Dave C: This episode was recorded in July of twenty twenty three. On today's podcast, we'll talk about transitioning from a small market to a larger market, learning from your mistakes, Glee, American Horror Story, and of course, Outsider Outside Art. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website theop.io is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Like it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Roll away. Victor 30 Echo Tech 2. Camera set. Hello and welcome back to the OP, the podcast where we talk about operators and operating and the art of visual storytelling. ⁓ I am your host, Dave Komitis, and I am very thankful yet again to be ⁓ coming to you live. Well, live at the moment anyway, ⁓ from Panavision Woodland Hills in their amazing ⁓ theater, which sounds better than the laundry room in my house. ⁓ so I appreciate them. Thank you to Panavision for allowing me to be here. Today I have an amazing guest, ⁓ Andrew Mitchell, who ⁓ we've known each other for a long time. ⁓ Andrew ⁓ is presently a director of photography, but for years and years, ⁓ maybe I won't say years and years, for for a bit. was ⁓ an A-Camera steady camera and honestly one of the best in the business. ⁓ as a director of photography, his credits include ⁓ nine one one Lone Star, American Horror Story, Ratchet Hollywood, ⁓ and as ⁓ among others, and ⁓ as a A-Camera steady camera operator, Ratchet The Prom, The Politician, American Crime Story The People vs. OJ Simpson, which he won ⁓ SOC Award ⁓ Operator of the Year Award for, as well as Versace. ⁓ feud, ⁓ T V show that ⁓ a couple of you might have heard called Glee, I think it's called, ⁓ which he also won the ⁓ SOC Operator of the Year Award for, ⁓ rightfully so. ⁓ and ⁓ two of my personal favorites, High School Musical Two and Three, because they explained some of the questions left over after High School Musical One, ⁓ a lot of other things. A great camera operator, a great study camera operator, a great DP and and a great guy. ⁓ Andrew, thank you for being here. Thank you, Dave. It's good to be here. See you again. It's pretty cool. We've known each other for probably a couple of decades. A little bit. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, Andrew and I actually met on ⁓ w w what was it called? ⁓ it was like ⁓ Lonesome Dove something. It was ⁓ Dead Man's Walk. Dead Man's Walk. Larry McMurtry novel, lonesome dove series in Texas, yeah. West Texas. Yes. In the middle of nowhere. I was the ⁓ was I the B camera operator? Steady camera or was the A camera. Yeah. B camera. ⁓ 'cause ⁓ I think Eddie operated A. Eddie Eddie Pay, the director of photography, was operating A, I was B and I came in and met Andrew and he was the focus puller and actually the two things I remember about that show was ⁓ I I got my first new steady cam on that show, the Pro. Do you remember when that came in? I remember that. It was like It was a big Spanking new. It was like it had that new that new car smell. And when you opened it up. Not a scratch. Yeah. And I remember pulling it out and ⁓ and and using it for the first time. It was exciting. And then ⁓ I remember on the weekends you asked me if I would ⁓ show you how to how to operate study camp. So I just want to take the moment now to basically take credit for your entire career. If that's all credit goes to you. Thank you very much. There are checks that are ⁓ coming, that'd be fine too. ⁓ no, but Andrew, ⁓ yeah, we had a lot of fun there and then he went on to become and actually the other thing is I remember you bought a Mustang. Am I crazy? You're not crazy, I did. You bought a Mustang down in Texas and drove it back to Utah. Yes. Like a sixty eight. What a crazy thing to do while you're on location. It was a ⁓ white sixty six convertible. Yeah. I've had Mustangs all my life. So that was one of them and Was it just that like it was in excellent condition and you found it there? It was in good condition and I thought it would be great to have a vehicle and it was the right price and anyway, it was I did have some problems with it, but I d I remember that well. That was ⁓ that was that was a fun show. It's also ⁓ the ⁓ I think as as I remember it was the fourth lowest rated miniseries of all time or something like that. The fourth lowest? Something like that. And ⁓ yeah, I didn't know that. I have the jacket still and I wear it sometimes and people are like, Wow, you worked on that movie? I'm like, No, it's not Dead Men's Walk, it's Dead Men Walking. It's a very different thing. Anyway, ⁓ total total sidebar there. But ⁓ so Andrew, ⁓ tell me how'd how'd you get to where you are? What's your story? How did I get okay, like from the beginning? Well, you don't have to come from birth, you know. You can you can start in whatever you want, but you how'd you get into the film industry? Camera work. Yeah, you grew you grew up in Utah, which is, you know, not quite the burgeoning film community, I think. Right. Yeah. So industry wise started in Utah. I would claim East Coast growing up. ⁓ avid skateboarder started VHS movies, you know, skateboard videos back in the eighties, of course. And ⁓ actually doing skateboarding and motion sports I think helped a lot during learning how to be a steady cam operator, learning the flow of a shot. So anyway, I'll credit that for a little bit. ⁓ so coming out of high school, I I w I knew I wanted to get into cinematography. I went to Brigham Young University. I studied there for a little bit. I did an internship at at the ⁓ BYU studio. Did you study film though? I was studying film. Like there's a there's an actual program was a ⁓ was a program there. And I went into boot camp, which was just menial labor to kind of weed out the ones ⁓ that they didn't want. Nice. And ⁓ went through that, ⁓ did some school, took two years off to do a a religious mission, came back and ⁓ there was an opening in the camera department and jumped on that like fresh. It was opening in the camera department where? At the BYU studios. ⁓ okay. Gotcha. So they were they were in connection with the LDS church, which would do these videos, you know. ⁓ okay. All right. Yeah. And so I interned with them for free for a while. learned a few skills and then they started paying me. What were you doing as an intern just like so as an intern I was you know, I'd go fetch stuff. I would they taught me how to load. So I learned how to load and ⁓ So this was film. Carry equipment around. Yeah, this is film back in the sixteen millimeter or this would have been ⁓ yeah, mostly sixteen at the time. Cool. And it was a good experience. Yeah. It was it was it was I So here's a story. I'm on set for like the very first time. And I had gone on my mission to France and there was somebody who was a stand in who was French. And so I thought that would just be great to like chat in Fran in French, right? And the first assistant came over and he's like, The D P says you're a talker. He doesn't like talkers. So from that moment, less than less I was the quietest person in the world. Everything like the first assistant had little hand signals for everything, like long eyepiece, you I'm I'm holding my finger by my eye. ⁓ different you know, all the hand signals for numbers for the slate, for ⁓ my gosh, I was the quietest little mouse. Anyway, I wanted to be in the industry. So Yeah. And then that thing that you were working on was was a feature or a No, these were just like instructional videos. Little videos, little motivational videos and commercials and you know. Gotcha. Okay. ⁓ anyway, so that's where I got my break. And then I met some people and ⁓ ended up ⁓ leaving school ⁓ when I got offered a job as a second assistant. and I figured that's what I that's the job I wanted when I graduated and I already had it. So I chased that. Uta ⁓ this is in Utah, so I had moved there from Maryland. And Utah was full of like movies of the week. Everything that they didn't have the money to shoot in LA would go to Utah. Gotcha. It was like the non union work. We don't have a big enough budget. Let's go to Utah. We'll shoot it up there. So anyway, I did my round of that. ⁓ met some great people. I met Mark Emery Moore there. He was also a mentor in terms of Steady Cam. Yep. Don Muirhead as well. and I got interested in Steady Cam. So I was a first assistant by then I met you, Dead Man's Walk. And it was probably shortly after that that I started saving money and buying pieces. As a first assistant, I'm like, Okay, I got my post buying pieces and putting things together. I got my post. I got my monitor. I mean, if the steady cam monitor was like fifteen grand back then. It was a different world. And also it wasn't like you you could just go on the internet and buy it. Right. Someone had to be selling one and I don't even know how we found out about stuff actually, now that I think about it. Exactly. It was like anyway, so bits and pieces and and so forth. And then I got this huge break. Once I had all my gear together, I shot one free commercial for like Utah Department of Transportation or something. And then ⁓ Touch by an Angel was in season four. Four or f yeah, I think season four. Was that a Utah show? And that was a Utah show. Okay. And it had become popular. and I went in and I talked to the UPM and and I'm like, hey, I'm available. And he's like, Great, let's do it. And I think he just wanted to pay somebody less. He didn't want to bring in an operator from LA. Sure. Didn't want you know, there's a there's a huge cost to that, right? Yeah, yeah. And so Where were there not other opera seticam operators in Utah? Like were you an anomaly? ⁓ there were I wanna say there were three. one I never knew. I knew a name and everybody was like, ⁓ he's in LA. I I've never met him. Okay. ⁓ the other one ⁓ I had assisted for and he was just busy. Yeah. And then the third was not very good. So I fit I fit the gap. Yep. You know. And so anyway, I got on the show and it was I I was terrible. As a full time study cam operator. As a as a study cam operation. Like B camera, study camera or or just how you learned? That's how I learned. Well, I've heard your stories too about running around in your apartment. So I was I was doing the same in in my backyard. you know, a magazine shaped like a you know, a two by four shaped like a mag and a thing and a camcorder on top and you know, walk forward, walk backwards, you know, my wife being my subject and way. And then through the story through six seasons of Touched by an Angel ⁓ wow to You did six seasons. I did six seasons, yeah. I had no idea. That went forever. That was actually I mean People in LA might not be into it, but the breadbasket of America love that show. It was big. It was like top ten for No, I I knew it was around for a while. I just didn't know you did that many seasons of ⁓ okay. So by the time you came out of that, you you'd figured it out. I was well. Yeah. We we think we figured it out until another five years go by and they were like, ⁓ yeah, I wasn't very good back then either. And then you go another five years and like, ⁓ I should have been better. You convinced yourself that you figured it out. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Good. anyway, so that brought, you know That was my that was one of my big breaks. Yeah. I've had a couple. Yeah. And ⁓ I in terms of what I why I got into steady cam is I think similar to what I've heard you say, which is like when you see it for the first time and you're like, that's cool. Yeah. Like I want to do that. Yeah. Right. And I think part of my personality trait is I like to do stuff that's different, that's hard. Other people can't do it. You know? Yeah. I'll I'll like I'll do that. Yeah. Watch me. Right. And so steady cam is one of those things. Like not everybody can put it on. And even the people who can put it on, not not every one of those people can actually make it work. A hundred percent. Yeah. So ⁓ So you did touch by an angel. And then you came out of that. So touched by an angel and then I went right over to Everwood. ⁓ which is a Warner Brothers show, Tree Williams. ⁓ recently passed. Sort of remember that. ⁓ So that was a couple of years on that show. And that was in Utah also. That was also in Utah. The trick about Everwood was they had had a bad Steady Cam experience. And we've probably all ⁓ Steady Cam operators may have run into those producers or directors who've had a bad experience and they're like, I hate Steady Cam. It's it's so wonky, it's you know, the horizon, blah, blah, blah. And ⁓ to jump back a little self deprecating here, but to jump back to Touched by an Angel I worked with, Timothy Van Patton. Who famous director, Sopranos, and went on to do all wonderful man, family man, great person. Love him, but he nicknamed me Lost Horizons, which is a pretty that's a pretty hard ⁓ nickname to to take. But honestly, like the DP telling me that I'm a talker, him telling me Lost Horizons made me double down. Right. Okay, I'm gonna get rid of that nickname. Yep. Right. So on Everwood, they had had a bad experience with Steady Cam. And so every steady cam move had to be done as if we laid dolly track. So it had to be like straight. Yeah. Or dance floor or something like that. So there there were no like r circular moves. It was all angles. Yeah. Right. And so when we walked down the sidewalk, there was never a frontal shot because they'd have to walk over the track. It was always like a raking angle. And ⁓ it was the goal to never let anybody know that we did it on steady cam. Wow. Right. So that was high standards for that show. But then it ⁓ it was also one of those things that was a challenge. Sure. You know? Yeah. Don't let the producers know we're on steady camp well and that's that's ⁓ the guy who taught me Steady Camp, Bob Crohn, used to say the irony of what we do is if we do it well, nobody knows we ever did it. So it's that that thing of like, is this steady cam show? That's what you want people to do, right? Right. As opposed to like, God, that's a steady cam show. Right. You don't know it's You don't know until you see it done poorly. Yeah. But I love the fact that like if someone told me there was a show Everwood that was just hardcore crazy about how the steady cam looked, I never would guess 'cause you'd think it's just I don't I mean, I don't really remember it, but I sort of remembered it being out there and it you know, it kinda didn't make a huge mark. It was just one of those one is shows that kinda came and went. But that's great. And so you just had to dial in your your your technique on that. That was yeah, that was definitely like a a technique deal. And and The D P like checking up, ⁓ don't do that move. It looks like you're not on a dolly. Wow. I'm like, ⁓ okay. That's great. You know. So I think that that show really dialed in the precision and the tech. Well, it set the bar high, right? Definitely. Yeah. And I had to my bar was set high because in order to get a job in Utah from a crew that came from LA, you had to be Yeah. Very good. You had to be two times, three times better than the person they would bring in for them to hire you. Yeah. The local guy. The local. Yeah. It's like, ⁓ we're getting a local crew. ⁓ can we bring our own key grip or gaffer or you know, operator? No, that's true. So and you know, same thing said, now that I work in LA and I travel, same thing goes through my mind. Sure. You know it's do they know how things work? And the the irony is like look th the obviously I have that too. But then there's 'cause 'Cause behind that is well, if they're the good, why don't they live in LA? But now of course I'm like, well, I know why they don't live in LA. They're smart to live there. They're probably the best people in the world. They've made a life choice. Yeah. That I haven't realized. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. So and I never thought about the fact that yeah, you were the local guy, which is has its own stigma. So you you gotta step up and prove to them the local guy actually knows what he's doing. You had to you had to be way better. Yeah. So and I and somebody was in a scouting van with I'll say some of the authorities. That's fine. Some of the some of the leaders of the of the show. Yep. And they actually heard and this is a little self tuting, but ⁓ it's ⁓ it was a new director, and they're like, ⁓ your steady cam operator is really good. This is on Everwood? This is on Everwood. Okay. Your steady cam operator is really good. And the response was don't tell him because he'll leave the show and get something better. Don't tell him. I don't I I don't I've have nobody to compare myself with in this in the town, right? Hey, look, as long as they think that, you may not think that, but as long as they think that that's great. So I found that out later. And so how many how long did you do that? That was two seasons. Wow. Okay. And then I ended up leaving that show Difference of opinion on certain things. That happens. It's I I it might be the only time I've ever left a show for that kind of a thing. All right. ⁓ but that led me to getting a ⁓ a job. In fact, just the other day, I found a business card for a rooster restaurant in Ogden, Utah. And it on the top is for what restaurant? Rooster. That's a is that a change? It's like a a brew pub restaurant. Okay. It's a one off, right? I gotcha. Okay. On the top it says Chris Baffa, John Scott, Dwayne Milwaukee. And it and it was like had some dates on it, right? Yeah. And that was the that was the call that I got from Chris Baffa 'cause he was doing unaccompanied minor cinematographer Chris Baffa. Yeah. D P great man. ⁓ he was doing a feature in Salt Lake City, well, up in the mountains. Yep. Right, about some kids getting stuck at an airport. Yeah. So I rolled from Everwood right into So you're saying it's on there because you you were on the phone writing down their information. Yeah. I was at lunch for I'm not gonna ask you how it's spelled Milwaukee. I can spell it, I know. ⁓ Yeah, so that's what I meant. So that was that was the the name of the cinematographer, the can John Scott was the candidate. John Scott was the operator. And Dwayne was the first AC. Yeah, all very good friends of mine. And you know you know I gave Chris your name for that show. Did you really? Yeah. So basically I want more checks for you. No, Chr Chris, I don't know I don't think he called me for the show because I don't think they were gonna let him take someone because they were bringing you John. I think he said, Do you know anybody? Right. And this was after we had done ⁓ well, you were a steady cam operator, so cla clearly was after we had worked together and I ⁓ you should call Andrew. And ⁓ he called you and and I guess met with you or talked with you and and I remember after he came back him going, That guy's amazing and I was like, damn it We're ⁓ I've got I've got a lead up here for the audience. A little I'm gonna ask you a question in a few minutes to see if the re the reality of the situation of glee is true. But ⁓ first of all, thank you for putting my name out there. So we do it once. I just want to say ahead of time no matter what happens, I'm responsible for everything in your career. Everything good ones and you know how you feel. ⁓ the weight on the station. I mean really that's how that but look, that's what that's what we all do is like you know you never want to give the name of some fad. I mean well unless you want them to fail in So my rig just wants to go centrophone force skipping that. In fairness, I didn't know anybody else in world. But no, I remember him him saying that we pull the snowmobile up to Chris. He wants the France and those are good guys, John Scott. Give me those shots. ⁓ ⁓ I'd still say this is I can do better. I can do better. Very talented. ⁓ Where I think I won't personally shoot a snowmobile. ⁓ Yeah, we always want to figure out a way to do it. And sometimes th it's just stunties. You know, this wasn't well planned out. Sliding down the snee resource in Utah. Yeah, so we're in the mountains. It's like a challenge of it of possible. How do we do it? Along with it, trying to get like a three shot or ⁓ not. ⁓ I was young. I didn't know better. I've done a lot of things in my young career that I would never do again. And did you get We did probably five or six more takes and wide shot close up, that kind of thing. I gotta imagine I all I'm thinking of, I mean, depending on the I don't know, but the run, but it just seems like steady cam on a on a ⁓ snowmobile, it seems like the snowmobile itself has to be going up and down quite a bit probably because of the snow. So it just seems like you'd just be Hold on to that thing. We might have bottomed out once or twice on the battery size. Covered in bags. Yeah, taking snow out of the battery pack. And this well, the speed too was a wind factor on the rail. ⁓ yeah. I didn't even think about that. It was pretty much just like hanging on. It's almost like back when people would bring a steady cam in a helicopter when they didn't want to get a Tyler mount. Yeah, they're back to safety problems. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ I got a story about it. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. So I i back to the safety thing, it's like stunt people put themselves in unsafe as part of the job, right? Yeah. And so we're we're not stunt people, but there's a certain risk involved. Sure. And we're like, yeah, we want to get that. Yeah. ⁓ I've got a shot that we're gonna try to rip off a D V T. Yeah. ⁓ today that was an explosion where it went way bigger than we ever thought. Those are always fun. Right. And the story the story behind that is when I was a focus puller My very first focus pulling shot was on a seventeen mil of a car crash. Okay. Right. And so I'm on the I'm on the knob. Cars come together, they hit, and this is what you hear. Tink. Because my hand just put it to infinity because I was startled. ⁓ you were startled by the startled by the crash. By the crash. And my hand flinched and it went to infinity. Now on a 17 mil, doesn't matter. Get away with it. Yeah. You're yeah. But again, you learn from that. But then I learned from that and I was like, Never again will I let something else influence my work. And so we're doing this explosion of an outhouse, right? Cuba Gooding comes out comes around a corner and I do this little steady can roundy and goes into a fifty fifty. And the the other character says, ⁓ my gosh, what else could go wrong? And Cuba's like, Don't say that, and then all of sudden this outhouse just blows up, right? Well, there's a school bus that's like twenty yards ahead. And ⁓ they said, ⁓ nothing's gonna go past the school bus. So we're in the twenty yard like safe zone. Famous last words. We had boards flying so far behind us, Cuba took off, right, which is a smart thing. These are anyway, all the actors took off, everybody turned around, and there's a video of me just standing there. Just standing holding your ground. And it all goes back to that car crash on the seventeen mil. And I told myself, I am not. Flinching. It's funny because I ⁓ I've done stuff before where afterwards people go, How well how can you how come you're not flinching when this stuff happens? And the reality is, and I answer them as I go, I don't know. I don't know w but I think I'm just so focused on my job that I don't allow myself to think about that other stuff and I sort of assume that other people are doing their their j you know, the grip is next to me, hopefully pushing something away that's coming at me or whatever. ⁓ I remember on ⁓ On St. Vincent. It's not a safety thing really, but we we had this dodgeball game and they had to throw one of those you know that big rubber ball, like the red rubber ball. I don't probably had a name, but everybody had ⁓ in grade school and kickball and all that. They had to throw it right at the camera. And so I was operating on the eyepiece and they put an X on my head for the kid to Well, but thinking by the way that the kid wouldn't nail it, but you know, thinking it's and we get you the camera's plexiglassed up and blah, blah, blah, blah. And and He throws a couple and one of them just comes barreling down and I and I'm thinking, it's gonna hit the it's gonna hit the ⁓ the plex. But I figure, well, I'm I'm not, you know, whatever. And it hits me dead on the head. You they didn't put they didn't put you behind the no the plex just came up and now I now I'm like, why didn't it go up higher? I don't remember why. But and the funny thing is though, so you know, it's like bang and I just held the held the frame and they call cut and I sort of lean back and I look over at the grip. I was standing next to me I can't remember who it was, and I said, Why did you bat that away? And he Well it didn't look like it was coming towards the lens. And I was like, Yeah, but it came in my head. You're my safety. But again, someone was Why didn't you flinch? And I'm like, I don't know. Yeah, you just do it. Yeah, you just do it. It's exactly right. Yeah, and you trust your to trust your peop. That's the thing, is you you you prep it, you make sure that everybody's got their pieces, and then you just you do your job. But yeah. That's exactly right. I have a fun story with ⁓ your dodgeball thing, but it was on Glee and a cup full of confetti. I was gonna say, was this a slushy situation? Yeah, it was essentially a fake slushy for one of the regional competitions they wear. And at the end of the song that they sing and dance to, they throw cups of confetti out of the And so I went up to the lead and I said, Hey at the end, would you just throw that confetti right at me? You're on steady camp. I'm on steady cam doing like a like a pit pass sort of thing. And ⁓ she's like, ⁓ yeah, okay, great. And in my mind, right at me meant in the lens. And in her mind, right at me meant exactly what I said, right at me. So we do the shot. She comes over at the end of the song and dance and just nails me in the face with a cup of confetti. Nothing on the lens. So you got a mouthful of confetti. No visual ⁓ information to show it. That's pretty clever. So the lesson there is to communicate better. Communicate a little better. Yeah, that's pretty funny. so you did that that movie with with Chris Baffa. Yeah. So ⁓ and here we come up to the big question. Right. So I so I do the I do the movie with Baffa and then I go back and do I think I did high school musical two. Okay. Hopefully answered the questions that were left on the Well apparently not because there was high school musical three, so and that must have answered all the questions. ⁓ my god. But and and I have to assume that high school musicals sort of set you up for your eventual glee thing because they were you were doing big ⁓ musical numbers and whatnot. I must I hope so. Yeah. Although when I did that, looking back, I don't think I did it very well. And like knowing what I know. Were you a camera study cam that? B camera study. That one I was ⁓ B camera. Okay. Yeah, Brian Sullivan was A camera. All right. And ⁓ it was pretty standard back then to be The steady cam was the B guy. The B guy, yeah. Yeah. I didn't it's I always sort of lose track of when that became. I mean, I know when ER I was, but that was not normal. And I don't know how af how long after that it sort of became normal, but somewhere in there. Early two thousands. Yeah. Yeah. I mean ER was definitely stood out as a steady cam show. No question about it. I mean I I had Guy B in here the other day. Emmy winning Dave Komite is sitting across from me for ER. ⁓ I had Guy B here in here the other day and we were talking about it and and I was saying, you know, how much he did on it and he goes, Well you did too, and I was like, Nah, I just didn't screw up actually. You kinda you kinda set the bar where it was and it's it really is it's it's hard for people I think now who weren't around Before that to understand how groundbreaking that was. I mean just the stuff that they were the stuff that when I went in the stuff that they thought was normal, I was like, You gotta be kidding me. Right. And then it becomes normal. It's like anything else. Like Glee probably. Like at the very beginning it was a huge learning curve, probably. And then you're like, ⁓ we're doing this now. And I would say ER. You tell me if I'm wrong, but ER was Maybe one of the first shows where SteadyCam became normal on set all the time. There's no question about it. ⁓ there was nothing like that before that. Not not on that level where it was used ⁓ instead of as, hey, we need Steady Cam on Thursday or something, you know. Where it was really like this is an intrinsic part of the storytelling. Yeah. Right. Which the like I that's why I I mean I say to people like I just lucked into it. I mean, it really to be able to you know, I mean I'm I'll I'll take the props for For not dropping the ball, but you know, just to be to be given that opportunity at that time it's ridiculous. I sort of yeah, I don't know what I did to deserve it but that was awesome. How far after Dead Man's Walk was that? 'Cause I I think we were communicating and I heard you had got on it. I got in the IR on ninety six. ⁓ so Dead Man's Walk was ninety four. Nice so yeah, like two years prior or something like that. That's amazing. Yeah. No it ⁓ Yeah. We all get good opportunities. I think that we all get one of them. So just repeating myself, but I'll repeat it for you and hopefully hopefully people are listening to everyone and they're like he already said that. But I the more people that I talk to, especially the older people, the older folks who are who are some of them are retired or, you know, ⁓ have had huge careers, they just stumble into stuff. And some of some of it's earned, but a lot of it's not. And it's more about, I got stumbled into this, I gotta kinda fake it till I make it and then I gotta p I gotta like really, you know. And it's just time and time again. It it's it's not like, yeah, I put in my chops and I this and then the other. It's like, no, this guy was sick and I took over and they liked me, you know? And ⁓ so many of those stories. Which I know is frustrating sometimes for ⁓ younger operators 'cause ⁓ what I always tell people is like, there are no answers 'cause every situation is different. It's just I I was talking to you know t did you ever work with Tommy Shalami? No. West Wing and all that? Great. And and I was talking with him the other day and he he said something really interesting which was ⁓ he said, Look, if you're a PA, be the best PA you can be. Don't be a PA who wants to be a director. You can be a PA who wants to be a director, but don't tell people that. Be a PA. And then when they look at you they go, You know what? That guy's that guy's just hustling every minute. We should give him, you know, let's let's give it let's get him in here and do this or that and that's how and I think that's that's You just do the best you can at all times, you know. I totally agree. Yeah. I mean if you're preparing yourself when the opportunity arrives. Yeah. Be ready for it. Then you're the lucky one. Yep. But you you're you're not lucky because you've been preparing. That's exactly right. Right. You've done your best like that PA, right? Yeah. It's George Clini used to t used to say that ⁓ he was the ⁓ He was the biggest twenty year overnight sensation in the history of film because he'd done so many failed pilots and so many failed movies before he became this overnight star and he was like, I've been doing this for twenty years. You just finally started paying attention. ⁓ anyway. But so you are you finished that movie with with Chris Baffa. Okay, so I finished that movie high school musical too. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. And then I got a call in two thousand eight. ⁓ thinks it become quiet. I think it was writer's strike. Right or strike. Rider Strike back then, 2007, 2008. Yep. And ⁓ he had called me to see if I could come down and do a few things here and there and I never could. And then he calls and he says, Hey I'm doing this pilot. I have to break away from Niptuck to do it. So my crew's staying there. Can you come down and be the steady cam, the B guy? And I'm like, yeah, great. ⁓ and so I came down and did that and it was like I don't you know, so I'm coming from Utah, I live in come to LA Three weeks, three and a half weeks, I met Ryan Murphy, very young Ryan Murphy, Ian Brennan, Brad Falchek, and ⁓ they put together this really cute, interesting pilot. And ⁓ it was fun, and and ⁓ and I thought, okay, that's great, done, back to Utah. Back to Utah. But I never had a plan to live in LA. Mm-hmm. And so I went back to Utah and it was quiet. And ⁓ so that was October 2008, and then in probably January. of two thousand nine I get a call from Chris and and I think it was a I think it was a a courtesy call. This is the where the question's gonna come to date of of what I've been thinking all these years. Yeah. So he he calls and he's like, Hey, you know, I just want you to let let you know, you know, it's been picked up and ⁓ we're gonna start shooting in February. and since you did the pilot I'd like to offer you the show. Totally thinking, No way is Andrew gonna move to California and do the show. Yeah. And it had been quiet. So I was like, Yeah, I'd love to do the show. And there was like this silence. ⁓ And he's like, ⁓ okay, great. All right. Let's we'll put it together. Awesome. You know, Dwayne's gonna be the focus puller and this is gonna happen and that and blah, blah, blah. And ⁓ and so anyway I came down and did thirteen episodes and then a break and then nine. So here's the question and since since since since Baffa was quiet, my I've been thinking all these years that he had Dave Komites lined up to do the show. And that when I said I was gonna do it, that put that off the rails. I don't think he had be lined up. I know he called me for the pilot and I couldn't do it because I was going home with ⁓ I was going home for to Connecticut for some reason and I I couldn't do it and I couldn't change it. And I think I may have said you should call Andrew because he had just worked with you and he was probably already thinking of that, but he's thinking I'll get a local guy versus whatever. To the best of my knowledge, mean, i it's possible he talked to me about it, but I don't think so. No. Okay. I think the silence was probably more like you really want to wanna move to LA? That's my guess. ⁓ so Okay. Well there we go. Sorry about that. Well, I mean, the fact that you recommended me, like, how big is this check gonna be that I have to write you, Dave? Well, it's I have to say it is getting bigger, although now that we didn't have You took my job on Glee. Yeah. No, I always assumed that you did the pilot. You nailed the pilot and he called you, of course, and said, I want you to do well she did obviously, but that that's it was just a a feta complete. But I I I would assume you'd have to ask Chris this that he probably was calling you thinking there's no way he wants to come and do this or he wants to move here. ⁓ you know. I mean I think there ⁓ it had to be a little bit of maybe he would or he wouldn't have called. Right. Yeah. No, no, no, obviously. Like maybe a little more than a courtesy, but No, but that said also knowing Chris, he's the type of person who's like the right thing to do, even though I think you I I'm not saying he was thinking this, but even if he thought like even if you had said I'm never moving to LA, he's the type of person who would have called and said, Look, I know you're not gonna move to LA, but I just y you you deserve this opportunity. Like he's he's a good guy that way, so I can see that. Yeah. Yeah, I could see that too. Yeah, he's a gentleman, so the reality is then he got off the phone and he's like, Andrew's taking it, I'm like, damn it Andrew No, that's not at all. ⁓ so you came down here and you did that show Glee and that never went anywhere, right? I know, Glee never went anywhere. It was nothing and and ⁓ that must have been a dream though. It was a dream. I mean because between the study cam and the big musicals and and just ⁓ I mean the look of the show and and I mean here's the deal. Coming coming out of Salt Lake City. Yeah. And the stages we use there, the warehouses that we soundproof and so forth. Yeah. And walking on the Paramount lot with the water tank painted up and the all these ancient stages with walls that are three feet thick. It's the dream, right? And I walk onto stage fourteen and I'm cruising over and it's like forty five feet up to the perms. Yep. And there's ropes and cable and coming down to this beautiful high school set. This giant smile comes over my face. Which also by the way you're walking onto a Ryan Murphy design set too, is just like it's been designed to the T, right? I mean he didn't dis you know, his people is very beautiful. Particular in terms of detail. That's pretty cool though. Yeah. That is pretty cool. I re it's ⁓ when I first drove onto the Warner Brothers lot and my name was there, ⁓ it was like Whoa It's kind of a big deal, right? It's cool. Like Wow, I'm actually doing this. Yeah, yeah, right. Like this is my career now. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, really. Even though it was already ⁓ fifteen years in. So so with all those those musical numbers, was there was there a learning curve with that? Yeah. Are you a musician? Big time. I'm not a musician. Okay. ⁓ I'll go back to the comment about flow in terms of skateboarding or rhythm. Yeah. ⁓ which Steady Cam is definitely linked ⁓ to those words. And there was a total learning curve and it came from all parts of production. Like the first ⁓ song, The Don't Stop Believin. In the pilot. In the pilot. Yeah. We shot from four different directions all separate time. From the front, from the side, from the you know. And ⁓ and that was just how we did it. And took like we did like we took a whole day, maybe longer to shoot it, right? And ⁓ gradually it became a show where you could shoot at any angle, ⁓ any motion. just go with it. Right. And so that was a development. I think we found that fully in like season two where we're doing like three sixties and you know, just going for it. And it was a freedom that was like having wings. And and when you say going for it meaning you've got a design for the shop, but in the moment you're just sort of following your instincts? Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely an instinct show. There's There's so much happening in a dance performance that I mean you could you could storyboard it, but the time and the effort and the that would be a waste. You just go in and you follow your instincts. I was just gonna say, so did it become basically, especially for newer directors or whatever, is like now we do the dan ⁓ Andrew will go in and sort of paint it and then we'll we'll pick up the moments that we need? Yeah, I mean, basically on Glee, ⁓ a stage performance when they're in the auditorium, which we built stage sixteen on season two, ⁓ we had sort of a setup where we'd we'd have a thirty foot techno crane on one side. We'd have a dolly track in the middle. We'd have maybe a camera in the wings, right? It was like a three camera day when we would do music. And then we would ⁓ lens in. And then we would do if there was a special, like if we needed an overhead or if we need to slide into camera or whatever. And then we would push even farther, we would do like a pit pass, which is like where the band would be, right? So we're low angles with the lights and stuff behind. And and then maybe some side angles from the wings. ⁓ and then they would get me in there with faces. Because a lot of these songs were about the relationships between the characters, ⁓ you know, what they're feeling during these songs. All the songs had some sort of meaning to the story. And ⁓ and then at the very end it became normal to do a steady camp pass. And which is super fun 'cause this was at the end. I knew the routine pretty well. And I would essentially design some sort of like one or situation. Like if there was going to be one shot for this whole song, you're going to see it right now. And then you come up with something that could actually work as a one or then they'll they'll take the pieces if they want it or not. Yeah I mean they never used any of these as a one or ⁓ still But for me it was entertaining and also fun to to try and, you know, create that. So you know, going back and forth from lyrics to feet to hands and ⁓ honestly the the learning curve with dance, and I don't think a lot of operators know this, is there's certain sizes that you need to use for directors and choreographers to be happy. Like honestly it's like We don't try to cut ankles off. You're talking about frame sizes. Frame sizes. Because you've got to be able to see certain body movements. Yeah. Yeah. And on high school musical too, I got in trouble. Kenny Ortega, nicest guy, great choreographer and director. I was like they would do like something with their hands where their hands go out and their hand would leave frame. ⁓ That was like put me in decapitate me. But how would you know if you that was that was like, what are you doing? Right. And I'm like What am I doing? Right? You tell me. And it was like, Keep the hands in the frame. That's part of the dance. Right. And so these are just things where I'm like, ⁓ okay. Yeah. And feet, right? So you don't shoot a dance like cutting the feet up. That's sure. The feet are the dance. But you wouldn't know that till you've you've someone's told you it or you've made the mistake, right? Right. So we would always like do a performance from full stage and then it would be full group. No feet or hands leave the frame. Gotcha. And then it would be like, Okay, two characters. Yeah. And then that would become, you know, like a cowboy or something. So it was either you hold the feet or you go into a cowboy. It's not like a dancing on your knees kind of a situation cut. And then, you know, obviously you're close up and follow. So w so when you're up there and you're free forming steady cam, you're moving, you're you're panning, you're tilting, it it's it's all you. But you said you had the thirty foot techno on stage and you did performance pieces. talk to me about that about working with working with your your Dolly group is Corey, right? Yeah. Corey Corona. And then ⁓ Jimmy Sal Jimmy Sal Duty would be on the pickle. ⁓ didn't know J Judy was on I didn't know he was on the pickle. So well we also had Ace. Who I don't know Ace ⁓ Dominguez. Ace Dominguez. I know why Ace Pick. Adrian Adrian Dominguez for anybody listening the pickle is the ⁓ the the switch or what are you button knob I guess. Yeah telescoping but it control telescopes the camera in and out. So you got one person on that, you got one person on the bucket, Corey was probably on the bucket, Mary was on the room. And you're on headsets operating around. Did you guys freeform a lot? A lot. Yeah. I mean, we would take notes, so by the end there's a huge process for the music. They would send us ⁓ time coded lyrics. They would send us color coded lyrics to who was singing when. Whoa. By name, color coded. They would also send sometimes a rehearsal tape. ⁓ and then they would send the music. So we would have the original version that we've Yeah. So that was like a daily thing. On the drive into work, listen to the song. The music was the original song, not their they hadn't recorded theirs yet. No, their their version. ⁓ so you'd have their version. Okay. Sometimes it would be like a temp track that somebody else had done for them. And sometimes it was the original version. We were on a pretty tight schedule with all of that. So sometimes temp. So we would use that to create moves ⁓ specific moves for the crane for certain things and everything else was free form. Yeah. Which was totally like up to any of these dolly grips. So basically we're on it. But otherwise they'd just go you know, let's come over and you just kind of follow they they'd move the crane and you'd you'd do something cool there and then you'd say, let's go in for a close up and and whatever. So it was ⁓ i it's really back and forth. There was a lot of back and forth. Yeah. And then Yeah, so we would design stuff together and then we would also like I would I would give them a pass. Like they would give me a steady cam pass. I'm like, okay. I would say, take me for a ride. Great. I love it. Guys, take me for a ride. And they would do whatever they thought was cool and I would operate it. So it was pretty fun. And I think for them it was really fun. I will say I don't I don't know what it was on, but I did a show with Corey on Dolly, but it was long after Glee. And Like from the moment that I I started working with him I was like, ⁓ man. He's incredibly good. He's really good, but also he has he has confidence because ⁓ obviously like you you gave him the ability to do, you know, what he wanted. He knows what he's doing, he knows how to move move a crane. I mean, he's just really good. And he would come up with great stuff. He's smooth and gets the emotion of it. His whole thing with like timing and starts and stops and Is he a musician? He is ⁓ I don't Think so. Okay. Interesting. ⁓ and I was sad to lose him because he moved to Atlanta. ⁓ I didn't know he moved to Atlanta. Yeah. ⁓ For fan for family. He's a no, it makes sense. It doesn't surprise me at all. But yeah. He is ⁓ he is a top notch dolly and cran grip. And duty is as well. D and ace as well. ⁓ but I worked mostly with Corey for better part of a decade, maybe more. Yeah. And his there's there's something with a dolly grip who's ⁓ grown up in the business being able to fix things by themselves. Mm-hmm. And those who've been told not to do anything until told. Yeah. And he's the kind of guy that you can trust and he will just fix it. Make it better. He'll make it better. He'll make it cool. You know, it he's you know, he's so good that he he'll just do like a little push in at the end. Yeah. And I'm like, Yeah, that was cool. Great. Thanks. And it's not like, why'd you do that? That was nobody told you to do that. And so he just knows the feel, the story, the Anyway, the emotion of movement. I just remember and I c maybe it was on ho was he on Hollywood with me? I can't remember what it was. But we were on something together and ⁓ you know, we'd do a crane crane shot and then you know they'd do it again and again and again and I'd start to get bored and I'd Well, let's try this and then I'd find Curry, what do you want to you want to do something? You go, Yeah, what if we do that? I could do that, you know, and it'd usually be better than what I came up with or whatever. But ⁓ the but he was great because like you said, he understands he understands the story. Which is the key to it. You know, I I always say you can find a hundred people who can move from A to B. You can't find a hundred people who know why they're moving from A to B. And that's that's what makes all the difference. Right. Yeah. But ⁓ he's in Atlanta now. I gotta get more jobs in Atlanta. There's definitely yeah, right? There's definitely like I think you either get it or you don't in terms of the that's the speed of the motion and when the timing and the speed is I think something you get or you don't get. Yeah. I ⁓ you you can you can teach that s you you can work with someone to make it better, but they either are gonna nail it or they're not. Yeah. And and again, if you got someone like duty on on the pickle and you've got Corey on the bucket, the two of them are working so seamlessly it's like yeah, I don't even understand how they do it to be honest. Right. And and I don't know if you feel this way, but I always look at it and I go I think that if I had to do that I probably couldn't, even though I do what I do on a steady cam, but I don't have to tell anybody to do something on the steady cam, just like my head tells my hand to do it. Right, right. It's second nature. Like I don't think I could be half of that. I don't know that I'd be able to figure it out. I'd be stepping over someone else or something like that. But it's it's an incredible talent. That's amazing. Yeah. ⁓ and and so did you so you were so you were like hardcore part of the process then at Unglee, I would imagine, right? Yeah. So that was my Maybe my first A camera steady cam situation. Wow. Maybe one show before that where it was like, okay, the steady cam is A camera now, it's not B camera. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, that was definitely super involved. And then ⁓ Dwayne was the B camera. Dwayne Milwaukee. Yeah, Dwayne Milwaukee. Was it the show the show he moved up on? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So he moved around. Great camera assistant, great ⁓ operator and now a great D P. Great, yeah. Amazing. And a wonderful person. And a great person. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ so the best hair in the business. Duane, if you're listening. I agree. I just want to put that out there. Dwayne has the best hair. Actually that whole crew that whole group, I mean you you Glee was basically all the all the folks in Kenny, ⁓ all the folks from from ⁓ Niptuck that I s I started, you know, I I worked with forever. And it's funny 'cause like Dwayne was the B the B first and Kenny was the B second and you know, sort of so everybody moved up but Such a great group of people. ⁓ all of them. And total characters and and a lot of fun to work with. But that that's a big part of it, right? Like you just want to go to work with these people. I mean, that makes all the difference, right? If you go to work and you're getting along with everybody and having a good time. Yeah. Or whether you're going into work and you're like f fighting with departments or whatever. I mean, that's just like I don't understand that anymore. Yeah. It's stupid to say it, but watching Glee I mean I wasn't what's it called a gleek? A gleek. I was not a glee. That's a that's a fan. But I did used to watch. I watched a little bit and then I'd get frustrated because I was like, why does Andrew get to do all this cool stuff? I don't want to and then I and then I'd watch it and I I I can't do that that well. I'm not watching this anymore. ⁓ but ⁓ it just looked like it was a show that was probably a lot of fun to work on. It was an incredible amount of fun. Yeah. I mean, one it's about high school kids. Well yeah, which is it's just good. It's fun to reminisce about all the high school issues that we had. So it was funny. ⁓ Sue Sylvester on the show, just ridiculously funny. ⁓ Iqbal did print anyway. Everything was great. The stories were great. The the what what they called the kids, which was the cast. ⁓ they were awesome. You know, they had all their little things. And it was like the biggest show on television at the time, right? Huge, huge. It was it went from like, what is this to like then they were touring. Yeah. And getting mobbed. Like we were shot in New York, and it was like that was my first experience with like. Crazy paparazzi and like thousands of pieces. I shot yeah, I shot some of the concert stuff, but we shot in New York for ⁓ an episode and there are thousands of people watching us film. You know what? I think they may have called me for that because I was living back east. Did you call me for that? This would have been this would have been early, early. This would have been like 2011. I don't think. No, I remember getting called Chris Paffa called me, but maybe 'cause maybe you couldn't you were you were thinking you weren't gonna be able to make it or something like that. I I don't remember what it was. But anyway, or maybe it was one of the concerts. But whatever, it doesn't make a difference. It could have been the concerts. Maybe it was the concert. You know who I ended up doing was Henry Turrell 'cause he was a certified three D steady cam guy. Now I remember it. I think it was three D and I was like, I'm not doing three D, that's too heavy. I saw that rig, I put it on. I put it on once and I was like No. I'm glad you're doing this. Henry Tole's a really good guy for that because he's like built like a man, not like me. Yeah. I was in the back on this like that may have been like a thousand millimeter zoom with T D thing 'cause I knew the lyrics. Yes. And I know who sang the lyrics. So I was transferring close ups. ⁓ wow. That's great. Yeah, I could imagine Chris calling going me going, Chris, yes. Glee, yes. New York, yes. Three D. ⁓ no, that's not you had me. ⁓ well. ⁓ that's pretty cool. So so and you're just like thousands of screaming teens and Yeah, that was my first experience with that while on a show. And they have totally different rules with paparazzi in New York. They can stand right behind camera if you're on a public property. But there are one or two that are very specific that are problematic. It's even met that guy. When I moved ⁓ when I moved I'm not gonna say his name, but when I moved ⁓ to the East Coast my first time on set on the streets I was like, why isn't anybody getting and they were like, Whoa, no. ⁓ and and I and I think I actually said something 'cause he he kinda I was ⁓ I had the study came on and he kinda pushed me at some point. And ⁓ and I was like, Don't fucking you know, and ⁓ and they t they said, look, just so you know, that's a lawsuit right there. So just and and he's the lawsuit guy. He's the lawsuit guy. And the the amazing thing was, I mean, there would be actresses sitting in their chairs and he would be four inches away from them Taking pictures and I was like, there's gotta be some point where this bec you know, I mean, I don't know, four inches, but whatever, but he'd be in their face. It was amazing to me. Yeah. And and I tried to explain to them, I was Yeah, LA? No. There's this is never flying. You shut down the block, you shut down the block. Exactly. Right. It's a different world. But New York's got that whole sort of like this is New York, you know, get off our Exactly. It's a different world. Yeah. But ⁓ well, well, back to ⁓ so that that's that was an amazing ride. And how many years was that? That was six seasons. Wow. We did a hundred and twenty one episodes. We did seven hundred and forty two songs. ⁓ my gosh, that's amazing. Talk about like cutting your teeth, doing music videos back in the day. Yeah. No, that's this was well, you're doing music videos and it's dramatic. So you're you're you're learning stories. I mean, music videos are still at the end of the day, just music videos, but you're your storytelling and everything else. Yeah. And and so that sort of cemented you in the Ryan Murphy world, yeah? I think so. Because that's that's been a ride for you. He's Ryan's been very loyal to me. He brought me on to say all of his new shows for quite some time. Bill Pope called me to do what was the what was the movie? The band, The Boys in the Band? The Boys in the Band. The Boys in the Band. Bill Pope called me to do that. And ⁓ I was talking to him about it and he I gotta interview this I gotta talk to this one guy first. And I knew Ryan Murphy was directing it and I said, Is it Andrew Mitchell? And he goes, Yeah, why? And I said, 'Cause he's gonna do the show and he goes, What do you mean? And I said, Well I'm just telling you, if he's available and he wants to, he's doing the show 'cause it's Ryan. It's and he goes, Well, I don't know about that and I was like, and and and ⁓ I s you know, so I sort of said, Look, the two of them are ⁓ team and whatever I said, but here here's the thing I'll tell you. He's fantastic and you will love him and he will be a huge asset on top of which 'cause you and Ryan have a have a you know, ⁓ you know, shorthand and et cetera, et cetera and ⁓ Yeah, and sure enough, that's what ended up happening. That that was that's an interesting call in terms of like operating like when you're ⁓ when you're in a situation where production is bringing you on to the new DP. You're a must hire for the DP. That's happened to me like several times. Well and and with Bill Pope, who I mean, so I'll tell you how I'll tell you how it went, 'cause we we got along swimmingly, I think. And he d and by the way, he had clearly never heard of you before. When you talk to me. I mean, he was in a different world. He was in feature world and all that. So ⁓ so I call Bill, right, at the beginning, and this is not the first time that I've been put into somebody's lap. Yeah. Right, like this. And it's it's unpleasant. Like, ⁓ here's your show and here's your person, right? You have to hire them. So what do you How do you how do you So I call Bill and I'm like, Hey, I'm Andrew Mitchell, blah blah blah I know that they're putting my name out to you ⁓ for this show. I said, ⁓ I've worked with Ryan all these years. I'd I'd love to do the show, but honestly, if you don't want me, I would rather not be there. Wow. Like if you like honestly, if you don't want me there, it's not worth like the struggle that it will be on set. And so I said, if so just let me know. You know, I was just completely honest with him. It's fair. Right. Which is I think fair to anybody. And ⁓ and he's like, let's give it a go. You know, and I think we had a great time. But that's a smart way to deal with it is to be good. That's not normal. Right. And it's not your fault and it's not my fault. So let's just make the best of it. And Bill mentioned that. He's like, is this a normal thing? Right? And I'm like Yeah, Bill doesn't generally get o handed operators. No. No. I mean he's very prestigious and ⁓ and he's actually, I think on your recommendation, become somewhat of a mentor to me as a DP. ⁓ that's right. We talked about that. Yeah, he So what if I have a question? There are a few smarter people out there. I mean He has so much experience. So much experience. Very smart man on in the film World and Off. Very intelligent. I was shooting reshoots for Thor. Something or other. I don't even know. He's Thor number nine or whatever it was. with him. And and ⁓ we were doing I don't even remember who the actor was, but we were doing this long lens ⁓ remote head technocrane shot and his actor's coming and his tight shot and the actors coming up and dropping down to his knees and standing up and just all over the place and he was different every time and after about take three Bill comes over and he's eating something and he stands next to me and he kinda looks at me and he goes, So just you gonna keep his head in the whole time at some point or is this a stylistic thing? And I remember going, look just so we're clear, I'm aware What's going on I'm working on. It's like okay, I'm just wondering 'cause it'd be great to keep his head in the whole time if you could. And he walks away and it's just like I mean I I I love him, but he's he's ⁓ he's he's he's demanding, which ⁓ which is what I what I like about him actually. Yeah, actually it was a very nice way 'cause I've he's done it he can do it not nice, but ⁓ no, he's he's ⁓ I personally like working for someone who's demanding and and you know, but the funny thing is is that even as he was walking over, I remember I I like I know what's coming. And I really felt like cutting him off and going, look, I know. Like you don't have to say anything, like, please. But ⁓ yeah, he's a he's a good guy. He's a good educator in terms of of s what should happen. Yeah. You know, he and on ⁓ Boys in the Band, he taught me some things that were amazing. So here's here's an example. So in in the Ryan Murphy world, there's certain rules. One is No haircuts. Yeah, I found that out pretty quickly. Do not he loves hairstyle, he loves fashion. Yeah. And it doesn't make a difference what the frame is, is you have to see the hair. Right. You want to see the hair. So you just adjust the size so that hair in the shot works. ⁓ the other thing was if like somebody is handling a prop, you keep the prop in the frame. Right. Which is like, okay, that's that's you know, that's a duh question. Like, yeah, of course you want to do that, right? So we're doing this shot and ⁓ ⁓ this person's pi picking up like a drink, pours it, picks it up, and he's and we're tight, tight, tight, right? And we're doing like this dolly up or a boom up. So he he picks the drink and w and the tight you're tight on the drink? Sorry, tight on the drink going up to the lips, right? Because there's a decision about whether he's gonna drink it or how he feels about it. Whatever. And ⁓ and so I'm I've had grown up in this world of you follow that sucker, right? ⁓ I see. And in another world, there's like this feature world where w what I found where they don't move the camera past a certain speed, it seems. Like, ⁓ that's that's T V speed. Right. Interesting. Like, don't pan that fast. That's that's that's TV sp anyway, I'm like, ⁓ whatever. So Well, anyway, so I'm following the drink up, right? And it doesn't fit the scene, right? But I've been trained like the motion doesn't fit the scene, it's too fast, right? So he's like He comes up and he's like, Andrew, let the drink out of your frame and re find it before he drinks. Right. And I'm like, Cool. Not only did this just become easier for me, but it makes sense. Makes sense. Right. So the drink gets poured and it as he picks it up, we rise, but we let the drink out of the frame, up to the body. And then it comes up. Find his face. Yeah. He drinks. And the speed of the shot matched the scene. Yeah. And That's just one of the little things that he talked about. And and but Ryan didn't have an issue with that? No. Okay. No. He Ryan actually was producing that show. There was ⁓ a different director. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it made more sense. And anyway, it's just those little things and and and this is like after decades of me being an operator, I'm like But again, like you said, but but you were an operator in sort of one house with specific rules. So those were the rules that you learned and then you gotta you gotta get your head out of those rules. Yeah. Which I mean again I sort of alluded to it. Like I came onto a Ryan Murphy show and I I put in a close up and someone came over and was like, You can't cut the hair and I like, What what's going on? They're like, ⁓ yeah. And I I remember going like an email would have been great. Like I you know, if the if there are rules somewhere it would have been great to know this and then it wouldn't be a problem. But I was like, Is there anything else I should know? And then you know. ⁓ but yeah, ⁓ and and I mean, not to say anything about Ryan Murphy, there are all sorts of directors who have their own specific whatever you want to call that, and D Ps and and whatever. But ⁓ Yeah, yeah. ⁓ Bill ⁓ Bill he knows what he's doing and you're right, he is an excellent educator. I mean he he yeah, he's ⁓ he's he's a lot of fun to work with. I I I I've ⁓ my big thing is like I think an operator should be s somewhat of a chameleon, depending on who the director is, the producer, the show, and you adapt to what they like. You know, obviously we want to provide them with what they Yeah. What they want. So if they want the hair in the shot, you're like, Okay, I'll frame appropriate size to have hair in the shot. Yeah. Right. A lot of times they're like, no, just tip up to the hair and you're like the bottom of the frame's on the chin. I'm like, I don't really want to do that, but how about a widen out? Get some collar in there. Yep, yep, yep. No, and I I remember that was a thing for me, which was like, I don't think these are good frames. But at the end of the day, you know, I always say I'd rather them be happy and me be unhappy than me be happy and them be unhappy because I've got a mortgage. Yeah, exactly. That's the end of it. ⁓ but but it's also ⁓ to me, I try to go with an open mind going I don't like this close up, but maybe there's something here that I haven't thought about, or maybe or maybe it tells this story better, you know, or whatever it is. So you try to take something out of it. and and and go from there. ⁓ but so so and then ⁓ so you did a bunch of Ryan Ryan Murphy among other things, and then ⁓ eventually ⁓ you started DPing, right? Yeah. And are you are you still operating? You sold your rig yet? I haven't operated I told myself I told myself one more full series. And I'll sell my rig. So I'm I just got hired on for that series. Yeah. ⁓ you did? ⁓ As soon as the strike is over. ⁓ okay. Gotcha. ⁓ and then I will and then dispatch the rig. What ⁓ out of curiosity, what's the reasoning? I mean you've done great work, so it's not like I want to do You know, it's it's it's ⁓ nostalgia? No, no. Well, maybe if it was nostalgia, the rig would be in my office. Okay, gotcha. Which it still might happen. Fair enough. Okay. Just put it on a stand in my office, right? ⁓ I think it's more ⁓ a squirrel in acorns. Where the squirrel is saving up acorns and it's like a just in case. Okay. Like I still have a piece of property at a cabin in in Utah. Just in case. I'm totally established here, right? Yeah. ⁓ So I guess it's just in case. I don't know. I don't it's ⁓ are are you looking forward to it? Like not doing it anymore? No. Are you looking forward to doing a a show as a steady cam operator? ⁓ good question. Talk to me after the first thing. Here's the deal. I love doing steady cam. So yeah. I absolutely love it. Right? It's it's very cool. And you can do some great things. And I did on American Horror Story. I DP'd and I did the steady cam when I when I wanted it. How how'd that work out? It was it was challenging because I was thinking about a lot of a lot of things at the same time. Yeah. Right. In fact I got called out by an actress on on on Ratchet. I'm doing a shot. I'm and I was doing steady cam on something like a I don't know, second unit or something, and I was looking at my monitor for framing. And then I looked up at the actress for lighting. Ooh. Yeah. And she called you out for me. And she's like, Andrew, I know what you're doing, but you can't look at me. ⁓ I see. ⁓ while you were while you were filming. While I'm filming. And I was like, done. You know? So and then on the other hand, I've I was way too detailed oriented back then and Yeah. So anyway, you cut your teeth in new things and so All right. There you go. you know, we haven't talked a lot about ⁓ ⁓ New operators. And when you were a new operator and things that you learned and things that you can pass on, you got any any tips? Well, I'll tell you how I got my first job. Yeah. as an operator? This yeah, this would have been Untouched by an Angel. Okay. ⁓ I had it been first assistant. And ⁓ they were bumping me up every once in a while. And we You were already on the show, you're saying? I was on the show earlier as the first AC. Okay. Yeah. And there was a There was a a a guest operator who came in who they were testing to be the guy. Uh-huh. And he would move the frame every movement of the actor. Right? Regardless of if he had not because they're leaving the frame in a word. Like you could play the frame and let the let the actor move, right? And it was like no, the actor it was like one of those things where it's like my professor said That one third of the frame should be behind the actor and two thirds of the frame should be in front of the actor and I'm gonna keep it that way, right? And ⁓ you know, that's not how you do it. You can't move the if you don't have to move the frame, don't move the frame, right? No. ⁓ so anyway, that was that's what the person did, and then next thing you know, I was on the camera. So those little beginner tidbits of of advice. And like you just said, like some people like things a certain way. And you just learn. Figure out what the D P wants. Yeah. And you might not know why. Yeah. But five years from now you'd be like, got it. Like me in my high school musical thing, it was like, ⁓ you never cut a dancer's feet off in the frame. Interesting. Right. Or I pay attention to story so that I know when the actor's gonna jump in the pool and I don't miss it. Sure. Which these are all memories going back and I'm self whipping. For for making these ⁓ mistakes and the key is you got past them. But ever everything is learning. I I remember my thing for that of of ⁓ you ever work with Terrence Nightingale? You know Terrence? No, but his name came up just yesterday. Yeah. Terrence was my assistant on ER and I trained him to be the camera operator take over for me afterwards. Yeah. He's ⁓ great all the way around. But he is he is a big, big part of the reason that I survived ER because he protected me quite a bit. And I remember He's English and I remember ⁓ early on I was probably doing what you were talking about. Like, you know, someone got up and moved two feet and I'd I'd move the frame with him. He'd come over and he'd go, You know, you don't have to move the frame all the time. It's a terrible idea. What a good piece of advice. And and I was like, Huh? And he's like, you know, just let him play and I was like, ⁓ that's interesting. And to this day, like whenever someone's playing the frame and and You know, there's that moment where you're kinda wondering if they're gonna stop and you're thinking, like, okay, I'm gonna com well, maybe I you commit I I often think of Terrence and and I just I just hold the frame and then sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I there is a risk involved. Yeah. But the but I I the interesting thing that I've found is I think actually ⁓ look, there's there's the early part where it's just the mechanics of operating and you're like, How do I land a frame and how do I which is just physics and and you know, knowing the gear and all that stuff. And then you get onto that next thing of like being creative. And then I think when it becomes really interesting, which is I think where you are and where I am at I am, where you're totally fine with failing because I mean you you're not fine with it. You hope you don't but but you you recognize that you don't really get the good stuff until you're riding that line of of failure. You know, I mean it's like like we're talking about is like holding that frame to where someone bumps it and and just hoping to God they don't go another step, but committing and knowing that you may that Bill might come over and go, Hey, why did they But at this point you have enough notches on your pole that it's like Yeah. He knows what he's doing. He I yeah. Yeah, or even you know, y you might you might get caught. I can't believe you did that 'cause that was a great performance. It's like, look, I screwed up, you know. I'm sorry. ⁓ but I think that's where the interesting stuff starts to come. ⁓ for me anyway. w so when you were a B camera operator and you were coming in well, you you had a weird thing it sounds like because first of all you were the local guy, so you sort of felt like You already felt like the underdog a little bit. And you must have you must have come into those things with thinking, ⁓ no, but you these people probably figure I'm some yokel that just fell off the truck, it isn't though. But how do you go into that situation where I would assuming a lot of those times you didn't know most of those people, right? They were new to you. How how do you how do you get in there and sort of like know whether are you pitching ideas to the A camera operator? Are you pitching to the D P? You know? ⁓ Yeah, I mean the B camera position is is ⁓ It's an interesting position depending on who's where. Like the D P, if the D P is involved in setting up shots, it could be very easy because the D P will be like, All right, A camera over here, set me up a Y, B camera over here, a medium or whatever. And then you're like, Okay, I've got my assignment, I know what to do. But if you're in a situation where the D P is just like, Set me up some shots, guys. The A camera operator is either gonna work with the B camera operator to get two good shots, or the A camera operator possibly will just take over. Mm-hmm. And there's and there's different attitudes. And I think the older attitude is A camera rules, feature world, we don't care what B camera does, it never makes the movie. ⁓ which is totally not true anymore. ⁓ and so there's kind of reading that like if you have a good relationship with the A camera guy, that's great. Because you can I think you can value each other's shots and be like, Okay, A camera gets priority. That's what I like to say. Like and sometimes B camera gets priority. Like if I'm D Ping, it'll be like, Okay, A camera, you definitely got your shot, but you blocked B camera shot for three takes, B camera gets priority. Do not get in their shot. Yeah. Right. And so But you call it as the D P I'm calling it, right? But if if the two operators can get together beforehand and make it happen, all the better. Sure. You know, so that you get more Well, that's good advice for any and a B camera operator actually. Yeah, I mean work it out, right? Yeah. There and I've seen both I've seen it go both directions. Yeah. ⁓ obviously I like when they coordinate a little bit better. so I guess communication with whoever is on the other camera and w you know, work out personalities and conflicts and usually if somebody is shutting you out, there's there's a confidence issue going on. Hm. But ⁓ I mean I'm not psychologist, but I you know what? You're not you may not have a degree, but I I think every successful A camera operator is is a psychologist on some level. I mean I mean that would yeah. Yeah, I think you have to be you have to be, right? Well, because the thing is like I mean w kind of what I'm alluding to also is like you get you get thrown onto a set, you don't know anybody, and you suddenly have to read the room and figure out Okay. ⁓ he doesn't like that and that or these two people aren't talking together, so I'm not getting in the middle of that. And yeah. You know, and and by the way, ⁓ have you have you been on a set where D P and director aren't aren't playing nice together and you're caught in the middle? ⁓ yeah. What do you ⁓ yeah. ⁓ that's a good one. Right. Well by the way, ⁓ let me wait. What do I do? Let me let me ask a question. Yeah. If you have a story that doesn't involve Ryan Murphy, I'd rather hear that only because because You obviously have an allegiance to Ryan Murphy, so that would swing things. I mean, you know, the you have to play with the D you have to work with the D P but you're not you Yeah. I won't put any names in it, but yeah ⁓ But you know what I mean, is like some some random show. Sure. Whatever. So and even in you know, guest directors or whatever, so what happens is the director will come in and not get along with the D P. Yeah. Which is like, okay, that happens. Yeah. ⁓ whether it's through Some sort of respect issue or I think Or maybe they just have totally different visions, you know. I mean, it it can actually not have animosity and it's just like I'm not seeing what you're seeing, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And so what usually happens is the director will overstep the DP and come straight to the operator and say, Do it this way. It's exactly what I'm asking about. So what do you do? And so you're there and you hear this and the DP has just told you to do it a different way. Mm-hmm. So I've made the mistake of doing what the director asked me to do. And then later get reamed out by the DP. Right. So I'm like, I'm not doing that. So what I honestly, what I like to do, the director will come over and say, Hey, let's do it this way. And I'll be like, let's bring in s the DP and talk about it. Because I think he wanted me to do something different. Right. And so you bring them together and then everybody sort of plays nice because there's a third witness. That's a very good way of putting it though. that Is probably my go-to situation. That's where you put your dollar grip over. You go stand right next to me while this conversation is going to be. This is my witness. I need more witness. My HR witness. The other way to play it is okay, you get asked to do it and the DP's not around and you can't be like, hey, let's bring him in. And then you go to the DP and you say, Hey, the director asked me to do this. I know you want me to do something different. Yeah. ⁓ do you want me to go back to the director and talk about it? And then I'll and I'll be the middleman. Gotcha. And be like, no, the D P says do it this way and this is why. And then I'll go back and I'll Hey, I talked to the D P he says he wants me to do it this way and this is why. Just want you to know that. And at some point we have to go to lunch so someone should make a decision. Right. Yeah. Or I'll just say, I'm stuck in the middle. Yeah. So basically, you just you just bring it out in the open. Yes as we're Bring it out in the open and just like, okay, here's the issue. Yeah. Let's not play politics. Yeah. Let's Let's make a good show. I actually I I asked that question almost ever everybody, but actually the way you just laid it out is really good because the reality is you want to bring it out in the open without going you two are not getting along well together and I can't be in the middle, which is essentially what you're doing, but but you know, you're sort of it's like you're almost playing dumb about it in a way, but but those situations happen. What about ⁓ you know, you've worked with a lot of big name actors, some of whom have are tough, some of whom are really easy. what what are you an approach to working with difficult actors? ⁓ or actors in general? Yeah. Yeah. I think you have to have a relationship as an operator with the actors. Yeah. You're asking them to do certain things, you're asking questions about what they're gonna do. And you'll get an actor who sa you know, you'll ask them like, Hey, when you when you come forward to the table, could you be a little bit this way? And the actor will be like, I don't know what the heck I'm gonna do. Just follow me. And you're like Done. Okay. That's out in the open now. Yeah. Don't ask ⁓ to do anything. There you go. and if you want them to do something, go to the director. And the director can go to them. And and in that case, do you go to the director and go, Look, I hate to be coming to you with this, but I just know this this this person not listening to me. And if you want this shot that way, I need your help with this. Is that that kinda Yeah. Yeah. Just lay it out like that. This is the shot you want. Yeah. They don't they don't want to commit to doing it that way. And they don't wanna and they're not listening to they don't want to listen to me or whatever, you know. So have you had the flip side where a director comes up to you and goes, ⁓ this person's can you talk to the actor because they're just not Yes. Yeah. We've had all these situations, right? The director is afraid of the actor, right? Yeah. But they know you know the actor well. Yeah. Or by the way, not even not even afraid. I've had some directors who are smart enough to know. This person and I are not jiving together and if I talk to them it's gonna make things worse. So can you mention this? You know, which is you know, which it to me actually I sort of respect because it's like, okay, you're you're accepting what the whatever the situation is. I mean, truthfully, you probably should figure out a way to work around it, but if you can't, at least you're not sticking your fingers in your ears and you know pretending it's not happening. I mean, you mentioned it earlier about reading the room. So if how whatever's gonna work. Yeah. You know, without with the least amount of offense to stall the the stall the show or s to stall the creativity or value that you're creating. Yep. ⁓ I was gonna say on the other hand you'll get actors who will they'll hit a mark and they'll do whatever you ask. Yeah. You know, and that's and that's awesome. And you can chat with them about baseball or you know, the how the kids, you know, what's going on and i you know, you really have to read the room and and even those people who are f super friendly to you. But they have an emotional scene, then you read the room and you're not talking about kids, you're not talking about baseball. You're okay, they're in their zone. Yeah. Doing their thing and you respect that and you keep your crew also respecting that. That's part of the leadership of an operator. I could not agree with you more. It's a and it is all about respect and recognizing I mean, I you know, ⁓ I some people disagree, but I think they have the hardest job on set only because everything that they're seeing, they're doing is under a microscope. Not that acting is necessarily pr harder than You what Corey's doing on the back of the crane, they're very different. They're both hard. But people are looking at them while they're doing it, which is which is, you know, a whole different different level of it. Do you know? What about ⁓ what do you think the difference between a a a good operator and a great operator? Like what attributes would a great operator have that a good operator would not? ⁓ I like to talk about layers. Okay. Your first layer would be you set up a shot that works. Right. Everybody's in the frame or what it Nuts and Bolts. Nuts and bolts. Right. And then you take it to the next level and you're gonna add like let's say you're gonna add some emotion to it by doing a move or some artistic framing that makes sense. ⁓ and then, you know, maybe go to the next layer where you're going to accentuate a piece of the acting you know, you're gonna do a little push in or something. Anyway, I so I think a good operator is going to like keep it all in the frame and and make and make a decent frame. And a great operator is gonna adapt and be able to literally add emotion to the scene by what they do with the frame. And that could be holding still and not moving the frame that little bit, right? To to just in case they take another step. or that could be like just a subtle push in. Or it's like, I'm gonna put them on the dead edge of the frame because they're trapped or whatever. It's like put some meaning behind what you're doing. Everything should have a meaning. And literally in this business, if you have a if you have a purpose for why you're doing something, you're already 500% farther than a lot of people. Like I'm doing this frame because this reason. Like if somebody comes up to you, asks you, why'd frame like that? And you don't have an answer, like get an answer. Right? Make make a reason. You know, ⁓ they told me to get a two shot, so I got two shots. Okay. Yeah. You're a good operator. You're not a great one though. Yeah, yeah. Right? anyway, it's a great sum of the difference. No, that's a great that's a I mean I agree with all that. It's just a great way of explaining it. And that's the tech part. Then you could go into the psychology part and the leadership and the Yeah. What what about, you know, there's this ⁓ I often give a disclaimer for this, but there's this whole concept that the A camera runs you know, A camera operator runs the set, which I I actually have a little bit of a problem with. I I actually think the A camera operator is responsible for the set, not devolving into complete chaos and burning to the ground. ⁓ mainly mainly not because it's our job, but just because like you're sort of in the center, ⁓ the nucleus of it. So you're constantly sort of like you get your glove out and you're catching balls that are falling and putting them upright and helping and you know. ⁓ w can you speak to that about just what what's involved in that, what you feel your p your part of that is? Yeah. ⁓ That's what I I I would run my sets. ⁓ not with like an iron fist, but with an open ear, both ears open, trying to figure out what ⁓ like what is gonna slow us down, what's gonna speed us up, what what's gonna make the B camera shot work as well. ⁓ efficiency, ⁓ storytelling. You know, y you're like the traffic controller of sorts. ⁓ And I think it's I think it's a in in the eyes of a D P, you're like a gym. 'Cause you're fixing problems that they don't questions they don't have to answer. They never get to them. They never the question never gets passed gets to them. Not because they shouldn't get that, but they don't need it. That that a you know. Yeah. Obviously the questions that are D P questions should get to them. Well yeah, you're you're you're filtering, right? You're going, There's no reason they need to ever deal with this, let me fix it. Right. Some question about the boom operator or whatever. Yeah, like the he D P doesn't need to worry about that. Let him deal with his aesthetics and so forth. ⁓ and so you're you're kind of wrangling that and I think making things run smoother. And do you work with devolving the chaos? Yeah. But do you work a lot with the first A D? Yeah. How's what's that relationship like? I mean, that relationship is like ⁓ you know, at the beginning of a shot, we're like, ⁓ we're gonna have to lay dance floor, it's gonna be twenty minutes just for that. Can you get everybody off of the set? And we can do it in fifteen minutes. Yeah. Like if you have people in the set, it's gonna take twenty five minutes. If you just clear the set and let the guy lay the floor, it'll take fifteen and then bring everybody back. That's that's the kind of stuff with the first AD or ⁓ we're a little bit behind with this or that. I mean A lot of the time questions usually go to the D P but I'll take some of that as well. Yeah. Like they'll come up with like, What do think? And I'm you I'll look around and be like, Yeah, I think we're like probably ten. And are usually checking back and forth about I think this is what we still have left for the scene. What are you hearing anything different? Yeah, I mean w I've had those conversations too, which I f I always find funny. ⁓ everybody's choices because I do think that's a D P question. Yeah. And a director question, right. But they'll yeah What's your guess? We'll have an ID, they're like, Yeah, what else do you think we owe here? Yeah. They're like, ⁓ maybe this and that and that. Like, okay, all right. You know, because they're planning on bringing in the next actor or yeah, you know, next scene, or should we start moving equipment? So ⁓ so that's helpful. Yeah, I mean, the as an operator you should have a good relationship with the DP, the director, the first A D. Sound people, props, the set dresser, the Yeah, no, every essentially everybody. What about working with the boom operator? Because I gotta assume was Gunnar your boom operator on on Gunnar wasn't, no, I think he was Niptuck. ⁓ he was niptuck. Patrick okay. Yeah. Yeah. Your dance partners complete like honestly, right? Totally. Yeah. Right. ⁓ yeah, working with the sound guy. It's th that again, there's a whole different world with working with people and then just like yelling at people. Yeah yeah. You know? One one like a yeller. I'm ⁓ my gosh, you should see me yell. Just tyrant. But here's the deal, like I'll be on a set, right? And the boom will come into the frame and the operator will yell out Boom up during dialogue. And I'm like, you just lost the dialogue. Yeah. Yeah. But guess what? In today's day and age, they can paint that boom out for not very much money. Yeah. So that's my my my thing is I'm not gonna yell at the boom guy for getting the boom in the shot. Well I know they created out. And you've also just created anxiety. I there's all sorts of negative things about it. And you've you've basically thrown someone under the bus and Yeah. Yeah. So they're angry at being embarrassed. Well what about what about ⁓ just working out moves with them. ⁓ yeah. You know, ⁓ especially when you're when you know you're gonna you're gonna freelance a little bit and you're not quite sure. Yeah. Like ⁓ I think that's just the relationship you have with them. And Like we've done some like three sixties in like the choir room or something on Glee where it was we would have a plan and then I would do that plan and then I would tell them, Hey, this time I'm gonna do something different and that way they could make their escape at a different moment. Yep. So that's just more communication. And then every once in a while I'll forget and and they'll say, ⁓ you did something different, Andrew and it's like that little smile and it's like, I'm sorry. You know? But actually it's a mutual respect. We need sound and we need camera. Yeah. It's funny because i i you say I'm sorry and I've done that too. It's like I think that's important because at the end of the day it's like I totally boned you and I I know it. Yeah. I'm not I'm not sorry I did it 'cause I really like the shot. But but I did sorry I didn't tell you. Yeah, but I I didn't tell you when I wish I had, but I didn't know I was gonna do that. You know, or whatever. Yeah. I mean you can s I y there's you don't need to be macho to be a leader. Yeah. Right. Just communicate. A hundred percent. Right. Yeah. Anyway, so that's what I th that's how I feel with any of the other departments and the Yeah, the boom guys, they get a hard time. They they do. They you know. Yeah. I don't well I don't think they have anybody th they have anybody on set who's who's looking out for them completely. I mean they sort of have to look out for themselves and they're sort of alone on some level. Mm-hmm. So I usually try I I usually try to pull them in. Also because the thing is they'll save your hide at some point, you know, like pulling a chair out of your way that they realize is going to be in your or or whatever it is. I mean we've all been there. Yeah. If you have a good relationship with them. Whereas other ones will put the chair in your way because you've just bone them twice and they're unhappy about it. What about working with second team? Second team, I love to work with second team. Usually good friends with second team. ⁓ I want to go back to the boom operator thing just once. I had a thought. If a boom operator shows up to do a take and they have not been on set until they call for a rehearsal Very little respect for that. I very little respect. They pull the boom and they're ⁓ I got a shadow over there. I got a thing, and where am I gonna be? And it's like you were gonna be here ten minutes ago and we set up this shot and the dolly went into the corner and you don't have a place to go. That's where you were gonna be. Fair enough. So if they don't participate in the setup. very little respect. You're on your own. Yeah. No, well I and truthfully that goes for probably any department, but I I know what you mean. It's like especially with shadows and reflections and and whatever. Yeah. And and actually I will say if I'm new on a set or I'm day playing or whatever, I mean it's no it's no surpr ⁓ surprise to anybody. You're you're you're instantly sort of litmus testing everybody to go, w who who do I have to be aware of and who can I who can I just like and if I don't if we if I see a w you know, as we're rehearsing, I see a a wall of glass And within a couple of minutes the boom operator isn't like, you know, either out there with the pole looking or coming up to me or whatever, I'm like, ⁓ okay. Right. Right. A good a good one is gonna come up and be like, what are we gonna do about the class? Yeah. Yeah. Or or or you know, trying to find some angle that doesn't work before they go, like trying to figure it out themselves or but at least some some ⁓ evidence that they realize that there's a problem and they're trying to get out ahead of it. Right. Yeah. Which I'm a hundred percent with you there, then it's like, ⁓ we're we're gonna work well together. But Yeah, Patrick was that way. He was Yeah. Amazing that way. And that's the best that's the best thing in the world because ⁓ th that's always the thing for me, which is just like, ⁓ god, I've just figured all this out and I didn't see that piece of that that ⁓ you know, that window frame back there or something like that. And thankfully a good boom operator's like, ⁓ I'll be out of that. Don't worry about it, ⁓ great. Yeah. So anyway, that that was my side on that. So second team team, yeah. 'Cause I gotta imagine Glee dot Glee was like thirty second teamer. I mean, that was just the main cast, the the kids, and then the adults. And so there was a lot of people and and if you have a good relationship with them, it's fun. Do you specifically try to create a good relationship with them? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I I and ⁓ and also an etiquette of behavior, right? Like if I'm if I get on a show and the stand in comes in and like pops their phone out, I'm like I'll just take them aside and be like, when you're standing in, there's no looking at your phone. Yep. You know, there's and I'm kind of in between in terms of like super strict. Like some DPs are like, when you stand in, you're standing facing the right direction, looking at the other actor in their eyes. So two stand ins, like staring at each other from two inches away. Fifteen minutes, right? And I'm not that strict, but I'm like, when we're doing our thing, you do your thing. Right. There's a lot of sitting offset. So when you're on set, do it. And then I also try to be respectful and if we're waiting on actors, I'll release ⁓ So that's actually one of my cues to let 'cause I'm on so many shows where the producers are watching from Paris, France or wherever. Right? Yeah. They're not there. Yeah. And they're on a beach with their iPhone out with the live feed. Yeah. And the other thing is like if and I found this out early. If you sit there and you tweak until the actors show up, it looks like you held up the show. Right? So what I do is I finish either if I'm an operator, finish setting up the shot. Yeah. And when I'm done, I clear the set. I'm like, all right, you done, out. You done, out, second team, out. And then they know they're not waiting on me anymore. But if they see me going around tweaking little things or whatever, it's perception. And I like to tweak. I like to make little reflections. Twinking something until the last minute. And it's not anything important that anybody'll know but me, but I'm just like, I like this better or whatever. ⁓ but I mean that was just a that was just like an efficiency thing. Because I got pulled aside. I'm like, you're taking too long. I'm like, what are you talking about? Yeah. I'm waiting on people. And they're like, it doesn't look like it. It looks like you're working until the very moment they arrive. And then I'm like, ⁓ Okay. I got I got the game now. That's a great note. So it's like second team, done out. Yeah. You're done out. And then like why isn't second team? 'Cause we're ready. You know? Yeah, but you bro you brought up something interesting which is, you know, I I think actually being s a good second team is is ⁓ the most i it's invaluable and it's also a really hard job because it it's hard to stand there and look at someone else and do not do anything for ten minutes while people are moving around you and You know, this and that and the other. But that is that is the job. And it's and it's and it and it's weird because I think from just a human point of view, it's just like, ⁓ I'm just standing here. I can look at my phone or I can do but but really no, it's like your job is to stand there and point in that direction and and hold this chair up in the air or whatever. Right. ⁓ and ⁓ you know, I've said it before, the great ones will will they'll save your butt. I mean, there's no question about it. Especially the ones who who know the actors who are like I know he just picked up the phone before he sat down, but I guarantee you he's gonna sit down and pick up the phone because I just know him. Yeah. Yeah. Aren't those the good ones? Yeah. They're the ones like taking notes and and doing this and telling you little stuff. Didn't you down first? Yeah, but he's never gonna do that. I'll do that if you want, but he's not gonna do that. So just be aware. Yeah. And yeah, th those those those are those are the best. yeah. ⁓ so ⁓ one thing I wanted to ask you about was which I think is unique to well, it's not only you, but you're one of the few people I know who is a You you come from a very devout household and you you you your family is religious, you're part you're part of the Mormon church. Right. And you live in Hollywood and work in Hollywood. What's the how do you do that, right? I mean ⁓ d d does that is is that does that cause issues? Does that bring things up? How do you Yeah, so I've had several instances. So a lot of people know the name Mormon. So the the the the Correct name of the church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Some people say LDS or Latter-day Saints. It's common. ⁓ so I mean that's one of the reasons why when I came down to do glee, I moved my family down. Right. I think this industry has a tendency to churn people out into bad behavior. And ⁓ yeah. I mean, that's one reason why I did not go after features. You know, it seems like everybody comes in and they're like, All I wanna do is make a big Marvel feature, whatever, you know, a Spielberg show. And I'm like, Okay, so that means you're gone eight months out of the year while your kids are going to school and your wife's going to tennis club or whatever, and it's like, I don't want that. I wanna go home. I wanna sleep in the same bed as my wife. I want to see my kids, even though it's twelve hours, at least I can see them in the morning or in the evening or whatever. And in my household it was I would come home at like whatever, nine, nine thirty And it was jump time and it kinda bothered my wife because essentially jump time was three songs that we would play. There was Van Halen, there was ⁓ jump ⁓ somet something three thousand was it. Anyway. And the kids would get on the parents' bed and they would just jump and then I would grab them during the Van Halen and I would play their belly like a guitar, right? So that This is when they're eighteen, nineteen years old. Dad, you gotta stop doing something. A little bit younger, right? Anyway, I'd get them all riled up. So Those are the things that I would try to do to to stay to make up for it. To make up for some of the some of the industry now. There have been shows that I didn't want to work on. Like ⁓ Because of the content. Yeah. So here's the irony is American Horror Story was one of those. ⁓ they're like, ⁓ we want you to do the show and I'm like, I'm not into it. Just just because it's like I don't want to be a part of that. Yeah, it's like a cult and it's like killing and it's like all this weird like It's not a field. What gets me is is like sexual violence. It's just like I'm like it just creeps me out and it's just w weird and and s and so I did do five days on the show, which were musical days. So Jessica Lang was singing and and somebody else singing and so I and Ryan Ryan is a great guy. He he would fly me out to like New Orleans. We're doing a musical number. I want you there. And I'm like, You guys, you have a steady cam guy, right? I'm like, this is awkward. Yeah. This is a little more awkward than telling a DP you want to use me, right? Anyway, so anyway, so I did five days and then we're talking about like bumping to DP. And ⁓ he's like, Okay, yeah, I'm gonna get you a show. So what does he offer me? American Horror Story. Full well knowing that that that I mean he must have known known that that's an issue. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so I'm like, Ryan, this is the show like that I would refuse to work on. Yeah. Like why are you giving this to me? Like this is a test. And he said, Andrew, I'm gonna write this season so you won't be offended. That's pretty much like, ⁓ I was like, that's cool. So in terms of being devout and stuff like that, so I mean there's still violence in the show, but there was like no occult and there was no like weird sexual violence. Yeah, it was essentially aliens and it was like a vampire situation. Right. And I was like, okay. That that's a credit to you. I mean, yeah, you obviously meant a lot mean a lot to him, so ⁓ he he adjusted and he's also, to the best of my knowledge, not the type of person who goes, Hey, what does everybody else want? He has a very specific style and what he wants. Right. He's very he's he's particular. Very particular. He's in my world he's a genius. There's a reason his shows are they they there are Ryan Murphy shows. You know what they are. They have a look, they have a feel. They have yeah. Yeah. So that that's some instances. There's been there has there have been like sit I think there've been maybe like one or two situations where I excused myself from a day. Just because of the content? Because of the content. Yeah. And w did you explain that was the reasoning? Yeah. Anybody give you any fe any No, I don't I don't think they had gr felt like they had grounds to. It was almost like okay. Yeah, we get it. Yeah. Like your excuse or whatever. And then there was ⁓ and then I and I li I did leave a show. Because that you took over on. ⁓ God. ⁓ now you're making me feel badly. No. In fairness, I had just moved back to Los Angeles. I didn't have any work. I didn't know anybody. ⁓ No, I don't know if that was it, but ⁓ not the case. I did leave one show that I was just like, this is just so far from what I believe in that I don't want to be involved. Yeah. Just because like you're you're going home every night and you don't you just don't feel good about yourself. Look, I I ⁓ I'll I'll I have no problem saying it. I got I I did a couple days and I got asked to do criminal minds, which is just one of the darkest shows I've ever seen. And I just I said to him, it's not that I won't feel good. It's just I don't wanna I don't want to be confronted with what what you're talking about and thinking about every day. I just don't want that in my life. Like I it's not done I'm not gonna be happy. Yeah. ⁓ because I did one show, I did one episode with him and I was just like, How do you do this every w like this is really dark. Yeah. ⁓ so I get it. But but but that said the reason that I ask is look, I think there are a lot of people who have their ⁓ They have their beliefs, they have their lines that they want but but they get grayed because, you know, it's work and it's I want to work with this person and and et cetera, et cetera. So and d and did you and you're you have two you have two sons, right? Yeah. ⁓ and did you you did a mission at one point through the church? Yeah. So I served a two year mission in northern France. Do you think ⁓ do you think that that The the sk skills that you were and you what eighteen years old? ⁓ nineteen to twenty one. Nineteen to twenty one. So nineteen to twenty one you go to France. You don't s you don't speak French at that point? Yeah, you go to well you no, not really. I mean they go to a training center, right, for six weeks and try to learn. Come out speaking fluent French. Yeah, right. ⁓ and and from my little experience in France, the people in France don't really want to talk to you unless you in French, unless you can really speak French. They're like, just don't even try. ⁓ and basically y back then before cell phones and whatever you were on you were on your own with whoever you were with and whatever church Right, you get assigned a companion. You have to be with twenty four seven. Really? Yes. You have to ⁓ wow required. So do you do do you think that th that experience and that sort of like rigidity and having to follow rules and et cetera, et cetera, helped you within the film industry? Did you did you get life lessons and life skills from that? I mean definitely life lessons. Yeah. In terms of like being able to adapt to different people. Because you would have several different companions throughout your mission. ⁓ They would assign you different cities. And it doesn't make a difference whether you're you're they don't care whether you get along. Yeah, they don't ask you who. Yeah, yeah. And so you don't you don't fill out a big like questionnaire of like, no, I get up early in the morning. Yeah, right. You get up in the early anyway. Yeah. ⁓ so life lessons, yeah, for sure. And just communication, because you're out there to try and communicate a message or you're doing a lot of service for the community. Yeah. And and just living on your own like that in a foreign country. Yeah. You know. You're ready for anything. Do it doing your own thing and yeah, you're you're definitely ready for more than the average 19 year old at the time or 21 year old when you're done. So I think that that does ⁓ definitely help. And it's interesting, like going back to the religious part on set, I have had questions about my beliefs and and other aspects of the religion on set that could border on like in today's day and age, somebody would cry foul. I'm not that kind of person. Well, you're saying questions people asking you something? Or people questioning you. People discussing your your religion with you, in other words, you're talking about Yeah, in a in a jestful way. In a non positive way. A non positive way, right? I got you. And ⁓ You're saying there's some people who would take that and go, ⁓ let me get on the phone to HR. Exactly, right? I'm not I'm not that person. I think the world needs to kind of back off from Yeah. A little bit or a lot of bit. ⁓ laugh at yourself a little bit and just move on. And ⁓ so I mean, so that's interesting. But then again, that's my attitude. It's just like, you know, laugh it off, okay. Whatever. It is what it is. It is what it is. Yep. And and I'm in the industry and a lot of the morals don't align with my morals, but it is my chosen career. Yeah. And I love to do it. So, you know. I'm gonna do it. So Well, 'cause I rem I remember when we started working together, ⁓ well, the only time we worked together actually, I think. Maybe we worked together at some other point. ⁓ it's probably it. ⁓ but on that on that movie is like, you we were I was B camera and we were o we were off on thousand foot, you know, whatever, sitting on some mesa for half an hour. Yeah. And I remember talking to you quite a bit about the LDS church and like I didn't I'd never met anybody and I was like I'll you know, I ask you all ⁓ probably all the stupid questions that everybody asks you, but we had great conversations about that. There's so many misconceptions, why not ask the questions? Sure, sure, sure. So that I mean that was kinda and this was like I know this is I'll explain this afterwards, but this was pre internet, which I'll I'll what is what is that? It's in the glossary of ⁓ so it's not like I could, you know, Google this stuff or whatever. So I like, ⁓ this is cool. But that's that's to me actually a big part of the industry is you meet all these people with different backgrounds and you're like, ⁓ I wanna learn about what you know and what your experience was which well I've I think I've extended out maybe opportunities to you that you didn't take because of religious holidays in your life. Yeah. Which is like I totally respect. To be honest, I think g the reason I didn't take glee might have been because I was going back for a holiday now that I think. Yeah, those are the the high holidays, right? Sorry my religion just screwed me again. Could have been my show. No. I'm sure Providence helped you out and you've done quite well. It's all I'm sure I did something else or whatever. But and ⁓ you know, one other show I wanted to ask you about was ⁓ you did ⁓ you did prom and Maddie Libatique was the DP, right? And Scott Sakamoto was the operator who's an amazing study camera operator and incredible A camera operator. Yeah. And you were on there and you're in there with Ryan directing. So what what was what was that? 'Cause that's I mean, i to be honest, of like everybody I know who's ever worked in a situation, that seems like ⁓ potentially one of the more prickly situations that could be out there because yeah. It's sort of like the director's got his great operator and the D P's got his great operator and you guys are probably, I'm guessing, both just going, I don't know, I just want to do good work. Exactly. Well, that's the thing is is ⁓ Scott Sakamoto is so awesome. You know, he's mellow. Yeah. Great operator. He does he does his you know. ⁓ you know, legendary. Yeah. In terms of his ⁓ Did you guys have a like discussion early on just so you could go how do you want to work? I think we kinda warmed up to it. Yeah. You know. ⁓ I definitely had the conversation with Maddie. Yeah. We had went to like a little coffee shop to meet. Yeah. And we and we talked about it just like I did with Bill. I'm like, hey let's just talk about what this actually Let's just talk about the elephant in the room. I wanna be open about this. And he was cool. And so he's like, No, it's cool. I just wanna have I wanna have Scott. Ryan wants to have you, let's have you both. Like I'm like, all right, cool. And then there was always the question of who's gonna do steady cam. Well that's what I was that's what I kinda wanted to ask about. Yeah. The answer is we both did some steady cam on the show. But Ryan had me do most of the musical stuff. Just 'cause there's a comfort level there. Yeah. There's a comfort level there. Essentially it went and we and we got along. Yeah. We got along great. And sometimes, ⁓ you know, Scott would be on Steady Cam or he would be on ⁓ the Ronin with Chris Hare. Uhhuh. 'Cause he would operate and Chris would ⁓ yeah, it was just a variety of different Yeah. It's just ⁓ the reason I asked is 'cause it's just a funny situation 'cause you've got like four really amazing people in that in that, you know, you've got a great DP, a great director, two great operators. Yeah, like how does that and and in a weird way it's probably stepping over like I mean, you can't go wrong, but it's also like, you know, you you sort of like, well, who's making the call here? And and I'm sure that, you know, on a level Maddie wants to keep Ryan happy and and you want to keep, you know, Maddie happy and and you know, just it's it's a No, I think it was a good symbiosis because I could ⁓ Fill in Maddie on certain things that Ryan liked. That's what I was w I wondering. Yeah. ⁓ you know, Ryan likes to come to set with something to show before gosh. You know, we he wants us to set something up for him. It's just like showing something. Without a rehearsal. Yeah. So we would, you know, set some things up and so that was kind of new and ⁓ just the little quirks and things like that. And but it's a good experience overall? It was a g I think it was a great experience. It's a great look. It was yeah, it was a lot of fun and it was all I mean, one of the great parts of the experience was the experience of having of these four people making it making it work. Yeah. And w what each of us would put in, you know, and in terms of like Scott and me getting along, it's like we're both confident enough in what we do that we're not fighting each other. Yeah. And when he was do I mean, I asked 'cause this is what I would be doing. When he was doing steady cam, were you over there like watching? 'Cause like we never get to watch each other do steady cam and yeah. I'd want to watch Scott operate just 'cause it's like to be able to watch some of that caliber operate. Yeah. I I just want to go, Wow, how do you you what are you doing there? And what you're watching the frame or whatever because it is one of the things that like to this day, I'll get on a set, you know, I'll just come in for B camera or something or I'll I'll whatever. And someone will be doing steady cam and I'll at it and be like, God, that looks so cool. Doing steady camp. Well, because you never get to see someone doing it, right? Right. Somebody else doing Like you're in it, so you don't get it. And so to get to see someone like, you know, of that caliber do it, I'd be like Especially do it really well. Well that's what I mean. Yeah. And and and also watch and go, like, what what am I doing wrong that he's doing right? Right. You know? See he see Scott's like I I I call I th I call these like generations of steady camp people. So I think first generation is like Garrett Brown and that group, right? Yep. And then there's like Scott Sakamoto, Chris Harhoff and that world. And I think they're like the second generation. They're like the the the eighties or w whatever, late eighties, whatever nineties. When it was kind of coming into its and then there's another group like nineties or whatever. I'm in that group. Whatever. You were early nineties maybe. Yeah, something like that. So anyway. And those that second generation that Scott's in, those guys are like legends. Those are like the guys that Incredible. Like, we're gonna do a steady cam shot. They're coming in. It was a big deal. Look at ⁓ unload their gear, you know? It was like ⁓ So, you know, he's he's in he has that legendary status and he has all the respect in the world for me. Yep. All those all those tenured excellent operators do. Yeah, no question. Well that's why I asked about it because it's just like it's not an everyday situation. ⁓ headsets. You work with headsets? And forgetting not talking about cranes, talking about regular operators. I know. I ask every operator. Okay, so I have mixed feelings on headsets and I have mixed feelings on remote heads. Hang on. I I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna no no I'm gonna rephrase you. What on what did you say on remote heads? Remote heads. ⁓ remote heads. ⁓ I'd like to hear what that is actually. Tell me about the remote heads first, but then what I'm gonna ask you is I want to know what your thoughts about working on headsets as an operator is and then what working on headsets is D. And see if you're a complete hypocrite. That's a really topic. So wait, remote heads? What what are you Okay, so remote heads, so I don't know your experience, but Ever since COVID and maybe even before. ⁓ I know where you're going. Go. Preach. The the operator's offset. The Dolly Grip and the remote head are on set doing the shot and setting up and it's all headsets and do this, do that over the headset, and it drives me absolutely crazy. I'm not gonna say any names, but I believe that the last time I physically saw you might have been when you were on a set where I was day playing and the A camera operator was doing that. And you and I were both like, Go this drives me crazy. I think that I think we had this discussion. I totally agree with you. I d look the ro the running is a great tool, but my thing is like the second I can get it out of there and get back in there and and my big reason is I just think it's unfair to the actors to have just, hey, there's this machine and there's a guy six feet away pushing a dolly talking to someone on a headset. Right. There's a robot. Drives me nuts. I like the personal connection. It's it's it's popular. To do the remote head thing, it's probably gonna continue to be that way. And I just need to be like, Okay. Like it's one of those things that I'm just gonna deal with now. It's like focus pullers who are no longer on the camera. It's just like that's just the way it's gone. But I I I personally don't think the the operating is as good. Just because when you're in the environment, you you just understand it it's just better. Yeah. One, you feel the dolly move and you can adjust immediately. No question. Two, you can look around and see what's happening. You know, you can wink at the boom operator to move his boom ups without causing a fuss. Mm-hmm. There's so many things you could plus you can run the set. You can't run the set back at your station, like looking at your phone or whatever. It's like I like the involvement of having people on set. I was on B camera in the room on the Pee Wee, you know, doing whatever I was doing and the A camera operator is, you know, four buildings away on a on a headset talking to the dolly grip. Right. And at one point the A Dollar group leaned into me and he knew me. And he leaned into me and he goes, Hey, you think I should start moving when the door opens or what and I'm like, I'm not making that call. They do talk to talk to Mission Control and ask them. And he goes, No, I'm just asking your opinion. I like, Well it's me, I'd do it when the door opens. But you know, I don't know. Right. But you know, I felt for him 'cause he's, you know Yeah, yeah, yeah. I yeah, you lose a little bit of like that connection, right? I mean all the stories we're telling are about human connection and to not have that Present connection. I know we have the in our ears connection. It's not the same. I f I feel like it is not the same. And you don't have the eye you don't have you're not looking at someone in the eye and you're not And the other thing is ⁓ you know, whether you're look when you operate off our monitor or you're operating in the eye piece and you open up your left eye, you're not seeing like their foot start to twitch before they stand up or or you're not you're just losing all of that information. Right. I'm with you a hundred percent. But headsets. All right. First is an opposite. ⁓ I mean that goes a little bit along with the remote head. So headsets, so I've been on the bad end of headsets where you get constant chatter during the shot. Mm-hmm. What to do, what not to do, what the other camera should be doing, but you're still hearing it. Yeah. I've been on the bad end of that stick when the actor hears the voice on the headset talking to you. so in that way, not a fan of headsets during the shot. Outside of the shot, like setting up, they can be kind of useful. you know, just being able to talk about frames and so forth. And so I was kind of mixed. So on Horse Story we had ⁓ for just the remote heads and stuff like that. When you were ⁓ DP or something? DP, yeah. And and I found ⁓ useful and I probably broke my own rules every once in a while and talked like, why are you like change of frame or whatever. Yeah. And ⁓ so heads I mean headsets have come a long way in terms of like multi-channel and this and that and the other. And I remember being on a show and there were separate cameras and they handed me two sets of headsets. And they're like, this is A and this is B. And I was like, I'm not wearing two headsets. You guys can wear two headsets. I'm not wearing two heads and maybe that maybe I'm because I'm a jerk. But ⁓ I was like, I I'm not doing that. And Honestly, I put both headsets on the cart and I walked out there. And then I'm like, Wh where where are they? Where who's who's where? You know? ⁓ A camera's behind this corner. B cameras behind this corner. And I had a director come up to me and they're like, Could you ask the operators to set up their stations next to each other? Because when I want to give a note, I I want them to be in the same spot. Right. I was like, Yeah, cool. All right, that makes sense. ⁓ so anyway, there's there's that situation with the headsets. ⁓ With with features, I've had headsets that are it's funny because somebody somebody told this story about radios, because it used to be radios, right? And I actually walkie talkies. I actually prefer walkie-talkies. Yeah. Different channels, talk to different people. Yeah. So I did a feature with headsets that go to three departments camera, electric, grip, all on the same headset. Same channel. Same channel. You hear every conversation that comes out of the DP's mouth. That's great. And that could be about donuts at the craft service. And it is a lot of times. Right. Yeah. And so I'm like, ⁓ this is kind of new. But there's just a lot of information that I didn't want to hear, but I was still attached. And everybody has their own system. I went along with it. I'm like, Yeah, cool. All right. Fine. And then there's the story of ⁓ D P handing the radio to an operator. And giving them a headset, the wire piece, and cutting the mic off in front of them. And they're like, This is for me to talk to you, not for you to talk to me. Wow. That was I didn't experience that, but somebody told me that. Okay. And I was like, Wow. Wow. That's interesting. All right. There you go. So and they're like, So when I talk to you, you do what I say. Like, whoa. Wow. So that's how this is gonna go. Yeah, so that's hardcore. That's hardcore headset stuff. Yeah, there's but I mean what are I mean, is that where you're headed with the headsets? I mean, it's just like one of those I like I like to be personal b with people, but also I appreciate efficiency, which headsets do bring. Yeah, so so here here's my thing about them, ⁓ and ⁓ again, anybody listening to all these is just be Why does he keep talking about headsets? ⁓ I I I hate them. I hate them with a passion. In between shots I can understand. Personally personally ⁓ I've never found a situation ⁓ unless there's some big physical gap. That's a whole you know, if y if it's a football field, I get it. But nine times out of ten, I just walk back to the monitor, you know, any notes or whatever, you know. The assistant has a headset so ⁓ no can come in. And I've had things where I've gone, look, in between takes I'll put it on, but I'm not gonna have it on while I'm on a take. Mm-hmm. And I've had people go, Well, I'll never talk to you during take. And it's like, great, then it doesn't need to be on my head 'cause you know, and I just I want both of my ears open. I I personally on a personal level I happen to have tinnitus, so they drive me crazy anyway, but that's another issue. But my big thing about them, which I've said over and over and I will continue to say over and over, and I'm probably losing jobs as we speak because of it, is simply that B camera operators who are coming up who are on headsets, I've noted I've seen this. are becoming reactive as opposed to proactive because they're expecting to hear if something is wrong. Mm-hmm. And if they don't hear it, then they don't make an adjustment. And and I've been on shows where I've said to the D P, look, if you if you you know, where they've gone like, hey, we're really training this person, we're bringing them up or whatever. And I've look, if you really want them to be a good camera operator, you gotta get the headset off their head because they are becoming reactive. Whereas you and I were thrown out there and we had no one talking to us and we went Should I keep that light in or should I c th you know, that practical and maybe I should cut it, maybe should be and you've got to make that decision. Whereas if they're on the headset and you're waiting for the DP to tell them, they'll be like, Well, I guess that's okay 'cause otherwise they would have said something, you know? Right. And and I think that that that's destructive to start your career that way. You know, if you and I are suddenly put on headsets, we're still gonna be operators, we're still gonna make our decisions or whatever. But I think that people coming up, it it's it's a bad thing. So again, put it on in between takes, sure. Talk to the D P they go, What that why didn't you put that practical on the frame? What the hell is your bring, you know? But during the take, I think you gotta be an operator. Yeah. You know? So that's my that's my It can be. I mean, I understand I understand why people are going there with because we've come into this world of remote heads, no rehearsals, focus pullers playing video games. Yep. ⁓ video games meaning the depressants system is a And it's all getting faster and faster and faster. But Yeah. And so it's like notes have to happen during the take and it's like I hate that. And well, and it doesn't make for good operating because if you if look, if you have to adjust in the middle of a frame in a take, to me you've ruined the shot anyway. So just like hold it and then figure it on the next one. But I also think there's another part of this that that's a larger part of what we're doing and where we're going with filmmaking that We're being told to go faster so we figure out a way to make it faster. So they tell us to go even faster so we figure out another way to and it's like almost like at a certain point you gotta go, No, we're we're doing we're we're going fast enough. Like maybe you should add on a day if you want you know right. But you can't make a T V show in six days, you know. It yeah. And so when we fix our own problems we almost create more problems, you know. So that's kinda where I'm at. Yeah, I hadn't seen it as my soaps. As the efficiency increases. We're we're our own worst enemies almost. Because you know, it is the kind of thing where it's like, Well, I don't know, last time you did this without a remote head and so now you don't get a remote head and it's you know, whereas if you go, Well, look, if you want that shot we need a remote head, you know, just pulling that out of the air. But anyway. ⁓ well this has been great. I wanna ask you two things before I go. One is has nothing to do with film. I love it. ⁓ I don't have anything else in my life. Tell everybody tell everybody what your Instagram account is and explain to me what this art art project that you're doing. I want to hear about this. Okay. ⁓ so I have a friend who has an Instagram account. Yeah. Which is it's an Instagram account that has to do with some art installations around LA, Hollywood. It's outsider art. What'd you call that? Outsider art. Outside. ⁓ outside art, yeah. Outside art? I don't know. Anyway. Anyway, the the handle is at P B J, like peanut butter and jelly. Yep. Dot H B Huntington Beach. Dot art. Sorry, dot I cut you off. Yeah. Dot art. Art. P B J dot H H B dot A R T. Yes. Yes. A R T. And it is It is ⁓ artwork that only shows up when it's w wet. So most of the installations are done on ⁓ concrete. It's stencil art done on concrete with a product that when it gets wet reveals the art. At the Cinerama Dome there are five famous actors. There's ⁓ Terminator, Jack Sparrow, ⁓ Venckman from Ghostbusters, ⁓ Ferris Bueller, and Han Solo. Out in front of the Cinerama Dome there's Over at Capitol Records, there's Billy Eilish, Taylor Swift, ⁓ Harry Stiles. There's a Van Halen one, right? There's a Van Halen Eddie Van Halen. Where's that? There is there's ⁓ there's there's one at Guitar Center in Hollywood, yeah, across the street. There's one at Guitar Center Orange County. Okay. And there is one at Amoeba Records. Okay. and Amoeba Records also has the other ⁓ pop stars. That's pretty cool. ⁓ it's kinda fun. So so you your friend creates ⁓ creates a large stencil that goes down and then this gets applied over it. So you ⁓ your friend has to make the large stencil somehow? Yeah. So the largest stencil that my friend has made would be at the staples center or the crypto center now. ⁓ huh. It was a thirteen and a half foot Kobe Bryant. Wow. ⁓ are these made on a machine? No, these are These are hand cut projected. ⁓ my friend will work on the artwork, ⁓ huh, dial it down into black and white image in terms of of tone. Okay. And then trace it and then cut it out with a razor. Wow. And then any floating ⁓ any floating parts of the design have to be suspended on a netting. If you go on to my friend's site, there is one example of the whole process. That's ⁓ really didn't know that. Yeah, and so then the stencil is laid out ⁓ on the sidewalk and then the ⁓ product is sprayed on with the hairstylist sprayer that keeps a consistent flow. And ⁓ it takes about half hour to dry and when it dries it disappears. That's amazing. And then when it gets wet, you see it shows back up. Yeah. And it's you know, summer motive like the Kobe one says, get better every day. That's cool. And that's his quote. And and are these things that that your friend has been asked to do or does on his or her own? So my friend does this on his own. Okay, gotcha. He f he finds it amusing. What he finds amusing is planning the whole situation where ⁓ for example, he did a five a six frame Indiana Jones series. It's twenty three feet long. Wow. And it's each frame is ⁓ has a different scene from a different Indiana Jones movie. Wow. Where's that? That is at ⁓ Grauman's Chinese Theater, in between Grauman's Chinese Theater and Madame Tussaud. That is very cool. So and the fun part of that is my friend will dress up as a construction worker. Boots, orange, long sleeve. Because nobody will ever Nobody will ever ask. I'm telling you, if you have a radio, you can walk onto any movie set. And it's a similar way. There's the construction hard hat. There's the tool belt and cones. And sometimes my friend will even print out a something that looks like a permit with some sort of bogus LA Arts Council. something Kobe project number zero eight four just in case someone asks just to give it some legitimacy and and ⁓ honestly he's never been challenged on so this is really it's performance art and art that's left over after the performance art. It's kind of incredible. It is both of those yeah it's like you reach a s like my friend reached a certain age and just wanted a little bit more excitement. Something youthful. That's fascinating. So I think this is filling that gap. So ⁓ after this this this podcast and the website become massive, maybe I'll ask your friend to put ⁓ the op logo somewhere like outside of Panavision or something like that. Absolutely. Well this has been ⁓ unbelievable sitting and talking to you. Actually, you know what? One of my favorite things about doing this podcast is I don't get to sit down with people that I like, talk talking like this for a long period of time. So this has actually been been really cool and I appreciate it. ⁓ I'll leave you with my final question that I sort of have started to leave everybody I'm gonna segue for a second. Rocky Road, my favorite Rocky Roads Rocky Screen. And we're out. ⁓ when I started this podcast, David Emmerich was the first person that I started with. Nice, good choice. I had this great idea that I was gonna like because I was like, ⁓ I'm gonna have a I'm gonna have a ⁓ I'm gonna have like a a a design to it in a way that I s come in and a way that I come out. Yeah. And like anything, like steady cam shots, you don't know what you're doing. You make it up as you go. So I had this whole thing where I was gonna ask everybody to bring a ⁓ a recipe. I was gonna start with a recipe and then at the end of when I was done with the podcast, I was gonna put together this recipe book. Well Emmerx being Emirx, he was like, This is my aunt so and so's mac and cheese, whatever I was like, I'm on to gold. Next five people were like, Yeah, I didn't bring anything. So I actually cut that out of the it's not even in there. I might leave it in David. But everybody else. But the way that I've decided to finish it, that's why I'm segueing into all this. Way that I just I finish everyone is to basically say this. First of all, thank you. It's great talking to you. Well my pleasure. But that said, leaving you with this final question. I'm a young camera operator. I'm trying to either I'm in the business. I'm I'm trying to make my way in the business. I'm trying to get better, I'm trying to like establish myself, I'm trying to make a career. Advice. All right. Young camera operator trying to make it. Find a mentor. You want somebody who has experience, right? Essentially that's what you're asking me. What's your experience to succeed? I mean, listen to op. Is that what this is called? The op. The op. Listen to the op. Thank you. And get all these get all this information. ⁓ and by the way, visit the op.io when it's out. Visit the op. ⁓ information is gonna be your friend, being a nice person, I think. goes a lot farther than being a jerk. ⁓ because you think that makes you feel powerful. But in terms of breaking into the business, it's like one of the we talked about a lot of the, you know, quote, bigger operators and people get these amazing breaks. I mean, sometimes that's just it. Prepare yourself to be ready for when that break arrives. You know, so If you can find a mentor that can just talk to you about anything like these stories, awesome. Just so that the mistakes that we've made you don't have to make in your life. I mean, that's a life lesson right there. And then learn so that when ⁓ when the opportunity comes you can shine and get quote lucky because you're prepared. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.