ no, n by no means. But I don't even know if it's ego. I maybe it's ego. That's not the right word. I think it's just it's pride. Maybe it's your pri you what, you're right, Dave. Maybe it's ego. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. But it's it's also I I think it's You know, I know you're the same. It's 'cause we care. It is. It is. And ⁓ what I've what I've gotten to the point of is if we're doing a shot, you know, let's say it's a steady cam shot, so it's s it's just sort of me running around out there and not not the dog. Well dog group's probably on my back, but you know, I'm I'm in charge of the move and whatever. So it's all on me as far as that. If I saw off the set, I'll immediately put it down and go in and go, Hey, I just wanna make sure we're gonna do that again because I saw off the set and then they'll go, Okay, we absolut or they'll go, w we're not gonna use that part, we can paint it out, whatever their decision is. But what I've realized is is the ones that ⁓ that's its own thing. But the other ones that I'll tend to bring up are things that I'll go over and I'll go I know you're you're happy, but I just wanna throw this in here. If when I came around the corner I nicked that and pulled it in, I think it tells the story better. And I'm not and I'm not saying that as a way to pitch that. I'm saying that that's usually what ⁓ my decision now is Did I come up with a something that's a better way to tell the story and and I feel like I have an obligation to say, I think there's I think we're missing something that could be really great. Now it's your decision whether we do it or not. But but whereas if it's like there's a bobble or whatever, I sort of let it go now. Yeah. You know, I I think you've touched on something really important there, Dave, is that I think as operators we shouldn't be afraid to suggest things if we We've found something that maybe during the shot or before the shot that could potentially enhance the the shot. Is to speak up. You got to do it the right way. Yeah. So tell me about doing it the right way. Tell me about doing it the wrong way. 'Cause I think that's actually very valuable for people to hear. Well, I think you've got to be very kind of you I suppose feel like you've got a relations you know, there's there's some form of of of r well, you know what, maybe you don't need you know you don't need a relationship. 'Cause I I feel like I'm at the point in my career where if I feel strongly about something, I'm gonna bring it up. And it might be the wrong thing. Yeah. But if it's something I feel strongly about, I'll bring it up. And it might be the wrong thing, but what it might do is it might stir a different conversation. And it might then be like, well no, not that but but what about this and then it's like these goosebump moments where you have everyone collaborating and and being able to have a voice to to basically enhance the end product. Sure. So it might not be right. It might, you know be, you know, very wrong. But Does it create a a you know, we're we're all creatives. Does it does it help stimulate the conversation? It's interesting because it's not always about I came up with the idea. No. It's about when I'm bringing up Goddess to the next next level. And even if you bring it up and they go, No, no, no, this totally works and da da da da da so be it. Absolutely. Yeah, like no problem. So let me ask you this, because I think I know you've been here and I've been here too. You're doing a shot, like a hard shot. Right. Cut. Everybody erupts. They're screaming at the monitors. There's and you know that there is a problem. Like a problem that you need to go again. So there's that thing of you don't wanna scream across the set, you know, we're we're screwed, or you know, nobody move on or whatever. But you gotta go over and make that known. How do you how do you You mean they're screaming 'cause the shot was ⁓ my God, I can't bel it was so unbelievable. Jason, it was great and the actor it was great and this and everybody's convinced that they've just gotten it and you know that there is there is a fatal flaw in that shot that you're shocked that people didn't see. Do you know? Yeah. ⁓ you know, you you you w I I don't understand. ⁓ you didn't see when I actually panned over and saw all of Video Village and w you know, or or something like that. How do you handle I mean, do you just jump in and And own it and because Yeah, I think I people can normally tell by looking at my face. I get a pretty bad fucker face. Is that it? Yeah, it's like so that I don't have to say anything. It's like, ⁓ what's wrong? Well that's what that's what I mean is those ones when everybody's like so in their mindset. it's just one of those things to go, hey, yeah, great. Glad you liked it. But there was just something that I noticed, you know, during the shot. Are you okay with that? Do you do it quietly though? Do you make su do you go over so so it's quiet or do you 'cause there's s there's one the reason I ask you is I there's one rule of thought that you do it quietly so that, you know, the actor doesn't hear it and this is to make sure But there's another rule of thought that sometimes when it Whoa, whoa whoa wait a minute. No no no we didn't get that. You because the train is moving and you can see it, like, you know, they're taking down the sat and whatnot. Right. ⁓ Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's going home and yeah. There's both sides of that. There is. There is. Look, I think that's again, that is the kind of delicate balance ⁓ the you know, like I I think psychology is such a massive part of what we do of you know, reading personalities and being able to Somehow make things it's maybe a bit of a tangent, but making something feel like it's somebody else's idea You know what I mean? In a in i b by by but but serving your what you wanna what you wanna say. But but s saying it in a way that I suppose saying it in a way that you know, if it's something you feel strongly about or or you have an opinion about And you kind of want to get your own way with it of somehow trying to work out a way to ⁓ make the person think that it's their idea. No it seems sort of like no, i I mean what you're saying, it's a hundred percent of what I think it's a hundred percent of what we do. Jeff Haley had this really interesting thing. ⁓ yeah. I don't know how well you Jeff Haley, but Jeff Haley's literally like a rocket scientist. He's so I mean I felt half the time like I was looking up words and stuff like that. But no, he said he had this great thing and he said, No, it's literally like the director will come up to you and go, So I think what we need to do is the camera needs to be really, really high. And then what your response is is like, I love that idea. That is such a great idea because then what I can do is I can put the camera on the floor and be up and see him and he'd be so big and they're like, they're basking in the glow of whatever that they're like, yeah, that's great. And it was funny 'cause I heard it, I was like, that's kinda genius. And he goes, No, it works like eighty percent of the time. But there is the it is ⁓ you know, for anybody who has who's starting out in this, what they have to realize is that set has two hundred egos on it, right? And some of them are massive and and and your job is to sort of find a way between all of them to to get and I don't want to say w what you need. No. It's not but but you have to accomplish something and and and sometimes you have to sort of put it in and and ⁓ Guy B and I ⁓ had this discussion and it was funny because we realized that we we have a lot of the same catchphrases, which as opposed to going, you know, this is the way we should do it. It's more is there any value in looking at this? Would would this be something you might consider you know, there's this weird turning at question. I always will we'll we'll end something with question mark. Yeah. You know, like it's not well because then what you're doing is you're going, I really don't understand enough to know the answer to this. But what do you think? And you've basically just told them what you think. Empowered them to to Yeah. Yeah. But that's I mean, that's ⁓ something that it took me a long time to learn, you know? And ⁓ And it's not a it's not a sneaky trick, I think it's just psychology, like you said. It's psychology and it's and and by no means i i in an arrogant way, it's just trying to you know, y s sometimes to get your ideas out is is just sort of like going about it the right way and And it's well and it actually different strikes different folks, you No, totally. And and what I've found over the years, what it more and more of it comes down to, 'cause as I like teach a class or I mentor someone, I just realize everything is backwards engineering. Yeah. It's I gotta get down the road and there's all this stuff in the way, so let me figure it backwards from down the road and then I'll figure out how to start. Yeah. And nine times out of ten, I don't know how to start. But I go, that doesn't make any sense. Sometimes you just gotta start. Yeah. But it but it but if I start if I start at the end and pull it back, at some point something will connect and I'll go, ⁓ now now I understand how to do it. Or someone else will. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So you were talking about the psychology, it's a good it's a good point to sort of veer off into this. What about working with actors? Because you've worked with huge, huge actors. And the one thing I want to ask you specifically about, at least from what I read, is working on Elvis, what was what was his name? Austin Baller. Apparently that was like method to methods like end in that he was Elvis the whole time and and and was in character all the time and everything, to the point that it actually sounds like it almost was a little tough on his psyche from what I read. How do you how do you work as an operator with a method actor who he's Elvis in nineteen fifty six but you've got to talk as Jason Elson and twenty twenty two about, you know, hey, you gotta keep out of that light and I can't have you off the set here. Well how do you how do you navigate that? Well I look I I've I've gotta be honest that Austin is just the most gracious human being and you know, incredible actor. ⁓ I mean he he yeah, I mean he lived and breathed. Elvis. Yeah. He was also one of those actors that was on set every day just sitting, watching. I love that. So he was He knew everything that was going on. Okay. And he was also very approachable. Okay. So and he would be one of those people who's like, Well, how how can I help? How can I even though he's in that character, but he he Just out of curiosity when he would say that, mm w w would he be speaking as Elvis? Yeah. That's wild. Yeah, completely. That is wild. Completely. He was amazing in that. Amazing, right? Absolutely incredible. So okay, so he's but I I assumed he might have been, but but anyway, someone else you don't have to name them. But because we've all been there. And I don't and I don't mean to say if that was the case, I don't mean to say that they're a problem. I mean to say sort of how do you interact with them so you are not interfering with what they have to do. Right. Because that's so important. You're you're right. It's ⁓ Yeah 'cause ⁓ You he's on one spectrum and then you can have someone on the the other spectrum that that really doesn't want to be Well walk into the camera because the camera isn't in their world. I mean that that kind of thing, right? Right. We've all been there. Yeah. I with something like that like to start it off with just wondering if you might be able to help me out with something. Again a question and and help me. It's my my it's my problem, isn't It's my problem, it's not yours. I'm I'm an idiot. Yeah. I'm an absolute idiot. Can you help me out with something? Yep. That's my answer. Yep. No, I do that I do that all the time. It it it like you said, it goes back to what we were talking about before, is that it's then y yeah, you're right. Is that yeah, I'm ⁓ god, I'm so s I'm so stupid. ⁓ God, can you can you help me because you're so ma you can you help get me out of this dilemma that I'm in? Yeah. And the the funny thing is it's t saying it here it sounds like it's a disingenuous thing, but it's really not because the reality is we do need their help to do that. I mean, because they ⁓ you know, if they if they step two steps to the left we see off the stage and if they hit their mark they're there. So so then usually it becomes to me, you know, can you help me with this? And is there anything I can do To assist you with that. Like if we move this lamp over here, absolutely would that help you? I don't want to be and you don't want to deep dive too much. You do you don't want to sort of like ⁓ well we like you know yeah, 'cause with that and that that happens and I see that and then that and then the video villages behind that and then behind that. Although it's in a weird way that you've probably worked with them and there's some actors who wanna know about Some wanna know. And so ha so beginning of a show How do you approach the ac how do you how do you get to know the actors? How do you get to figure out whether they're the method actor, whether they're the person who wants all that, whether they're the that that weird actor, and I don't mean weird in a bad way, who can literally be like, Yeah, hang on a second. And then the other guy said blah blah blah and he laughs and they call action and he starts to cry. And just it's I don't even understand how they do that. It's crazy, right? Yeah. Jason Bateman was like that. Isn't he ⁓ isn't he isn't he? I mean it would be literally like the guy would be in a middle of a a story. Yeah. And hit the punchline and turn on a ⁓ a thing and then be in the character and then it would cut and he's out of character. I mean I And knows pretty much everyone's job more than No, that that by a long shot. Well the guy grew up on sets and everything. Right. ⁓ it was interesting 'cause the thing that I really 'cause I worked with him on Ozark. Yes. And ⁓ and I gotta throw in there. But ⁓ it was a that was a gift. And congratulations. Thank you. That was a gift that I was given though and I just didn't mess up. Like most of my career actually. But ⁓ but but the interesting thing about him that I really liked was you would go in when he was directing anyway. Right. And he would start on level four where he was explaining what he wanted. And he would just assume that you already understood level one and level two and well level three. And there were some people who couldn't keep up and I loved it because probably from ER, I was just used to going, Well yeah, that and that and that okay, but so what's the and then we'll you know, we'll come around here, we'll do this and this and this, these like complex things. And it was such I mean he was ahead of me by a long shot. I'm not saying I would but but it was such a it was so great to have the bar so high and have to have to try to reach up the bark. Yeah, yeah, you're y yeah, you're you're right where you you just you know, look we we always bring our A game, but when you you're just Every second you're just concentrating your you know, you're in like the the the kind of flow state of of of Yeah. Bill Pope's kind of like that. Yeah. When I work with Bill Pope, I'm always like how how it's it's more sort of like what's he gonna call me out about? Right. Right. You're right, you're right. You you know you're you're trying to. Absolutely, absolutely. You're constantly just yeah, you you're kind of looking for things that could bite you in the ass. Yeah. And and and trying to fix them before they you know or or you know, if question comes up, no, you've already figured out the answer for the 'cause you know, you know that that's probably probably gonna ask about that or ask about this and why didn't you address that well, ca you know, if just constantly and again, it's like that. It you just pay you gotta pay attention. You gotta you know that's what it comes down to, right? You've gotta pay attention. You you you wanna immerse yourself in that environment. Just always watching and and you know, executing the shot is such a small part of what we do. No question. It's all it's almost the easiest part of what we do. I hate to say that I hate to say that Dave, but sometimes you're right. Yeah, it's the most fun, but it's but it's it's there's so much and and like you said, paying attention because what I always say is You're on set and you're sitting behind the camera and there are just assassins everywhere. Everywhere. I don't mean that in a negative way, but I mean someone who's been told to put a stand over here and they haven't been told where the frame is. And they put it down, not the and you're like, wait, that can't there. In the meantime, someone else is doing so wait, hold on, you can't move that. You're gonna move over there and then why is that why is that mar you know, it's just this constant thing. Constant. It's incredible. But I I sidetracked you. So so beginning of a show, you come up with an actor Yeah, you're working with Tom Hanks. You didn't sidetrack me, I trying to avoid the question. You duck the question. But but what do you how do you how do you start that relationship? What do you do? I look I think I think you've got to you no, I don't really. I I think you've got to earn the trust is I think you need to create an environment for the actors where they feel like they have the freedom to ⁓ express themselves, express their character and that it's a safe place. Yeah. And it doesn't happen immediately, but I feel like if they feel they can trust you, they they they they feel comfortable around you that you then can start to if the y you know, th there's things that you need that can help your job is it just makes it a little easier to approach. So so I think I think the answer to that is just to r really you know, to be quite to give them the space, the environment they need to create. And and ⁓ I guess the question is how do you figure that out? How do you figure it out? I mean do you just sit back and watch and see what we're Pretty much I think so. I think, you know, obviously on a shot to shot basis there's there's things that you need that you know I also feel that you know, if you do have those characters that can potentially be difficult is that you tend to garner a respect that if you go in with something that you've thought about that you think is gonna make a difference. And if you don't and you get yelled at or whatever. It's like I just feel like at least in myself that I feel like I've done the right thing. Yeah. That's that's a great that's a great point. There's no question. ⁓ I think I It's interesting 'cause there's one or two actors I can think of who I've worked with who have the reputation of being tough. Yeah. And I have been able to get to the point with them where they realize that but I the w well, I'll back up a second. One of the things that I try to do is I go I'm not I'm gonna make sure that I don't take this personally 'cause it's not personal. Right, absolutely. Nine to ⁓ d I I interviewed Tommy Shalami and he had a great thing and he said, you know, sometimes ninety percent of the time when an actor is impossible, it's because they are absolutely scared out of their wits of what they have to do emotionally y on set and they don't know if they can pull it off. Right. And he goes, And you would be the same way. If you had to do some massive steady cam shot and you didn't know how to use the rig, you'd be freaked out. Right. And it's not to say that they don't know, but they're they're reaching and they're going, you know, and they're burying themselves in front of Right. So then if you so and to to to add to that, Dave, sorry don't want to cut you off. Interrupt. Is with that being said, if you can then provide them that space to provide them that environment where they feel that they can ⁓ you know express that. There's no question about it. No, but but ⁓ it's so that's number one is I always go, it's not about me. It's about them and what they need. Completely. And and and number two is then I'm just gonna be there in whatever capacity they need. And again, I am gonna ask them hey, you're having trouble hitting that mark, whatever, and know that they may chew my head off. Yes. And when they chew my head off, I just go, Okay, and then I go over to the D P and I go, Listen, I don't know what to do here, but I this isn't working and it's nothing against them. But how do you wanna play this? You wanna be okay if out of their light or whatever. Yeah. But But I think it's that respect and I you know, I I I told this on one at some point I'm gonna have said everything I have ever s I could ever say about my experiences on all these podcasts because I throw things in. But there was there was one show you got a will for I won't well. There was one show that I won't say the show or the person, but there was an actress who I had become fairly close with because it does happen, right? Absolutely. I you don't you don't try, but you just ⁓ you're together for sixty days or whatever. Right. I had a similar thing with Colin Farrell on ⁓ Thirteen Lives. You know because yeah, yeah, awesome. Colin Farrell actually, who you brought into the SOC Awards last year. Yeah. Who God, I got I'm gonna post this ⁓ 'cause I think it's out there. Colin Farrell gave that discussion about his v he he he gave Did he give you who who did he do what what what was he there for? He gave someone an award or something. No, no, he accepted the governor's award. That's He g Colin Farrow got the governor's award from the SOC last year at the at the ⁓ at the award show. This year. This year. Well, yeah. And ⁓ but he he it was almost like a poem that he had written about being on set and working with the operator that was so beautiful. I remember sitting there and like almost tearing up. It was so and I was like, Who's this guy? Right? He's obviously an amazing individual. ⁓ he's just a class actor. But I was working with this this this actress who I'd gotten very close with and she had a really, really big emotional day and she came up to me I think just before she went into makeup that day and she said, Listen, I can't talk to you today. We're not gonna talk today And I said, Totally cool. I get it. I knew what was on the That's amazing. But she she ha y you know, felt that she could and and wasn't just I'm just not gonna talk to you. I that's pretty amazing. And I think she knew that I would understand and and of course I had read the script and I'd read the So I I knew what was coming up that day. And I said, Totally cool. I said, Whatever you need and she said, And I may actually I may actually be kinda cruel to you. I 'cause I j just what's going on and I know you're gonna have to tell me like here's a mark and here's this and she knew what her you know, she knew what her strengths and her her her weaknesses were, so she's like, I know you're gonna have to adjust this and when you do I may ⁓ I just wanna let you know it's not you. I I said, I'm here for you. I'm here for what you need. And sure enough that did happen. And it was totally fine. And I just went, you know what, you need to cut well, you know but and she d and no, no, it just needs to come okay. And I'd walk away. And she just knocked it out of the park. I mean, just knocked it out of the park as I knew she would. And and they wrapped her and we had one more scene or something like that. And we were setting up the next the next shot and I feel like a presence behind me and I turned around and she was standing there and she just gave me a big hug. ⁓ my god. And she held on to me for two seconds, she didn't say anything. And she walked out at the door and I was like, All right, great. I feel good 'cause I I gave her whatever she you You gave her the environment. Those are those moments where you're like, that's what to me, that's what being a an operator is about completely. 'Cause you are in that you're in that bubble. Totally. Totally. And it's and it's actually it's w it's weird because I don't know about you, but like when I get to look through that eyepiece and I'm four feet away from someone who's just just ⁓ destroying it. it's a privilege. It is an Absolute honor and goosebumps. You know, again we talk about the Do do you get that where you f where someone's you you you like you come off and you're like that was a performance. ⁓ my god, yeah. And you know, times were tiered up as well. You know on ⁓ you know Which then an actor looks at you like, Yeah, I don't need another take. Yeah, yeah, and that's right. And and and you know, and that's a funny thing. It's also like a lot of the time that you know, as an operator is the actor will look at the operator to kind of Yeah. But that's another thing. Have you fallen have you fallen into that where You ha look you're gonna ha well, with some actors, you're gonna have that connection no matter what. But you do have to be careful, right? Because there are directors who will not enjoy that. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Have you b have you had that situation before? No. No. No. Yeah. Not where ⁓ I haven't had a situation like you know what? Maybe I have. Maybe actually come to think of it. Well the thing that I always look at is like especially like let's well let's say episodic, which I know you haven't done it ⁓ as much as as I have, right? But but you know, you get a new director coming in. Right, right. The smart ones will recognize the relationship between you and the actor and will will use that. Yeah. And and every once in a while you'll get someone who doesn't appreciate that because they're not the immediate person they're looking to and and they'll get upset about it and it's it's it's d do you remember the the situation that you had or was it a tough tough thing to navigate or Yeah, I mean I suppose it was just one of those overall situations. Yeah. That was tough to navigate and ⁓ but again, you know, using what we've kind of talked about and going and not taking it personally and and ⁓ Yeah, you know, just j again speaking up. Like I think you've got to you know, when you feel strongly about something that's gonna enhance the end product and it might be right or wrong again, ⁓ you know, going back to this that if it might stir up a greater conversation or it might, you know and I like that idea because it's not necessarily about going this is the way to do it and you do it. It's about going this is the way I think we should do it and then coming to something else that's even better that you And it's like I'm a creative, you're a creative. Yeah. Let's let's Let's we're we're we're in this creative environment. Shouldn't everyone have a voice? Shouldn't you know the you know, anyone I mean I remember on on Black Panther, like Ryan Kugler, the the the day we started shooting, he's like if anyone anyone has got an idea please feel free. Boy, that's a that's a director who is secure. ⁓ he's amazing. That's fantastic. What a dream. But what a what a what to to from day one Know you're in that environment. To empower those people. To empower every single person on that set. And what that does as well is it makes everyone give 110%. They're invested, right? They're creatively invested in the end product. Trevor that's I know I I've I've spoken about it before, but that's what I I always do with my Dollar Group and my my camera stuff. I have to empower the Dollar Group. ⁓ My eyes in here. Right. Right. And I know what I'm seeing, but you're seeing a whole different world. So you could I could be missing the best part of this that you see. You know, let me know. Yeah, that's yeah, that's o often my first hire on a job is the dolly group. Because I that do you agree to do a whole podcast on that on that subject 'cause they can just make or break and operate. There's no question. And and and you know, it's it's there's those dolly groups who can move from A to B and there's those dolly groups who know why they're moving from A to B, and that's the entire difference in the world. Yep. And then you know, they might add a C in there or a D and to you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then and then if you have your assistant and your dolly group and you on the same s that same sort of triangle going, it's just the the thing that I always I always talk about is to me, any time you're on the edge of falling off the cliff is where actually interesting stuff happens. Right. And I think that's acting too, right? It's like most of the great performances are so close to not working. Yeah. That you know, and you have to be willing to fail, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like at at at those moments as you you you do enter this kind of flow state where where you are completely in the zone. Yeah. Yeah. That that you you are just the concentration and and it's pr it's pretty powerful stuff. Do you find that when you're in when you get in that zone where everything's just working right, or if you're doing a study cam shot that you're you don't even think about operating anymore? You just You're just watching it almost or are are you constantly thinking about I've gotta go four steps and I've gotta turn left? No, no. No. I mean, you know, sometimes you know, the y by necessity you you you have to do that to get into something or around something ⁓ or whatever, but I'd like to think that we you know, and and obviously there's a lot of technology these days that that that can help a lot of the you know, stuff as a steady say a steady cam, for example, is, you know, before a lot of this horizon stabilization technology, ⁓ like your vaults, your waves and all that stuff is that you would spend you would focus so much of your attention on, say, the horizon or or whatever, whereas I personally feel now that w with a lot of those enhancements to the technology is you can kind of relinquish a little bit of that stuff knowing that something's gonna you that that that's kind of kind of taken care of. Not you know, kind of taken care of. ⁓ and you can focus on on ⁓ the storytelling. Yeah, yeah. It frees you up. It frees you up. Yeah. again that's just that that that's my opinion. But so I suppose yeah, I mean I I Do just watch. Uh-huh. I would what do you do during ⁓ what do you do during rehearsals? As an A camera operator? ⁓ it depend I I'll often write notes, like I will have the sides and I'll have the back and I'll write notes about what people are doing physically or or I'll dep what what I'll sometimes depending on how com complex or whatever it is is I'll you know, we'll do a rehearsal and I'll map out roughly on paper what what what happened in the rehearsal. And then, you know the lines of you know then they ⁓ on that line they move over there or that line they're ⁓ or the lines are where they move over the Or, you know, she comes round the corner at that that point. ⁓ and figuring out those beats you know that way. So yeah I'm I'm And then do you do you after rehearsal do you then go in and and pitch ideas? Do you have ideas for a shot or do you wait to hear from Again, I think that depends on the person you you know, your boss ⁓ of whether they you know, I th I think another great way to approach that is to, you know, again say, So w how do what do you think? What do you think about this? Uhhuh. Yeah. How do you think we should approach this? And you know, th you know, you get a general idea or what about this or what about that? Or maybe it's like, ⁓ I don't know, what do you reckon? Yeah, yeah. ⁓ well what about this? Again it goes back to that ⁓ no I don't like that idea, but maybe this and then it goes back to that. It I I don't know, I think it's ⁓ think it all circles back to that to to you being able to have a voice, to being able to communicate communicate the right way by empowering y you know, ⁓ of being very ⁓ I don't know what the word for it is, ⁓ you know, like like we said, ⁓ of of th it's not it's not my idea. I I don't I don't feel strongly that this is how we need to do it, but this is a creative opinion I have. And didn't you employ me f for Hopefully. Hopefully, right? 'Cause you know, you've you've seen some of the other stuff I've done or or you know, and I'd like to think that I've had a creative input to that process. Yeah. So That's one of those things where I don't know if you do this, but when I when I work with the D P for the first time I will say to them in the interview or whatever you want to call it when we first talk, I'll go I'll just go I just wanna make sure I'm I tend to be like really involved in the process and the storytelling. And that doesn't mean that I I have what I say goes or or whatever. But if you want someone who's just gonna operate and not gonna speak up right like I'm probably not the right person. And there's nothing wrong with that. You know, everybody works differently and the work you've done is fantastic, but but it may not be the best fit. Do you do you sort of Mm let people know that that's a Yeah, I d generally like to plant that seed. Yeah. ⁓ if it's somebody I haven't worked with before, ⁓ often I find that that person has, you know, been say a recommendation from another D P or or something like that that knows that person so they've maybe done a little bit of research of how you work and but yeah, absolutely, as I like to you know, just say, Hey, look, I I like to Are you okay if you know, if I have an opinion if you know And then and then do you sort of like the first couple of days or the first week, feel it out. You you poke here and there and sort of exact you figure out where that line is. You lost softballs to see like okay it catches it. Exactly the before you launch the bowling balls. I think we all do the same stupid crap. It's just that we have different ways of doing it. But there is that thing and it's even I've I've even said like, you know, if I do a show and I'm working with the dollar group I've never worked with before, which isn't that Often but it happens. you know, the first thing you're doing well first thing you do is you IMDB them and see who they've worked with. Absolutely. But then then you're sort of going, you know, what do you think here? You think it's track, you think it's planks? 'Cause you wanna see what their thought process is and what they know and and this and that and the other. But what about ⁓ prep? What do you do for prep for a movie? You're you're you're working with let's just say you're working with a ⁓ you're doing a movie with a f with a DP and a director you haven't worked with before. Yep, yep, yep. I asked for ⁓ visual references. ⁓ film film references generally and and a look book or something like Like a look a look book, ⁓ visual references. Actually for an you know, I've said it before in here, but lookbook for anybody who doesn't know is is really just well, it's not a book anymore. It's a it's a digital file usually. Right. ⁓ but of usually stills from movies and paintings and whatever. I you know you know who always had an interesting one was ⁓ I did a bunch of stuff with Sean Bobbitt and Steve McQueen. And and Steve is is Steve was an artist to begin with, and then became a filmmaker. And I asked Sean once about it 'cause I don't often see this these things, but he said that Steve will also always give him a book at the beginning of a movie. Yeah, right. Beforehand that is sort of like his feeling. But the interesting thing is it won't necessarily be something that you go, ⁓ I like I understand what we're doing now. Hi it's sorta his his job is to figure out what it is. So it'll be like you know, you're doing a movie about gangsters and he gives you a book on like Japanese paper mache cuttings or something like that. It's almost planting this subconscious It is seed. It's a very artistic reference. So and then will you will you also watch things that they've done before, so for for reference? Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Watch what they've done ⁓ you know, and ask, you know, if there's a ⁓ a certain style that they're going for, if there's a film reference to that style that's Yeah. So you have a way to go. I find I find that not only is that does that mentally put me in the mode hopefully that hopefully that there but also and and again, you know, maybe this sounds like it's it's manipulative, but it's if something can come comes up then I can go, ⁓ so is this ⁓ you did a movie, da da da da da da and there was this. So you c are you thinking it's like more like a vista like that? Because then at least it lets them know, okay, this guy's done some homework and he's done. I don't think it's manipulative at all, Dough. I think it's that you've Like you're vested. Wouldn't you then purposely doing it to let them know that I'm vested. I mean there's there's real value to it, but but you know you wanna have those things that you can plant to let them know that you've come prepared. Absolutely. And I think that's experience and I think that's part of the psychology as as operators that you've gotta tap into those ⁓ to to subtly Sure. Yeah Let people know and it it it's funny because there's one DP who I won't say who who likes to he likes to reference really obscure movies as a way of sort of showing what he knows and he'll and you know he'll go, ⁓ this is this is I'll tell you, this shot is like it's like Unxian Andalu or something like that, and I'll look at it and I'll go actually it's It's like Beethoven's third, the three D movie about the big dog and what and he knows what I'm doing and I know what he's doing. Right, it's right, right. It's one of those things everybody has their has their has their things that they do. Absolutely. ⁓ have you ever been fired? I have not. Oof. Okay. So you have a long career ahead of you because Well, I thought you had to get fired. I thought you had to get that out of the way. And I had to get fired three times, which is what I did. I j ⁓ and I I it's coming. Wow. I'm sure it's coming. Yeah, that's great. It's a you know, again part of the it may be but i it that imposter syndrome will have been like Finally It's funny because you talk about the imposter syndrome and I definitely have it too. I think I just have a different version of it. Right. You have this like, ⁓ my god, they're gonna figure out that that that I'm I I don't know what I'm doing and I'm gonna get fired. And I have this like, Yeah, I guess they're gonna figure out what I'm not I don't know what I'm doing and I'm gonna get fired and I guess I'll get another job after that. Like i it's I definitely have it too and and it's weird a as I get older, I mean I'm fifty four now, I've been doing this thirty five years, I think. I know there's a shot out there that's waiting for me that I'm gonna get handed that I can't do. And like I will walk into locations now and I'll go, Ooh, those stairs look pretty rough. Like we have a techno crane. What do we have here that's not aesthetic? You know. ⁓ but yeah, there is that gnawing sort of, you know, it I'm not twenty anymore, that's for sure. Nawing but ⁓ but ⁓ but then what what I think you start to do is you start to get more creative about, you know I and it's I joke about it, but there is some truth to it. It's like they're like, All right, so you know, we'll put it on the steady cam with the two thousand millimeter lens and we're gonna come here and then we're gonna come here. We're gonna go up on the crane, we're gonna come here, gonna and then you're like, you know, we could yes, that is a great idea. We could do that. Or let me just throw this out there. We could put it on a sandbag in the corner on a wide lens and would be very organic and like you have all these stupid words, right, that we all use when we want to sell a shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause it's fourteen hours into the day and you're too tired to do it. Right. Right, e exact. And it's it's funny sort of like going back to to Elvis and you know some pretty big kind of camera moves in. Thank you. In in in that film ⁓ but the the process of getting to that was, you know, 'cause Baz comes from a kind of theatre world. So with Baz w you know, he'd he'd come into a space and w y you know, he he'd he'd sort of like go through with his hands what he wanted What's the camera do? And I just remember feeling sick in the stomach. And this is every day. Why is he doing that? He's getting but but the I'm like but the camera what nothing can go through the screen. It doesn't do that. Yeah, it doesn't do that. But it's like you sit down and be like, ⁓ God, God, God, how am I gonna how am I gonna get through this? How to get through but you do and you kind of just go, all right, that's what you right? Got it, got it. So I'm gonna figure out a tool that I can put in this that I can give you a tool that can move pretty much anywhere within this space with a few limitations. So now I can give you this. Can we pick that bit up or can we, you know, of of ⁓ of of trying to it's going back to what I was saying about Jeff Haley is you alwa your your instinct is to always go, Absolutely, we got this. ⁓ completely. And then you go back and go, How the hell are we going to do Right. ⁓ but after your dolly grip, you're like, do we have anything? What are we doing? And then you go back and you go, you know, we could do all this perfectly if we can pick up that one piece or whatever. Right. Almost. Right. Right. Exactly. And it's and it's you know, often it's education as well, 'cause you know, a lot of people don't know what the tools we what they can do, what the limitations are. Yeah, 'cause it's like, okay, you've got some complicated, you know, one or something like that is is ⁓ you know, is it a one or is it a one or 'cause it's telling the st is it like Yep. Or are you gonna cut 'cause if you're gonna cut could we maybe do you know, if it's not performance affected or whatever, we could do this bit really well or w whatever and and then I don't I don't know. No, But obviously a one is a one, you got you know, you you that's what you do. You do but it's it's it's finding all those little nip bits out and and and But if you know you're gonna cut into the middle of it, it could be well we could do the first half much better this way and the second half much better that way. Right. Are are there times where you'll you'll sort of bring the A D part of your brain into it and go, We could totally do this. I think what you're talking about is gonna take two hours. I I can give you This which is probably eighty percent of what you're talking about in in twenty five minutes, is that a value like do you do you bring that up or do you you don't you keep that out of that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean I I think it Yeah, yeah. But again it's striving for the perfect shot. So Exactly. You know, and I think that that that's a that's a level w you know, that that way above me that make those decisions as opposed to I want to give you the best that I feel like I can. Sure. It might take, you know, pull on this wall and pulling that wall down and getting the crane in there or or something like that. It might take about but you then you can make that decision. Or we could do this we could do it this way as well. Yeah you're talking about Elvis I remember there w there was one sequence specifically where it's like he he pulls up in a ⁓ in a convertible on the street and then he goes up into the club. And I remember either it was a one shot or it was a series of shots, but I remember watching it and just going, ⁓ my gosh, this is unbelievable. Like I mean the the conceptually as far as the number of people, as far as as the execution, I mean it was just fantastic. It just had such a great feel to it. Thank you. Yeah that was a you know we that was a well it started off as a steady cam shot. taking him out of a out of the Cadillac and then he kind of goes he's basically kind of being bumped around by a bunch of people and he goes bombarding. He goes sort of like down a a a block and a half or something. So we did it, you know, it was a kind of following shot. So we kind of, you know, car comes in, picks him up and it was just kind of chasing him down the street, you know, but it just had such a great energy. I it's But that's Baz, you know, like he just it's i and that's it's such you know, on that film was just You just knew every day it was you were part of something special. It was That's cool. It was really awesome. I mean, daunting and and compl like nerve wracking. 'cause you're not sure if you can pull off. You don't know if you can pull it off. And it's not it's every shot. Wow. There's not a shot where it's like, ⁓ okay, okay, I can I can take a So you're just exhausted at the end. You're exhausted, Dave. Absolutely exhausted. And is it the kind of thing where I those are big. I'm sure. But i is it the kind of thing th those are those are very big shots in that movie. There are a lot of them. Is it the kind of thing where you have a heads up for that usually or you just show up on the video and goes, I've come up with this. ⁓ completely. Wow. Completely. Or it might be one way and then would come back in and and had an idea and completely changed it. involved, do you sometimes look at it and worry that it's becoming about the shot and not about the story? Does that enter you know do you On that or any movie, I think. Yeah, yeah. That's a r it's a really good question. I It probably should more than what it does, to be honest. Yeah. Because I don't think it happened on that movie. Because Right. Mainly because And I know this isn't a bad word, but Baz Lerman movies are a spectacle, right? ⁓ absolutely. They they're just big. They're flamboyant. And but there's sometimes when I'm on other shows where I'm like, I don't know And it it's not as much as it used to be. There was that point where everybody was trying to do the longer shot and the longer shot and the longer shot. And there was that point where it was like I think this is becoming about the shot. Yeah, yeah. Just some crazy. No disrespect. I it's an amazing feat of feet of filmmaking. Yeah, but at a certain point it's like people are watching the shot and if they're watching the shot, I feel like I'm doing I'm doing I I'm not doing justice to the material. Right. Right. ⁓ Or do you just keep quiet about that and that's someone else's Yeah, I gotta be honest, I I I probably I don't voice that opinion that much. Is I you know, 'cause I feel like I'm so focused on on on making technically what's being required as as best as possible and and sometimes you know, those blurred lines of of thing go, ⁓ hang on, what about the story? ⁓ You're assuming though. I mean, I guess Baz Lerman's probably not a good example because I would imagine that he's so in tune with what he wants. He just seems like a visionary. Absolutely. And and I mean actually he's an auteur. He really is. If you watch a Baz Lerman movie, you know it's a Baz Lerman movie. Completely. Completely. Absolutely. What an opportunity. Amazing. Ama amazing. I mean, not only Baz Luhrmann Baz Lerman and Elvis. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. And and you know, like Mand Mandy Walker just just, you know, knocked knocked it out of the park on that movie. I mean, it's just such a Beautiful looking film. It is. It's an incredible looking film. Well listen, this has been fantastic. a really great conversation. There's so much good information in here. I this is one of those I mean they all are, but some more than others, where I walk out and I go, Wow, I learned a lot. Wow. Which is always good for me. But I'll leave you. But likewise, I mean I think, you know, and and you definitely brought up a a a lot of things that that we don't unpack until you know but How often, you know, it takes a strike or whatever. Yeah, right. You know, a strike for us all of to be able to get in the same room together. ⁓ no, but ⁓ but I no, I think you're right because I think all of this stuff is stuff that like you just don't have time to think about. And also operators don't get together and talk really. I mean or when we do, it's like you don't want to talk about work. Right, right. Because you're working. Yeah. So ⁓ so that's why it's I I actually mentioned it earlier to you before we started. It's been Interesting to me, and it'll be interesting to see now that I think we're at the end of the strike. By the way, anybody listening to this, I just want to point out we're in the twenty twenty-three strike, not the twenty twenty-five strike or the twenty twenty-seven strike. The twenty thirty strike nobody's even thought about yet. But ⁓ but it's been interesting because I think that people have come in and I myself actually too is like and even I think you hear it's like you start talking about this and you go ⁓ you know, I like my job. Right, I right. There's a nostalgia. It's too much cathodic. It is, it is. But I think that if you had just finished a five day week and this was Sunday, you'd be like, Yeah, let's just okay, let's talk for twenty Yeah. You know? Yeah. Because you've been doing it all week. But I think that there's a weird there's a weird thing where you've disconnected from it for a while and you can sort of it's like you're it's like you're standing back looking at a picture as opposed to like standing right up, you know, close to looking at the picture. I agree. But ⁓ so I I'll leave you with the the question that I leave everybody with, which is Someone getting into the industry, yeah. Operator moving up from B to A. Yeah. ⁓ Jason Elson now talking to Jason Elson back when he started, you know, narrative, whatever you want to call it. what advice what advice do you have to give them on how to succeed? Look, I think there's there's a I mean I suppose there's a few things. There's I think it's important to be somebody on set that somebody wants to be around for say fourteen to sixteen hours a day. To be that person that's just be cool. Just be enthusiastic. Pay attention. And one other piece of advice is show concern, don't get involved. Todd Slopey told me that years ago. It stuck with me. It's so true when you think about it though. Like on so many ⁓ on on more of not not as our jobs as operators, but but you know, like let's for example, like ⁓ a transmitter's in the a video transmitter's not transmitting properties, it's in the wrong spot. Like don't don't have an don't like, ⁓ well I can move it. Don't don't touch it. Don't just ch ⁓ God, that's a shame. But do not get involved. Because then all of a sudden you're responsible while there's no video assist. It's now on you. So show concern, don't get involved. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.