Dave C: Today's episode is a re-release of an interview I recorded in June of 2024. On today's episode, we'll talk about the mental game behind moving up, safety on set, good fellas, monsoon wedding, and of course, being taught filmmaking by Martin Scorsese himself. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website, the op.io, is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Lack it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Roll away. Victor30 Echo TikTok. Hey Mark. Can we sit? Hey there, everybody. Welcome back to the OP Podcast, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. My name is Dave Komitis, and I am your host, and I am really excited to be coming to you ⁓ from Chicago. Tonight, ⁓ where I am on location on a TV show. So if you hear the L in the background, I apologize for that, although it it actually is kind of a neat sound. a great guest coming to me over the internet today from New York City, ⁓ Heather Norton. ⁓ Heather was a first AC for ⁓ on on a ton of movies and T V shows and whatever, which is where I I first met her, ⁓ and is now an operator. ⁓ and I'm excited to talk to her about that transition and Her career and everything. Some of the credits, but not all of them by any means, because there's a lot of them. ⁓ as an assistant, Madam Secretary, Monsoon Wedding, Mona Lisa Smile, The Devil Wears Prada, Happy Ish, where we work together, Marley and me, Mr. Popper's Penguins, Insurgent, 25th Hour, You've Got Mail, Flirting with Disaster Before the Devil Knows You're Dead. ⁓ there's the list just keeps going on. And as an operator, ⁓ the time traveler's wife, Marry Me, Scenes from a Marriage, ⁓ Reshoots on a Quiet Place Part Two. ⁓ she is a really wonderful person, a good friend, ⁓ a great filmmaker, and I'm really excited to have you. Thanks for being here, Heather. ⁓ thanks so much for having me, Dave. Yeah, this is this I've been wanting to do this for a while, but it just hasn't hasn't worked out. How's how's New York? Is it cold? It's just wet right now. It was last week was brutally cold, and of course, that was the week where we were outside, nights, you know, like rain, snow, rain, back, whatever. ⁓ you know, so But you know, that's that's that's the best thing about New York is that we're shooting on the streets of a a working living city and you know, it's never easy. Yeah, that's the ⁓ having worked there quite quite a bit when I was back east, I can attest. I will say I'm in Chicago. It's rainy and nasty, although it's better than last week when it was I think they said it was two degrees and then there's that stupid like, but it feels like and it was like negative twenty seven and it's just like, why do you even I mean after after like twenty, does it make a difference? But ⁓ thankfully we are all interior, so I'm very, very happy about that. ⁓ yeah, it was what it was an exam it was a a great excuse for me to go and check those safety bulletins, you know, and find out what is the temperature that is dang too dangerous to shoot in. What if you know what what'd you find? Well if if you are working at n negative five or no, it's I guess five degrees Fahrenheit, which is what we were with wind chill, you in within thirty minutes you will get frostbite. Really? So You need to, you know, have proper clothing, you need to have warming tents. And they actually have in New York it's really hard to find real estate for the tents, you know, out in the street or wherever you are in the parks, they often don't let you put down tents. So ⁓ they use ⁓ you know, crew vans for warming, which which works really well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I I I actually remember when I was living back east, showing up at six PM in the winter, like right next to the river and just going The next twelve hours is going to be hell. And there's nothing I can do about it. And it doesn't really make a difference what you're wearing, because at a certain point you either can't do your job or it gets cold. Anyway, that's a whole nother story. ⁓ but ⁓ so so tell me your story. How'd you get here? How'd you get to to where you are in the business? ⁓ well, okay. ⁓ I was one of those people who didn't know anybody in the business, didn't have any connections, ⁓ was completely sort of random. ⁓ as I kind of I I don't know, it's ⁓ I I wanted to I did theater my whole life as a child. It's community theater. I love that group, you know, group creative process. As an actress? ⁓ as an actress, yeah. But you know, community theater. That's strong plug in community theater here. Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ I mean it was my my way that I found, you know, it was my When you grew up in New England, there's nowhere, you know, nobody talks about their emotions or is expressive or anything. It was my way of letting it out, you know? Okay. And and I loved it and and stuff. But I when I got to college I was like, Okay, reality is hitting. I have to find something else that I can do with my life because this is not probably gonna be it. So ⁓ so I went to I chose a school that that was in New York City because I thought if I can live in New York City coming from Massachusetts, I will be able to live anywhere in the world. And that that was my my goal. I love traveling and you know. And I ⁓ and so so I found a school that had a really terrible theater department. And and this I probably shouldn't say any what the school was at this point, but but and so I thought this will be my only protection to keep me from just automatically going back into theater. You mean because they had a bad theater department, you were like I'm I won't end up there. Exactly. Okay Yes. I was like, I have to protect myself from myself, you know. And so ⁓ but but ⁓ you know, so I veered a little bit more towards the film people 'cause it just was similar. and I was studying women's studies and then I ended up getting into anthropology and and ⁓ that kind of stuff. But I was it was really like I s I ended up doing theater off like low budget downtown theater ⁓ during school. And ⁓ and that got me into this whole this multimedia sort of theater production that was going on in the eighties. I'm old. I ⁓ you know, this was back in the eighties. And and so it was like companies that are were very very big here at that time, Mabu Mines and ⁓ the Worcester group, and they were sort of internationally respected avant garde theater companies and they were doing a lot with multimedia and video and this whole new technology stuff. And I used to do like street interviews for for I loved it. It was so much fun. We would we I I once went out on the street and ⁓ with with a cameraman and I was I was doing the interviews but ⁓ but it was all about what what was called daydreams of a violent revolution. And so we would ask people if you ha you know, if you could create a violent revolution and create a n a new world order here in New York right now, what would that look like? Well you know so it's just like really fun stuff. But I I I came from a very political family, you know, so in terms of protesting and nonviolence and just kind of being very politically active. So so theater and film and all of these things were were always very connected to politics for me. ⁓ and so so that kind of got me back into theater but also got me into the film people ⁓ at Columbia where I went to school. And so ⁓ that turned into I was working on a student film. You know, working, you know, for free, not really working, just, you know, hanging out. ⁓ helping I was helping the producer get craft service to be absolutely accurate. And ⁓ and ⁓ I ⁓ we finished the job and there were a lot of NYU students on the film and working on the film because Tech Columbia is a very much more of a writing program than a tech program. And so they had pulled a lot of people in and those people said, you know, Martin Scorsese's coming back from Morocco from doing Last Temptation of Christ. And he needs an assistant and we need someone who will help us with our careers later. And is there anyone here that we can recommend that would maybe get that job? And they all they all turned to me and said, you, you could go interview for this job. And ⁓ I I didn't actually ⁓ I'm gonna admit this, I didn't know who Martin Scorsese was. I just didn't leave his films. And I I thought, well, hey, everyone wants me to do this. ⁓ I need a job. I'm gonna go do this thing. And and so I went and interviewed and they were so thrilled that I was not an NYU student because they didn't want to have, you know, someone who was trying to trying to, you know, tie into that whole world. And so ⁓ so I ended up doing three films with him as his personal assistant just on a film. Wow and so what films? It was ⁓ the New York Stories, that little four million dollar short that they sh he shot for that. And And so it was immediately, you know, just transported into this incredibly large budget film world, you know, and and yet yet indie, you know. So it was kind of like, I mean, top people in New York working on it. ⁓ but but Scorp says he still, you know, hadn't gotten the kind of recognition that he really wanted from Hollywood or anything, you know. Yeah, yeah. Wait, what were the other two movies then? ⁓ Goodfellas and Age of Innocence. You were his assistant on Goodfellas. I did not realize that. That's incredible. Wow. It wasn't it was incredible. It was ⁓ like it was it was really appealing to all my anthropological, sociological, you know, studies of of people that were so different than anything I'd ever ever grown up around. And ⁓ you know And what were you just just because I I maybe I don't know, like as an assistant, what were you doing for him? I was that's that was the best part was that I was it was my film school because ⁓ I just had to be it was like a bodyguard, but I didn't have to be. protect him from anything except for people, you know. Social bodyguard. Exactly. Just no, no, you know, he's just so he could like follow me, you know, I would just lead him to wherever and stuff. And and but he was just incredibly kind and and loved to share his information. So for me it was like he was he was telling me everything about, you know, what was inspiring him to make during making that movie and what what films he'd watched all night, stayed up all night watching, you know, and what references things were. And he would You know, that was back in the VHS days. So so he would he had a whole VHS library that he had a person who was employed just to record off of television the movies as research that he liked because that's there was th there was none of what we have now. And so he had created a personal library. And so he would come in and give me VHS tapes to watch of films that, you know, you couldn't get anywhere. Maybe at Kim's Video, which used to be here in New York, you know, yeah. But ⁓ but I wouldn't have known what to get, you know. And he so so it was I was like the I guess, you know, for me it was it and there and I was sitting right next to the monitors the whole time watching the process and I and there's Michael Ballhouse and there is he you know, he is and and I'm just, you know, like a little fly in the wall. It was it was absolutely incredible. And did you recognize how extraordinary that was at the time? Absolutely. Absolutely. The act it felt like I had access and and You know, to not There are people who are killed for that opportunity. But Dave, I felt that way my entire career in the film. Yeah, but that's I I get it, but that's a little I mean, that's on a different level. Yeah. Yeah, it was very yeah. I mean, it was definitely a world it it's it's it's the glamour, the everything, you know, and also you know, all that stuff, it was very obvious to me. It was nothing I'd ever seen, been around. And it seemed ⁓ but but it's also interesting because I think the first couple of films I was on I I even despite that, despite knowing how special and privileged I felt being there, I also felt like I don't want to work in this business on on a very personal political level because I was so disgusted with the way that women were treated on film sets. And at that time there were no women on film sets at all, only in the hair makeup department. So wait, this would have been what eighty two, eighty three? No, it was eighty it was ⁓ Trying to think of when Goodfellas was. I can look it up. I think it was yeah, I'm terrible with dates. I think it was early eighties. Late 80s. ⁓ it was late 80s? Maybe it late. ⁓ Goodfellas might have like eighty-nine actually. Yeah, I think it was eighty nine or something like that. So even even that late, that you still there were still no women on set, maybe a script supervisor. ⁓ well, there were there was there was I mean Susan Starr is someone that I I eventually hooked up with. And And she so she was very much a presence on set. She was she was, you know, and there I knew there had been women before. ⁓ but but I just had not I mean, I grew up on a farm, I grew up in a rural situation, I I where where people were people, you know. There wasn't there wasn't this sort of role playing thing that happens in in these glamour industries, you know. And and I and it was it was just I found it really hard to take. And and so I would just sort of be be but but at the same time I I didn't did you know I I was still thrilled to be there. I just was like trying to imagine how am I going to fit in? Where am I going to fit in? You know? And that was the thing that everyone told me as a as a basically as a PA level at that point, my entry level as a PA, I I ⁓ you know had to had to think they said figure out what you want to do. Like just anything. It doesn't it doesn't have to be what you end up doing. But but their advice to me, and I always tell this to people is Is tell people what you're interested in. I mean, don't say I want to be the DP on the next project, you know, like but like I'm interested in costume design or I'm interested in props or I'm interested in camera, you know, because everyone in my experience will help you. If they if you're an entry-level person and you express interest, people are flattered. People are, you know, they want to help you, they want to to be able to give back, you know. And so I I found that to be true. And I at first I was like, well, I want to be involved with the visuals. I mean, he just the way Scorsese used it, just the way he was inspired was and and the work that he did with Michael Balhouse, I just felt I feel is is per is is incredible. Extraordinary. It's incredible. Goodfellas is like the perfect synergy of so many different things. It's incredible. In incredible. And and so I I was really drawn to that. ⁓ and and but I didn't know how to get into the technical camera stuff. ⁓ and so I my next job after doing those things was to work with the production designer, Christy Zia, who is a phenomenal production designer and incredible person and had a history in New York theater, downtown theater like like I did. So I felt very much like this is my people, you know? And so I she hired me to work as I don't even know if this is an official title, but I basically was ⁓ her visual researcher for photographs and and and the looks of Of things for the silence of the lambs, which she was working on at that time. ⁓ my gosh, that's this is unb I knew nothing about this. You've never told me posts of this. This is incredible. Wait, so so she was basically giving you like I need to go I mean give me an example. She was off in like Pittsburgh or wherever they were sh wherever I can't even remember where they were shooting. But ⁓ so she would say, I need images of like like meat like lockers or like like Minnesota like ⁓ winters or Like, you know, and I would I would they used to have like a lot of there used to be a lot of street vendors on the street in New York and it's so I would go both to the library, they at the New York Public Library had this incredible thing. I don't even know if they still have it since everything's been digitized, but this was before that. So you would go to the photo archives and you would go like any other kind of dual dewey decimal system or whatever, you would go in and you would say, I'm looking for Minnesota or whatever, you know, was and and you would pull out the file fold and there'd be folders in there and they would have paper images. Just that people had thrown in that folder. And then you would would you take pictures and send them to her, or how would you get the information to her? Yeah, I would take pictures of them because she couldn't take them out or or I or mimic, I don't know. I think that's what we did. She gave me a photocopy budget, you know, and I would like to they had a photocopier there at the, you know, but but where my best photo my best images came from the art forum magazines and art magazines that had full plate, you know, themes on the street. street vendors in New York would like sell these for a dollar or whatever, you know, and you would and I would I just would would pick up these things and they would they would the colors were incredible. There was this one thing with with ⁓ I remember s so specifically one of the images that she loved was was from a tanning house where they were tanning hides to make these colors of fabric that were being used, you know, ⁓ and and so You can sort of see where that's going with this sort of like you know, with that story. It's just visually just like beautiful ⁓ stuff, but also kind of creepy. You know, so yeah. So that I just that was like it was like a dream job, you know. I just was like, that sounds like so much fun, actually. It was super, super fun and I couldn't believe it was a job. But ⁓ Well you know, you know what's interesting to me is like I think of it now and I think if someone were to ask me to do that now I would it doesn't seem like that much fun because I'd just sit in front of my computer and type stuff up. But like the whole like I gotta go to the library and there was I was yeah, it was books and things and you know, and it was I would just, you know, take get these magazines, rip their photos out and send them to her and th there was and also it was all like we weren't I wasn't emailing stuff to her. I was, you know, putting it in a little envelope and mailing it off, you know, and and that kind of stuff. That's totally cool. And I and so I ma I tried to imagine like, is this where I wanna do? Is this what I wanna do? And I thought, you know I've seen what it's like, you know, when they decide suddenly they have to change, ⁓ we're not gonna shoot that tomorrow because the weather changed or whatever happened, and now we have to go shoot that ballroom scene or whatever, you know, or the something. And and you it's not ready. And you have to get it ready and you have to have and you have to have pull stuff out of thin air, you know, and just make it happen. And I just thought, that is so stressful. Like, I don't as much as I am enjoying this, I don't want to have to ever be responsible for that. Yeah. You know, creating that. on that level at the with that, you know, and I mean I'm sure yeah, anyway, so I so I thought I would rather work with tools that are there, you know, that I can that I can use and come to work every day and just like have my tools and have my stuff that are visual, you know, create visual things, but I don't have to deal with all of that, you know. And ⁓ it's one of the things that I always like with Steticam. You I always thought whenever it was tempted, you know, I had people who really pushed me early on to try to get into Steticam. ⁓ really? And ⁓ and I was like, ⁓ all that stuff. All that stuff. You know. You know, like I you know, I just I just couldn't wrap my head around it, you know. Yep, no, yeah. But so it's so anyway, it's funny how like when you're starting out, these the the things that influence you or don't. But it but I I have to say everybody always You know, I felt so privileged because of my the Scorsese connection, which was just random. But because of that, you know, people would give me an opportunity that working with and then I hooked into the Michael Balhouse crew because they wanted to help me. You know, and you and you you hooked into the Michael Bauhaus crew, meaning to start working in the camera department with them? Yeah, back back then then and this is something that's different now. But back then in New York, I mean it was local six forty four, so it was a a different structure. They had a trainee program. ⁓ which was very interesting because it was you could it was not a trainee, it was a trainee program for union members. So had to be in the union to be in the a trainee. But the re and the reason that it was structured like that is because back then New York was a film town, not a not a T V town the way it is now, you know, and so there were like four crews that all the movies, you know. four or five, you know, there were very few. And and they did all of the movies. And they ⁓ and so in order to create an opportunity for people to learn how to work with those crews and learn how to work on that level, they created and also because we didn't have loaders. The second loaded. We didn't have the loader position. So even on features, your second was loading. So it was it was and so they they created a position w of someone who could load 'cause they were in the union and everything. ⁓ but that was that the producers would pay and and it was a lesser rate, but you got your hours. ⁓ or days. I think it was days for six six forty four. I can't remember now. It was something different. But ⁓ but it meant that you could and you and you could do three trainee ships, but you couldn't do any with the same crew. So it meant that you got to s meet a a ton of people a ton of people and it meant that if anyone moved up or anyone, you know, wasn't there anymore for whatever reason, you had an opportunity because you now knew these people and and either the traineeship went well, you know, or it didn't. And if it didn't went well go well, you would not be working in the industry. And you said three shifts. A shift was a movie, a movie project. Three different yeah three opportunities to be a trainee. So my training jobs were let's see, it was Cowboy Way, ⁓ and and the still photographer on that. ⁓ was Barry Wetcher and he Barry Wetcher, yeah. He was like a a godfather to me, you know? He he always says, you know, I owe him. So I do. I owe him my on the on podcast. You know, it's like people look out for you and and and I I'm kinda trying to remember what two jobs were. ⁓ the other two jobs, yeah. But so so you got in with Bauhaus and so so basically when you were a trainee to Were they basically making you the loader essentially and going, well, we're gonna teach you how to load and you'll load, or did you cover the second AC when the second AC went to load? ⁓ no, you would load. You would load. You would load. Yeah, it was it was a great benefit for those crews because ⁓ but but you were also like you were the trainee and they treated it like that. So you were being taught. ⁓ I I worked at ⁓ a number of jobs with Bobby Mancuso and he He was extraordinary teacher, you know. One of the best, one of the best first ACs out there. You know, and Eric Swannick. ⁓ I kind of traded off between the two of them and and Eric was, you know, I learned how to use short ends with Eric in a way that was so ⁓ like I actually f I was so proud of this. I think ⁓ that I finished a job and we had no short ends. So so for anybody who doesn't know because I mean one of the people, right? ⁓ short ends were when you you you'd have a four hundred or usually a four hundred or a thousand foot. Mag ⁓ load of film. And if the scene was, you know, if you had a 400 ⁓ foot magnet film and the scene was 300 feet, you'd have to, you'd have to ⁓ change it out every time. And you'd be left these with these 100 or 80 foot short ends. And it was always that challenge to go, how do we fit the math? Like, you know, so we don't have anything left over, don't have a truck full of short ends. But it occurs to me like most of the people working today aren't gonna go, what's a short end? short end. Well and it was so elaborate. It's true. I just I I didn't even think about that. Yeah, all those jobs were film. And that was that was, you know, for the it it wasn't until I started working with Sydney Lumet that that I started working in digital. And ⁓ and he was really, you know, a pioneer in that in that world in New York. Do you remember do you remember how long how long had you been in the camera part of the film industry, if you want to call it that and for being a training de ⁓ you know, to ⁓ moving on up. until you actually started pulling focus. How many years? I okay. that's a good question. I I seconded for a long time. I loved seconding. I w it was you know, I loved the organization. What what what did you love about it? What was it what was it was film. So with film, you know and and and I I loved being in charge of the gear, basically 'cause in I know it's it's structured differently ⁓ in the East Coast and West Coast often, but the second does the time cards. The second does all the f load ordering of of equipment, which I think is probably more the first assistant on the West Coast. I don't know. But it's just yeah you know and it depends job to job, I think. Yeah. And ⁓ and you're you're you're doing all the loading, so you're doing all the inventory, which, you know, I know we briefly mentioned short ends and stuff, but it's it was different batches of film. You couldn't you you know, you had to keep track of so much in different stocks and you know, and if there was a bad batch you You know, you had to know which short ends came from that batch and which it just was like elaborate, you know. But also, ⁓ you know, like working with Eric Swannick, he he always returned gear back to the rental houses in better condition than it was sent on. That does not surprise me. And so I learned so much. And it was you know, every time we got new gear, every time we got a new, you know, toy, you know, it was like a you know, a snorkel or something, you know, you or Different kinds of spray deflectors or whatever. It was always like, how do we make these work? It was it was like, you know, how do we make those rods work with these rods and those things work with this? And there's do you need a reversing gear? Or do you need, you know, and it just was like this it never ended. And I and sort of something I came to learn more as a first than a second was that, you know, something is always every single job, something is gonna happen. I was gonna say something is gonna go wrong, but it's something is going to happen that has never happened to you before. And it it's true, isn't it? It really is true. And it may it may be small. It might not be massive, but occasionally it is. But it but it's true. It's it's also like the way that I look at it is, you know, as a study cam operator, I have I have my yellow toolbox and I don't even know what is in my yellow toolbox because over the years and I I'm sure as an assistant you had something like this, over the years I've like thrown those like screws and those things in there because you put it all in there. And I don't even know what and I never need anything out of it. But if I lost that, I would lose my mind because I know someday there's something in the bottom of it that I'm gonna need that's gonna save me and I can't get rid of it. I still have that bo toolbox. I can't I I I just I mean, yeah, I still have it. Because you know you know it you know it's out there. It's like it's that that that that big problem is out there and it's coming to get you and you need all these things to to to deal with it. But it's great. But also some of that's changed in that the the standardization of like film equipment. And and and and it's also like I mean I just remember like we you'd have to go and search out some of the tools in not really non standard places to try to find stuff because there wasn't a film there weren't wasn't film tools. There wasn't, you know, all these vendors who who ooh blah blah blah. service the film industry before and you just No, you'd like see something and be like, ⁓ I got it down on Canal Street. Like that valve that you can use to use an air tank with a spray deflector, you know, or whatever. You know, like it's just like that's you gotta know what that's called and where you can get it. And well and that's probably also what like especially as a second even and as a first, but that's what ends up making you valuable, right? It's because they're like, I you know I I ⁓ Heather'll have a Heather's ha we'll have an idea and then you go, ⁓ yeah, I've done this once before on with Eric Swannick and fix it this way or whatever. And then you're then you're invaluable because you bring all that you just keep collecting these tidbits of of stuff but also of information, you know. And and yeah. I think that well I think the thing that's changed a little bit, which I mean is good, obviously, but in a weird way, nostalgically maybe it bothers me a little bit, is now Yeah, you'd you'd ask around, but then you'd get on your phone and you start texting people and like, have you ever done this? Or you'd put it on a forum or something, you know, which is good because you get the the hive mind. But ⁓ there was something about like we're out on the island and we have to fix it ourselves. Right. Right. Well and you you yeah, ⁓ all of those little bits of information were treasured because because they became, you know, you were you were having to learn on the job and you were and you know, and and they became what you taught other people to do. And ⁓ like like Eric used to say to me, you know, if I will always listen to you if you think you have a better idea of how I should do this. But when you were seconding to or even load you know, whatever, yeah, when I was but but I do these things for a reason. I do it this way because I've learned from from things going wrong. You know, this is the it's not I'm not just deciding to do this this way. It's it's it's because if I don't do it this way, I know these other things will happen that that are not good. Yeah, yeah. I that's by the way, the first of all, that's classically Eric Swannick who who ⁓ we've been talking about it, but he's an incredible first assistant, ⁓ and just and an and a great person on top of it. I mean but but it but that's I think that to me, that's actually what makes people great in this business who who people who have built it, you know, people who ha who are good at what they do obviously and have built up career and and have learned from it. But it's like, look, I know how to do this and that's why I'm doing it. But I'm also always open to the idea that maybe someone knows better than I do. But until until that's that's shown to me and I re and I and I can see it, I'm sticking with what works because you know I know what I'm doing. Well and that's maybe there's something I mean there's something to that too, right? There's something to that knowledge where you you don't want you you actually value the knowledge that you've acquired. You know, absolutely yourself because it's it's and and if if someone doesn't take the advice that you have, it's kinda like I really don't want to have to learn this again. You know? But but everyone has to has to, you know, experience it themselves. Everybody has their process and there and we've run into those people who think that they know how to do it better. And it's like I've been doing this for thirty years. There's a reason that I don't do X, but if you need to do X and then fail, then then you should go ahead and do it. I mean sometimes that's unfortunate. But ⁓ ⁓ so do you rem do you remember making the jump to first AC? I absolutely remember making the jump to first A C because I had here's the thing is that I back then, you know, it was there was like January, February pretty slow because it was movies only and there weren't a lot of movies that would come to New York in that time of the year. And so we would all go off and do these like little independent projects that were n didn't pay anything, you know? And so I cut my teeth doing sort of ⁓ you know, like learning how to pull focus. ⁓ if Susan star was shooting a small project, you know, then I would go and pull focus for her. Or or Zach Weinstein was another guy or like there were a lot of people who were in the who had worked in both worlds, you know, who had the indie sort of connection and could do those and were shooting their own projects, you know, their own love projects or whatever they that's called. And and ⁓ and so it was a great, great place to start to do that. But also, and I think about this sometimes these days with all the strikes and everything, you know, that I joined the union in nineteen ninety-two. That was the first year ⁓ after the three year blackout of New York. So where production came back. So what was the three what do you mean the three year blackout? The producers didn't shoot in New York for three years because you mean they they they boycotted it? Yeah, they boycotted it because because the union and this is you know, I mean up for personal interpretation or political interpretation or however you but basically the union's contracts were so strong, with all the conditions that were, you know, were quality of life conditions and also ⁓ the the cost of living in New York is very high, right? And always has been. So so it was it was like premiums and various things that that were in our contracts in their six forty four that were were not in other contracts in other parts of the country. And so ⁓ the producers were like, We've had enough of this. We're not we're gonna teach you guys a lesson. We're not gonna shoot there anymore because we we're we're done, you know, with that. We you have to give that stuff up. I actually was not aware that this was something that I knew that there was a slowdown, but I didn't know what it was an organized slowdown, if you want to call it. Yeah but ⁓ Yeah, so so completely oblivious to that fact, you know, my timing just happened to be ⁓ that I joined the union on ninety two and the first job I did was as a focus puller on a union feature. ⁓ because they were a low budget feature, but it back then we didn't have ⁓ we didn't have the tiers, you know, that was that was later developed. But we had something called East Coast Council, which was a great contract. ⁓ but it and it's still around, but it it it allows people who want to use union people to make films when they have less money. And ⁓ and so nobody wanted to do this low budget film. So I got to To first a j a job. Like I mean it was just kind of I and I luckily I had been doing these little jobs, so I felt like I I mean now I look back at that job and ⁓ you know, I ⁓ hopefully nobody can see. I mean it's ⁓ I I I I was not at the level that I should have been. I can say that now, you know, looking back. I mean I just ⁓ I it was it was ⁓ it was I'll tell you because it's kind of ⁓ it was kind of a crazy job where basically the whole job was about a a limousine driver who drives it and only drove nights. And he had these clients who were wealthy and they would just pay him to to do these special routes and whatever. And and so all of our shooting was at night and all of it was in a limousine. And it was in the winter and it was one of the years we had one of the worst snowstorms we've ever had. And so there was actually a d and and because the company didn't want to pay for insurance, we had to carry all of the camera gear up like five flights of stairs to the production office every night and back down in the morning again. And my my my second was this amazing guy, Scott Belsaric from Pittsburgh. I'll never forget him. He was just such a trooper. He w wanted to be in the film business so bad. And I think that drove it out of him. He he ended up being in the film business but he went into to like worked at Skywalker Post or something. I I I you know he was he he made a a sidestep move to to do some less manual type of work, you know. But do you do you remember that as being an overw I mean it sounds like the the the movie was overwhelming, but do you remember that like suddenly having to be the head of the department and pulling focus was was that mentally a big It was great. I think it was just really what was hard about that job was the hours and the nights and the and the weather conditions and everything. But I you know, I I kind of love being in charge. ⁓ it's I have to watch myself actually because I I, you know, I like it a little too much, I think. So ⁓ you know, I'm but but ⁓ but it's fun. It's really fun, you know. Good. Yeah. And then and then so and how long did you pull focus for? Well that that was the thing. I I did my traineeships after that job. ⁓ that ⁓ sorry, that was even ⁓ you said it was when you first got in So it wasn't linear you know and I and I think that was just because it's about, you know, I I realized that, you know, everyone said to me, I had a lot of friends who were in the indie world and and ⁓ because of of you know, training myself that way and and so they were all like, If you get if you can join the union, if you can get in the union Yeah, we can't, so do it. You know? Yeah. And take those jobs because those people That's gonna you you're gonna have a livelihood. You know, we're struggling here. You know, and I had kind of wanted to start out in documentary. I didn't even I hadn't I with my anthropology sort of background, I had been in, you know, Margaret Mead. I like all into the like I'm gonna be doing documentary filmmakes. And ⁓ and then it this happened and I just fell into this and like I d who you know, how do how do you walk away from that? You know, no, it's what happens. And also like you meet people and you're like, I like working with you, I don't want to work with you again. And then, you know, it's it's that's life gets in the way, isn't that that old? So I I unconsciously chose to go back and go back down to that and do my time and come up as a second and then but but when I was ⁓ so I had been working with with Michael Balhouse's crew and Florian Balz House's crew. and and and Florian also hired me early on as a first. You know, he was the one he was really my the person who who helped me bridge that that transition ⁓ from Florian was an operator at that time? His first Well, I don't know if it's I again I think he had done stuff but he we he took me to Germany to do a job with him where he was operating he was operating and it was and and he had been firsting before that I guess. And so he was doing that as an operator. ⁓ and I think he was operating N D Ping, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's what they were doing there. And ⁓ and I I he bumped me up to first the job for him. And that was when you made the transition, basically. ⁓ I had he well I made the he what happened was I was working on this I told this story at the you know awards the SOC awards, but basically I I had been working as a s as a second on and it was on ⁓ Robert Redford film, it was ⁓ The Legend of Bagger Vance. And ⁓ I'd been working with them as a second for a while, Key Second, you know, and with Susan, Susan was the first, and they had to splinter off a to do a shot of Of the actor running straight at the camera in a in a flashback war sequence, you know, on a three hundred millimeter lens, whatever. And Florian was like, ⁓ Heather and I will do this, you guys go on. I don't know how it was decided. But so we did one take. I had nobody with me, I had no seconds or anything. We just did that. But you know, and he I just remember this of his he took his eye away from the eyepiece and he goes, All right, we got that. You know, and I was like and he turned to me and he goes. I'm never hiring you as a second again. ⁓ that's great. What a great story. That's what I was you know, I was terrified. Terrified of of not having a job, you know, not having it because I there was, you know, plenty of people framed high. Yeah. By the way, ⁓ you mentioned it and I didn't when I introduced you, and I'm sorry, I can't believe I skissed on this. You got the lifetime ⁓ achievement. ⁓ was it called the lifetime achievement? It was, yeah, I know for ⁓ your work as an assistant and actually I sat at your table you invited me and I came and ⁓ and and it was ⁓ it was a great evening. So so I I should have mentioned that earlier and I apologize. I've kind of forgot about that. What was that what was that five that was n that was the year the year of COVID. That was two thousand I was gonna say COVID screws on my time outline. So that was probably twenty nineteen or twenty twenty. Twenty twenty. Twenty twenty. Yeah. Yeah. No it couldn't have been twenty nineteen because twenty twenty was COVID. Yeah. Anyway, whatever. But again, an amazing achievement that they they chose you to to honor you for the work you you've done. It was surreal. It was truly incredible. That was that was that was that a cool experience? Amazing. Amazing experience. I mean, just be I think the the thing that was the most amazing for me beyond besides the you know, just getting to dress up and and and play, you know, that role. ⁓ was was that it actually made me look back at what I'd done, which I never did before. I never looked back. I was looking forward. And so it you know, at first I was like, what what are they they're crazy. Like why are they giving it to me, you know? And I just I just didn't I thought, well it's a ⁓ it's it's a me too, it's a whatever, you know. And then I looked back and I started remembering all the incredible people that I'd gotten to work with and just just flooded with all these experiences and stories and things And and it was overwhelming. You know, it's pretty cool. Yeah. Because you don't you you you're right, you don't. You just sort of go to the next job and you remember it, of course, but you don't sit back and recollect on it really. I mean, I've had a couple of things here where I've introduced people and I list off some of their credits and people are like, Wow, that guy sounds really interesting or that that woman sounds interesting, you know. Because we don't I think we all we all just sort of move forward to the next well the next order. ⁓ that New York Stories section that With Scorsese. That was shot by Nestor Almendros. You know? ⁓ And and so ⁓ I just was How old how old was he was pretty old at the time. I don't remember how old, but it's probably in his seventies, you know. I was gonna say one of must have been one of his last films. Perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, ⁓ that's that's pretty cool. Just you know, and then of course when Sydney passed away, it was just kind of like these people, they're just you know The experience. And they're such a massive part of the part of the industry, but it's so amazing that you get to work. What was working with Sydney Sydney Lamella like? It was really he was he was so fun. You know, and he's so he he's the first person that really made me aware of editing because he he shoots like it's live multicam TV. And so what is it? So he so he I mean that job the first job we did with him. Whereas ⁓ on ped ped cameras and he shot it like we the whole thing everything was a stage. He except for occasionally, you know, we would go out, but mostly it was all stage work and and it was all ⁓ we had fiber optic cable pre rigged to all the stages so that you just hooked in when you got there, you know, into the different areas and you just roll around or whatever. But but ⁓ yeah, it was he he never shot a full ⁓ master. 'Cause he knew he would cut into it. He just knew he knew exactly what he needed. He he knew exactly what lens he wanted. You know? He knew and not only did he know what lens he wanted, he he would do the math for the digital, you know, translation for the video lenses. And he would because we were using film lenses but did for digital cameras. So he would say, Well, ⁓ I need a like a you know I need a a twenty three millimeter or a seventeen millimeter or something, and you're Well, we don't have a and he's like Well, no, just put the camera here on your 18 or whatever, you know. Like he said the the twenty five will be this. Exactly. He knew exactly what size he was size wanted. He knew exactly, you know, and I remember one time he he we he was so it was fascinating to watch the process because he would say, you know, like the actors would do one take and he'd be like, Great, moving on and they'd be like, Whoa, wait wait a minute, wait a minute, you know, I I think I'd like to know and he's like ⁓ honey, I got it. You know, I got it. That's fine. I got what I needed. You're you're great. You know. And then so they learned to perform in the first take. You know, because they knew they didn't have the luxury. If they didn't do it, they they wouldn't may not get another take. I i if they really begged they would or whatever. And then I and I remember one time we had ⁓ an actress who came in who's a you know, a well-known actress, and she came in at the end of a a ⁓ one of the TV segments and sh and he she kept asking for another take and and he turned to me and he goes, You know, these actors, they they owe they never want the job to end. They never want it to end. He's like, Them the first day we start shooting, I wanna be in the editor room. I'm already over the film. Like I don't wanna you know and it was it was true. I mean he enjoyed the process, but he really he didn't c crave the process or love the process. He just used it to get the the edit to make it use means to the end to get to the editing. Yeah, we crossed that's ⁓ That's wow. That's amazing. Really short days, also, you know, eight hour days or less. Well, I mean, if you're not doing that many takes and he knows everything ahead of time, right? That's crazy. That takes most of the time out of there. That's that's really incredible. So how long did you pull focus for before you jumped up to operating? Probably twenty five years. Twenty five I don't know exactly, but it was in the twenties, you know. ⁓ we'll we'll give you a year or two there. So I think it's safe to say you were an established focus puller at that point. People knew you as a focus puller. ⁓ what was jumping up to operating like for you? Well, it was with Florian again. You know, he ⁓ he was doing a a a large romantic comedy. And so, you know, he asked me if I was interested in doing the job. And ⁓ and I said, you know, I would I would like to you know, would you consider me for operating? And ⁓ And he's like, Well, th let me think about it. And ⁓ he came back and he said, Well, it's a romantic comedy, you know, I think it's a good job to transition on, you know, it's like the it was an A camera steady cam and they were gonna be doing you it was the B cam was definitely getting the you know, the little bits that were gonna go in between and and ⁓ and he said, But I will fire you. I love it. I love it. I'm so happy to hear that. That's the best. Because it's ha it's how it has to be, right? He's like, You have to do the job. I'll hire you, but you have to be able to do it, you know? Yeah. And and he said and he was also concerned because he's like, you know, he had he had been working less and less in New York and even though we dun done jobs all over the place, you know, and traveled and everything. ⁓ he was hiring more locally wherever he went these days. And so ⁓ and and working more in Europe and stuff. And so he said I I just want to make sure this is what you want to do because I may not be working in New York soon and and I can't help you. You know. So when you do the one, you know, he was he was concerned and about that, you know. But he said maybe, you know, maybe it'll help the fact that people are trying to be more diverse and that that hopefully that will help you. Yeah. This was one? That was in that was twenty nineteen. So just before just before COVID. ⁓ yeah, no, ⁓ yeah, it's been great, right? COVID, strikes. Yeah. It's been awesome. In fact that's that led to the the next job that we sort of talked about a little bit before, which is the Scenes from a Marriage, which was the job I did after that. And that was a full on COVID job, early in COVID. ⁓ full protection, like nobody on set except for the operators. all headset, you know, it was some plastic I learned a a lot of I learned an enormous amount of that job because I really hadn't had the experience as an operator. ⁓ especially on a small set like that, where it was so intense. I mean, what an intense, intense ⁓ acting subject subject subject matter. Yeah. And just ⁓ with those actors who were were incredible. And and here we were in this in this very intimate space with them and it was and and ⁓ and so we had headsets which which was You know, a blessing and a curse, more a curse to me than a blessing, because it's like it's it really trains you not to follow your instincts and not to do anything because you get so used to having someone telling you stuff all the time. And and it was very that I learned that was a bad habit I learned on that job that I had to unlearn. You know? I I just wanna for anybody who listens to the podcast, I just wanna point out that I did not tell Heather to say that. I have said this So many times it's a huge pet peeve of mine. Like headsets have their place. They have remote heads. ⁓ the DP is half a mile away. And you know, I mean they have their place understandably, but especially for up-and-coming operators, when DPs put headsets on them, you said it perfectly. They stop following their instincts. Because w when you started operating without headsets, and when I started operating without headsets, it was here's what we want. Go sit behind your camera and get it. And you had to make a choice. And You hope to God that you made the right choice. But I think that's And this it's also about trust. I mean, I think there's you build a certain amount of communication and trust. And and he he he was, you know, the the DP on that job was was really went way out on a limb kind of hiring newer people. Like we had a newer study camp guy who was very good. Very good. And and and then he was still the that DP likes to operate and at that time. And now I I'm pretty sure he's mostly directing now. But he You know, he he won' was required to have an operator. And so it was a situation where I was hired. I nobody wanted to take a standby job. And I was like, Are you kidding me? To be ⁓ like learning from this guy whose work I love and to just be able to And w what was the name of that DP by the way? That was Andre Perec. And ⁓ he you know, he was already starting to go towards directing at that time. He'd been sort of ⁓ juggling both jobs and stuff. But he he I don't I don't know w he he needed he was required by the union to hire a standby operator. And so I came in as a standby operator thrilled. Thrilled to just be because 'cause I knew it would be what I made it. You know, what I took away from that job. I wasn't gonna be one of those standby operators that was gonna sit on the truck and wait to be or you know, whatever. I was like and and you know, but also it was such an intense set, I knew that I might not be able to be on set or be around. but I kind of, you know, just any time I could be there, ⁓ first day I was like, you know, he's running back and forth to talk to the director. ⁓ it was again the COVID thing meant that everyone had to be separate and far apart. So it was really you know, and I would be like, Can I here, let me sit at the camera and I'll just you know, you can communicate to me or if you want to do the shot, you you know. So it it it ended up he allowed me to do a lot more ⁓ than than than I had thought was gonna be. But it was a very Odd position because ⁓ everyone looked to me as the A camera operator since that's what I was on the call sheet. You know? And and yet I I wasn't acting as an A camera operator. And and so I learned a lot about what A camera operators do, but I also was not running, you know, this I was not in charge of things in the way that I that normally would be, you know. And so it was that was I learned a lot on that job. yeah. I I I can imagine, but most of your work as an operator has been as a B camera operator. Yeah, everything else is pretty much the the ⁓ no well the only job that I did do ⁓ last year or no let's see the because of the strikes. It was year before. I'm I'm I'm crunching time. I know. it gets crazy. that was a horror film with ⁓ my old buddy Tos Mikos, who ⁓ Toss Mikos, ⁓ cool who I adore. And he ⁓ was doing this job with Pete Davidson and a director who had d he had worked with a lot, ⁓ ⁓ who is who does these really, really sort of political horror films. and ⁓ and so he was he was excited to do it. And so he he hired me as the A camera operator on that job. And ⁓ Becca Venezia was the B camera operator and she was excellent and she she got to go out and do all kinds of ⁓ fun artsy stuff in the snow and and whatever. But but it that was a true A camera operating position. Yeah. So going going back to when you jumped from from twenty five years of assisting, where I gotta assume by that point you can do it in your sleep and yeah, there's still challenges, but like, you know, you you you know what you're doing, you know what your job is, whatever, to jumping to into operating. What's what's the mental game that happens there and how do you deal with it? Was it what was it were you nervous? Was it frightening? Were you sort of wondering whether you could do it, or have you seen enough that you sort of figured I can pull this off? I I have to say that. First of all, as a first assistant, even having done it that long, or even as a second assistant, ⁓ and this is just who I am and my personality, but I never felt like I knew what I was doing. I mean, and I that doesn't that didn't come out right, but but I always felt like I had to prove myself every single time. You know? It never felt like I definitely felt like I knew I knew how I wanted things set up, I knew what I was how I w I knew how to think, you know, I knew how to approach the job. Do you think that some of that has to do with the fact that you you're a woman in in in a industry you came into that was male dominant and so you feel that you have to over you have to overprove yourself. Probably I think but I think that's that's individual. You know, I think everyone reacts to that in a different way. ⁓ for me, I I mean I was incredibly fortunate in that everyone who hired me wanted me there. You know? And and when people didn't you know, I I definitely I had one experience where I came in, Bobby Makusa brought me in on a job that he was doing to be a a loader. And ⁓ I walked on the camera truck and the guys on that camera truck turned to me and said, What what are you doing here? And I was like, I'm the loader, you know, and they were like, Well, can you hang out off the truck? 'Cause like this is like our locker room. We really don't, you know, want to have you on the truck. It's just you know, it's not fun for us. And But that that only happened to me once and those are the and and those are the people I just didn't end up gravitating towards after that 'cause, you know, it's like it it but I but I was incredibly fortunate that there were people out there, you know, like Florian or like Declan or you know, like all these these people who just have been incredibly ⁓ willing and and you know and appreciative of having women on their sets. Yeah. So but but going going back to the operating question that I was asking about what what's well what what what was there a mental game that you had? Like, you know, I mean is it is it Yeah, there yeah, absolutely. Is it so new that like, ⁓ my god, can I even do this? Or do you go, I think I know what I'm supposed to be doing 'cause I've been near it all this time. And I guess the reason I I brought all that up is just because ⁓ I do know all this stuff. You know, I have been around this stuff and I don't acknowledge it, but I do know it and I and so my mental game that I have to play with myself is is to say you can do hard things. You know, you you you just just just use them stuff you know. You just stop worrying about it and just do it. You know, because you you you actually know how to do this but also ⁓ one of the things that I'm learning is and is that ⁓ you know people work so much better with you when you actually look to them to help you and you collaborate with people. So that idea that you have to know everything or you have to come in and solve everything and tell everyone what to do and how to do it doesn't doesn't create friends and colleagues working that like to work with you, you know? And so so that it's almost like I've had to say talk myself off the ledge going, not only do you not need to do that, you shouldn't do that. Behave Well, i I was just gonna say i it it it it's not only that they wanna work with you, but it it's it's a better product and the product's the wrong word, but it is a better outcome in the end when you have more more voices too. Well, and it's so much more fun. But it's it's so much more fun. There's no question. I I I'll tell you y just I'm working on the show and this PA ⁓ came up to me yesterday and it was very funny. He was very sweet, he's a young kid, and he Hey Can I can I pick your brain at some point? Is there some point I could talk to you just about this business and whatever? And I said, Yeah. And he goes, you know, just let me know. And I was Well, we're talking right now. You can just so I said, What do you want to know? And he goes, Well, I, you know, I I'm not a director, but I do direct things. And I said, Okay, then you're a director. So whatever, you know. And I I he said, you know, ⁓ what do you think? What's advice on how to how to, you know, what should a director have in this and that? We got into this conversation and I said to him, Look, the best directors that I know. And and this goes for camera operators and DPs and everybody who come in with an idea. They know exactly what they want to do, or or they they can figure out very quickly exactly what they want to do, and yet they're willing to completely throw it out the window if something better is presented. And he said something to me that really surprised didn't surprise me, but I had never thought about it. And I told him, I said, I'm stealing this. He said, ⁓ it's sort of like a barber. And I said, What do you mean? And he goes, Well, I go into the barber shop and I know exactly how I want my hair cut, but he is looking at something that I've never seen and he has skills that I don't have so he can shape it into something exactly what I want, but even better. And I went, that's an amazing analogy, but it it is the same kind of thing. Yeah. And it's also it's also like that, you know, like I remember I met I sort of one of the things that I did before I took the plunge or after that first job with Florida, you know, when I was now gonna have to go out and work with other people, ⁓ was I met with a lot of people for coffee, you know, operators, DPs, and I just said, you know, Just just to say you know, what advice do you have and stuff and and they said and and now and you know and then it's funny how that works how you you you then you start doing the jobs and those it that advice comes back to you and it actually made you you think you know what they're saying and then you go, ⁓ that's what they meant. You know So do do you think I remember Pete Agliato was like just no matter what people tell you about how you get the shot, like what they want, just know that you Your job is to make it a good shot. So d however you have to do that, you know, you always try to make it better. Just always constantly try to make it better. And I and I run into that all the time where like and I'll catch myself because someone will say, ⁓ like, ⁓ well, ⁓ make sure, you know, you don't Do this or or or you s you should use this head or you should do this thing or you should you know, they they give you this little tip, you know, and you're like, ⁓ okay, all right, well let me get this, you know, thing. And then you it's not working and you're like, Wha ⁓ you know, and then they're like, Why are you doing that? you know? And you're like, ⁓ right, right. ⁓ 'cause that isn't working. So why am I doing that? You know? So it's kind of like I have to keep reminding myself, we te people will tell you things, take it with a grain of salt, like, but if it's if it doesn't make it a better shot, do it do what makes it a better shot. See what makes it a better shot. It's exactly right. ⁓ I was teaching well co co teaching ⁓ with a lot of people, a study cam course ⁓ months ago now. ⁓ and we had a question and answer period. And one of them said, ⁓ can you think of a shot that you just did and you put the rig down and you went, I nailed that. And I l went and I I didn't even think about it. I said, No, it's never happened. It buzz Moyer's in the back of the thing and he goes, God, that would be fantastic, wouldn't it? Like all of us were like, Yeah, no. I mean All you do when you put the rig down is you go, God, I could have come around that turn. But and they may go, We got it in one, we're moving on, we love it. And you may not argue with them, but you're like, ⁓ if I did it better, if I did it one more time, there's all you there's always something. But that's the kind of focus, right? That's that's what that's because your brain is so active while you're doing it that you're you're assessing every single little thing that you're doing, going, ⁓ yeah, ⁓ you I could ⁓ I could this next time I could do this, or you know, trying to how can I make this better? You know, it's just like Yeah. But at the same time but at the same point, ⁓ You you have to know how to police that, right? Because you bec you can become your own worst enemy because yeah, everybody wants every shot to be perfect, but the director also has a schedule and has to worry about their actors and and and other things and and your pro your needs are not the priority, but you you do the best that you can, you know. And ⁓ and so and ⁓ you know, there is a thing that I think newer operators in general struggle with, I've found, which is being What's the word I'm looking for? Which is which is making statements. I need another one. Uh-huh. I I we had a problem. But as opposed as opposed to well, the beginning was kind of good and then in the middle there was this little thing. You know, and do you do do you find that that you you struggle with that as a as a I mean, relatively in the larger scheme of things, newer operator, or did the did What I'm sure happened is an assistant translate over because an assistant you probably want I just I need another one. And does that translate over or does it is it a whole new process of like learning that confidence? That is a really good question. And I I ⁓ I was warned about that a lot. So everybody does you know, y that no that no how important it is, you know, Dave Dunlap used to always say, you know, you you you when you you have you can't you can't be tentative. when you go take your eye away from the eyepiece or from the monitor or whatever it is now. You know, and you c you can't be like, Well, you know, I ⁓ you have to be like, that was great. Or I could make it better if I could if you if you want me to do this, you know? But you you choose those words very carefully. So I I've I've tried very hard to make sure that I'm actually doing that. You know, I you know, it's it's it there was something Well, I think I think when you start operating, you're second guessing yourself all the time, no matter what, just because it's so over there's so much that's new, right? And overwhelming. And so much is being asked of you to like really commit to stuff, right? I mean commit to But most of the bread and butter in New York is is television. ⁓ And And so I am learn I'm having to learn that ⁓ how much more communication I have with the director. And that's the ⁓ the what's so different about operating. Compared to being an assistant, you're saying because I mean and and because it's T V. Like in in a in a feature situation, if I have a focus question or a question about what the shot they want or what you know, it's it's always the D P that is i has that the you know, the the the director's working with the actors, but you know, the visual sort of thing was always in the D P world, whereas that that has completely shifted. And so now it's like often, especially like the show I'm on now, the the director that we just worked with is the is the creator of the show. And he is incredibly prepared, of course, and knows exactly what he wants. And he's open for other You know, he's he's an incredible creator, collaborator and everything. You know, he's always open to new things, but he or different ideas or or better ideas or different things, but he is very specific about what he wants and he will tell you that. And I it so it's for me shifting and talking to the director and collaborating with the director and letting the DP, you know, and and be keeping the D P in the loop because of lighting and everything else. So of course, you know, it's like, yeah, I w I can get this shot. But let me just check with the DP. Let me just check and make sure that they're prepared for that, you know? Or, you know, whatever. And just that balance. That that's been ⁓ a really fun new again, you know, privilege to be able to do that kind of communication directly. Do you do you miss foc do you miss pulling? I did in the beginning a lot. ⁓ but I was an old school focus puller and so it has changed so much and the technology has changed so much that I w and and also I I what I missed was that collaboration with the operator. And when it started being less of that anyway, I just kind of wasn't enjoying it as much, you know, which is part of my motivation to switch over. And then of course as an operator, I'm like, Well, I miss having the focus pillar right there. I know, right? We never had that. But that look, that's we we worked on happiest together and some of my favorite moments were sitting with you right next to the camera and us just, you know, bickering back and forth about stuff. ⁓ But I wanna I wanna ask you ⁓ about one thing that we didn't talk about. When you were assisting, you did a couple of movies in India, right? Including Monsoon Wedding and what were the other reshoots for ⁓ Monsoon Wedding, they actually had film damage, you know, like the X rays at the airport. They damaged ⁓ some film, which was it was hor horrible. But it gave me the opportunity I ⁓ to go and do the job with d do some of the job. I had not been available for the job. I had been working with Declan and Mira. We'd already done a movie together and so they ha you know so it was it was nice to be able to go over. ⁓ but and and it's also like one of the things I that I wanted to get into a little bit if you have time is is just some of the safety's yeah issues and stuff. ⁓ absolutely no I'm gonna ask you. Yeah and and I I just you know it's very different ⁓ people are more expendable there in a way that that ⁓ it's just different culturally, you know, and everything. But the film industry there has been there for I don't I don't I'm I wish I knew how long the film industry had been in India, but it's it's got a huge history of film industry. So they it's much so yeah so they They're they're this technicians are incredible, you know, and and they just do they just ⁓ have a different way of moving gear and moving stuff and and handling everything because it's all people based, you know, rather than because because people are inexpensive ⁓ to hire, so you just hire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and Sanjay Samy, who's ⁓ who's a key group over there, told me that also at least on ⁓ maybe on all budget movies, but at least definitely lower budget movies. Is you'll show up one day and you'll be the boom operator and you'll show up another day and you'll be the camera operator. Our our camera truck driver on Monsoon Wedding was ⁓ was also the ⁓ stunt double for the leading actress. Because he would just put a wig on, you know, and he would d drive the car, do whatever. And he was also an ⁓ you know, he he had gone to he was a a very educated electrical engineer. He could do anything. Yeah, you know, rig anything. And he would just be like, you know, if you had an issue or you needed a fuse or you needed whatever, he would be like, ⁓ I'll go down to the market tomorrow and I'll get that for you. You and he would come back with whatever, you know, from a you know, it was just incredible. So where were where were you in India for when you were filming? ⁓ for the most of most of the both of those films shot pretty much in Rajasthan because it's sort of so colorful and you know, and ⁓ that look that you know people think of it. And and was it I mean, did you show up on set and it was like, ⁓ this is a set and I know how it it it runs, or was it a completely different animal ⁓ from what you were used to? Well, Declan was the DP, so that was familiar. ⁓ the on the first job, you know, the I had it was me and I got to bring my second. And ⁓ so so that was all pretty normalized for me. But the way that we ⁓ you know, I learned a couple of things about carnas and how to how to get dear there and everything. I learned never put Israeli arms on your ⁓ carnet. ⁓ monitor arm, I don't know what you call it now, but you know. Yeah. Yeah, no, no. And ⁓ for anybody who's listening, a carnet is basically a passport for equipment which has an exhaustive list of I mean, I I know as a steady cam operator it's overwhelming when I have to create a carnet, but as an assistant, it's gotta be even more so because you have to have the the name of the thing, the serial number, how much it weighs, country of origin, yeah, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah. And and an Israeli arm is like this little I don't know, what do you it's like a an armature that you put a monitor on, but I could see how it coming through and saying Israeli arms, they're probably like, Well, we're going through every single thing in here. And when you come to it, it doesn't say Israeli arm on it, so it's not like they can find it. Yeah, there were a couple of good stories like that. But but basically the you know ⁓ I mean this is a stupid question, but is it is it sort of still broken down into like there's the grip department and the electrical department and the camera department and the sound department? Yeah, pretty much I mean, I'm sure that the the grip electric thing I wasn't paying I mean I noticed the difference more. I did two jobs in Germany and I noticed there more the difference between grip and electric than I did in India. And I don't know if that was just me not being as aware of who was in which department 'cause I was just there for the reshoots. So for that job. So I I may I mean they may have been sh functioning differently, but in in Germany it was definitely like you did not pick up the camera. I would be like fighting for the camera as a f you know, as a first assistant. Because because there's a great piece of charge. I think that's an a that's an English thing as well. So that was interesting. And and but the yeah fighting with some group over the camera. But otherwise it's very similar it was very similar for me. I didn't notice really anything and we had we had a British operator who came with us ⁓ who is originally from India and so they Yeah, I mean just everyone was so w wonderful. That crew was incredible. Fight I I have lifelong friends, you know, from the job. Yeah. ⁓ that's wonderful. That's that's that's absolutely what a what yeah, what a what a treat to be able to do so. I mean that's the best part of this business is like you pick up a phone and two weeks later you're you're going to But it's not just going it's I mean I love traveling and but I But I love working with local people from wherever you go. And to me, that's that's what's the really valuable part. You learn so much, you know, about your own biases, your own, like, ⁓ I I thought everybody did this way, or I you know, you know, the the the guys that are in in crew like didn't speak any English at all. ⁓ except I mean not I I shouldn't I should be fair. There was definitely English speakers, but the the there were a number of people in the crew that didn't and you know they they thought I spoke Hindi. Because we were talking about ge you know, we were just we were in mostly we we didn't need to say the words to know what we needed and how to communicate. And we still communicated very easily and they would they would just laugh at me because they would be like, ⁓ you know what we're saying, you know, and I'd like, No, I have absolutely no idea what you're saying. That's that's fantastic. ⁓ great. ⁓ that's that's just great. ⁓ I wanna ask you ⁓ one thing that I have on my list about You know, you've had ⁓ you have had you've had an incredible career and clearly you've worked with some really, really big name actors and some not big name actors. ⁓ do you have any advice for up and coming camera operators as to how to work with tougher actors? What what, you know, tips on endearing yourself to actors, ⁓ how to introduce yourself to act I mean, just anything because that's always I think that's one thing, you know, there's operating which is like landing a frame in the gear and But then there's the interpersonal stuff, which is tough. And and I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on that because as someone who a lot of your career was sitting at the camera three feet away from an actor who's in a you know love scene or something like that. So different from as a as an operator and as a focus puller, 'cause as a focus puller I spent my entire I mean, especially sitting next to the camera, not when I because it you know, because I was so close, I spent my whole career being invisible, trying to wear a cloak of darkness, you know, just not just be there but not not not have them Acknowledge me because How do you do that? What what how do you do that? I just I would just like avert you know, I it was not like I was averting my eyes, but it just was like it wasn't like telling jokes and being very boisterous and loud and whatever. I would just be very respectful, you know? And and I feel like as an operator, I'm having I'm having to do something that that Michael Bauhaus actually taught me, which is all like to be sel self aware enough that you're not so focused on your job that you're that you that you always say hello and you always smile like when you first see someone in the day and you just make that initial contact instead of just being buried in your work and thinking, ⁓ how am I gonna do this and what's gonna happen you know and and and just being business oriented, you know? Like they really appreciate appreciate it if you're if you ⁓ just Yeah, you're a human being but but also not I don't know. I I also grew up I grew up on a you know in a resort island where we had famous people there all the time and we always prided ourselves in in treating like them like normal people and then like so I kind of grew up with that sense that you don't you don't go, ⁓ my god, you're so and so or you know, you just treat people like normal people. I mean it's im it's kind of like there's that awkward point where You're trying to treat someone like a normal person, but you can't actually say, Well, how's your family or how's it going? You know, you're like, I can't actually talk to you about anything I would normally talk to some anybody about. But I can still treat you. Well, it it's funny you say that because some of the best conversations I've had with big name actors and actresses have been those normal conversations. But I it's but but it's not because I've gone up and gone, hey, let me ask you a question that might seem like prying into your life. It's like I've said something to the assistant about my daughter and someone's been standing nearby and be like, ⁓ yeah, my kid plays soccer too. And it's like, ⁓ yeah, really, what do you do? And and then and then you're talking you're not talking to so and so who won an Academy Award. You're talking to a parent as another parent and suddenly there's a connection there, you know? So so so but again I think it comes back to like you were saying, you treat them like human beings. And how was your weekend? And how was it you know, just like kind of bringing it back into Yeah. Yeah. And it's it is it is very funny because it that you said that because I have noticed before that and I don't know whether I've ever consciously did this, but I've noticed that I don't do it, is I won't say to an actor like a a name actor, like, Did you do anything good this weekend? Because it it's sort of going, you know, I don't know what big party you went to or whatever. But But I will say, hey, how would how did you have a good weekend? How or how was your weekend? Or you know, you know, did did you get some rest or something you know, something like that that's innocuous. And and yeah, again, I th it is a weird fine line because the thing is, the reality and and having known some people personally who who are larger actors, everybody seems to want something and and they're on their guard for that. So the more you can sort of passively show that that's not what you're about, you're just like, Look, you're a person and I'm I think like using someone's name Really important. ⁓ really I'm terrible with names. So it plagued me my entire career. And so I it and and you know, if I struggle with someone's name, it's especially if they're an actor. I mean, come on. That's like it it you know, that's the worst worst possible thing. Yeah. I know your name's Bono, but I can't remember Bono. That's exactly right. And actually I definitely remember times on on ⁓ on on ⁓ happy ish. When you know, eight episodes in, you and I'd both be on the camera and be What is that actor's name? Like, I don't know, they both be like wrestling through because neither. Someone just taught me something that's really ⁓ that the operator I'm working with with right now taught me something that I will take away forever. ⁓ which is a way ⁓ you know, is to s write the stand-ins names, write the names on a piece like on your call sheet, on anything. Just write that use your hand. And write it with with a pen, you know, not on your phone and not whatever. And do that every morning so that they're just you know, gets to that part of your brain. Really smart. Yeah, no, that's there's a lot to that. It's ⁓ I don't know, mechanical or whatever. Well ⁓ my I know my my my folks taught me that when I was a kid, that when I used to study they were like, Write write the notes that you need to know because for some reason it there's a There's more visceral remember re memory of that. ⁓ but that's I I've done that, but I don't do it every morning and maybe I should because I'm Well, that's what I was thinking, right? Yeah. I I I don't it's it's I want to get into the habit of doing that. And it's Well, and the sh the show I'm on right now, we literally have a cast of like twenty five people. And so it's not even like the the it's not even like, you know, the show where it's six people and they're in every day. Like we won't see someone for a week and a half, and I'm like I gotta figure out who that is again. And so ⁓ yeah, you come up with all sorts of and and I'm looking at my sides quite a bit. you mentioned safety and I wanna I wanna bring bring that back to around to that. ⁓ you were the chair of local six hundred safety committee until you decided it was time to step aside and then guilted me into becoming the chair of the local six hundred safety committee. ⁓ which I appreciate and ⁓ was I understand why, you know, it's a tough job. ⁓ but just talk to me about, yeah, safety and also just working, you know, working for the union. 'Cause how many years were you on the board of the union? ⁓ I don't know. I'm terrible with years, but it was I basic I think I was about I think I was I started out you know, I would go to meetings and stuff just as a member, but then I started I I my first step was becoming the recording secretary of the Eastern Region and then ⁓ and then I became the ⁓ vice president, you know. ⁓ of the eastern region, which then makes you the first vice president of the national ⁓ once we merged. So so that and I did that I only I was that three years as as vice president, probab I guess another three years or I can't remember if I did the recording secretary one three year cycle or two. ⁓ though ⁓ Would you would you suggest for younger people to I tell people all the time that a lot of my work comes from from my involvement with the union. Just know I mean the D Ps that I know now. The DP I know them from from them being active union members, you know, and and them getting to know me that way and and just me as a person, you know? And just that social networking and stuff. And also just because you really bond, you know. over issues and and working together and collaborating and they can trust you if someone were if you're collaborating with someone over something as complex as democracy, you know, and politics and a and a labor union is probably the most democratic organization in this country, you know, ⁓ then you're you're you know you can do that on a set, you know? And you but it's just also a familiar face. And I and I tell people all the time, it's it's networking, it's it get out there and You'll meet people you don't know. You'll also the people who tend to be involved with politics of the union are usually people I respect a great deal personally. Like they're just people who have ethics and things that I they're people I want to work with, you know, in general. Well, 'cause they're willing to take a stand and do something as opposed to any the other thing about being involved in the union is it's just fun. There's no stress. There's no there's no points where you're frustrated at all. Right? It's just a big party. No, I only I don't I don't say that against our union, I say it probably against any is like when you get a group of people who are committing. Well I wanted I I mean Yeah, the reason I wanted to get involved in union stuff was because I ⁓ again grew up in a political family. I've you know, I felt this need to do something and I just didn't have the time to do it outside of work. And I thought, well, if I'm gonna be involved, ⁓ I want I want to understand politics on a on on something that I really care about, that really affects me, you know, and it and and why not do it on something that that really does ⁓ you know affect the quality of life and the quality of our jobs. And and it really helps helped me understand ⁓ how complex and tough that is and how how hard it is to get anything done because because like like you know we we show up, we do our jobs, we get a van, we do whatever, you know, we're we're basically don't have to run our lives very much when we're on a job, you know. It's kind of all set up for you know, you get fed, you can do whatever, you know, all that stuff. You just you just and so it having to actually make change, like some of the safety bulletins and things that we were able to actually change and put into effect that never existed before, that process is so large. And understanding the complexity of that and how things get done, it was so encouraging to me, not discouraging, it's surprisingly, because when you don't understand how it gets done, it's just frustrating. And you're just like, why aren't things better? Or why isn't this changing? And then when you get involved, you start to understand, ⁓ it involves negotiating or it involves like to get a safety bulletin made, which is an industry standard, you know, right, industry standard of safety. It it has to be agreed upon by the producers, the you know, Callo show, whatever, you know, and and and all of the unions, you know, and everybody has to to find wording that they accept. And that I don't think a I didn't understand that before. I didn't I just thought, ⁓ there's just this roster system out there. There's this thing of safety that just applies to the West Coast or whatever. But it's there's so much more than that. And I and I think being able to be part of that i is very valuable. I I recommend it. I couldn't recommend it more highly to any member just to go through it to experience it. You know, it it's it doesn't you know, it may be painful on a a c you know, a level of of of challenging your self awareness and your ability to communicate with other people, but it it it it's not gonna hurt you, you know, in any way. No, and it i in in and for anyone ⁓ listening who well, first of all, I think the the the the easy thing to say is if you're in the local, ⁓ you know, there's monthly meetings in each of the regions and you can go and sit in those those meetings. I I don't know specific to each region, you may have to call ahead of time and tell them you're coming or something to that effect. But ⁓ everybody's welcome and ⁓ and encouraged and actually, I guess potentially even obligated, but I'm not sure. There's also I think there's you know, the structure of the union changes constantly ⁓ you know, over time. You know, so it's there are times where, you know, we've gone through periods where the union has been sort of top down and we've also gone through periods where it's been much more open to, you know, ⁓ I mean and it and it's partly just the fact that our members are so busy. The working members can't don't have the time and so it needs to have a structure, it needs to have a top down nature to it. Exactly. Yeah, which is why you also need a lot of people involved because sometimes look, I haven't been to the last two ⁓ national meetings just because I haven't been able to Well and that's where COVID really helped us, I think, because we were able to do stuff ⁓ virtually and so people didn't have to you know, it saves you all that transportation time. Yep, yep, no question. So t tell me about you know, safety and ⁓ and and maybe talk about the operator's job or not job, but involvement in that. Well you taught me a lot. I wanna say that, you know, you about making sure that you ⁓ voice to your crew out loud. Not just like, ⁓ they must know that I'm you know, whatever but you actually ⁓ when you first get together you say, I I will look at you know, I'm here to look out for your safety if you need any help or need someone to stand up for you. ⁓ and and I care whether you get home at night and I care you know, that you get food and that you're, you know, that you're safe. And so if you have any concerns, you know, the door's open. And and, you know, I've been through stuff before. I you know, I may not know how to solve this problem, but I'm willing to work with you know, to to support you and and Yeah. That's what I always try to tell people is look, I'm not an expert by any means. I mean, maybe I know a little bit more because I've been involved in the safety committee and we've probably talked about it more or whatever. But ⁓ but the bigger thing is like, you know, ⁓ part of part of having any job where you're moving up in in the ranks is is that you accept some responsibility. And and the last thing I always am afraid of is that someone, a PA or someone who doesn't who's like, ⁓ I don't want to make any noise, i is actually afraid of a safety, you know, has a safety concern. Well one of the things we talked about a lot when on the safety committee, you know, is how do we change the culture on our sets? Kind of like we have been changing with diversity and with with, you know, me too and everything else. Like w w for everybody. I'm not just talking about, you know, me t when I say me too, for me it's it's not just women, it's everybody being able to say, you know, that that that we're all equal and that we all should be respected. And and so, you know, when people talk about safety, it's it there is a culture on our sets where you're not allowed to talk about it. And so ⁓ just having the safety meeting every day, doing that kind of stuff. It it's you know, a lot of people I hear this all the time and you know, like, well, ⁓ it's just a lia covering liabilities. If they say we're responsible, you know, if they you know, we don't w they want to put that on us now. They want us to, you know, police that ourselves or whatever. And I and I I always say now, and I feel this I believe in this so strongly that it's not it is there is a f that is a factor. Liability is a factor, of course. We're you know, of course. But that is not to me the most important factor. The most important factor for me is that it is being talked about out loud on set in the same way that you talk to your crew or whatever. It's on the table. If one person if it's talked about, then it is no longer taboo. And it is something that it gives one step closer to each member feeling crew member feeling like they can say something. Yeah, and and one of the one of the other things it's well, like you said, it's about creating an atmosphere and an environment where you can speak up. But the other thing is is and some people don't recognize this is the the the employer's obligation is to is to have a safe working environment. And what I always tell people is you could say that they're completely insincere. I actually don't think that they are. I mean maybe they they'd they'd like to look away from some things, but in the end I think most of them do. But the thing is We're the people in the working environment. So if we don't bring something up, they may l legitimately not know about it, even if we feel they should. So so I what I always tell people is it's not it's not about their obligation to us. I mean that doesn't change, but we have to give them the feedback in order to to to do something. And yeah, it may be a thorn in the side. But the other thing that I like about especially the safety meetings, and yes, people do poo-poo them, ⁓ is nine times out of ten, an AD will say something. To the effect of look, if you have a problem, please let me know. And so then you now have the opening where if you go to them and they go, ⁓ don't bring this to me, you go, No, no, no. You just said to me that if we have a problem, so I'm doing that, you know. So it it again, to me that's ⁓ that's obligation. But on that note, you and I had ⁓ happy ish was one of one of my personal I I I I view happy ish from the safety things that we did on that show. as a complete and utter win across the board. Do you wanna ⁓ you wanna tell people what what we came up with? And I think it just came up with you and I having a conversation about why like don't we all we were talking about why why don't we yeah I think I think the culture has changed enough that maybe people aren't as familiar that that if the the situation we were in hopefully isn't the same. And and that is this that the they would only do safety meetings if there was a stunt or if there was a you know and it was kind of like the because I mean There's two things about safety. One is that we you want people to be able to talk talk about safety and you want people to be able to bring things up, but that's the worst case scenario. You know, you want people to be prepared weeks before for any situation that might be dangerous, so that you don't even have to have that conversation on the set. It's the worst case scenario that you're dealing with on the in the moment on the set, and that's when accidents and horrible things happen, right? And so we were we were talking, you know, we how A D is back then, now I mean I've the last few sets I've been on. The eighties every day have a safety meeting because as we know there are different actors there every day, there's different background there every day, even if you're on a stage. You know, everyone needs to know where the you know, everything is but there was a lot of resistance and that's also before the eighties had more safety language in their contracts, which they they are now responsible more officially responsible for more things. So th there has been some change. But on that job with you, they were not doing safety meetings every day. And they were they there was There was like stuff in the fire lane all the time. There was things that were concerning that just weren't being taken seriously. And and I remember we went to the AD and and we're like, I know it's really boring to have to stay at the safety meeting every day. Like, what can we do to make it less you know, like if you don't want to do it every day, we're we're what if we did it? What if we got a crew member to do it every day? To just anybody you know, we we'd we'd we'd find one person, it wouldn't just be like, who wants to do it? you know. It would be we'd find someone who would do it and we'd give them a little cheat sheet. We'd you know, what are the points we need to say? So we all had to learn that, you know. And then we would find someone and was it was so not it it took on like a a quality that I never would have expected at all. I it took on a life of its own. It was amazing. Well, by the way, what I remember is when we when you and I well for there's a couple of things I want to back up on. First of all, the reason why I think this whole thing happened was because You were standing next to the camera and I was on the camera. You were not off in some other room. And that's actually sometimes when this conversation started. So just on that note. But I remember we went to the AD and I think it was a woman, I can't remember. But I think one of the things that she said to us, which made us start thinking along those lines, was look, every time we're on stage, it's the exact same thing. And I just drone on and on and nobody listens. And part of what I'm always worried about is like I want them to listen. So if I do it the same thing every day. And then I think you and I went back and were like, well what other people Yeah, and also 'cause it w felt like the if if our goal is to make it po okay for people to talk about safety, why don't we start with something really safe, like a script that everyone and then share it. And it turned into this thing, you know, where not only were people from different departments like ⁓ taking it and owning it, it was so empowering. It was incredible. But also people got really creative with it. Remember our sound mixer, she she sang it? Right? She has an opera, you know? I just I just interviewed J Jen and I have the video which I have to mention. Yeah, like it was amazing. And then and then we also had but we also had day players like like ⁓ special effects guys or or or ⁓ stunt people or different people who who actually wanted to do it and they would tell stories. So it wasn't just they would do the script, but they would also say, And like my brother, you know, got killed on whatever, you know, and it I remember that by the way, I remember that very specifically. He was a he was a special effects guy who was with us for like two days. And he heard it and he came up and he asked maybe you or maybe me, ⁓ what is this? And we told him and he said, Could I do it tomorrow? And we tell and then he got up and he said, you know, and the one thing is, you know, don't drive home tired because I think it was his brother or his brother in law he said, you know, did that and didn't make it home. And I remember it there was like silence. And if ever and it was so impactful. And I think I vaguely remember him saying something to the effect of I don't really discuss this, but I'm so impressed with what you're doing. And I remember thinking like this. Well then we had a really long day. And and remember one of the PA's like, you know, was like we we were all looking so everyone then made more of an effort every time we had long days or did anything with travel. No question. You remember I think the last day. Do you remember the the the the four P They like beatbox? Yeah, the whole yeah, like those little things. That was amazing. Amazing. I wish we had that on video. It's okay, but but for anybody who's listening, actually I should it is worth mentioning that on any day where there was an actual stunt or there was an actual this or the the the first day D did did the safety meeting. It was on sort of the quote unquote boring days. But I remember one of the first I think you may have done the first one, and I remember very specifically, because I didn't know this, that you you kinda went through the thing and you said and this and that and you said, you know, when we're on the stage and I just wanna explain why the fire lanes are important, because if there is a fire and if there's smoke and you can't see You feel your way to the outside wall and then you have to feel along the wall to get to the exits. But if there's stuff in the way, there's gonna be a pile up. So you have to keep it clear. And I went, I never thought about it. That's amazing. ⁓ and then the other part of the whole thing that I remember ⁓ I don't remember whether you came up with it or I went up with came up with it, but one of us was up in the production office and they and you know, we're never up in the production office or I'm never up in the pr and they have that board of like, you know, call and lunch and first shot or whatever. And I just went to the UPM and I said, Could we put safety meeting up there? And you mark down the time and she said, Why? And I said, Because then it becomes something that's important, that gets reported, that has to be done. And someone can look and go, Wait, did was a safety meeting? Just like you'll go, Did they break for lunch, you know, or whatever? And they did that. And I thought that was so great. And it was just it was it was an amazing thing to be a part of. I was and I have not either and I have tried. And it's I don't know, Dave. I wonder. Like I always go, what was it about that? You know, the fact that the I think it I think it's that thing that they they taught us at at in just ⁓ you know in union school, which is ⁓ it's not the first person that leads the movement, it's the second person who joins the dance. It is, it is no question. I think I think the fact that we were we were sort of sort of tag teaming pushing it forward, but also it was a wacky group of people. Yeah that didn't hurt things. ⁓ but ⁓ yeah, I I tell that story quite often and I think I you know, I think it made people think It definitely was the I mean the atmosphere on that job, which I again, like you said, I haven't really experienced it since then, is that people talked about safety without there was no stigma to it. None at all. And we were all allowed to care for each other and care about each other. Exactly. And we and we and because it created an atmosphere that It wasn't threatening to production. It wasn't threatening to the producers. They wanted to know. You know? And and for the most part, as I remember, it wasn't hard once it got going and they understood it. It wasn't hard to find people to do it. Like people wanted to do it. And it was ⁓ yeah, it was ⁓ that was a pretty cool, cool, cool thing. ⁓ well listen, this has been this has been fantastic. ⁓ I wanna thank you for doing this, for all the stories, for all the tips for Everything it's and it's always fun to talk to you. You we're on separate coasts, so we don't get to work together as much as I would like to, but maybe one of these days. ⁓ but the thing I leave everybody with ⁓ sort of in closing is to take us out. ⁓ any tips you have for someone getting in the business today, for someone trying to get into operating for Heather Norton twenty years ago from Heather Norton today. ⁓ you have any thoughts? I think ⁓ I went to this thing at the DGA theater and And it was ⁓ this woman ⁓ who was ⁓ she's she's a creator who's mostly a documentary ⁓ filmmaker. ⁓ she did ⁓ The Queen of Versailles and some pretty high profile one about Emil DeMarcos ⁓ recently ⁓ that are large, large documentaries, scale documentaries. But she does also commercials on the side to to do ⁓ to to make to pay the bills, you know, and she's the one who created the ⁓ Like a Girl campaign like Grow like a girl, do whatever, like a you know, whatever. And so sh her advice to young directors and people getting into the business was find your voice, you know, and and then the rest will happen. Because and and and I thought about that because it was very moving, first of all, but also like when I took the local six hundred operator course, ⁓ which is really like a a C camera operator course, you know, it's not not like the SoC stuff, which is much more oriented to towards A camera skills and B camera skills. ⁓ but they would have people come in and talk about their stories and they always talked about where they came from, like whether it was music videos or or whatever drew them into the business and what what where they're made them want to do more. And and I think that the confidence you need to be able to to do it. comes from being able to connect with the material that you're working with personally on whatever level and and someone else said to me recently that ⁓ this was actually Reid Morano and it she didn't say it to me but I heard it at at ⁓ one of her events and she said that ⁓ it's like operating is like you're you're like one of the actors in a scene. You know, that you're there and you're reacting and you're present in a way that that is is like you're an actor on the set with them. And and that really spoke to me because for me, you know, I started out in theater. I always feel very sympathetic with the actors. I always feel very connected to them. And I hadn't clicked that. It hadn't clicked for me yet until I heard her say that. And I was like, yeah, that's it. That's that's what why I'm there. You know? And I think we all have to feel like there's a reason that we're there as an individual and part of that group. and whether you end up being operator or whatever whatever you end up doing, you know, that's I'd I don't like looking at the very hierarchical camera department as as a necessary stepping stone that you have to go from one thing to the next. And and so, you know, when I talk to young people now, it's like A lot of them are already shooting stuff, a lot of them are already doing all that and and a lot of a lot of the you know, you'll you'll you end up talking to someone who's like a grain tech or you know, doing something and they they've shot tons of stuff. But this is what they're doing now, you know, and they're bringing their knowledge. You know? so I think it's just about looking for the opportunities, making sure you aren't so busy that you don't have free you know have some ability to step on onto the opportunities when they come and and hopefully when they come you can bring that thing that makes you, you know, your own your have your your own self that that's the most valuable thing you can bring. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on the op.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.