Dave C: On today's episode, we'll talk about the documentary industrial complex, the importance of listening, Ozark, Boston Strangler, and of course, the benefit of working for an art house football coach. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website theop.io is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Like it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Victor Thirty Echo Tech Two. Hey Mark. Hey Mark. Camera set. Hello and welcome back to the OP Podcast, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I'm Dave Komites, your host, and ⁓ coming to you over the internet today to ⁓ someone in New York of all places. I don't know why I said of all places, because there are a lot of people in New York. ⁓ a very good friend and an amazing camera operator, ⁓ and director and cinematographer and also just human being. ⁓ Ari Isler. ⁓ Ari and I have have actually been fortunate enough to work a couple times together. ⁓ but ⁓ some of his credits, not all by any means, ⁓ Black Rabbit, Boston Strangler, which we are absolutely going to talk about because not enough people have seen this amazing movie. Ozark, where we work together because he actually brought me into that. ⁓ The Outsider, Happy Ish, ⁓ which was the show that also nobody saw, but that was sort of a lot of fun a while back. ⁓ There's a movie called Verite, which is just coming out, I think, in a couple of weeks that ⁓ he was on. And he directed a movie called Eleven Fifty Five, which was one of those movies where he said, ⁓ hey, I directed this movie, you should watch it. And you sort of like you sort of watch it hoping it's not terrible so you can say something. And it was actually really good. ⁓ so that was kind of cool. ⁓ and I'll actually find out where it's streaming because I don't know. ⁓ and before I go on, I should mention that in the past ⁓ he has done a breakdown of a one or like a really different kind of wonder. that he did on the outsider and then that led into a separate discussion of just wonders and what makes them that we had. Both are available on the podcast and I'll link to them in on the webpage. ⁓ but there you go. Without further ado, Mr. Ari Isler. Thanks for being here, man. Thanks, Dave. ⁓ happy to join you as always. You're excited, I can tell. Let's talk about this me excited. Now I'm smiling and everything. This actually is Ari excited. This is about as excited as I guess. No, ⁓ thanks for having me. Well I've been trying forever and you're never available 'cause you're always working on something. It's ⁓ you know, ⁓ which is good, but that that's that's the way it goes, right? I'm mostly chauffeuring my nine year old and taking care of the dog that they made us get. This year. But ⁓ so ⁓ what dude tell me your story. How'd you get how'd you get to where you are and I went to ⁓ I went to film school for a couple of years at NYU. Start of my biggest secret that no one ever wants to talk about on set. I went to community college and I went to film school. ⁓ I'd always had a background in photography, so I guess I guess I wasn't scared of the camera, you know, in a in sophomore film class. so, you know, was interested in that and ⁓ you know, fell into shooting student films and and camera assisting and working in electric and all that, you know, for free or or or close to ⁓ in my early twenties and just didn't really ⁓ have the resources to to make my own thing at the time. So it was a great way to learn. ⁓ I learned so much, you know, mostly not actually at school. ⁓ anyways, I loved camera assisting, ⁓ brief had a brief love affair with camera assisting. ⁓ and then I and I was gonna, you know, I graduated right before nine eleven. and was gonna take my life savings and join the union and then there was no work ⁓ after nine eleven, you know, production production was already, you know, really there was so much production in Canada already around that time. And then, you know, ⁓ clearly, you know, New York just after It's tragic, it was certainly not the biggest tragedy of nine eleven would be my camera assisting career. But I didn't join didn't take the only money I had in the world to join the union. ⁓ and I was working, you know, as like a hundred dollar a day focus pull on super sixteen shorts and you know, things like that. For every seconding on little commercials that were still shooting, whatever it was. And you know, I met someone, I was I was pulling focus on a student film that I like, you know, for like a hundred dollars a day, like, you know, Something that maybe at the time I you know, I always tell people like, you know, you're not you know, it's just like take whatever's in front of you. You never know who you're gonna meet. You know, it's the great thing about sort of independent, you know, filmmaking and even and even union filmmaking. It's just like everyone has a side project, has a hustle. There's so many people that are so supportive. Having been someone who's directed feature films now and and produced, you know, feature films, like that community is so far reaching that people that really wanna help others ⁓ succeed. So anyways digress a little bit. I met a director, I was a camera assisting. I met a director. We ended up making a documentary together. You know, he hired me to shoot a documentary for what happened what ended up being like four years. ⁓ shot Super sixteen mostly. It was called the Hip Hop Project. It went to you know, went out festivals around the world, went to Tribeco, was in theaters briefly, but more than I also then lost every camera assistant client I could possibly, you know, w ⁓ I hope to have. So at the same time I kind of fell into ⁓ what Bradford Young when a young Bradford Young called the documentary industrial complex. ⁓ wow. You know, it was like everyone was making a documentary, you know, everyone had a five D was following someone down the street. So but the you know the the success of this doc kinda led to ⁓ opportunities in stylized live music and music video and eventually documentary stock commercials. So gonna get be becoming a really long answer. But basically I spent so then I spent almost the next ten years shooting all those things, whether it's you know Concerts, you know, I've sh you know, Bonnaroo, Beyonce, like whether it's music video, whether it was, you know, Delta Airlines, you know, commercial that's supposed to look like a documentary. So it's great. I mean, I sp I traveled the world, I learned a lot, you know, I mean I could dork out forever about all the things you learn about lighting and composition when you have no resources. You know, you have to take all you know, take every lamp in the hotel room and put a pillowcase in front of it for a soft light, or you have to just find the backlight, or you figure out how to use the macro ring on the ENG to pull focus to the drummer's hand that's a foot front of you. And everyone's like, How do you do that? But don't you feel that don't you feel that where you at where you're at in your career right now, that those things are like invaluable an invaluable. A hundred per I'm ⁓ a hundred percent so so helpful. So 'cause 'cause basically I never went back to camera assisting. So anyways, I was on a Beyonce job in two thousand eleven. I had done probably ten union days in the last five or six years. They I was always very upfront. I call the union, say hey Or I'd have production call the union and say, This, you this guy's not a union member. We want him to work on this concert at Radio City. This guy I shot a you know, g I shot a few smallish union commercials as a young person. And ⁓ I'd always call and be like, I I wanna join the union, I don't have any union clients. And they'd be like and they were very good with me. They like, We're gonna let you go. Production's gonna pay. So that went on for a few years. I was on a Beyonce, pretty cool Beyonce job at Ro because Roseland's a very pretty small venue. It was like ten eleven, you know, the red camera was still a thing, a big thing. And ⁓ production was just a music video? Yeah, it a concert. It was ⁓ no, it was a concert. It was like a ten camera concert. ⁓ I was just one of the operators. ⁓ but production, you know, when they submitted the names, they picked two people and they said, These guys can't do that, period. No matter what you pay in Arias Lur, I don't remember the other operator was like, You you have to join the union if you want to do this job. And it was actually a really what what was great for me is at the time I was just about like It was a great thing to be able to travel and and shoot bands and and be, you know, quirks ⁓ on every continent in the world besides Antarctica. You know, so but the the great opportunity was I had friends, you know, I had gone to school with Ben Hutchins, who was a good friend of mine. I had, you know, I knew, you know, Reed Morano, I looked up to very much and had done a couple short films with Rachel Morrison was a good friend of mine. So it like these people who are now, you know, very successful filmmakers were shooting tears. You know, we're we're trying to shoot, you know, three, four, eight million dollar movies. So I already had a relationship with them and a creative language and a trust where I, you know, could come in and and start doing small movies. So I joined as an operator. And, you know, it was it was certainly an education, but we'll talk about that. You know, I wasn't ready to be an A camera operator, but on small movies, I I think my my passion and and and and what I had learned, you know, went a long way. ⁓ had to kind of relearn, you know, from you know, people like yourself in terms of like how to exist in that world. But so I started doing tears, which led to, you know, and then that led So the sort of like when I met you was like the explosion of television, right? Which was what, you know, what two thousand thirteen two thousand fourteen, you know, two thousand thirteen. Unhappy ish, which I mentioned. Unhappy ish, right. Yeah. And the best thing that ever happened to me really was I was, you know, Ben called me to do happy ish and he was like, you know, I ⁓ I'd really like you to do a camera, but the producers, you know, want somebody with more of a resume. And I said Sure, like I don't know this world was my instincts, you know, my maybe like you know, maybe my my middle class humility. I don't know. But you know, and it it was the best thing that ever happened because if I had for some reason someone, you know, gave me that job, I would have gotten destroyed and I wouldn't have learned anything, you know, but I you know, I I learned how to run a set, you know, from from yourself, ⁓ and others. And ⁓ you know, even doing like the Mozart and the jungle pilot was the same thing. Ben shot that and, you know, I did B and Jeff Molstock today and I just, you know, ⁓ I found people that were kind of instant mentors because I was like, wow, these people are really good at what they do and they're involved in so many things to make the shock good. And I always said if I ever like won anything, which is not much for us to win, but I'd say, you know, I'd like to thank you. So, you know, I have two people I really think of, which is yourself, ⁓ and Ben Semenoff, in terms of just learning so much from. And I always say, you know, ⁓ Dave Komites taught me how to run a set for, you know. without being an asshole and Ben Seminoff taught me when to be an asshole. All right, I'm gonna take the Ben part out of that 'cause I can't speak to that, but that's that's very nice of you. ⁓ I I cause I I showed up on Happyish and Ben Cutchins who who shot it, I didn't know him and I didn't know you. Right. And I don't I mean I don't really remember did you not know what you were doing? 'Cause I don't remember that. No, it's not I don't think it's not know what I'm doing, but like the difference, I mean, when you're on a T V show And you're on anything, right? That's a two camera shoot that's like, you know, ambitious in any way, whether it's scope, location, and you haven't run a set, especially working in New York. I mean, that's whole nother conversation. But you know, New York's not the easiest city to work in. I mean, my closest one of my closest friends in the business has produced an A D'd movies everywhere in the world and he says point blank, it's the hardest city to work in. I would agree with that actually. Yeah. I mean for for so many reasons. Yeah, for so many reasons. Whether you know, whether it's just all the personalities or the logistics or, you know, people just, you know, kind of wearing all their the anyways. It's just like you have to I mean there's a whole thing, we I guess we'll just talk about A operating, right? So it's like you you you're you're responsible, you're you're sort of you're the intersection of so many things. And you know, people talk about below the line as being, you know, ⁓ it on set like Production designers, directors of photography, I know they're technically below the line positions, but they have a different relationship to the project. They prep, they have agents, you know what I mean? They have they're hired in a much different way. So I had a this is a funny story. I had a young a friend of mine who's ⁓ now he's very he's very talented. He shoots a lot of ⁓ kind of commercials now, but he w you know he was he was opera he was an assistant for a long time. He was operating his first ⁓ his first union movie and he called me halfway through, I like, How's going? He's like Why does everyone hate me so much? And I said I was like and I thought about it for a second and thought about you know back a few years I was like and and even more recently in New York, I said, Nobody hates you. I was like, honestly, it's not gonna sound it's gonna sound very unromantic, but you're just the most you're basically the best paid, highly regarded person that anyone can be openly mad at for little to no reason. You're yeah, yeah. You're a target that's accessible is what it comes to. You're a target. Yeah. And you have you have some responsibility, but not enough to actually change anything that needs to be changed changed most of the time. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Or you can do that and get yourself in trouble like I have. ⁓ so ⁓ that but that's a that's a whole nother piece of advice. So so it's like here's the thing. It's like, you it's like and you're just kind of on an island, right? The first and the second the A first and second run the department, right? They do a great job of making sure everything's scheduled, you know, the the h they're making sure the additionals are coming in, all this stuff on a TV show. And you're just sort of on this island trying to make every shop better, right? So you're always asking people for things. You're always working closely with, you know, I mean, ⁓ hopefully, I mean that's how I do, you know, it's like everyone does a job differently and every show is different. I've been lucky enough to consistently be on things where there's enough time and money to be detail oriented. So it's like you're constantly working with the set decks, you're constantly working with props, you're working with the grips. You know, you're working obviously with the director and cinematographer, you're working, you know, somewhat with the electricians. you're just this nexus and you're on an island and all you're trying to do is make every shot better. So you're really annoying people. You know, it's like you you you you do it you try to do it kindly, but it's like you're constantly asking for things, right? Because ⁓ in order to sort of create you because you are like the implementer of the director of photography and the director's vision. So it's like you become I think for really like in my mind, below the line starts with us. Yeah, no, I it's a really good way to put it. Let me ask going back to happiest, let me ask you a question and I'm not looking ⁓ I I'm I just want to say this ahead of time. I'm not looking for you to say like to to boost me up here, but no, no you said you went into it not really knowing like exactly what an A camera operator did and then by working working you you kind of learned some of that. Like do you remember some of the things that you you learned that you were like, ⁓ I didn't even realize this happened or or or I mean something that was that was that impressed upon you? Or was it just an overall thing? Yeah, I mean thing is it's not that I didn't know how to do the job. It's that the job, you know, on a f on a two, three, four, five million dollar movie versus the the ⁓ the sort of the pressure of a you know a feature film or a major a major television show is very different. You know, it's like my I finished the first season of Ozark and my wife ⁓ and I kinda you we had a newborn and my wife very kindly said to me, you know, one morning, I think you just need to be kind to yourself. Which is a way of saying, like, could you fucking leave us alone, please? It's like your job is to your job becomes to to make every shot the most successful it can be, the fastest it can be. Right? It's like you're you're you're like, how can this shot Be perfect and be fast. You know what I mean? And not that you have to it's like you don't have to, you know, it's like that whatever that marine thing, fast is what is it? Slow is fast. Slow is safe, safe is fast. Something like that. Actually, I don't even know the saying, but I'm a firm believer in that, right? I don't like I'm not on set freaking out trying to work fast, but like I know the pressure of each shot, right? It's like you know, and it's like it's like you f you feel it. on some level. You know what I mean? Like fortunately, again, like I'm not in a situation where it's go, go, go and it's not safe and none of that. It's just a matter of like, you're I mean, we get paid in six minute increments. You know what I mean? It's like was Ari at crew parking at six twelve or six twenty four? Let's talk about it. Like have you and UPM wake you up after doing fifteen hours to tell you to take your turnaround? I was like, I'm asleep. You know what I mean? My phone doesn't the only like the only person to get through right now is my wife. So I know you called me twice. And it's so now it's 18 hours into the day. You're waking me up to call me to tell me take my turnaround. ⁓ But actually your your point of your point of the fact that we get bit in six minute increments, I never thought about it before, but that's like so sort of indicative of how like ridiculously, you know, ⁓ how the speed of everything is so important. But but you're you're I really like how you put that. I've never thought about that before because you are trying to do the best you can as quickly as you can. Quickly probably isn't the right word. You're doing the best you can with the most efficient solution you can. As efficiently as possible. Yeah, yeah. That's a better way to put it. If it's not going well, I mean everybody's every operator's been there, all of a sudden you got other people telling you what might be more efficient, you know, or you got, you know, the key grip saying, you know, so you have a really good key grip saying, Okay, let's do this the wrong way into the walkie. You know what I mean? Like it's like you know what I mean? It's like but ⁓ but I was young, you know what I mean? So it's like all like to just watch you calmly run set. Calmly, you know, to watch like Jeff Molstock, you know, just operate a technocrane so elegantly, right? Yeah. With a as if nothing was going on and just putting the pieces together was just like, ⁓ you can do this and feel like a human you know, everyone can feel like a human being. You know, it's like you don't this whatever stress Yeah, it's like I'm not that I've not that I've screamed or ⁓ but it's like whatever stress you're whatever stress you're feeling, there's a level of confidence that comes with years of of of of of you know of the wheels being, you know, just feeling natural of relationships and you know, Mozart in the Jungle Pilot was actually I guess my first really big job. I was on B camera. That was before Happy Ish? I think so because I took I didn't do that show because even though Cutchin shot that show, I w I took it off to to make my movie. Yeah. ⁓ okay. And then he got happy ish afterwards and I was, you know, luck lucky enough to join. But the Mozart and the Jungle Pilot was like, you and it was like it was very clear, like and and and this Props Aberis, who's a props and set must be props guy in New York, great guy, took me aside and said, Listen, it's very clear that you know what you're doing and that you you know you care and maybe you're talented. But you know, when you stu when you're touching you know when you keep touching things, which you're not supposed to do, right? He was like, It's also clear, not it's not it's not I'm not worried about the rules. It's just like it tells everyone you're green. That you're new to this world. Interesting. So it's like, well, what you know, he's like, so he asked me like, what do you want to give off right now? You know what I mean? And it's a it's an interesting advice. It's like it's like people will respond more to like, you know, I'm I'm, you know, this is his world also, you know. And I learned a lot from you know, Gabu, Camilo, Tenero, you all these like guys that nobody listening to this podcast is gonna know. ⁓ but like legendary, you know, 25 year in, 20 year in New York set decks and props and You know, knowing that they too, you know, fare and they too will respond to, you know, an energy. You know, it's like they can show up and just do the job and and not care and as operators can too, you know, or they can make things better. And I think that's that's the sort of thing that I try to do. It's like I'm not like a I I you know, I I mean I don't I I'd like to think ⁓ you know, I I just want to get the job done, right? I'm not the I'm not like the most pleased and thank you person. But it's like respect for people's, you know, try try to involve people. ⁓ come take a look at the monitor. What do you think? Like where do you think we should put the chess pieces in the foreground? You know, the thing is the thing you just mentioned about being green is really interesting to me because I have a tendency, and I think honestly, and I and I'm actually honest with props people when I start working with them, because I came off of ER, which was like you know, there was stuff everywhere. And the props guys even understood in set checkers like that you were you were gonna move things in the foreground in the Yeah. I I was sort of brought up that way, so it's my tendency. And I always try obviously to include people and and whatever. But what I tell them sometimes, and I never thought about it the way you thought. I don't think anybody with my hair being the way it is now thinks that I'm green, but but that's another story. But ⁓ but this is a long time ago for both of yeah. Yeah, but I but I always I always try to explain to them it's not that you can't do your job and you're not good at your job. It's actually that there's something that I'm looking for, like a glint or whatever. And I feel I'm not good enough to explain it to you as fast as I can just go over and tweak it. So can I go you know what again? Yeah. And I would say, you know, it's funny, and and this is true for so many things in the business. Like I actually, you know, on these sort of the credits that you actually, you know, mentioned the the the credits that mean something that, you know, because of the quality of the production and and all that and and and the reception from the public, I haven't had those issues on those jobs because like the people also like those You know, it's like this was good advice when I was young, just to like I didn't stop tweaking the foreground. You know, like but it was just like I I knew, you know, when to just you know, when to when to when to sit back and when to get involved. But yeah, it's like yeah, I think a an ex you know, seasoned prop person just would tell me like, Well you see what I don't see, you know what I mean? So it's like if you're gonna it's like you you can have that area, you know what I mean? It's a foot and a half from the camera. You know, just like you know, just tell me what you're doing. You know, ⁓ anyways, there's no, you know, listen, there's no right Well it's like there's every relationship is is different on set. So it's like it's more about n navigating personalities, especially New York City. but ⁓ yeah, so it's like as you I I as like the the the more seasoned people you work with, the less of an issue it becomes 'cause you know, you know, you know when to be really respectful. I've only been I've only been grieved a few times. I've only been grieved by people that are quite young, to be honest with you, you know, in in that. Like the you know, anyways. I I ⁓ I think that whole thing about about No, I I think that that's really great advice for younger operators because again, you when you're moving something you're not doing it maliciously, hopefully. I mean maybe some people do. But ⁓ but if you're do that that's another story if you're doing that. But ⁓ but but how it can be perceived. I think that's really fascinating. It's so funny 'cause you've been talking about New York and it reminds me of w I mean, I've moved back east twice, but the first time we moved back, ⁓ I ⁓ I know Mariska Hargate really well. So I called her up and I was like, Hey, can you throw my name to your camera people? And she's like, Yeah, sure. So and like a week later I got a call to go to Law and Order SVU. And ⁓ they were they were like down like at the at the bottom of Manhattan and those weird like down by the pier and those weird weird ⁓ stages down there. And it was just like we we they sent us off to another part to like, you know, classic B camera thing, like go shoot this little piece here, set it up and get it ready or whatever. So We need to put dance floor down and and our Dolly group was like this guy who I mean, I remember him as being eighty, I'm sure he wasn't, but he was like just a classic old school New York group and he's working by himself mostly and he's bringing in, you know, boards and putting ⁓ down and one of them overlaps. So I went down to go push that and he goes, Don't touch that and I was like, Huh? And the camera assistant pulled me and he's like, Yeah, don't touch that, he'll grieve you and I'm like But but he's gonna die. Like I'm not I'm not comfortable with like, yeah, but there's it's a different union here, just don't mess with us. That's that's New York. Yeah. So it is it is a different place, there's no question. So so at what point at what point did you sort of like feel in your career did you feel like I I can jump on any camera, you know, any any any any set as an A camera operator and and be and like be proficient I don't know. Yeah. Or you're not there yet. la last week. No, I I mean I I ca I'll answer the I'm gonna answer it with a different answer, which I which I think is I think is so it's like y w whenever you read d like I've heard directors talk about this and actors talk about this and I think it's actually true in in all levels of filmmaking. But like if you read directing books, they talk about actors as not every book, but I think the smart ones like every actor needs something different, right? From a director. Like it's like, you know, I mean I've worked with a wide variety of incredible actors like Laura Linney, get out of her way. You know what I mean? She's already made she's already made thought about every decision you possibly could imagine as a direc as as as a director for her character, right? And the entire show and everyone else's character. ⁓ you know, Dakota Johnson, tell her exactly what you want. She's incr she's an incredible technician, but she's not theater. She doesn't come, you know, she doesn't have a lot of opinion. She wants to do the job and do the job well, and you should have a vision for her. You know? ⁓ Jason Bateman let him learn his lines while he's in makeup. So Because he's incredible and he can do it, right? But I mean and that said he's amazing in in DTF St. Louis. What a performance. I've worked with him for years. Yeah, but he's really watched that. I mean, it's not a perfect show, it's fun and it's it's sad and I think it's very good. And Stephen Conrad's incredible, but but Jason's performance is amazing. So I think anyways. Yeah, I no, I r I recommend it. So think as the that's that's the kind of the spirit I take to set when working with different DPs and directors is every DP and director needs something different from me, right? That's great. It's like yeah it's so it's just it's it just makes sense. It's just like and it's like when you're navigating personalities, it's like in a every set tracer needs something slightly different. But you know focusing on our real responsibility which is working you know to sort of to implement you know what the director and DP are thinking and also to you know to some degree put our own opinion on it, you know, and that may change. I mean, you I you know me well enough. I'm not like a I I'm not short of opinions. ⁓ but like that changed this shot to shot. You know what I mean? It's like some shots are gonna need a lot from you and some shots are going to need very little from you and some directors are going to need a lot from you and some DPs are not gonna want, you know, are gonna want you to just execute. And I think I when I learned that, when I really learned that ⁓ and the benefit of how beautiful like it made me love filmmaking. ⁓ again when I just was sort I was sorting I was feeling like I was kind of successful in the industry and and knowing that and and when that happened was I d my first kind of big for me big some other people not big ⁓ a camera job was the outsider. And I had just come back to New York after doing the outsider, which was a very imposed, very, you know, ⁓ a lot of wheels work when when the camera moves, you know, not not not a lot of steady cam, not a lot of hand, you know, almost no handheld until the finale. ⁓ Just a very composed, very, you know, people exactly in the window where you want them, people exactly in the reflection where you want them, lots of marks. That's purposeful. Purposeful, sure. And it's like that and having grown up on that nose arc, that's kind of and and and having Ben Samenoff as a mentor, that's kind of where my brain started to go. Like I loved all kinds of films, but that's how I started to see filmmaking. And just when that happened, I got asked to do fill-in for B camera on An amazing mini series. One of the best things I've ever worked on had a very small role in it called I Know This Much Is True, which is with Mark Ruffalo. He plays Twins, and it's directed by an incredibly talented man named Derek C. France who made Blue Valentine. Now Derek sets no marks. No marks. No dollies. I mean, you have a dolly technically to support the camera. The camera never moves. You're shooting film, you're on eleven to one. And you're I would say and I was a little bit freaked out. This is the first job after my first kind of big, very calculated job. I'm filling in on B camera and I mistakenly on day two, like I'm kind of in awe. Everyone's like, This is really interesting. The photography's interesting. They're doing it in a different way than I am. Like I was like, you know, I told Adalgar was like, Well, maybe put a slider on just in case, you know, he's Yeah, we don't really do that here. And I thought, ⁓ maybe this is just like a New Yorkism. But then I realized they really don't do that here. ⁓ they just put the camera in a place and Derek, I would say, Derek is extremely talented. I've done some commercials with him since. He I would call him like an art of house football coach. He's like he sets you up for success. You know what I mean? It's like it's amazing. You find this beautiful moments on your Zoom lens without the camera moving. And you you know, he just puts you in the right place and he's got the right location, and he's he's putting all these things together, and he doesn't want to rehearse. He doesn't want to I put anyways, I asked to put a mark down, and I gotta like I thought it was like I kicked The director in the face was the look. And I was like, I thought I was done. But like I think I was so I I was very enthused and inspired to try to learn this way because I had so much respect for the films Derek had made before. And I only did like a few days of B camera. And when the B camera operator came back, they asked me to shoot second unit. I mean it was very simple second unit. It's not like, you know, but you know, I could expose film and they the the the DP and director f realized I had like a similar sensibility and I was excited by the work. ⁓ so I ended up shooting second unit for two or three weeks. and it's like one of the probably in a way it's kind of the I one of the best projects I've ever worked on. I mean, i I had much less to say. I it's it's hard to say when I had Strangler, you know, I prepped the whole show. I was very involved in everything and got nominated for an F C award next to Jeff Haley. Not the person whose bio you want to be next to. ⁓ necessarily. But ⁓ yeah, yeah. So So anyways, it but anyways, I would say so that's like the biggest thing that I that I feel makes me able to go to every set is that the first thing I'm looking for is what does this set, you know, need from me? What does this director and DP need from me rather than like how do I work? And that was really hit home because of that experience. Now, you know, I work on a lot of sets where it's like hard to tell what people need because maybe they don't know how to say what they need, but you know, it's kind of our job to watch and listen. That's why I always and I even got it on this deal that I'm negotiating now, which is rare like I just asked I said, Let me you guys, let me be on the Tech Scout. Like I it you know, it's it's rare. It's it's it's it's it's somewhat common in in ⁓ movies, pretty rare in television, very rare and multiple season episodic. But I'm like, you know, you've got you've hired this directing, producer, show runner who's gonna do half the episodes. You've got, you know, you've got a really talented D P. Let me listen to these guys for three to four days, like you know and and and ⁓ their guys in this sense, but in on on this job. but let me listen to these people because you know it's like it's it's always a benefit in some way. So it's a great litmus test too. It's like, you know, the the green MMs story. It's like that's like my there's like there's certain green MMs moments. If you're talking to a UPM and they're like their head's gonna explode when you ask for like three to four days of prep instead of one as a non steady operator or or zero. Wait, and you want to be on the makeup test? Like y yeah, I'd like to meet the actors. so it's like when people respond positively or understand then it's like you have an you have an understanding of who you're working with. Yeah. Yeah. No, but ⁓ well ⁓ so let me ask you a question. Do you do you have litmus tests like that when you first get onto a set where you're trying to figure out who's who, who I can trust, what people need? Like you said, what what people need. Is there a way to figure that out or is it just is it just listening and and I think it's it's it's really just listening. And it's also like the the the the best thing about listening and there's there's there's two ways to say this. There's like the I'm gonna trick you way or just like it it but I think it's more holistic than that. The more you listen to people, whether it's the director or the DP or the actors or whoever, but in this case, because of us these three people, the more you can get what you need from people, you know, because You can frame it back to them as in the in because it's like you're trying to achieve what they want. And then, you know, some people don't have the visual language to get there, or some people are distracted by the fact that, you know, they didn't sleep or whatever it is. You know, it's like there's a million reasons why communication's not perfect on a film set. you know, it's like not everyone you work with is an accomplished auditor. So it's like it's ⁓ you know, you have to just be there and and listening because so what I'm saying is like at first I used to think of it as like I it's like this is my way to get my idea through To help us and I'm gonna sell back to you as your idea, is like a really is like a really ⁓ you know, like luckily most people that watch this just wanna be camera operators. Like I wouldn't say that broadly in public. But you know, but I but I there's a more holistic version which is just like, yeah, that's your you're in you're helping them interpret based on, you know, your own expertise. What you in that what you just said I mean, you're still doing it for the benefit of the project. I mean, your your vision may be different than someone else's, but you're not doing it for your own reasons. You're going, I think there's a better way to tell this story. And and and that's that's something I I I struggle with often. If I'm you look, if I'm working on something like I worked on with you on Ozark, to me that was a level jumping show because it's like I walk in there and within five minutes I'm listening to Bateman, even if he wasn't directing and I'm like, ⁓ my god, this is this guy's a filmmaker, like these are the type of people I want to work with. But then when you work with someone who's not Jason Bateman, And you realize like, ⁓ I can see something that you can't. Like how do you how do you d how do you deal with that when when you go, you can't see what I'm seeing? Yeah. And it's frustrating because there it's like there's gold under that rock and I'd love you to have that gold, but I'm not allowed to move the rock, you know? Right, right. It's hard. It's it's it's it's a hard thing to navigate. I mean, I could dork out about that question so much because so much of that is like You know, you want to come up with come up with the elegant solution, the cinematic solution, the the the efficient solution in in case of because often the director is suggesting, well, I want this, this, and this. So it's like, well, how do I do that efficiently? You know, ⁓ so there's no right answer. I I the I have another answer, like a s half answer to that to that question, which I think has helped me a lot, ⁓ which is something that I always think about now, still ⁓ remind myself, which is But I was working I I was I was working on a job and it was a very like ⁓ it was really good. You know, I was on B camera and the A camera operate like there was a lot of good ideas. The director was, you know, the director was ⁓ receptive to them and you know, we were everyone was working together. But you know and I and at some point like I was trying to figure something out. The director said to me, show me better, don't show me different. ⁓ And it was like, wow, that's a really good advice for a beach number operator. It's like or or when to open your mouth. It's like it's like it's like when do you when do you act take the time to think about what they want? It's like, how do I make that more efficient? If I'm gonna pitch another idea, you know, it's not saying anyone's it's subjective, right? But it's like just just take that thirty seconds and think, is my idea actually better or is it just different? Because h his point was like, Yeah, like Ari, you got great ideas. I'm happy you're here. But like I you know, we you know, it's like We gotta do an idea. You know what I mean? So it's like it's like I can't listen to everyone all the time. Because it's like it happened to be everyone was you know, the the kind of relationship where it was like the a c everyone was comfortable with each other. So it was like, you know, it wasn't any the well a lot it wasn't a lot of egos, but at the same time it's like we can't always fill the room with ideas. We have to like fill the room with ⁓ you know, filmmaking. ⁓ so I which is just like but it's just like I say that to to people all the time. It's just like, you know, it's it's subjective, but just take that beat and be like, is this better? or like You know, can I if I think about it for a minute, maybe maybe the director's idea is really good if I could just do this and like connect this shot to this shot. You know, I mean you know, and then there's just pressures for that there's directors are under pressure that we we we're we're not under, right? So it's like, you know, I did I did three days because of COVID. I did three days on a show. I guess I gotta just say people, it doesn't matter. But I with this I didn't know the director. I was covering an A camera operator who had COVID, the DP got COVID, the fur everyone Sylvester's the one guy. By the we by the time we worked, everyone had COVID. So you had a director's first day, a DP who'd never been on the show, an A operator had never been on the show, and an AD who didn't prep his episode. ⁓ my god. And we all and we kind of like we did good together, right? Because it because we didn't because like, you know, the the the number one who's one of the biggest actors, you know, of our lifetime. had COVID and when you know, so so we're doing these little like dance floor, like phone conversation runners and like just like tastefully on the Moses and like what's like and he was a New York indie guy. He's like show making and then Sly came back and it was like three cameras on Sly go. You know what I mean? So that's just that's just the reality of it too. So obviously you have to think about all that. You know, it's just what what are you you know it's this what what job are you on? Not, you know and and what and what what setups can you make art and what setups you just want three cameras at Celester Stallone. But ⁓ but yeah the idea it's like that that that you're gonna have to edit this shit. ⁓ but it's like you know so so you know show me better, don't show me different. Such good a good thought to have as an operator before you pick something. That's fantastic. No, the and the thing that I like about it that it's is it's so succinct and so true. The the the question of course becomes, and this is gonna change with every director, I would think. Right. Wh where's the line between better and different? Because my better and different my better maybe his different, you know, so there's that, right? Yeah. No, it's ⁓ it's subjective, but you just taking the beat taking the beat to examine might save you a little bit of heartache and buy you some ⁓ you know, you know, and just just buy you some goodwill but not always having a different idea. And and the thing that I often say to younger B camera operators when I see it happening is I just go over and I I sort it's the same idea but nowhere near as as as well put is I just go, you don't have to suggest everything you think of. Like, you know, it's like which is kind of the the thing of you gotta be aware of the picture here. And ⁓ you know, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. ⁓ no that's great. That's great advice. ⁓ so tell me about Ozark. What when did you come on season three? ⁓ no, I was season I was in season Ozark season one. It was my first time ⁓ I didn't know that. I I I was a B camera operator for the first season and a half. ⁓ and I went home. I mean, that was the agreement. I went home after half a season 'cause my to cause my family ⁓ to be 'cause my my family wasn't able to be in Atlanta. So I did a season and a half. ⁓ and then season three I did the outsider instead. You know, Bateman started it and he went back to Ozark. So that was my first big eight camera opportunity. And then I came back to Ozark for season four. ⁓ That's why I so I was okay, that makes sense. So but but but in a similar mode to, you know, Cutchens originally got got you know, was one of the two D Ps to start the show and you know, they brought me on as the B camera operator and I was pretty quickly, I just kind of you know, I I pretty quickly fell into shooting some second unit stuff just by gaining some trust with their first D P and already having that relationship with Pepe. ⁓ sorry, with with with Cutchins and and also building that relationship with with Pepe who shot the first block. ⁓ So yeah, I mean Ozark was, you it's where I met Ben Semenoff, who was you know, like I said, like a very, you know, just been so supportive and such a learned so much, you know, from him technically, creatively, in terms of the and great amazing operator and and now director, ⁓ full time. and you know, l and so yeah, it was like I kinda grew up on Ozark, you and it was a resume builder because the world, you know, liked it and and we you know it's the filmmaking was good, the acting was good. And it was a show that was very popular. So, you know. ⁓ that's not enough. That's it. Yeah, no. So so so tell me about so so what when I showed up there on season four and five, which we shot as one season, but they released as two, whatever it was, ⁓ and you you called me to do B camera. ⁓ I mean the thing that I remember specifically was like right off the bat you were like, ⁓ there's no till and I was like, ⁓ so we keep it like sort of sort of and and then you know, ⁓ ⁓ Sean ⁓ what was it RDP? Sean Kim, ⁓ I think on the first episode, like I was off by point one degrees or something like that. And he's like, You gotta zero it out. And I'm like, ⁓ you guys are like really serious about this. But I found it to be I found it to be actually really c I'd never been in something that had constrictions like that before. And I mean we broke it obviously when like you're low on the ground looking up, but whatever. But I I I I I'm wondering how you felt about it because I felt I was sort of like, ⁓ it's kinda cool to have these To have these constrictions that actually help tell the story because I think it actually affected the way the story was told. Was that from day one? No, it wasn't from day one. It was a Ben Seminoff thing. but and and and and and Kutchins also. But Seminoff wasn't the original A operator either. ⁓ but w he came in halfway through season one. And I'm not sure if it started in C the beginning of season two. So, I mean, the zero tilt thing is it's it's really like a ⁓ and you know, later on you told me that. even ⁓ that Gordon Willis was a you know, that we we have we talked about it after the show and you were saying there was an operator a friend of yours that worked for Gordon Willis. You know, it's it's like I work for some really talented people that really like straight lines. ⁓ but it comes from like the the the easiest reference for people is David Fincher, right? House of Cards. There was no tilting. It it the camera boomed. The line stayed straight. You know what I mean? And when and you know there's listen, I've already mangled this answer, but Yeah, I also the person who came up with who putting that in Ozark. So it's like I think there's there's talk about like, you know, Seminoff and Kutchins and Bateman talk about the idea that, you know, people are constricted within a frame. It's a people it's like it's like it's a f frame becomes a prison like a in in a drama, right? It's like it's like these there's so much pressure on all these characters and all the lines are straight and where where do you go because they look like barriers, you know, in a way. ⁓ And then of course the the common bottom thing that came out of the Zero is a is a is a great it was was a seminar solution, which he has like a whole I there's like a whole article written about it. Yeah. But ⁓ I don't know how we could explain that without visuals. Yeah, yeah. It's I don't think it's necessary. You can just ⁓ we'll f we'll we'll find a link to the article where where Ben talks about it. I I actually will put that up there because I remember when you explained it to me, I was like, Wait, I I don't understand. And it took me a long time to figure it out. But anyway, what you're talking about something people don't understand. ⁓ so ⁓ but that I mean, that must have been a dream gig as a B camera operator that first year and a half to like be in something that good. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was. I mean it was it was also just kind of finding a language. Like Bateman was not as experienced as he I he's an incredible director. ⁓ but he was really kind of learning what he liked and he would say, I'm watching this show, like, you know, watch the night of and you it's like happened to be that Seminoff and had done it and Igor who'd who'd also did House of Cards, you know, Igor Martinovic is an incredibly talented cinematographer that I've had the pleasure of working with multiple times, but you know, who who did House of Cards season two, you know, kind of the venture school and did the night of and won an ASCO work for the night of. And ⁓ you know, so that's like these these sort of visual references that we all sort of appreciate. ⁓ we were we were all kind of learning it a little bit together. ⁓ you know. And and you know, and then it's like then you go and break them. It's like then Black Rabbit becomes like a an an aggressive sort of like, how do you make something really messy and you know, but that's elegant at the same time. And it's like, you know, you you I think as Yeah, it's hard to say art saying artists soon sounds self important, but it's people who are lucky enough to make creative decisions in their in their livelihood. You know, it's like you get interested in one thing and then you get interested in breaking that thing and you know, and how can I you know, it's like how can we whatever, we're artists, how can we visually tell a story ⁓ differently? But that was the school that I kind of grew up in. So that translated really well to the outsider and you know, and just having the discipline I here's like here the thing is like and and working here's an interesting place to take this. Maybe. it's like the idea of c of being the guardian of the frame versus you know, it's like Cutchins would say if Cutchins was you know, frustrated someone's or not, whatever. Say to a B camera operator, like don't like we don't we don't move the camera to to fix this. Like move everything, you know, you move move the car. Don't move I the camera's where I want it to be. If if I want to see less car, don't pan. You know what I mean? Just move the car. Move the car. ⁓ it's like it's like the but It's a very ⁓ caffeinated way of saying like, you know, you're the photographer, you're the guardian of this frame. This is where you want the person in the window. It's like it's like you have and it's like you learn to do it like speech tests, like you it's gonna happen. So you're talking to this person, you're talking to this person, but it's like that's the frame you want. And I think unless you're really departing from that stylistically, which I'm all for, like you can make something with no marks and you can throw the camera on your shoulder, you can find something beautiful. I don't think you have to, but I think that's the litmus test is like is like, do you want You know, do you un with a new DP is like do you under and it's like do you understand how we can do this and we can get exactly what you want without compromising in the same time that that constantly compromising is gonna take us? Yeah. You know, it's like do you learn that that's what an A camera operator to like. Do you learn it's like you're like playing the piano, you know, or I don't even know what I'm saying. I'm not a musician. So it's like a flawed analogy. But it's like you're play you're you're you're you're you're ⁓ you're a better, right? It's like it's like you you have all these ingredients to make the shot. But it's you know, it's like you the shots where you want it, right? It's not you're not gonna just be like, ⁓ we can fix it by going like this. So that's like I think I think the cinematographers that I learned a lot from, you know, ⁓ think that way. ⁓ it's like I'll I'll jump I'll jump off that by by sharing this with you is ⁓ it was COVID and you called me up and said hey Would you come out and and jump on B camera on Ozark? And I probably lied to you at the time, but I hadn't seen Ozark. Right. Because I have a weird thing when something is really, really big and everybody's I tend to not want to like be part of it because I wanna like ⁓ like I'm worried it's gonna the hype's too much or whatever. I don't know why. But anyway, and I think I said I could come out for a month because of COVID and not being able to go back and forth. You were like, Why? So I came out and and first of all I think my first day on set, the two things that I were blown away by were ⁓ again, Bateman just being on a level well, actually three things I should say. Bateman being on a level that like he'd start to explain a shot like, you know, four fo four ideas in, assuming that you were already on that level. And I was just like, This is great. And then of course I I I have to add into it 'cause I can't not like you said before, watching Laura Linney was just like you're in the presence of greatness right there. It was it was it was it was awe inspiring. But the other thing was that I you and I had sort of like kept in touch over the years or whatever, but I don't know how many years were in between happy ish and and Ozark. ⁓ like ten or ten or eight or I don't know. It was it was a while, but whatever it was. and and I remembered you from Oz from Happy ish, but like, you know That wasn't like a a massively camera heavy show. It was a it was a it was a thirty minute comedy and and it was better than that by a long shot 'cause Cutchins did great work. But so I sort of remembered you and then I walked on the set and I was like, Holy crap, like you're a really amazing A camera operator. And I remember why it's so funny you were saying that about learning from me, 'cause I was like at this point where covet wise and some other things, just some shows I'd been on, I'd been like, I'm just facilitating. I'm just like pointing at stuff and shooting. I'm not creating anything. It's driving me nuts. I'm really frustrated. And then it came out on Ozark, which I'm so thankful that you called me for that, because I was like, ⁓ my God, these people are like, no, they like really care about the frame like you were talking about and don't move the car like do move the car, don't just pan and all that. And and I remember like I think day one or day two, you were setting up a shot and Mark ma Mark Catania, amazing Dolly Grip, who I've been fortunate enough to work with. ⁓ many times since and just incredible was measuring out was measuring out the the thing because you wanted the the track exactly center and I was like wow that's that's like that's pretty pretty intense and then I watched it and I was like nope that's exactly how it should be I was so and it was it like so it so made me like enjoy what we do what we what we do again because I was like these guys are taking the time to do it right. And and and by the way still being efficient. I mean you know yeah it should be so ⁓ so So it it wa ⁓ so it was it was it was it was just a really unbelievable experience to be a part of that and ⁓ and then when you when you ended up, you know, heading home and and asked me to jump into A, I was like, Absolutely, but I sort of felt like I'm not gonna do it justice the way that you do, just because my personality isn't isn't as specific about things as you are and so I tried to step into that and hopefully, you know, ⁓ hopefully continue that. But ⁓ That was it that was. Your work looked great. That was well I I think all of ours did. That was a joyous, joyous opportunity. There's no question about it. ⁓ it was it was really incredible. ⁓ did did you ⁓ I mean di w when you when you went from that onto something else that's ⁓ I mean I can't imagine that you went from that onto something that was as as high end as that. Is it hard to step onto other things that aren't run that way or do you just sort of like let things go? And go, okay, this is the this is the new the new tapestry that I'm working on. Yeah. I mean I think it's a challenge even on things that are quote run that way, like especially with different directors, like as you saw, like we'll just you know we'll say that, ⁓ for you know, fourteen episodes. I I feel like for me, I'm always I always show up with the same toolbox. Like I don't get to use it all sometimes. But like I'm just making the shots. Like it's like, you know, it's like in a way this is gonna ⁓ it's like You know, it's like you start off I mean, I I statements as they say in therapy. You I started off just like, ⁓ this this this will look cool. Like this looks cool, right? When I was twenty years old, sixteen years old, taking pictures of my friends, like and it's kinda like, well, it's like, yeah, well, this looks cool. And you know, I've learned so much. I've watched thousands of movies since and worked on a bunch of stuff and learned from, you know, great camera operators and et cetera, et cetera. So it's like I I feel like I'm utilizing I feel like that's what keeps me going, is that I'm not working on anything where I'm like where it's like so bad that I feel like I just have to throw out my toolbox. Like I'm still there, like just making the shot a little bit better. ⁓ and sometimes making the shot a lot better. Bill Dill, you know, famous ⁓ cinematographer who ran the AFC ⁓ not sorry, the AFI cinematography program for a long time. Yeah. You know, he's teaching people about camera operators because a lot of these, you know, these great young DPs go there and they come from Indies or they come from Europe and they've never worked with camera operators. Why do we work with a camera operator? This whole thing is like camera operators don't make the work faster. They make the work better. Yep. And and then the his other line is camera operators make every shot ten to ninety percent better. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So it's like, yeah, ideally, you know, or they fuck it up and then it's negative ninety percent. But like his point is like if if it's a success, you know, ⁓ you have to learn, you know, you learn So I I think that's it. It's just like, you know, you you you for me it's like I've never y you understand what each job is pretty quickly. ⁓ but you know, like it's it's physically and mentally and emotionally taxing to r to think like that on Ozark. It's not like everyone's there like, yeah. Like you know what I mean? Like it's you know, it's a big production with lots of people and you know, it's not New York, so it's ⁓ maybe it's a little easier, but ⁓ Yeah, it's like you're still if that's your goal and you're using like using that whole really beating this analogy to death, but if you're using that whole two box, then it's like yeah, it's like it's taxing. You you know, it's like regardless, it's a taxing job to work at that level. So sometimes it's nice to just like ⁓ just use a few of my tools today. You know, I'm like you know, it's like I don't know. You know, I'm not I'm not lucky enough to like be I'm not working on like I'm not working for the you know, I'm not working on the coolest, hippest You know, and I say that in a positive sense, like movies where there's like, you know, the actor who's like, you know, everything he says, you know, or she says kind of goes and we all just, you know, it's like I'm in a little bit more of a trade part of my life with like different directors. It's it's funny that you say that because Ozark was one of those shows that I remember being absolutely exhausting. And it was exhausting because it was on such a high level that that you were operating ⁓ you and I and I ⁓ everybody's operating on a high level. But like you not that you ever want to drop the ball, but like the ball is moving so fast and and and th that you you're like constantly trying to keep up with it. ⁓ which was great, but it was yeah, it was taxing. There's no question about it. It's an ex I think it's almost yeah, it's an exhaust it's just an exhausting job. Well I w so I wanna I wanna I wanna move on from that into something that I don't think enough people talk about. But first actually I wanna ask you this. ⁓ I I just need to give a little love to Ben Cutchins, who who you've worked you've worked much more than I have with, and I'm so jealous of that. ⁓ because he's just he's he's fantastic, right? Like w working with Ben is just the best. ⁓ you g ⁓ you guys kinda it sounds you guys kinda came up together. I didn't I didn't realize that. Yeah, I I met Ben, I was pulling focus on a student film, ⁓ and we were shooting in what at the time was a ⁓ kind of shady neighborhood, and now it's like, you know Yeah, you can't. But yeah. But I remember we were shooting this like kind of abandoned place and it was like a it was a she she shot the short that went on to go to con and and and sundance. But at the time, like you I just showed up, the other the the the other assistant had quit and it was like a hundred dollars a day and you know, and and I get there and and this is like Ben Cutchen Zwarya, reputable like very talented young, you know, cinematographer just from school. Like I I knew his name, but I didn't know him at all. And ⁓ the director was like crying 'cause they couldn't find live chickens, you know, for the shot or whatever. And and Ben was just kind of like sp Ben was like had put like every light that that like the school gave him through a bed sheet like in the window. I'm like, I'm just getting the camera ready, like looking around. And then I saw Ben like he kept it was a kind of a kid in a bathtub. Another kid behind talking to him. And he kept messing with this towel. Like it kept messing with this towel on the bathtub in the foreground. And you know I'll probably look at the monitor, like building the camera, like you know, and my second who like I just met 32 minutes ago, like trying to just get them to stop eating, you know, and like introduce introduce them to the slate. You know, it's like and and so like and I and finally I look at the monitor and the towel is gorgeous. This fuck this towel in the foreground. It was like the first time of my life where I was like, wow, foreground element. You know what I mean? And it was that was how I met Ben and and yeah, and we you know we became we had a lot of just mutual interests. And we spent a lot of time, you know, after nine eleven being unemployed and eating with six dollar pavelos poncheros together. ⁓ so we were friends, you know. But you know, he's just a very, you know he's obviously very talented and and we we yeah, we we've done ⁓ a bunch of we did a bunch of tiers together. ⁓ you know, meaning kind of movies under ten million dollars, and then he he he brought me along on other stuff and then you know, and that that's kind of what made me so proud of You you these moments sometimes in this industry where like your mentors become your peers. I maybe I almost like ⁓ you know, and that was sort of Boston Strangler for me to be able to come in and up with him and really have a you know, a voice, not the you know, he's a cinematographer, you know, I I I think he he would you know, he would say the same thing. but yeah, it's been a really great relationship. But you know, we both obviously try to grow as human beings along the way as well. But ⁓ well So that was the that was the movie that I want to talk about because Boston Strangler. Look, I I I watched it when it came out because of course you guys did it, so I'm gonna watch it. And I think I may have even called you afterwards and I was like, i it it is an astonishingly well made movie. That movie is so beautiful. And and I will tell you that it's one of the few movies I've I've seen where a every single frame is is particular. I mean you can t you can see that someone put thought into every frame in that movie. The movement in that movie is incredible. The I just I just texted ⁓ well I texted both of you I think the other day 'cause I watched it again. And ⁓ man, the the the use of shallow depth of field to where, you know, there's a group of people and like sh ⁓ she is the reporter is is the only one who's in focus. I mean it's it is so phenomenal. So first of all How did you get to do all of prep? Because I want to figure this out so I can do it? Well, I mean this is a particular so I this is a I I this is a very lucky situation for me because I that that director is the same director who hired me to make that documentary. ⁓ the the hip hop movie? Yeah the hip hop. Yeah, the guy who directed that is the same Yeah, so I've made So we made me me and him and Ben made Crown Heights together, which was like a two and a half million dollar tier zero that won the studio that went. Yeah, it won the studio it won the audience to where it sundance. Yeah. So I so, you know, so that's a advantage that's mean advice means nothing. So it's like I mean, I do push for prep and I get it, but in this case, it's like I met every s every Sunday, you know, we would meet me you know, during production, me and this me and Cutchins and and Matt Ruskin, the director. It's like You know, I was just ⁓ you know, I had a and I I I I came to the Tech Scouts, I sat in on a few meetings. ⁓ Yeah, so I it was just a lucky it was like I you know, it's funny 'cause at the time it was the biggest movie I'd ever worked on. You know, ⁓ and it was like we had this great so so it wasn't I didn't but it was like I went to work with my two friends and just tried to make every shot better. Like it was actually like a kind of an incredible situation for me because, you know, I'd never you know, the group crew like amazing. It's like I I don't you it's like not that I I've worked with plenty of good groups, but it's like this is This is a you know, Hollywood movie. This is a fifty plus million dollar movie. You got good people. And it's like so I just was like ⁓ I actually felt like I could just concentrate on my lane and I just happened to have a bit of you know, I happen to be able to sort of ⁓ be even more supportive of of Ben and and Matt because of my rel personal relationship with other men also because we spoke the similar visual language. ⁓ You know, there were lot of they they had all these references and and a lot of stuff thought out. And then they also have the ability to pivot and you know, ⁓ and bend into such great work with the b you it's like I I was talking to somebody, ⁓ Liam Sinnett, who's an incredible focus puller and he was talking about phenomenal. I it's a I mean the yeah, th there was never a focus problem and we shot wide open sixty-five. But Liam says it really well. It's like it's like there's certain DPs that are just very good at that. It's like sometimes you see low depth of field and it's like s it looks like someone just bought a five D. And sometimes you see low depth of field and looks like art. And it's just like it goes to show that it's like, you know, it's like you have to be very good at your job first and foremost before you start shooting at a one nine on a sixty five millimeter chip, thinking that's the solution. So so you know, Ben is very good at low depth of field, Igor is very good at low depth of field. You know, it's just like they're they're really good at lighting and they're really specific about their choices. Really good at lighting is not probably not the the word, but you know, they're excellent excellent they're cheering. But yeah. But yeah, so it's like it's so it's so it's it was a lot of things came together. We had incredible gaffer on that movie who was just so detail oriented and with Ben a really, you know great Frank Montesanto, a great key grip who's you know and Josh Dreyfus is the gaffer's name. those are all sort of artists in their own way. ⁓ that really responded to like, you know, it was like you know, because there'd be moments where Frank would just like, What and be like, What the fuck is going on? Because it's like and it's like When I was able to be that voice because I did all the prep and I also and I had, you know, and and I was shooting second unit and I was doing the it's I I was like I can tell I can tell you what's going on. Yeah. You know, so it was like it people responded to that energy and wanted to make a good you know, Maddie's a great leader. Well, I it's it's funny you say that because I think I think th that's like that's something really important because if you can explain what's going on, it means, ⁓ this isn't chaos and this isn't for no reason. This is actually hard, but there's a reason for this and you may not see it, but here it is. And that actually changes the whole the whole conversation. Maybe that's the way you pitch, maybe that for all the operators out there, maybe that's like a good way to pitch being a pr being in pr in prep. 'Cause there's so many moments where it's like the eleventh hour or you know, whatever where people are just like, What the fuck is going on? And it's like if well if you like know what's these people kind of want and need out of everything and that haven't are not, you know and it's like I think operators do that anyways, whether you prep or not. But a good operator like knows what we need. Yeah, but it's just like it helps you It helps you be that person in moments of stress also to just kind of convey what's going on. So basically if I if I pitch, if you can get me into prep, I can possibly stop an insurrection on the crew thirty days into the film. That might be that might be the way to go. ⁓ but you were talking about i y you said something really interesting about the shallow depth of field and it made me think of there are people who who will use shallow depth of field because it's cool and they like the look. Yeah. And then there's stuff like Boston Strangler where it's used to tell the story. And it's used so specific and and the the the shot that actually sh always there's a lot of shots in there that are I mean, actually almost all the shots in there impress me. But ⁓ the shot that really impressed me with the with that was ⁓ what's what's what's the lead character's name? What's her name ⁓ her name, ⁓ the reporter. I can't think of her name. ⁓ my god, I have not Kieran Ida. Yeah. Anybody who hasn't seen this, by the way, I believe I think it's on Hulu, but go watch this movie. ⁓ unfortunately you should see it in a theater, but ⁓ you probably can't right now. ⁓ but anyway, there's this point where they basically g she wants to do, you know, she wants to do an actual story and they're like, No, you gotta go over there with the ladies and do the like, you know, the fashion and this. And there's a there's a shot that's a slow push in To a group of women on the table, and everybody's either standing or sitting with their back to you, and she's sitting, and she's the only one who's facing from low down, and it's only focused on her. And it is just such a brilliant it I mean, it like I look at that and it's like out of a Kira Kurosawa's h ⁓ high and low. I mean, it is such a phenomenally composed show. It's funny that you say that because it's like it actually, you know, it's ⁓ that sh was a shot that all three of us, the director, DP, and and operator worked really hard on that one shot which was fairly simple and it was part of a sequence, part of a montage really about her not, you know, not getting what she wants. And it was it's that particular shot that really goes you know, it's like it speaks to like or as my friends as as Matt says, g good food takes time to prepare, you know, sometimes. And we kept moving the desks and like and Matt who had come to the point, we were this was later on in the film and it you know, it's like it's like it's people are worn down. It's winter, it's all it's winter Omicron. It's like Everyone had COVID, we're pushing back. It's like we're sh winter in Boston. We're finally on the stage. Like and we're we're up against it. They you know, they cut some days like right before production. ⁓ you know, so it's like and it was and it's we're at the point where we're like, we're trusting each other and we're trying to move quickly. And that shot was taking forever. And I wasn't exactly sure what Matt wanted, and Cutchins wasn't sure exactly what Matt wanted. But as it came together, we both were working so hard to keep making it better as we realized what it was. And I mean I grip did like talking about it like it like it was the Berlin Wall or like some but there was something but like it it it just became this moment where like the three of us sort of like you know like just wanting it to be good and ⁓ was just really like exempl like the just the collaboration, sorry, was really exemplified in that shot. And I do and I and I I used that shot recently as a as a reference for something that I'm helping my friend animation project. I was just like yeah like like this like it was like a lunchroom scene and I was like yeah like this. It's about this person with this crowd. Well, and the thing is it like you said, and I don't mean this in a negative way, but in in in the breadth of the s the the film and in i in that scene, well that montage sequence, like you said, it's not really a montage, but it sort of is. ⁓ it's really kind of a nothing shot i in the larger picture. But at the same time, it's it it's one of those things that it says so much because of how it's framed and and and I'll I'll put it on the I'll put it on the page. ⁓ but I will say ⁓ There's a new thing. We moved we sorry. We had these really heavy desks and we kept moving them. Like I would move them, Matt would move them, and Shawnee, I don't know Shawnee's last name. Wherever you are, Shawnee, it's like this young set deck from Boston. I thought he was gonna lose his mind. We I bought that guy so much craft beer. He like he was like I didn't even said he said thank you. And I didn't even think I wanted him to say thank you. You know what I mean? Like it was like it was like, Yeah, here you go. He's like, All right man. Like it was one of those shots where it just like, you know, it took a lot to get to where we wanted, but And every shot shouldn't be that way, but it was. No, but but but I definitely from you telling me that, I can see how a lot of people on set would be like, Why the hell are we taking so much time? But in the final like I said, look, I pulled that out because it is such an amazing shot and it tells the story so well. I but ⁓ I think the imp the important thing about those things is is like none of you gave it gave in, right? You kept on you kept on beating your head against it until it worked and then it's like, ⁓ this is what we worked for, which is the you know, that's sort of the the great stuff of it. But I you you you mentioned happy accidents. Can you remember anything specific from that film? Or because to me every everything in there is so it just seems so specific. Well, I think we you know, we had a really good idea of Matt's ta like Ben and I yeah. I mean, it was easy to be specific when you have three people who are like like minded. It's you know, it's easy to be specific if you have a director who's just very specific. Matt was ⁓ Matt Matt was specific with his references and then doing, you know, just working his ass off to make this big movie, you know. and and it was just, you know, as you said, and I I really had a window into how how how stressful that could be and how how well he handled that. So it's like he trusted Ben and I to sort of bring that aesthetic up. So it was just like, you know, we're always working towards the same thing and it's you know, it becomes easy to pivot slightly when you're already starting with, you know, like you're already starting with like a B plus by the time the Dolly track goes down, like you just always trying to make it better. We had a really fantastic dolly grip, ⁓ easy, Eric Zucker, in from LA. Yeah. ⁓ great. Who but also like e you know, easy ⁓ is like one of these guys like does the pickle and the and the swing on the crane, like he's just like capable of anything. But like he also was like, ⁓ like, you know, the zero tilt, like you know, stuff was was was a little new and but you know, he went from I mean, easy can do anything, but it's also like to see him sort of then buy into the aesthetic as well as as we move on and and and sort of, you know, become part of like part of the dramatic timing of everything and and his, you know, in in an aesthetic that wasn't sort of his to begin with. sorry. So happy accidents. I mean th there's another shot that I'm proud of just because it was one of these things where it's like it's a shot of when Bill Camp ⁓ the commissioner is arriving. It's like a long lens master. He drives up he gets up in a car and he gets out of a car and we're diallying across as he's walking towards reporters. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, and it was like something where the yeah, it was like i I remember like my the third take being like, Wow, this is really great. Like I it made me think of like he was getting in the car and people like chasing him, made me think of like Willie Mays with like little kids running after him. Like it was like this period piece. I don't know, like I it was very like self-congratulatory. But the thing about that shot is like we were up against it. It was like this super cold day. And there's all these police cars, like don't ever work with period cars. like things won't start and like we're like we're we're behind. It's like it's yeah, it's our big crane day, and it's like so we got through all the crane stuff in front of the police station, ⁓ and then we had the shot and it was like and it was it was one of these moments as an operator where really knowing both of the director and deep this wasn't always like this. I mean, these guys are you know, I'm I'm not the person who who made this movie, but for this shot, you know, it was like ⁓ You know, it's like Ben wanted to be wide as DP's like a lot of, you know, some DPs it's like he wants to show it, right? Which makes sense. And Matt's like and Matt was like kind of pushing to use longer lenses. And it's like that's the beautiful thing about that format, is like you step back, that's an eighty-five mil lens, but it's an eighty five mil lens on a sixty five mil chip. Wow. On a sixty five mil chip. Yeah. Yeah. But it's like so, but then we we all it was this discovery, I was like, guys, long lens master. Like, like just let's put the camera here. We we looked at the few fighters and they were everyone's like, Yeah, yeah. And it just really came together with with what Cutchins was doing with the depth of field and the layers and and what Matt and then Matt was got really inspired and was really like riding the second seconds about the background and it's just one of these things where it's like and it of course my f my you know, just and myself it's like they could have been they didn't need they cut it. They they cut it up. It didn't need to be cut up. I mean they cut to like a reporter saying something. Or whatever, they barely cut it up. And it was just one of these moments where it was like, because I understood what both of these guys, you know, sort of wanted out of this moment in a moment where we were really behind and we didn't have time to shoot a wide and coverage, we were able to make something, you know, great. ⁓ yeah. Because of everyone's contributions. But I was just like, yeah, we'll split let's just back up on a longer lens. And you got you'll everyone's gonna get everything. It it it totally comes through and I'll tell you what, I I finished watching that movie and I was like, man, this is like this is like a movie. And I don't even know what that means, but it's like it felt like it was an old school, they took their time Everything's by design. It just it just is a great, great movie. Everybody should see it. ⁓ yeah, I was fortunate enough to see it on the big screen. But ⁓ yeah. Yeah. ⁓ I sadly was not. But ⁓ what do you think the hardest part of being an A camera operator is? Not sure what the hardest part is, but for me, I think just you know, it is a job that my my strength of being an A being a camera operator in general was always sort of having a decent eye and caring. And the technical came later, right? So it was like I needed to learn the wheels to not embarrass myself, you know, on a crane. I needed to learn these things. But like I came from qu I I wanted to be a director, like everyone ⁓ millions of people will tell you right now. ⁓ you know, so it's like I came from wanting to be a storyteller. And and then since I didn't come up as an assistant, I mean I did assist for a while, but since I didn't come up as an assistant, like I had this great experience, not that there's anything wrong with that, of of working all these documentaries and different stuff and sort of finding interesting frames. So it's like You know, I I had a I had a decent eye and I cared a lot. And it's like, you know, and and that was the basis for it. So it's like that's still kind of what gets me through the day. Everything else I've learned about you know, and and and and sometimes the hard way about, you know, staying out of political hot water and and and this that and the other thing, you know, ⁓ I just say it's it's an it's emotional for me it's it's it's it's emotionally, it's physically, it's mentally taxing, it's it's ⁓ you know, and as as one gets older and has families or whatever, or just has like a really interesting hobbies, it's like, you know It's a tough job to to do for more than I don't know how people do it ten, eleven months a year. ⁓ I don't think anybody does it ten, eleven months a year anymore. So that's not a problem. You talked about, I mean, we we mentioned Laura Linney, Jason, Jason Bateman, just working with amazing actors. And you it's funny, you sort of touched on it, but and I've kind of said it before here. What always amazed me was I mean, I don't think I've ever worked with an actor actor who's as prepared as Laura is. I mean, her process was just unbelievable. And and then Jason would come in and be you know, be like, Wait, what scene is this? Did I just get out of prison and I'm here? Okay, great, let's go. And they would both knock it out of the park, but from two different ⁓ just amazing. But have you have you and you don't have to give any names, have you worked with ⁓ any actors who were tough to deal with as an A camera operator? And if so, how how do you how do you go about that? 'Cause I mean the two of them were totally approachable and totally, you know, in the process and everything. Yeah, no, I've been really lucky. And I think that and I think the only thing that I've that I've helped that luck is just like in the last few years, as I like project to project, like if I, you know, I look back the last two years, it's like, you know, Michelle Williams, Ann Hathaway, Dakota Johnson, Jude Law. Like it's like it really is it I'm really lucky to to to work with people at this level. ⁓ Jamie Fox, ⁓ who is a trip and and incredibly talented. You know, I think it's just that back to that, like everyone needs something different. You know you it's just you know, you know when you can get, you know, what you need out of someone in terms of hitting a mark. You know when to to not ask. You know, I I haven't had anyone I don't, you know, ⁓ I've been really lucky, you know. But I but I do think the only way the only thing that's helped my luck it's and it's I think I've been really lucky really, but the only thing that's helped my luck, you know, being on quality projects, but also just ⁓ just knowing you're reading the room and and and knowing what different people want. You know, Jude was great. Like Jude, you know, Jude needs to get there. Like he needs to talk about it. He needs to do a standard thing. He needs he needs for in this in your force. And then he's like, okay, well what do you need you it's like what do you need? Like how can I make it better? You know what I mean? Like, okay. Yeah. This is your mark that we proud to talk about. it's like, you know, it's just like and you just know you you know you know when. And it's like but it's like and then ⁓ and people just you know, it's like it's good and people see you care too. It's like good when the actors see you care. It's like you don't have to be loud, you don't have to be you know in charge, but there's these moments where like they see you creatively caring, you know, and and that that really helps. ⁓ you've you've obviously camera operated quite a bit. You've sh you've sh you've ⁓ shot a bunch of things and you've actually directed a movie. ⁓ you have a you have a favorite between those ⁓ as far as ⁓ what's ⁓ what what what's your favorite position or is it does it vary? No. I mean I think it ver I there's just so much I mean I think One of the things that I do well is just see the sort of see the good and bad and and everything, you know. maybe. ⁓ yeah, I mean camera operating is great, you know, you go home afterwards. You know, it's like I mean, I do a little more I I I try to read the sides the night before and and then I try to, you I try to get on prep and I try to, you know, and try to think about the script, but like I don't have to, you know, and and and I think I think I have had some D Ps, you know, ⁓ try to support my my moving up. ⁓ whether it's filling in for an episode, you know, I've actually been hired for a couple episodes on shows that then subsequently got canceled. But ⁓ you know, I the attraction I think to that is just prepping, you know, you know, and and and ⁓ and I've had that experience because in and just the idea of being able to really think it out and not trying to c you know, not being so on the spot thinking of things, you know, and and also just being home for dinner. You know, that's why a a good friend of mine who's a great D P ⁓ Brian Burgoyne, who I've worked with for years as well. He's like, yeah, you know, you should do that. Like I filled in for him for a week during COVID and really well. He's like, he's like, you know, and he's like he's like, you already know that you can do this creatively, but ⁓ you get to be home for dinner, you know, when you prep. And I prep almost as much as I shoot at this time in my career. So I was like, ⁓ that's interesting. ⁓ so like do that the attraction then during you directing I it's an to me it's like directing is like the most like being a kid 'cause like I never like I you know, I just never assumed I could ever be a director. I mean be directing is hard, man. It's like you have to have answers for everything all the time. You just like it's just like I I see the fatigue on young directors and and you know, and it's it's like you know, it's like you always have to have an answer for just so many questions all the time. And it's it's not it's not easy. a co directed with a with a lifelong friend, ⁓ or a few shorts and and eleven fifty five. And that's the wholly different. It's not even really worth discussing, but ⁓ an interesting relationship. ⁓ as well. But that said, because you mentioned it. That movie is ⁓ I I didn't know what to say earlier. Is it ⁓ can you see it somewhere? Yeah, you can it' eleven fifty five the movie. I mean it's on Amazon, it's on some other stuff. I think it's I think it's free. I think it's on Prime now. Yeah we w we you know I we ⁓ yeah it has a very good score on Rotten Tomatoes. ⁓ my son is not allowed to watch it yet just 'cause the language to ⁓ did look up the Rotten Tomatoes score for me. So shout out Henry. ⁓ you got a little street cred there. That's good. Yeah. So Yeah. I mean I've been I've been really lucky to do to do those things. Ary, this has been fantastic. I mean I know that you and I ⁓ actually I can't wait till the next time I come into New York 'cause we'll go to a a a coffee shop and sit and talk for another two hours, just the two of us about filmmaking and whatnot. ⁓ anybody who's listening before I ⁓ ask Ari my final question, go watch the Boston Strangler. Or Boston Strangler, there's no the in front of it. ⁓ and ⁓ and actually ⁓ there's a new web page, ⁓ there's a new page on the website ⁓ called The Blocking. And I don't even know if you know this, Ari, but ⁓ that scene that we talked about, which is that slow push into her sitting there, is in there. And also ⁓ the opening sequence where the first murder takes place, which is just so well laid out. Both of those are in there because I think they're just exceptional examples of ⁓ blocking and staging. ⁓ but ⁓ so thank you. It's been a pleasure. ⁓ I hope to see you soon. Ben Cutchins, if you're listening to this, ⁓ my dream is that you get some project and you call Arian to be the A camera operator and me on to be the B camera operator and we all go and make great great images together. So ⁓ let's let's get on that. and ⁓ but I'm gonna leave you with the question that I leave everybody with, which is advice for someone getting in the industry today and or ⁓ you know something you've learned along the way that you found to be helpful that you wish you knew earlier on. Yeah. Thank you, Dave. ⁓ thanks for having me. I have actually two pieces of advice. And one is very ⁓ I got kind of like a lowbrow, highbrow. ⁓ the first the the first one, ⁓ Tony Ponty, who's ⁓ kind of a legendary New York camera assistant, ⁓ definitely does no idea who I am. But when I was very young, he was hosting an open house at a rental house and he was telling we're group group of us really young assistants were gathered around and he said, you know, if something goes down on set, he's like, You just you you need to remember who who your boss is. You know, who either who hired you or who's directly above you. And r and remember how how that relationship is going to reflect. And this is something I haven't always listened to. ⁓ and I and I wish I had. You know, ⁓ no, because I think it's it's you know, listen, I mean it's it's like in the moment when you're when you're someone who really cares about something and you see something and you want something to be better and you think this person could be different. It's like all those things can be true. But in terms of longevity in this business, especially in New York City, I think it's a I think it's a really important before you act based on, you it's like it you can interpret this however you want, whether it's like, you know, it's just like whether it's like the the the you see the people that are trying to impress, you know, someone outside of their department for some reason or just if something goes down and you don't know what to do, you know, it's like think about if you're the second AC, think about the first AC. If you're the operator, think about the D P, you know, think about that relationship. Because those are relationships, you know, and and I've been lucky enough to create, you know, really good creative relationships with with with above the line folks. But at the same time, I think it's really important to remember ⁓ and and and not just politically, 'cause it's just it's just how it works. Like we're it's a very top down, like we talked about the six minute increments, is the very the trucks become smaller trucks which become carts. Like it's a very it's an industry. so and with that leads me to my second point of advice, which is ⁓ it's a little more hurtfelt, if you will, which is that it is an industry. And I think a lot of people in the camera de I can only really speak for the camera department, but I think a lot of us get into it whether it's you know, whether it's from film school or it's from Gang or working at a rental house. It's like There's there's a level of of artistry that that exists in all you know, the level of having a heart of an artist that exists in so many of us. And I would just say that ⁓ in life, this is really just life advice, but I think our pertains to the film industry is like learn how to nurture that part in you, whether it's making a film with your friends on the side or becoming a really good woodworker or, you know, volunteering, you know, ⁓ you know, at a you know, at a charity. It's like whatever feeds you your heart or you know, or shooting pictures, you it's like we used to used take portraits from our friends' basketball teams, like, you make the high school make the kids of the high school basketball team look like they're on the front of ⁓ a magazine and whatever kind of nurtures that art of an artist that led you to want to do this with your life, the film industry is not going to nurture that. Like you might travel the world, you're gonna make some great friends, you're gonna have some great experiences, you're gonna work really long hours, but you know, protect your heart ⁓ to some degree, ⁓ is is really I think something that ⁓ I've tried to do but would have, you know, It'd been nice to know also ahead of time. Anyways, thank you, Dave, ⁓ so much for ha having this forum for us to kind of all nerd and therapy out about. Take care. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.